@@ironbomb6753 it's not so much hate as I think we just aren't a profitable enough market. The number of people who engage with 40k products regularly can probably under 4 digits, so for them it's a lot of hassle for minimum gain. They might as well hike up the prices and sell their products to the whales while the rest of us learn the beauty of recasting
@@ironbomb6753 We're a captive market that is slavishly devoted to buying GW official. So they can fuck us however they like and we'll just throw money at them, hand over fist, and eagerly await the next round of contempt. That's changing now, SLOWLY, but still too close to the norm.
Horus Heresy, and Legio Imperialis has proven to me that the older game systems were fun not because they were simple, or fast. But because despite how complicated they were at the end of the day complex enough to be detailed, to allow for stories to be told. Aka FUN. With 10th edition, it’s so hard to have fun because everyone just wants to win win win, but don’t ever want to tell a story. I dunno. Thats just me.
Simple systems are easy to learn, boring to master. Complex systems are hard to learn, fun to master. Wargames are supposed to make you feel like a commander moving real soldiers on a battlefield. Unfortunately this means they need to be somewhat complex, otherwise the immersion is ruined and you're just playing magic the gathering with soldier shaped tokens.
Interesting. I've just started the hobby in 10th, about 50/50 playing narrative crusade and conpetitive matched play. We've had some pretty fun story moments, one of my Cadre Fireblades is now famous for bringing down a chaos knight with a lucky grenade toss after his squad was wiped, for instance. What kind of story moments did the older, more complicated rules lend themselves to? You've got me curious if it'd be worth trying to get my group to try an older edition now!
They're talking about how complexities makes games take longer and adds a chaotic type of unpredictability, which allows players to create narratives throughout the game, rather than just having a quick round of a simple game.
People said that about adeptus titanicus and thats still going strong. Theres certainly atleast 6-9 months of future content planed since we have a rulebnook and new minis confirmed. I wouldnt worry that much.
@@impguardwarhamer and with the legions imperialis package refresh and beta garmon supplemental set, once could argue that Titanicus is sort of living on symbiotically with LI w/r to model releases and datasheets. Especially since Titanicus is already a wholly contained and complete rules system, the models they design for Titanicus and LI pull double duty in a lot of cases. It's good use of internal resources.
I do tend to enjoy these smaller 20-15-8mm sized miniature games myself these days, smaller tables and/or just fielding bigger armies without a huge unreasonable table.
Same reason I've been so into Kill Team & Warcry lately. Relatively cheap, small team to build/paint, and quick/small games. Plus, most AoS/40k armies can be worked into a Compendium Kill Team
Having played both Space Marine/Titan Legions and Epic Armageddon, EA is a vastly superior game system and it feels like a backward step for GW to revert back to the Space Marine rules. Rescaling the miniatures from 6mm to 8mm was also not a good move as it invalidated existing players armies who otherwise may have given this a go. EA in my eyes is a better game in every department except for one fairly minor thing. Did I have fun with Space Marine/Titan Legions in its time? Yes Would I play Space Marine/Titan Legions/Legions Imperialis over EA? No
@@stevenbaker3593 sorry buddy, my comment was towards OP saying he thinks he likes Epic Armageddon. I've watched the video and I just don't know why thinks that 🤔
The best thing about this game is the flexibility of the rules. My own group has basically revised about a half dozen rules or stat lines and added things like downed aircraft and ammo-racked tanks. Having all the stats and rules condensed into a single collection instead of spread out over multiple codex launches that are widely spaced over 3 years makes it easier to do house-tweaks.
Excellent video! The best thing about Legions Imperialis is how enthusiastic it's made me to get back into Space Marine/Titan Legions again! I love the old game. There is so much written material about the early Epic days that you can get wonderfully lost in it all. Crucially, the game - and GW in general - was less up its own arse back then.
Unit activation (alternative activation) is simply the best thing what can happen in a wargame. AT is one of if not our favorite wargame now. The only army activation game what I play is Warmaster Revolution.
I liked the video! You said the most important part that a lot of people seem to have missed: the game is fun even with its flaws. I am really hoping that with the GW tournament concluded they release some errata to fix some of the more obvious stuff! As for rules, I just use new recruit for unit stats that were released in expansions and if they deliver some good extra content (and I can actually buy it) I might purchase the book itsself
My hope is that they at least open it up to the great crusade and give us some of the weirder stuff as single-box armies. The Compliance of Murder and The Triumph at Ullanor would be amazing as campaign supplements.
@@michaelstevens5712 Great Crusade titanicus would of been perfect, man. Everyone has their best weapons and we'd have a game for every time period*. Horus Heresy, Great Crusade, modern 40K. *: Besides War in Heaven, Age of Strife, Unification Wars, Dark Age of Technology, Etc Etc
@@michaelstevens5712 I won't lie, I think this would be great. A campaign box of War of the Beast or the War in Heaven would be so cool because you have four unique factions you can run in Epic Scale with that. Aeldari and Necrons or the Orks and Mechanicus (The War of the Beast has Space Marines, but Mechanicus do play a semi-important role)
For expanding into Xenos? Keep it historical. For Orks? Rise of the Beast. From there, do Imperial Guard with Armageddon. Eldar? Fall of Iyanden, which also means Tyranids. Just have a strictly common rule set, so we can do “what if?” games.
Making Leman Russ such an obvious staple and then making them impossible to get outside of the core set feels like GW is just begging us to shop third party. Actually a lot of the scarcity of this game feels this way.
I have to say that I play Epic Armagueddon with 30k armies since 5-6 years and its rocks. I've try Legion Imperialis and still prefer Epic Armagueddon (Net Epic)
This is one of the better reviews I've seen/ read so far. You hit the right points and summarize it perfectly: it's flawed, but IT'S FUN. My personal biggest issue with LI is the strange way GW filled out their infantry sprues. If you want more tactical Marines, you're also getting more dreads and special weapons, which you're probably not going to use. Or the weird inclusion of just two assault Marines per sprue, meaning you need four sprues to get one full detachment. And don't get me started on the Astartes support sprue, or the SA infantry sprue. I've found that house rules are the go-to to make it less complicated/ unbalanced and more fun.
