When it comes Wuk vs Zero. Although Zero was the main character of the endwalker patch content, but i feel she never replaced the WoL, you were not just some cardboard cutout experiencing the story, the WoL is actively playing a true mentor role as they show Zero around.
That's a factor for sure, but the point of Dawntrail was that we're **not** the main character this time. We're basically the strongest person in the known universe, so when YoshiP said this was a "summer vacation" he was serious. We're taking a backseat because, let's be honest, we could solve virtually any problem on the star just by threat of force. In order to have compelling stories, they have to make us take a less active role in order to lower the stakes. Unless we come across another situation that's so large scale as to threaten the entirety of existence, we're not going to be running into any real resistance (story-wise). I think this was their attempt to try that kind of story mechanic from a certain angle, it just didn't land really well because the character progression for Wuk Lamat feels kind of forced.
Also Zero has a reason to be a character level 90 and she has this power learned from her mother of the Contramamoria so she is somehow a character with a purpose and background to be a strong character and it is not even excluded that she is our soul fragment in the 13th considering the 13th was not rejoined. Also we should not forget that zero has to be a bit peculiar, she spent thowsends of years just hounting or being hount in the enternal rebirth of the void so the story is really all about going back from a feral state to be somehow human.
@@The4thHorsemanIT Wait, I'm pretty sure Golbez (the original) is more likely to be our fragment. Was there something with Zero that made her more likely to be our reflection?
The deceased Golbez was very likely one of Azem's much like Ardbert was. Azem's fragments were not necessarily the main character of previous franchise entries.
I actually really liked Zero. She goes from 'lone wolf' who 'does things her way' to someone who learns to trust other people and understand that she can't do everything by herself. I liked watching that development over time. Meanwhile Wuk Lamat... she starts off as childish, naive, dumb, believing that peace and tacos could solve every problem (and she has seasickness because she's 'quirky' or some shit)... and she ends the MSQ the exact. same. way...
And the thing about Zero is that you understand _why_ she is like this. You understand Zero is a product of the 13th. She is a lone wolf who doesn't trust anyone because the 13th is a place where trusting others is a bad idea. Wuk Lamat, on the other hand, feels like a stranger in her own land. She doesn't know jack shit about this place she is supposed to rule, and doesn't feel like she's a product of it. You do not learn about Tural through Wuk Lamat, you learn about it despite Wuk Lamat.
I agree Zero was fine. Her introduction, in my opinion, is learning to be human again. Learning to let others in and trusting them. She's interesting and definitely someone I am looking forward to in exploring the Thirteenth with, along with Golbez. Wuk Lamat is Wuk Lamat. Toxicly positive and definitely some sort of primal with how she quickly converts people to fawning over them.
Zero: - Teaches us about her land (the 13th) - helps out in combat but never overshadows us - good VA (nothing special but still good) - Take tomboy goth gf on a 'fixing her' arc and succeed - "shall we disrobe as well?" Wuk lamat: - has to be babysat and taught about her own nation, after claiming to have known all about it and loved it. - never succeeds on her own merit and usually stumbles into a solution by dumb luck or getting us to do it for her. - asspull appearance at the end in which she overshadows not just you but 7 others with no explanation as to how she's suddenly so strong. - bad VA (and if I'm being honest, a pretty shitty person outside of that too from what I've seen)
There are huge differences in these 2 stories. The first being the post EW story isn't about Zero. She is part of the story, yes. But she isn't the driving force of it. The narrative thrust is focused on finding and rescuing Azdaja, and Zero is along for the ride as an Ally. DT is very different. The focus is o Wuk Lamat and HER quest to become Hokage, and the Scions and the WoL are along for the ride.
Even Naruto isn't actually about becoming Hokage. The Hokage thing is more just him wanting to prove himself to the villagers who hated/ignored him before. He actually cares way more about Sasuke when they leave the village than being Hokage. Naruto doesn't even become Hokage until after his series is over.
Personally, I think Wuk Lamat's story would've benefited from the writers leaning on the concept of her being the Third Promise. What do I mean by this? Let me explain: Wuk Lamat is the Third Promise, and there are only three of them. You have one guy who isn't a Promise, and yet Wuk Lamat is essentially the least capable of them all-at least on the outside. What does that make her? An underdog, and we know people love a good underdog story. Leaning into that concept would have made it so that Wuk Lamat is more than most people give her credit for. She's not nearly as intelligent as Koana because he had the advantage of education. She's not nearly as well-versed in military tactics as Zoraal Ja, or as physically or magically strong as Bakool Ja Ja-who was physically bred through eugenics to surpass normal people. But what Wuk Lamat has is her being an underdog. She's driven by insecurity because she's the one that people don't bet on to win. We find over the course of the journey that she's attentive, she listens, she notices and remembers details most others don't care to, and that she's been working herself to the bone to try and match her siblings, but she just lacks the confidence that they have because nobody's ever given her the chance to prove those capabilities. In addition to all that, just like she's more than she seems, she can also identify people who look like they're being underestimated by their culture/society, never given a chance to do something great even if they're able to. So, she gives them that chance to shine. The course of her journey then becomes elevating those underdogs because she sees their worth, and because being looked down on is a lived experience for her. By the end of each Feat, she not only proves her own worth but the worth of those underdogs who actually had the means of helping her overcome the Feats. It could even be part of the political platform that we sorely needed her to have as the Dawnservant: to make sure that all people in all their cultures are given a fair chance to do their part, just as she was allowed to. She's living proof that someone who is underestimated at every turn could rise to do something great or historic. It plays into what they wanted Wuk Lamat to be: the caring, understanding and compassionate leader. At the same time, though, you had a very good point about her 'training arc'. It should have been shown as something of a necessity for her because she inevitably-and repeatedly-comes up against Bakool Ja Ja who's just physically more powerful. A training arc with the Warrior of Light could have trained her into being something of a David to Bakool Ja Ja's Goliath, since the Warrior of Light is used to fighting and overcoming threats more than twice their size. The solo duty against Bakool Ja Ja would have probably been made more engaging by making the entirety of it using his own strength against him. Making him fall prey to his own skills, having most of his abilities be huge, HP-busting but entirely avoidable AoEs and Wuk Lamat is just wailing on him from his blindspots, etc. by being the smarter, more cautious fighter. And to better explain how she manages to defeat even Bakool Ja Ja's mooks? It's friendly fire. She leads his goons into his line of attack, and Bakool Ja Ja takes care of them for her-breaking their morale since intervening further means more casualties for them. In that way, Wuk Lamat is still able to maintain her being a compassionate and caring person, but allow her to be elevated by the Warrior of Light from her underdog status, just like she elevated those underdogs from the cultures she would have helped as well
No joke, this is genuinely where I THOUGHT the story was going with her. Basically, while Wuk Lamat isn't particularly talented or special, she'd be great at bringing out the best in *others* through just being a sweet, attentive person that she is
The biggest difference between Zero and Wuk Lamat, IMO, is that Zero's flaws and development feel much more real. Yes, she is edgy, but the story kinda makes fun of her for it. She is awkward and socially inept. She has this strange transactional view of everything. Over time, you understand what happened to the 13th and to her that made her be like this, and she also softens up while she learns from you. Wuk Lamat, on the other hand, learns nothing. Her demeanor and ideology do not change at all from the beginning to the end of her story. The narrative never mocks her or punishes her for her naivetè. Everything goes her way, and she learns no lessons. She feels very flat.
Team Zero here. She started as a blank slate and it was interesting seeing her learn. Wuk Lamat was a bit overbearing and really naive. She should have been further on her journey. As it was my WoL would have turned her down, if he ever had a choice. She might be ready in a few years, but wtf was she doing all this time that she knew so little about her world. It felt like filler while the Zero starts working on the Thirteen. My hope is that the reflections will be a major part of the next ten years and we get lots of different worlds and stories and that now and then they overlap. You did a great job on this video!
Thanks caroline! While I understand the issues people have with Zero, personally I still really like the character and the stuff involving the 13th so I'm really excited to see how it all plays out, with how cool and different each of the shards have felt so far, I'm totally down for some shard hopping adventures
They are more alike than you think, mostly in that they immediately warp the personality of every character around them and are instantly loved, it's the same writer and he can't seem to shake his shonen anime OC obsession. Wuk was a worse written character and more annoying overall but they're definitely similar in that regard.
It's a fair comparison as they both suffer from the same issues in a different way. Of course I assume you like Zero, but I don't, Zero has a good design and I don't mind the idea of her story arc but she always does the right thing no matter what and takes whatever nonsense as compensation. She is rarely shown as anything but kind hearted, and is just a bit awkward until she readjusts back into society. Sure they try to posit that she is this cold hearted voidsent who will not do anything until compensated for but the issue here is that this never really is pushed to the logical extreme of her refusing to do the right thing because she wasn't paid, and later develop a true guilty conscience. What I've always loved about FF14 is how it makes bad people who do bad things still feel human, and have people make bad choices that they have to live with. My favorite characters in 14 are flawed ones who have to live with their actions and overcome them, or go through sacrifice. Venat shatters the source into 14, bringing to it death, plague, misery, and she has to live with it as the right thing to do, as much suffering as she did cause. I'm not asking for Zero to be as complex as Venat, a character who was technically been present since 1.0, but I truly cannot recall Wuk has the same issue, she is always right, never wrong, she experiences no real growth, she just learns fun trivia about the peoples of tuli and is just vindicated in her ideology. She never fails and is never challenged.
@@ridleyroid9060what character in your party is not guilty of everything you said of Zero? 👀 who is out there making complex choices and displaying a "shades of grey" personality?
@@ridleyroid9060 she was shown as not being kind-hearted plenty of times. When she tells the team to leave her alone, when she demands compensation, when she chooses to reject teamwork and camaraderie, etc. There are numerous instances. Her distrust and isolationist views played a part in the current situation of the thirteenth. Like wtaf are you talking about? It clearly showed Zero's complexities and flaws and how there were serious consequences for them. You're either pretentious as fk, skipped story scenes or lack critical/comprehension skills. So embarrassing
with Zero, our character had an importance in the story (like the theory about OG Golbez being a reflection of WoL, or that Durante being a shard of Zenos) with Wuk Lamat, a rushed Krile's backstory and maaaaybe the Azem symbol on the key. in the end it was Wuk story with a lot of writing problems. And EW patches at least had the "fanservice" to all of us ff4 players
I honestly believe the original Golbelz was our reflection in the 13th. Although we are not directly told this, there is a reason as to why we are in the perspective of Golbez when Durante talks to us. Of course, we are technically reliving Golbez’s memories from his Memoria (I think?)
OG golbez was 100% a shard of azem. Durante being zenos I doubt though, as I'm pretty sure zenos is technically unsundered due to being a decendant of emmet-selch (don't quote me on that though as I don't think it's really brought up how that works)
Zero was a very much "fish out of water" story. She was never fully a Voidsent being and was re-learning what it meant to have hope and be "human" again. We were shown flashbacks to her life before the 13th became the Void, how she was also an errant knight doing what she could to beat down corrupted Memoriate soldiers until ultimately being defeated because she always fought alone. She realizes that she never had to fight alone with her time spent alongside WoL. It also helped that she was already shown to be a very powerful Voidsent, so her holding her own alongside WoL makes sense. On the other side of the spectrum we had Wuk Lamat, someone with shades of a possible Lyse-like character who we do Pokemon Sun/Moon quests together to become the bestest Hokage ever, find the One Piece and maintain the rule of Narnia. For someone who wanted to be a ruler, she didn't even know her own people's cultures, traditions and whatnot and didn't really have any achievements to her name but hey, she was the first person to ask us for help so I guess we're helping. I'm beginning to think Erenville was doing us a solid by telling us we had a chance to pull out but didn't. XD It kinda also didn't help that her outlook on a lot of things was unbearably naïve, not helped by nobody in the party, the people around you, heck our WoL doesn't even disparage or give her anything to think about. All that was ever done was just to keep encouraging and enabling her. While sure, that probably would have worked in the beginning since she (I guess) figured things out for herself (I think), she massively overstayed her welcome post becoming Dawnservant. And I am still not forgiving the fact she butted in the last fight. I'm just like "HOW".
