Thank you, it was very kind of you to mention me. I found Interarms Virginian Dragoon cylinders at Numrich. I realize that ordering another cylinder is a gamble, since there's no way to know what the throats measure, but for $55 it might be worth the risk. Maybe your oversize throats were an aberration and some how slipped through QC? Anyway, I wish you the best and hope you can get this revolver sorted out to your satisfaction. Regards, John T.
John4566442 Thanks for the tip on the cylinders. If my possible cast bullet solution strikes out, that might be the way to go - but a gunsmith would have to fit the cylinder anyway. We just might get that gun shooting well yet...Happy Holidays to ya
Interesting project so far FC45LC! My "take-a-way" is that I take a set of calipers with me when I consider buying another revolver! I'm looking forward to the next video.
***** Note that the advantage to doing that is also in the event we find one chamber out of the 5 or 6 to be weird compared to the others. That's sometimes why we keep getting shots that open up our groups. Variations within .001" are normal between all the chambers. For jacketed ammo, we want chamber throats right at factory bullet diameter or within .0005" either way. For best use with cast bullets, we want chamber throats right at commercial cast bullet diameters or within .001 smaller. So i.e. in 38 caliber, we'd want chamber throats at .356-.357" to allow us to use cast bullets at .358". That same cylinder would be perfect for use with .357" jacketed bullets. A good test in addition to calipers would be to bring along a .357" jacketed bullet (not a loaded round). That jacketed bullet should fit well into the forcing cone, but not quite engage the rifling, and when you take that same bullet and place it into the muzzle, the bullet will definitely not go into the bore easily. Best to ya and Happy New Year
I just slugged the cylinder on my Ruger Redhawk 44 mag. The chambers are all .433, which seem rather large. Does that mean that I need to slug the barrel too? I can get some .433 lead bullets from Montana, but no larger. I wonder how that will work if the barrel groove diameter is .429?
In my nearly 40 years of shooting I have experienced two revolvers that didn't shoot worth a damn. One was a 2004/05ish S&W M-686 6-shot 4" .357 Magnum and the the other was a 2008/09ish Ruger SP101 2.5" .357 Magnum. BOTH WERE FACTORY LEMON TURDS THAT SHOULD HAVE NEVER MADE IT OUT THE DOOR! The S&W completely locked up and I needed to send it back. They needed to replace the cylinder and yoke as well as do other repairs. This one also has a slightly canted barrel (which according to S&W is perfectly normal). This revolver shot at least 12" low even at modest distances of less than 20 yards. Ok, let's cut the bullshit here....all your highly experienced senior employees are dying off and or retiring. They were true craftsman and cared. Their modern replacements are hamfisted monkeys just working for a paycheck. Not only don't they care, the current administration and management at S&W doesn't either and encourages it. It's all about the numbers these days. Once they have your money there is no concern for you the customer any longer. The Ruger looked as though it was machined with a chainsaw with all the tool and chatter marks. The workmanship sucked and was unacceptable by any and all loose standards. No surprise this gun didn't shoot well either and after about 150 rounds the cylinder would get tight and start to lock up. The barrel looked liked a sewer pipe with all the lead build up. This was strictly a copper jacketed revolver and that makes it nearly worthless to a reloader and person that actually shoots their guns A LOT. Accuracy wasn't all that great either and it didn't shoot to POA/POI. I kept the S&W but sold the Ruger. The S&W rant is fueled because of also a lemon 642 .38 SPL, M-41 Performance Center target .22, multiple M&Ps in 9mm, .40 S&W, 357 SIG and .45 ACP. It's safe to say it is a "BRAND" problem more so than a "gun" problem. They simply don't care and are just riding on a historical roller coaster of their old good name until it crashes. I'm salty, trust me boys and girls. You can't bullshit me about it, I am well seasoned and have enough first hand experience to know. I will no longer buy a S&W made after about 2001/02. Problem solved!
Good video as always. I'd be interested in seeing when you cast large larger diameter bullets if that fixes your problem. Merry Christmas, one day later!!!!!
Belated Merry Christmas friend. And a Happy New Year also! I am ignorant on how to measure a chamber throat. I assume it is wondrously simple since I have not run across the answer. But pardon my ignorance and possibly a dumb question. How do you measure the chamber throat, and I'll throw in, how do you properly measure the forcing cone?