I think I go you go is not feasible anymore. Alternating activations are just so much more engaging. I don't want to play 40k anymore because it is so boring to wait and die.
Even better (at least for narrative play) is the system used in bolt action where activation is more random. Wonder if we would have seen this in 40k had Priestley not moved upstairs and ultimately left
It's hard to determine how many will play a game when people that want to can't purchase the required components. Personally, not having Xenos makes it less enjoyable. Oh, and I don't think it was on accident Warhounds being 330 and having 2, it means 1500pts+ before you can use them (one on each side), and that means filling out the rest of the forces, AND making a second box less viable to do so.
What I like in Warmaster is the lack of "herohammer". There is no single big hero model or great monster dominating the field. A hero or monster or wizard is something that chips in to bring one decisive engagement up to snuff. And it sounds like this idea is somewhat around in Epic too. A titan-class unit does not dominate all there is.
Cheers for the review. Most informative (and amusing). I'm intrigued by your comment about Warmaster dying due to scenery issues, though. If you get the chance, could you elaborate? I suspect I might know what you mean but you never know!
Warmaster is a great game, but IIRC scenery was only available via Forgeworld which was pretty hard to get. It also suffered from not having a living ruleset (Like Bloodbowl) or playtest rules in WD (like BFG and Mordheim), support being a separate magazine from White Dwarf (Warmaster Mag IIRC), being released at the time specialist games were being marginalised and at the time where GW was cost cutting in all areas (1999-2001). You could probably make a case for it being too "thinky" as well as not having enough miniatures for the audience of painters to latch onto. Great game though.
@@OldenDemon Yes, that's what we found when playing it. They supported the figures (kind of) but not the environment. Of course it's lived on, as has net EA and so on, and is now pretty fleshed out (and clearly spawned Black Powder and Blitzkrieg Commander et al). As you say, great game. The only annoying thing was that the rank-and-flankiness got a bit too involved (certainly for my kids, although that was clearly a draw for many more hardcore gamers) so I've modified it to chunking on 40x40 bases (so you can have individual cavalry in wedges and so on - looks fantastic). I do fear that LIMP (or Epic 30K as we should clearly be calling it so far) is going to go the same way as its predecessors (and Warmaster/BFG/Man O'War etc) and get deprecated before it really gets going, not least as business-types are running GW now, rather than hobbyists. Ho hum. Nice to see tiny tanks back, though, isn't it? Not least as I have a resin printer! Cheers again for the vid (and the reply) and I've subscribed as I'm a fan of both wargames and gentle sarcasm 😆.
I think a big part of the color mush problem with Imperialis’s color scheme is the fact that GW chose the Death Guard as the Imperialis poster boys. I understand that most people are tired of Ultramarines but the dull sickly color of the Pre-Nurgle Death Guard just blend in with the urban setting most of the promotional material take place on. I think that Blood Angles or Emperor’s Children would’ve made the art pop a lot more.
I think the biggest problem on the colour front is the actual setting itself. For the most part, the legions were just mono colour schemes. Red, white, blue, green etc etc. Colours on this level need some form of large spot colour to break things up. At 28mm, gun cases and trim etc are sufficient to break things up but at 8mm/epic scale colour variety is important. Solar auxilia don't just have to be grey, like I think the calth and ultramarine aligned auxilia are blue and so on
Feels bad to not really surport the "new" game, but with marines only being limited to mk6, and the undercuts, I'd probably have to limit myself to 3d printed infantry if I did get involved in this system. Helps keep the cost down to, which makes it feel even more appealing.
Honestly shocked they decided to make this a Horus Heresy spin off game, rather than tapping into the infinite money an Epic 40k reboot would generate.
Why shocked? This is done by the much smaller Specialist Designs Studio team. Full epic would be too big of a project. Also SDS aren’t strictly allowed to make 40k products.
Dood! Spot on and great perspectives. I don't think there was anything to disagree with. My biggest gripe is the BS rules or scattered rules at best. The biggest worry sinking money into this was the rules but I've been playing wargames long enough to adapt the play however we want and still enjoy the heck out of it. Looking forward to more EPIC SHIT from you bruh!
I honest to god want to see how custodes would play in this would they be like a every squad is just a single custodes so its a hero hammer army with like maybe 80 heroes total at 3k points versus the several hundred units of space marines it be like lore accurate ish
This is a great video, as usual. Im really happy to see a decrese in the ai generated imagery here. I didnt have a problem with it, but the stock images and photos have a different, nicer feel.
LI has become my favourite game. Its my ma8n focus for this year. My LI game group has grown from me alone to 7 players since January. We've started a campaign and have a few more people coming to watch every month too.
Been loving the game so far, within the confines of my very casual gaming group as you identify. Thanks for mentioning about the refrence sheet... definetely been doing all of those things wrong thanks to it!
Great vid! I've painted a starting force of Dark Angels, adding a unit about once a week, but my area is starved for AL players. Might have to travel to play :(
i really like LIMP, its currently my go to wargame. It is flawed in terms of not having the units it needs just yet, and i have some nit picks, but as a basis it just feels so good to play, and its easy enough to get into ive been able to get a friend of mine who normaly dont play these games to start playing it regularly. Also, i printed 2 emperor titans (imperator and warmonger), and me and my friends made house rules for em and now play with em quite frequently, especially for narrative games. We made em 2000 points tho Also, yes, the cardboard tokens are awful, so i just printed some order dials instead, works much better And yeah, the ptitan plasma weapons are just, sad. Me and my friends decided to give it blast 3" just so it would be more interesting because otherwise they are just inferior to everything else. Thunderhawks are basicly a must have for space marines because they are just THAT good and lets you transport dreadnoughts, especially leviathans, into battle and wreck serious face. I could go on, but frankly, i dont wanna write the equivalent of a 2 hour long video essay LEGIONS IMPERIALIS!! Flawed System! Great game!
One thing I feel deserves mentioning: these kits are bloody wonderful. The space marine infantry is decent, the dreads are pretty good, but the drop pods and thunderhawk are some of the most wonderful kits I've ever built.
