“Being normal is not the absence of problems. It’s the willingness and ability to solve them.” Beautifully stated!! Your content is brilliant. So happy I found your channel!
I made ALL the mistakes you mentioned. Couples therapy was a triangulated disaster. Individual therapy with the wrong therapist left me in even worse shape. Mediation was a total waste of time and money. It all went exactly as you described. I am only now, 10 years later, figuring it all out. Thank you for doing this channel. I hope it helps someone else avoid these pitfalls. Reading Human Magnet now. Better late than never.
On therapist 2, trauma therapist on my own. Therapist 1 seemed to have lots if knowledge on narcissism. Even though she1 knew and saw husband project on me secessions, she refused to answer any questions at all about narcissism & manupulations, cognitive distortions. At the end, husband must called her and she out me on the spot and she sternly questioned me in front of spouse, " Would you call your husband and abuser? Would you call your mother an abuser?!" She then went on to tell me I should only talk to her & my husband if I have problems, not a friend or two or do research on UA-cam, etc. Gaslight, restrict, and isolate
I went through this process last year. It was bewildering and mind-boggling the dis-connect. I truly didn't think it was possible, hence going to couples counseling. I'd argue, not only was it a waste of resources (time, $, hope, etc) it had negative return - essentially fortifying the existing narrative. I'll add, the greatest education I've had for my situation was here on UA-cam. People, do not underestimate the credibility of information online these days. It has succeeded far beyond years of in-person counseling... and I don't discredit in-person... but for myself, the greatest returns have been finding and absorbing information such as the one I'm leaving this comment to. Peace, fellow Humans.
Ross , I want to thank you for helping me with becoming my very best self. I used to attract only the narcissistic men. When I read your book I thought I would never be able to attract any other types of men. 5 years later. I spot the narcissist in one to two days. And they can’t stand me anymore. And I am now attractive to the kind sweet men that I deserve. And I have your information to thank. I am so grateful. Grin. And happy.
The example of a narcissist and codependent marriage therapy session with a unaware therapist is exactly what happened to me. We lasted 3 sessions. Everything was "my fault" and every time I tried to discuss the entire picture my wife would get angry and the therapist would just sit there looking at us.
A R yep. Sounds like my sessions. The therapist in this case was a well meaning pastor at our church. He was not equipped for this type of personality disorder. Getting up the strength to leave both the church and this marriage. I
Imperfect Illustration I did it without the benefit of any NPD/SLD knowledge. A very bumpy road but no regrets, I have never been happier or healthier. Good luck!
yep - my escape from my narc has been entirely self-taught... as I think most other people's have been as well (avoid marriage therapy if you're with a narc is 100% correct - half of therapists out there are narcs themselves... plenty of supply in the field for them)
My marriage counselor had previously worked with domestic abuse situations for many years and spotted his crap right away. He let him know from session 1 that he was not putting up with any abuse, what so ever. A couple months later he told me to get my things tofether and come up with an end game. That was all I needed to hear. We have been divorced for 6 months now.
Sounds like a great counselor and you were a very wise and willing patient/student. Proud of you! Praying your next relationship is healthy and balanced and glorifies God!
Yes!! A must watch for anyone married considering therapy. This should be the most popular narcissism video on YT. Wish I found it sooner- I found out about on my own but the hard way. Hopelessly tying to educate and convince the therapist + going with their well-meaning but misguided suggestions to avoid being “difficult.” This is validating to hear. Thank you Ross- the related principles in your HMS book should be formally incorporated and a mandatory module for new and renewed licensure especially for couples counseling practitioners!!
Great video! Clear and concise breakdown. I’ve had this experience going to mediation groups, ministers and family members, trying to get help. They were clueless enablers. Telling me to “forgive” and trying to make things “equal.” Crazymaking. There is no way it can work. People have to understand narcissism. It’s not normal and cannot be approached as such. This video is the Truth. Great resource. Thank you 🙏🏾
queenjahneen100 yep. Just went through two different “counseling “ periods 3 years ago and as recently as a month ago. It was horrible! I felt like the pastor who oversaw the sessions did not understand narcissism, and would actually side with Nwife when she brought something up, and would overlook anything I brought up on her behavior. I felt so invalidated. Here planning my exit now. I’m going to let them know I’m leaving and I’m sure they are going to tell me that I don’t have a biblical reason, but at this point I’m beginning to not care anymore. I have to be true to what I seeing and where I believe God is leading me.
I experienced something related; my therapist wanted to have a family session and my dad acted like an angel and a victim, while I'm the one who's been in therapy for years. I'm pretty sure he is in the Narc spectrum, and my mom and I are very SLD. So, that plan lasted one session only. Thanks Dr. Ross 🛐, you've helped me a lot at understanding dynamics and realizing that I'm not the main cause of my family problems.
I was hoodwinked by a therapist located in Washington State. I found his marriage counseling on UA-cam. He was very convincing that he could help a narcissist. I fell for it because I thought I loved this narcissist. It wasn’t love. I felt sorry for him. Everything was a mirage. The therapist took my money and did not have my best interest forefront. Each sessions, the narcissist would lied to the therapist and after the session would be nasty, mean, and vindictive towards me. I agree with you. I was very lucky to finally leave this toxic narcissist.
@@ChristianOne Dr. Hawkins UA-cam channel Marriage Recovery Center. I felt abused my the narcissist and the therapist. Narcissists does not love themselves therefore they do not know how to love anyone else. They are people that have been wounded full of holes that they expect you to filled it up. Not possible. They can not be help may be…if they initiate therapy. I was an enabler, empath, and a pleaser raised by a narcissist mother. I felt not enough and worthless. Grateful for the lesson. Well learned. No longer a victim. No longer attracts narcissistic people. I am on healthy journey. 🙏🙏🙏🙏
Great video! The only good thing from marriage therapy is that the codependent can view clearly that the relationship can’t be fixed! This can be the zero point to start self love
The covert narcissist is very clever at presenting in couples therapy as victim/oh-so-reasonable. If the therapist isn't trained in narcissistic personality then they won't see past the mask. Extremely dangerous for the victim. Ross is right - DON'T go there! Couples therapy does not work for narc/abusee relationship. It's yet more trauma for the abused victim, the SLD.
I had the same experience. It was the idea of my ex to go to a marriage therapist when I told him that I would leave him. He was very confident thinking the therapist would help him to get me back under his control. She was very impressed by his acting as the best husband ever seen. So she said to me that I was fleeding from myself, because I could not see the problem in myself. That was what he liked to hear. Next time I was prepared for what was coming and I was strong enough to let the words come over me like rain over an umbrella. Riding home he was so infuriated because he didnt reach to get me back, that I was afraid to die in an accident, while he was driving two times too fast.
Yes my ex H fooled 2 counsellors.He refused to do the home work given by the therapists .Was agreeable to their face but did a complete 180 once out of the room.
Danielle Janssens I've had the same terrifying drive home from a holiday, all because I kept him waiting 5 minutes to look in a shop. There was no need to speed, or tailgate the whole way (about 90 miles), and the worst of it was our youngest son, about 4 years old, was a rear seat passenger. He acted like he'd done nothing wrong. Only God got us safely home.
Ja sure he got mad nothing could have possibly triggered him all these stories are so one sided. After this man just said working on the problem is a sign of being "normal" and you all just say how horrible the person was. Hopefully you found the perfect partner just like you are. No flaws no mistakes just hits all the time no stikes.
No it does not the narcissist smears you right in front of the counselor. They use it as a chance to make themselves look good and for supply and attention
Definitely. They use it as an opportunity to gaslight you in front of a professional and triangulate you with devastating effects. Narcissists don’t care. It’s a waste of time and dangerous even. I agree with Ross. There is zero point if the therapist is not experienced specifically with narcissistic pathologies.
Excellent video Dr Rosenberg! The narcissist will outsmart the therapist usually and will even use the therapist to gaslight the SLD/Co-dependent to regain control and beat the victim to an even more beat-up pulp.
I NOW understand why countless sessions of traditional marriage counselling never worked as a SLD/NARC couple. This video has opened a whole new world for me as far as counselling goes because I volunteer in a Marriage Rediscovery Program of which we were participants 4 years ago and realize why it is not working for us and how it has caused me more anxiety and hurt as the SLD. ( My NARC husband keeps reminding me that it is not working because I refuse to DIALOGUE.) A skill taught at this Rediscovery program. How can we, SLD's express our feelings on paper (dialogue) when we have been gaslighted, brainwashed, controlled and emotionally abused and then be expected to pen these suppressed eomotions? Yes, Dr. Ross, it all makes sense to me now. Why i find it so difficult to pen my emotions, I can't even identify them, never mind describe them. THIS HAS ALL CHANGED. IM ON THE ROAD TO SSLD RECOVERY, with a BANG. QUESTION: Is it possible for a SLD/NARC couple to change their relationship to an INTERDEPENDENT one?
