Nice summary! Think this is pretty much how I’d rank everything too. Hard to say though without having played most of the legion rules. I have most experience with Ultramarines and have found that rule to be pretty effective. Using point defense weapons to ping any target detachment (it just has to hit, not do damage) only for a follow up detachment to lay into that target has been pretty useful. I’ll usually do this with rhinos as they rush up which then gives the Kratos units rerolls of 1’s on all those weapons each of them carry.
Good summary, and accurate too. Many of the traits are under powered when comparing against others. Thankfully I play Blood Angels and my primary opponent plays Night Lords and we both agree to bypass these rules and just play th game without them. Much better!
Glad you enjoyed the video. It's sad to see these traits being left by the wayside, but I have to admit that the game would probably be better off without them.
I've found the Sons of Horus rule comes up more than you suggest. Mind, I'm using a lot of Rhino-born tactical detachments that jump out on advance and lay down hails of fire at 4" range. If you are rolling 10-12 dice its giving you a good chance of an extra hit, every time. Likewise, the fact it works on vehicles and their light AT weapons makes things like Sicaran Punishers or Kratos with all heavy bolters effectively have an extra dice of shooting. It isn't hugely impactful but it does all add up, as if you have 3-4 detachments using it per turn thats a couple of extra hits, so 6+ over the ocurse of the game. Not huge impact, but I think the frequency happens if you play around it.
I can definitely see it coming up more if you're deliberately leaning into it with your mechanized infantry. I just have to wonder if you wouldn't get more bang for your buck with an equivalent number of missile launchers?
I pretty much agree with most of what you’ve said! Based on my experience so far, I’d suggest Alpha Legion and World Eaters are the best two traitor options, power wise. For the imperium, I’d suggest the Imperial Fists and the Raven Guard. I’d have put the Imperial Fists in at least B Tier. Facing two or three full strength missile launcher detachments that re-roll misses is challenging! I’m collecting and painting just Death Guard and Sons of Horus though for now.
Missile launchers are a great unit! Probably too good for their points cost, unfortunately. I think the Fists are largely let down because it's such a static and passive rule, but with that 20" range maybe that isn't such a drawback.
I 100% agree with what you siad in this video, and I have played agnist alpah legion in mutliable game and they are the most over powered with they're rule
I don't mind so much that they have a powerful special rule -- but the other legions should have been given rules of similar effectiveness. Unfortunately, we'll not likely see an update unless a new edition comes out.
One thing that should be pointed out, that the Dark Angels requirement for "detachment types" is essentially the number of different detachments. So having an armoured company with 1 predator tank detachment, 1 sicaran tank detachment, and 1 kratos tank detachment qualifies for giving all vehicles nimble. With a demi-company, the HQ, tactical, and support detachment also easily fulfil the criteria.
I don't believe this is correct. Per the rules on page 44, Detachment types are Infantry, Cavalry, etc. You may be thinking of Detachment Roles, to which the Dark Angels special rule does not refer.
@tacticaeimperialis ok, I stand corrected. So that makes it literally impossible for an armored company to qualify, since all units in it are vehicles, and in the sky-hunter phalanx, all units are cavalry.
Definitely reinforces how little consideration the writing team seems to have given these special rules. Just a little playtesting or critical examination should have been enough.
Very good assessment. I have to say, when I read the rules for the first time I was disappointed that the legions had special rules at all mainly because it was immediately apparent that some were better than others and that this was going to create a meta off the bat.
It is a shame. I do think we need special rules for the legions because the different natures of the Astartes legions are such an integral part of the setting. But at the same time, it's pretty clear that the writing team did not do their due diligence in testing these -- or even comparing them, honestly. Even a cursory glance should have been enough to clue them in to the imbalances. Unfortunately, they're very unlikely to change them until we get a new edition (if that ever happens). The easiest fix might just be to curb Infiltrate somehow.
I agree. Infiltrate should be a formation rule anyway. Honestly though I have no idea what the Raven Guard or Alpha legion should get in its stead though. I am currently stalked out in my LI hobby due to this very thing. I started playing WE because I liked the colour scheme but the Legion rule also seemed ok. This was before the meta was established. I have Alpha legion on my table atm, to get infiltrate on my Marines so I dont have to ally in a SA pioneer company but it feels gamey. I dont want to be that guy, but if I dont, I feel like I am playing with the deck stacked against me. I dont like it that you can't just play whatever legion you like without it having a tiered impact on the game.
