I have to say this to you JMulls.. You are not alone.. We love the game too we critique the game because we love it and we will not close our mouth because of toxic community in FFXIV
yoshi p said on his early presentation on ARR that a critique is worth more than a praise in terms on feedback also if the public is vocal is a sign that they care
@@RasnerG There is a difference between criticism and what I see a lot of FFXIV fans complaining about. It's not cool to harass others when giving that feedback though.
@@fredy2041 and where i said i was harassing the va, her job was bad along with the most english cast even the old ones that we know so the ones to blame are the direction of all of it, so where i said that I am harassing her.
@@cynthiahembree3957 that is due to the toxic behaviour of social media and even more twitter/x where there is a pool of thoxic behaviour being unchecked
@@RasnerG yoship also said that forgetting your core audience is a surefire way to ruin the game... then he catered to game to a completly different audience. The ARR presentation slides that you can find are basically contradicting everything that SE does today in FFXIV
Imo FFXIV twitter is way more of a defense squad than FFXIV reddit is. This problem is now it is finally highly visible since Dawntrail is highly divisive in general.
@@bekir51500 It's damn near impossible to say anything critical about FF14 practically anywhere on the internet without being called names and put down. It's like criticizing BG3 or any Fromsoft game released in the past 15 years. Doesn't matter if the criticisms are objectively correct, people are seemingly not allowed to criticize them.
Toxic positivity but the NA VA for Wuk Lamat is actively calling people that don’t like like “Smile” racist because apparently “it was noticed that a certain group don’t like it because it sounds like black gospel” (???) while also not providing proof. Idk it’s a bold statement. But also remember the whisper yelling of “ SpheEene” in the final boss. Idk man
@@gzuskreist1021 its not just the VA, its the character itself. wuk it a shitshow of a character with zero interesting hooks or themes. the VA's subpar performance at BEST is just the icing on the cake.
Yeah, that racism claim is enough to make me withhold any further goodwill. And I do hope Bryer got a stern talking to over that, as the casting was enough controversy. How hard is it for people to just not attack the customers?
It's even worse. Bryer was actively demanding a female VA to not voice a trans character because she wasn't trans. Then, months later, she a trans accepts voicing Wuk Lamat who is biologically female. Again, no interest in identity or gender BS, just pointing out that all around she is clearly in over her feelings about stuff, ready to raise her voice BUT when it matters the most, when it affects her, she'll stay silent and do the exact same thing she was telling others not to do. Her calling people racists over Smile just further lowers any shred of goodwill I might have towards her because it means that she does the usual tactic of idiotic people to take the most negative, toxic comments and use those to paint the entire group of critics in order to not address or accept criticism, or, maybe, just to cope.
The Twitter community is especially bad about this. They are willing to go so far to defend this story that I've seen people say if you dislike Wuk Lamat then you are a "miserable" person. I'm not just talking about the people accusing critics of the character of being bigots, either. There are people who will try to gaslight you into believing you're the problem because "You don't like the energetic, peace loving heroine." It's gross, really. Nevermind that Wuk has a lot of problems as a character, including being a smothering presence for a ton of people. They can keep yapping, but I refuse to let them have that kind of leverage.
It's not just FF players, but they have the most from my experience. No matter how well put, respectful and no matter how much i clarify that it is simply my opinion and not gospel, they will unleash utter hatred for you if you even "talk bad" about FF14. It's not just that, there's plenty of Duty Finder stories where some people enable a toxic player cause they're "Just playing the game in a way they want to play it". i love the game. I love it enough that i want it to be the best it can be. So i still point out the flaws and what it can do better.
And hey, I think you're doing good in that regard mate. I personally enjoyed my time with Dawntrail, going through it with my girlfriend who enjoyed it becsuse Tural and it's areas reminded her a lot of where she grew up. And I enjoyed hearing her just find such joy is all the litter references to food that she's grown up with, as well as how even some areas actually reminded her of her hometown. But I'll never act like the expansion is flawless. Nothing ever is. And I do have my own problems with Dawntrail, like it's pacing, Wuk Lamat getting 90% of character development compared to other characters (I still love her as a character though deapite it, i just think the hyper focus is a writing problem), Krile being kinda sidelined until the final area, and even some voice acting here and there. All that said, I still enjoyed my time in Tural. But it's always important to critic things and let the devs know so they can improve. :)
The Destiny 2 community is like this as well, but multiplied by 100. The amount of times I've been brutally honest about the game only to be attacked is mind-blowing. I'm now just sitting back and watching Destiny 2 die slowly because the community created that monster, so they can now reap the consequences of said monster
I noticed this during EW (which I and others did not like very much). I blame this partly because social media sites (like reddit) are built in such a way that they promote bubbles and group-think. And a lot of content creators... really like going to FanFest.
It drives me insane how many people defended endwalker patch content, calling you sweaty no-lifers every time you criticize the lack of replayability of everything in general and the laziness of manderville relics
I kinda gave EW's lack of content a pass because of Covid19. There were obvious technical issues and a lot of stuff seemed behind schedule, including the stormblood ultimate which ended up getting canceled/pushed back
I feel that Bakool Ja Ja's came out of nowhere, he does a complete 180 with no foreshadowing or buildup. He gets no comeuppance for any of his crimes, he just tells a sob story, and Wuk Lamat just goes "You're pretty cool actually.". I thought Estinien and Thancred backing Koana would cause some real conflict and divide between the scions, and I thought the cooking trial would also pair our team with one of the mamool teams, but no, any potential for interesting dynamics and interactions is immediately quashed in favour for the quick and predictable route.
There were a bit of foreshadowing with bakooler, but it's highly covered up by Wuk's POV, as well as "world building" quests where you talk to X to automatically do trading. So, it kinda sucks how the pacing and direction of some scenes are really.
I feel Bakool Ja Ja was actually handled about as well as he COULD have been handled within the confines of the FFXIV MSQ. He's no Fordola, sure, but Bakool Ja Ja was basically meant to be a petty criminal and bully... and he's meant to show that such people can be reformed if given the chance to. This COULD have been dragged out longer and had stronger beats in the story, but I don't think the writers plan to really revisit him in the near future. I think he was just a one-and-done side character, so his development arc ends up feeling rushed.
@@DrakeWurrum I disagree, at the very least they could have changed alot of his smaller moments. Like with Valigarmanda he could be less of a haha evil guy and more doing it out of a sense of desperation. Similarly we could have been paired with him during the cooking trial which could have made some really cool character dynamic. Plus it would help us tap more into Bakool Ja's Ja's character instead of just making a compete 180 with all of 5 minutes of forshadowing
Predictable doesnt immediately mean bad. You could say somethings badly written but just because something has a different dynamic doesnt mean its gonna turn out any better, its like removing what you want to happen vs critiquing what actually yappens
I have seen someone unironically say/type something to the extent of "to be fair, you have to be very intelligent to understand Dawntrail". I hope I never see anything like that ever again from either side of the DT aisle. Or in any fandom.
....the fuck? As someone who genuinely enjoyed Dawntrail, I can't at all fathom why anybody would say that. It's not a very deep story, it's simple and straightforward.
@DrakeWurrum lol its a meme phrase to make fun of the rick & morty show. i highly doubt it was serious, it is more likely it was used to make fun of DT rather than defend it
The voice actor must spend all of his effort to sound like a woman, he's 100% unable to have ANY range of emotion because he's gonna start sounding like Hulk Hogan if he tries. Baffling times we live in where people just won't say it out loud.
My biggest complaint with the game, that unfortunately will never be changed, is the design of dungeons. Im so fatigued of the only thing dungeons are being wall to wall pulls with 3 bosses. Its been the exact same since late heavensward.. thats almost 10 years! But i know this cannot and will not change, because ive played long enough to see what happens when dungeons arent the hallways we currently have. To combat this, what i really want is variant dungeons to do away with the 3 path lock system, and instead just design the variant dungeon as one large dungeon, with a limit of how many bosses you can kill.
Those aside, my other critique is how the boss arena looks so obviously like a boss arena. It's always a perfect square or circle. I know they sometimes use the arena itself for mechs and/or to clue us in on them, but still they need to be more creative about these boss arenas.
@@Reaper1722 Sadly, I think they do this for the ever expanding size of healer abilities and ranges. If the arena was oblong or oddly shaped, you'll end up with a situation where the weird ranged DPS off in Narnia doesn't get heals (their own fault) and they blame the healer for not being closer to them. Then healers get burned out and without healers, the queues are terrible.
They need to do it in a way that makes the dungeons more creative. For instance, don't make it a linear path, make it multiple, and depending on which objectives you do, you get rewarded better. Mid bosses need to be a little bit stronger and D.T at least started in a good direction with this. Also I feel the mobs should be more interesting. Make them do mechanics like look away, big aoes, magnet things, just like the A-rank hunts.
@@Yokai_Yuri Problem with multiple paths is that eventually the player base will decide on one optimal path and they will complain or even kick you if you go the wrong way. Look at Shatasha for example. You COULD go around to the side rooms and get all the chests, but most players just want to get through that dungeon ASAP. Even having different mechanics on the boss due to what you do in the dungeon would eventually meet the meta hammer and you would be forced to do it a particular way. Consider the Arboretum HM, what if the final boss did different mechanics if you didn't wash off the enemies beforehand. If these mechanics are easier, then the meta will become leave the enemies muddy - and lord help you if you turn on the spigot and mess up the dungeon run for everyone. I don't disagree that we need some variety and a little change up now and then - I just know that eventually it will become the norm that you MUST do the dungeon in a particular way or risk reprisal if you don't.
@Yokai_Yuri they did do scaling rewards for performance in 1.0, and people despised it so much they overcorrected to the early 2.0 dungeons. They used to have multiple paths in earlier dungeons with objectives but those got remade out of the game due to complaints. Thats why I say it can't and won't change, cause they've done it before and had so many complaints that it's just what we have now
After I finished DT and started diving into the community thoughts to see if there was any validation for my own or any counterpoint I was unable to initially see, the one thing that ruined my experience with the game the most were these kinds of people. For every negative point anyone had, there were zero logical counterpoints. It always dwindled down to name calling and blaming things on personal taste. Hopefully the dev team listens with a tempered ear and the game does make the changes needed to move the game into the next decade. The battle design this time around being a good start. Ten more years of the same formula won’t hold up. Even too much of a good thing eventually becomes boring.
This honestly. I enjoyed DT, but get crucified for saying I enjoyed it. I didn't mind wuk lamat, but income the misogynists or the transphobes...its like...did you not like it or are you projecting? What did you not like? Are you saying "pacing" because every creator said they had issues with pacing, or do you even have a thought?
@@Canned_Corn_isgoodThere is quite a lot that can be criticized about DT's story. Wuk just gets the most attention, because she is there for every single moment. The scions not really participating, you just standing around while Gulool Ja Ja gets killed, important characters, like Koana, not getting the screentime they deserve... As for harassment, both side seem to have some really rabid people. From the Woke Lamat crowd, to the people who immeditly call you ist or phobe is you dare to say anything bad about her, even if you in no way shape or form mention the voice actor. Just yesterday, under Zepla's highlight video, there was a dude going after everybody who had a negative opinion on DT. It is like the floodgates have been opened, now that negative opinions are accepted and some people go way too far with it while other can't handle this being a thing
@@tryagain6691Don't remind me of that stuff. I just choose not to say anything in my FC since I prefer not being called transphobic for disliking Wuk Lamat (I'm not transphobic, I love trans people. I protected a lot of them back in high school from assholes). That said, the voice actress hasn't been helping with stirring the pot online, going as far to imply players who dislike Smile are racist. I miss the days where if someone made such an outrageous statement, we'd all point and laugh at them. Now it's taken as gospel
The biggest problem with FF14, in my opinion, is that the people who built it long since left the company. So now you have this underlying code nobody knows how to work with anymore. Imo, that's why they for rid of TP, made all the jobs in their roles play similarly and you have ancient systems that don't get improved upon...because nobody knows how. Add to that most of the team being replaced by newblood over time and you understand why the passion that created FF14 2.0 is gone now. Dawntrail is just the part of the downwards spiral where people notice. It started when they changed how cross-class skills work and has been going on ever since.
Toxic positivity wasn't an issue when the story was good. I think Shadowbringers was the single greatest achievement in MMO history. I will caveat that with the fact that I did not experience all of it, as I jumped in about halfway through with the raiding side of things, and have yet to complete any Ultimates even to this day, but to me there was literally nothing to dislike about ShB. Post-MSQ Endwalker is where things started plummeting fast, I think the story around the Alliance raid was utterly forgettable. Post MSQ quests had their moments, but as I'm writing this I am struggling to name any characters from it. The gulf between the quality Ishikawa's writing and whoever came afterward is VAST. Add to that the mediocre voiceacting and horribly misplaced music, and now the formulaic nature of questing in 14 starts sticking out like a sore thumb too, making the overall experience just honestly offensively bad. For 40 something hours with so little gameplay and so much story, you HAVE to make a better story than this. Maybe it's cause I don't seek out janky games to play, but I have never before found a game to be offensively bad until I played DT MSQ. And some of that is down to how good the stuff that came before was, for sure. In a vacuum I wouldn't rate DT MSQ to be a 0/10, but with the context of just how good the story has been before, I can't help but wonder what the hell they were thinking at SE.
Yeah, I dunno about being the vocal minority on this, when I'm struggling to think of one video I've seen where people actually liked Dawntrail. And that one person was talking about 'Smile'. One person.
I apparently am also apart of the minority, cuz I really fucking loved DT and honestly I liked it more then hw mostly because of the theming and the zones.
My sub is running out in 8 days and I don't plan to change that fact at the moment. DT was the worst thing that could've happened to this game. The cherry on top was Wuk Lamat stealing your spotlight in the last trial, dealing way more damage than the freaking WoL.
So one problem with dawntrail criticism is one side loves it so much that these kind of people just attack others verbally just for not liking something Gods my head hurting cause of this fact being revealed to me
dawntrail really showed me how toxic the community can get...twitter and reddit are terrible places regardless but you really see the horrible side of it all on there and how so many ff players make the game their entire personality, Dawntrail is a slog through and through i do believe it would of never lived up to endwalker but regardless of that fact it should of still been a fun adventure with a story that grips you, what we got was akin to ARR alot of running back and forth with no real payoff in story beat's let alone the fact the EN voice acting was sub par at best for the first time in 6 years of playing i actually switched to JP VA it was that bad, now credit where credit is due the raids and post game content in general has been really fun and they have deffo stepped up the game....but you have to go throughs hours and hours of trash to even reach that point which can sour the mood.
What's important is to not consider anyone who likes dawntrail to be partaking in toxic positivity. Some people just like it, and that's okay. Everyone's opinion needs to be respected, but their actions should still be judged. For example, theres nothing wrong with disliking the voice acting, but harrassing the voice actors themselves is unacceptable. Likewise, it's fine to say thsy you liked the game, but you shouldn't insult people who are just expressing the opinion that they don't
doesn't help when you have people who actually put effort in their criticisms being muddled with those just calling something "bad" with no reasoning or thoughts. even then, it's like that with any community. there's no real justification for how annoying the people defending the story are.
