Thank you so much for this video. I just had fusion on 2 levels in my neck and will be restricted on recoil and shooting for 9 months to a year. Just ordered 2 boxes of the .38 Special short from Midway for my LCR. You just helped immensely with anxiety I had over being able to protect my family and me. As you said, .35 caliber hole and decent penetration beats a .22.
How'd it turn out with those loads? I did the same thing about 20 years ago after my neck and back were broken in a car wreck. For years I had to switch to lighter loads with heavier bullets, and really enjoyed shooting black powder. The slower impulse was more like a shove than snapping recoil, much easier on the neck while it was healing.
The Paralex View They worked well. They have almost no recoil even in my LCR. I’m cleard from the surgery now but my wife loves shooting them in her Taurus 605.
@@GunSam Which do you think would be best for my old hands...lol The 3032 TOMCAT INOX? Or the SW 637 Airweight? My arthritis hates me...especially living in Michigan winters! lol Or Taurus 856? I'm looking for less recoil & accuracy.....like everyone else I guess...lol I also found a Girsan MC 14T... I'm not familiar with this one...are you? It's a tip up gun...thats about all I know. lol
If anyone was wondering, I did use a recoil calculator to get some numbers on these different cartridges in my revolver. As a baseline, +P off the shelf ammo in the 125 gr variety, will give about 8.5 to 10 ft lbs of recoil energy. In comparison, the .38 CBS SPL Short gave a recoil energy in the snub nose revolver of about 3.5 ft lbs. The 148 gr Wadcutter was about 5.5 ft lbs recoil, and the 213 gr "Super Police" gave about 8.5 ft lbs recoil. The Super Police was on the low end of standard recoil, the Wadcutter was much lower, and the .38 CBC SPL Short was significantly lower in recoil energy.
AND, the recoil energy of the .38 CBC in the 686, was just over 1 ft lb felt recoil. I typed it right.....One foot pound felt recoil. In comparison, a full house 158 gr .357 Magnum in that revolver is about 7.5 ft lbs felt recoil.
GS, Your presentation displayed why the old .38 S&W was popular through much of the 20th century. Smith kept producing revolvers for that round , such as the Terrier M-33, up to the 1970's. When I was a reloader, I cooked up some special reverse facing full wad cutter bullet loads in both .38 Special and .38 Long cases. They weren't too accurate over 25 yards, but then again I wasn't concerned with what these deep hollow points would do on a paper bulls eye target were I ever forced to use them.
excellent video series on softer 38 ammo. for civilian defense purposes, especially more vulnerable seniors, women and physically less abled folks, consistent hits with softer ammo, even 22lr, always trumps misses with harder hitting rounds.
Excellent demonstration and conversation. I've loaded 38 special 110 gr short barrel gold dots with 2.7 gr of titegroup in an airweight smith for an 8 year old girl. Let me tell you, this young lady is an excellent marksman. Her father glows with pride.
Thanks for sharing different options for 38 special. Always looking for something different or better. Especially in my snub nose which shoots only standard velocity ammo.
I just got an order today, and in it are some Buffalo Bore standard pressure 110 gr ammo. The rated velocity they quote in a 2" is the same velocity as I get in a 2" with Critical Defense 110 gr+P. For a standard pressure, that's really good.
Good information. Decided to get my wife a 38 special instead of the 22 magnum, knowing that there are low recoil ammo options for the 38! Thank...appreciate your video.
Excellent presentation. You've got me convinced that I should probably be shooting the .38 short. However, as I commented on your last video, it doesn't matter much what is "best" for people with physical limitations; rather what is available is much more important. JMO.
Thank you. And I get what you mean too. I am only 40 years old but have rheumatoid arthristis along with spondylitis. While I can still handle most recoil fine as i'm not old, I still get a bruised feeling in my hand for 3 days from moderate recoil and I cannot imagine as I age this getting better.
Thanks for watching! I think what probably really happened with the wood, is that the whole board cracked upon impact, and then the bullet sort of just shifted in there as I picked it up.
