Indian Elephant Archers in Pro Game
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- Опубліковано 8 чер 2020
- Indian Elephant Archers have always been seen as an underwhelming unit in competitive play, and while they can be tanky have always been quite expensive. In the recent update they are now cheaper and here Barles tries them out against Britons as they are played to their full potential.
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➣ / t90official
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This video was created under Microsoft's "Game Content Usage Rules" using assets from Age of Empires II: Definitive Edition, © Microsoft Corporation. - Ігри
The elephants should have way more range imo. After all they *are* like 8ft in the air on an elephant, you think that would improve their range!
yah was thinking the same thing! but i guess if you use a crap bow, you could sit on the head of a giraffe and still hit yourself in the knee. :)
@@Loke4000aka2670 even if you use crap bow still the height advantage should be given just like cliffs gives bonus damage
Reduce food cost to 80, increase range by 1, increase speed by 0.1, and reduce the upgrade cost to 800F and 700G (cost of 10 Elephant Archers using the new price, same ratio as the old upgrade cost). Alternately, allow it to fire while moving and to target three different units with three arrows (lowering its base damage if necessary for balance), but unable to focus fire all three shots on one unit. Turns them into mobile suppressive fire towers.
@@Loke4000aka2670 But if you can afford to provide your archer with an elephant, then you probably can afford to provide him with a good bow. Also in India bows were the weapon of nobility, as far as I know. )
just +1 range on elite would be enough
Elephant Archers have no role. They're slow, so no good for raiding or forcing engagements. They have short range so no sniping against enemy archers. They get just as countered by siege and monks as normal elephants, except they hit like a wet noodle so even if they get in range they don't decimate everything like War Elephants or Battle Elephants do. They get countered by spears cause they're slow and mounted, they get countered by skirms because they're slow and archers, they get countered by camels because they're slow and cavalry, they get countered by siege because they're slow, they get countered by monks because they're slow and short range. There is virtually no situation where there's a use for them. Even if you've parked a castle in front of the enemy's only exit out of their base (not that a map like that exists) and you're trebbing them down, there are better units to hold a position with than Elephant Archers. You can tweak the numbers however you want, outside of them suddenly dealing twice the damage, having more range, or being faster/unconvertable, there's little fixing them. A redesign is needed.
Also I haven't played AoE2 in 15 years and all my opinions are based on pure conjecture.
The thing is with this unit is that either it's gonna be too OP or plain trash
Elephant archer's best role is being a damage sponge like a ram, except they actually damage units.
@@AlphaSquadZero They should swap them out for a cannon elephant. They could keep them tanky, do high damage, and splash damage but give them a slow firing rate but around the same speed range as a spearman or halb, making them not ideal for dealing with enemy units directly and/or on their own. Think, mobile bombard tower and you get the picture.
They aren’t even a great damage sponge though, except against archers. skirms, halbs, and camels. It takes longer for an elephant archer to kill a halberdier than it does for a halb to kill the elephant.
That disclaimer in the end killed me. :) Well, hopefully you stayed at a Holiday Inn last night! :)
Just put extra archers on the elephant's back and let it either attack much faster or shoot 2 (3?) full damage arrows at once. That would turn them into a slow-moving juggernaut with low-range and high damage potential.
Yeah. Coz 2-3 people can sit on a elephant.
garrisoning ranged units on elephant archers would be cool
@@LOLHICRONO no theyd be way too strong in late game. What makes them bad is how easily they're countered. Maybe give them a big bonus against halbs? That way they can take on fair fights and actually give value.
0:11 the scout does moonwalk.
Ty my brother
that just hit the spot
thanks m8 :)
much appreciated
hee hee
OMG at 0:11 the scout is moonwalking (look at the topleft corner)!
Hes got the moves
"British Elephant Archers" ...well, he's in the imperial age, historically accurate.
11 wp
makes sense. only thats like aoe3 territory chronologically.
British Rule on India isn't medieval
@@arnavvaidya3910 It is imperial though
@@arjunsatheesh7609 AOE2 is medieval game. AOE3 is colonial
So you're telling me the indian UU is less irrelphant now?
I'm going to find you....
If T90 made that joke, he'd been down by 7k subs from what he has now
@@martijn9568 But he would've got my love(no homo).