I commend you for acknowledging the importance of a psychotherapist’s mental health. This can be devastating to the recovery of their client. Thank you for this channel. 👍
Yes my then covert narc (didn't know he was one at the time) husband and I went to a family marriage counselor. We got the homework... Yep it all backfired... The so called marriage counselor was a college professor... I tried to tell them after everything backfired ( did a bunch of research first) that my husband was a Narcissist... There answer was I don't put labels on people.... What the!!! When I was getting ready to leave the relationship I asked the therapist if I should tell him... I was leaving ( wasn't sure if I should or not) they said I should tell him... I didn't feel comfortable with this answer. In the same building there was psychotherapist/psychologist I popped in there to ask them the same question.. they didn't know me nor was I a patient of there's. I didn't have the time nor the money... There answer was no don't tell the narc you are leaving. Well I figured out away to get out of there even though it was half a lie. Had to go take care of an elderly relative who needed help... Early signs of dementia. Yes the relative needed some looking after... But they were pretty independent.
I've bought your book. I'm married to a narc, I'm pretty sure. One of the cruelest I've ever seen, I honestly feared him for so long. Panic attacks, fear shivering, begging for his mercy, I've become his child in some way. I'm trying to rebuild myself now. I'm not who I once was.
This happened to me over and over again during a very long, abusive marriage with a covert narcissist. Wish I had known before. Thank you for your content and help.
As a licensed therapist this video was an eye-opener for me! Excellent work! Now the next stage of referring out my SLD/PND couple to individual therapy. .
That won't work either except for the SLD maybe. I sent my narc to private trauma counseling and instead of doing ANY of HIS OWN work on himself, he used the time I had paid for to preach at the counselor and to throw out untruths about me to tarnish me in the counselors eyes. If you do refer them out.. warn the counselor to keep the narc working on HIMSELF. Even the sld counselor needs to know that the sld person will tend to be preoccupied with worry about the relationship or partner instead of truly focusing on overcoming their own issues. So it takes really great therapists to be effective with either side of that messed up coin.
My husband loves to go to therapy and constantly finding faults with me. He had many counselors because he loves to get professional opinions against me. If one counselor doesn’t play his games, he goes looking for another one. His current counselor told him he is so charming and good looking. Every time he comes back from this counselor he is hyped up because his flying Monkey counselor found another thing wrong with me. Last week I was diagnosed with BPD by them together. I never met the counselor so how is that working?
For some reason this popped up in my feed right as I had signed up for a counseling session. The counselor was horrible he discounted everything my husband did as just a sharp tongue and basically everything that you just said in this video so thank you
Thank you, Ross so much for your wisdom. This has finally given me an explanation of why I struggled so much in a 25 year marriage to a narcissist and why marriage therapy and mediation didn't work. I have spent so many years being told I was the problem but am now rebuilding my life and getting back some level of self confidence. I intend to get a copy of your book too. God bless you, you're helping a lot of people.
I have given up on therapy. We tried together. 3 times. A disaster. I’ve been to therapist by myself. A disaster. The last one didn’t even know what gaslighting was!!!!!! OMG. So, I know enough now from your videos, that I am totally F___ed. I’m 65. Things are at an awful state now that we both know that it is not ever going to work. He is getting extremely out of control in arguments. I walk away and stay away. But I’m losing weight because I stay in my room. I have no appetite anyway. Idk what to do. I’m financially 100% dependent on him. He will be merciless if I leave. But I have no where to go anyway. So, people, get out while you are young enough to make a new life for yourself! You are definitely in the greatest path if you are watching Dr Rosenberg!!! You are aware! I wasn’t aware. Knowledge is power! Do not waste time and money on marriage counseling!!!! Thank you Dr Rosenberg for all the videos you provide! ❤️🙏🏻
Josephine, you and I are in the same boat. Exactly, the same...I cannot stand my narc husband, he is a wretched human to live with, and a drunk to top it all off! Just as Dr. Rosenberg stated, that a lot of narcs have addiction issues as well. Can you imagine having to live with not only a sociopathic narcissist, (un-diagnoised) but a drunk that gets violent and wants to fight? He has always been the breadwinner, I also have anxiety disorder bad.....so cannot work in society and deal with all the backstabbing, and mind games that people play in the outside world. Now, after 26 years being with this drunk narc...and I am getting old now, and I have serious health issues... I am stuck. I need healthcare, and I enjoy the lifestyle he can provide. We are not wealthy at all...but I would be dirt ass poor if I divorced him. I have been poor most of my life.... I hated it! Who would put themselves back into poverty and living in the ghetto with huge crime rates, and not feeling safe? I sure as hell do not want to. live like that again willingly. Yes, I hate living with this mentally sick individual. But I need to survive somehow. in life..cannot work, tried to start gathering info for seeing if I could get disability for the first time...but then whammo....covid 19 hit. So much for being able to get the needed documentation and medical records I need to try to do that. Plus, tons of people warned me that the Social Security office always turns you down when you file for disability....I feel very stuck...and feel I have really no options. I have no family they are dead.
So interesting. In 1998 I started a masterʻs degree in conflict resolution and started taking mediation training. In early 1999 as I saw my relationship start crumbling (as I was becoming more empowered) a fellow student recommended ImagoTherapy, so we signed up right away. (I think he thought weʻd go so he could prove to her how horrible I was as a person; so he could win.) We went to therapy for 3 1/2 years and there was a night, finally, when it was "my turn to talk" first and then "his turn to talk" and it was clear that he had not heard a word Iʻd said. After 3 1/2 years of the same procedure every session, the therapist was shocked -- but there it was, right in front of her -- which I had been trying to get her to see all along. I could be sitting there, telling him "life from my point of view," and if he didnʻt agree with who I was at that moment, I just didnʻt exist. She saw him do that, she looked at me, she looked at him, stopped him in his tracks and said "do you hear what you just said? Did you hear any of what she said? Do you know that you just did not hear her? And what you just said proves that you are not listening to her?" That night for the first time ever I felt validated. Iʻd identified myself during this time as codependent. I saw that night what it was going to be like if I stayed with him. He would never see me, never hear me, never validate me, never listen, I would exist only if I agreed with him and lived in the box he wanted me to live in. I had a choice to make. It was scary, but I chose to leave. I never went back to the ImagoTherapist; I think he did. I donʻt know. We didnʻt talk, and by that time were living in separate homes. Iʻm the bad guy who then filed for divorce. This was a great video and very helpful for me to watch now, 20 years after the fact, to get some perspective on the counseling. Also thanks for the comment at the end about mediation. Yes: mediation is for people who care about themselves, and the other person in the relationship, and are both willing to have perhaps difficult discussions about the issues at hand. I can help with that as a mediator. It was interesting to hear you say that most therapists start out codependent, and some will mature beyond that. When I got into the conflict resolution class, I noticed that mediators are mostly either conflict-avoidant (me) or people who want to pour gasoline on the fires of conflict and enjoy that. I have since learned that you really canʻt "make peace" anywhere with anyone until you have made peace within yourself. So I agree with your assessment about therapists and had never thought about that. Itʻs so important to find a professional who is "healed" within, with whatever theyʻre trying to do professionally.
I’ve not even got into the video yet and I wholeheartedly agree. I went into a therapeutic setting twice with my narcissist husband. I got horribly gaslit both times by him denying his behaviour, the therapist buying that, and in one of the instances the psychiatrist taking my husbands ‘side’ and reframing all of his abuse as a ‘relationship issue’ intimating I was commensurately responsible for his abuse of me. Made me feel suicidal in the aftermath. Therapy only works with 2 people in full ownership of their feelings and behaviour, willing and ready to own their side of the fence. Both things that narcissists are incapable of. In the 2nd instance, I felt I had stumbled into a setting with a highly narcissistic psychiatrist as he behaved as though he had a god complex. Devastating.
Marriage counseling backfired with the ex narc. He projected, deflected, raged, and insulted the therapist to the point she would not see him anymore. They do not want to dig deep and unpack the crap that destroys them.
Fascinating! My ex husband is a pathological narcissist. And couples therapy, or any other kind of family therapy always turned out this way. Thank you so much! We really need your outlook on all this. So many therapists don’t help these situations, and in many cases only making things worse, without even realizing it. 🙏🙏🙏
I saw this happen. To save his marriage, he went alone to see our therapist. I asked him to discuss his lack of empathy with the therapist. He came home and told me the therapist said it’s normal for men to be lacking in empathy. That ended his therapy work. Legal mediation is next, and frankly, I’m getting pretty nervous.