The box is designed to split down the middle and the problem gets even worse. That said, i think the box is meant to be a taster, giving the person/people who buy it the ability to try out all the mechanics: infantry, walkers, tanks and titans. The forces are relatively balanced from what ive seen so i think thats the mind set behind it.
Just as a point of note, the release of the Vanguard box set with speeders and bikes makes the Space Wolves have a purpose against far more enemies as they also prevent outflank moves within 8”.
Hit the nail on the head. I have such unbelievable buyers remorse after investing into LI… such a shame it’s a dead game. I was so excited. I can’t see myself buying into any other GW game outside my existing 40K armies now, and even in those my favourite models are added to legends and my hobby time outright trashed.
I bought the big box, plus some add-ons, kept the rules and sold the figures. You see, only when I had the game did I realised my old eyes (even with glasses) were just not good enough to play at the epic scale. Loved your review.
Hi, I work with a lot of “three letter acronym” organizations and having an air-gapped BU doesn’t prevent internal communication. There is such thing as one way channel of information :)
Two words, Capitol Imperialis, big brick on tracks, loved it ❤. As per, brilliant episode with the ever groovey dinner jazz. But as previously mentioned, wor ist die kleine hunds bitte?
I've actually been building my own version of epic around a scaled up catan board and scaled down epic miniatures probably shrinking to the point that infantry are too small to really see which all makes it an entirely different game that might as well have it's own original factions instead of being warhammer epic at all but that gives me the freedom to make whatever will make the game more fun. Lets have spaceships be part of it with spaceships moving a number of hex while everything on the ground can only move a distance within a hex and little battles can occur on a spaceship while it's moving...
As someone that has been fed up with GW for a few years now, the main reason I got Imperialis is to use the models for Battletech. The infantry and most vehicles are perfect for combined arms in Battletech.
I really love this game, all points made are valid here. I've basically just subscribed to the game and buy 1-2 of everything that comes out because the mini's are so much fun to build and paint...like WAY more fun that anything 28mm
in regards to your index comment. i have no idea why GW stopped printing good indexes at the back of book. WHFB 8th index was perfect. everything you need is in it. TheOldWorld index is ok, but not as good. This confuses me alot as they used to make books so well, and then all of a sudden, when 8th 40k and AOS came out, they decided that they wanted to strip books down to the bare minimum. hell, even necromundas most up to date rule book is fantastic. IT EVEN HAS A BOOK MARK TASLE
LI is a game i relegated to the spot of "We will watch your career with great interest" I dont care about it now but it has the potential to get me excited if maybe it had more armies like mechanicum or xenos
Most folks looking to field xenos troops might not remember that original epic was pretty much HH. They introduced more races as it went along. I got the sets abd they are nice abd the rules are pretty easy. Looking forward to playing.
The thing is... I was excited till they said it was horus heresy only. It is like old world where I want to dive in, but GW has made it clear whole armies are just never coming (worse for this though, as we aren't even getting non space marine imperium/rebels)
I do find 40k tables absolutely jammed on every square inch with models or terrain totally characterless and unappealing. This games seems very intersting.
I really enjoy LI, but I am a narrative player, not a competitive one. But I have my share of problem with the rules (like rending) and game design (like weapons profiles / no weapon costs) or even the fact, that i have to carry 2 rule books around, still I really enjoy painting and playing this scale. I stepped away from 40k, when 8. edition was released, switching over to Horus Heresy, which is still my mainstay game up to date. When Titianicus and Aeronautica (re)released, because those "smaller" scale games is something i always wanted. Even back when Epic was still a thing, i was staring at the models and always wanted to get some, but being a at uni, they were not in my financial reach. Now i just sit here and enjoy the system, 3d printing more stuff as i write this (Mastodons, Fellblades, Glaives and many many many other Marks of armours)
Same in America. I had to sell my car, loose my wife, my kids don't talk to me and my car is about to be repoed. All to buy..... One space marine. Worth it!
Love this review and the causal lounge piano in the background 😂 Have played several games recently as, much like yourself have been in love with Epic since it was space marine. One regular opponent has plenty of time on his hands and some of the broken things he has realised due to the lack of clarity on certain rules is ridiculous, like the other night, starting his Thunderhawk in skimmer mode on the board in turn one, zipping across the board and not being able to be targeted by anti air and dripping off his leviathans for a charge in turn one... All due to certain clarity on specific rules. But as you say, new game, let's see whether they fix things or leave it broken.
to be honest I could see why people call Legions Imperialis dead, because GW has a bad habit of making a game system and when it doesn't double the profits of they're mainline game that's been out since the 80s they abandon it... meaning that all the models, books, etc are now only available for 3D printing and the second hand market, which in effect does kind of kill the game, for examples look at Battlefleet Gothic, Aeronautica Imperialis, and Space Hulk
I’m not sure those examples back up your theory. BFG was a 6 month release job and pushed to specialist games when that was a think, AI was a closed system that couldn’t go past a certain point unless they wanted to add more flyers into the game and Space Hulk has been a one and done board game since the 80’s
Great roundup and agree with pretty much every point. Warhounds being 330 seems like a misprint from an older version where it was 33% or a third and then they changed their mind but forgot to change the hounds.
About rules we prefer classic Epic 40k (also, we can use more armies than marines). And about prices, if GW is usually stupid, the cost of Legions is just over the top. Just 3D print whatever you need and play with better rules.
I love the cover of the book :) It's very serious looking. I agree with the lack of illustrations inside, it's very...daunting, but it's very heresy like.
Seen the video thrice, first at work, the relistned at work but more focus, than at home, slighty drunk a third time but now watching along viewing. A damn fine game review #3rdEditionEpicFFS
Hello! Love your channel - posted on another video but would love you to do some other WD Battle Reports! If you're having trouble finding them, the facebook 2e 40k group has a pdf of ALL the 2nd edition battle reports ever published, and it's really interesting as there are some in there that I never knew existed! Ones that would be worth looking at that you havn't done include:- WD 171 - Witch hunt. The Dark Millenium BR, and it's really good. WD 187 - Heretec! Big Tank battle WD 194 - Civil War. Two tournament winners fight WD 202 - The Lurking horror. A great BR between Space wolves and Tyranids with a huge twist. WD 219 - Ambush. Actually a lovely BR with two really well composed armies. Shame about the photography. WD 212 - Last Stand. The last 2e BR, and it's AMAZEBALLS. I'll let you discover why... just some ideas! best dude.