DT's story pacing and focus were rough. That isn't to say the MSQ was bad, but it has a lot of problems and creates issues for the next set of expansions as it was ostensibly meant to be the setup for a new larger arc. Instead it became 'Wuk Lamat wants to become the Hokage' the expansion with every other major character development being shrunken or essentially glossed over. This includes the WoL's supposed position as 'mentor' to Wuk Lamat.
The reason why jobs are the way they are is because they tried that individuality in HW. Due to it some job not meshing well with others they got kicked or avoided. Did people forget that.
And now jobs are getting kicked and avoided because the only thing left to interact with is HP, and some jobs do that better than others. In a game that lets you change your job any time you like, why not give every job its own niche? In casual content, the differences would be negligible anyway, and hardcore content would encourage every player to find two or three jobs they enjoy. X|V's predecessor XI does this extremely well.
@@Stammer6 Thats not the same thing. If you were a mnk,brd,mch,pld in HW no one wanted you on their team because it was a dmg loss. This was due to the changes made to them. Yeah they were unique but that made it difficult to group with. These jobs were basicly dead. It also made balance hell to deal with because a change to one job could make it manditory in job comp. Things like brd/drg and pld slashing dmg. pld not being able to block magic was also an issue. So if they bring it back this will happen again in different flavors. People are already giving drk flack for its poor defence and lack of dmg. Most people who talk about homogenization didnt play 2.0 up to HW. There was a meta where NIN was a must on teams due to it being able to buff dmg and manage tanks aggro so tank could keep dmg up. So a dps slot was already taken before the comp was even made. The moment some content drops where 1 of the job shines brighter then the others. Players will mandate it. Once players start discriminating based on your main then we will be back to the HW issue. Its like going through hardships, fixing the problem, then having new blood that didnt know about the hardships trying to bring it back unknowingly. All they need to do is keep homogenization just enough to were 1 job doesnt out right over take the others. Jobs can pretty much do the same thing but just have different ways to get there.
job homogenaization is a necessary sacrifice to prevent toxic meta, as people who were around for HW know very well, and for the most part it worked out pretty well. The issue really is that some jobs fail pretty hard at delivering their aesthetics, while others don't. There's a reason people are complaining that DRK is still the exact same shit it's been since two expansions ago while WAR players are plenty happy with the job that's using the literal exact same combo since ARR with just some extra salt and pepper thrown into it each expansion. It's fine for all the jobs to do the same as long as they have different, thematically appropiate ways to get there. and honestly, tanks are having the worst of it by far. Most dps jobs have fairly defined, unique job identities despite this homogenization, and the healers actually feel quite distinct as the "I see damage, I erase the damage" mage, the "I akshually know the exact response to that problem" mage, the "I always plan four steps ahead" mage, and the "I got everything in control!" mage. tanks have the worst of being all the same job, but WAR has very strong aesthetics, PLD has extra team defense buttons, and GNB... at least has the uniqueness of being pointlessly busy despite not being any better at what it does. DRK got basically nothing that the other jobs don't have and is slacking on the aesthetic.
I don't hate wuk lamat because of whats between the voice actors legs, I hate the character because the english voice actors performance was shit and she was poorly written, Before even getting into the hot mess that was spheneeeeeeeeee, The way Wuk was written just made the character so....... inconsistent. Think about it, she throws up from seasickness 4 times, yet SOMEHOW got to Eorzea. She talks about how much she loves her home yet has apparently in all her years barely stepped out of the capital (Again how did she cross the sea?). Why did the writing staff not think to give her the fight first ask questions later traits of her father? Honestly can you imagine a cutscene starting with us trying to talk our way out as usual only for wuk to run in off scene, cut us off mid chat and just start the battle? Alisaie would of loved that, would of been brilliant. Shes the head of resolve AND a warrior. We've lost another chance of getting a good written axe wielding strong lady AGAIN, it was bad enough when we lost moenbryda!
tbh i only see critism of DT. Very rarely i see positive thoughts on it, But i dont use twitter or reddit bc these are awfull places in general. But UA-cam is full of critic towards DT. I liked DT. The dungeons, raids, trials, savage, crafter quests, music,experience gain from aglaia and fates and some of the job changes and new skills are all great. It has its weak points i agree, story and the overall voice acting was bad on many occasions. FFXIV won't die bc of it but like i said in the beginning i see more negative thoughts about DT here on UA-cam and rather rarely people attacking others for this opinion. I myself got attacked on comments bc i liked DT overall.
Same experience here. I fully enjoyed Dawntrail and think it's a good expansion, and anytime I dare to voice this, people just come and attack me for it. All i'm seeing is toxic NEGativity.
Depends on what content you are consuming mainly. UA-cam and sites track what you are watching and feed you things similar, putting you into a bubble unless you specifically look up stuff counter to what the algorithm feeds you. As for like or dislike the expansion, I think some people like some things in it, I myself liked some things, I enjoy Koana for instance, visuals and of course the gameplay content after the MSQ. Though I also dislike a bunch of things too. Many people just get emotional when the game that is their game gets positive or negative reactions. Both sides overeact because it is an emotional response rather then rational, look at WOWs community during Shadowlands for instance. As for what some ones opinion is on stuff, you like it or dislike it, thats fine and valid. Every game has people who like them or dislike them, even some that are seen as very bad by the majority still have player bases who adore them. Though I do hope FF14s team continues to try and improve what they are doing and fix issues that a majority of the player base points out and that is my opinion.
@@eternaljohhny4908 you are right and like 80% of the content creator and their comment sections i normaly watch bash DT. And in these comment sections i got attacked multiple times for liking most of DT. The story is bad and the va's are bad this time, at least the english ones. I changed it to japanese and german, much better. I hope too that the team takes the feedback and improves again on the story. But overall i enjoy DT much more then Heavensward or ARR on release. Heavensward especially was a shitshow.
@@phbaum6186See, I think the VA’s did great. They weren’t given the most to work with, which harms people’s reception (ignoring the bigot responses, that were just stupid and louder than anything else). I think they tried to throw too much at the wall without delving into the details they should have to make the story richer. Honestly? I thought that terrible song and Wuk’s overly positive approach was a way of poking at the toxic positivity in the community.
It is important to keep giving feedback. Both positive and negative. Yoshida is a person that understands that he and his team have to continue to improve the game. He knows he operates in an economy of attention, and must continue to develope the game in a way that keeps the players attention. It's why his team is very receptive to feedback. But as with most things, change may make 1 group of people happy, but can also make another unhappy. So its always a tight rope walk when implementing changes. For example,1 recent change that didnt get pushed through in the 7.05 patch, was the removal of aome positionals for Viper. They had planned to make adjustments there, but saw an overwhelming pushback agaunst this, so they left it be, and only removed the debuff.
6:10 You brought up such good points only to use THAT as your example of a "problem" 1. How is that a problem or to have any actual impact on the story in any way? 2. living memory was impactful because you turn it off, not because it existed as a "surprise" even though it was hinted multiple times and even directly spelled out for us in some text lines before getting there. What would you propose as a solution to this? Making it so we dont know how much content we are paying for with an expansion? I straight up lost all alignment with your statements the instant you picked something so pointless and stupid to use as your example of a problem with the game...
Instead for an example of a an actual problem... 6:19 Look at the Mi'qote's eyes and tell me that is not a problem. This graphic bug is on every character other than hrothgar and somehow nobody is talking about it. Is she looking left or right?
I would have to push back against the "structure" of how ffxiv and focus more on the quality of that structure. Players didn't have much of an issue in most of the past 10 years. Yeah there were hiccups and such from real world events happening to cause those hiccups but as long as the content in of itself is good there would be no complaints. The 6th zone was never a surprise until Shadowbringers. Heavensward was Azys lla from which the only thing there was Bahumats wife and fighting Thordan. The zone in of itself was only important to lore people and not so much the story. Stormblood was just The Lochs, i.e. the Ala Mhigan main city. From which honestly almost no one even remembers or even cares about. Shadowbringers made the 6th zone significant by being a visual story telling of what Emet was desiring in his heart for his people. Endwalkers 6th zone was the visual mental abuse Meteion has gone through from absorbing the negativity of thousands of civilizations. The 6th zone of Dawntrail did not sit in the players heart long enough for us to care. Nor did it give lines to each cast member to think about the potential deep ramifications of what they had to do. Shadowbringers had the scions think about what Aumoraut meant to Emet. Ultima Thule had the scions talk to each other about what the zone meant to Meteion. There was no discussion between the cast in Living Memory about what the zone means to take the life of those that seem happy or anything else. The idea of Endless was not even introduced into the players mind until msq lv 98, think about that. The writers of Dawntrail were far to amateur to not only right something really thought provoking but how to pay it off as well. So either they are bad writers or there were structural problems in what way the team wanted the story to go and thought they could pull it off. Well, they couldn't.
....Idk I actually really enjoyed living memory and thought they pulled it off well enough, however a bit too much of it hinged on liking Erenvile's mom.
cut off two zones of future addons and make it only 4-5 new zones, so we can get more side content for patches etc. like a whole MSQ zone in between addons - instead of doing 6 zones per addon, add less but much bigger zones OR add a post-addon MSQ zone that is a part of the world, something you can travel to, is connected to other zones, and not a lame NPC that just teleports you into the instance like with most patch content. They could could have made dawntrail like an introduction Addon and "jump in point" for new players like ARR was, more seamless connected zones, with a more grounded story, adventure and exploration without a world ending crisis, without the scions, and without all that solution 9 plot and ugly looking sci-fi crap we instead got... A timeskip would be amazing, giving some characters a complete redesing and new lore... something i thought they would do after the end of Endwalker but no... the formula of the addons has gotten so predictable and boring over the years. DT could have been a good start to finally change something fundamentally... try something new, taking some risks in trying new things... but no, same old same old
It's hard to listen to many critiques of dawntrail when every video, comment, post, or thread about enjoying dawntrail has a flood of people saying you're stupid and low IQ for enjoying it. I don't disagree that there's toxic positivity (I'd argue much less than there used to be in late shb/early ew), but the toxicity for discussion exists on a large scale on both sides.
30000% correct. These people helding devs and yoshi p as if they were gods reincarnated that can do no wrong doing is ridicolous and cringe af. Has been happening since shb. It was not as prevalent before that.
It's the emperor new clothes effect. People saying they love wuk lumat and the story are afraid to admit their favorite game they spent 1000hrs was rightfully bad. The players that are criticizing the expansion want to make the game better because they see and called out a naked king.
Why not a bit less condescending dismissal of others? Some people may have enjoyed WL but found the character given the short end. I thought the character was “meh” but had potential. WL got a lot better later on, but we weren’t given enough time away from the character to see her grow without us guiding her along.
I think the issue is more so that people have different ideas of what would make this game better. To me the game being formulaic And job homogenization are good things others are very critical of that game design. To me job balance is very important to others job identity and uniqueness is more important and both sides are very critical and think the other side wants to silence theirs. Some people think everything that developers do is good elders would like to see things be better, but better means different things to different people. We should just keep an open mind and be open to discussions.
if you take the issue of DRK for example, and you think there’s nothing wrong with it because you appreciate job identity. You are arguing both against changes to the game direction and in agreement with what other people would perceive us bad decisions by the developers. So if I disagree with you, I may think that you are overly positive about bad things in the game, but you probably think I am overly positive about every job being the same or they having a formula.
The feedback that streamers give that's critical this time around happens to go against how I felt about the expansion but people like me don't have any voice. A lot of us really connected to Wuk Lamat and loved the story but because we're not content creators we can only speak our mind in the comments.
People said this about endwalker, dawntrail, shadowbringers, and honestly I’d bet money they said it about storm blood too, real people are just disappointing, doesn’t matter what game you’re playing on, if you have to rely on other human beings, you’re going to get disappointed.
@@scorpiowarrior7841because more wow players started critisizing without experiencing in whole or understanding it. If you think about it its more ex-wow players bashing it.
@miroslavkonecny8527 I mean that's not really probable but honestly you're not wrong. A lot of the dawntrail critisim reminds me a lot of wows very loud "critical" audience
Could this be something of a social media thing? I only really talk to people in game and in my static and I don't think I've ever met anyone who tries to shut down criticism of the game. From the other comments it seems like Twitter could be a bad contributor to this?
One of the things I’d like at this point is a realm reborn 2. Not narratively, but on the technical side. The back-end “spaghetti code” has been noted as an issue for some time now, how much longer can they work under those constraints?
The problem with Dawntrail is that it's trying to condense the whole story of Realm Reborn to Endwalker into 1 expansion with a new story and setting from a new charaters PoV. Yet Stormblood was from Lyse's story and PoV mostly and there we didn't get bothered with Lyse being there. Since we got involvement too. Stormblood was moving too fast through it's locations and one area felt entirely pointless to me in Stormblood, namely: The Azim Steppe's. They are cool but.. in the grand scheme.. I felt like a side story. In DT we had one area that was litterly: "Here is some side plots before the next big plot point shows up and some fan service" The biggest problem was a lot of lack of voiced cutscenes that played out liked voiced... a lot of moments I was going: "Why isn't this a solo instance? Endwalker and Shadowbringers allowed us to." Now I wasn't expecting Endwalker or Shadowbringers again on quality levels. Atleast something better then Realm Reborn and at best Stormblood. And the story... did do that, but only since of some payouts. But the more I looked at the journey.. the more I go with: "This is just repeating (INSERT EXPANSION)" It's a rough start to a new chapter.. but in reality... FF14 always had major bumps in the road. 1.0 was terrible, 2.0 was good but looking back is weak in the story department and pacing. Heavensward was great, Stormblood was a stepback in the story, Shadowbringers is topnotch and is the best expansion, Endwalker is phenomonal but had some pacing issues, post game felt fine and a great love letter to FF4. Dawntrail is now in it's post launch patches and well... there is still enough ways to steer it back. Stormblood's post game was phenomonal especially leading towards Shadowbringers. Endwalker's post game was kinda disconnected...but still neat. And realm reborn's post game is where the game started to truely shine. I hate to be "That guy" but until we see the true "Final chapter of Dawntrail" I cannot fully decide where to rate it, but as it stands. It is about the same as Stormblood.
The ability to change living memory was so cool, and im very excited to see what they do with it in the future (cough cough 13th shard cough cough the empty cough)
I criticize the games I love precisely because I care about them, and I want them to be better. Negative feedback is as important as positive feedback. Both are tools you use to steer the game in a direction that benefits everyone.
Too much Wuk on this. I'll say that unlike most I loved Stormblood more than the previous 2 expansions (not overall, just the later parts of Stormblood). I also loved Endwalker. But Dawntrail felt like something that could have been amazing, but got ruined mostly due to Wuk being the center of the story and too much at that, on top of she just not being that good of a character to focus on imo. The game itself, I believe it went in a better direction, but not enough to make up to how much the story degraded. But I do hope it keeps getting better and devs keep changing their mind of just listening to the bubble of the playerbase that is coping too hard to not be able to be critical towards a game they love.