Yeah that last part felt bizarre. I could have bought it if it wasn't just her, like I don't know, maybe the rest of the people at the gate they said they would go get if something went wrong?
To me its not just the story telling but also the story itself. Like its a bog standard shounen story... except it feels like it was made for people with low iq so they couldnt go further than "friendship yes yes"
Zero going “what is this….friendship?“ and tilting her hat down in almost every scene shes in for four patches and also Wuk Lamat going “I understand now the importance of different cultures” and how much she loves her papa and the love for her people over and over again was crazy. Like wtf is this writing? Its such a broken record that it becomes not only predictable, but actually painful when they say/do the same thing again and again. Made me feel like i was taking crazy pills stuck in a time loop! I spent 6.2 - 7.0 going “Lemme guess. Shes gonna tilt her hat down- yep. There it is. Lemme guess. Shes gonna talk about the importance of understanding cultures again- yep there it is.”
Both of them suffer from character development speed runs too, in which they *technically* have arcs but occur too quickly or with too little buildup to make it believable. It would’ve been cool if Zero had to slowly re-learn how to trust people, and maybe still retains some voidsent mentality about getting payment yet always insisting on repaying a favor with a favor, etc.
@@ridleyroid9060 I think the major difference is we don't generally look at patch MSQ as needing to be amazingly good writing. It's a bridge between stories. So while Zero was kind of a mid-character, she wasn't terrible as her story was over rather quickly. Wuk Lamat was an entire expansion, and unless the writers are smacked on the wrist, likely will be around for a long while after.
@@WalkerRileyMC I'd agree with you, if 3.X, 4.X, and 5.X didn't exist. Those were all great patch stories so idk where you get the idea that people don't hold the patches up to as high a bar as the X.0 MSQ stories
@@WalkerRileyMC There is a difference between "not amazing' and "insultingly bad", I dont understand why you wouldn't want the post patch to at least be good. I don't care whether it is in post patch MSQ or .0 MSQ, bad writing is bad writing and the issues people ignored in 6.X came into 7.0 with full gusto. Granted 7.0 was probl'y written far before 6.X was done so you couldn't really do much but I really feel like people in the FF14 community constantly try to look for excuses and cop outs instead of just tackling what is It's always "oh it's a new story" "oh it's just post patch msq" "oh it's a new writing team" "oh it's just lower stakes". We can have a discussion about what is there but for gods sakes let it be without any excuses or cope, I'm sure the writers of either MSQ wouldn't want their work to be a subject to any shoddy defense like that.
I actually liked Zero, but the main plot of the patch story was meh. I hated both Wuk Lamat and the story of Dawntrail. I would rather go back to the 13th and hang out with Zero than stay in the New World......
Love that you put out this video. I was talking to my friends about post endwalker patch MSQ before DT and how poor it was vs endwalker 6.0 and any of ShB, and was very hopeful for dawntrail being better. The post EW patch MSQ was basically a trial series stretched out with dungeons mixed in and some voice acting. Well, i think DT was even worse. I'd take zero in a HEARTBEAT over fucking wuk lamat. It went from bad to worse 😓. We critique the writing because we want better, because we love this game and when Ishikawa destroys our emotions. I want more of that!!
I would've been fine with Dawntrail being on par with any of its predecessor expansions from a story perspective, but while it did have a few rare moments, it is unfortunately below them.
Sphene, Alexandria, the dimensional fusion, all that should have been what 7.0 was about, and as we journey through the new world we learn more about the continent and its people, and also could have been the start of her character growth. By the end of 7.0 it's hinted that the succession would be happening and that she'll need your help because she now wants to become dawnservant. 7.1-7.5 should have been the contest, now that the world building was completed.
I didn't mind Zero as a character, but, at least to me, she, Estinien, and Y'shtola together - the 3 most stoic characters - gave for a REALLY "meh" vibe. If the npcs themselves were seemingly not invested in the story, why should I.
Y'shtola was EXTREMELY invested, going so far as to invent a way to send aether through the Source, 1st and to the 13th. Not to mention building a Atomos to keep the Portal in check. If that's not enough investment for you for at least Y'shtola then idk what to say. Rescuing Vrtra's Sister was definitely on her mind, but you could tell she was way more interested in finding ways to do stuff between the rifts. It was more accurate to her character compared to DT where she had a chance to go through the portal but chose to stay instead to "help keep it open". Are they telling me that the other mage characters there aren't enough? I call bs, as they just wanted it to be focused on Wuk still and kept the more popular character out. Kinda like how they wanted it to be focused on Lyse for stormblood so they slashed Y'shtola to pieces so she was KO for most of the expansion, cause they know if she had the chance she'd fix a lot of the problems the NPCs had in stormblood. Sincerely, a Shtola fan who feels slighted on how theyve treated her in SB and DT.
@@Mexu-k9e Notice I said seemingly. Yeah, she was invested (...about the portals, not so much the msq plot itself) and I'm aware she was never the most expressive character like Alisaie or G'raha, but that's my point - having 3 stoic characters together made it feel like they themselves were bored.
@@kou7191 Yeah, sorry for the long rant, every time I get to I have to vent about how theyve treated her in two expansions at this point with Stormblood and now Dawntrail. She was at least active and doing stuff in Shadowbringers, EW, and a small bit of HW. Like, if they wanna write her out of the plot for a while im fine with, just have it make sense and not be blatantly obvious its to let the poster child to shine more.
I'm just wondering if the writers were just given two sheets of paper from executives that said Archfiends and FF9, but had no idea what to do with it, so we just got half-assed/rushed narratives and cheap memberberries instead.
No, oddly I doubt the executives would be the one giving ques on what to do. It sounds more as the person who got the nomination to become the head of the MSQ writing team should have never been the head of the writing team. He only got it because he was more senior than any of the other writers (because of JP culture of Senpai-Kohai company dynamics). As such their skill is on the level of a average 15 year old writing fan fictions.
Both are blank slates and are the main characters of their stories, with us just along for the ride, but here's the difference: Zero was a character that is largely set in her ways and through the WoL learns to trust others. Hell, you could argue that we are sort of her mentor figure as we show her around and defeat challenge after challenge with her. Whereas Wuk Lamat begins and ends the story the exact same way. As a naive, adventorus bean who can do no wrong. And we're just there to be her cheerleader. One has an organic arc, the other borders on a mary sue who gets way more screentime than she honestly should
Since the moment Zero was introduced, the games MSQ felt like some weird kids show. With Zero we went to infinity and beyond to beat up some Zurg like villain and in Dawntrail we're following Cailou around and get bothered by Two-headed Disney Pete on our way.
You said it perfectly about how 'inorganic' characters response or the setting are. Like when they show us the burned forest I immedietely thought "how the hell are the forest not all grown back yet? Is this just for showing how war is 'bad'..?" If they shown us an overgrown area with a "sign" of battle long ago I would have been perfectly okay with it. Hard to take the story seriously when evrrything feels so ingenuine...
I don't like Zero, hate is a strong word but I do not like her. She is such a nothing burger character for me, her entire moody edgelord thing is an aesthetic like JM said and really when your entire character is an aesthetic with a pretense of an arc that is mostly tell don't show...well I will have an issue with it. And she is mostly tell don't show, she tells us she wants compensation for stuff, but then she takes the most nonsensical mundane stuff to still come out doing the right thing. Even her "not trusting others" really gets her in trouble once, when she is promply saved (the solo instance in 5.3). It's not a repeating issue that her attitude gets her in, it's not a true character flaw. Granted it's more than Wuk Lamat gets, so Zero is still better to be fair.
@ridleyroid9060 I'm pretty sure what you point out about zero is intentional. She's kind of a tsundere. She was always a good person trying to do the right thing, it's shown by the flashbacks. She's just become convinced that she must act a certain way because the world is a certain way. Hence the, I'll only act for compensation because that's how voidesent operate,and I'm just a voidsent now because that's how the world is now. But her naming mundane things as compensation just shows it's a formality,and it's clear how she actually feels
@@samoth5161 I understand this, she was modeled of Vampire Hunter D but this makes me incredibly un invested in her arc because she is always gonna save the day and look cool for it. Her reconnecting to her human side and learning to trust others again is valid but it is also I feel ham fisted and just repetitive. Her scene with Jullus is her best scene by far, the only one I enjoyed (tbh. That scene alone blows anything in DT out of the water tbh. Even scenes I like in DT like Cahciuas farewell), but so many other scenes of hers are her just sulking by the wayside, grabbing her hat, pretending she cares about compensation while going "fwen? Iz dis fwen? :o". Also her casually trying to fuck with light on the 1st only to be followed by some of the most stilted unnatural dialogue Ive ever heard in this game infuriated me. At some point it feels like she is trying to be in character rather than just being a character if that makes sense, just a lot of yapping. Her wanting to handle stuff by herself does backfire exactly once in the 5.3 solo instance, arguably that is enough to enforce that as a character flaw she has to work on but I do not recall her being pissy she got help there or being cocky. She thought she could handle it on her own, couldnt, got helped, learned from it, moved on. I still enjoy her more than Wuk Lamat, but I do think both characters were mishandled. But Zero is going to be a major part of a future expansion more than likely whilist Wuk will more than likely (I truly hope at least) fade into a background role as the leader of her nation (like Lyse in Stb or Aymeric in HW).
One major difference between the two is that Zero failed, even though she tried her best. Her convictions were shattered, her world lost. Where as Wuk Lamat's beliefs aren't ever actually put to the test, until the very end. And even there, everything just 'falls into place'. Or we're told to 'just wait, and someone will find a solution'. Which takes away a lot of credential fom her supposed character growth.
There shouldn't be a character front and center through a whole expansion that isn't the WoL and/or the Scions (or even just one of the Scions) imo. In here not only did they put a new character front and center taking all the spotlight, but it also wasn't a that good of a character that was worth doing that for. She wasn't the only thing that ruined Dawntrail MSQ for me, but was definitely one of the main things.
I'm with you on Zero, I like her character and wish her intro had been paced a little better, but I can forgive that for two reasons. One, I felt WAY more involved in Zero's growth and two, I also agree this was a lot of set up so we can get right into something meatier when we're ready for her to come back into the story. I ALSO agree with you that they set Wuk Lamat up for failure, because she's focused on SO HARD the entire time that all the shaky writing's sins get pushed onto her, specifically. I wonder if they had spread the focus out to more of the other new characters, if it would've gone over better overall, because then there wouldn't be a lightning rod for hate? Dunno.
I feel like Post Endwalker and Dawntrail had a similar problem. Where things just kept getting repeated over and over again combined with bad pacing. I did most of the EW patches back to back, and it felt like I was retreading the same ground over and over again. Where Zero kept learning something, and then relearning it like it never happened before. Not helping was how the story kept hitting a climactic point only to stop immediately. Like the story kept edging me over and over before I was just getting sick of it. And Dawntrail and Wuk Lamat. There’s so much I could say that I’ve already said, so I’ll be brief. She has way too much of an overbearing presence in the story. Literally to much dialogue from her alone, 7000 vs everyone else’s 1000-3000, and just being involved either directly or indirectly in literally 99/100 of the MSQs quests. She needed less screen time that should have been given to everyone else. Combined with how every single zone and quest in the game can be paraphrased as ‘Wow what’s your culture light. talk to three people, talk to Wuk Lamat. Wow your culture is very interesting. Repeat until credits’. It got so repetitive, so fast. And this is coming from someone that eats up lore like chips. And that’s before factoring in the overall writing quality. There’s such a massive difference in how things are written comparing ShB to DT it’s insane. It’s like comparing Lord of the Rings to a bad Saturday morning cartoon show
Honestly, I love 'em both. I do think the writing was stronger for Zero's arc than Wuk Lamat's, but given how much other stuff Dawntrail was doing at the same time (world building, graphic updates, you name it) it didn't bother me. But in terms of being a pure and adorable cinnamon roll, I loved WL immediately and still do.