Thanks, I believe I have the file in question as well as hard copies of all the reports from this era, the problem is that Workshop have decided to release not one but 2 retro games this year that I am trying to capitalise on. I have two battle reports scripts at 50% and hopefully in Q4 I can sneak one or both of them out. Unless we get BFG or Mordheim…
i am currently building up a large collection of space marines from the legion imperialis but at the moment i am a bit bevind with the releases. i never played the original epic but i always wanted to (didn't have the money back then). i am looking forward for 40k epic because i would like to have a xenox army.
Great to see LImp content here. I think the rules confusion will only get worse with one supplement already out, another on the way and still some units not included. Rules are going to be split across different sections of different books. While I agree that a gradual release schedule can be good, the fact that Spartans and Land Raiders just arrived now means that lists are not available, core and iconic units, and that makes it hard to plan out your full initial list. There are conspiracy theories about why second edition was the basis here, ranging from 'second ed was from a time when it sold well and was a winner for GW' to 'the community has Epic Armageddon well supported and GW don't want to risk channeling new players to the fourth edition when they are done with LI'.
Playing this on a regular basis with a friend. It is a very fun game but we can both see all the time how some things can be exploited and how some other things simply doesn't work. Titans is one of those things. They are awesome models but if both sides has a titan and the other persons titan fall, that is basically GG for the other side.
I would love to play this system. Unfortunately, the guys I like arent in it. So hopefully enough people prefer the space marine battle anime power level "how many custodes could battle this primarch if he was at double extra super saiyan" setting to support it until it can become a real 40k game.
Epic Space Marine was the game that got me into the hobby, so I was initially excited by this and Adeptus Titanicus. I was then instantly disappointed to find it was Horus Heresy, meaning boring marine vs marine and no xenos (i.e. my boyz, the Orks)
The biggest error in LEGIONS IMO is the scenario win conditions and scoring. Its a game that FORCES everything to be constantly thrown onto capture points or you lose and most games are decided by turn 3. Epic Armageddon had the most PERFECT and balanced tournament scenario of all time, And you didn't even start checking for win conditions until turn 3!
its heresy era so probably never. Eldar and Orks feel on the table as options (which im disappointed they dont have), but Tau were in their Neolithic Era during this period
My issue with it is that the name heavily implies imperial forces only. Which to me means no xeno. Which to me is incredibly boring. I didn't want marines in 40k, or 30k, and I don't want them here either. Which is a shame cause I really love the idea of playing an army at this scale. Seems like wasted potential.
Having recently played a game of legions with my lads, and having played space marine 1st ed extensivly when i was a lad. Impressions, scale and models better, card counters much worse, no unit cards or buildings in the box, only two factions in the box, massive overcomplicated rule book. Overall thoughts, space marine 1st was better.
Being in a similar position I enjoyed our play through in store but it was annoying that when my son spent his birthday money on the box set I then had to put my hand in my pocket to buy some terrain. Game is unplayable without it. At least we can use 40k boards
Unfortunately in Australia, about 10 of us are rich enough to afford the box's retail price, but GW only sent us 3
Why does GW hate you guys in Australia? Did one of you guys beat up an English dude years ago?
The English exiled us to this god-forsaken hellhole for a reason, and they continue to punish us through GW.
@@ironbomb6753 it's not so much hate as I think we just aren't a profitable enough market. The number of people who engage with 40k products regularly can probably under 4 digits, so for them it's a lot of hassle for minimum gain. They might as well hike up the prices and sell their products to the whales while the rest of us learn the beauty of recasting
@@ironbomb6753 We're a captive market that is slavishly devoted to buying GW official. So they can fuck us however they like and we'll just throw money at them, hand over fist, and eagerly await the next round of contempt. That's changing now, SLOWLY, but still too close to the norm.
@@username12120 , bro, that sucks. I hope you guys can find your enjoyment beyond what GW does. Thanks for the reply. 💪👍
Horus Heresy, and Legio Imperialis has proven to me that the older game systems were fun not because they were simple, or fast. But because despite how complicated they were at the end of the day complex enough to be detailed, to allow for stories to be told. Aka FUN.
With 10th edition, it’s so hard to have fun because everyone just wants to win win win, but don’t ever want to tell a story.
I dunno.
Thats just me.
This is the best someone has described my entire issue with modern 40k and why i prefer the older editions
Simple systems are easy to learn, boring to master.
Complex systems are hard to learn, fun to master.
Wargames are supposed to make you feel like a commander moving real soldiers on a battlefield. Unfortunately this means they need to be somewhat complex, otherwise the immersion is ruined and you're just playing magic the gathering with soldier shaped tokens.
@@impguardwarhamer You 100% but into words my subconscious feeling towards 10th ed 40k.
Interesting. I've just started the hobby in 10th, about 50/50 playing narrative crusade and conpetitive matched play. We've had some pretty fun story moments, one of my Cadre Fireblades is now famous for bringing down a chaos knight with a lucky grenade toss after his squad was wiped, for instance. What kind of story moments did the older, more complicated rules lend themselves to? You've got me curious if it'd be worth trying to get my group to try an older edition now!
They're talking about how complexities makes games take longer and adds a chaotic type of unpredictability, which allows players to create narratives throughout the game, rather than just having a quick round of a simple game.
I don’t trust GW not to drop it and pretend it never existed as it has done for so many other games.
People said that about adeptus titanicus and thats still going strong. Theres certainly atleast 6-9 months of future content planed since we have a rulebnook and new minis confirmed. I wouldnt worry that much.