I am so grateful to have landed on your channel Ross Rosenberg. You have answered my confusion from my and my narcs 7 months of marriage counseling. As you said, the counselor kept to his script, he wouldn't listen to my side of anything! I tried to let him know about my narcs cheating, lying, thievery, and abandonment!!! And not once was any of those addressed. One session he handed both of us a booklet on exercises we needed to do before the next session. Strictly by the book, this guy was. My narc and I were not living together anymore and the counselor didn't have that knowledge either. And a month after receiving out handouts, my narc told me that we were done with counseling. I wasn't informed about this? But it was my narc's responsibility, not mine. (I cannot say why yet) I now have learned that my narc was still cheating with not only one female but 3 and promised to marry them!!! And now, today, you have explained why I was not being answered for the many atrocities that my narc laid upon me! I am trying to divorce him and as I have learned through youtube, that Narcissists do not want a divorce, so they default, default, default. That is the childish way out isn't it? Any recommendations on that? Or who I might discuss that with? My attorney tells me that she knows all about narcs, I suppose I just might have to wait on that one, yes?
My experience proved this true. The therapist was ill equipped to handle it, and the practical advice given was always turned into a weapon to be used against me, later. We did see a therapist for a few sessions who knew exactly what was going on, however, he wasn't my therapist so I didn't have the one on one experience, he referred me out and at the time I didn't take his advice. I would encourage anyone to seek out private therapy before couples therapy even with a healthy partner.
Wow! I was today years old when I heard it put this way. I literally just got done telling my narc husband to find a therapist to go to about our marriage and his narc rage. It makes perfect sense why when we go to talk to someone that I never feel heard or validated, I leave feeling more vulnerable and wor se about myself, I feel PTSD anxiety because I know that when the doors shut I will have a fight and I will be told everything wrong with me, and it only makes us grow farther apart. I thought it was a good idea but now I know it's only there to make my decision I don't want to have to make. But I do appreciate this video so thank you!
I tried this with my ex-narc wife... therapist was also a narc, and ended up supplying info to ex-wife's lawyer to be weaponized against me in court. My only consolation is that it didn't have much impact in court, and the therapist went out of business shortly after.
I’m in individual therapy and have been in couple’s therapy with the narc before. He would never even listen to the possibility of him having a role in our problems. It was always all ME with him being the victim and when the therapist challenged that, he quit therapy. What I’m wondering now is why I can’t seem to break away from him. I’m definitely an SLDD, he’s a covert narc and I have no romantic or sexual feelings toward him whatsoever. Yet when we discuss breaking up I panic and don’t know why. My therapist says I have dependent personality disorder which I’m trying to work on. Sometimes things seem hopeless.
I have experienced exactly the same with the covert narc in my counselling. The counsellor was devalued/discarded when they finally started calling out his blaming me for everything, when previously he acted all grateful for the help and supposed benefit it had. In reality it was enabling him further to control me, while he didn't stick to his side of agreements. Feel free to contact me if you ever want to chat.
Same here. What really helped me was the no contact rule. At first i was relieved, but a few weeks into it, I started missing him and was tempted so many times to reach out to him. Thanks to friends who were always willing to listen and the super helpful videos on narcissictic abuse, I have overcome those urges and am now better. Warning though, i have not openly discussed narcissistic abuse with my friends - i guess you have to go through it to truly understand what it is. Trust the process of healing, and I hope you get the courage to take the first step. Clarity will set it but no contact is essential.
Dr. Ross. I found a good therapist because I knew what I needed from them. I am single, but finding the right therapist (for me feeling safe) was key to getting necessary validation. Reading books, support community/videos, taking notes, reflecting, intuition are my guides. Good therapy is validating. Thank you always;-)
Im so glad my ex narc didnt show up for therapy. Thank you to you, Lisa Ramono, and Dr. Ramani for making it clear how important it is to understand this. I almost don't regret not having gotten help sooner because in the state i was in I could have easily fallen into this trap. In fact during the worst of my depression my daughter had an eating disorder that seemed to trigger our nurse practioners disorder when we went to her for help and she consequently quit soon after. I could never shake the feeling that we were her tipping point but what do I know, im.an SLD learning. Love and light to us all 😬🙏💜👊
24.29 This is spot on Ross. Wish therapists could understand this. When I dared to question my couples therapist about whether she understood narcissism, and whether she might be being triangulated in the sessions, she shut me out and referred me to her solicitor! The covert narc ex even managed to get her to issue documentary 'evidence' which he then used in court. Utterly unethical.
I cannot begin to tell you how spot on accurate this is. My ex and I went to therapy, which was a total disaster. All she did was go "white hot" about everything that was wrong with me. She did 99.9% of the talking....all I could do was just sit there and listen. This lasted for about two sessions when he decided to split us apart. She went for another session or two then quit. In the past, she would detail to me how she attended therapy on her own, but as I look back upon it now, coupled with the information presented here by Ross and in his book, she would only attend those therapists who would validate her positions or tell her what she wanted to hear vs what she needed to hear.
My attempt at marriage counseling was an abysmal failure just as you described. When I brought up anything that the Covert Narcissist needed to change, he would retaliate & do the silent treatment until the following week's counseling session. (Triagulation was also used by the Narc with the counselor.) I gave up after 3 sessions & explained to the counselor & the Covert Narcissist exactly why I was giving up. Divorce mediation is required where I live & I told my attorney ahead of time that my husband would never compromise on anything ever - not even the required child support which is a simple math equation. Unfortunately, I was right & the ensuing court battle lasted 3 years - not including the follow up legal battles involving child custody changes & the related support payment fluctuations. It doesn't take children long to figure out that they have leverage with divorced parents & can play the system to their advantage. I am so glad my children are now grown & I am finally on the other side of the nightmare.
Very appreciative of the CAVEAT about the downside of any desperate uninformed rushed meeting with a therapist. Like all searches for professional help, it’s a time intensive endeavor if one is to get good results without adding more complications to the initial problem. (6:09) “…the therapist is seeing the problem mechanically….” which can happen if the therapist is not a good listener and just ‘beats around bush” not being able to pinpoint the actual issue that is creating the impasse. Besides, just like meeting a MD the cure/solution does not come automatically by mere attending a consult but by following up with Rx/ cognitive adjustments on our own. The bulk of the effort still rest on the individuals/partners seeking relief.
Genius observations. Really something to take into consideration. Glad I'm on my own healing process as I'm studying to become an Art Therapist. Being aware of the dynamic at the very least is so so so important.
Divorce mediation: The first group email this week... the narcissist writes to the mediator, that I agreed to pay more than half of the mediation expenses. We were all 3 on the phone when there was a verbal agreement for each to pay half.
My ex and I went to therapy. After the first session, I paid for sharing my side during the session on the ride home and days after. I didn't share much other than positivity for the future every session after.
It is curious that any marriage/couples therapist would not understand how prevalent and how destructive narcissism is in the percentage of clients that need their services. It is ignorance that almost borders on malpractice. Like an airplane mechanic that claims ignorance on how to use a torque wrench.
I wish I had watched this video 11 years ago. I wasted so much time and money in marriage counseling with my Narc. I think it just gave him more ammunition to later use against me. He also had our therapist so fooled with his agreeable, fake persona. He’d agree to things in therapy and then never follow through. What a joke!