MUCH APPRECIATED SAM. YOU DO SUPER PRESENTATIONS AND WE LEARN SO MUCH FROM YOUR TREMENDOUS KNOWLEDGE BASE. THE 642 WILL LIKE THESE MORE EASILY DIGESTED WADCUTTER ROUNDS TOO.
You agree with Paul Harrell it seems, that for personal defense I need to have a gun and ammo that I can #1 hit the target with, preferably every shot. For me that means a gun that I can run 100% waking from a dead sleep, like my revolvers, loaded with ammo that I can shoot fast and accurately. IMO, many gun so called experts are way off base insisting that only a .45 or a 9mm is adequate for stopping a bad guy. I'm over 60 and for me recoil is a big deal. And I grew up on revolvers. For many revolvers are the ticket. My 30 year old stainless snubby handles +p 38 spcl. fine, for me that is. I recently bought a LCR which weighs a half pound less, at 14 oz. The difference in my shooting ability with this latest greatest LCR is quite profound. For carry I'll probably stick with non +p ammo for now, maybe even wadcutters. Your videos are useful, thank you. I can relate to your methods and you bologna/jug setup. If I want to see jello shot Lucky Gunner does a good job with that. I'm not criticizing that BTW. BTW, Lucky Gunner recommends for new shooters the 38 spcl. LCR using wad utters. Hey...maybe they got that from you!
Yes and the weak load maybe is even more effective because it dumps more energy in the target, while a hot .38 special just punch through. As long we are talkin about fmj or lead bullets.
It's a good cartridge. I consider the .357 Magnum to be the same cartridge, as the .38 +P can go up almost as high in power as it, but then the cut down brass .38 Short can be low powered. So many options with .38!
Interesting that there wasn't much velocity difference with the longer barrel? The .38 short sounded much like a .32. Thanks for blowing up more water jugs in the name of research, great video.
This was good .. great testing .. I just ordered a bulk order of full wadcutters again as the last time i fired them was 2009 so i felt it's time to fire some more of those bullets and i do like them..very accurate out of my revolvers ..
I think an Airweight S&W snubby chambered for 6 rounds of .32 would sell well. It already has a number of lighter recoil options in the cartridges it will shoot including the .32 ACP.
@@Pointblank2U I wasn't aware that S&W ever made one of those. I know Charter makes a .32 H&R. From what I understand, the .32 mag in a snub nose is similar to a .38+P and a .327 in a snub nose is similar to a .357 mag....in snub noses, as far as ft lbs energy go. I would imagine the smaller bullet would reduce recoil a bit over the .38 calibers.
I snagged a real nice Rossi 3" or 4" in .32 a couple years ago at a gun show for $200. Looks like a scaled down J frame. It's a beautiful piece most likely unfired. I wish it was a 2". My wife is shy of the Model 642 I wish she would carry instead of her 8 shot .22 Lady Smith.
Found this video, Sam. Excellent! I have no problem with 11-12" of penetration with 38 short ammo -if a girl can handle the recoil better, and accurately hit the target with it
Still following your testing videos and replaying some of these older ones, I'm still shooting .38, not shooting as much though, since it isnt readily available., I am impressed with the advances your videos have taken with the a/v as well as the level of testing 'technology' although I do miss watching the water jugs explode in your face.
I had fun playing around with heavy bullets in .38 Special after finding a S&W Model 10 in .38 S&W that had been rechambered for .38 Special. Some of the original .38 S&W loads were just stupid-heavy for a dinky case, but darned if they didn't work. And I'd already tried some of the original Black Talons 180 gr in .357 through my Mag-Na-Ported 6" 686 (sounded brutal, but was remarkably easy to handle in that tuned revolver -- but folks at the range hated it). I forget the loads but I crammed some ridiculously heavy bullets ahead of Unique in .38 Special in the old Model 10. I kept the loads fairly light, around 500-600 fps like yours. The felt recoil was more pleasant than 125 gr bullets. Felt more like that shove you get from black powder. Come to think of it, I might even have loaded some using black powder or Pyrodex. I lost all my loading notebooks years ago. Good times.