@@impguardwarhamer and with the legions imperialis package refresh and beta garmon supplemental set, once could argue that Titanicus is sort of living on symbiotically with LI w/r to model releases and datasheets. Especially since Titanicus is already a wholly contained and complete rules system, the models they design for Titanicus and LI pull double duty in a lot of cases. It's good use of internal resources.
Its been over 20 years and im still upset about Mordheim
I mean no matter what you can still play it
hell, I still play Warmaster lol
built my army out of granny gratings and tears and blood !
I mean like... Just keep playing after. You'll still have all the minis and rulebooks.
I could see expanding to the "Beast" timeline which would let you use most of the current range while adding in orks.
I guess it could give them a chance to rewrite the worst lore in the setting.
You're saying that like gw will make any units for xenos.
I do tend to enjoy these smaller 20-15-8mm sized miniature games myself these days, smaller tables and/or just fielding bigger armies without a huge unreasonable table.
Same reason I've been so into Kill Team & Warcry lately.
Relatively cheap, small team to build/paint, and quick/small games.
Plus, most AoS/40k armies can be worked into a Compendium Kill Team
Guys... I think he might like Epic Armageddon... But that's just a guess
Having played both Space Marine/Titan Legions and Epic Armageddon, EA is a vastly superior game system and it feels like a backward step for GW to revert back to the Space Marine rules. Rescaling the miniatures from 6mm to 8mm was also not a good move as it invalidated existing players armies who otherwise may have given this a go.
EA in my eyes is a better game in every department except for one fairly minor thing.
Did I have fun with Space Marine/Titan Legions in its time? Yes
Would I play Space Marine/Titan Legions/Legions Imperialis over EA? No
Regarded by Jervis Johnson and Rick Priestley as the best rules set they’ve ever written. It’s far and away superior to 40k
What makes you think this?
@@Stuffandstuff974 think what?
@@stevenbaker3593 sorry buddy, my comment was towards OP saying he thinks he likes Epic Armageddon. I've watched the video and I just don't know why thinks that 🤔
The best thing about this game is the flexibility of the rules. My own group has basically revised about a half dozen rules or stat lines and added things like downed aircraft and ammo-racked tanks. Having all the stats and rules condensed into a single collection instead of spread out over multiple codex launches that are widely spaced over 3 years makes it easier to do house-tweaks.
I'm curious about what rules you came up with for representing Ammo Racking and downed planes?
Excellent video! The best thing about Legions Imperialis is how enthusiastic it's made me to get back into Space Marine/Titan Legions again! I love the old game. There is so much written material about the early Epic days that you can get wonderfully lost in it all. Crucially, the game - and GW in general - was less up its own arse back then.
Unit activation (alternative activation) is simply the best thing what can happen in a wargame.
AT is one of if not our favorite wargame now.
The only army activation game what I play is Warmaster Revolution.
I liked the video! You said the most important part that a lot of people seem to have missed: the game is fun even with its flaws. I am really hoping that with the GW tournament concluded they release some errata to fix some of the more obvious stuff!
As for rules, I just use new recruit for unit stats that were released in expansions and if they deliver some good extra content (and I can actually buy it) I might purchase the book itsself
My heart aches seeing the old pictures
Were are the Dachshunds ? 0o great vid
I just _really_ wish it wasn't Horus Heresy. As a primarily xenos player, that stuff just bores me to tears.
My hope is that they at least open it up to the great crusade and give us some of the weirder stuff as single-box armies. The Compliance of Murder and The Triumph at Ullanor would be amazing as campaign supplements.
@@michaelstevens5712 Great Crusade titanicus would of been perfect, man. Everyone has their best weapons and we'd have a game for every time period*. Horus Heresy, Great Crusade, modern 40K.
*: Besides War in Heaven, Age of Strife, Unification Wars, Dark Age of Technology, Etc Etc
It’s relatively easy to make your own xeno army with what rules we have already.
Would *have*. Or would've. Not "would of".
@@michaelstevens5712 I won't lie, I think this would be great. A campaign box of War of the Beast or the War in Heaven would be so cool because you have four unique factions you can run in Epic Scale with that. Aeldari and Necrons or the Orks and Mechanicus (The War of the Beast has Space Marines, but Mechanicus do play a semi-important role)
Thanks for another great video. I'd be tempted to paint any Legion Imperialis minis in full 2nd Ed colour.
For expanding into Xenos? Keep it historical. For Orks? Rise of the Beast. From there, do Imperial Guard with Armageddon. Eldar? Fall of Iyanden, which also means Tyranids. Just have a strictly common rule set, so we can do “what if?” games.
Making Leman Russ such an obvious staple and then making them impossible to get outside of the core set feels like GW is just begging us to shop third party. Actually a lot of the scarcity of this game feels this way.
I have to say that I play Epic Armagueddon with 30k armies since 5-6 years and its rocks. I've try Legion Imperialis and still prefer Epic Armagueddon (Net Epic)
This is one of the better reviews I've seen/ read so far. You hit the right points and summarize it perfectly: it's flawed, but IT'S FUN.
My personal biggest issue with LI is the strange way GW filled out their infantry sprues. If you want more tactical Marines, you're also getting more dreads and special weapons, which you're probably not going to use. Or the weird inclusion of just two assault Marines per sprue, meaning you need four sprues to get one full detachment.
And don't get me started on the Astartes support sprue, or the SA infantry sprue.
I've found that house rules are the go-to to make it less complicated/ unbalanced and more fun.
In the US, for some fucking reason, only the Space Marine infantry box is sold out 90% of all the time.
I think I go you go is not feasible anymore. Alternating activations are just so much more engaging. I don't want to play 40k anymore because it is so boring to wait and die.
Even better (at least for narrative play) is the system used in bolt action where activation is more random. Wonder if we would have seen this in 40k had Priestley not moved upstairs and ultimately left
@@davidkimball5222 Yeah, random shit could be much more fun. Like the many dice you roll in War Cry for initiative and spells
It's hard to determine how many will play a game when people that want to can't purchase the required components. Personally, not having Xenos makes it less enjoyable. Oh, and I don't think it was on accident Warhounds being 330 and having 2, it means 1500pts+ before you can use them (one on each side), and that means filling out the rest of the forces, AND making a second box less viable to do so.