@@satyakisil9711 ahhhh you sure? no "homo" what so ever?
Bruhhh Aoe2....toAge of Empires: Definitive Edition india is useless faction no range no cav no war elephants pretty stereotype🙄.
Age of Empires: 3 game dev "oh
india pump elephants ...no artillery no horse cav .
2:54 that was straight up a personal attack on me right now
I was actually trying to fall asleep listening to you but when you said that you know that someone’s trying to fall asleep I just couldn’t stop laughing 11 (still need to sleep tho)
Glad I'm not the only person who did this 😂
*sleeping gang unites*
I laughed at that too but I still managed to fall asleep 11
Update: I slept like a baby. It was wonderful S/O to T90
Smae same
Horse at 0:10 lol
Never Gets old
Amazing, saw it too
Would have liked to see some Indian monks in the mix: keep those elephants’ HP topped-up, and the option to re-convert them back as the Briton monks are reloading.
Indian monks are really good
@T90Official you stopped talking about individual players' maps and layouts, tbh I miss that because it really helped me as a noob learn how to read the maps and how to prioritize my resources. Please bring it back! I hope it helped others like myself!
I miss it too! It’s just not important on half the campy maps in the map pool. 😥
@@T90Official lmao damn t90 take it easy on your own viewers wew
I do wish the Elephant archer had one more range since they have higher elevation. But im glad they elephant archer got love this patch
That makes sense
When he was fighting with his elephant archers he was still missing the last armor upgrade. He also never got parthian tactics.
If he had all those upgrades fully upgraded Arbalest would only deal 1 damage per shot against them. So 300 shots to kill non elite ones.
Sadly we never got to see that.
I was about to fall asleep until you mentioned pumpernickel... T90 you are such a tease! :C
Would love to see those big boi Elephantos in a pro game. Thank you T90, please upload more such games. Your videos are keeping me as well as many others sane during this quarantine L
yeah we saw that Barles doesn't know where to use it.
I'm just going to say I've never had afternoon naps so good until I started watching your videos! TY!
Needs buff to conversions. Otherwise, it's a slow moving low range archer... High hp don't matter to monk
A buff to range would be more thematic.
Yup, much higher resistance to conversion maybe wouldn't have won this match, but it would have definitely made a big difference. The thing with conversions is that it is a HUGE HP swing. I would say high conversion resistance, and +1 range. They still wouldn't be "great", but that would make them a solid defense unit, while still kinda sucking for offense due to speed.
18:00 THANK YOU I was screaming at the screen for like 3 minutes that he needed a monk to heal that oliphaunt.
T90 every time you talk about elephants in a video, you have to put an elephant fact, so here is one for you: -The word “elephant” comes from the Greek word “elephas” which means “ivory”.
The Greeks invented words.
Their lack of speed and range is really tough on them. Maybe that's just extra highlighted versus British range.
I think they should get 5 base range. It makes no sense for them to be so short when the archer sitting on top of a massive elephany.
My thought is that maybe they should replace the archer with a hand cannon :) tanker, slower Conqs
Reduce food cost to 80, increase range by 1, increase speed by 0.1, and reduce the upgrade cost to 800F and 700G (cost of 10 Elephant Archers using the new price, same ratio as the old upgrade cost). Alternately, allow it to fire while moving and to target three different units with three arrows (lowering its base damage if necessary for balance), but unable to focus fire all three shots on one unit. Turns them into mobile suppressive fire towers.
@@GoddessOfTheWinds Higher range would slightly cover that weakness so that they can at least fire at the incoming monks instead of just showing them their huge @sses as they awkwardly try to turn tail and run!
@@GoddessOfTheWinds I think the idea behind the lower range was that they would sit slightly ahead of your own archers, thereby tanking fire for them. Kinda like rams, except these rams actually dish out some damage of their own too. It makes sense in a pitched battle and with a mixed force of archers, however it just falls apart when the battle is more mobile and/or the elephants are on their own.
Me: trying to fall asleep.
T90: Pumpernickel
did i miss that pumpernickel joke?