I don't think wuk ruined it and honestly imo she kinda backed off in importance signicantly in the latter half. What degraded the story for me was bullshit motivations (ZORAAL JA AT THE START...My GOD I cannot imagine writing worse motivations for a villian jesus christ), Some glaring inconsitancies (how can Alexandria even exist if it experienced a calamity? they would've just rejoined the source and all of them would be dead...which clearly isn't the case), and characters felt really really stupid at times (how did Mamook REALLY not think of planting different crops insetad of giving up and going straight to conquest, how did the Hanu just completely forget what their yearly ritual did or even stood for?), and also just....how...the entire second half basically could've probally been avoided had Gulool Ja ja just....Not been a shit dad to Zoraal ja. But I also don't hate wuk lamat and actually enjoyed her character for the most part.
@@scorpiowarrior7841 It got too little Scion and WoL moments for her to shine, when it didn't need to be the case. Especially the Scions. It was a good opportunity to give more story for Scion members like Krile, but it was done so poorly imo.
@chobitsotaku5613 yeah I do agree the scions were really hard sidelined but I think it's kinda because the writers probally don't know what to do with fully developed chatacters....which the scions are, literally all of them have already had their arcs aside from maybe y'shtola. That being said my god the rite of succession was really dissapointing in how little conflict it brought between the scions. I was really hoping for a solo duty that's just like....the wol vs thancred
@@scorpiowarrior7841 Right? I was expecting exactly that as well, going vs the Scions or one of them somewhere in there, would be fun. I still got hope for something good on the post-expansion patches, those tend to do very good in every expansion imo. Personally still have to find a post-expansion that disappointed, as they were all great. At least dungeons themselves and trials were really enjoyable, despite the story told when doing them. Do hope they become less formulaic, especially at the cost of the story.
Eh, I enjoyed the MSQ as a whole. Some parts had slow pacing but otherwise I liked it as a whole. Some of Wuk Lamat's voice acted scenes were a little flat but I still overall liked her as a character as well as Koana, Gulool Ja Ja, and even Bakool Ja Ja who I loved to hate for most of the game though I felt his redemption was a bit forced. As for job homogenization, I don't see it but I think that's more because I see job fantasy based on visuals rather than simply number of buttons pressed and what those buttons do. Paladin doesn't feel like Warrior which doesn't feel like Gunbreaker to me and so on. If buttons pressed and uniqueness of those buttons is what helps job uniqueness for others it should be addressed. As for content cycle... I don't want it to change. I can decide what games I'm playing when during content lulls because it is reliable.
Yea this has become a huge issue with 14, like, if you don’t have a huge following or audience you just can’t critique or criticize ANYTHING without being called a hater. But let a big name creator say the exact same thing lmaoooo people become huge yes-men.
I LEGIT, was kicked from my FC because I said the PVP in FF14 was dogshit. Reason, "no negativity allowed about the game" These people are such a cancer on the game that its suffocating. "I really want that mech mount from doing PVP but I can't be damned too play that dogshit. I rather buy the red version of it on the market board as a compromise"
on how DT Z6's change was not well received due to it "looking bad": I thought this was obvious while playing through it, but apparently not many people saw it this way, so... I think this was on purpose to connect to the theme of knowing when to let go and move on. After the first time you switch off an area, you know what's going to happen when you do it again, and it's undesirable, but, you have to, or else you can't continue the story, just as in-story you have to "kill off" part of an utopia so that new life can go on untethered to it. A genuine "bad on purpose" moment. ...Though the same effect could have been achieved better. As it is, post-story Z6 doesn't look "worse", it looks straight-up "bad". given how the original look was so filled with articial lights and smoke and mirrors everywhere, leaving the actual architecture of the place untouched but switching off all those lights would probably have worked just fine and leave a "worse" but pleasantly melancholic landscape behind. As it is, instead, it looks more like the meshes were left there but the textures got removed, it's just plain ugly.
I love Final Fantasy XIV. I especially liked the last two expansions. I was pretty excited to see what was to come after the whole post MSQ story regarding Zero and Golbez, but was a bit disappointed on how things developed in Dawntrail. Wuk Lamat's questline for the first half of the story was pretty bland, and I didn't find myself getting engrossed in it. This was especially devastating because when I first met Wuk Lamat, I thought she was going to be a fabulous character. I slowly started liking her less with her whole "happiness and peace" view on things. Because of this, I pretty much tempered my expectations for the finale, which was a good thing I did since I wasn't exactly blown away from the last zone or the final trial. And don't get me started on Wuk Lamat's performance in the finale... I did like the final dungeon though, it was pretty cool. I understand it's going to be hard to create content on par with Shadowbringers and Endwalker, but I'm kind of hoping that post MSQ will bring more significance to this expansion's name: Dawntrail.
I feel like a lot of people in the real world need to see that sort of character more, because they're too focused on hatred and pain and fear (their own or that belonging to others) that they DON'T actively push for such a positive world around themselves or they're actively violent people in how they treat the world. I work with people who have openly talk about how they will gladly pull out their gun to shoot a guy immediately for simply walking up to them in the street, because they wouldn't want to give THEM a chance to draw on them first. The world is fucked up and people need to be shown a different way.
@@DrakeWurrum There's nothing wrong with positive characters, but Wuk Lamat did it to a point where it got painful to watch. It almost reminded me of Alphinaud and the Crystal Braves. Alphinaud started reaching a point of arrogance and it totally backfired on him, knocking him down a few pegs. The world isn't so black and white, and it seems Wuk may need to learn that the hard way.
The ff14 twitter community is especially bad because you cant make any kind of criticism without being called some kind of -phobe or -ist especially with the debates involving Wuk. People fighting tooth and nail saying the expac was perfect when it's really not. I truly believe they should have spent more time on this expac to fix a lot. At least in terms of story and characters, the battle content is going in a good direction atm.
Yeah the whole wuk lamat sitation is something I got into a bit a couple days ago in a vid, but yeah. Like some people are 100% just being transphobic about it which is dumb, but it's also dumb to dismiss all criticism of the character and the story as just that when imo, there's a bunch of legitimate criticism that can and is being levied at that character specifically and also the writing overall with DT
Exactly, I personally said I didn't like wuk cuzs to me at least she seems speed run. Instead of letting her grow. The writing seemed poor to me, and FF14 is my top rpg story. I hold it to a higher standard.
From what I've heard and seen, it seems to me a perfectly valid criticism that the VA is unable to emote the lines properly, perhaps due to their situation, or perhaps not. Either way, would WL having a stronger VA have helped flesh out her character and make her more tolerable?
That is 100 a criticism I also shared throughout DT, I didn't like the voice acting for wuk lamat myself, but I didn't like the voice acting across the board for the most part sans G'raha. There's a few scenes that are pretty good, but I don't know whether to chalk it up just to Wuk Lamat's VO specifically, or if there is a larger voice direction issue with DT (which is what I suspect to be the case, and we just put it all on Wuk Lamat cause she has far and away the most dialogue
The weird thing is that most people didn't even know who the actor was (or don't even play in english, like me). And then you start seeing game journalists basically picking fights and throwing stones. Now is really difficult to have an honest discussion.
Omg i agree so much with you! Its nice af to see someone who can be critical without absolutely hating on it, i LOVE this game with all my heart but some of the community could be far less toxic in terms of gameplay too these ppl that are so burnt out on the game being jerks to everyone new is NOT helping the community at all either so its tit for tat on alot of things
Agreed. Heck, I paid for the sub and I have the right to feedback about the game. I will STFU if these fanboys/girls funded my sub. Community are divided in DT and the game has been getting some mixed reviews. Clearly the glory of SHB and EW is history.
I have experience where FFXIV community is the most toxic community I have ever seen in a pyscho way.. People are not allowed to say something is bad in this game and 9 people will pop-up with their toxiciy.. Sorry I play other online game like LoL but FFXIV is something special
I've even seen people bend themselves into pretzels prefacing their reasonable criticism and critiques with all the praise of the game as a whole they can muster - still to have people tell them to go play something else then. It'd be like someone telling you to just abandon your kids if you have anything critical to say to them. "How dare you tell your child not to touch the hot stove - you're a terrible parent! You don't deserve your kids!"
@esperan2k I have seen people attack me in 3 different account just because I have a discussion about tanks job design literally People in this game are awful
You really think LoL is more toxic than FF14 which is known to be one of the less toxic games out there? Is it your agenda to talk shit about the game like the WoW virgins used to do back then?
I had a stalker tell me he was in love with my cat girl and stalked me (still) for 7 months, got one account banned. I never erp or rp so it was bat shiz crazy. Ff14 is the craziest community I have ever seen in gaming. When I tell my non gamer friends about this and show them the screen shots, they are shocked this happens in a game.its not a dating simulator for lonely wierdos
I see two complementary ways to make dungeon less boring, even on the long run: -Using the RE2 remake difficulty adaptibility system based on the team performances. If during the first wall to wall they're y good, the next wall could be a lot harder, same for bosses. We could have high level difficulty dungeon (except for Sastasha that should remain a baby's first tutorial dungeon) -Giving more interesting rewards for exploring them even if you know them by heart, with level based chest instead of a chest with that F*cking stuff that even to exchange for FC company point isn't worth waste an inventory slot.(that function would be off course desactivated during an unsync run)
The context of this video is even more important than its content. Listen to the way Jmulls feels the need to both preface and follow up any negative comment with half a dozen lines reassuring the audience that he has a positive outlook on the game's present, past, and future. If anybody is ever even suspected of having so much as a negative thought about this game, they're immediately under fire. I've seen people getting doxxed, I've seen people getting actual death threats, if they've said something bad about it. This is legitimately terrifying. It feels like a cult. Of course everybody on the planet "loves" this game and "loves" Yoshi-P. It's an endless echo chamber of positivity that suffocates anything else. Dawntrail was the first time enough people at one time had a negative experience that there was an actual blip of resistance. But even that was eventually overwhelmed by the toxic positivity.
ya this is the real best mentality. im overall positive on dawntrail as a whole but if i couldnt talk a little bit on aspects that i feel hurt it and make it the 3/5 it is, then wed get no where. At this point i dont engage with folks who have too much negative to say AND too little
Fair take. I did find the toxic negative voices a lot more prevalent for DT - too many people can't seem to face their disappointment with an okay story with some interesting ideas and an very flawed execution without having to declare it the worst thing ever.
To be fair, I think the vehement defense of anything FFXIV-related from the toxically positive side of the fandom drives many critical people towards hyperbole just to be heard. Some also feel a lot of the writing choices to be offensive on a thematical level and react more emotionally because of that. Constructive criticism is of course much more helpful, but when every even slightly critical comment, no matter how well-phrased, gets swarmed by people calling it delusional and subjective with no merit, then some people will eventually stop being calm about it. Not defending some of the crass and transph*bic people, though, they shouldn't be listened to.
@Sneedmeister My favourite example: Tackling a society where grief gets instantly excised via regulator was a fascinating concept that could have carried the last act by itself and created a different approach to the themes of ShB (inability to let go) and EW (facing inevitability). Unfortunately the idea gets brought up and is immediately dropped again. I think there is good stuff in there, it's just not executed well, and what we do get is focusing on the least interesting aspects. The last zone could have been devastating, with the proper setup.
@@beraan7930 might have been interesting in its own flushed out story, not in the middle of a set of rushed quests that makes your eyes bleed jumping around so much...
It's important to give your opinions on a game realistically especially when you have a team that actually listens to the players. Don't get me wrong me and many people I know absolutely love FFXIV otherwise I wouldn't have several thousands of hours in it. I already felt it was a bit lacking story wise after playing it myself and even the most hardcore fan I know that has played since the original final fantasy 1 on the NES has had issues with it.
Everyone needs to see this comment. Notice how important it is for them to point out that they love X|V and have played many hours into it before saying just one negative thing about it. This is scary. The entire community just descends on negativity like vultures unless it's prefaced with undying love for the game.
I say this any chance I get when it comes to topics like this: Criticism, done correctly, is love. I love plenty of mid, or even bad, games. And it is because I love them, I will praise AND reprimand them. For a game, or anything really, to survive, it needs creative criticism. For every very real issue, the product rots. And the absolute last thing you want is for the rot to reach the spine. Once it has rotten nigh to the core, it is virtually unsalvageable. If you love something, you will do what you can to keep it healthy. Just as doctors must hurt to heal, so too must fans.
Agreed, if I am heavily critiquing a game or at least talking about it, generally means I still care about it for some reason, but when i just give up and stop even giving critique is when I just simply no longer care. It's why I left WoW a while back because I largely just stopped caring
At the end of the day it has been getting more structurally formulaic each expansion. But the quality of the story usually outweighs these other elements for me. The main issue is Dawntrail’s messaging seems counterintuitive to what has come before, especially with the whole Endless plot line. It seems the developers both want to and don’t want to tell the particular story. I’d say directionless is an apt description but Dawntrail sometimes actively goes against the moral and themes of Endwalker.
Pretty much agree with everything you said. DT was super lackluster as an expansion and sorely missed the ShB/EW writer in the room. Too much stuff happened off screen that was teased as major story beats, and a ton of character motivations were disappointingly one note to the point of absurdity. The whole thing hinged on whether or not you thought Wuk was the greatest and bestest character ever due to our OCs playing a mentor role in her journey. Sure, she had some character growth, which was a saving grace, but she was kind of the embodiment of the topic of the whole video and her mid fight spotlight steal at the very end borderline ruined the fight because it made no sense for it to even happen given the context of the moment. Post MSQ has a LOT of water to carry for this expansion. SE also has to be way more careful with how they handle other franchise entries being included in the game. Yes, 14 is basically a shared nexus for the whole franchise, but FFIX got done dirty compared to other entries and it makes me really concerned for the upcoming Alliance Raid due to how beloved FFXI was/is to a niche chunk of the player base.
Game feedback is important, but I notice many don't give feedback. Writing or saying "this sucks" is not communication or feedback as much as it is venting. I think it's no better than saying "this is the best". These are just people letting emotions out more than giving a good critique and I tend to ignore both extremes when reading reviews. There should be a balance, but people just saying "Dawntrail sucks and this VA ruined it" doesn't seem like good criticism to me since there was way more wrong with DT than any one VA.
If we are being honest with ourselves, ShB summoner was not going to fit into the new 2 minute meta they are using for job burst windows. Not with its 3+ minute long opener. Add to that the button bloat that job had and that this game does also need to be playable on console with a controller and it is pretty obvious something was going to change. Add to that Yoship-P and crew specifically stated they didn't like the pet system and dots as a whole, and yeah. It was inevitable. Also as someone who played both old and new summoner.. I like new summoner. It's flashy and makes my brain happy lol.
New summoner is braindead and that's just what you want to do sometimes. Turn your brain off, press 1 button for a minute and not worry about anything just enjoy the fight
@@stormkeeper1741 I also played both, and not even optimizing the old one was just such a chore - it was frustrating not being able to get all the GCDs in occasionally. This new version, pretty easy peasy to play halfway decently without issues.