What I like in Warmaster is the lack of "herohammer". There is no single big hero model or great monster dominating the field. A hero or monster or wizard is something that chips in to bring one decisive engagement up to snuff. And it sounds like this idea is somewhat around in Epic too. A titan-class unit does not dominate all there is.
Cheers for the review. Most informative (and amusing). I'm intrigued by your comment about Warmaster dying due to scenery issues, though. If you get the chance, could you elaborate? I suspect I might know what you mean but you never know!
Warmaster is a great game, but IIRC scenery was only available via Forgeworld which was pretty hard to get. It also suffered from not having a living ruleset (Like Bloodbowl) or playtest rules in WD (like BFG and Mordheim), support being a separate magazine from White Dwarf (Warmaster Mag IIRC), being released at the time specialist games were being marginalised and at the time where GW was cost cutting in all areas (1999-2001). You could probably make a case for it being too "thinky" as well as not having enough miniatures for the audience of painters to latch onto. Great game though.
@@OldenDemon Yes, that's what we found when playing it. They supported the figures (kind of) but not the environment. Of course it's lived on, as has net EA and so on, and is now pretty fleshed out (and clearly spawned Black Powder and Blitzkrieg Commander et al). As you say, great game. The only annoying thing was that the rank-and-flankiness got a bit too involved (certainly for my kids, although that was clearly a draw for many more hardcore gamers) so I've modified it to chunking on 40x40 bases (so you can have individual cavalry in wedges and so on - looks fantastic). I do fear that LIMP (or Epic 30K as we should clearly be calling it so far) is going to go the same way as its predecessors (and Warmaster/BFG/Man O'War etc) and get deprecated before it really gets going, not least as business-types are running GW now, rather than hobbyists. Ho hum. Nice to see tiny tanks back, though, isn't it? Not least as I have a resin printer! Cheers again for the vid (and the reply) and I've subscribed as I'm a fan of both wargames and gentle sarcasm 😆.
I think a big part of the color mush problem with Imperialis’s color scheme is the fact that GW chose the Death Guard as the Imperialis poster boys. I understand that most people are tired of Ultramarines but the dull sickly color of the Pre-Nurgle Death Guard just blend in with the urban setting most of the promotional material take place on. I think that Blood Angles or Emperor’s Children would’ve made the art pop a lot more.
I think the biggest problem on the colour front is the actual setting itself. For the most part, the legions were just mono colour schemes. Red, white, blue, green etc etc. Colours on this level need some form of large spot colour to break things up. At 28mm, gun cases and trim etc are sufficient to break things up but at 8mm/epic scale colour variety is important. Solar auxilia don't just have to be grey, like I think the calth and ultramarine aligned auxilia are blue and so on
Feels bad to not really surport the "new" game, but with marines only being limited to mk6, and the undercuts, I'd probably have to limit myself to 3d printed infantry if I did get involved in this system. Helps keep the cost down to, which makes it feel even more appealing.
Anyone else notice he's possibly got Helldivers 2 CEO and now creative director Johan Pilestedt subbed to him at 11:18?
The twitter charcter limit bit is pretty good, havnt watched the rest but that was clever😊
great video man, super in depth and I hope to see more
Yooo, a call out WizKids Pirates!
I cracked open my tin of ships the other day just to relive some memories.
Hi-five! I randomly broke out my box of them last week! So cute.
Painted every titan, knight and space marine kit thats been released so far, but its still bloody hard to get here in norway
Great review!
Honestly shocked they decided to make this a Horus Heresy spin off game, rather than tapping into the infinite money an Epic 40k reboot would generate.
Why shocked? This is done by the much smaller Specialist Designs Studio team. Full epic would be too big of a project. Also SDS aren’t strictly allowed to make 40k products.
@@TheBroz Sounds like an internal problem.
@@ExtradaemonYTVery much, but that’s the reason and it ain’t gonna change any time soon.
@@TheBroz They brought back Old World, they can bring back Epic.
Dood! Spot on and great perspectives. I don't think there was anything to disagree with. My biggest gripe is the BS rules or scattered rules at best. The biggest worry sinking money into this was the rules but I've been playing wargames long enough to adapt the play however we want and still enjoy the heck out of it. Looking forward to more EPIC SHIT from you bruh!
I honest to god want to see how custodes would play in this would they be like a every squad is just a single custodes so its a hero hammer army with like maybe 80 heroes total at 3k points versus the several hundred units of space marines it be like lore accurate ish
Love your stuff and I'm enjoying all your videos so far.
This is the first review I've seen from a person who's clearly actually played the game. Great review, thanks!
This is a great video, as usual. Im really happy to see a decrese in the ai generated imagery here. I didnt have a problem with it, but the stock images and photos have a different, nicer feel.
I do miss the daschunds, though :’(
LI has become my favourite game. Its my ma8n focus for this year. My LI game group has grown from me alone to 7 players since January. We've started a campaign and have a few more people coming to watch every month too.
The best thing to do with legions imperialis is play epic armageddon, and get some 3d printed epic orks or Nids to go along with it
Very well put together video, thank you for your effort. I learnt stuff and enjoyed your humour
I absolutely love your instinct to modify and release your own rules! I’m into it!
id love that rules breakdown/user errata video
I would love to see a series, with updated rules and how to play the game!😊
Been loving the game so far, within the confines of my very casual gaming group as you identify.
Thanks for mentioning about the refrence sheet... definetely been doing all of those things wrong thanks to it!
Great vid!
I've painted a starting force of Dark Angels, adding a unit about once a week, but my area is starved for AL players. Might have to travel to play :(
i really like LIMP, its currently my go to wargame. It is flawed in terms of not having the units it needs just yet, and i have some nit picks, but as a basis it just feels so good to play, and its easy enough to get into ive been able to get a friend of mine who normaly dont play these games to start playing it regularly.
Also, i printed 2 emperor titans (imperator and warmonger), and me and my friends made house rules for em and now play with em quite frequently, especially for narrative games. We made em 2000 points tho
Also, yes, the cardboard tokens are awful, so i just printed some order dials instead, works much better
And yeah, the ptitan plasma weapons are just, sad. Me and my friends decided to give it blast 3" just so it would be more interesting because otherwise they are just inferior to everything else.