Yeah my last therapist that I got rid of told me that she went on a rant about how women go off chasing men and neglect their children and she also told me that I didn’t have the luxury of having true love and that I was a victim I knew right then and there and gone
This is so true I luck out because I don't think this was well known back in the early 2000s this is my story I had a drinking problem since 14 years of age iam 62 now sober for 18 years if I was still with my ex husband I will not be sober since I live in the country now with no car and just a few friends and I can't get to any AA .meetings if I did that wouldn't work out because of the Slip's we have one daughter when she turn 4 years old her father started to use my daughter as a part of him if I understand this is what a narcissistic do I am just finding out about this and thank god things are started to look clear of what happened to me I couldn't get near my daughter or even talk because I didn't what my ex husband to gaslight me if he was playing talking or just watching TV if I.said something it was the wrong time even when my daughter got older and want out to go next door or not even around the block or a friend came to calling I would say good bye I was attack on that I didn't have a good bye because of you so I spoke at the wrong time like if I.said something like when he was doing something with our daughter I may him nervous I rude it for him and he would go on and on for hours until I broke down and ask him for money to go to the bar I know now that what he wanted to get me away so he can time with our daughter with out me I felt like I was walking on eggshell all the time another thing he did when we was on the beach And I would tell her not to go far out go only up to your belly and swim toward the beach and yes my ex husband was right in the water with her and I would see her going far up to her neck now at that time she five she can't swim the water has waves and bad currents that take you out I.would pull her out and my ex husband would say why you did that why you have to spoil it she was having fun when I did try to explain he didn't want to hear it but like all the time go on and on how I spoil it so with my stress and shaking I.would say give me money and their was a bar on the broodwalk and I.would go to the bar I got help we both went for help with the marriage well this is what happened he was saying the typist was wrong cutting me off not seeing the actions he took was having a negative effects on me but he would turn it around and say what I was doing was interference with a relationship with his daughter never our daughter his daughter At times I would run out in times at times my ex husband was ask to leave the room when I got stress then we was seen on a one on one meaning we was not together in the room when it was time to end it and this is when I luck out I was recommended to a abuse group I went their for two years I even got a free phone but only for emergency calls even though I was not hit I was being mentally abuse they help me a lot they the ones that told me that the social society checks in my name and my name over my daughter check was my I have control my ex husband is 25 years older then me and those was extra he wouldn't have gotten then with out a child and a wife or etc he made me cash the checks and give him every cent to him because he work for it and the income was his even when it didn't have his name of the check by finding this out was the beginning of freedom I moved in with a.friend met someone moved to another state but I have a relationship with my daughter I was able to get close to her.but I.allow. my ex to see her yes he did still did what he did but I had more control I could end the abuse I.was not trap.but all didn't work out my daughter did go to newyork to collage he moved to newyork with his sister another narcissistic and no they don't get along but they live together and abuse each other he was able to see my daughter more then me he even help me with money to go to newyork to see our daughter and his sister let me stay over her house but things started to change that effective my relationship with my daughter and it got worse when she moved to Virginia my daughter stop coming to my state only going to newyork where her dad and aunt live At first my ex was helping me see her in Virginia but at the end of the visit my daughter got mad at me because I protest yep you guess it I spoke at the wrong time and he would go on and on this happened all the time then he stop helping me to go see her say I have to find away to get money I have limited income in the mean time he running to Virginia every month and my daughter stop texting me stop calling me and stop telling me things yes we talk but not like before and I have to reach out to her then one day my daughter was coming to newyork And I had the money to go but couldn't afford a hotel I ask to say over my ex sister in law she turn on me calling me a bitch and iam a horrible mother and she don't want me in her house the biggest heartbreak I got when I.save up.money to see her a year ago on Thanksgiving and of couse her dad was their everything was good my daughter was talking to me asking me things just like the old days but that all change the next day after dinner my ex said he wanted to go to. The hospital I wish I.did go to but didn't I.already had my PJ on and was going to sleep well when. They. Did get back I.was awake watching TV she said I.can't have you both here mom you going back home tomorrow when I.started to protest a little with why because the plan was for me to stayed for a few days my daughter went into a rage saying I.was a drunk I was a horrible mother. And I abuse her yes I did have a drinking problem but I didn't drink every day and their was times when I had some times of not drinking at all that would last a few months before I got fully sober I never abuse her she gotten what she wanted she didn't think this when she was with me her friends loved me they called me mom my daughter even took me out with her friends when she got her car I was not a horrible mom then the things my daughter was yelling at me was untrue and of course my ex said you were drinking you don't remember I never abuse someone when I.was drinking I was a calm and didn't talk much and when I had too much went to bed I never could keep up with my drinking Buddy's and I was always kind willing to help anyone out iam a very given person and my daughter got brainwashed against me of course I have to see on factbook my.dad the best dad etc now iam out he getting the phones call he having the relationship and he destroyed mines but my daughter got married a few months ago and now my ex is leaving voicemails.complaining for the very same things he did to me he just went to the next one unfortunate is my daughter husband maybe this is a blessing maybe she will find out what I was telling her was true maybe. She would believe my side
I came to the conclusion that personal therapy was the ticket so I could land on my feet, my significant other “shined like a diamond” to the therapist even though I let him know that she almost got us in a car accident while suffering a Narc’ injury. Some of these folks have zero fear while in counseling very proficient at what they do. The therapist refused to acknowledge the term Narcissist. And pleaded for me to be the nice guy while suffering through these incidents..”Save yourself from this corrupt generation”
I have mixed feelings about this video, despite so many good videos. In my experience, my ex wanted counseling so as to manipulate the counselor into gaslighting me. So, from my vantage point, they wanted counseling and where masters at keeping the focus on what is wrong with the codependent. I was amazed at how adept she was in keeping the focus off her clearly pathological behaviors, such as threats, attempted suicides, etc. It left a very bad taste in my mouth for couples therapy as well as private therapy as her therapists have just enabled her in her delusions. So while i was ooen to,counseling i,came to oppose it as I began to see how it was playing out. But I guess in the end Ross seems to affirm this, so perhaps its a moot point.
What if you can't keep your mouth shut? Or do you ”play dumb”? If so how do I not get sucked in? We have a four year old together and my son and I'm stuck in the same house after we've decided to divorce. He's very covert so I have no idea to what extent. Am I really in that much danger? Sounds like I'm being crazy
I think I tried to get my ex-wife to go to counseling at least four to five times before finalizing the divorce she only took me up on the offer once and of course during that one time she threw me under the bus the other time she claimed she had other stuff to do but was actually on a coffee date with another male and fell asleep during another section that I had planned I eventually reached the conclusion that I can't solve my relationship issues just by myself and if she actually had an interest she would bother to wake up or not go on a date with another man
Therapist began having sex with Narcissist who then began trying to kill me. Divorce works really well along with No contact. Learned without help from therapist. Concluded that problems were not solvable.
My wife (who I believe is a covert narcissist) and I have started marriage counseling....so....if this isn't the right answer (it took a while for her to agree to go) what should I do??? What should my first step be???
I have survived the divorce, and am in therapy and al-anon. I have Trauma and PTSD from childhood, and am being treated with EMDR. Can this help as much as the HITCH trauma release you use? EMDR is available here. Are there online options to experience HITCH?
If you are with ANY ADULT that LIES TO YOU and repeatedly THROWS TEMPER TANTRUMS when you challenge them, YOU ARE A FOOL to think counseling or therapy is going to help resolve your concerns.
It is not necessary with couples theraphy, i have seen and experineced countless times victims being (as if they asked for perfecting narcisistic abuse) shaped according to partners not existing in the room but as their partners. Narcisisticabuse is an alive phenomenon and sticks with victims field.
Don't waste your time with couples therapy. Individual therapy with a therapist who deals with NPD and/or co-dependency. But don't go as a couple. It's a &_+) show.
He's so correct. Our marriage councelor quickly "stopped" counceling my x husband, and told me he was a psychopath. Yet The principal of the school, accidently provided a platform for abuse where my x berated me
Everything you say is absolutely correct I was in a relationship for five years with a covert narcissist which I completely believe was malignant and psychopathic and this is exactly what would freaking happen if you went to a therapist if they don’t understand narcissism, but that is very weird and itself I think every psychologist or therapist should understand about narcissism but narcissism is so hard to understand even if they went and learned it Unless you actually knew or dated someone who is a narcissist they would never get it. nobody gets it my narcissistic partner was so charming no one would ever believe that she was that abusive and downright evil in my opinion but I don’t like to say that because this is a disorder but at the same time they have free will and they choose to hurt people they love to hurt people. I would just say you have to leave and break up because that narcissist is freaking cheating on you the whole time and then gaslighting you and you have the feelings that they’ve been cheating every sign in the book but they gaslight you and convince you that they’re not but they are and you will find out sooner or later that’s what they’re doing and you might as well save yourself some time in some pain and get the fuck out of the relationship or than that there’s no helping you I’m sorry are used to have this rainbow magical thinking that somehow my love would be strong enough to save them and change them if they do not want to change they will not change they do not want to change they love hurting people they love fucking other people nobody‘s dick is gonna be big enough No one can love them enough because they don’t let themselves in the head themselves so they hate you I hate everyone and they’re going straight to hell because they choose to do what they do in they love it
“Being normal is not the absence of problems. It’s the willingness and ability to solve them.” Beautifully stated!! Your content is brilliant. So happy I found your channel!
Thank you for your support!
I loved this comment as well!
I made ALL the mistakes you mentioned. Couples therapy was a triangulated disaster. Individual therapy with the wrong therapist left me in even worse shape. Mediation was a total waste of time and money. It all went exactly as you described. I am only now, 10 years later, figuring it all out. Thank you for doing this channel. I hope it helps someone else avoid these pitfalls. Reading Human Magnet now. Better late than never.
Thanks for sharing Patty. Glad to hear that Ross's resources are helping you heal and grow. Indeed, it is never too late. Cheers.
On therapist 2, trauma therapist on my own. Therapist 1 seemed to have lots if knowledge on narcissism. Even though she1 knew and saw husband project on me secessions, she refused to answer any questions at all about narcissism & manupulations, cognitive distortions. At the end, husband must called her and she out me on the spot and she sternly questioned me in front of spouse, " Would you call your husband and abuser? Would you call your mother an abuser?!" She then went on to tell me I should only talk to her & my husband if I have problems, not a friend or two or do research on UA-cam, etc. Gaslight, restrict, and isolate
I went through this process last year. It was bewildering and mind-boggling the dis-connect. I truly didn't think it was possible, hence going to couples counseling. I'd argue, not only was it a waste of resources (time, $, hope, etc) it had negative return - essentially fortifying the existing narrative.
I'll add, the greatest education I've had for my situation was here on UA-cam. People, do not underestimate the credibility of information online these days. It has succeeded far beyond years of in-person counseling... and I don't discredit in-person... but for myself, the greatest returns have been finding and absorbing information such as the one I'm leaving this comment to. Peace, fellow Humans.