I had a few ideas to make Elephant Archers better
1 Maybe make them able to shoot while walking (this one sounds the most op)
2 Maybe increase their LOS by a ton
3 Make it so that if they are getting attacked by multiple melee units they deal a small amount of trample damage
4 Put 2 archers on the elephant so they fire 2 arrows at once potentially at multiple targets.
Possible give them a bonus against monks? (That’s what i feel is this worst idea)
I know that most of those sound over powered but they can always increase their cost in exchange for the buff.
Barles needed to have more light cav in the first engagement to take the advantage but he had only a few . That cost him the game .
Tough with the ele food cost. I think he should have realised that he didn't need to go up that fast and should have had 60-70 farmers by the time he reached IMP.
Spending that much food on a slow unit that can't raid really limits when they are useful. I think if they had a movement tech, an increased range tech, or elite cost less; any of those would make them more worth it more often.
When you started doing math about trying to figure out how many elephant archers you could get out with the gold in your base, it's a little more complicated. You have to include the gold cost of all of the upgrades you need to get to make them worth anything. Even if you're trying to push to the middle in Castle Age, Castle age is 200, bodkin arrows, fletching, armor upgrades, bloodlines and Ballistics = that adds up to 775 gold just in castle Age, not to mention all of the other resources that go into those things. 4800-775=4025/70=57.5. So if you spent gold on nothing but these upgrades and Elephants Archers, you could make 57, ASSUMING you are staying in Castle Age.
Back in the day when I played AoC just against the AI I had a Savegame called 'The 10-hour war' and it wasn't even a real war...
Just played the standard AI and wanted to clear the complete map of just everything, including boar, trees, deer, berries, everything!
Yeah... No hobbies...
But that is what i call a long game 🤷♂️😂
Tristan I only fall asleep to your videos sometimes. I also enjoy watching them awake, I haven't played AoE in over 20 years. You're the best, please keep posting to UA-cam also!
I'm glad that this UU is finally buffed.
the backwards running red scout at the start...LOL
37:12 that stone difference is actually a common bug, and it's super frustrating since you may be missing just that 1 stone for a castle, it happens on all maps afaik
Yay-oh-men. YAY-OH-MEN!?!?! This anti-welsh speak is making me mad!
iuhofaohwfgohwgrw4t9pj9qFiolj
is that better welsh for you?
@@jackalope_hunter not enough y's
It's "yo-men", right? That's how I've always heard it said.
@@cracklingvoice Yeah. Etymology I think is it's a shortening of "your men" with a Welsh accent.
2:50 I feel personally attacked 😩
Looking forward for the „longest game“ (until T90 finds another one). Now I know where I will spend holidays this year.
13:36 The most relatable to a pro player i have ever felt.
I've watched that long vid in the course of about a week. Would love to chime in live for the next one!
22:46 Huszars riding downhill for the big battle! _Barles_ at keeping up good old polish traditions! :D
(if he only won that one...)
2:50 made me lift my sleeping mask to inform you that it made me chuckle. Almost too loudly to not wake up my gf.
...I hear your voice in my sleep......
13:34 For Hera’s level of play, I would believe if he were intentionally building the houses that way to provide a defensive huddling spot for his archers.
>Trying to fall asleep to this
I feel called out
I play as Indians pretty frequently and never make the elephant archers. They move too slowly and their attack isn’t that impressive. My death ball consists of camels, hand cannoneers, and bombard cannons.
Weak to monks.
Weak to pikes.
Weak to skirmishers.
Weak to camels.
Weak to knights.
Weak to longer-range archer units.
Weak to defensive buildings.
Strong against... umm...
Reduce food cost to 80, increase range by 1, increase speed by 0.1, and reduce the upgrade cost to 800F and 700G (cost of 10 Elephant Archers using the new price, same ratio as the old upgrade cost). Alternately, allow it to fire while moving and to target three different units with three arrows (lowering its base damage if necessary for balance), but unable to focus fire all three shots on one unit. Turns them into mobile suppressive fire towers.
@@meatmachine144 They're not weak to knights or defensive buildings...
They could give them a higher conversion resistance to make it somewhat harder to counter. As you said, if the cost is reduced too much it might disrupt the balance in low level games where people don't pick the right counter.