The thing about Wuk is that she isn't the sole Dawnservent. SE could easily do what they did in the latter half of the MSQ and just leave Koana behind to tend to Tuliyollal while she swans off with the WoL (..yay). I don't think SE is done foisting them upon us. Ofc course, some won't mind that, but personally I'm exhausted dealing with them. Hoping it'll get better of course but we'll see.
I find myself drawn to Zero's character over Wuk Lamat. Zero's capacity for adaptation and self-sufficiency is impressive, particularly in how she explores her environment and develops personal tastes, like her preference for spicy food. On the other hand, Wuk Lamat’s naivety seems implausible for someone in her twenties, raising questions about her sheltered existence and lack of meaningful action within her people. Her abrupt transition to a more astute persona upon reaching Solution Nine feels disjointed from her initial depiction.
11:25 There is one thing from 6.55 worth talking about. They seemed to imply that Wuk had some kind of hesitation issue when fighting, which was summarily dropped. Which, to be honest, is a common problem for Wuk Lamat where she has a weakness for a bit that gets summarily dropped. Regarding Zero and Lamat: I like Zero more, but the complete leaving off of the post-Job quest questline from Shadowbringer which tied heavily into the First seemed like a massive misstep to me. But then, like you said, the whole storyline with Zero could still be developed further and that problem could be fixed. I was bored for most of Dawntrail, but despite that I don't really hate Wuk Lamat. I just think she was over-used and didn't have a very clear development arc (like was the problem her fighting like in 6.55? Was it her various fears of things that seemed to get dropped at random? Was it her short-lived ignorance? Some of it gets developed but a lot of it is just left aside. This makes her seem like she's being changed not by events but because the plot requires it.) Using her less would have lessened much of this problem. She could have been the anchor character for maybe one or two zones and the rest could have been Krile, Erenville, and maybe Koana to bring some variety. Even one or two of the other Scions would have been very helpful.
Zero is easily one of my favourite characters FFXIV has introduced in recent years, I especially loved her character arc of going from a stoic and emotionless lone wolf to a noble and compassionate hero as she regained her humanity was really cool to see. I also enjoyed the Void MSQ quests (probably more so than Dawntrail and even the second half of Endwalker if I'm being honest) Wuk Lamat on the other hand was easily the most grating and annoying character I've dealt with in this game yet and I was so glad to be done with her once I finished the MSQ.
I feel like the story would have gone a bit better, if the writers didn't have to wrap up the whole thing at once. Imagine if they took the time to really flesh out krille's story, put the wol and even wuk on the opposite team for a challenge so that you can get a different perspective, and by the light of the crystal let it feel like a competition. All culminating in the dawnservant fight cut scenes, and the introduction of the war and sphene. Yes it breaks the cycle, but i betcha there would be less complaints about the story.
I don't know why people have been ragging on Zero recently. I thought she was a great character and loads of fun. I grew emotionally attached to her, and had a lot of little fuzzy feeling moments at seeing her learn how to be a person again after having spent so long as a voidsent. I was happy seeing her blossom into someone who began to enjoy association with others merely for the sake of those interactions, not just because there was something of tangible value to be gained, and oh gods, her awakening to the pleasures of hot food. XD Zero is a character I would happily spend more time with in the future, especially to see how she had further grown and changed, and seeing more life come back into her.
You know, it's kind of ironic that you say "I kind of doubt that she'd be running around with the Warrior of Light" because as Erenville invites you and YOU specifically to travel with him in the future, Wuk Lamat butts in and says "That sounds like fun! If you ever need company, I'll come running." After also saying that she left Koana to tend to both their duties as Dawnservant. She would TOTALLY shirk her responsibilities as Dawnservant to gallivant some more with you. Those final lines before the story ends and the MSQ banner is changed to "To be Continued" is proof of that.
I think I may have figured out why the writing feels off. The new lead (who also wrote the Werlyt storyline) is from a theatre background and while that style of writing works well in FF1-6 (because the limitations in presentation paired well with exaggerated characters, asides, and general abstraction) it usually doesn’t work as well with more modern games. Like, I wasn’t a big fan of the humor in DT, but I can certainly see it working on the stage. Same with the more one note characters, the quick/convenient resolutions to conflicts, and even Smile. Now this doesn’t make DT good (in my opinion) but it’s at least another lens through which to view the story.
For me the thing that made Zero more bearable (not that I strongly disliked her character or anything) are the warriors of light from the 1st. Sounds weird, I'm sure but that's exactly how I thought of her story in the post-endwalker quests. To me it was exactly like the warriors of darkness were during heavensward, clearly setting up something later albeit in a lengthier fashion. Zero, also didn't feel like she ate up as much attention during that questline either. We still had the Vytra, as well as, other things being discovered about the 13th and the antagonists. I got tired of Wuk Lamat after completing both of the initial zones. Zarool Ja barely has any story around him in the early going. Wuk's seemingly sudden power jump in what seems like a very short period of time, especially after we're told that pure strength in combat wasn't supposed to be her thing (until it was). And Krile got done dirty. Krile should of been the Hien of this story. Literally can't believe how little she did throughout this expac.
I just had the random realization that it would have been so much better if only Wuk Lamat was there to witness her father's death, regret not stepping in, then when we get 1v1'd with Sphene her breaking in to help would hold weight.
I liked Zero. It honestly felt like we were actually kind of mentoring Zero throughout the expansion patches. It felt like this was what they wanted to do with Wuk and DT, but it just fell flat. I don't think Wuk is a bad character, but just a victim of bad execution.
Zero was cool but the Thirteenth needed its own expansion just like the First, in my opinion. Going back there and resolving the problems within a patch (without even bringing back Gaia on top of it) makes the whole thing feel like a speed bump on the way to DT.
I think the fact that Zero's story was spread out over such along period of IRL time made it easier to accept their character development. Wuk Lamat feels bad at times because she's so rushed. They wanted to capture that same character progression that Zero went through in a single expansion, but digesting that expansion as we all do (as quickly as possible, usually) makes it feel really bad by comparison. So yeah, I basically agree with you. It's the same kind of story, but we didn't have IRL timing to space it out and make it feel more natural for Wuk Lamat. It's a lot easier to buy that a character has grown when you have to wait literal months for the next part of their story. I suspect that playing the 6.X patches back to back will feel similarly rushed to newer players since they won't have to wait in between. Honestly, this might be a bit of an answer as to why some expac patches feel weird in retrospect. Maybe the Crystal Braves arc would have felt less weird to me if I had been forced to wait for patches to get story updates. Genuinely good analysis! +1 sub ETA: Finishing the video now, you're saying basically same thing lmao. I should have just kept watching. (:
Zero had linear character development which naturally developed and it was surrounding the void, something we interacted with since arr. we had a connection to the content. this felt good, bringing in the 1st also made this contect feel alive. i must admit, that due to my depression, i did not do the post EW patches till about a month before DT, so the story just flowed well for me DT felt stale till after the ascension to the throne. only once we had a familiar threat, did the story begin to feel alive. one thing that DT copied from ShB and failed it its execution, was the early split. with the twins it made sense as each are their own person with their own path. be it with the hanu hanu or the pelu pelu, wuk lamat made one step forward, we had to go to the other area and she made two steps back, and she was where we started when we went to the third area. her repetitive story made it just feel... poorly writen compared to what we got before. erenvill was way more important as a quide to the story than wuk lamat was. the only good thing she ever did in my eyes, was sharing with koana. togehter they make a well writen character... hell i would have loved to see koana and wuklamat together say to zarul ja that their father did not want him to be alone when he passed, so he adopted siblings. THAT would have been the best send off and actually a good reason for even having wuk lamat with us. (her constant "sphene" shouting went on my nerves and the final fight felt worse when she appeared.)
I liked Zero and her story. I just didn't like how they put in patches. Wuk Lamat for is me is meh okay. She has a likeable base character but I feel her story was poorly done. Pacing definitely hurt both more with Wuk Lamat though.
The criticism of Zero; specifically the speed of Post-EW will get smaller over time. As it exclusive to people who did that story prior to patch 6.55. Though honestly not fair to criticize Wuk Lamat to Zero. Post-EW has the Scions playing an active role. Golbez and the Four Fiends makes things more interesting by the power of nostalgia. I thought I was okay with Wuk Lamat but when I consider she could be returning for 10 years, I am filled with dread.
Wuk Lamat is to Naruto whereas Zero is to Sasuke. my thing with the expansion is it was suppose to set up a new over arching story like hyde x zodi but it seems shadowbringers with the lines from the death of emet selch is going to be the new storylines rather than an overarching story.
The fact so many think Wuk is the main char shows how bad people are at recognizing meta narrative. It's called dawntrail the main char is Azem the role our character resolved to take up the second we walked through that portal. Dawn = Azem. Tell me have you ever stopped to think the Azem symbol is a sun orbited by two objects and there's two dawn servants?
Zero being absolutely clueless made a lot of sense considering she spent countless millennia as a voidsent and is only just getting reacquainted with what it means to live as a person. It bears repeating that Wuk Lamat was the crown princess of a multicultural and diverse nation and barely knows anything about the people, in spite of the established fact from *her own words* that she did interact with these people in the past (like visiting the hanuhanu for their festival but doesn't even know their greeting? Really now) or her very reason to want to be the Dawnservant being very superficial and shallow; You want everyone's happiness? What if what made someone happy was to make others miserable?
The pacing of the patch content was unpleasant and that seemed to be a side effect of it essentially being the trial series stretched out to fill 5 patches. The over all story was good but it didn't really have cliffhangers. They ended two segments with Y'Shtola needs to go to the library to find books that someone wrote in spite of the fact that no one knows how to do what we're trying". Someone who comes in late and experiences the 6.1 - .5 storyline all in one go without the breaks will probably have a much better impression. As far as the content, I enjoyed it and I liked Zero. I will say, though, that even as a huge fan of FF4, I was ready to move to another setting by the end.
@@cheesemuffin8129 You think you'd fare any better in a void world where everyone is miserable, if you die you don't truly die and are just brought back, you can't trust anyone otherwise you get used/absorbed and where power is the only thing that matters because if you're weak you're enslaved... For thousands of years? It becomes all you know, and you forget everything you once enjoyed and took for granted. You forget what it's like to trust people. You forget friendship was ever a thing. You forget what it's like to taste food, hell, you forget what it's like to have feelings in the first place because there isn't room for any. There is no good or bad anymore, just survival. At that point, you'd lead a life where it's absorb or be absorbed. No one does anything for free, it's always a trade. A favor for a favor. An item for an item. You can't even be content that you survived through a day, there is no day. Or night. Just endless void with shards from the old world you don't remember anything about. There is no victory anywhere. The only thing you have left is your own sense of self. An existence like this for thousands of years is bound to make anyone numb from the sheer misery of it. "Friends are good" is only a silly and obvious realization to us because we've not had those experiences. If you take into account what Zero has been through, the fact that she's willing to even try to engage in things like trust and friendship again is a miracle. Is it so hard to try to see things from the perspective of the character rather than just dismiss it and call it dumb just because you personally cannot relate? Of course it's going to take a long time for these kind of realizations to come through, because otherwise there is no character progression. The slow, gradual growth IS the point. Imagine how stupid it would've been that if one of the character said "friends are good" and she immediately renounces all precautions and just believes us. It would be infantile at best. Trust issues are not so easily mended. I know this because I, myself, had to deal with overcoming them. It took years for me to do as she did. The game portrays this process very well in my opinion. I'm sure it's been done better elsewhere, but I was personally very impressed with it, and I find it a disservice to say that the writing is dumb simply because it didn't happen fast. Furthermore it wasn't even just about "friends being good". Zero's whole point is that she forgets what it's like to be human, and gradually relearns it over the course of the story with our help and she repays the favor by helping us. It was very touching to me.
I played all the EW patches at once, and I thought the patches were okay. I liked Zero and there good moments, but it really didn't do the high moments very well imo. It felt really anticlimatic. I liked it than DT though which I didn't think had very many good moments or enjoyable sections at all.