I had an old nickel plated SW model 10 that had been rechambered from 38 SW to 38 special. It split the brass. It would even chamber a 357 Magnun round with no problem. I never attempted to fire one through it.
If anyone was wondering about the flinch when firing the .38 Short's through the 686, it was because it literally sounded and felt identical to a squib round I had before, which indicated that the sound and recoil is not much above just a primer going off.
I tried to buy .38 short today online. Out of around 10 different ammo suppliers, only one had any in stock and they were charging around $1.09 a round after I added shipping cost. That's pretty expensive for a practice round. Therefore, I'm shooting wadcutters for about $0.64 a round, still too expensive but at least they're available.
Yup, it's very hard to get short colt, and if available (such as Gunbroker) it's expensive. I finally bit the bullet and bought a box. Wadcutters work though, unless someone truly must have very low recoil for health reasons.
Watching this two years later... It's December 15, 2021. I noticed you posted 91 FPE for the CBC. In a later video when you test some 22LR, you get 70 FPE with some federal ammo that you used for your mag dump. You managed 80 FPE with either Velocitor or Interceptor, I forget which. I'm just making note of the fact that some pretty low powered rounds can be lethal. As for good enough for self defense, well that is the controversy.
Your two videos regarding alternatives to the traditional low recoil options (.22, other mouse calibers, etc), opened my mind. Most people at the range never discuss these alternatives. I've been searching for short and long colt for a while. They are really hard to find over the past two years. One can find short colt on Gunbroker, but it's overpriced.
You do good testing with your loads , i like that and the fact you use revolvers for your testing .. well done .. You have some great media to fire bullets into .. One way i do it too , fire them to see just what i have for results ..
This was the video I was looking for. Excellent information. I have a SP101 38/357 that I bought new in 1989 when they first came out. I was around 35 year old then and pushing 69 now and I'm looking for a lower recoil ammo in my SP101. My problem is finding them for sale anywhere.. They're really hard to find in my area.
Choosing what ammunition to use forces the shooter to carefully consider the advantages and disadvantages of the available options. As tempting as the low recoil plain lead bullet might be, they expose the shooter to greater levels of lead in the air and lead residue on the gun. In contrast, copper coated bullets are much cleaner. This is especially important for snub nose revolvers. These guns demand the most amount of practice to develop any proficiency. Therefore, shooting too many plain lead bullets is a bad idea. In fact, in your video, the 38 special "plus p" that you are using as a baseline, produced the least amount of visible smoke in the air. When you factor in the greater exposure to lead, the greater ammo cost, and the lesser ammo availability, the 38 special short starts to look very undesirable - regardless of how pleasant it may be to shoot !! That is why when I shoot a snub nose revolver, it is a steel j-frame loaded with the cleanest standard pressure, copper coated ammunition that is available. The heavier weight of a steel gun will aid in recoil control. For serious shooters of the snub nose revolver, copper coated bullets, from steel j-frames is the primary option to consider. It is more affordable, more readily available, and safer to shoot than plain lead bullets.
Iconoclast1962 No offense meant but you seem to consider incidental lead exposure as dangerous as radioactivity. One would expect that the Muzzle loading community&generations of shooters&handloaders before lead warnings came out in the '70's would have had mass die-offs, brain damage or debilitating health issues by their 40's....not to mention 150yrs of lead soldered waterlines.
I have an old S&W model 10-5 revolver I was wanting to teach my wife to shoot. I wanted to start her out with little recoil and move up to stronger cartridges? I was thinking I would need a .22 revolver so the recoil would be low. It looks like these 38 special shorts might fit the bill! Thanks for the vid. Tom
Appreciate the video. Argues the longer barrel might be optimal with the .38 short. But I looked online just now for .38 short and every website said "out of stock" or "discontinued." I'm an older man with some arthritis, so am weighing options. Went to a range last week and shot a 9mm for the first time, and it was tolerable, but I worry it wouldn't be very controllable in a dangerous situation, especially if firing single-handed.