Question T90, since we saw quite a few turks in the BoA3 and you did a video on them a few weeks back what changes do you think they should get to make them more competitive?
"Some of you are just trying to fall asleep to this so I can say whatever I want" You got me good, i laughed so hard im awake. Take my like comment and sub. well played sir.
I wanna see a ffa regicide game with the top players make it happen T90!
I think the Elephant Archer needs to be buffed, but I think making them cheap isn't the right way to go. They need to be made strong enough to justify a high cost somehow
Wasn't planning to fall asleep to it. But tried it after you suggested it and it works really well.
For Indian Elephants; Maybe 1 more range, 10food cost reduced. But new mechanics proposed by Mendicant Bias
"to be able to shoot 3 arrows to 3 diff units. (unable to hit 3 arrows to one unit)"
that moonwalking scout tho @ 0:10
I'm not gonna lie... Sometimes I fall sleep watching your videos (6am rn) but i always try to watch it all hahahahaha
If he had added Monks to the build to reconvert converted elephant archers would that have worked? 1-3 conversions at a time arent that big a deal since they do so little damage as long as you are able to get them back.
Yeah I'm one of those people that falls asleep to your voice. It's really soothing, especially when you say 'OH MY GOD...NO...WHY....WHY...etc!
Whoop whoop! Moonwalking scout from barles at the beginning.
0:10-0:13
Everytime T90 says "maybe" I think of Louis CK's Maybe-joke
make the elephantos able to fire while moving and +1 range (elevation helps in range combat). That would make them at least a decent unit.
0:11 and that's what we like to call a moon walk.
woke, up at 4am...saw this video...decided this was the one to go to sleep too...get shamed for it
Pumpernickel is a typically heavy, slightly sweet rye bread traditionally made with sourdough starter and coarsely ground rye. It is often made today with a combination of flour made from rye as well as whole rye grains.
In comparison to a slice of white bread which provides 83 calories and 15.5 gm of carbohydrates, a slice of pumpernickel bread provides a total of approx. 65 calories, which is less than those in an apple and about 12.35 gram of carbohydrates with 0.8 gram of heart-healthy monounsaturated and polyunsaturated fats.
how you stack the units so close like hera did with arbalests?
We need elephant hand canoneers in the next expansion :)
IIRC, Slam (successfully!) used Elephant Archers vs. Britons on Ghost Lake during one of the Escape Tournaments.
The only problem with elephant archers is that virtually every unit counters them.
I was a sleep by 2mins last night and now today at 3mins you talk about ppl sleeping omg to funny 😂, thanks so much for the amazing UA-cam content
I consider myself to be a high grade noob, and I think that elephant archers are both situational, and a great noob unit. You need something in front to protect from halbs, but they are a lot more resistant to onagers, so with enough of them, it's easier to steamroll your opponent. But that's the problem, if you have enough of them. It costs so much to get a critical mass, and if you're skilled, there's probably better things you can do with those resources. Here are a couple experiences I had fighting against EA and using EA.
I was fighting an Indian AI, saw elephants, and thought "I'll just use halbs. After all, everyone says those units are worthless; the halbs couldn't touch them.
I was Indians and I was being attacked by Vietnamese archers, halbs and onagers. Foot archers wouldn't cut it, the halbs would kill any cavalry that would try to kill the onagers, and infantry couldn't get close. What unit do I have that can take onager fire while destroying the onagers at the same time? I would not have won that engagement without elephant archers.
So maybe they need to be buffed, but they cannot be an easy unit to balance.
I also wish they could double as a melee unit because they're not doing anything with their face, unlike the other elephant units. I don't really want that to happen though.
Yes-- I do always fall asleep to this.
Scout walks backwards at 0:12
Elephant archers costing food is their biggest weakness compared to other ranged units. Food is constantly in demand through the whole game and not using food for archers is a big advantage but elephant archer doesn't have that. Same thing about Ballista elephant vs. other siege units.
War wagon is very similar to elephant archer but it costing wood is a huge advantage. It also has 1 more range.
horsie went backwards right at the start XD
I think they need something more special. Either more "armour" vs monks or significantly reduced bonus damage from spearline.