Thunderhawks are basicly a must have for space marines because they are just THAT good and lets you transport dreadnoughts, especially leviathans, into battle and wreck serious face.
I could go on, but frankly, i dont wanna write the equivalent of a 2 hour long video essay
LEGIONS IMPERIALIS!! Flawed System! Great game!
One thing I feel deserves mentioning: these kits are bloody wonderful.
The space marine infantry is decent, the dreads are pretty good, but the drop pods and thunderhawk are some of the most wonderful kits I've ever built.
The box is designed to split down the middle and the problem gets even worse. That said, i think the box is meant to be a taster, giving the person/people who buy it the ability to try out all the mechanics: infantry, walkers, tanks and titans. The forces are relatively balanced from what ive seen so i think thats the mind set behind it.
Nice review, thanks. Nurgle Bless.
Just as a point of note, the release of the Vanguard box set with speeders and bikes makes the Space Wolves have a purpose against far more enemies as they also prevent outflank moves within 8”.
Loving this game honestly. Just how it looks alone on the table is inspiring. Alternating activations are the biggest win IMO.
I wish i could field an epic army of orks. But i suppose i might get the chance sometime in the future
Hit the nail on the head. I have such unbelievable buyers remorse after investing into LI… such a shame it’s a dead game. I was so excited.
I can’t see myself buying into any other GW game outside my existing 40K armies now, and even in those my favourite models are added to legends and my hobby time outright trashed.
Love the Tony Soprano ending 🤣
I've got the box, as yet unassembled because I'm about to move, but I'm still really excited for LI. Great video, lots of great points.
I bought the big box, plus some add-ons, kept the rules and sold the figures. You see, only when I had the game did I realised my old eyes (even with glasses) were just not good enough to play at the epic scale. Loved your review.
Hi, I work with a lot of “three letter acronym” organizations and having an air-gapped BU doesn’t prevent internal communication. There is such thing as one way channel of information :)
Two words, Capitol Imperialis, big brick on tracks, loved it ❤. As per, brilliant episode with the ever groovey dinner jazz. But as previously mentioned, wor ist die kleine hunds bitte?
I've actually been building my own version of epic around a scaled up catan board and scaled down epic miniatures probably shrinking to the point that infantry are too small to really see which all makes it an entirely different game that might as well have it's own original factions instead of being warhammer epic at all but that gives me the freedom to make whatever will make the game more fun. Lets have spaceships be part of it with spaceships moving a number of hex while everything on the ground can only move a distance within a hex and little battles can occur on a spaceship while it's moving...
As someone that has been fed up with GW for a few years now, the main reason I got Imperialis is to use the models for Battletech. The infantry and most vehicles are perfect for combined arms in Battletech.
I really love this game, all points made are valid here. I've basically just subscribed to the game and buy 1-2 of everything that comes out because the mini's are so much fun to build and paint...like WAY more fun that anything 28mm
in regards to your index comment. i have no idea why GW stopped printing good indexes at the back of book. WHFB 8th index was perfect. everything you need is in it. TheOldWorld index is ok, but not as good.
This confuses me alot as they used to make books so well, and then all of a sudden, when 8th 40k and AOS came out, they decided that they wanted to strip books down to the bare minimum.
hell, even necromundas most up to date rule book is fantastic. IT EVEN HAS A BOOK MARK TASLE
Sure, the concept of the game sounds fun to me. I'll wait on it until I can play Tau or the Steel Legion, though.
LI is a game i relegated to the spot of "We will watch your career with great interest"
I dont care about it now but it has the potential to get me excited if maybe it had more armies like mechanicum or xenos
Most folks looking to field xenos troops might not remember that original epic was pretty much HH. They introduced more races as it went along. I got the sets abd they are nice abd the rules are pretty easy. Looking forward to playing.
The thing is... I was excited till they said it was horus heresy only.
It is like old world where I want to dive in, but GW has made it clear whole armies are just never coming (worse for this though, as we aren't even getting non space marine imperium/rebels)
I guess I will be waiting a bit longer before diving head first into Imperialis.
I do find 40k tables absolutely jammed on every square inch with models or terrain totally characterless and unappealing. This games seems very intersting.
Yoo didnt expect to see spire in here. The sequel game, Heart, is my favorite rpg of all time.
I really enjoy LI, but I am a narrative player, not a competitive one. But I have my share of problem with the rules (like rending) and game design (like weapons profiles / no weapon costs) or even the fact, that i have to carry 2 rule books around, still I really enjoy painting and playing this scale.
I stepped away from 40k, when 8. edition was released, switching over to Horus Heresy, which is still my mainstay game up to date. When Titianicus and Aeronautica (re)released, because those "smaller" scale games is something i always wanted. Even back when Epic was still a thing, i was staring at the models and always wanted to get some, but being a at uni, they were not in my financial reach.
Now i just sit here and enjoy the system, 3d printing more stuff as i write this (Mastodons, Fellblades, Glaives and many many many other Marks of armours)
How about those Arvus Lighter models with weapon options but no armed Arvus rules to be seen?
The weapons are optional components on the sprue, so I'm not really going to complain about extra bits.
Same in America. I had to sell my car, loose my wife, my kids don't talk to me and my car is about to be repoed. All to buy.....
One space marine.
Worth it!
Love this review and the causal lounge piano in the background 😂
Have played several games recently as, much like yourself have been in love with Epic since it was space marine. One regular opponent has plenty of time on his hands and some of the broken things he has realised due to the lack of clarity on certain rules is ridiculous, like the other night, starting his Thunderhawk in skimmer mode on the board in turn one, zipping across the board and not being able to be targeted by anti air and dripping off his leviathans for a charge in turn one... All due to certain clarity on specific rules.
But as you say, new game, let's see whether they fix things or leave it broken.