I did all of the endwalker patch story in one sitting and loved zero thought she was great wuk I liked for a bit then hit 95 was happy to see her go ... But she came back then I loved the story in Alexandria with her just being that one friend who no one really likes but won't leave them at the end queen gets rid of her finally I was free then poof she's back and at this point I hated her became that person that you hear is going to thanksgiving that makes you decide to stay home and eat cereal alone just so you don't have to see there stupid face I have a feeling the patch quests will be wuk going to the void playing that annoying song saying friendship and poof void fixed
Zero is fine, but I couldn't bring myself to care about her. You said it yourself, the pacing wasn't on point. The void has a lot of potential for plot points and lore, but the patch msq was so god damn slow and predictable I started scrolling on my phone during cutscenes without realizing it. I don't like the argument that some people keep bringing up, about it being good because its setup for future expansion, juste like the warriors of darkness in Heavensward. First off, that arc was way shorter. Also, a story should be judged on its own merits, not in retrospect with follow up stories. A story can be set up for later AND interesting at the same time.
Zero was an infinitely better character than Wuk Lamat. And we are 100% going to get a void expansion. And I'm hoping we bring Unukalhai and Cyella along for the ride.
Nailed it with your "x.3" theory; climax in .3 followed by prelude to next expansion. I lost all interest in FFXIV after 6.4. Didn't even play 6.5 and no interest in Dawntrail... my interest.... trailed off due to filler post-Endwalker content
I honestly thought that Wuk Lamat was going ti be the opposite of Zero. In that she isn't particularly talented or special, but that she'd be great at bringing out the best in *others* through just being a, attentive sweet person. A true underdog (cat) that discovers what she's actually good at over what is traditionally expected, as the exoansion goes on and overcomes her insecurity that way. Instead she begins and ends the story more or less the same. What an absolute waste of a potentially great character
Zero was a side character that becomes a main character of her own story. We found a way into the void, to search for the long lost sister dragon. She was an anomaly within the Void that could be reasoned with, who over thousands of years after the shard became void lost all emotions and desires except to feed. Which we help restore over time and she doesn't lose that awkwardness of needing to trade in either and such. Wuk Lamat was just boring, she acted like a side character with the dumbass goofs of uwu I get seasick, uwu I'm not good enough uwu. Like real 80's mascot character energy which is gross. How the Rite of Succession resolved should have caused a massive civil war, MOST OF THE POPULACE wanted the first or second promise to win, where are these people? You don't just switch your views and opinions on the fly like that, they should be pissed that the First got disqualified. And the Sphene stuff was just a mess of contradictions and really puts problems on the story if you have a device that can revive you and mess with your memories. And after all of that, what the fuck is Wuk Lamat even going to do as a Dawn Servant? Just be a seat warmer? Do literally nothing be hold the status quo? Like why was there not a scene where they bring citizens seeking guidance and resolutions to their problems? Nah House Cat just wants a big seat to nap in.
Extra super nitpicky: it's pronounced seh-sil. I know I know...both ways are correct but in the case of FF4, it is seh-sil. It doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things, just a bit of triva.
Zero was a miles better character than Wuk Lamat - I’m nearly finished with the MSQ and I swear the power of friendship has gotten old with this expansion also I know they said of WoL was going to take a bit of a backseat but honestly why are we even their lol 😂 and I thought this story was going to be all about Krile but she’s been in it for about 5mins! I know it’s the start of a new arc but the main story has been solid if not spectacular (the dungeons, bosses etc have been designed well though).
I'll be honest with you, I don't like either of these characters, even Zero, and it has nothing to do with her being edgy and moody, I am edgy and moody myself, I am a withdrawn introvert who doesn't really "get" people. It's her writing and how spineless it was. She is supposedly this voidsent who will not help anyone unless she is compensated...but this never has her not doing the right thing. She never lets some serious crime occur because she isn't compensated, we never see her actually be a flawed character, she always feigns like "oh man, but im not compensated" and is like "you know that nice thing you said about me in passing like ten days ago about how nice my hat is? Well ok, I guess that's payment enough for me to save your entire city and also the universe ig". It's very tell don't show storytelling with her, everything we see about Zero is just dialogue pretending she has an arc, but in reality she starts of as a virtous edgelord and ends up as a virtuous non-edgelord, it's really an aesthetics change. She isn't the main issue of post patch writing, the post patch writing of EW was atrocious and a major insult to intelligence uncharacteristic of FF (especially coming off such a strong main MSQ patpch like 6.0). Wuk Lamat is in a similar boat, in that she NEVER suffers reprocussions for her supposed flaws. She is supposedly sheltered and ignorant of her people (somehow...despite it being a peaceful continent that is diverse in cultures, but let's suspend disbelief for a moment) but every suggestion to every problem she proposes ends up being correct. She gets all the trades correctly in Urqo, she conveniently gets the festival right (that the Hanu have...forgotten...despite being their main tradition? I won't beat a dead horse people rag on this with full right). She is never wrong, she just grows more confident in herself. The writers are just afraid of making these people flawed in any way. This would be like if Estiniens arc went from being lukewarm to dragons to loving dragons instead of being a bigoted dragon killer who hated their huts and later learned about their plight and changed as a person due to Iceheart. Even when Wuk DEMONSTRABLY Fails to protect Tuliyoyal, she holds one little speech and...they're all fine with it? Why did the racist giants not attempt a coup when Tuliyoyal was weak? Why did rebel factions not form? Why did everything not go into absolute chaos!? Because they needed to wrap this story by 7.0..that's why. This patch should have ended with the rite of succession, not alexandria. We should have had like 7.3 be the attack on tuliyoyal, and have 8.0 take us to alexandrias reflection. This is all very rushed and so any nuanced elements that could have improved the story just completely get overloked. It is really sad.
I agree with parts of this, but if the rite ended up lasting ALL of 7.0 I likely would've just started skipping cutscenes, and I was already tempted by the end of it as it currently exists. The rite story was mind-numbingly slow and felt like nothing in it actually mattered beyond Vali (which wasn't even part of the original plan for the characters)
@@Draco-9158 True, if it was like what we got but longer it would have been boring, but it doesn't have to be that way. It could have been better and actually explored societal issues and conundrums that Wuk was truly oblivious to and had to overcome to become dawnservant. It could have been an actual competition, with all 4 contestants (or at least the 3 promises) actually all having a legitimate claim and good points. As it stands Koana and Wuk becoming dawnservant was a foregone conclusion, whilist Zoraal and Bakool were obviously bad and evil. I believe the reason we got the 1st half as we did was because they rushed the shit out of the rite to just get Wuk on the throne so that they can focus on Alexandria instead.
@@ridleyroid9060 this is actually so laughably wrong its embarrassing. We've seen Zero's flaws plenty of times. In her introduction she literally says fk off I'm not helping unless you give me something. Y'shtola had to pay aether. Then Vrtra. You even see glimpses into the past how her flaws detrimental to her. You talk about intelligence and intellectual writing when you clearly lack it and the only atrocious thing here is your lack of critical thinking
Zero isn't thrown in your face for 95% of the msq and isn't the main focus for every single scene she's in. Also she isn't a big whiny naive womanchild with Naruto's mindset. I still can understand why people don't like Zero but she's objectively not as obnoxious as Wuk.
It's such a shame that we have another 10yrs saga starting off with a slog of a story. I'm imagining in the future they will give the option to skip story until DT to start with the new saga for new players and it's SUCH a bad look to have DT as the starting point for new people. It's the ARR situation but way worse in my opinion, at least for ARR, you can attribute it to being so old and being scrapped together asap for the rerelease of the game. DT story is way worse and it has no excuses. You'd think they would know the importance of a good first expansion as an introduction for new players but i guess they didn't learn anything from ARR. 🤷♂️
They REALLY need to replace that "new" writer, it's obvious she can't write anything beyond recycled shounen garbage. She had her chance and she royally screwed it up, just find someone that can actually write this time, please.
Yeah in the moment they def aren't my favs either (tho I love the subject matter with Zero's and the 13th) I think it laid a lot of groundwork that can pay off in the future
@JMulls I agree with you, because it is good story but the pacing and how it was told for both parts felt a bit off. To me the post-endwalker msq was really supported by the nostalgic FFIV themes but Dawntrail introducing an original story by itself, did not have that foundation to support it. But as we remain optimistic, dawntrail still has post-msq to build on that.
@@kkurston technically dawntrail's second part relied heavily on FFIX themes, but it was often overshadowed by wuk lamats constant yapping about peace and understanding.
Zero is better than Wuk Lamat, but she is just another bland edge lord with a tragic backstory. She isn't exactly a stellar character like Emet-Selch was so...yeah.
I agree with the sentiment that pacing was an issue post EW. But zero is just a garbage character. They are, amazingly enough, an amalgamation of two of the greatest character writing sins: they're a mary sue (although not the most egregious of them), and they're not interesting. On the first count, she is the key to defeating Golbez and Zeromus. So much so it is implied that zeromus is unkillable without the ability Zero has. This makes us, the WoL and god slaying extraordinaire, pretty much useless. So a storyline that has revolved around us is finished off by some rando we meet who just happens to have the ability to beat the baddie. An everyone that meets zero just warmsup to them no questions asked. More so, she isnt even edgy. She's just 'there'. The writer conflate being a wooden plank with being nihilistic and disconnected. Every other void character has some level of personality, where she is just kind of indifferent to mostly everything until she just starts being like "oh this is emotion? How novel." Then she decides to be a hero and saves the day. Wuk, by all accounts, isnt much better tobe frank. But im hoping that we never meet zero again, or atlear in an incredibly limited capacity.
i like zero and detest wuk lamat Zero to me what i liked was the entire learn her everything again becuse its been...who knows how long since she did any of it and how alien it is to her Wuk is just a furry naruto that has a stronger talk no jutsu and i cant get that picture out of my head since i also dont really like naruto himself
The fact that we're comparing one of the best side characters to the absolute worst is embarrassing and is reflective of ignoring your channel from here on out
all you peoplw hating now will end up like the DRAGON BALL GT fans when GT was new. keep the hating up👍🏼sorry this wasnt no emit type of character but this expansion wasn’t advertised to be the greatest off rip nor was the story line suppose to be world wide calamity threatening like we are use to. you peoples dopamine receptors are so off their rockers yall cant even enjoy smaller scale adventures and so on. sure wuks screentime could be cut shorter but thats exactly how GT fans were with PAN and Kid Goku.
When it comes Wuk vs Zero. Although Zero
was the main character of the endwalker patch content, but i feel she never replaced the WoL, you were not just some cardboard cutout experiencing the story, the WoL is actively playing a true mentor role as they show Zero around.
I'm kicking myself rn because I completely forgot to bring that up because i 100% agree.
That's a factor for sure, but the point of Dawntrail was that we're **not** the main character this time. We're basically the strongest person in the known universe, so when YoshiP said this was a "summer vacation" he was serious. We're taking a backseat because, let's be honest, we could solve virtually any problem on the star just by threat of force.
In order to have compelling stories, they have to make us take a less active role in order to lower the stakes. Unless we come across another situation that's so large scale as to threaten the entirety of existence, we're not going to be running into any real resistance (story-wise). I think this was their attempt to try that kind of story mechanic from a certain angle, it just didn't land really well because the character progression for Wuk Lamat feels kind of forced.
Also Zero has a reason to be a character level 90 and she has this power learned from her mother of the Contramamoria so she is somehow a character with a purpose and background to be a strong character and it is not even excluded that she is our soul fragment in the 13th considering the 13th was not rejoined.
Also we should not forget that zero has to be a bit peculiar, she spent thowsends of years just hounting or being hount in the enternal rebirth of the void so the story is really all about going back from a feral state to be somehow human.
@@The4thHorsemanIT Wait, I'm pretty sure Golbez (the original) is more likely to be our fragment. Was there something with Zero that made her more likely to be our reflection?
The deceased Golbez was very likely one of Azem's much like Ardbert was.
Azem's fragments were not necessarily the main character of previous franchise entries.
I actually really liked Zero. She goes from 'lone wolf' who 'does things her way' to someone who learns to trust other people and understand that she can't do everything by herself. I liked watching that development over time.