This is such a cathartic listen both in terms of having healthy expectations for Dawntrail’s future and not being afraid to say what is plaguing FFXIV. Now that isn’t to say that this game will never be any problems worth addressing, or even just toxic positivity is the only issue with the community, but it’s way more valuable to give them good feedback to build off of it and always be honest with the developers even if we really don’t like something. I get the feeling the devs love when we are transparent and constructive, and I hope there’s more of that for Dawntrail and it’s patch cycles. I believe in this games future, and doing so by not just blatantly blowing away criticism by calling people naysayers, and not just calling it irremediably terrible with no chance of being better. Apologies for the rambling, but I couldn’t help but feel so satisfied listening to your thoughts JMulls. Cheers.
Why even bother with people that complain? Alot of the time you'll just waste your energy bickering amongst each other. Dont worry about the weather, just let the wind blow.
I personally am not looking forward to new Bozja as I absolutely hated Bozja/Zadnor, but unfortunately the new relics will probably be tied to that place.
I never even stepped foot into either of them, barely stepped into the first Eureka either. I liked the ARR style relics personally, and HW was OK. Yeah, some of the RNG stuff was annoying as hell, but I enjoyed having something I could work on little by little.
I did Bozja as it was coming out, and I did it with friends and FC members, so that helped. I also didn't do the 1v1's that people loved about Bozja/Zadnor. I can't be bothered to do Eureka because no amount of friends can make me like that grind-fest. I know some people like that kinda thing, but it wasn't for me. Back on the Bozja thing tho, I don't like the ShB Relics being tied to it, because when I went back on my own to get the WAR Relic shortly before Endwalker released, the instance was a ghost town, and I didn't want to have to go through outside channels to get the people to do the content I needed.
@@TajinQ Me? I tried out Eureka pretty late, so I was largely on my own, and the enemies were super OP compared to my character, even at max level. It felt like I was having to do everything over from scratch. Didn't like the whole elements system or trying to figure it out effectively. I figured Bozja was more of the same when it came out, so I only did the first couple of steps of that outside of Bozja and never finished any of those relics.
Hi! I agree with you overall. I just wonder what you meant by saying they were taking a risk with the ideas within the MSQ? Because I personally feel like their ideas for the MSQ were solid. Where they went wrong is choosing a junior writer who clearly is incapable of focusing on more than one character (and quite frankly, isn't that good of a writer outside even of that). Genuine question btw, in case it doesn't come across like that!
I think Devs would want to take risks and bring new ideas into the game, but in order for them to do that, it need the player feedback AND Square Enix approval. What I mean about SE approval? SE is a multi-million dollar corporation, and corporations have like 2 objectives: - Maximize profits and minimize costs - Don't make any unnecessary risks FFXIV was able to be reborn because of being willing to risk anything to recuperate from the financial disaster that was 1.0. In my opinion, SE is back in that financial comfort zone, and I think they reach the mentality of "If majority don't complain, don't fix it"
After shadowbringers and endwalker, the msq story wasn't really good. It had its moments, wasn't all bad. But the pacing, especially prior 95 and the dreamland quests, oh man, realm reborn vibes, not bad as an idea but very boring, and yeah... on the other hand, meaningless boring quests as Final Fantasy fans in general, well we're used to it, aren't we. But the dungeons, the new way to show mechanics and the raids, man i love them. Drk suffered a bit true, but as gnb main i have to say, my job feels even better now. (I play every tank) the dreamland zone being an empty zone now doesn't bother me at all, though. But you make a lot of good points and like you i think there will be a good future for ffxiv 😊
Not just with games, just look at political shit in this country people are bat shit crazy you can't critize anything current party does even if it's really fucked up it's very weird behavior
I hated every second of Dawntrial. I despise skips but I would've gladly paid for one to not have to suffer through those quests and that story for another second.
but in all honesty I feel a expansion should not be used to test things I mean the EW patches already had not so good reception as the story was rushed but you use your patches to test not a full R800 expansion then they should not ask full price for a test trial; they should have rather given a major update said they are trying something new then once they have reception release a expac based on the test trial patch.
weird cuz i don't see it... Reddit, Twitter, and the forums are full to the brim of criticism. A never ending stream of the same criticisms regurgitated over and over again. In fact, i think it's been well over a year now that it's harder to find positive things about 14 online vs. negative.
The expansion feels like it had *several* writers, all pulling the story in vastly different directions and wanting to focus on different things. The result is an MSQ that honestly pleased nobody.
Yeah, I started to notice how formulaic everything is at the end of EW. It really hit me in DT because I wasn't interested in the Story for the first time ever in FFXIV. 3 trails, dungeons always have 3 bosses with 2 groups between them, dungeons are always at the odd levels and the new max level, the list goes on. I think FFXIV has the best combat and raids in any mmo, but there is really not much fresh content to do.
Ima be real, since DT released it’s been the exact opposite. Can’t like the story w/o being flamed, hell folks are sending death threats and constantly harassing WLs VA.
It's ironic that the stans are more toxic than the "haters" (hater is a strong word though, most of us just point out both what we enjoyed and elements we disliked about the expansion)
I know players like this and its exhausting. They take any slight criticism on the game as a slight on them as a person for enjoying the game, and then they'll rip into you. So funny though, because they're the type to sit on their high-horses and state: "all opinions are welcome!", yeah unless they're ones you don't agree with. Don't like Wuk Lamat? Now you're a transphobe. (Even though I'm trans??).
I'm a newer player, story skipped and then played through DT. Said I didn't really like it cause it just feels like a VN where wuk Lamat is a kinda mary sue anime protagonist for most of it. I was kicked from my FC.
You also have toxic positivety. The trend in the last two expension has been homogenization. And making tanks demigods so they can carry glarebots and healers have nothing to do. Then healers get acostumed with the tank not needing any heal. So the only tank that cannot heal itself properly gets attacked. Tanks are supposed to mitigate. Not heal. Meanwhile "dungeons" are just paths with exactly the same formula. To the point of being BORING. Dungeon bosses got better but dungeon trash got worse. With ranged not obeying line of sight. Given this trend. The burden of proof is in the "It will get better" crew. Not on the "I have eyes, and in the last 2 expansion things have been getting worse" crew. Can they fix it? Yes. Would they fix it? Probably not. As the interest is no longer telling a good story and making good gameplay, but only of milking as much money as possible before the game fails.
Dungeons aren't complex because people will go through the whole thing once and then race through. And if you come late, you'll never get to see the whole thing. Hallway dungeons sort of suck, but I don't see that ever changing, because it's 100% a player thing. (Really, most issues with this game outside of story stuff is player bullshit because most gamers don't know what makes a good game, at least mechanically.)
I think ff14 community is the games downfall, they don’t allow criticism, which would allow the game to grow. It’s “perfect” for people who live in ff14, the community now is run by erp creeps and gate keepers
Being formulaic is not too bad but there are degrees to it. 3 trials an expansion is fine. Having them placed at the exact same level areas (93 first trial, 99 second trial, 100 last trial) is a bit too much. It is way to predictable. Even the dungeos are at the same levels, hell even the story beats follow a predictable pattern. I can expect lvl 99 quest to go wild in the story, i can predict when a long stretch without any duty arrives etc.
I don't get why people are upset about not seeing more job iteration in Dawntrail; Square literally said MULTIPLE times that 8.0 is gonna be the job identity start.
I'm trying to not be "TOXIC" positive, i'm OK with people giving constructive critique. What i'm not OK with is: Savage Raiders making t heir VALID complaints but not making it clear their issues are with the jobs for SAVAGE and high end content. As someone who's not YET good enough for savage content regularly, and isnt' that great at BOZJA *YET* - It can get daunting when people screech about the jobs. However, i don't like it when discords and reddits SIT there and not allow people to TALK - is stupid, and lazy and censorship yes. The fact i've heard big time discords ban people over talking about CONSTRUCTIVE details abotu jobs like Viper's changes, that have been from a "Savage level" of the optimization standpoint - or even things about the past of Samurai's job changes.. I loved Dawntrail but not AS MUCH AS endwalker, but WITH ME the thing is that i DO like dawntrail DIFFERENTLY because it's a connection point, it's a bridge. Maybe you didn't prefer the characters no, but you have to sort of ... for me i think ti's important to go "yea maybe i didn't like xyz - but this specific area of the game is a bridge" - it's the antipodes of ARR, you don't start realizing the VALUE of the story if of course that is :P if you're a story liker-- If you're a cutscene skipper, adn you're preferably just a fight and glam nerd that's valid too XD. I jest that people shouldn't do that but hey - as long as you're not unsyncing Dancing Plague via PF >_> i'm pretty ok with most stuff XD
There is a lot of toxic positivity but I think it's lessened a good bit now that the Shadowbringers mass influx of new players are in the regular flow of content. Most are not afraid to complain about flaws. The formulaic nature of the MSQ is a problem as it forces the story into a specific structure (though that didn't stop Dawntrail from making us wait 3 hours before the first time we drew our weapon). They could change it but that would make leveling alt jobs harder in places due to gaps in content of the appropriate level. Though they could fix this if other content like variant dungeons had level scaling functionality to allow them to be used for job leveling once the MSQ is complete.
Literally quit ffxiv for wow and wow classic and a bit of osrs. The game has just become so boring and homogenized. Same content cycle, same dance dance revolution boss mechanics, boring gear progression. The game needs a change up. I miss the old days where it had a wierd mishmash of ideas
Story related comment, sorry its long From my personal experience most people that I have spoken to or had a debate with about Dawntrails msq was either influenced (hearing it was boring - that nothing happens - that the characters are cringe and annoying) or didn't actually understand the story (finding this out after having the debate with them which eventually changed their perspective). After playing through it myself reading everything, and then rewatching it all again twice over, there is no doubt in my mind that Dawntrail is absolutely a top 3 expansion, and arguably as solid as both SHB and EW. Are there things wrong with Dawntrails story? Yes absolutely. but this is nothing out of the ordinary, no expansion is perfect. This is a NEW story, focusing on NEW characters. Completely different from the past 4 expansions. The story is taking the path of our character is already fully established and well respected by almost everyone. Wuk Lamat over the course of the story is learning what it means to be a traveler (adventurer like us). Starting off as being full of herself and fairly obnoxious/arrogant thinking she already knows everything, but we see that she doesn't know what's really going on (she might not even realize this herself). After coming into contact with us, and drawing the parallels between us and her father Gulool Ja Ja, she slowly starts to realize that she doesn't know as much as she thinks she does. She outright says this out loud and has this moment of self reflection. She starts to realize that there is more to the world than she will ever hope to learn. She starts to realize why her father is so well respected around the world, and see's first hand why our character is so well respected and powerful. She needs to experience the world more and peoples cultures and how things came to be the way that they are. We are a mentor figure currently for this new story. Gulool Ja Ja was as far as we know now the WoL equivalent for Tuliyollal. How the people in the lands spoke about Gulool Ja Ja is the same way people speak about us back home. We weren't there to just do everything for Wuk Lamat, we were meant to give her an example of what she wants to become and help guide her to that goal because she shares that same love for adventure that the WoL and her Father does. We learn about her people alongside her, and we visibly see and hear her change over the course of the story. And Koana in the same sense had Thancred and Urianger to help be mentors rather than people who just did everything for Koana. Two Characters that we love and that we know understands what it means to be a leader and someone who cares for others. We see Koana change through the story as well. Going from being a very cold, rigid straight edged guy that only see's things how he wants to see them. To becoming someone who understands what it means to care for people, and accepting of the fact that he can't do everything by himself. Accepting that he's not the best at everything. Giving up the rite of succession for his Sister to become Dawnservant, at this point of the story we fully understand the weight of what being dawnservant means to the people of Tuliyollal, to fill the shoes of Gulool Ja Ja. We know how big of a decision this is, and it is polar opposite of the Koana we first meet in dawntrail. We (our character) was not meant to be the center of this expansion and that's okay. The irony is that people are saying square enix is afraid of trying new things and experimenting, when almost this entire expansion is exactly that. To briefly touch on a couple of the very justified negatives. Two of the biggest problems have to be Bakool Ja Ja and Zarool Ja. To keep this brief, one example for Bakool's is his redemption failed to feel like a redemption, and felt very random/forced. He literally set free a primal that not even prime Gulool Ja Ja was able to handle, risking and accepting a massive loss of life. Yet faces 0 repercussions for this. Zarool Ja, the failure to make us feel bad for him at his death. The attempt at showing that he was struggling with the decisions he was making fell flat completely. Expressing that he just wanted to be able to essentially do something nice for his son fell flat. There wasn't enough development with Zarool Ja to successfully make the player really feel bad for him. Dawntrail is in my opinion being massively underrated. Its not perfect, but its not horrible. For a NEW story, this was absolutely excellent. ARR released as a new story. From the continuation of heavensward up to endwalker was 6 years. For something new I think they killed it. Thanks for reading if you did. These are my opinions. You're free to tell me how wrong I am. I hope reading this view of things will maybe make someone get more enjoyment from what they originally disliked.
Maybe we could get rid of toxic positivity if we forced everyone who partakes in it, to listen to Smile every time they do
I'd go insane
Won't work. Smile is genuinely good.
problem is... they'll say they like it...
I'm calling the police.
@@DrakeWurrumHave it your way. *Begins playing Machinations*
Well hey if dawntrail being hit or miss will finally lead the community into finally accepting that ff14 is not perfect, then I call it a win.
I have to say this to you JMulls.. You are not alone..
We love the game too we critique the game because we love it and we will not close our mouth because of toxic community in FFXIV
yoshi p said on his early presentation on ARR that a critique is worth more than a praise in terms on feedback also if the public is vocal is a sign that they care
@@RasnerG There is a difference between criticism and what I see a lot of FFXIV fans complaining about. It's not cool to harass others when giving that feedback though.
@@fredy2041 and where i said i was harassing the va, her job was bad along with the most english cast even the old ones that we know so the ones to blame are the direction of all of it, so where i said that I am harassing her.
@@cynthiahembree3957 that is due to the toxic behaviour of social media and even more twitter/x where there is a pool of thoxic behaviour being unchecked
@@RasnerG yoship also said that forgetting your core audience is a surefire way to ruin the game... then he catered to game to a completly different audience. The ARR presentation slides that you can find are basically contradicting everything that SE does today in FFXIV
Imo FFXIV twitter is way more of a defense squad than FFXIV reddit is.
This problem is now it is finally highly visible since Dawntrail is highly divisive in general.
It's been like this way in the open since shadow bringers and covid
theres nothing more annoying than xiv twitter
It basically impossible to say anything critical about FF14 on twitter without being called names and put down
@@bekir51500 It's damn near impossible to say anything critical about FF14 practically anywhere on the internet without being called names and put down.
It's like criticizing BG3 or any Fromsoft game released in the past 15 years. Doesn't matter if the criticisms are objectively correct, people are seemingly not allowed to criticize them.
Reddit has always been the worst of FF14, the most elite players who hate sprouts and want the game to go back to Heavensward
Toxic positivity but the NA VA for Wuk Lamat is actively calling people that don’t like like “Smile” racist because apparently “it was noticed that a certain group don’t like it because it sounds like black gospel” (???) while also not providing proof. Idk it’s a bold statement. But also remember the whisper yelling of “ SpheEene” in the final boss. Idk man
The dude who voiced Wuk Lamat ruined every cutscene.
Black gospel is good. Smile is not. It sounds like a lame Disney song.