Thank you for the comments and support of Ross's work!
True
Ross , I want to thank you for helping me with becoming my very best self. I used to attract only the narcissistic men. When I read your book I thought I would never be able to attract any other types of men. 5 years later. I spot the narcissist in one to two days. And they can’t stand me anymore. And I am now attractive to the kind sweet men that I deserve. And I have your information to thank. I am so grateful. Grin. And happy.
I am so glad Dana. Thank you for your support
The example of a narcissist and codependent marriage therapy session with a unaware therapist is exactly what happened to me. We lasted 3 sessions. Everything was "my fault" and every time I tried to discuss the entire picture my wife would get angry and the therapist would just sit there looking at us.
A R yep. Sounds like my sessions. The therapist in this case was a well meaning pastor at our church. He was not equipped for this type of personality disorder. Getting up the strength to leave both the church and this marriage. I
Imperfect Illustration I did it without the benefit of any NPD/SLD knowledge. A very bumpy road but no regrets, I have never been happier or healthier. Good luck!
yep - my escape from my narc has been entirely self-taught... as I think most other people's have been as well (avoid marriage therapy if you're with a narc is 100% correct - half of therapists out there are narcs themselves... plenty of supply in the field for them)
My marriage counselor had previously worked with domestic abuse situations for many years and spotted his crap right away. He let him know from session 1 that he was not putting up with any abuse, what so ever. A couple months later he told me to get my things tofether and come up with an end game. That was all I needed to hear. We have been divorced for 6 months now.
You had a very good and wise therapist. That is rare.
Sounds like a great counselor and you were a very wise and willing patient/student. Proud of you! Praying your next relationship is healthy and balanced and glorifies God!
Yes!! A must watch for anyone married considering therapy. This should be the most popular narcissism video on YT. Wish I found it sooner- I found out about on my own but the hard way. Hopelessly tying to educate and convince the therapist + going with their well-meaning but misguided suggestions to avoid being “difficult.” This is validating to hear. Thank you Ross- the related principles in your HMS book should be formally incorporated and a mandatory module for new and renewed licensure especially for couples counseling practitioners!!
Thank you so much for sharing Brian! So glad that you liked Ross's book.
Great video! Clear and concise breakdown. I’ve had this experience going to mediation groups, ministers and family members, trying to get help. They were clueless enablers. Telling me to “forgive” and trying to make things “equal.” Crazymaking. There is no way it can work. People have to understand narcissism. It’s not normal and cannot be approached as such. This video is the Truth. Great resource. Thank you 🙏🏾
queenjahneen100 yep. Just went through two different “counseling “ periods 3 years ago and as recently as a month ago. It was horrible! I felt like the pastor who oversaw the sessions did not understand narcissism, and would actually side with Nwife when she brought something up, and would overlook anything I brought up on her behavior. I felt so invalidated. Here planning my exit now. I’m going to let them know I’m leaving and I’m sure they are going to tell me that I don’t have a biblical reason, but at this point I’m beginning to not care anymore. I have to be true to what I seeing and where I believe God is leading me.
I experienced something related; my therapist wanted to have a family session and my dad acted like an angel and a victim, while I'm the one who's been in therapy for years. I'm pretty sure he is in the Narc spectrum, and my mom and I are very SLD. So, that plan lasted one session only.
Thanks Dr. Ross 🛐, you've helped me a lot at understanding dynamics and realizing that I'm not the main cause of my family problems.
I was hoodwinked by a therapist located in Washington State. I found his marriage counseling on UA-cam. He was very convincing that he could help a narcissist. I fell for it because I thought I loved this narcissist. It wasn’t love. I felt sorry for him. Everything was a mirage. The therapist took my money and did not have my best interest forefront. Each sessions, the narcissist would lied to the therapist and after the session would be nasty, mean, and vindictive towards me. I agree with you.
I was very lucky to finally leave this toxic narcissist.
I have wondered about him too
Sounds like my husband
What was his name? (The therapist)
@@ChristianOne Dr. Hawkins UA-cam channel Marriage Recovery Center. I felt abused my the narcissist and the therapist. Narcissists does not love themselves therefore they do not know how to love anyone else. They are people that have been wounded full of holes that they expect you to filled it up. Not possible. They can not be help may be…if they initiate therapy. I was an enabler, empath, and a pleaser raised by a narcissist mother. I felt not enough and worthless. Grateful for the lesson. Well learned. No longer a victim. No longer attracts narcissistic people. I am on healthy journey. 🙏🙏🙏🙏
@@radianceface5107 Thank you so much for having the courage to speak up and reveal your experience.
Great video! The only good thing from marriage therapy is that the codependent can view clearly that the relationship can’t be fixed! This can be the zero point to start self love
The covert narcissist is very clever at presenting in couples therapy as victim/oh-so-reasonable. If the therapist isn't trained in narcissistic personality then they won't see past the mask. Extremely dangerous for the victim. Ross is right - DON'T go there! Couples therapy does not work for narc/abusee relationship. It's yet more trauma for the abused victim, the SLD.
I had the same experience. It was the idea of my ex to go to a marriage therapist when I told him that I would leave him. He was very confident thinking the therapist would help him to get me back under his control. She was very impressed by his acting as the best husband ever seen. So she said to me that I was fleeding from myself, because I could not see the problem in myself. That was what he liked to hear. Next time I was prepared for what was coming and I was strong enough to let the words come over me like rain over an umbrella. Riding home he was so infuriated because he didnt reach to get me back, that I was afraid to die in an accident, while he was driving two times too fast.
Yes my ex H fooled 2 counsellors.He refused to do the home work given by the therapists .Was agreeable to their face but did a complete 180 once out of the room.
So true, wish I had known, it would have saved me a lot of extra pain!
Danielle Janssens I've had the same terrifying drive home from a holiday, all because I kept him waiting 5 minutes to look in a shop. There was no need to speed, or tailgate the whole way (about 90 miles), and the worst of it was our youngest son, about 4 years old, was a rear seat passenger. He acted like he'd done nothing wrong. Only God got us safely home.
Ja sure he got mad nothing could have possibly triggered him all these stories are so one sided. After this man just said working on the problem is a sign of being "normal" and you all just say how horrible the person was. Hopefully you found the perfect partner just like you are. No flaws no mistakes just hits all the time no stikes.
No it does not the narcissist smears you right in front of the counselor. They use it as a chance to make themselves look good and for supply and attention
Not covert...sneaky as all hell!
Definitely. They use it as an opportunity to gaslight you in front of a professional and triangulate you with devastating effects. Narcissists don’t care. It’s a waste of time and dangerous even. I agree with Ross. There is zero point if the therapist is not experienced specifically with narcissistic pathologies.
Excellent video Dr Rosenberg! The narcissist will outsmart the therapist usually and will even use the therapist to gaslight the SLD/Co-dependent to regain control and beat the victim to an even more beat-up pulp.
I am terrified of this. I am the only one in the relationship with complaints.
I NOW understand why countless sessions of traditional marriage counselling never worked as a SLD/NARC couple. This video has opened a whole new world for me as far as counselling goes because I volunteer in a Marriage Rediscovery Program of which we were participants 4 years ago and realize why it is not working for us and how it has caused me more anxiety and hurt as the SLD. ( My NARC husband keeps reminding me that it is not working because I refuse to DIALOGUE.) A skill taught at this Rediscovery program. How can we, SLD's express our feelings on paper (dialogue) when we have been gaslighted, brainwashed, controlled and emotionally abused and then be expected to pen these suppressed eomotions? Yes, Dr. Ross, it all makes sense to me now. Why i find it so difficult to pen my emotions, I can't even identify them, never mind describe them. THIS HAS ALL CHANGED. IM ON THE ROAD TO SSLD RECOVERY, with a BANG. QUESTION: Is it possible for a SLD/NARC couple to change their relationship to an INTERDEPENDENT one?
I commend you for acknowledging the importance of a psychotherapist’s mental health. This can be devastating to the recovery of their client. Thank you for this channel. 👍
Yes my then covert narc (didn't know he was one at the time) husband and I went to a family marriage counselor. We got the homework... Yep it all backfired... The so called marriage counselor was a college professor... I tried to tell them after everything backfired ( did a bunch of research first) that my husband was a Narcissist... There answer was I don't put labels on people.... What the!!! When I was getting ready to leave the relationship I asked the therapist if I should tell him... I was leaving ( wasn't sure if I should or not) they said I should tell him... I didn't feel comfortable with this answer. In the same building there was psychotherapist/psychologist I popped in there to ask them the same question.. they didn't know me nor was I a patient of there's. I didn't have the time nor the money... There answer was no don't tell the narc you are leaving. Well I figured out away to get out of there even though it was half a lie. Had to go take care of an elderly relative who needed help... Early signs of dementia. Yes the relative needed some looking after... But they were pretty independent.
I've bought your book.
I'm married to a narc, I'm pretty sure.