Funny thing is that there are people in this comment section arguing that uncertainty around rules actually makes the game better.
to be honest I could see why people call Legions Imperialis dead, because GW has a bad habit of making a game system and when it doesn't double the profits of they're mainline game that's been out since the 80s they abandon it... meaning that all the models, books, etc are now only available for 3D printing and the second hand market, which in effect does kind of kill the game, for examples look at Battlefleet Gothic, Aeronautica Imperialis, and Space Hulk
I’m not sure those examples back up your theory. BFG was a 6 month release job and pushed to specialist games when that was a think, AI was a closed system that couldn’t go past a certain point unless they wanted to add more flyers into the game and Space Hulk has been a one and done board game since the 80’s
I miss blast markers
Great roundup and agree with pretty much every point. Warhounds being 330 seems like a misprint from an older version where it was 33% or a third and then they changed their mind but forgot to change the hounds.
About rules we prefer classic Epic 40k (also, we can use more armies than marines). And about prices, if GW is usually stupid, the cost of Legions is just over the top. Just 3D print whatever you need and play with better rules.
I was going to say that this was a great and nuanced review of the game, but with that Dreadfleet shade all I can do is shake my head mournfully
It was a fine game, but 3 copies was overkill
I love the cover of the book :) It's very serious looking. I agree with the lack of illustrations inside, it's very...daunting, but it's very heresy like.
Is.. that ko-fi member Johan Pilestedt the Arrowhead games CEO??? :D
Seen the video thrice, first at work, the relistned at work but more focus, than at home, slighty drunk a third time but now watching along viewing. A damn fine game review #3rdEditionEpicFFS
Your commitment is appreciated
I don't know why the Knight Macarena is so hard to pronounce, heeeey Macarena!
Hello!
Love your channel - posted on another video but would love you to do some other WD Battle Reports!
If you're having trouble finding them, the facebook 2e 40k group has a pdf of ALL the 2nd edition battle reports ever published, and it's really interesting as there are some in there that I never knew existed!
Ones that would be worth looking at that you havn't done include:-
WD 171 - Witch hunt. The Dark Millenium BR, and it's really good.
WD 187 - Heretec! Big Tank battle
WD 194 - Civil War. Two tournament winners fight
WD 202 - The Lurking horror. A great BR between Space wolves and Tyranids with a huge twist.
WD 219 - Ambush. Actually a lovely BR with two really well composed armies. Shame about the photography.
WD 212 - Last Stand. The last 2e BR, and it's AMAZEBALLS. I'll let you discover why...
just some ideas!
best dude.
Thanks, I believe I have the file in question as well as hard copies of all the reports from this era, the problem is that Workshop have decided to release not one but 2 retro games this year that I am trying to capitalise on. I have two battle reports scripts at 50% and hopefully in Q4 I can sneak one or both of them out. Unless we get BFG or Mordheim…
I'll be intrested when they release the other factions and not just horus heresy.
I'm probably going to wait a couple of years until they come out with 2nd edition with collected annuals and everything before getting into it.
i am currently building up a large collection of space marines from the legion imperialis but at the moment i am a bit bevind with the releases. i never played the original epic but i always wanted to (didn't have the money back then). i am looking forward for 40k epic because i would like to have a xenox army.
Great to see LImp content here. I think the rules confusion will only get worse with one supplement already out, another on the way and still some units not included. Rules are going to be split across different sections of different books.
While I agree that a gradual release schedule can be good, the fact that Spartans and Land Raiders just arrived now means that lists are not available, core and iconic units, and that makes it hard to plan out your full initial list.
There are conspiracy theories about why second edition was the basis here, ranging from 'second ed was from a time when it sold well and was a winner for GW' to 'the community has Epic Armageddon well supported and GW don't want to risk channeling new players to the fourth edition when they are done with LI'.
Stock issues? You still pay for gw models?
Playing this on a regular basis with a friend. It is a very fun game but we can both see all the time how some things can be exploited and how some other things simply doesn't work.
Titans is one of those things. They are awesome models but if both sides has a titan and the other persons titan fall, that is basically GG for the other side.
Firmly suppressed emotions, like every good Englishman!
I would love to play this system. Unfortunately, the guys I like arent in it. So hopefully enough people prefer the space marine battle anime power level "how many custodes could battle this primarch if he was at double extra super saiyan" setting to support it until it can become a real 40k game.
This was a great video, and its a great game, really enjoying it and we are running a 12 person campaign at our local store :)
Epic Space Marine was the game that got me into the hobby, so I was initially excited by this and Adeptus Titanicus. I was then instantly disappointed to find it was Horus Heresy, meaning boring marine vs marine and no xenos (i.e. my boyz, the Orks)
The biggest error in LEGIONS IMO is the scenario win conditions and scoring. Its a game that FORCES everything to be constantly thrown onto capture points or you lose and most games are decided by turn 3. Epic Armageddon had the most PERFECT and balanced tournament scenario of all time, And you didn't even start checking for win conditions until turn 3!
We needed a version 2 of the rules from day one, but it's still fun to play
Would be curious for your opinions on Kill Team and Warcry, and how you feel they stack up to GW's older, skirmish games.
Why o wehy did they just not bring back the original Epic. Could have got loads o new players invested.
Lovely review! I'll probably buy into this when they release T'au for it
its heresy era so probably never. Eldar and Orks feel on the table as options (which im disappointed they dont have), but Tau were in their Neolithic Era during this period
@@Crushanator1 ah well, guess I won't then!
My issue with it is that the name heavily implies imperial forces only.
Which to me means no xeno.
Which to me is incredibly boring. I didn't want marines in 40k, or 30k, and I don't want them here either.
Which is a shame cause I really love the idea of playing an army at this scale. Seems like wasted potential.
Having recently played a game of legions with my lads, and having played space marine 1st ed extensivly when i was a lad. Impressions, scale and models better, card counters much worse, no unit cards or buildings in the box, only two factions in the box, massive overcomplicated rule book. Overall thoughts, space marine 1st was better.
Being in a similar position I enjoyed our play through in store but it was annoying that when my son spent his birthday money on the box set I then had to put my hand in my pocket to buy some terrain. Game is unplayable without it. At least we can use 40k boards