@@gzuskreist1021 its not just the VA, its the character itself. wuk it a shitshow of a character with zero interesting hooks or themes. the VA's subpar performance at BEST is just the icing on the cake.
Yeah, that racism claim is enough to make me withhold any further goodwill. And I do hope Bryer got a stern talking to over that, as the casting was enough controversy. How hard is it for people to just not attack the customers?
It's even worse. Bryer was actively demanding a female VA to not voice a trans character because she wasn't trans.
Then, months later, she a trans accepts voicing Wuk Lamat who is biologically female.
Again, no interest in identity or gender BS, just pointing out that all around she is clearly in over her feelings about stuff, ready to raise her voice BUT when it matters the most, when it affects her, she'll stay silent and do the exact same thing she was telling others not to do.
Her calling people racists over Smile just further lowers any shred of goodwill I might have towards her because it means that she does the usual tactic of idiotic people to take the most negative, toxic comments and use those to paint the entire group of critics in order to not address or accept criticism, or, maybe, just to cope.
The Twitter community is especially bad about this. They are willing to go so far to defend this story that I've seen people say if you dislike Wuk Lamat then you are a "miserable" person. I'm not just talking about the people accusing critics of the character of being bigots, either. There are people who will try to gaslight you into believing you're the problem because "You don't like the energetic, peace loving heroine." It's gross, really.
Nevermind that Wuk has a lot of problems as a character, including being a smothering presence for a ton of people. They can keep yapping, but I refuse to let them have that kind of leverage.
It's not just FF players, but they have the most from my experience. No matter how well put, respectful and no matter how much i clarify that it is simply my opinion and not gospel, they will unleash utter hatred for you if you even "talk bad" about FF14. It's not just that, there's plenty of Duty Finder stories where some people enable a toxic player cause they're "Just playing the game in a way they want to play it".
i love the game. I love it enough that i want it to be the best it can be. So i still point out the flaws and what it can do better.
And hey, I think you're doing good in that regard mate. I personally enjoyed my time with Dawntrail, going through it with my girlfriend who enjoyed it becsuse Tural and it's areas reminded her a lot of where she grew up. And I enjoyed hearing her just find such joy is all the litter references to food that she's grown up with, as well as how even some areas actually reminded her of her hometown.
But I'll never act like the expansion is flawless. Nothing ever is. And I do have my own problems with Dawntrail, like it's pacing, Wuk Lamat getting 90% of character development compared to other characters (I still love her as a character though deapite it, i just think the hyper focus is a writing problem), Krile being kinda sidelined until the final area, and even some voice acting here and there.
All that said, I still enjoyed my time in Tural. But it's always important to critic things and let the devs know so they can improve. :)
The Destiny 2 community is like this as well, but multiplied by 100. The amount of times I've been brutally honest about the game only to be attacked is mind-blowing. I'm now just sitting back and watching Destiny 2 die slowly because the community created that monster, so they can now reap the consequences of said monster
That's because those are losers who associate their self worth to things, hence they percieve it as a personal attack
I noticed this during EW (which I and others did not like very much).
I blame this partly because social media sites (like reddit) are built in such a way that they promote bubbles and group-think. And a lot of content creators... really like going to FanFest.
It drives me insane how many people defended endwalker patch content, calling you sweaty no-lifers every time you criticize the lack of replayability of everything in general and the laziness of manderville relics
I loved base EW, but I found the post EW content unbearably dull.
I kinda gave EW's lack of content a pass because of Covid19. There were obvious technical issues and a lot of stuff seemed behind schedule, including the stormblood ultimate which ended up getting canceled/pushed back
I feel that Bakool Ja Ja's came out of nowhere, he does a complete 180 with no foreshadowing or buildup. He gets no comeuppance for any of his crimes, he just tells a sob story, and Wuk Lamat just goes "You're pretty cool actually.".
I thought Estinien and Thancred backing Koana would cause some real conflict and divide between the scions, and I thought the cooking trial would also pair our team with one of the mamool teams, but no, any potential for interesting dynamics and interactions is immediately quashed in favour for the quick and predictable route.
Can't be distracting the player from what REALLY matters.
Wuk Lamat.
There were a bit of foreshadowing with bakooler, but it's highly covered up by Wuk's POV, as well as "world building" quests where you talk to X to automatically do trading.
So, it kinda sucks how the pacing and direction of some scenes are really.
I feel Bakool Ja Ja was actually handled about as well as he COULD have been handled within the confines of the FFXIV MSQ.
He's no Fordola, sure, but Bakool Ja Ja was basically meant to be a petty criminal and bully... and he's meant to show that such people can be reformed if given the chance to.
This COULD have been dragged out longer and had stronger beats in the story, but I don't think the writers plan to really revisit him in the near future. I think he was just a one-and-done side character, so his development arc ends up feeling rushed.
@@DrakeWurrum I disagree, at the very least they could have changed alot of his smaller moments. Like with Valigarmanda he could be less of a haha evil guy and more doing it out of a sense of desperation. Similarly we could have been paired with him during the cooking trial which could have made some really cool character dynamic. Plus it would help us tap more into Bakool Ja's Ja's character instead of just making a compete 180 with all of 5 minutes of forshadowing
Predictable doesnt immediately mean bad. You could say somethings badly written but just because something has a different dynamic doesnt mean its gonna turn out any better, its like removing what you want to happen vs critiquing what actually yappens
I have seen someone unironically say/type something to the extent of "to be fair, you have to be very intelligent to understand Dawntrail".
I hope I never see anything like that ever again from either side of the DT aisle. Or in any fandom.
....the fuck? As someone who genuinely enjoyed Dawntrail, I can't at all fathom why anybody would say that. It's not a very deep story, it's simple and straightforward.
Honestly DT defenders are just, the worst.
Wow thanks for coming out and just insulting me, really gonna make me like this expansion more now. /s
@@Castersvarog - I've legit seen it the exact opposite way. DT haters attacking me for actually liking the expansion.
@DrakeWurrum lol its a meme phrase to make fun of the rick & morty show. i highly doubt it was serious, it is more likely it was used to make fun of DT rather than defend it
@@CastersvarogHaven't seen a single person who "defends" Dawntrail like this. All these people get is harassment for simply saying "I enjoyed it"
The voice actor must spend all of his effort to sound like a woman, he's 100% unable to have ANY range of emotion because he's gonna start sounding like Hulk Hogan if he tries.
Baffling times we live in where people just won't say it out loud.
My biggest complaint with the game, that unfortunately will never be changed, is the design of dungeons. Im so fatigued of the only thing dungeons are being wall to wall pulls with 3 bosses. Its been the exact same since late heavensward.. thats almost 10 years! But i know this cannot and will not change, because ive played long enough to see what happens when dungeons arent the hallways we currently have.
To combat this, what i really want is variant dungeons to do away with the 3 path lock system, and instead just design the variant dungeon as one large dungeon, with a limit of how many bosses you can kill.
Those aside, my other critique is how the boss arena looks so obviously like a boss arena. It's always a perfect square or circle. I know they sometimes use the arena itself for mechs and/or to clue us in on them, but still they need to be more creative about these boss arenas.
@@Reaper1722 Sadly, I think they do this for the ever expanding size of healer abilities and ranges. If the arena was oblong or oddly shaped, you'll end up with a situation where the weird ranged DPS off in Narnia doesn't get heals (their own fault) and they blame the healer for not being closer to them. Then healers get burned out and without healers, the queues are terrible.
They need to do it in a way that makes the dungeons more creative. For instance, don't make it a linear path, make it multiple, and depending on which objectives you do, you get rewarded better. Mid bosses need to be a little bit stronger and D.T at least started in a good direction with this. Also I feel the mobs should be more interesting. Make them do mechanics like look away, big aoes, magnet things, just like the A-rank hunts.
@@Yokai_Yuri Problem with multiple paths is that eventually the player base will decide on one optimal path and they will complain or even kick you if you go the wrong way. Look at Shatasha for example. You COULD go around to the side rooms and get all the chests, but most players just want to get through that dungeon ASAP.
Even having different mechanics on the boss due to what you do in the dungeon would eventually meet the meta hammer and you would be forced to do it a particular way. Consider the Arboretum HM, what if the final boss did different mechanics if you didn't wash off the enemies beforehand. If these mechanics are easier, then the meta will become leave the enemies muddy - and lord help you if you turn on the spigot and mess up the dungeon run for everyone.
I don't disagree that we need some variety and a little change up now and then - I just know that eventually it will become the norm that you MUST do the dungeon in a particular way or risk reprisal if you don't.
@Yokai_Yuri they did do scaling rewards for performance in 1.0, and people despised it so much they overcorrected to the early 2.0 dungeons. They used to have multiple paths in earlier dungeons with objectives but those got remade out of the game due to complaints. Thats why I say it can't and won't change, cause they've done it before and had so many complaints that it's just what we have now
After I finished DT and started diving into the community thoughts to see if there was any validation for my own or any counterpoint I was unable to initially see, the one thing that ruined my experience with the game the most were these kinds of people.
For every negative point anyone had, there were zero logical counterpoints. It always dwindled down to name calling and blaming things on personal taste.
Hopefully the dev team listens with a tempered ear and the game does make the changes needed to move the game into the next decade. The battle design this time around being a good start.
Ten more years of the same formula won’t hold up. Even too much of a good thing eventually becomes boring.
This honestly. I enjoyed DT, but get crucified for saying I enjoyed it. I didn't mind wuk lamat, but income the misogynists or the transphobes...its like...did you not like it or are you projecting? What did you not like? Are you saying "pacing" because every creator said they had issues with pacing, or do you even have a thought?
@@Canned_Corn_isgoodThere is quite a lot that can be criticized about DT's story. Wuk just gets the most attention, because she is there for every single moment. The scions not really participating, you just standing around while Gulool Ja Ja gets killed, important characters, like Koana, not getting the screentime they deserve...
As for harassment, both side seem to have some really rabid people. From the Woke Lamat crowd, to the people who immeditly call you ist or phobe is you dare to say anything bad about her, even if you in no way shape or form mention the voice actor.
Just yesterday, under Zepla's highlight video, there was a dude going after everybody who had a negative opinion on DT.
It is like the floodgates have been opened, now that negative opinions are accepted and some people go way too far with it while other can't handle this being a thing
@@tryagain6691Don't remind me of that stuff. I just choose not to say anything in my FC since I prefer not being called transphobic for disliking Wuk Lamat (I'm not transphobic, I love trans people. I protected a lot of them back in high school from assholes).
That said, the voice actress hasn't been helping with stirring the pot online, going as far to imply players who dislike Smile are racist. I miss the days where if someone made such an outrageous statement, we'd all point and laugh at them. Now it's taken as gospel
Something has shifted for sure. I feel like the defensive walls have fallen somewhat. Well. For many
The biggest problem with FF14, in my opinion, is that the people who built it long since left the company.
So now you have this underlying code nobody knows how to work with anymore. Imo, that's why they for rid of TP, made all the jobs in their roles play similarly and you have ancient systems that don't get improved upon...because nobody knows how.
Add to that most of the team being replaced by newblood over time and you understand why the passion that created FF14 2.0 is gone now.
Dawntrail is just the part of the downwards spiral where people notice. It started when they changed how cross-class skills work and has been going on ever since.
Yep. Koji-fox is out as the main translator we some pink haired woke who brought woke lamat
Toxic positivity wasn't an issue when the story was good. I think Shadowbringers was the single greatest achievement in MMO history. I will caveat that with the fact that I did not experience all of it, as I jumped in about halfway through with the raiding side of things, and have yet to complete any Ultimates even to this day, but to me there was literally nothing to dislike about ShB. Post-MSQ Endwalker is where things started plummeting fast, I think the story around the Alliance raid was utterly forgettable. Post MSQ quests had their moments, but as I'm writing this I am struggling to name any characters from it. The gulf between the quality Ishikawa's writing and whoever came afterward is VAST. Add to that the mediocre voiceacting and horribly misplaced music, and now the formulaic nature of questing in 14 starts sticking out like a sore thumb too, making the overall experience just honestly offensively bad. For 40 something hours with so little gameplay and so much story, you HAVE to make a better story than this.
Maybe it's cause I don't seek out janky games to play, but I have never before found a game to be offensively bad until I played DT MSQ. And some of that is down to how good the stuff that came before was, for sure. In a vacuum I wouldn't rate DT MSQ to be a 0/10, but with the context of just how good the story has been before, I can't help but wonder what the hell they were thinking at SE.
Yeah, I dunno about being the vocal minority on this, when I'm struggling to think of one video I've seen where people actually liked Dawntrail. And that one person was talking about 'Smile'. One person.
I apparently am also apart of the minority, cuz I really fucking loved DT and honestly I liked it more then hw mostly because of the theming and the zones.
My sub is running out in 8 days and I don't plan to change that fact at the moment. DT was the worst thing that could've happened to this game. The cherry on top was Wuk Lamat stealing your spotlight in the last trial, dealing way more damage than the freaking WoL.
gotta let THAT group subvert everything
The game absolutely wasn't always this formulaic. That mainly started in SB and was really cemented with ShB. Look at some of the ARR and HW content.
So one problem with dawntrail criticism is one side loves it so much that these kind of people just attack others verbally just for not liking something
Gods my head hurting cause of this fact being revealed to me
dawntrail really showed me how toxic the community can get...twitter and reddit are terrible places regardless but you really see the horrible side of it all on there and how so many ff players make the game their entire personality, Dawntrail is a slog through and through i do believe it would of never lived up to endwalker but regardless of that fact it should of still been a fun adventure with a story that grips you, what we got was akin to ARR alot of running back and forth with no real payoff in story beat's let alone the fact the EN voice acting was sub par at best for the first time in 6 years of playing i actually switched to JP VA it was that bad, now credit where credit is due the raids and post game content in general has been really fun and they have deffo stepped up the game....but you have to go throughs hours and hours of trash to even reach that point which can sour the mood.
What's important is to not consider anyone who likes dawntrail to be partaking in toxic positivity. Some people just like it, and that's okay. Everyone's opinion needs to be respected, but their actions should still be judged. For example, theres nothing wrong with disliking the voice acting, but harrassing the voice actors themselves is unacceptable. Likewise, it's fine to say thsy you liked the game, but you shouldn't insult people who are just expressing the opinion that they don't
She said i'm racist because i don't like Smile 💀❤
doesn't help when you have people who actually put effort in their criticisms being muddled with those just calling something "bad" with no reasoning or thoughts. even then, it's like that with any community. there's no real justification for how annoying the people defending the story are.
DT's story pacing and focus were rough.
That isn't to say the MSQ was bad, but it has a lot of problems and creates issues for the next set of expansions as it was ostensibly meant to be the setup for a new larger arc. Instead it became 'Wuk Lamat wants to become the Hokage' the expansion with every other major character development being shrunken or essentially glossed over. This includes the WoL's supposed position as 'mentor' to Wuk Lamat.
The reason why jobs are the way they are is because they tried that individuality in HW. Due to it some job not meshing well with others they got kicked or avoided. Did people forget that.
And now jobs are getting kicked and avoided because the only thing left to interact with is HP, and some jobs do that better than others. In a game that lets you change your job any time you like, why not give every job its own niche? In casual content, the differences would be negligible anyway, and hardcore content would encourage every player to find two or three jobs they enjoy. X|V's predecessor XI does this extremely well.