Michael McNamara You will hear that the best way to measure revolver chamber throats is to take a bullet that will not push through, remove the cylinder and drive the slug through each chamber from the chamber end. Then mike each slug. You can get reliable accuracy by simply using the inside measuring ability of our calipers (that's why they make 'em that way) to use just the tips inside the chamber throats - tension the measurement, find the squarest measurement to get the true chamber throat diameter. Chamber throats are smooth - you can't measure barrel groove diameter this way though as the lands and grooves are not reliably engaged. As for forcing cones, you don't measure them. 11 degrees of cone is the accepted forcing cone. They make 11 degree reamers that you can use to true up the cones, but if you ream your cones, you gain the 11, but lose the relationship. I've found the simplest way is to take a bullet the diameter of your chamber throat (perfect chamber throats are at or just smaller than idea diameter for the caliber) and simply place it into the forcing cone as if the bullet was entering the cone on firing. If the bullet goes in and engages the rifling leade without hitting the cone, the revolver is not properly set up as the cone is being bypassed. The bullet needs to engage the cone 1) slightly early of the rifling leade and 2) while the back end of the bullet is still in the chamber throat. Then the bullet obturates itself into the barrel rifling and you have a system of maximum accuracy and clean shooting with either cast lead or jacketed bullets. If you have poorly related chamber throats and/or forcing cones, you can still get away with jacketed bullets that the revolver allows to enter the barrel at or just bigger than the barrel groove diameter, but that is not a properly set up revolver and it never will perform at peak level and with cast lead bullets will be a poor performer. So, i.e., if your 357 revolver uses .358" bullets through .357"-.3575" chamber throats and shoots accurate and clean with cast bullets - that means your forcing cone is good and your barrel groove diameter is probably .355-.356" (no need to slug your barrel, but if you do - that is what you will get as your revolver is well set up by the factory as it should be) - just smile and shoot up a storm. Note the ideal revolver barrel has groove diameters .001-.002" smaller than chamber throats. The basic principles are 1) we need to use bullets .001-.0015 bigger than chamber throats and 2) the barrel groove diameter cannot be bigger than the chamber throats. Flash gaps should be .001-.003" for spec. Other factors in revolver accuracy - 1) concentricity of each chamber to the barrel axis 2) quality of revolver chambers 3) quality of lockup 4) presence of end shake 5) presence of any barrel constriction 6) quality of the barrel (the best revolver barrels actually have a tiny decreasing taper to the muzzle) 7) quality of the muzzle crown 8) quality of the ammo 9) consistent hammer strike 10) shootability of the revolver 11) the skill of the shooter. If you have everything, you have Jerry Miculek and S & W revolvers. How's that for an answer - sorry, I got carried away (happens a lot) Happy New Year
+westbrazos -- Gas checks would hurt the situation, but they might help just a little - the copper gas check might deflect the venturi of hot gasses just a little bit more than without, but it is questionable how much help. The bullets are still too small and they don't make gas checks big enough to take care of what I need. Going to jacketed bullets is really the only solution, or just clean the lead out afterwards - the Ed's Red did a good job.... Best of the Holidays to ya, FC
I bet your friends at Lee could make you a custom mold and or sizing die.....heck, don't they use you in a promo video! Just got back from the usual drama at the sisterinlaws xmas party....Why do I go????
gman77gas I've got an angle on a possible solution - Let's see what happens when the order comes in!! As for the xmas party - sometimes you have to look over the top of the drama and realize that family time during the Holidays is still wondrous...As my pastor once said "You won't come by this way quite the same ever again..." Best Regards to you and Happy New Year
Merry Christmas, my friend! I addressed you and your Christmas trees in my latest video.... I'm giving you some competition! Check it out, Fortune Cookie! :)
JunkfoodZombie Outstanding, and beautiful Christmas trees...Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays to you...and that was a very articulate video you did on gripping the handgun...good information!! Happy New Year
Merry Christmas Fortune cookie, thanks for your informative video!
EchoFive Knives And thank you for the well wishes...and for the good word. Happy Holidays to ya
Looking forward to see your results when you get the larger bullets. Thanks and MC.
1717jbs I'll be placing a bullet mold order soon - let you know how the thinking and the testing go when I get it...Best Regards and Happy New Year
Thank you, it was very kind of you to mention me.