One of the cruelest I've ever seen, I honestly feared him for so long. Panic attacks, fear shivering, begging for his mercy, I've become his child in some way.
I'm trying to rebuild myself now.
I'm not who I once was.
Thank you Dr. Rosenberg. The Human Magnet Syndrome is a phenomenal book, everyone should read it. Stay safe. x
Thank you for your support!
This happened to me over and over again during a very long, abusive marriage with a covert narcissist. Wish I had known before. Thank you for your content and help.
Thanks for listening.
As a licensed therapist this video was an eye-opener for me! Excellent work! Now the next stage of referring out my SLD/PND couple to individual therapy. .
That won't work either except for the SLD maybe. I sent my narc to private trauma counseling and instead of doing ANY of HIS OWN work on himself, he used the time I had paid for to preach at the counselor and to throw out untruths about me to tarnish me in the counselors eyes.
If you do refer them out.. warn the counselor to keep the narc working on HIMSELF. Even the sld counselor needs to know that the sld person will tend to be preoccupied with worry about the relationship or partner instead of truly focusing on overcoming their own issues. So it takes really great therapists to be effective with either side of that messed up coin.
I have read, and recommend, your book The Human Magnet Syndrome: Why we love people who hurt us. Thank you for all you give on this channel.
My husband loves to go to therapy and constantly finding faults with me. He had many counselors because he loves to get professional opinions against me. If one counselor doesn’t play his games, he goes looking for another one. His current counselor told him he is so charming and good looking. Every time he comes back from this counselor he is hyped up because his flying Monkey counselor found another thing wrong with me. Last week I was diagnosed with BPD by them together. I never met the counselor so how is that working?
For some reason this popped up in my feed right as I had signed up for a counseling session.
The counselor was horrible he discounted everything my husband did as just a sharp tongue and basically everything that you just said in this video so thank you
Excellent Jocelyn! Glad this was helpful.
Holy snikes. This hits on what I went through the last 6-8 years. Thanks for all your videos. This freaked me out how accurate all you statements are.
You're very welcome Kirk.
Thank you, Ross so much for your wisdom. This has finally given me an explanation of why I struggled so much in a 25 year marriage to a narcissist and why marriage therapy and mediation didn't work. I have spent so many years being told I was the problem but am now rebuilding my life and getting back some level of self confidence. I intend to get a copy of your book too. God bless you, you're helping a lot of people.
You are very welcome Colin. Thank you for your support!
Something I figured out the other day. Replace thoughts of "being the problem" with "I'm strong".
It's always showtime for the narcissist who generally dances around the truth, victim blames and never accepts responsibility for his or her actions.
I have given up on therapy. We tried together. 3 times. A disaster. I’ve been to therapist by myself. A disaster. The last one didn’t even know what gaslighting was!!!!!! OMG.
So, I know enough now from your videos, that I am totally F___ed. I’m 65. Things are at an awful state now that we both know that it is not ever going to work. He is getting extremely out of control in arguments. I walk away and stay away. But I’m losing weight because I stay in my room. I have no appetite anyway. Idk what to do. I’m financially 100% dependent on him. He will be merciless if I leave. But I have no where to go anyway.
So, people, get out while you are young enough to make a new life for yourself! You are definitely in the greatest path if you are watching Dr Rosenberg!!! You are aware! I wasn’t aware. Knowledge is power! Do not waste time and money on marriage counseling!!!!
Thank you Dr Rosenberg for all the videos you provide! ❤️🙏🏻
Josephine, you and I are in the same boat. Exactly, the same...I cannot stand my narc husband, he is a wretched human to live with, and a drunk to top it all off!
Just as Dr. Rosenberg stated, that a lot of narcs have addiction issues as well. Can you imagine having to live with not only a sociopathic narcissist, (un-diagnoised) but a drunk that gets violent and wants to fight? He has always been the breadwinner, I also have anxiety disorder bad.....so cannot work in society and deal with all the backstabbing, and mind games that people play in the outside world. Now, after 26 years being with this drunk narc...and I am getting old now, and I have serious health issues... I am stuck.
I need healthcare, and I enjoy the lifestyle he can provide. We are not wealthy at all...but I would be dirt ass poor if I divorced him. I have been poor most of my life....
I hated it! Who would put themselves back into poverty and living in the ghetto with huge crime rates, and not feeling safe? I sure as hell do not want to. live like that again willingly. Yes, I hate living with this mentally sick individual. But I need to survive somehow. in life..cannot work, tried to start gathering info for seeing if I could get disability for the first time...but then whammo....covid 19 hit. So much for being able to get the needed documentation and medical records I need to try to do that. Plus, tons of people warned me that the Social Security office always turns you down when you file for disability....I feel very stuck...and feel I have really no options. I have no family they are dead.
So interesting. In 1998 I started a masterʻs degree in conflict resolution and started taking mediation training. In early 1999 as I saw my relationship start crumbling (as I was becoming more empowered) a fellow student recommended ImagoTherapy, so we signed up right away. (I think he thought weʻd go so he could prove to her how horrible I was as a person; so he could win.) We went to therapy for 3 1/2 years and there was a night, finally, when it was "my turn to talk" first and then "his turn to talk" and it was clear that he had not heard a word Iʻd said. After 3 1/2 years of the same procedure every session, the therapist was shocked -- but there it was, right in front of her -- which I had been trying to get her to see all along. I could be sitting there, telling him "life from my point of view," and if he didnʻt agree with who I was at that moment, I just didnʻt exist. She saw him do that, she looked at me, she looked at him, stopped him in his tracks and said "do you hear what you just said? Did you hear any of what she said? Do you know that you just did not hear her? And what you just said proves that you are not listening to her?" That night for the first time ever I felt validated. Iʻd identified myself during this time as codependent. I saw that night what it was going to be like if I stayed with him. He would never see me, never hear me, never validate me, never listen, I would exist only if I agreed with him and lived in the box he wanted me to live in. I had a choice to make. It was scary, but I chose to leave. I never went back to the ImagoTherapist; I think he did. I donʻt know. We didnʻt talk, and by that time were living in separate homes. Iʻm the bad guy who then filed for divorce.
This was a great video and very helpful for me to watch now, 20 years after the fact, to get some perspective on the counseling.
Also thanks for the comment at the end about mediation. Yes: mediation is for people who care about themselves, and the other person in the relationship, and are both willing to have perhaps difficult discussions about the issues at hand. I can help with that as a mediator.
It was interesting to hear you say that most therapists start out codependent, and some will mature beyond that. When I got into the conflict resolution class, I noticed that mediators are mostly either conflict-avoidant (me) or people who want to pour gasoline on the fires of conflict and enjoy that. I have since learned that you really canʻt "make peace" anywhere with anyone until you have made peace within yourself. So I agree with your assessment about therapists and had never thought about that. Itʻs so important to find a professional who is "healed" within, with whatever theyʻre trying to do professionally.
I’ve not even got into the video yet and I wholeheartedly agree. I went into a therapeutic setting twice with my narcissist husband. I got horribly gaslit both times by him denying his behaviour, the therapist buying that, and in one of the instances the psychiatrist taking my husbands ‘side’ and reframing all of his abuse as a ‘relationship issue’ intimating I was commensurately responsible for his abuse of me. Made me feel suicidal in the aftermath. Therapy only works with 2 people in full ownership of their feelings and behaviour, willing and ready to own their side of the fence. Both things that narcissists are incapable of. In the 2nd instance, I felt I had stumbled into a setting with a highly narcissistic psychiatrist as he behaved as though he had a god complex. Devastating.
Marriage counseling backfired with the ex narc. He projected, deflected, raged, and insulted the therapist to the point she would not see him anymore. They do not want to dig deep and unpack the crap that destroys them.
Fascinating! My ex husband is a pathological narcissist. And couples therapy, or any other kind of family therapy always turned out this way.
Thank you so much! We really need your outlook on all this. So many therapists don’t help these situations, and in many cases only making things worse, without even realizing it. 🙏🙏🙏
Thanks for sharing Jaime!
I saw this happen. To save his marriage, he went alone to see our therapist. I asked him to discuss his lack of empathy with the therapist. He came home and told me the therapist said it’s normal for men to be lacking in empathy. That ended his therapy work. Legal mediation is next, and frankly, I’m getting pretty nervous.
Vic Baker 🙏🏾🙏🏾❤️
I've experienced that marriage therapy turned things from bad to worse.