@@Stammer6 Thats not the same thing. If you were a mnk,brd,mch,pld in HW no one wanted you on their team because it was a dmg loss. This was due to the changes made to them. Yeah they were unique but that made it difficult to group with. These jobs were basicly dead. It also made balance hell to deal with because a change to one job could make it manditory in job comp. Things like brd/drg and pld slashing dmg. pld not being able to block magic was also an issue. So if they bring it back this will happen again in different flavors. People are already giving drk flack for its poor defence and lack of dmg. Most people who talk about homogenization didnt play 2.0 up to HW. There was a meta where NIN was a must on teams due to it being able to buff dmg and manage tanks aggro so tank could keep dmg up. So a dps slot was already taken before the comp was even made. The moment some content drops where 1 of the job shines brighter then the others. Players will mandate it. Once players start discriminating based on your main then we will be back to the HW issue. Its like going through hardships, fixing the problem, then having new blood that didnt know about the hardships trying to bring it back unknowingly. All they need to do is keep homogenization just enough to were 1 job doesnt out right over take the others. Jobs can pretty much do the same thing but just have different ways to get there.
@@Stammer6that's not the same you have no idea how bad it was in HW. Even the casual players where doing it to.
I think you're forgetting that a very large portion of the playerbase was not around for HW.
job homogenaization is a necessary sacrifice to prevent toxic meta, as people who were around for HW know very well, and for the most part it worked out pretty well. The issue really is that some jobs fail pretty hard at delivering their aesthetics, while others don't.
There's a reason people are complaining that DRK is still the exact same shit it's been since two expansions ago while WAR players are plenty happy with the job that's using the literal exact same combo since ARR with just some extra salt and pepper thrown into it each expansion.
It's fine for all the jobs to do the same as long as they have different, thematically appropiate ways to get there.
and honestly, tanks are having the worst of it by far. Most dps jobs have fairly defined, unique job identities despite this homogenization, and the healers actually feel quite distinct as the "I see damage, I erase the damage" mage, the "I akshually know the exact response to that problem" mage, the "I always plan four steps ahead" mage, and the "I got everything in control!" mage. tanks have the worst of being all the same job, but WAR has very strong aesthetics, PLD has extra team defense buttons, and GNB... at least has the uniqueness of being pointlessly busy despite not being any better at what it does. DRK got basically nothing that the other jobs don't have and is slacking on the aesthetic.
I don't hate wuk lamat because of whats between the voice actors legs, I hate the character because the english voice actors performance was shit and she was poorly written,
Before even getting into the hot mess that was spheneeeeeeeeee, The way Wuk was written just made the character so....... inconsistent.
Think about it, she throws up from seasickness 4 times, yet SOMEHOW got to Eorzea. She talks about how much she loves her home yet has apparently in all her years barely stepped out of the capital (Again how did she cross the sea?).
Why did the writing staff not think to give her the fight first ask questions later traits of her father? Honestly can you imagine a cutscene starting with us trying to talk our way out as usual only for wuk to run in off scene, cut us off mid chat and just start the battle? Alisaie would of loved that, would of been brilliant. Shes the head of resolve AND a warrior.
We've lost another chance of getting a good written axe wielding strong lady AGAIN, it was bad enough when we lost moenbryda!
tbh i only see critism of DT. Very rarely i see positive thoughts on it, But i dont use twitter or reddit bc these are awfull places in general. But UA-cam is full of critic towards DT. I liked DT. The dungeons, raids, trials, savage, crafter quests, music,experience gain from aglaia and fates and some of the job changes and new skills are all great. It has its weak points i agree, story and the overall voice acting was bad on many occasions. FFXIV won't die bc of it but like i said in the beginning i see more negative thoughts about DT here on UA-cam and rather rarely people attacking others for this opinion. I myself got attacked on comments bc i liked DT overall.
Same experience here. I fully enjoyed Dawntrail and think it's a good expansion, and anytime I dare to voice this, people just come and attack me for it.
All i'm seeing is toxic NEGativity.
Depends on what content you are consuming mainly. UA-cam and sites track what you are watching and feed you things similar, putting you into a bubble unless you specifically look up stuff counter to what the algorithm feeds you.
As for like or dislike the expansion, I think some people like some things in it, I myself liked some things, I enjoy Koana for instance, visuals and of course the gameplay content after the MSQ. Though I also dislike a bunch of things too. Many people just get emotional when the game that is their game gets positive or negative reactions. Both sides overeact because it is an emotional response rather then rational, look at WOWs community during Shadowlands for instance. As for what some ones opinion is on stuff, you like it or dislike it, thats fine and valid. Every game has people who like them or dislike them, even some that are seen as very bad by the majority still have player bases who adore them.
Though I do hope FF14s team continues to try and improve what they are doing and fix issues that a majority of the player base points out and that is my opinion.
@@eternaljohhny4908 you are right and like 80% of the content creator and their comment sections i normaly watch bash DT. And in these comment sections i got attacked multiple times for liking most of DT. The story is bad and the va's are bad this time, at least the english ones. I changed it to japanese and german, much better.
I hope too that the team takes the feedback and improves again on the story. But overall i enjoy DT much more then Heavensward or ARR on release. Heavensward especially was a shitshow.
@@phbaum6186See, I think the VA’s did great. They weren’t given the most to work with, which harms people’s reception (ignoring the bigot responses, that were just stupid and louder than anything else).
I think they tried to throw too much at the wall without delving into the details they should have to make the story richer.
Honestly? I thought that terrible song and Wuk’s overly positive approach was a way of poking at the toxic positivity in the community.
I wish I could get into it. Maybe it will get better I'm at the 97 quests for msq now.
It is important to keep giving feedback. Both positive and negative. Yoshida is a person that understands that he and his team have to continue to improve the game. He knows he operates in an economy of attention, and must continue to develope the game in a way that keeps the players attention. It's why his team is very receptive to feedback. But as with most things, change may make 1 group of people happy, but can also make another unhappy. So its always a tight rope walk when implementing changes.
For example,1 recent change that didnt get pushed through in the 7.05 patch, was the removal of aome positionals for Viper. They had planned to make adjustments there, but saw an overwhelming pushback agaunst this, so they left it be, and only removed the debuff.
6:10 You brought up such good points only to use THAT as your example of a "problem"
1. How is that a problem or to have any actual impact on the story in any way?
2. living memory was impactful because you turn it off, not because it existed as a "surprise" even though it was hinted multiple times and even directly spelled out for us in some text lines before getting there.
What would you propose as a solution to this? Making it so we dont know how much content we are paying for with an expansion?
I straight up lost all alignment with your statements the instant you picked something so pointless and stupid to use as your example of a problem with the game...
Instead for an example of a an actual problem... 6:19 Look at the Mi'qote's eyes and tell me that is not a problem. This graphic bug is on every character other than hrothgar and somehow nobody is talking about it.
Is she looking left or right?
I would have to push back against the "structure" of how ffxiv and focus more on the quality of that structure. Players didn't have much of an issue in most of the past 10 years. Yeah there were hiccups and such from real world events happening to cause those hiccups but as long as the content in of itself is good there would be no complaints. The 6th zone was never a surprise until Shadowbringers. Heavensward was Azys lla from which the only thing there was Bahumats wife and fighting Thordan. The zone in of itself was only important to lore people and not so much the story. Stormblood was just The Lochs, i.e. the Ala Mhigan main city. From which honestly almost no one even remembers or even cares about.
Shadowbringers made the 6th zone significant by being a visual story telling of what Emet was desiring in his heart for his people. Endwalkers 6th zone was the visual mental abuse Meteion has gone through from absorbing the negativity of thousands of civilizations. The 6th zone of Dawntrail did not sit in the players heart long enough for us to care. Nor did it give lines to each cast member to think about the potential deep ramifications of what they had to do. Shadowbringers had the scions think about what Aumoraut meant to Emet. Ultima Thule had the scions talk to each other about what the zone meant to Meteion. There was no discussion between the cast in Living Memory about what the zone means to take the life of those that seem happy or anything else. The idea of Endless was not even introduced into the players mind until msq lv 98, think about that. The writers of Dawntrail were far to amateur to not only right something really thought provoking but how to pay it off as well. So either they are bad writers or there were structural problems in what way the team wanted the story to go and thought they could pull it off. Well, they couldn't.
....Idk I actually really enjoyed living memory and thought they pulled it off well enough, however a bit too much of it hinged on liking Erenvile's mom.
cut off two zones of future addons and make it only 4-5 new zones, so we can get more side content for patches etc. like a whole MSQ zone in between addons - instead of doing 6 zones per addon, add less but much bigger zones OR add a post-addon MSQ zone that is a part of the world, something you can travel to, is connected to other zones, and not a lame NPC that just teleports you into the instance like with most patch content.
They could could have made dawntrail like an introduction Addon and "jump in point" for new players like ARR was, more seamless connected zones, with a more grounded story, adventure and exploration without a world ending crisis, without the scions, and without all that solution 9 plot and ugly looking sci-fi crap we instead got...
A timeskip would be amazing, giving some characters a complete redesing and new lore... something i thought they would do after the end of Endwalker but no...
the formula of the addons has gotten so predictable and boring over the years. DT could have been a good start to finally change something fundamentally... try something new, taking some risks in trying new things... but no, same old same old
It's hard to listen to many critiques of dawntrail when every video, comment, post, or thread about enjoying dawntrail has a flood of people saying you're stupid and low IQ for enjoying it. I don't disagree that there's toxic positivity (I'd argue much less than there used to be in late shb/early ew), but the toxicity for discussion exists on a large scale on both sides.
This comment unfortunately describes the majority of FF XIV's playerbase perfectly.
30000% correct. These people helding devs and yoshi p as if they were gods reincarnated that can do no wrong doing is ridicolous and cringe af. Has been happening since shb. It was not as prevalent before that.
It's the emperor new clothes effect. People saying they love wuk lumat and the story are afraid to admit their favorite game they spent 1000hrs was rightfully bad. The players that are criticizing the expansion want to make the game better because they see and called out a naked king.
Why not a bit less condescending dismissal of others? Some people may have enjoyed WL but found the character given the short end.
I thought the character was “meh” but had potential. WL got a lot better later on, but we weren’t given enough time away from the character to see her grow without us guiding her along.
I think the issue is more so that people have different ideas of what would make this game better. To me the game being formulaic And job homogenization are good things others are very critical of that game design. To me job balance is very important to others job identity and uniqueness is more important and both sides are very critical and think the other side wants to silence theirs. Some people think everything that developers do is good elders would like to see things be better, but better means different things to different people. We should just keep an open mind and be open to discussions.
if you take the issue of DRK for example, and you think there’s nothing wrong with it because you appreciate job identity. You are arguing both against changes to the game direction and in agreement with what other people would perceive us bad decisions by the developers. So if I disagree with you, I may think that you are overly positive about bad things in the game, but you probably think I am overly positive about every job being the same or they having a formula.
The feedback that streamers give that's critical this time around happens to go against how I felt about the expansion but people like me don't have any voice.
A lot of us really connected to Wuk Lamat and loved the story but because we're not content creators we can only speak our mind in the comments.
Less "toxic positivity", more "toxic community".
Dawntrail really exposed the true face of some of the fans.
People said this about endwalker, dawntrail, shadowbringers, and honestly I’d bet money they said it about storm blood too, real people are just disappointing, doesn’t matter what game you’re playing on, if you have to rely on other human beings, you’re going to get disappointed.
14 showed it's toxic side the instant you had that wow exodus during shadowlands
@@scorpiowarrior7841because more wow players started critisizing without experiencing in whole or understanding it. If you think about it its more ex-wow players bashing it.
@miroslavkonecny8527 I mean that's not really probable but honestly you're not wrong. A lot of the dawntrail critisim reminds me a lot of wows very loud "critical" audience
@@miroslavkonecny8527 the one person in my static that had the most negative opinion of DT has never played wow in his life
Could this be something of a social media thing? I only really talk to people in game and in my static and I don't think I've ever met anyone who tries to shut down criticism of the game. From the other comments it seems like Twitter could be a bad contributor to this?
400 hours and I have never seen this “toxic” positivity.
I have met people like this in game all the time it's crazy.
One of the things I’d like at this point is a realm reborn 2. Not narratively, but on the technical side. The back-end “spaghetti code” has been noted as an issue for some time now, how much longer can they work under those constraints?
they are just not interested in taking risks FF14 is SE's cash cow they wont take any risks with it
The problem with Dawntrail is that it's trying to condense the whole story of Realm Reborn to Endwalker into 1 expansion with a new story and setting from a new charaters PoV.
Yet Stormblood was from Lyse's story and PoV mostly and there we didn't get bothered with Lyse being there. Since we got involvement too. Stormblood was moving too fast through it's locations and one area felt entirely pointless to me in Stormblood, namely: The Azim Steppe's. They are cool but.. in the grand scheme.. I felt like a side story.
In DT we had one area that was litterly: "Here is some side plots before the next big plot point shows up and some fan service"
The biggest problem was a lot of lack of voiced cutscenes that played out liked voiced... a lot of moments I was going: "Why isn't this a solo instance? Endwalker and Shadowbringers allowed us to."
Now I wasn't expecting Endwalker or Shadowbringers again on quality levels. Atleast something better then Realm Reborn and at best Stormblood.
And the story... did do that, but only since of some payouts. But the more I looked at the journey.. the more I go with: "This is just repeating (INSERT EXPANSION)"
It's a rough start to a new chapter.. but in reality... FF14 always had major bumps in the road. 1.0 was terrible, 2.0 was good but looking back is weak in the story department and pacing.
Heavensward was great, Stormblood was a stepback in the story, Shadowbringers is topnotch and is the best expansion, Endwalker is phenomonal but had some pacing issues, post game felt fine and a great love letter to FF4.
Dawntrail is now in it's post launch patches and well... there is still enough ways to steer it back. Stormblood's post game was phenomonal especially leading towards Shadowbringers. Endwalker's post game was kinda disconnected...but still neat.
And realm reborn's post game is where the game started to truely shine.
I hate to be "That guy" but until we see the true "Final chapter of Dawntrail" I cannot fully decide where to rate it, but as it stands. It is about the same as Stormblood.
The ability to change living memory was so cool, and im very excited to see what they do with it in the future (cough cough 13th shard cough cough the empty cough)
I criticize the games I love precisely because I care about them, and I want them to be better. Negative feedback is as important as positive feedback. Both are tools you use to steer the game in a direction that benefits everyone.
FFXIV is perfect in every way and does not need to improve at all. /S
totally 💯💯💯 😎😎😎
Too much Wuk on this. I'll say that unlike most I loved Stormblood more than the previous 2 expansions (not overall, just the later parts of Stormblood). I also loved Endwalker. But Dawntrail felt like something that could have been amazing, but got ruined mostly due to Wuk being the center of the story and too much at that, on top of she just not being that good of a character to focus on imo.
The game itself, I believe it went in a better direction, but not enough to make up to how much the story degraded. But I do hope it keeps getting better and devs keep changing their mind of just listening to the bubble of the playerbase that is coping too hard to not be able to be critical towards a game they love.