Meanwhile Wuk Lamat... she starts off as childish, naive, dumb, believing that peace and tacos could solve every problem (and she has seasickness because she's 'quirky' or some shit)... and she ends the MSQ the exact. same. way...
Yeah i quite like Zero as well, really excited to see her return... eventually
And the thing about Zero is that you understand _why_ she is like this. You understand Zero is a product of the 13th. She is a lone wolf who doesn't trust anyone because the 13th is a place where trusting others is a bad idea.
Wuk Lamat, on the other hand, feels like a stranger in her own land. She doesn't know jack shit about this place she is supposed to rule, and doesn't feel like she's a product of it. You do not learn about Tural through Wuk Lamat, you learn about it despite Wuk Lamat.
@@AngryTenko I agree with this take 100%.
Her story arc was a lot more organic. They didn't feel a need to throw her development in our faces, as much as let us see it unfold.
Zero was fine wuk lamat would be fine if she got her screentime cut by 60% and gave it to other charecters
TALK TO WUK LAMAT
They are both awful one-dimensional characters. Why do we need two "da powah of frwendship" characters in a row?
Yes. The EW patches were Zero's story, but they were also Vrtra's story, and Golbez' story. Wuk Lamat overwhelms everything else.
@@cheesemuffin8129 This whole game is "da powah of frwendship" LMAO
I agree Zero was fine. Her introduction, in my opinion, is learning to be human again. Learning to let others in and trusting them. She's interesting and definitely someone I am looking forward to in exploring the Thirteenth with, along with Golbez.
Wuk Lamat is Wuk Lamat. Toxicly positive and definitely some sort of primal with how she quickly converts people to fawning over them.
Zero:
- Teaches us about her land (the 13th)
- helps out in combat but never overshadows us
- good VA (nothing special but still good)
- Take tomboy goth gf on a 'fixing her' arc and succeed
- "shall we disrobe as well?"
Wuk lamat:
- has to be babysat and taught about her own nation, after claiming to have known all about it and loved it.
- never succeeds on her own merit and usually stumbles into a solution by dumb luck or getting us to do it for her.
- asspull appearance at the end in which she overshadows not just you but 7 others with no explanation as to how she's suddenly so strong.
- bad VA (and if I'm being honest, a pretty shitty person outside of that too from what I've seen)
There are huge differences in these 2 stories. The first being the post EW story isn't about Zero. She is part of the story, yes. But she isn't the driving force of it. The narrative thrust is focused on finding and rescuing Azdaja, and Zero is along for the ride as an Ally.
DT is very different. The focus is o Wuk Lamat and HER quest to become Hokage, and the Scions and the WoL are along for the ride.
Even Naruto isn't actually about becoming Hokage. The Hokage thing is more just him wanting to prove himself to the villagers who hated/ignored him before. He actually cares way more about Sasuke when they leave the village than being Hokage. Naruto doesn't even become Hokage until after his series is over.
Personally, I think Wuk Lamat's story would've benefited from the writers leaning on the concept of her being the Third Promise.
What do I mean by this? Let me explain:
Wuk Lamat is the Third Promise, and there are only three of them. You have one guy who isn't a Promise, and yet Wuk Lamat is essentially the least capable of them all-at least on the outside.
What does that make her? An underdog, and we know people love a good underdog story.
Leaning into that concept would have made it so that Wuk Lamat is more than most people give her credit for. She's not nearly as intelligent as Koana because he had the advantage of education. She's not nearly as well-versed in military tactics as Zoraal Ja, or as physically or magically strong as Bakool Ja Ja-who was physically bred through eugenics to surpass normal people.
But what Wuk Lamat has is her being an underdog. She's driven by insecurity because she's the one that people don't bet on to win. We find over the course of the journey that she's attentive, she listens, she notices and remembers details most others don't care to, and that she's been working herself to the bone to try and match her siblings, but she just lacks the confidence that they have because nobody's ever given her the chance to prove those capabilities.
In addition to all that, just like she's more than she seems, she can also identify people who look like they're being underestimated by their culture/society, never given a chance to do something great even if they're able to.
So, she gives them that chance to shine.
The course of her journey then becomes elevating those underdogs because she sees their worth, and because being looked down on is a lived experience for her. By the end of each Feat, she not only proves her own worth but the worth of those underdogs who actually had the means of helping her overcome the Feats. It could even be part of the political platform that we sorely needed her to have as the Dawnservant: to make sure that all people in all their cultures are given a fair chance to do their part, just as she was allowed to.
She's living proof that someone who is underestimated at every turn could rise to do something great or historic. It plays into what they wanted Wuk Lamat to be: the caring, understanding and compassionate leader.
At the same time, though, you had a very good point about her 'training arc'. It should have been shown as something of a necessity for her because she inevitably-and repeatedly-comes up against Bakool Ja Ja who's just physically more powerful. A training arc with the Warrior of Light could have trained her into being something of a David to Bakool Ja Ja's Goliath, since the Warrior of Light is used to fighting and overcoming threats more than twice their size.
The solo duty against Bakool Ja Ja would have probably been made more engaging by making the entirety of it using his own strength against him. Making him fall prey to his own skills, having most of his abilities be huge, HP-busting but entirely avoidable AoEs and Wuk Lamat is just wailing on him from his blindspots, etc. by being the smarter, more cautious fighter. And to better explain how she manages to defeat even Bakool Ja Ja's mooks? It's friendly fire. She leads his goons into his line of attack, and Bakool Ja Ja takes care of them for her-breaking their morale since intervening further means more casualties for them.
In that way, Wuk Lamat is still able to maintain her being a compassionate and caring person, but allow her to be elevated by the Warrior of Light from her underdog status, just like she elevated those underdogs from the cultures she would have helped as well
No joke, this is genuinely where I THOUGHT the story was going with her. Basically, while Wuk Lamat isn't particularly talented or special, she'd be great at bringing out the best in *others* through just being a sweet, attentive person that she is
The biggest difference between Zero and Wuk Lamat, IMO, is that Zero's flaws and development feel much more real. Yes, she is edgy, but the story kinda makes fun of her for it. She is awkward and socially inept. She has this strange transactional view of everything. Over time, you understand what happened to the 13th and to her that made her be like this, and she also softens up while she learns from you.
Wuk Lamat, on the other hand, learns nothing. Her demeanor and ideology do not change at all from the beginning to the end of her story. The narrative never mocks her or punishes her for her naivetè. Everything goes her way, and she learns no lessons. She feels very flat.
Team Zero here. She started as a blank slate and it was interesting seeing her learn. Wuk Lamat was a bit overbearing and really naive. She should have been further on her journey. As it was my WoL would have turned her down, if he ever had a choice. She might be ready in a few years, but wtf was she doing all this time that she knew so little about her world. It felt like filler while the Zero starts working on the Thirteen. My hope is that the reflections will be a major part of the next ten years and we get lots of different worlds and stories and that now and then they overlap.
You did a great job on this video!
Thanks caroline! While I understand the issues people have with Zero, personally I still really like the character and the stuff involving the 13th so I'm really excited to see how it all plays out, with how cool and different each of the shards have felt so far, I'm totally down for some shard hopping adventures
Ain't no way we comparing zero to wuk lamat
They are more alike than you think, mostly in that they immediately warp the personality of every character around them and are instantly loved, it's the same writer and he can't seem to shake his shonen anime OC obsession. Wuk was a worse written character and more annoying overall but they're definitely similar in that regard.
Why not? They are both so bad it hurts.
It's a fair comparison as they both suffer from the same issues in a different way. Of course I assume you like Zero, but I don't, Zero has a good design and I don't mind the idea of her story arc but she always does the right thing no matter what and takes whatever nonsense as compensation. She is rarely shown as anything but kind hearted, and is just a bit awkward until she readjusts back into society. Sure they try to posit that she is this cold hearted voidsent who will not do anything until compensated for but the issue here is that this never really is pushed to the logical extreme of her refusing to do the right thing because she wasn't paid, and later develop a true guilty conscience.
What I've always loved about FF14 is how it makes bad people who do bad things still feel human, and have people make bad choices that they have to live with. My favorite characters in 14 are flawed ones who have to live with their actions and overcome them, or go through sacrifice. Venat shatters the source into 14, bringing to it death, plague, misery, and she has to live with it as the right thing to do, as much suffering as she did cause.
I'm not asking for Zero to be as complex as Venat, a character who was technically been present since 1.0, but I truly cannot recall
Wuk has the same issue, she is always right, never wrong, she experiences no real growth, she just learns fun trivia about the peoples of tuli and is just vindicated in her ideology. She never fails and is never challenged.
@@ridleyroid9060what character in your party is not guilty of everything you said of Zero? 👀 who is out there making complex choices and displaying a "shades of grey" personality?
@@ridleyroid9060 she was shown as not being kind-hearted plenty of times. When she tells the team to leave her alone, when she demands compensation, when she chooses to reject teamwork and camaraderie, etc. There are numerous instances. Her distrust and isolationist views played a part in the current situation of the thirteenth. Like wtaf are you talking about? It clearly showed Zero's complexities and flaws and how there were serious consequences for them. You're either pretentious as fk, skipped story scenes or lack critical/comprehension skills. So embarrassing
One character has much more development with maybe a tenth of the other's screen time that tells you something
with Zero, our character had an importance in the story (like the theory about OG Golbez being a reflection of WoL, or that Durante being a shard of Zenos)
with Wuk Lamat, a rushed Krile's backstory and maaaaybe the Azem symbol on the key. in the end it was Wuk story with a lot of writing problems.
And EW patches at least had the "fanservice" to all of us ff4 players
I honestly believe the original Golbelz was our reflection in the 13th. Although we are not directly told this, there is a reason as to why we are in the perspective of Golbez when Durante talks to us. Of course, we are technically reliving Golbez’s memories from his Memoria (I think?)
OG golbez was 100% a shard of azem.
Durante being zenos I doubt though, as I'm pretty sure zenos is technically unsundered due to being a decendant of emmet-selch (don't quote me on that though as I don't think it's really brought up how that works)
Zero was a very much "fish out of water" story. She was never fully a Voidsent being and was re-learning what it meant to have hope and be "human" again. We were shown flashbacks to her life before the 13th became the Void, how she was also an errant knight doing what she could to beat down corrupted Memoriate soldiers until ultimately being defeated because she always fought alone. She realizes that she never had to fight alone with her time spent alongside WoL. It also helped that she was already shown to be a very powerful Voidsent, so her holding her own alongside WoL makes sense.
On the other side of the spectrum we had Wuk Lamat, someone with shades of a possible Lyse-like character who we do Pokemon Sun/Moon quests together to become the bestest Hokage ever, find the One Piece and maintain the rule of Narnia. For someone who wanted to be a ruler, she didn't even know her own people's cultures, traditions and whatnot and didn't really have any achievements to her name but hey, she was the first person to ask us for help so I guess we're helping. I'm beginning to think Erenville was doing us a solid by telling us we had a chance to pull out but didn't. XD
It kinda also didn't help that her outlook on a lot of things was unbearably naïve, not helped by nobody in the party, the people around you, heck our WoL doesn't even disparage or give her anything to think about. All that was ever done was just to keep encouraging and enabling her. While sure, that probably would have worked in the beginning since she (I guess) figured things out for herself (I think), she massively overstayed her welcome post becoming Dawnservant.
And I am still not forgiving the fact she butted in the last fight. I'm just like "HOW".
Yeah that last part felt bizarre. I could have bought it if it wasn't just her, like I don't know, maybe the rest of the people at the gate they said they would go get if something went wrong?
To me its not just the story telling but also the story itself. Like its a bog standard shounen story... except it feels like it was made for people with low iq so they couldnt go further than "friendship yes yes"
Don't forget the handful of "Dora the Explorer" quests where you needed to spot things on the screen.
Zero going “what is this….friendship?“ and tilting her hat down in almost every scene shes in for four patches and also Wuk Lamat going “I understand now the importance of different cultures” and how much she loves her papa and the love for her people over and over again was crazy.