I found Interarms Virginian Dragoon cylinders at Numrich. I realize that ordering another cylinder is a gamble, since there's no way to know what the throats measure, but for $55 it might be worth the risk. Maybe your oversize throats were an aberration and some how slipped through QC?
Anyway, I wish you the best and hope you can get this revolver sorted out to your satisfaction.
Regards,
John T.
John4566442 Thanks for the tip on the cylinders. If my possible cast bullet solution strikes out, that might be the way to go - but a gunsmith would have to fit the cylinder anyway. We just might get that gun shooting well yet...Happy Holidays to ya
Interesting project so far FC45LC! My "take-a-way" is that I take a set of calipers with me when I consider buying another revolver! I'm looking forward to the next video.
***** Note that the advantage to doing that is also in the event we find one chamber out of the 5 or 6 to be weird compared to the others. That's sometimes why we keep getting shots that open up our groups. Variations within .001" are normal between all the chambers. For jacketed ammo, we want chamber throats right at factory bullet diameter or within .0005" either way. For best use with cast bullets, we want chamber throats right at commercial cast bullet diameters or within .001 smaller. So i.e. in 38 caliber, we'd want chamber throats at .356-.357" to allow us to use cast bullets at .358". That same cylinder would be perfect for use with .357" jacketed bullets. A good test in addition to calipers would be to bring along a .357" jacketed bullet (not a loaded round). That jacketed bullet should fit well into the forcing cone, but not quite engage the rifling, and when you take that same bullet and place it into the muzzle, the bullet will definitely not go into the bore easily. Best to ya and Happy New Year
Thanks for your insights....you da' man!
nickglass12 Great hearing from nickglass12 - Thanks for posting the good word and Happy New Year to you
I just slugged the cylinder on my Ruger Redhawk 44 mag. The chambers are all .433, which seem rather large. Does that mean that I need to slug the barrel too? I can get some .433 lead bullets from Montana, but no larger. I wonder how that will work if the barrel groove diameter is .429?
In my nearly 40 years of shooting I have experienced two revolvers that didn't shoot worth a damn. One was a 2004/05ish S&W M-686 6-shot 4" .357 Magnum and the the other was a 2008/09ish Ruger SP101 2.5" .357 Magnum.
BOTH WERE FACTORY LEMON TURDS THAT SHOULD HAVE NEVER MADE IT OUT THE DOOR!
The S&W completely locked up and I needed to send it back. They needed to replace the cylinder and yoke as well as do other repairs. This one also has a slightly canted barrel (which according to S&W is perfectly normal). This revolver shot at least 12" low even at modest distances of less than 20 yards. Ok, let's cut the bullshit here....all your highly experienced senior employees are dying off and or retiring. They were true craftsman and cared. Their modern replacements are hamfisted monkeys just working for a paycheck. Not only don't they care, the current administration and management at S&W doesn't either and encourages it. It's all about the numbers these days. Once they have your money there is no concern for you the customer any longer.
The Ruger looked as though it was machined with a chainsaw with all the tool and chatter marks. The workmanship sucked and was unacceptable by any and all loose standards. No surprise this gun didn't shoot well either and after about 150 rounds the cylinder would get tight and start to lock up. The barrel looked liked a sewer pipe with all the lead build up. This was strictly a copper jacketed revolver and that makes it nearly worthless to a reloader and person that actually shoots their guns A LOT. Accuracy wasn't all that great either and it didn't shoot to POA/POI.
I kept the S&W but sold the Ruger.
The S&W rant is fueled because of also a lemon 642 .38 SPL, M-41 Performance Center target .22, multiple M&Ps in 9mm, .40 S&W, 357 SIG and .45 ACP. It's safe to say it is a "BRAND" problem more so than a "gun" problem. They simply don't care and are just riding on a historical roller coaster of their old good name until it crashes. I'm salty, trust me boys and girls. You can't bullshit me about it, I am well seasoned and have enough first hand experience to know. I will no longer buy a S&W made after about 2001/02.
Problem solved!
Good video as always. I'd be interested in seeing when you cast large larger diameter bullets if that fixes your problem. Merry Christmas, one day later!!!!!
Bob Kopchik Thanks for the comment. It's going to be an interesting video, hopefully... Happy New Year to ya
Belated Merry Christmas friend. And a Happy New Year also! I am ignorant on how to measure a chamber throat. I assume it is wondrously simple since I have not run across the answer. But pardon my ignorance and possibly a dumb question. How do you measure the chamber throat, and I'll throw in, how do you properly measure the forcing cone?