I don't think wuk ruined it and honestly imo she kinda backed off in importance signicantly in the latter half. What degraded the story for me was bullshit motivations (ZORAAL JA AT THE START...My GOD I cannot imagine writing worse motivations for a villian jesus christ), Some glaring inconsitancies (how can Alexandria even exist if it experienced a calamity? they would've just rejoined the source and all of them would be dead...which clearly isn't the case), and characters felt really really stupid at times (how did Mamook REALLY not think of planting different crops insetad of giving up and going straight to conquest, how did the Hanu just completely forget what their yearly ritual did or even stood for?), and also just....how...the entire second half basically could've probally been avoided had Gulool Ja ja just....Not been a shit dad to Zoraal ja. But I also don't hate wuk lamat and actually enjoyed her character for the most part.
@@scorpiowarrior7841 It got too little Scion and WoL moments for her to shine, when it didn't need to be the case. Especially the Scions. It was a good opportunity to give more story for Scion members like Krile, but it was done so poorly imo.
@chobitsotaku5613 yeah I do agree the scions were really hard sidelined but I think it's kinda because the writers probally don't know what to do with fully developed chatacters....which the scions are, literally all of them have already had their arcs aside from maybe y'shtola. That being said my god the rite of succession was really dissapointing in how little conflict it brought between the scions. I was really hoping for a solo duty that's just like....the wol vs thancred
@@scorpiowarrior7841 Right? I was expecting exactly that as well, going vs the Scions or one of them somewhere in there, would be fun.
I still got hope for something good on the post-expansion patches, those tend to do very good in every expansion imo. Personally still have to find a post-expansion that disappointed, as they were all great. At least dungeons themselves and trials were really enjoyable, despite the story told when doing them. Do hope they become less formulaic, especially at the cost of the story.
Eh, I enjoyed the MSQ as a whole. Some parts had slow pacing but otherwise I liked it as a whole.
Some of Wuk Lamat's voice acted scenes were a little flat but I still overall liked her as a character as well as Koana, Gulool Ja Ja, and even Bakool Ja Ja who I loved to hate for most of the game though I felt his redemption was a bit forced.
As for job homogenization, I don't see it but I think that's more because I see job fantasy based on visuals rather than simply number of buttons pressed and what those buttons do. Paladin doesn't feel like Warrior which doesn't feel like Gunbreaker to me and so on. If buttons pressed and uniqueness of those buttons is what helps job uniqueness for others it should be addressed.
As for content cycle... I don't want it to change. I can decide what games I'm playing when during content lulls because it is reliable.
Yea this has become a huge issue with 14, like, if you don’t have a huge following or audience you just can’t critique or criticize ANYTHING without being called a hater. But let a big name creator say the exact same thing lmaoooo people become huge yes-men.
I LEGIT, was kicked from my FC because I said the PVP in FF14 was dogshit. Reason, "no negativity allowed about the game" These people are such a cancer on the game that its suffocating. "I really want that mech mount from doing PVP but I can't be damned too play that dogshit. I rather buy the red version of it on the market board as a compromise"
That's ridiculous.
That's why I don't do FCs. Most are ff14 cult worshippers. Its weird..
This is why I don't do FCS. most are ff14 cult worshippers. Its really weird.....😮😮😮😮😮
on how DT Z6's change was not well received due to it "looking bad": I thought this was obvious while playing through it, but apparently not many people saw it this way, so... I think this was on purpose to connect to the theme of knowing when to let go and move on. After the first time you switch off an area, you know what's going to happen when you do it again, and it's undesirable, but, you have to, or else you can't continue the story, just as in-story you have to "kill off" part of an utopia so that new life can go on untethered to it. A genuine "bad on purpose" moment.
...Though the same effect could have been achieved better. As it is, post-story Z6 doesn't look "worse", it looks straight-up "bad". given how the original look was so filled with articial lights and smoke and mirrors everywhere, leaving the actual architecture of the place untouched but switching off all those lights would probably have worked just fine and leave a "worse" but pleasantly melancholic landscape behind. As it is, instead, it looks more like the meshes were left there but the textures got removed, it's just plain ugly.
I love Final Fantasy XIV. I especially liked the last two expansions. I was pretty excited to see what was to come after the whole post MSQ story regarding Zero and Golbez, but was a bit disappointed on how things developed in Dawntrail. Wuk Lamat's questline for the first half of the story was pretty bland, and I didn't find myself getting engrossed in it. This was especially devastating because when I first met Wuk Lamat, I thought she was going to be a fabulous character. I slowly started liking her less with her whole "happiness and peace" view on things. Because of this, I pretty much tempered my expectations for the finale, which was a good thing I did since I wasn't exactly blown away from the last zone or the final trial. And don't get me started on Wuk Lamat's performance in the finale... I did like the final dungeon though, it was pretty cool.
I understand it's going to be hard to create content on par with Shadowbringers and Endwalker, but I'm kind of hoping that post MSQ will bring more significance to this expansion's name: Dawntrail.
We got the Key. Whatever story happens after, this relic will be very important to it.
I feel like a lot of people in the real world need to see that sort of character more, because they're too focused on hatred and pain and fear (their own or that belonging to others) that they DON'T actively push for such a positive world around themselves or they're actively violent people in how they treat the world.
I work with people who have openly talk about how they will gladly pull out their gun to shoot a guy immediately for simply walking up to them in the street, because they wouldn't want to give THEM a chance to draw on them first. The world is fucked up and people need to be shown a different way.
@@DrakeWurrum There's nothing wrong with positive characters, but Wuk Lamat did it to a point where it got painful to watch. It almost reminded me of Alphinaud and the Crystal Braves. Alphinaud started reaching a point of arrogance and it totally backfired on him, knocking him down a few pegs. The world isn't so black and white, and it seems Wuk may need to learn that the hard way.
The ff14 twitter community is especially bad because you cant make any kind of criticism without being called some kind of -phobe or -ist especially with the debates involving Wuk. People fighting tooth and nail saying the expac was perfect when it's really not. I truly believe they should have spent more time on this expac to fix a lot. At least in terms of story and characters, the battle content is going in a good direction atm.
Yeah the whole wuk lamat sitation is something I got into a bit a couple days ago in a vid, but yeah. Like some people are 100% just being transphobic about it which is dumb, but it's also dumb to dismiss all criticism of the character and the story as just that when imo, there's a bunch of legitimate criticism that can and is being levied at that character specifically and also the writing overall with DT
Exactly, I personally said I didn't like wuk cuzs to me at least she seems speed run. Instead of letting her grow. The writing seemed poor to me, and FF14 is my top rpg story. I hold it to a higher standard.
From what I've heard and seen, it seems to me a perfectly valid criticism that the VA is unable to emote the lines properly, perhaps due to their situation, or perhaps not. Either way, would WL having a stronger VA have helped flesh out her character and make her more tolerable?
That is 100 a criticism I also shared throughout DT, I didn't like the voice acting for wuk lamat myself, but I didn't like the voice acting across the board for the most part sans G'raha. There's a few scenes that are pretty good, but I don't know whether to chalk it up just to Wuk Lamat's VO specifically, or if there is a larger voice direction issue with DT (which is what I suspect to be the case, and we just put it all on Wuk Lamat cause she has far and away the most dialogue
The weird thing is that most people didn't even know who the actor was (or don't even play in english, like me). And then you start seeing game journalists basically picking fights and throwing stones. Now is really difficult to have an honest discussion.
Omg i agree so much with you! Its nice af to see someone who can be critical without absolutely hating on it, i LOVE this game with all my heart but some of the community could be far less toxic in terms of gameplay too these ppl that are so burnt out on the game being jerks to everyone new is NOT helping the community at all either so its tit for tat on alot of things
Agreed. Heck, I paid for the sub and I have the right to feedback about the game. I will STFU if these fanboys/girls funded my sub.
Community are divided in DT and the game has been getting some mixed reviews. Clearly the glory of SHB and EW is history.
I have experience where FFXIV community is the most toxic community I have ever seen in a pyscho way..
People are not allowed to say something is bad in this game and 9 people will pop-up with their toxiciy..
Sorry I play other online game like LoL but FFXIV is something special
I've even seen people bend themselves into pretzels prefacing their reasonable criticism and critiques with all the praise of the game as a whole they can muster - still to have people tell them to go play something else then.
It'd be like someone telling you to just abandon your kids if you have anything critical to say to them. "How dare you tell your child not to touch the hot stove - you're a terrible parent! You don't deserve your kids!"
@esperan2k I have seen people attack me in 3 different account just because I have a discussion about tanks job design literally
People in this game are awful
You really think LoL is more toxic than FF14 which is known to be one of the less toxic games out there? Is it your agenda to talk shit about the game like the WoW virgins used to do back then?
I had a stalker tell me he was in love with my cat girl and stalked me (still) for 7 months, got one account banned. I never erp or rp so it was bat shiz crazy. Ff14 is the craziest community I have ever seen in gaming. When I tell my non gamer friends about this and show them the screen shots, they are shocked this happens in a game.its not a dating simulator for lonely wierdos
I see two complementary ways to make dungeon less boring, even on the long run:
-Using the RE2 remake difficulty adaptibility system based on the team performances. If during the first wall to wall they're y good, the next wall could be a lot harder, same for bosses. We could have high level difficulty dungeon (except for Sastasha that should remain a baby's first tutorial dungeon)
-Giving more interesting rewards for exploring them even if you know them by heart, with level based chest instead of a chest with that F*cking stuff that even to exchange for FC company point isn't worth waste an inventory slot.(that function would be off course desactivated during an unsync run)
The context of this video is even more important than its content. Listen to the way Jmulls feels the need to both preface and follow up any negative comment with half a dozen lines reassuring the audience that he has a positive outlook on the game's present, past, and future. If anybody is ever even suspected of having so much as a negative thought about this game, they're immediately under fire. I've seen people getting doxxed, I've seen people getting actual death threats, if they've said something bad about it.
This is legitimately terrifying. It feels like a cult. Of course everybody on the planet "loves" this game and "loves" Yoshi-P. It's an endless echo chamber of positivity that suffocates anything else. Dawntrail was the first time enough people at one time had a negative experience that there was an actual blip of resistance. But even that was eventually overwhelmed by the toxic positivity.
ya this is the real best mentality. im overall positive on dawntrail as a whole but if i couldnt talk a little bit on aspects that i feel hurt it and make it the 3/5 it is, then wed get no where.
At this point i dont engage with folks who have too much negative to say AND too little
Fair take. I did find the toxic negative voices a lot more prevalent for DT - too many people can't seem to face their disappointment with an okay story with some interesting ideas and an very flawed execution without having to declare it the worst thing ever.
This right here. Some people need to go out and consume some truly bad stories to understand that DT is flawed but can improve.
To be fair, I think the vehement defense of anything FFXIV-related from the toxically positive side of the fandom drives many critical people towards hyperbole just to be heard. Some also feel a lot of the writing choices to be offensive on a thematical level and react more emotionally because of that. Constructive criticism is of course much more helpful, but when every even slightly critical comment, no matter how well-phrased, gets swarmed by people calling it delusional and subjective with no merit, then some people will eventually stop being calm about it. Not defending some of the crass and transph*bic people, though, they shouldn't be listened to.
what "interesting ideas"? repeating Amaurot is not interesting. Repeating someones story that already happened is not interesting.
@Sneedmeister My favourite example: Tackling a society where grief gets instantly excised via regulator was a fascinating concept that could have carried the last act by itself and created a different approach to the themes of ShB (inability to let go) and EW (facing inevitability). Unfortunately the idea gets brought up and is immediately dropped again.
I think there is good stuff in there, it's just not executed well, and what we do get is focusing on the least interesting aspects. The last zone could have been devastating, with the proper setup.
@@beraan7930 might have been interesting in its own flushed out story, not in the middle of a set of rushed quests that makes your eyes bleed jumping around so much...
I'll just say that DT is gonna live or die by its patch content
Entirely agreed
It's important to give your opinions on a game realistically especially when you have a team that actually listens to the players. Don't get me wrong me and many people I know absolutely love FFXIV otherwise I wouldn't have several thousands of hours in it. I already felt it was a bit lacking story wise after playing it myself and even the most hardcore fan I know that has played since the original final fantasy 1 on the NES has had issues with it.
Everyone needs to see this comment. Notice how important it is for them to point out that they love X|V and have played many hours into it before saying just one negative thing about it. This is scary. The entire community just descends on negativity like vultures unless it's prefaced with undying love for the game.
I say this any chance I get when it comes to topics like this:
Criticism, done correctly, is love. I love plenty of mid, or even bad, games. And it is because I love them, I will praise AND reprimand them. For a game, or anything really, to survive, it needs creative criticism. For every very real issue, the product rots. And the absolute last thing you want is for the rot to reach the spine. Once it has rotten nigh to the core, it is virtually unsalvageable. If you love something, you will do what you can to keep it healthy. Just as doctors must hurt to heal, so too must fans.
Agreed, if I am heavily critiquing a game or at least talking about it, generally means I still care about it for some reason, but when i just give up and stop even giving critique is when I just simply no longer care. It's why I left WoW a while back because I largely just stopped caring
At the end of the day it has been getting more structurally formulaic each expansion. But the quality of the story usually outweighs these other elements for me. The main issue is Dawntrail’s messaging seems counterintuitive to what has come before, especially with the whole Endless plot line. It seems the developers both want to and don’t want to tell the particular story. I’d say directionless is an apt description but Dawntrail sometimes actively goes against the moral and themes of Endwalker.
Pretty much agree with everything you said. DT was super lackluster as an expansion and sorely missed the ShB/EW writer in the room. Too much stuff happened off screen that was teased as major story beats, and a ton of character motivations were disappointingly one note to the point of absurdity. The whole thing hinged on whether or not you thought Wuk was the greatest and bestest character ever due to our OCs playing a mentor role in her journey. Sure, she had some character growth, which was a saving grace, but she was kind of the embodiment of the topic of the whole video and her mid fight spotlight steal at the very end borderline ruined the fight because it made no sense for it to even happen given the context of the moment. Post MSQ has a LOT of water to carry for this expansion.
SE also has to be way more careful with how they handle other franchise entries being included in the game. Yes, 14 is basically a shared nexus for the whole franchise, but FFIX got done dirty compared to other entries and it makes me really concerned for the upcoming Alliance Raid due to how beloved FFXI was/is to a niche chunk of the player base.
Game feedback is important, but I notice many don't give feedback. Writing or saying "this sucks" is not communication or feedback as much as it is venting. I think it's no better than saying "this is the best". These are just people letting emotions out more than giving a good critique and I tend to ignore both extremes when reading reviews. There should be a balance, but people just saying "Dawntrail sucks and this VA ruined it" doesn't seem like good criticism to me since there was way more wrong with DT than any one VA.
I became dissolutioned when Summoner got massacred in EW and still remains massacred
If we are being honest with ourselves, ShB summoner was not going to fit into the new 2 minute meta they are using for job burst windows. Not with its 3+ minute long opener. Add to that the button bloat that job had and that this game does also need to be playable on console with a controller and it is pretty obvious something was going to change.