Like wtf is this writing?
Its such a broken record that it becomes not only predictable, but actually painful when they say/do the same thing again and again.
Made me feel like i was taking crazy pills stuck in a time loop!
I spent 6.2 - 7.0 going
“Lemme guess. Shes gonna tilt her hat down- yep. There it is.
Lemme guess. Shes gonna talk about the importance of understanding cultures again- yep there it is.”
Both of them suffer from character development speed runs too, in which they *technically* have arcs but occur too quickly or with too little buildup to make it believable.
It would’ve been cool if Zero had to slowly re-learn how to trust people, and maybe still retains some voidsent mentality about getting payment yet always insisting on repaying a favor with a favor, etc.
Thank you, people really seem to glance over 6.X writing and say that 7.0 is so much worse than it when in reality the issues started with 6.X.
@@ridleyroid9060 I think the major difference is we don't generally look at patch MSQ as needing to be amazingly good writing. It's a bridge between stories. So while Zero was kind of a mid-character, she wasn't terrible as her story was over rather quickly.
Wuk Lamat was an entire expansion, and unless the writers are smacked on the wrist, likely will be around for a long while after.
@@WalkerRileyMC I'd agree with you, if 3.X, 4.X, and 5.X didn't exist. Those were all great patch stories so idk where you get the idea that people don't hold the patches up to as high a bar as the X.0 MSQ stories
@@WalkerRileyMC There is a difference between "not amazing' and "insultingly bad", I dont understand why you wouldn't want the post patch to at least be good.
I don't care whether it is in post patch MSQ or .0 MSQ, bad writing is bad writing and the issues people ignored in 6.X came into 7.0 with full gusto. Granted 7.0 was probl'y written far before 6.X was done so you couldn't really do much but I really feel like people in the FF14 community constantly try to look for excuses and cop outs instead of just tackling what is
It's always "oh it's a new story" "oh it's just post patch msq" "oh it's a new writing team" "oh it's just lower stakes".
We can have a discussion about what is there but for gods sakes let it be without any excuses or cope, I'm sure the writers of either MSQ wouldn't want their work to be a subject to any shoddy defense like that.
I actually liked Zero, but the main plot of the patch story was meh. I hated both Wuk Lamat and the story of Dawntrail. I would rather go back to the 13th and hang out with Zero than stay in the New World......
Same personally, the 13th is more interesting to me as well
Love that you put out this video. I was talking to my friends about post endwalker patch MSQ before DT and how poor it was vs endwalker 6.0 and any of ShB, and was very hopeful for dawntrail being better. The post EW patch MSQ was basically a trial series stretched out with dungeons mixed in and some voice acting.
Well, i think DT was even worse. I'd take zero in a HEARTBEAT over fucking wuk lamat.
It went from bad to worse 😓.
We critique the writing because we want better, because we love this game and when Ishikawa destroys our emotions. I want more of that!!
I would've been fine with Dawntrail being on par with any of its predecessor expansions from a story perspective, but while it did have a few rare moments, it is unfortunately below them.
@Dragon359 yeah pretty much 😕
Just put that alpaca hawk tua on loop.... thats how I feel about Wuk. Zero is bae.
Sphene, Alexandria, the dimensional fusion, all that should have been what 7.0 was about, and as we journey through the new world we learn more about the continent and its people, and also could have been the start of her character growth. By the end of 7.0 it's hinted that the succession would be happening and that she'll need your help because she now wants to become dawnservant. 7.1-7.5 should have been the contest, now that the world building was completed.
This completely. Would have given tike for Wuk to have grown in power and personality instead of just never end Mary Sue moments
I didn't mind Zero as a character, but, at least to me, she, Estinien, and Y'shtola together - the 3 most stoic characters - gave for a REALLY "meh" vibe. If the npcs themselves were seemingly not invested in the story, why should I.
Y'shtola was EXTREMELY invested, going so far as to invent a way to send aether through the Source, 1st and to the 13th. Not to mention building a Atomos to keep the Portal in check. If that's not enough investment for you for at least Y'shtola then idk what to say. Rescuing Vrtra's Sister was definitely on her mind, but you could tell she was way more interested in finding ways to do stuff between the rifts. It was more accurate to her character compared to DT where she had a chance to go through the portal but chose to stay instead to "help keep it open". Are they telling me that the other mage characters there aren't enough? I call bs, as they just wanted it to be focused on Wuk still and kept the more popular character out.
Kinda like how they wanted it to be focused on Lyse for stormblood so they slashed Y'shtola to pieces so she was KO for most of the expansion, cause they know if she had the chance she'd fix a lot of the problems the NPCs had in stormblood.
Sincerely, a Shtola fan who feels slighted on how theyve treated her in SB and DT.
@@Mexu-k9e Notice I said seemingly. Yeah, she was invested (...about the portals, not so much the msq plot itself) and I'm aware she was never the most expressive character like Alisaie or G'raha, but that's my point - having 3 stoic characters together made it feel like they themselves were bored.
@@kou7191 Yeah, sorry for the long rant, every time I get to I have to vent about how theyve treated her in two expansions at this point with Stormblood and now Dawntrail. She was at least active and doing stuff in Shadowbringers, EW, and a small bit of HW. Like, if they wanna write her out of the plot for a while im fine with, just have it make sense and not be blatantly obvious its to let the poster child to shine more.
I was hyped for Wuk Lamat in 6.55. Her personality was a breath of fresh air. She was loud!
... And then she never stopped being loud.
I'm just wondering if the writers were just given two sheets of paper from executives that said Archfiends and FF9, but had no idea what to do with it, so we just got half-assed/rushed narratives and cheap memberberries instead.
No, oddly I doubt the executives would be the one giving ques on what to do. It sounds more as the person who got the nomination to become the head of the MSQ writing team should have never been the head of the writing team. He only got it because he was more senior than any of the other writers (because of JP culture of Senpai-Kohai company dynamics). As such their skill is on the level of a average 15 year old writing fan fictions.
Both are blank slates and are the main characters of their stories, with us just along for the ride, but here's the difference:
Zero was a character that is largely set in her ways and through the WoL learns to trust others. Hell, you could argue that we are sort of her mentor figure as we show her around and defeat challenge after challenge with her.
Whereas Wuk Lamat begins and ends the story the exact same way. As a naive, adventorus bean who can do no wrong. And we're just there to be her cheerleader.
One has an organic arc, the other borders on a mary sue who gets way more screentime than she honestly should
Since the moment Zero was introduced, the games MSQ felt like some weird kids show.
With Zero we went to infinity and beyond to beat up some Zurg like villain and in Dawntrail we're following Cailou around and get bothered by Two-headed Disney Pete on our way.
You said it perfectly about how 'inorganic' characters response or the setting are.
Like when they show us the burned forest I immedietely thought "how the hell are the forest not all grown back yet? Is this just for showing how war is 'bad'..?"
If they shown us an overgrown area with a "sign" of battle long ago I would have been perfectly okay with it.
Hard to take the story seriously when evrrything feels so ingenuine...
i didnt even know people hated zero. i assumed she would have been a fan favourite
I don't like Zero, hate is a strong word but I do not like her. She is such a nothing burger character for me, her entire moody edgelord thing is an aesthetic like JM said and really when your entire character is an aesthetic with a pretense of an arc that is mostly tell don't show...well I will have an issue with it. And she is mostly tell don't show, she tells us she wants compensation for stuff, but then she takes the most nonsensical mundane stuff to still come out doing the right thing. Even her "not trusting others" really gets her in trouble once, when she is promply saved (the solo instance in 5.3). It's not a repeating issue that her attitude gets her in, it's not a true character flaw.
Granted it's more than Wuk Lamat gets, so Zero is still better to be fair.
@ridleyroid9060 I'm pretty sure what you point out about zero is intentional. She's kind of a tsundere. She was always a good person trying to do the right thing, it's shown by the flashbacks. She's just become convinced that she must act a certain way because the world is a certain way. Hence the, I'll only act for compensation because that's how voidesent operate,and I'm just a voidsent now because that's how the world is now. But her naming mundane things as compensation just shows it's a formality,and it's clear how she actually feels
@@samoth5161 I understand this, she was modeled of Vampire Hunter D but this makes me incredibly un invested in her arc because she is always gonna save the day and look cool for it.
Her reconnecting to her human side and learning to trust others again is valid but it is also I feel ham fisted and just repetitive. Her scene with Jullus is her best scene by far, the only one I enjoyed (tbh. That scene alone blows anything in DT out of the water tbh. Even scenes I like in DT like Cahciuas farewell), but so many other scenes of hers are her just sulking by the wayside, grabbing her hat, pretending she cares about compensation while going "fwen? Iz dis fwen? :o". Also her casually trying to fuck with light on the 1st only to be followed by some of the most stilted unnatural dialogue Ive ever heard in this game infuriated me.
At some point it feels like she is trying to be in character rather than just being a character if that makes sense, just a lot of yapping. Her wanting to handle stuff by herself does backfire exactly once in the 5.3 solo instance, arguably that is enough to enforce that as a character flaw she has to work on but I do not recall her being pissy she got help there or being cocky. She thought she could handle it on her own, couldnt, got helped, learned from it, moved on.
I still enjoy her more than Wuk Lamat, but I do think both characters were mishandled. But Zero is going to be a major part of a future expansion more than likely whilist Wuk will more than likely (I truly hope at least) fade into a background role as the leader of her nation (like Lyse in Stb or Aymeric in HW).
One major difference between the two is that Zero failed, even though she tried her best. Her convictions were shattered, her world lost. Where as Wuk Lamat's beliefs aren't ever actually put to the test, until the very end. And even there, everything just 'falls into place'. Or we're told to 'just wait, and someone will find a solution'. Which takes away a lot of credential fom her supposed character growth.
There shouldn't be a character front and center through a whole expansion that isn't the WoL and/or the Scions (or even just one of the Scions) imo. In here not only did they put a new character front and center taking all the spotlight, but it also wasn't a that good of a character that was worth doing that for. She wasn't the only thing that ruined Dawntrail MSQ for me, but was definitely one of the main things.
I'm with you on Zero, I like her character and wish her intro had been paced a little better, but I can forgive that for two reasons. One, I felt WAY more involved in Zero's growth and two, I also agree this was a lot of set up so we can get right into something meatier when we're ready for her to come back into the story.
I ALSO agree with you that they set Wuk Lamat up for failure, because she's focused on SO HARD the entire time that all the shaky writing's sins get pushed onto her, specifically. I wonder if they had spread the focus out to more of the other new characters, if it would've gone over better overall, because then there wouldn't be a lightning rod for hate? Dunno.
Spreading the focus out to other characters would fix about 40% of the expansion's issues anyway.
I actually love Zero
Same! I hope we see her again soon personally
I feel like Post Endwalker and Dawntrail had a similar problem. Where things just kept getting repeated over and over again combined with bad pacing.
I did most of the EW patches back to back, and it felt like I was retreading the same ground over and over again. Where Zero kept learning something, and then relearning it like it never happened before.
Not helping was how the story kept hitting a climactic point only to stop immediately. Like the story kept edging me over and over before I was just getting sick of it.
And Dawntrail and Wuk Lamat. There’s so much I could say that I’ve already said, so I’ll be brief.
She has way too much of an overbearing presence in the story.
Literally to much dialogue from her alone, 7000 vs everyone else’s 1000-3000, and just being involved either directly or indirectly in literally 99/100 of the MSQs quests. She needed less screen time that should have been given to everyone else. Combined with how every single zone and quest in the game can be paraphrased as ‘Wow what’s your culture light. talk to three people, talk to Wuk Lamat. Wow your culture is very interesting. Repeat until credits’. It got so repetitive, so fast. And this is coming from someone that eats up lore like chips.
And that’s before factoring in the overall writing quality. There’s such a massive difference in how things are written comparing ShB to DT it’s insane. It’s like comparing Lord of the Rings to a bad Saturday morning cartoon show
Thank you, this feels cathartic knowing Im not the only one who dislikes 6.X MSQ.