I am so grateful to have landed on your channel Ross Rosenberg. You have answered my confusion from my and my narcs 7 months of marriage counseling. As you said, the counselor kept to his script, he wouldn't listen to my side of anything! I tried to let him know about my narcs cheating, lying, thievery, and abandonment!!! And not once was any of those addressed. One session he handed both of us a booklet on exercises we needed to do before the next session. Strictly by the book, this guy was. My narc and I were not living together anymore and the counselor didn't have that knowledge either. And a month after receiving out handouts, my narc told me that we were done with counseling. I wasn't informed about this? But it was my narc's responsibility, not mine. (I cannot say why yet) I now have learned that my narc was still cheating with not only one female but 3 and promised to marry them!!! And now, today, you have explained why I was not being answered for the many atrocities that my narc laid upon me! I am trying to divorce him and as I have learned through youtube, that Narcissists do not want a divorce, so they default, default, default. That is the childish way out isn't it? Any recommendations on that? Or who I might discuss that with? My attorney tells me that she knows all about narcs, I suppose I just might have to wait on that one, yes?
My experience proved this true. The therapist was ill equipped to handle it, and the practical advice given was always turned into a weapon to be used against me, later. We did see a therapist for a few sessions who knew exactly what was going on, however, he wasn't my therapist so I didn't have the one on one experience, he referred me out and at the time I didn't take his advice. I would encourage anyone to seek out private therapy before couples therapy even with a healthy partner.
Thanks for sharing. 🙏
Wow! I was today years old when I heard it put this way. I literally just got done telling my narc husband to find a therapist to go to about our marriage and his narc rage. It makes perfect sense why when we go to talk to someone that I never feel heard or validated, I leave feeling more vulnerable and wor se about myself, I feel PTSD anxiety because I know that when the doors shut I will have a fight and I will be told everything wrong with me, and it only makes us grow farther apart. I thought it was a good idea but now I know it's only there to make my decision I don't want to have to make. But I do appreciate this video so thank you!
Thank you for sharing all the knowledge. All the minute details are explained very well.
Glad it was helpful!
I tried this with my ex-narc wife... therapist was also a narc, and ended up supplying info to ex-wife's lawyer to be weaponized against me in court. My only consolation is that it didn't have much impact in court, and the therapist went out of business shortly after.
Maybe they pissed off the judge at one point.
I’m in individual therapy and have been in couple’s therapy with the narc before. He would never even listen to the possibility of him having a role in our problems. It was always all ME with him being the victim and when the therapist challenged that, he quit therapy.
What I’m wondering now is why I can’t seem to break away from him. I’m definitely an SLDD, he’s a covert narc and I have no romantic or sexual feelings toward him whatsoever. Yet when we discuss breaking up I panic and don’t know why. My therapist says I have dependent personality disorder which I’m trying to work on. Sometimes things seem hopeless.
I have experienced exactly the same with the covert narc in my counselling. The counsellor was devalued/discarded when they finally started calling out his blaming me for everything, when previously he acted all grateful for the help and supposed benefit it had. In reality it was enabling him further to control me, while he didn't stick to his side of agreements.
Feel free to contact me if you ever want to chat.
Same here. What really helped me was the no contact rule. At first i was relieved, but a few weeks into it, I started missing him and was tempted so many times to reach out to him. Thanks to friends who were always willing to listen and the super helpful videos on narcissictic abuse, I have overcome those urges and am now better. Warning though, i have not openly discussed narcissistic abuse with my friends - i guess you have to go through it to truly understand what it is. Trust the process of healing, and I hope you get the courage to take the first step. Clarity will set it but no contact is essential.
Dr. Ross. I found a good therapist because I knew what I needed from them. I am single, but finding the right therapist (for me feeling safe) was key to getting necessary validation. Reading books, support community/videos, taking notes, reflecting, intuition are my guides. Good therapy is validating. Thank you always;-)
Im so glad my ex narc didnt show up for therapy. Thank you to you, Lisa Ramono, and Dr. Ramani for making it clear how important it is to understand this. I almost don't regret not having gotten help sooner because in the state i was in I could have easily fallen into this trap. In fact during the worst of my depression my daughter had an eating disorder that seemed to trigger our nurse practioners disorder when we went to her for help and she consequently quit soon after. I could never shake the feeling that we were her tipping point but what do I know, im.an SLD learning. Love and light to us all 😬🙏💜👊
Thanks so much for sharing. Please also consider exploring Ross's resources at: www.selfloverecovery.com/collections/video-seminars-downloads
24.29 This is spot on Ross. Wish therapists could understand this. When I dared to question my couples therapist about whether she understood narcissism, and whether she might be being triangulated in the sessions, she shut me out and referred me to her solicitor! The covert narc ex even managed to get her to issue documentary 'evidence' which he then used in court. Utterly unethical.
I cannot begin to tell you how spot on accurate this is. My ex and I went to therapy, which was a total disaster. All she did was go "white hot" about everything that was wrong with me. She did 99.9% of the talking....all I could do was just sit there and listen. This lasted for about two sessions when he decided to split us apart. She went for another session or two then quit. In the past, she would detail to me how she attended therapy on her own, but as I look back upon it now, coupled with the information presented here by Ross and in his book, she would only attend those therapists who would validate her positions or tell her what she wanted to hear vs what she needed to hear.
Thanks for sharing Gregory.
It’d be nice if you accepted insurance. I need a counselor like you.
My attempt at marriage counseling was an abysmal failure just as you described. When I brought up anything that the Covert Narcissist needed to change, he would retaliate & do the silent treatment until the following week's counseling session. (Triagulation was also used by the Narc with the counselor.) I gave up after 3 sessions & explained to the counselor & the Covert Narcissist exactly why I was giving up. Divorce mediation is required where I live & I told my attorney ahead of time that my husband would never compromise on anything ever - not even the required child support which is a simple math equation. Unfortunately, I was right & the ensuing court battle lasted 3 years - not including the follow up legal battles involving child custody changes & the related support payment fluctuations. It doesn't take children long to figure out that they have leverage with divorced parents & can play the system to their advantage. I am so glad my children are now grown & I am finally on the other side of the nightmare.
I read that book 4 years ago! Was my favorite and most enlightening.
Thank you Donna!
Same here, the original book 4 years ago. Shifted me and changed my whole life!
Very appreciative of the CAVEAT about the downside of any desperate uninformed rushed meeting with a therapist. Like all searches for professional help, it’s a time intensive endeavor if one is to get good results without adding more complications to the initial problem.
(6:09) “…the therapist is seeing the problem mechanically….” which can happen if the therapist is not a good listener and just ‘beats around bush” not being able to pinpoint the actual issue that is creating the impasse. Besides, just like meeting a MD the cure/solution does not come automatically by mere attending a consult but by following up with Rx/ cognitive adjustments on our own. The bulk of the effort still rest on the individuals/partners seeking relief.
this is really helpful! Thanks for taking the time to explain!
Glad it was helpful!
Genius observations. Really something to take into consideration. Glad I'm on my own healing process as I'm studying to become an Art Therapist. Being aware of the dynamic at the very least is so so so important.
Divorce mediation: The first group email this week... the narcissist writes to the mediator, that I agreed to pay more than half of the mediation expenses. We were all 3 on the phone when there was a verbal agreement for each to pay half.
You’re fab Ross!
Thank you for this! Very much appreciated!✌❤
You are so welcome!
My ex and I went to therapy. After the first session, I paid for sharing my side during the session on the ride home and days after. I didn't share much other than positivity for the future every session after.
It’s difficult to think I paid a couples counselor to help me lose everything. It feels criminal.
It is curious that any marriage/couples therapist would not understand how prevalent and how destructive narcissism is in the percentage of clients that need their services. It is ignorance that almost borders on malpractice. Like an airplane mechanic that claims ignorance on how to use a torque wrench.
Great video. Thank you
Timer set. The picture says a 1000 words,
I wish I had watched this video 11 years ago. I wasted so much time and money in marriage counseling with my Narc. I think it just gave him more ammunition to later use against me. He also had our therapist so fooled with his agreeable, fake persona. He’d agree to things in therapy and then never follow through. What a joke!
Yeah my last therapist that I got rid of told me that she went on a rant about how women go off chasing men and neglect their children and she also told me that I didn’t have the luxury of having true love and that I was a victim I knew right then and there and gone
I have a good one now, just need ppl who support me who are actually close by
How do I make him ”feel” like im not on to them? And begin to set boundaries?
Do you provide a (state by state) list of counselors who are trained in your understanding of SLDD for solo counseling ? Thanks in advance.