@@kalisthenes6650 At least Solar Auxilia can take a pioneer company to let them contest the infiltrate game some, but unfortunately the Mechanicum are in a much worse position because they lack even that. Yes, they can take allies, but that shouldn't be necessary just to stay competitive. You're absolutely right that playing without Infiltrate is essentially playing a losing game, and it shouldn't be that way at all. The fact that most missions use progressive scoring makes it even more harmful to the game. The easiest solution is just to curb Infiltrate somehow. I think in previous editions of 40k infiltration had to take place in terrain and out of line of sight. Moving that over to Legions Imperialis might cut down some of the more egregious exploits.
Ooh boy… had to pause at the Space Wolves to comment lol It is MASSIVELY impactful. Pioneer companies infiltrating a bunch of Ogryns right in your grill for a T1 charge is a HUGE headache! Hard disagree on your assessment there
Remember that we're looking at these relative to each other and not in isolation. Yes, in the situation you describe, the Space Wolf legion special rule would be beneficial. Is it going to be even half as impactful as deploying on the objectives as the Raven Guard or Alpha Legion special rule allows them to do? I don't believe so. It's also not going to come into play very often, because hopefully you are facing a variety of opponents and not facing Alpha Legion, Raven Guard, or Pioneer Company spamming Solar Auxilia every single game. If you are, then clearly the value equation will change.
@ Alpha Legion is one of the most popular legions for tournament play, and Pioneer coy is a staple of any SA army. I understand the Wolves trait is highly specialized but it’s a CRUCIAL piece of a good list, imo. Especially since you only need like one min-sized Formation spread out across your deployment zone to benefit.
Raven Guard: "This special rule is fantastic" Alpha Legion: "This is the best Legion Special Rule" Much like a ogryn, sentinel, axe wielding packed pioneer detachment, not in the least bit gamey. I'll be taking that wolf pack in the future. Game recognises game.
Nice summary! Think this is pretty much how I’d rank everything too. Hard to say though without having played most of the legion rules. I have most experience with Ultramarines and have found that rule to be pretty effective. Using point defense weapons to ping any target detachment (it just has to hit, not do damage) only for a follow up detachment to lay into that target has been pretty useful. I’ll usually do this with rhinos as they rush up which then gives the Kratos units rerolls of 1’s on all those weapons each of them carry.
I have to admit that I hadn't considered using point defense as an element of their rule. That's clever!
love the thumbnail
Mark did another great job with this one!
Good summary, and accurate too.
Many of the traits are under powered when comparing against others.
Thankfully I play Blood Angels and my primary opponent plays Night Lords and we both agree to bypass these rules and just play th game without them.
Much better!
Glad you enjoyed the video. It's sad to see these traits being left by the wayside, but I have to admit that the game would probably be better off without them.
I've found the Sons of Horus rule comes up more than you suggest. Mind, I'm using a lot of Rhino-born tactical detachments that jump out on advance and lay down hails of fire at 4" range. If you are rolling 10-12 dice its giving you a good chance of an extra hit, every time. Likewise, the fact it works on vehicles and their light AT weapons makes things like Sicaran Punishers or Kratos with all heavy bolters effectively have an extra dice of shooting. It isn't hugely impactful but it does all add up, as if you have 3-4 detachments using it per turn thats a couple of extra hits, so 6+ over the ocurse of the game. Not huge impact, but I think the frequency happens if you play around it.
I can definitely see it coming up more if you're deliberately leaning into it with your mechanized infantry. I just have to wonder if you wouldn't get more bang for your buck with an equivalent number of missile launchers?
I pretty much agree with most of what you’ve said! Based on my experience so far, I’d suggest Alpha Legion and World Eaters are the best two traitor options, power wise. For the imperium, I’d suggest the Imperial Fists and the Raven Guard. I’d have put the Imperial Fists in at least B Tier. Facing two or three full strength missile launcher detachments that re-roll misses is challenging! I’m collecting and painting just Death Guard and Sons of Horus though for now.
Missile launchers are a great unit! Probably too good for their points cost, unfortunately. I think the Fists are largely let down because it's such a static and passive rule, but with that 20" range maybe that isn't such a drawback.
@@tacticaeimperialis Static, yes, but it plays very well with infantry missile spam, which is a meta choice.