Michael McNamara You will hear that the best way to measure revolver chamber throats is to take a bullet that will not push through, remove the cylinder and drive the slug through each chamber from the chamber end. Then mike each slug. You can get reliable accuracy by simply using the inside measuring ability of our calipers (that's why they make 'em that way) to use just the tips inside the chamber throats - tension the measurement, find the squarest measurement to get the true chamber throat diameter. Chamber throats are smooth - you can't measure barrel groove diameter this way though as the lands and grooves are not reliably engaged. As for forcing cones, you don't measure them. 11 degrees of cone is the accepted forcing cone. They make 11 degree reamers that you can use to true up the cones, but if you ream your cones, you gain the 11, but lose the relationship. I've found the simplest way is to take a bullet the diameter of your chamber throat (perfect chamber throats are at or just smaller than idea diameter for the caliber) and simply place it into the forcing cone as if the bullet was entering the cone on firing. If the bullet goes in and engages the rifling leade without hitting the cone, the revolver is not properly set up as the cone is being bypassed. The bullet needs to engage the cone 1) slightly early of the rifling leade and 2) while the back end of the bullet is still in the chamber throat. Then the bullet obturates itself into the barrel rifling and you have a system of maximum accuracy and clean shooting with either cast lead or jacketed bullets. If you have poorly related chamber throats and/or forcing cones, you can still get away with jacketed bullets that the revolver allows to enter the barrel at or just bigger than the barrel groove diameter, but that is not a properly set up revolver and it never will perform at peak level and with cast lead bullets will be a poor performer. So, i.e., if your 357 revolver uses .358" bullets through .357"-.3575" chamber throats and shoots accurate and clean with cast bullets - that means your forcing cone is good and your barrel groove diameter is probably .355-.356" (no need to slug your barrel, but if you do - that is what you will get as your revolver is well set up by the factory as it should be) - just smile and shoot up a storm. Note the ideal revolver barrel has groove diameters .001-.002" smaller than chamber throats. The basic principles are 1) we need to use bullets .001-.0015 bigger than chamber throats and 2) the barrel groove diameter cannot be bigger than the chamber throats. Flash gaps should be .001-.003" for spec. Other factors in revolver accuracy - 1) concentricity of each chamber to the barrel axis 2) quality of revolver chambers 3) quality of lockup 4) presence of end shake 5) presence of any barrel constriction 6) quality of the barrel (the best revolver barrels actually have a tiny decreasing taper to the muzzle) 7) quality of the muzzle crown 8) quality of the ammo 9) consistent hammer strike 10) shootability of the revolver 11) the skill of the shooter. If you have everything, you have Jerry Miculek and S & W revolvers. How's that for an answer - sorry, I got carried away (happens a lot) Happy New Year
I'm not real familiar with slugging and sizing,but when a gun like your Virginian is that far off,can gas checks help?
+westbrazos -- Gas checks would hurt the situation, but they might help just a little - the copper gas check might deflect the venturi of hot gasses just a little bit more than without, but it is questionable how much help. The bullets are still too small and they don't make gas checks big enough to take care of what I need. Going to jacketed bullets is really the only solution, or just clean the lead out afterwards - the Ed's Red did a good job.... Best of the Holidays to ya, FC
Thanks
Merry Christmas Fortune cookie
Mickey Mac Thanks Mickey Mac!! And Happy New Year to you...
I bet your friends at Lee could make you a custom mold and or sizing die.....heck, don't they use you in a promo video!
Just got back from the usual drama at the sisterinlaws xmas party....Why do I go????
gman77gas I've got an angle on a possible solution - Let's see what happens when the order comes in!! As for the xmas party - sometimes you have to look over the top of the drama and realize that family time during the Holidays is still wondrous...As my pastor once said "You won't come by this way quite the same ever again..." Best Regards to you and Happy New Year
Merry Christmas, my friend! I addressed you and your Christmas trees in my latest video.... I'm giving you some competition! Check it out, Fortune Cookie! :)
JunkfoodZombie Outstanding, and beautiful Christmas trees...Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays to you...and that was a very articulate video you did on gripping the handgun...good information!! Happy New Year
FortuneCookie45LC Well, thank you very much, sir! I hope you had a wonderful Christmas, and have a happy new year!