Honestly, I love 'em both. I do think the writing was stronger for Zero's arc than Wuk Lamat's, but given how much other stuff Dawntrail was doing at the same time (world building, graphic updates, you name it) it didn't bother me. But in terms of being a pure and adorable cinnamon roll, I loved WL immediately and still do.
The thing about Wuk is that she isn't the sole Dawnservent. SE could easily do what they did in the latter half of the MSQ and just leave Koana behind to tend to Tuliyollal while she swans off with the WoL (..yay). I don't think SE is done foisting them upon us. Ofc course, some won't mind that, but personally I'm exhausted dealing with them. Hoping it'll get better of course but we'll see.
Zero is polarizing?
I find myself drawn to Zero's character over Wuk Lamat. Zero's capacity for adaptation and self-sufficiency is impressive, particularly in how she explores her environment and develops personal tastes, like her preference for spicy food.
On the other hand, Wuk Lamat’s naivety seems implausible for someone in her twenties, raising questions about her sheltered existence and lack of meaningful action within her people. Her abrupt transition to a more astute persona upon reaching Solution Nine feels disjointed from her initial depiction.
11:25 There is one thing from 6.55 worth talking about. They seemed to imply that Wuk had some kind of hesitation issue when fighting, which was summarily dropped. Which, to be honest, is a common problem for Wuk Lamat where she has a weakness for a bit that gets summarily dropped.
Regarding Zero and Lamat: I like Zero more, but the complete leaving off of the post-Job quest questline from Shadowbringer which tied heavily into the First seemed like a massive misstep to me. But then, like you said, the whole storyline with Zero could still be developed further and that problem could be fixed.
I was bored for most of Dawntrail, but despite that I don't really hate Wuk Lamat. I just think she was over-used and didn't have a very clear development arc (like was the problem her fighting like in 6.55? Was it her various fears of things that seemed to get dropped at random? Was it her short-lived ignorance? Some of it gets developed but a lot of it is just left aside. This makes her seem like she's being changed not by events but because the plot requires it.) Using her less would have lessened much of this problem. She could have been the anchor character for maybe one or two zones and the rest could have been Krile, Erenville, and maybe Koana to bring some variety. Even one or two of the other Scions would have been very helpful.
Zero is easily one of my favourite characters FFXIV has introduced in recent years, I especially loved her character arc of going from a stoic and emotionless lone wolf to a noble and compassionate hero as she regained her humanity was really cool to see. I also enjoyed the Void MSQ quests (probably more so than Dawntrail and even the second half of Endwalker if I'm being honest)
Wuk Lamat on the other hand was easily the most grating and annoying character I've dealt with in this game yet and I was so glad to be done with her once I finished the MSQ.
I feel like the story would have gone a bit better, if the writers didn't have to wrap up the whole thing at once. Imagine if they took the time to really flesh out krille's story, put the wol and even wuk on the opposite team for a challenge so that you can get a different perspective, and by the light of the crystal let it feel like a competition. All culminating in the dawnservant fight cut scenes, and the introduction of the war and sphene. Yes it breaks the cycle, but i betcha there would be less complaints about the story.
I don't know why people have been ragging on Zero recently. I thought she was a great character and loads of fun.
I grew emotionally attached to her, and had a lot of little fuzzy feeling moments at seeing her learn how to be a person again after having spent so long as a voidsent. I was happy seeing her blossom into someone who began to enjoy association with others merely for the sake of those interactions, not just because there was something of tangible value to be gained, and oh gods, her awakening to the pleasures of hot food. XD
Zero is a character I would happily spend more time with in the future, especially to see how she had further grown and changed, and seeing more life come back into her.
You know, it's kind of ironic that you say "I kind of doubt that she'd be running around with the Warrior of Light" because as Erenville invites you and YOU specifically to travel with him in the future, Wuk Lamat butts in and says "That sounds like fun! If you ever need company, I'll come running." After also saying that she left Koana to tend to both their duties as Dawnservant. She would TOTALLY shirk her responsibilities as Dawnservant to gallivant some more with you. Those final lines before the story ends and the MSQ banner is changed to "To be Continued" is proof of that.
All the MSQs say To Be Continued when you read the end.
Please god no.
@@yanipheonu EW said "Fin", technically.
I think I may have figured out why the writing feels off. The new lead (who also wrote the Werlyt storyline) is from a theatre background and while that style of writing works well in FF1-6 (because the limitations in presentation paired well with exaggerated characters, asides, and general abstraction) it usually doesn’t work as well with more modern games.
Like, I wasn’t a big fan of the humor in DT, but I can certainly see it working on the stage. Same with the more one note characters, the quick/convenient resolutions to conflicts, and even Smile.
Now this doesn’t make DT good (in my opinion) but it’s at least another lens through which to view the story.
Why does your WoL look like the Light Heavyweight Champion!?
LOL
I think Zero's model actually uses the F-Hrothgar body shape. I always thought she looked kind of odd for a Hyur.
Nah Viera
For me the thing that made Zero more bearable (not that I strongly disliked her character or anything) are the warriors of light from the 1st. Sounds weird, I'm sure but that's exactly how I thought of her story in the post-endwalker quests. To me it was exactly like the warriors of darkness were during heavensward, clearly setting up something later albeit in a lengthier fashion. Zero, also didn't feel like she ate up as much attention during that questline either. We still had the Vytra, as well as, other things being discovered about the 13th and the antagonists.
I got tired of Wuk Lamat after completing both of the initial zones. Zarool Ja barely has any story around him in the early going. Wuk's seemingly sudden power jump in what seems like a very short period of time, especially after we're told that pure strength in combat wasn't supposed to be her thing (until it was). And Krile got done dirty. Krile should of been the Hien of this story. Literally can't believe how little she did throughout this expac.
I just had the random realization that it would have been so much better if only Wuk Lamat was there to witness her father's death, regret not stepping in, then when we get 1v1'd with Sphene her breaking in to help would hold weight.
I liked Zero. It honestly felt like we were actually kind of mentoring Zero throughout the expansion patches.
It felt like this was what they wanted to do with Wuk and DT, but it just fell flat. I don't think Wuk is a bad character, but just a victim of bad execution.
Wuk never really changed at all. Feels the cats same as she does in 6.55 for me. The exact same
Zero was cool but the Thirteenth needed its own expansion just like the First, in my opinion. Going back there and resolving the problems within a patch (without even bringing back Gaia on top of it) makes the whole thing feel like a speed bump on the way to DT.
I tend to agree, but I also think we're going to go back to the 13th in a future expac.
I think the fact that Zero's story was spread out over such along period of IRL time made it easier to accept their character development. Wuk Lamat feels bad at times because she's so rushed. They wanted to capture that same character progression that Zero went through in a single expansion, but digesting that expansion as we all do (as quickly as possible, usually) makes it feel really bad by comparison.
So yeah, I basically agree with you. It's the same kind of story, but we didn't have IRL timing to space it out and make it feel more natural for Wuk Lamat. It's a lot easier to buy that a character has grown when you have to wait literal months for the next part of their story. I suspect that playing the 6.X patches back to back will feel similarly rushed to newer players since they won't have to wait in between.
Honestly, this might be a bit of an answer as to why some expac patches feel weird in retrospect. Maybe the Crystal Braves arc would have felt less weird to me if I had been forced to wait for patches to get story updates.
Genuinely good analysis! +1 sub
ETA: Finishing the video now, you're saying basically same thing lmao. I should have just kept watching. (:
Wait. Some people don't like zero?
Zero had linear character development which naturally developed and it was surrounding the void, something we interacted with since arr. we had a connection to the content. this felt good, bringing in the 1st also made this contect feel alive.
i must admit, that due to my depression, i did not do the post EW patches till about a month before DT, so the story just flowed well for me
DT felt stale till after the ascension to the throne. only once we had a familiar threat, did the story begin to feel alive.
one thing that DT copied from ShB and failed it its execution, was the early split. with the twins it made sense as each are their own person with their own path.
be it with the hanu hanu or the pelu pelu, wuk lamat made one step forward, we had to go to the other area and she made two steps back, and she was where we started when we went to the third area. her repetitive story made it just feel... poorly writen compared to what we got before.
erenvill was way more important as a quide to the story than wuk lamat was. the only good thing she ever did in my eyes, was sharing with koana. togehter they make a well writen character...
hell i would have loved to see koana and wuklamat together say to zarul ja that their father did not want him to be alone when he passed, so he adopted siblings. THAT would have been the best send off and actually a good reason for even having wuk lamat with us. (her constant "sphene" shouting went on my nerves and the final fight felt worse when she appeared.)
I liked Zero and her story. I just didn't like how they put in patches. Wuk Lamat for is me is meh okay. She has a likeable base character but I feel her story was poorly done. Pacing definitely hurt both more with Wuk Lamat though.
i enjoyed zero's story arc more than wut lamat
i would love to see zero a lot more
liking zero is controversial? ok. ._.
The criticism of Zero; specifically the speed of Post-EW will get smaller over time. As it exclusive to people who did that story prior to patch 6.55.
Though honestly not fair to criticize Wuk Lamat to Zero. Post-EW has the Scions playing an active role. Golbez and the Four Fiends makes things more interesting by the power of nostalgia.
I thought I was okay with Wuk Lamat but when I consider she could be returning for 10 years, I am filled with dread.
Wuk Lamat is to Naruto whereas Zero is to Sasuke.
my thing with the expansion is it was suppose to set up a new over arching story like hyde x zodi but it seems shadowbringers with the lines from the death of emet selch is going to be the new storylines rather than an overarching story.
The fact so many think Wuk is the main char shows how bad people are at recognizing meta narrative. It's called dawntrail the main char is Azem the role our character resolved to take up the second we walked through that portal. Dawn = Azem. Tell me have you ever stopped to think the Azem symbol is a sun orbited by two objects and there's two dawn servants?
You are reading between lines that aren't even there.
The door is red simply cause the author said it was.
Zero being absolutely clueless made a lot of sense considering she spent countless millennia as a voidsent and is only just getting reacquainted with what it means to live as a person. It bears repeating that Wuk Lamat was the crown princess of a multicultural and diverse nation and barely knows anything about the people, in spite of the established fact from *her own words* that she did interact with these people in the past (like visiting the hanuhanu for their festival but doesn't even know their greeting? Really now) or her very reason to want to be the Dawnservant being very superficial and shallow; You want everyone's happiness? What if what made someone happy was to make others miserable?
The pacing of the patch content was unpleasant and that seemed to be a side effect of it essentially being the trial series stretched out to fill 5 patches. The over all story was good but it didn't really have cliffhangers. They ended two segments with Y'Shtola needs to go to the library to find books that someone wrote in spite of the fact that no one knows how to do what we're trying".
Someone who comes in late and experiences the 6.1 - .5 storyline all in one go without the breaks will probably have a much better impression. As far as the content, I enjoyed it and I liked Zero. I will say, though, that even as a huge fan of FF4, I was ready to move to another setting by the end.
i will NOT compare zero to wuk.
Zero is queen
*tips hat*
"Friends are good"
Great character, top tier writing
@@cheesemuffin8129 You think you'd fare any better in a void world where everyone is miserable, if you die you don't truly die and are just brought back, you can't trust anyone otherwise you get used/absorbed and where power is the only thing that matters because if you're weak you're enslaved... For thousands of years?
It becomes all you know, and you forget everything you once enjoyed and took for granted. You forget what it's like to trust people. You forget friendship was ever a thing. You forget what it's like to taste food, hell, you forget what it's like to have feelings in the first place because there isn't room for any.
There is no good or bad anymore, just survival.
At that point, you'd lead a life where it's absorb or be absorbed. No one does anything for free, it's always a trade. A favor for a favor. An item for an item.
You can't even be content that you survived through a day, there is no day. Or night. Just endless void with shards from the old world you don't remember anything about. There is no victory anywhere.
The only thing you have left is your own sense of self.
An existence like this for thousands of years is bound to make anyone numb from the sheer misery of it.