I 100% agree with what you siad in this video, and I have played agnist alpah legion in mutliable game and they are the most over powered with they're rule
I don't mind so much that they have a powerful special rule -- but the other legions should have been given rules of similar effectiveness. Unfortunately, we'll not likely see an update unless a new edition comes out.
One thing that should be pointed out, that the Dark Angels requirement for "detachment types" is essentially the number of different detachments. So having an armoured company with 1 predator tank detachment, 1 sicaran tank detachment, and 1 kratos tank detachment qualifies for giving all vehicles nimble. With a demi-company, the HQ, tactical, and support detachment also easily fulfil the criteria.
I don't believe this is correct. Per the rules on page 44, Detachment types are Infantry, Cavalry, etc. You may be thinking of Detachment Roles, to which the Dark Angels special rule does not refer.
@tacticaeimperialis ok, I stand corrected. So that makes it literally impossible for an armored company to qualify, since all units in it are vehicles, and in the sky-hunter phalanx, all units are cavalry.
I’m a relatively inexperienced tabletop gamer and it’s immediately apparent to me how imbalanced these are at a single reading.
Definitely reinforces how little consideration the writing team seems to have given these special rules. Just a little playtesting or critical examination should have been enough.
Very good assessment. I have to say, when I read the rules for the first time I was disappointed that the legions had special rules at all mainly because it was immediately apparent that some were better than others and that this was going to create a meta off the bat.
It is a shame. I do think we need special rules for the legions because the different natures of the Astartes legions are such an integral part of the setting. But at the same time, it's pretty clear that the writing team did not do their due diligence in testing these -- or even comparing them, honestly. Even a cursory glance should have been enough to clue them in to the imbalances.
Unfortunately, they're very unlikely to change them until we get a new edition (if that ever happens). The easiest fix might just be to curb Infiltrate somehow.
I agree. Infiltrate should be a formation rule anyway. Honestly though I have no idea what the Raven Guard or Alpha legion should get in its stead though. I am currently stalked out in my LI hobby due to this very thing. I started playing WE because I liked the colour scheme but the Legion rule also seemed ok. This was before the meta was established. I have Alpha legion on my table atm, to get infiltrate on my Marines so I dont have to ally in a SA pioneer company but it feels gamey. I dont want to be that guy, but if I dont, I feel like I am playing with the deck stacked against me. I dont like it that you can't just play whatever legion you like without it having a tiered impact on the game.
@@kalisthenes6650 At least Solar Auxilia can take a pioneer company to let them contest the infiltrate game some, but unfortunately the Mechanicum are in a much worse position because they lack even that. Yes, they can take allies, but that shouldn't be necessary just to stay competitive.
You're absolutely right that playing without Infiltrate is essentially playing a losing game, and it shouldn't be that way at all. The fact that most missions use progressive scoring makes it even more harmful to the game.
The easiest solution is just to curb Infiltrate somehow. I think in previous editions of 40k infiltration had to take place in terrain and out of line of sight. Moving that over to Legions Imperialis might cut down some of the more egregious exploits.
Ooh boy… had to pause at the Space Wolves to comment lol
It is MASSIVELY impactful. Pioneer companies infiltrating a bunch of Ogryns right in your grill for a T1 charge is a HUGE headache!
Hard disagree on your assessment there
Remember that we're looking at these relative to each other and not in isolation. Yes, in the situation you describe, the Space Wolf legion special rule would be beneficial. Is it going to be even half as impactful as deploying on the objectives as the Raven Guard or Alpha Legion special rule allows them to do? I don't believe so.
It's also not going to come into play very often, because hopefully you are facing a variety of opponents and not facing Alpha Legion, Raven Guard, or Pioneer Company spamming Solar Auxilia every single game. If you are, then clearly the value equation will change.
@ Alpha Legion is one of the most popular legions for tournament play, and Pioneer coy is a staple of any SA army. I understand the Wolves trait is highly specialized but it’s a CRUCIAL piece of a good list, imo. Especially since you only need like one min-sized Formation spread out across your deployment zone to benefit.
@@desc4405 Totally fair. If that's the kind of environment you're operating in, then yes, Space Wolves are going to be very helpful.
Raven Guard: "This special rule is fantastic"
Alpha Legion: "This is the best Legion Special Rule"
Much like a ogryn, sentinel, axe wielding packed pioneer detachment, not in the least bit gamey. I'll be taking that wolf pack in the future.
Game recognises game.