Add to that Yoship-P and crew specifically stated they didn't like the pet system and dots as a whole, and yeah. It was inevitable.
Also as someone who played both old and new summoner.. I like new summoner. It's flashy and makes my brain happy lol.
New summoner is braindead and that's just what you want to do sometimes. Turn your brain off, press 1 button for a minute and not worry about anything just enjoy the fight
@@stormkeeper1741 I also played both, and not even optimizing the old one was just such a chore - it was frustrating not being able to get all the GCDs in occasionally. This new version, pretty easy peasy to play halfway decently without issues.
@@adamm1117 me after work. I wanna chill for a bit, not think.
😮 old smn was better new smn is braindead ex. Ff14 is cooked
This is such a cathartic listen both in terms of having healthy expectations for Dawntrail’s future and not being afraid to say what is plaguing FFXIV. Now that isn’t to say that this game will never be any problems worth addressing, or even just toxic positivity is the only issue with the community, but it’s way more valuable to give them good feedback to build off of it and always be honest with the developers even if we really don’t like something. I get the feeling the devs love when we are transparent and constructive, and I hope there’s more of that for Dawntrail and it’s patch cycles. I believe in this games future, and doing so by not just blatantly blowing away criticism by calling people naysayers, and not just calling it irremediably terrible with no chance of being better. Apologies for the rambling, but I couldn’t help but feel so satisfied listening to your thoughts JMulls. Cheers.
Why even bother with people that complain? Alot of the time you'll just waste your energy bickering amongst each other. Dont worry about the weather, just let the wind blow.
I personally am not looking forward to new Bozja as I absolutely hated Bozja/Zadnor, but unfortunately the new relics will probably be tied to that place.
I never even stepped foot into either of them, barely stepped into the first Eureka either. I liked the ARR style relics personally, and HW was OK. Yeah, some of the RNG stuff was annoying as hell, but I enjoyed having something I could work on little by little.
What did you dislike about that content? (Out of curiosity)
I did Bozja as it was coming out, and I did it with friends and FC members, so that helped. I also didn't do the 1v1's that people loved about Bozja/Zadnor. I can't be bothered to do Eureka because no amount of friends can make me like that grind-fest. I know some people like that kinda thing, but it wasn't for me. Back on the Bozja thing tho, I don't like the ShB Relics being tied to it, because when I went back on my own to get the WAR Relic shortly before Endwalker released, the instance was a ghost town, and I didn't want to have to go through outside channels to get the people to do the content I needed.
@@TajinQ Me? I tried out Eureka pretty late, so I was largely on my own, and the enemies were super OP compared to my character, even at max level. It felt like I was having to do everything over from scratch. Didn't like the whole elements system or trying to figure it out effectively. I figured Bozja was more of the same when it came out, so I only did the first couple of steps of that outside of Bozja and never finished any of those relics.
@@SageTigerStaryou can literally do all the shb relic steps outside of bozja
*literally tons of people and big streamers come out criticizing the game with almost no pushback* But toxic positivity tho.
Hi! I agree with you overall. I just wonder what you meant by saying they were taking a risk with the ideas within the MSQ? Because I personally feel like their ideas for the MSQ were solid. Where they went wrong is choosing a junior writer who clearly is incapable of focusing on more than one character (and quite frankly, isn't that good of a writer outside even of that). Genuine question btw, in case it doesn't come across like that!
I think Devs would want to take risks and bring new ideas into the game, but in order for them to do that, it need the player feedback AND Square Enix approval.
What I mean about SE approval?
SE is a multi-million dollar corporation, and corporations have like 2 objectives:
- Maximize profits and minimize costs
- Don't make any unnecessary risks
FFXIV was able to be reborn because of being willing to risk anything to recuperate from the financial disaster that was 1.0.
In my opinion, SE is back in that financial comfort zone, and I think they reach the mentality of "If majority don't complain, don't fix it"
You do know the stock market over there crashed like a few weeks ago especially in tech. Don't worry it's comminf they will take risk soon lol
After shadowbringers and endwalker, the msq story wasn't really good. It had its moments, wasn't all bad. But the pacing, especially prior 95 and the dreamland quests, oh man, realm reborn vibes, not bad as an idea but very boring, and yeah... on the other hand, meaningless boring quests as Final Fantasy fans in general, well we're used to it, aren't we. But the dungeons, the new way to show mechanics and the raids, man i love them. Drk suffered a bit true, but as gnb main i have to say, my job feels even better now. (I play every tank) the dreamland zone being an empty zone now doesn't bother me at all, though. But you make a lot of good points and like you i think there will be a good future for ffxiv 😊
an entire gallery of "water is wet" statements
dunno what to think about this one, tbh
Not just with games, just look at political shit in this country people are bat shit crazy you can't critize anything current party does even if it's really fucked up it's very weird behavior
I hated every second of Dawntrial. I despise skips but I would've gladly paid for one to not have to suffer through those quests and that story for another second.
but in all honesty I feel a expansion should not be used to test things I mean the EW patches already had not so good reception as the story was rushed but you use your patches to test not a full R800 expansion then they should not ask full price for a test trial; they should have rather given a major update said they are trying something new then once they have reception release a expac based on the test trial patch.
weird cuz i don't see it... Reddit, Twitter, and the forums are full to the brim of criticism. A never ending stream of the same criticisms regurgitated over and over again. In fact, i think it's been well over a year now that it's harder to find positive things about 14 online vs. negative.
Finally. An actual conversation.
When the map zone died it was a slap to the face tbh they rushed that part so fast unlike everything before it
I know this is a different take but I wish bfa refugees especially the streamer ones would just go back and leave my ff14 alone.
Dude, look at the steamcharts, pretty much noone that came during bfa/shadowlands still plays the game, they are all back to WoW or other MMOs
@@lunaticmode638 steamcharts dont mean anything because 90% of people buy the game in the website
The expansion feels like it had *several* writers, all pulling the story in vastly different directions and wanting to focus on different things. The result is an MSQ that honestly pleased nobody.
You can't ask Clowns to Act diffrently.
I have a static member that.... yea, nail on the head here.
It looks nice. The dungeons are cool. The msq is brutal. Im skipping it now. I never did that before
Yeah, I started to notice how formulaic everything is at the end of EW. It really hit me in DT because I wasn't interested in the Story for the first time ever in FFXIV. 3 trails, dungeons always have 3 bosses with 2 groups between them, dungeons are always at the odd levels and the new max level, the list goes on. I think FFXIV has the best combat and raids in any mmo, but there is really not much fresh content to do.
Really hated Woke Lamat in every cutscenes... I really think Sweet Baby Inc had something to do with this patch.
Ima be real, since DT released it’s been the exact opposite. Can’t like the story w/o being flamed, hell folks are sending death threats and constantly harassing WLs VA.
It's ironic that the stans are more toxic than the "haters" (hater is a strong word though, most of us just point out both what we enjoyed and elements we disliked about the expansion)
You gotta keep your game fun. Sometimes that means calling out the games shortcomings...... like hats for every new race.......
I know players like this and its exhausting. They take any slight criticism on the game as a slight on them as a person for enjoying the game, and then they'll rip into you. So funny though, because they're the type to sit on their high-horses and state: "all opinions are welcome!", yeah unless they're ones you don't agree with.
Don't like Wuk Lamat? Now you're a transphobe. (Even though I'm trans??).
I'm a newer player, story skipped and then played through DT. Said I didn't really like it cause it just feels like a VN where wuk Lamat is a kinda mary sue anime protagonist for most of it. I was kicked from my FC.
You also have toxic positivety.
The trend in the last two expension has been homogenization. And making tanks demigods so they can carry glarebots and healers have nothing to do.
Then healers get acostumed with the tank not needing any heal. So the only tank that cannot heal itself properly gets attacked. Tanks are supposed to mitigate. Not heal.
Meanwhile "dungeons" are just paths with exactly the same formula. To the point of being BORING. Dungeon bosses got better but dungeon trash got worse. With ranged not obeying line of sight.
Given this trend. The burden of proof is in the "It will get better" crew. Not on the "I have eyes, and in the last 2 expansion things have been getting worse" crew.
Can they fix it? Yes.
Would they fix it? Probably not. As the interest is no longer telling a good story and making good gameplay, but only of milking as much money as possible before the game fails.
Dungeons aren't complex because people will go through the whole thing once and then race through. And if you come late, you'll never get to see the whole thing.
Hallway dungeons sort of suck, but I don't see that ever changing, because it's 100% a player thing. (Really, most issues with this game outside of story stuff is player bullshit because most gamers don't know what makes a good game, at least mechanically.)
I think ff14 community is the games downfall, they don’t allow criticism, which would allow the game to grow. It’s “perfect” for people who live in ff14, the community now is run by erp creeps and gate keepers
Being formulaic is not too bad but there are degrees to it.
3 trials an expansion is fine. Having them placed at the exact same level areas (93 first trial, 99 second trial, 100 last trial) is a bit too much.
It is way to predictable. Even the dungeos are at the same levels, hell even the story beats follow a predictable pattern. I can expect lvl 99 quest to go wild in the story, i can predict when a long stretch without any duty arrives etc.
I don't get why people are upset about not seeing more job iteration in Dawntrail; Square literally said MULTIPLE times that 8.0 is gonna be the job identity start.
Peak expansion Lamaty’i my love
I'm trying to not be "TOXIC" positive, i'm OK with people giving constructive critique. What i'm not OK with is: Savage Raiders making t heir VALID complaints but not making it clear their issues are with the jobs for SAVAGE and high end content. As someone who's not YET good enough for savage content regularly, and isnt' that great at BOZJA *YET* - It can get daunting when people screech about the jobs. However, i don't like it when discords and reddits SIT there and not allow people to TALK - is stupid, and lazy and censorship yes. The fact i've heard big time discords ban people over talking about CONSTRUCTIVE details abotu jobs like Viper's changes, that have been from a "Savage level" of the optimization standpoint - or even things about the past of Samurai's job changes..
I loved Dawntrail but not AS MUCH AS endwalker, but WITH ME the thing is that i DO like dawntrail DIFFERENTLY because it's a connection point, it's a bridge.
Maybe you didn't prefer the characters no, but you have to sort of ... for me i think ti's important to go "yea maybe i didn't like xyz - but this specific area of the game is a bridge" - it's the antipodes of ARR, you don't start realizing the VALUE of the story if of course that is :P if you're a story liker--
If you're a cutscene skipper, adn you're preferably just a fight and glam nerd that's valid too XD.
I jest that people shouldn't do that but hey - as long as you're not unsyncing Dancing Plague via PF >_> i'm pretty ok with most stuff XD
There is a lot of toxic positivity but I think it's lessened a good bit now that the Shadowbringers mass influx of new players are in the regular flow of content. Most are not afraid to complain about flaws.
The formulaic nature of the MSQ is a problem as it forces the story into a specific structure (though that didn't stop Dawntrail from making us wait 3 hours before the first time we drew our weapon). They could change it but that would make leveling alt jobs harder in places due to gaps in content of the appropriate level.
Though they could fix this if other content like variant dungeons had level scaling functionality to allow them to be used for job leveling once the MSQ is complete.
I'm sorry what was this video about again?
Literally quit ffxiv for wow and wow classic and a bit of osrs. The game has just become so boring and homogenized. Same content cycle, same dance dance revolution boss mechanics, boring gear progression. The game needs a change up. I miss the old days where it had a wierd mishmash of ideas
You mean the expansion YoshiP said was "throwing things at the wall to see what sticks" isn't perfect?! Heresy!!! 😠
Story related comment, sorry its long
From my personal experience most people that I have spoken to or had a debate with about Dawntrails msq was either influenced (hearing it was boring - that nothing happens - that the characters are cringe and annoying) or didn't actually understand the story (finding this out after having the debate with them which eventually changed their perspective). After playing through it myself reading everything, and then rewatching it all again twice over, there is no doubt in my mind that Dawntrail is absolutely a top 3 expansion, and arguably as solid as both SHB and EW. Are there things wrong with Dawntrails story? Yes absolutely. but this is nothing out of the ordinary, no expansion is perfect. This is a NEW story, focusing on NEW characters. Completely different from the past 4 expansions. The story is taking the path of our character is already fully established and well respected by almost everyone. Wuk Lamat over the course of the story is learning what it means to be a traveler (adventurer like us). Starting off as being full of herself and fairly obnoxious/arrogant thinking she already knows everything, but we see that she doesn't know what's really going on (she might not even realize this herself). After coming into contact with us, and drawing the parallels between us and her father Gulool Ja Ja, she slowly starts to realize that she doesn't know as much as she thinks she does. She outright says this out loud and has this moment of self reflection. She starts to realize that there is more to the world than she will ever hope to learn. She starts to realize why her father is so well respected around the world, and see's first hand why our character is so well respected and powerful. She needs to experience the world more and peoples cultures and how things came to be the way that they are. We are a mentor figure currently for this new story. Gulool Ja Ja was as far as we know now the WoL equivalent for Tuliyollal. How the people in the lands spoke about Gulool Ja Ja is the same way people speak about us back home. We weren't there to just do everything for Wuk Lamat, we were meant to give her an example of what she wants to become and help guide her to that goal because she shares that same love for adventure that the WoL and her Father does. We learn about her people alongside her, and we visibly see and hear her change over the course of the story. And Koana in the same sense had Thancred and Urianger to help be mentors rather than people who just did everything for Koana. Two Characters that we love and that we know understands what it means to be a leader and someone who cares for others. We see Koana change through the story as well. Going from being a very cold, rigid straight edged guy that only see's things how he wants to see them. To becoming someone who understands what it means to care for people, and accepting of the fact that he can't do everything by himself. Accepting that he's not the best at everything. Giving up the rite of succession for his Sister to become Dawnservant, at this point of the story we fully understand the weight of what being dawnservant means to the people of Tuliyollal, to fill the shoes of Gulool Ja Ja. We know how big of a decision this is, and it is polar opposite of the Koana we first meet in dawntrail. We (our character) was not meant to be the center of this expansion and that's okay. The irony is that people are saying square enix is afraid of trying new things and experimenting, when almost this entire expansion is exactly that. To briefly touch on a couple of the very justified negatives. Two of the biggest problems have to be Bakool Ja Ja and Zarool Ja. To keep this brief, one example for Bakool's is his redemption failed to feel like a redemption, and felt very random/forced. He literally set free a primal that not even prime Gulool Ja Ja was able to handle, risking and accepting a massive loss of life. Yet faces 0 repercussions for this. Zarool Ja, the failure to make us feel bad for him at his death. The attempt at showing that he was struggling with the decisions he was making fell flat completely. Expressing that he just wanted to be able to essentially do something nice for his son fell flat. There wasn't enough development with Zarool Ja to successfully make the player really feel bad for him. Dawntrail is in my opinion being massively underrated. Its not perfect, but its not horrible. For a NEW story, this was absolutely excellent. ARR released as a new story. From the continuation of heavensward up to endwalker was 6 years. For something new I think they killed it. Thanks for reading if you did. These are my opinions. You're free to tell me how wrong I am. I hope reading this view of things will maybe make someone get more enjoyment from what they originally disliked.