"Friends are good" is only a silly and obvious realization to us because we've not had those experiences. If you take into account what Zero has been through, the fact that she's willing to even try to engage in things like trust and friendship again is a miracle. Is it so hard to try to see things from the perspective of the character rather than just dismiss it and call it dumb just because you personally cannot relate?
Of course it's going to take a long time for these kind of realizations to come through, because otherwise there is no character progression. The slow, gradual growth IS the point.
Imagine how stupid it would've been that if one of the character said "friends are good" and she immediately renounces all precautions and just believes us.
It would be infantile at best. Trust issues are not so easily mended. I know this because I, myself, had to deal with overcoming them. It took years for me to do as she did.
The game portrays this process very well in my opinion. I'm sure it's been done better elsewhere, but I was personally very impressed with it, and I find it a disservice to say that the writing is dumb simply because it didn't happen fast.
Furthermore it wasn't even just about "friends being good". Zero's whole point is that she forgets what it's like to be human, and gradually relearns it over the course of the story with our help and she repays the favor by helping us. It was very touching to me.
I played all the EW patches at once, and I thought the patches were okay. I liked Zero and there good moments, but it really didn't do the high moments very well imo. It felt really anticlimatic. I liked it than DT though which I didn't think had very many good moments or enjoyable sections at all.
I did all of the endwalker patch story in one sitting and loved zero thought she was great wuk I liked for a bit then hit 95 was happy to see her go ... But she came back then I loved the story in Alexandria with her just being that one friend who no one really likes but won't leave them at the end queen gets rid of her finally I was free then poof she's back and at this point I hated her became that person that you hear is going to thanksgiving that makes you decide to stay home and eat cereal alone just so you don't have to see there stupid face I have a feeling the patch quests will be wuk going to the void playing that annoying song saying friendship and poof void fixed
Great point about patch cadence!
Thank you!
Zero is fine, but I couldn't bring myself to care about her. You said it yourself, the pacing wasn't on point. The void has a lot of potential for plot points and lore, but the patch msq was so god damn slow and predictable I started scrolling on my phone during cutscenes without realizing it.
I don't like the argument that some people keep bringing up, about it being good because its setup for future expansion, juste like the warriors of darkness in Heavensward. First off, that arc was way shorter. Also, a story should be judged on its own merits, not in retrospect with follow up stories. A story can be set up for later AND interesting at the same time.
Zero was an infinitely better character than Wuk Lamat. And we are 100% going to get a void expansion. And I'm hoping we bring Unukalhai and Cyella along for the ride.
why must we pit two queens against eachother?
especially when they're both hated for the same boring ass reason?
Nailed it with your "x.3" theory; climax in .3 followed by prelude to next expansion.
I lost all interest in FFXIV after 6.4. Didn't even play 6.5 and no interest in Dawntrail... my interest.... trailed off due to filler post-Endwalker content
I honestly thought that Wuk Lamat was going ti be the opposite of Zero.
In that she isn't particularly talented or special, but that she'd be great at bringing out the best in *others* through just being a, attentive sweet person. A true underdog (cat) that discovers what she's actually good at over what is traditionally expected, as the exoansion goes on and overcomes her insecurity that way.
Instead she begins and ends the story more or less the same. What an absolute waste of a potentially great character
Zero was a side character that becomes a main character of her own story. We found a way into the void, to search for the long lost sister dragon. She was an anomaly within the Void that could be reasoned with, who over thousands of years after the shard became void lost all emotions and desires except to feed. Which we help restore over time and she doesn't lose that awkwardness of needing to trade in either and such. Wuk Lamat was just boring, she acted like a side character with the dumbass goofs of uwu I get seasick, uwu I'm not good enough uwu. Like real 80's mascot character energy which is gross. How the Rite of Succession resolved should have caused a massive civil war, MOST OF THE POPULACE wanted the first or second promise to win, where are these people? You don't just switch your views and opinions on the fly like that, they should be pissed that the First got disqualified. And the Sphene stuff was just a mess of contradictions and really puts problems on the story if you have a device that can revive you and mess with your memories. And after all of that, what the fuck is Wuk Lamat even going to do as a Dawn Servant? Just be a seat warmer? Do literally nothing be hold the status quo? Like why was there not a scene where they bring citizens seeking guidance and resolutions to their problems? Nah House Cat just wants a big seat to nap in.
Extra super nitpicky: it's pronounced seh-sil. I know I know...both ways are correct but in the case of FF4, it is seh-sil. It doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things, just a bit of triva.
Zero was a miles better character than Wuk Lamat - I’m nearly finished with the MSQ and I swear the power of friendship has gotten old with this expansion also I know they said of WoL was going to take a bit of a backseat but honestly why are we even their lol 😂 and I thought this story was going to be all about Krile but she’s been in it for about 5mins!
I know it’s the start of a new arc but the main story has been solid if not spectacular (the dungeons, bosses etc have been designed well though).
I'll be honest with you, I don't like either of these characters, even Zero, and it has nothing to do with her being edgy and moody, I am edgy and moody myself, I am a withdrawn introvert who doesn't really "get" people.
It's her writing and how spineless it was. She is supposedly this voidsent who will not help anyone unless she is compensated...but this never has her not doing the right thing. She never lets some serious crime occur because she isn't compensated, we never see her actually be a flawed character, she always feigns like "oh man, but im not compensated" and is like "you know that nice thing you said about me in passing like ten days ago about how nice my hat is? Well ok, I guess that's payment enough for me to save your entire city and also the universe ig".
It's very tell don't show storytelling with her, everything we see about Zero is just dialogue pretending she has an arc, but in reality she starts of as a virtous edgelord and ends up as a virtuous non-edgelord, it's really an aesthetics change.
She isn't the main issue of post patch writing, the post patch writing of EW was atrocious and a major insult to intelligence uncharacteristic of FF (especially coming off such a strong main MSQ patpch like 6.0).
Wuk Lamat is in a similar boat, in that she NEVER suffers reprocussions for her supposed flaws. She is supposedly sheltered and ignorant of her people (somehow...despite it being a peaceful continent that is diverse in cultures, but let's suspend disbelief for a moment) but every suggestion to every problem she proposes ends up being correct. She gets all the trades correctly in Urqo, she conveniently gets the festival right (that the Hanu have...forgotten...despite being their main tradition? I won't beat a dead horse people rag on this with full right).
She is never wrong, she just grows more confident in herself.
The writers are just afraid of making these people flawed in any way. This would be like if Estiniens arc went from being lukewarm to dragons to loving dragons instead of being a bigoted dragon killer who hated their huts and later learned about their plight and changed as a person due to Iceheart.
Even when Wuk DEMONSTRABLY Fails to protect Tuliyoyal, she holds one little speech and...they're all fine with it? Why did the racist giants not attempt a coup when Tuliyoyal was weak? Why did rebel factions not form? Why did everything not go into absolute chaos!?
Because they needed to wrap this story by 7.0..that's why. This patch should have ended with the rite of succession, not alexandria. We should have had like 7.3 be the attack on tuliyoyal, and have 8.0 take us to alexandrias reflection. This is all very rushed and so any nuanced elements that could have improved the story just completely get overloked. It is really sad.
I agree with parts of this, but if the rite ended up lasting ALL of 7.0 I likely would've just started skipping cutscenes, and I was already tempted by the end of it as it currently exists. The rite story was mind-numbingly slow and felt like nothing in it actually mattered beyond Vali (which wasn't even part of the original plan for the characters)
@@Draco-9158 True, if it was like what we got but longer it would have been boring, but it doesn't have to be that way. It could have been better and actually explored societal issues and conundrums that Wuk was truly oblivious to and had to overcome to become dawnservant. It could have been an actual competition, with all 4 contestants (or at least the 3 promises) actually all having a legitimate claim and good points.
As it stands Koana and Wuk becoming dawnservant was a foregone conclusion, whilist Zoraal and Bakool were obviously bad and evil.
I believe the reason we got the 1st half as we did was because they rushed the shit out of the rite to just get Wuk on the throne so that they can focus on Alexandria instead.
@@ridleyroid9060 this is actually so laughably wrong its embarrassing. We've seen Zero's flaws plenty of times. In her introduction she literally says fk off I'm not helping unless you give me something. Y'shtola had to pay aether. Then Vrtra. You even see glimpses into the past how her flaws detrimental to her. You talk about intelligence and intellectual writing when you clearly lack it and the only atrocious thing here is your lack of critical thinking
Zero isn't thrown in your face for 95% of the msq and isn't the main focus for every single scene she's in. Also she isn't a big whiny naive womanchild with Naruto's mindset.
I still can understand why people don't like Zero but she's objectively not as obnoxious as Wuk.
Zero felt like a writer's edgy OC, but Wuk Lmao felt like a writer's Mary Sue fursona.
It's such a shame that we have another 10yrs saga starting off with a slog of a story.
I'm imagining in the future they will give the option to skip story until DT to start with the new saga for new players and it's SUCH a bad look to have DT as the starting point for new people.
It's the ARR situation but way worse in my opinion, at least for ARR, you can attribute it to being so old and being scrapped together asap for the rerelease of the game. DT story is way worse and it has no excuses.
You'd think they would know the importance of a good first expansion as an introduction for new players but i guess they didn't learn anything from ARR. 🤷♂️
They REALLY need to replace that "new" writer, it's obvious she can't write anything beyond recycled shounen garbage. She had her chance and she royally screwed it up, just find someone that can actually write this time, please.
Oh boy, post endwalker and dawntrail main quest my least favorite stories.
Yeah in the moment they def aren't my favs either (tho I love the subject matter with Zero's and the 13th) I think it laid a lot of groundwork that can pay off in the future
@JMulls I agree with you, because it is good story but the pacing and how it was told for both parts felt a bit off.
To me the post-endwalker msq was really supported by the nostalgic FFIV themes but Dawntrail introducing an original story by itself, did not have that foundation to support it.
But as we remain optimistic, dawntrail still has post-msq to build on that.
@@kkurston technically dawntrail's second part relied heavily on FFIX themes, but it was often overshadowed by wuk lamats constant yapping about peace and understanding.
Zero is better than Wuk Lamat, but she is just another bland edge lord with a tragic backstory. She isn't exactly a stellar character like Emet-Selch was so...yeah.
I agree with the sentiment that pacing was an issue post EW. But zero is just a garbage character. They are, amazingly enough, an amalgamation of two of the greatest character writing sins: they're a mary sue (although not the most egregious of them), and they're not interesting.
On the first count, she is the key to defeating Golbez and Zeromus. So much so it is implied that zeromus is unkillable without the ability Zero has. This makes us, the WoL and god slaying extraordinaire, pretty much useless. So a storyline that has revolved around us is finished off by some rando we meet who just happens to have the ability to beat the baddie. An everyone that meets zero just warmsup to them no questions asked.
More so, she isnt even edgy. She's just 'there'. The writer conflate being a wooden plank with being nihilistic and disconnected. Every other void character has some level of personality, where she is just kind of indifferent to mostly everything until she just starts being like "oh this is emotion? How novel." Then she decides to be a hero and saves the day.
Wuk, by all accounts, isnt much better tobe frank. But im hoping that we never meet zero again, or atlear in an incredibly limited capacity.
i like zero and detest wuk lamat
Zero to me what i liked was the entire learn her everything again becuse its been...who knows how long since she did any of it and how alien it is to her
Wuk is just a furry naruto that has a stronger talk no jutsu and i cant get that picture out of my head since i also dont really like naruto himself
Wuk Lamat was just annoying af.
Both are trash-tier mary sues
The fact that we're comparing one of the best side characters to the absolute worst is embarrassing and is reflective of ignoring your channel from here on out
I agree Wuk Lamat's goated LETS GO WUK LAMAT!!! 😺
all you peoplw hating now will end up like the DRAGON BALL GT fans when GT was new. keep the hating up👍🏼sorry this wasnt no emit type of character but this expansion wasn’t advertised to be the greatest off rip nor was the story line suppose to be world wide calamity threatening like we are use to. you peoples dopamine receptors are so off their rockers yall cant even enjoy smaller scale adventures and so on. sure wuks screentime could be cut shorter but thats exactly how GT fans were with PAN and Kid Goku.