This is so true I luck out because I don't think this was well known back in the early 2000s this is my story I had a drinking problem since 14 years of age iam 62 now sober for 18 years if I was still with my ex husband I will not be sober since I live in the country now with no car and just a few friends and I can't get to any AA .meetings if I did that wouldn't work out because of the Slip's we have one daughter when she turn 4 years old her father started to use my daughter as a part of him if I understand this is what a narcissistic do I am just finding out about this and thank god things are started to look clear of what happened to me I couldn't get near my daughter or even talk because I didn't what my ex husband to gaslight me if he was playing talking or just watching TV if I.said something it was the wrong time even when my daughter got older and want out to go next door or not even around the block or a friend came to calling I would say good bye I was attack on that I didn't have a good bye because of you so I spoke at the wrong time like if I.said something like when he was doing something with our daughter I may him nervous I rude it for him and he would go on and on for hours until I broke down and ask him for money to go to the bar I know now that what he wanted to get me away so he can time with our daughter with out me I felt like I was walking on eggshell all the time another thing he did when we was on the beach And I would tell her not to go far out go only up to your belly and swim toward the beach and yes my ex husband was right in the water with her and I would see her going far up to her neck now at that time she five she can't swim the water has waves and bad currents that take you out I.would pull her out and my ex husband would say why you did that why you have to spoil it she was having fun when I did try to explain he didn't want to hear it but like all the time go on and on how I spoil it so with my stress and shaking I.would say give me money and their was a bar on the broodwalk and I.would go to the bar I got help we both went for help with the marriage well this is what happened he was saying the typist was wrong cutting me off not seeing the actions he took was having a negative effects on me but he would turn it around and say what I was doing was interference with a relationship with his daughter never our daughter his daughter At times I would run out in times at times my ex husband was ask to leave the room when I got stress then we was seen on a one on one meaning we was not together in the room when it was time to end it and this is when I luck out I was recommended to a abuse group I went their for two years I even got a free phone but only for emergency calls even though I was not hit I was being mentally abuse they help me a lot they the ones that told me that the social society checks in my name and my name over my daughter check was my I have control my ex husband is 25 years older then me and those was extra he wouldn't have gotten then with out a child and a wife or etc he made me cash the checks and give him every cent to him because he work for it and the income was his even when it didn't have his name of the check by finding this out was the beginning of freedom I moved in with a.friend met someone moved to another state but I have a relationship with my daughter I was able to get close to her.but I.allow. my ex to see her yes he did still did what he did but I had more control I could end the abuse I.was not trap.but all didn't work out my daughter did go to newyork to collage he moved to newyork with his sister another narcissistic and no they don't get along but they live together and abuse each other he was able to see my daughter more then me he even help me with money to go to newyork to see our daughter and his sister let me stay over her house but things started to change that effective my relationship with my daughter and it got worse when she moved to Virginia my daughter stop coming to my state only going to newyork where her dad and aunt live At first my ex was helping me see her in Virginia but at the end of the visit my daughter got mad at me because I protest yep you guess it I spoke at the wrong time and he would go on and on this happened all the time then he stop helping me to go see her say I have to find away to get money I have limited income in the mean time he running to Virginia every month and my daughter stop texting me stop calling me and stop telling me things yes we talk but not like before and I have to reach out to her then one day my daughter was coming to newyork And I had the money to go but couldn't afford a hotel I ask to say over my ex sister in law she turn on me calling me a bitch and iam a horrible mother and she don't want me in her house the biggest heartbreak I got when I.save up.money to see her a year ago on Thanksgiving and of couse her dad was their everything was good my daughter was talking to me asking me things just like the old days but that all change the next day after dinner my ex said he wanted to go to. The hospital I wish I.did go to but didn't I.already had my PJ on and was going to sleep well when. They. Did get back I.was awake watching TV she said I.can't have you both here mom you going back home tomorrow when I.started to protest a little with why because the plan was for me to stayed for a few days my daughter went into a rage saying I.was a drunk I was a horrible mother. And I abuse her yes I did have a drinking problem but I didn't drink every day and their was times when I had some times of not drinking at all that would last a few months before I got fully sober I never abuse her she gotten what she wanted she didn't think this when she was with me her friends loved me they called me mom my daughter even took me out with her friends when she got her car I was not a horrible mom then the things my daughter was yelling at me was untrue and of course my ex said you were drinking you don't remember I never abuse someone when I.was drinking I was a calm and didn't talk much and when I had too much went to bed I never could keep up with my drinking Buddy's and I was always kind willing to help anyone out iam a very given person and my daughter got brainwashed against me of course I have to see on factbook my.dad the best dad etc now iam out he getting the phones call he having the relationship and he destroyed mines but my daughter got married a few months ago and now my ex is leaving voicemails.complaining for the very same things he did to me he just went to the next one unfortunate is my daughter husband maybe this is a blessing maybe she will find out what I was telling her was true maybe. She would believe my side
I came to the conclusion that personal therapy was the ticket so I could land on my feet, my significant other “shined like a diamond” to the therapist even though I let him know that she almost got us in a car accident while suffering a Narc’ injury. Some of these folks have zero fear while in counseling very proficient at what they do. The therapist refused to acknowledge the term Narcissist. And pleaded for me to be the nice guy while suffering through these incidents..”Save yourself from this corrupt generation”
Dr. I could get the zoom chat to load and participate. Couldn’t ask questions or comment. I have zoom also. What happened?
We tried once and the Clinical Psychologist she chose had professional connections/history with my partner. They ganged up on me
I have mixed feelings about this video, despite so many good videos. In my experience, my ex wanted counseling so as to manipulate the counselor into gaslighting me. So, from my vantage point, they wanted counseling and where masters at keeping the focus on what is wrong with the codependent. I was amazed at how adept she was in keeping the focus off her clearly pathological behaviors, such as threats, attempted suicides, etc. It left a very bad taste in my mouth for couples therapy as well as private therapy as her therapists have just enabled her in her delusions. So while i was ooen to,counseling i,came to oppose it as I began to see how it was playing out. But I guess in the end Ross seems to affirm this, so perhaps its a moot point.
Both SDL and NC are pathological? Meaning uncurable ?
What if you can't keep your mouth shut? Or do you ”play dumb”? If so how do I not get sucked in? We have a four year old together and my son and I'm stuck in the same house after we've decided to divorce. He's very covert so I have no idea to what extent. Am I really in that much danger? Sounds like I'm being crazy
Divorcing a narc and state circuit requires mediation. Nothing like flushing more money.
18:00- is the main point.
I think I tried to get my ex-wife to go to counseling at least four to five times before finalizing the divorce she only took me up on the offer once and of course during that one time she threw me under the bus the other time she claimed she had other stuff to do but was actually on a coffee date with another male and fell asleep during another section that I had planned I eventually reached the conclusion that I can't solve my relationship issues just by myself and if she actually had an interest she would bother to wake up or not go on a date with another man
Therapist began having sex with Narcissist who then began trying to kill me. Divorce works really well along with No contact. Learned without help from therapist. Concluded that problems were not solvable.
My wife (who I believe is a covert narcissist) and I have started marriage counseling....so....if this isn't the right answer (it took a while for her to agree to go) what should I do??? What should my first step be???
I have survived the divorce, and am in therapy and al-anon. I have Trauma and PTSD from childhood, and am being treated with EMDR. Can this help as much as the HITCH trauma release you use? EMDR is available here. Are there online options to experience HITCH?
If you are with ANY ADULT that LIES TO YOU and repeatedly THROWS TEMPER TANTRUMS when you challenge them, YOU ARE A FOOL to think counseling or therapy is going to help resolve your concerns.
Oh so true🥺
Oh sh** I might be a narcissist who meditates fml😵
It is not necessary with couples theraphy, i have seen and experineced countless times victims being (as if they asked for perfecting narcisistic abuse) shaped according to partners not existing in the room but as their partners. Narcisisticabuse is an alive phenomenon and sticks with victims field.
Or the narcissist behaves beautifully, seems totally reasonable because he's "smarter than they are and just give(s) them what they want."
Gary B
You
Don't waste your time with couples therapy. Individual therapy with a therapist who deals with NPD and/or co-dependency. But don't go as a couple. It's a &_+) show.
He's so correct. Our marriage councelor quickly "stopped" counceling my x husband, and told me he was a psychopath. Yet
The principal of the school, accidently provided a platform for abuse where my x berated me
Is it really necessary to change the acronyms? It’s only confuses folks. We really need to step away from the labeling.
Everything you say is absolutely correct I was in a relationship for five years with a covert narcissist which I completely believe was malignant and psychopathic and this is exactly what would freaking happen if you went to a therapist if they don’t understand narcissism, but that is very weird and itself I think every psychologist or therapist should understand about narcissism but narcissism is so hard to understand even if they went and learned it Unless you actually knew or dated someone who is a narcissist they would never get it. nobody gets it my narcissistic partner was so charming no one would ever believe that she was that abusive and downright evil in my opinion but I don’t like to say that because this is a disorder but at the same time they have free will and they choose to hurt people they love to hurt people. I would just say you have to leave and break up because that narcissist is freaking cheating on you the whole time and then gaslighting you and you have the feelings that they’ve been cheating every sign in the book but they gaslight you and convince you that they’re not but they are and you will find out sooner or later that’s what they’re doing and you might as well save yourself some time in some pain and get the fuck out of the relationship or than that there’s no helping you I’m sorry are used to have this rainbow magical thinking that somehow my love would be strong enough to save them and change them if they do not want to change they will not change they do not want to change they love hurting people they love fucking other people nobody‘s dick is gonna be big enough No one can love them enough because they don’t let themselves in the head themselves so they hate you I hate everyone and they’re going straight to hell because they choose to do what they do in they love it