I watched this game live, Big fan of the Champion tech switch
If my memory is correct, they could have two archers on top. That could come with the elite upgrade, getting two archers for each elephant.
i think devs should make any elephants very resistant to conversions like siege weapons for instance. without this we won’t ever see eles in 1v1 games, it’s so annoying to fight vs monks with them
should we see them in 1v1 unless its a steamroll?
@@ashmonkey2572 if they were monk resistant it would change meta a bit I think. Even persians could have added a few eles to their army
I'm in the middle of sleeping and this man just calls me out
The buff was good, but I think it needs a little more to see good use. An idea I don't see happening but would be cool is if they turn it into a fast fire archer tank with two archers on the elephant alternating fire. That way they are costly but would have more damage overall + be better against high pierce armor units.
Giving them range would be interesting (though that seems even less likely) since historically the Indians used a longbow long before the English
Hey T90, the game which you're talking about in the beginning, I think it was Nicov v. Lierry, Nicov was using Indians and the Elephant Archers.
how did he know im trying to sleep to this?
What would updating the EA to be able to fire while moving? helps counter their slow mobility and makes them more interesting
I think they could use some additional range or power as well as made cheaper. Preferably more damage and cheaper. Since you need to get so close, being able to actually do come damage would be nice.
00:10 t90blind moonwalking scout in the upper left corner
100% agree on your opinion on the current mappool. Do you have any idea how this happend?
they could have 5 or possibly 6 range to compensate their lack of speed so that way they are technically like moving towers
What about giving the elephant archers (or maybe all unique elephants, so Persians also) some conversion resistance?
All you had to do is rushing the damn gold CJ !!
Hera once more on the receiving end of memes, poor guy...
Don't know if this would be too much of a buff but I would be interested to see them with +1 range
i think they need damage or to be cheaper or alittle range like plus one mb two not to many though monks are to hard of a counter otherwise
Would make sense to have longer range too, they are high up.
Reduce food cost to 80, increase range by 1, increase speed by 0.1, and reduce the upgrade cost to 800F and 700G (cost of 10 Elephant Archers using the new price, same ratio as the old upgrade cost). Alternately, allow it to fire while moving and to target three different units with three arrows (lowering its base damage if necessary for balance), but unable to focus fire all three shots on one unit. Turns them into mobile suppressive fire towers.
bruhhh what if elephant archers could also melee with the elephant while the guy on top fires with his bow?
7:04 I was going to say, "obviously he's going to sell at the market, why are you hyping this up so much?", but apparently he actually forgot 11
I think if he stopped making elephant archers after clearing those cbows, that woulda been a good use for them
11:30 @T90 you forgot Nili oof
Why is Hera chopping straggler trees T90? Why aren't you calling him a noob T90?? XD
I actually think that they should reduce the food cost so it is possibly to rush them out faster. Late game the gold cost makes them hard to mass but early castle age the high food cost makes them even harder to mass while still maintaining a healthy eco. It also doesn’t really mesh well with the civs other good units so maybe a bonus vs infantry or siege?
Ele archers should have a low atack, low accuracy, and should be able to shot while moving like the actual archers over elephants. That would make them meta.
Can we talk about the backwards running scout at 0:10?
The problem with elephant archers is their speed. They're a cavalry archer that can't kite pikeman.
It'd be neat if the elephant archers could also attack in melee while shooting arrows.
Not sure if that is even possible to program into the games code. At least have them fire multiple arrows like the Kipchak
Regardless, elephant archers so hard countered by monks that they really can't do much unless one is already winning by a large margin.
2021 update-they still haven't justified the elephant archer..
What if elephants were resistant or immune to conversion? Would that be too OP? Make them weaker to skirmishers though to compensate (which should be the natural counter anyway because javelins).
Would be too strong then, especially the melee version.
Immune would be broken, resistant would be a good balance.
The first ranked game I ever won was against a player who chose Indians and massed up elephant archers. I sent halberds against them with monks behind the halbs and a couple bombard cannons behind the monks. He had to pull back the elephants shortly after pushing forward and didn't try to push with them again. I was playing as Ethiopians, so maybe he thought I was going to try for archers.
I just don't think elephants in general are a viable unit in AoE II. They're simply too easy to counter. That's a shame because I think they would be really fun to play. I wish they would become a viable unit.