GS, The Liberty Ammo Civil Defense are pricey, but they should make for superb lower recoil ammo given the ultra light bullet weights. Could make for a superb choice for snub nosed pistols when a projectile is geared for reduced risk of over penetration and recoil.
Great test. Thanks so much for sharing with us and I am going to pick up some shorts and let the wife try it and see if she wants to change out her old H&R 22 snubbie for the Taurus mod 85 lightweight snub. Happy New Year Sam!
I've had several old revolvers in 38 S&W, which is a very similar loading to the 38 Short Colt except with a .361 diameter bullet. I really like the short cartridge. The British put a 200 gr lead round nose in it going around 600fps. If you stick with 125 or 146 gr bullets you can easily get it up to 38 special velocities. It doesn't waste any powder doing it either. It's a very consistent and accurate cartridge. By all rights I should be loading short Colt too. I wonder how much case work would be involved in trimming back .38 special. I'm not sure if the wall thickness tapers and from what point.
When I noticed his figure about 6:00 in the upper right window out of the corner of my eye I wondered, what the heck is that, a bear?.😨..........Anyway, very scientific and useful. I have some familiarity with guns and the physics involved. An idea for future reference to put up the numbers in a chart or something. I can certainly see the lower velocity rounds for target practice and possibly self-defense.
@@GunSam If you want more penetration with the wadcutter go with a cast wadcutter with a solid base and push it as close to 1,000 fps as you can without pressure signs. Read an online report from a guy that worked up some loads with some guys that worked for Bill Ruger back in the late 70's early 80's. He said they were able to get close to 48" of penetration, with this load, in meat(before there was ballistic gel) and it cut a clean hole straight through the meat. The flat nose cuts the meat just like it cuts a paper target, it does not get diverted easily. This load would be a decent woods load for areas where there is a remote possibility of running into small black bear or pigs.
@@sokyoutdoors588 The thing is, high powered wadcutters completely take away any advantage to them except over FMJ. Wadcutters are good low recoil options and better than fmj for SD. But, by the time one is shooting a Buffalo Bore wadcutter, one might as well be shooting high powered +P hollowpoints.
In part 1 you suggested the recoil of the 38 Short Colt in your snubnose was like the recoil of a 22 but in part 2 you indicated 22 like recoil in your full size revolver.
The catch with 38 short cartridges is: People like Hodgdon's are still using the old betallic cartridge stats, which was thinner walled cases and using black powder propellants. Modern made 38 shorts, are made to full 38 special wall thicknesses. Basically, just a cut down 19 mm case. Because of this, Saami recommends loading 38 shorts to near Special pressures. Hodgdon's and others still use the OLD pressures tho which is about 1/3 of modern loads. Finding ACCURATE psi loads, is difficult. The CUP rating they give of between 13,500 CUP and 16,500 sounds impressive, but after converting to PSI you get 2000-4000 PSI..a good ways BELOW the SAMMI rating of 17,000.
I think the Super Police would be the most effective because of that tumbling. I have seen a 22lr gel test of different ammo. With hv hollowpoint. But the most nasty woundchannel was from a regular low powered target ammo that did tumble.
I have tested a couple of bullets in the 200 gr range. One was an actual 200 gr LRN handgun bullet which did not do well. The other was a 213 gr cast .35 Remington bullet. I pushed it at about 650 FPS and it tumbled really well, did a good job on my test.
I have planned on it for some time, but I can never find them anywhere other than online. Good thing is that I been using a lot of double ended wadcutters, so this gives be a great baseline for charge data.
I thought 38 Short couldn't be run in 38 Special revolvers. I'm not carrying a revolver, but have been looking to potentially get quieter rounds to shoot from a cowboy Single Action revolver. Just for fun only,...but I have sensitive hearing and a 38 special in a cowboy gun were louder than a 9mm pistol.
@@grandinquisitor1522 Thanks. Currently I have no revolvers to shoot anything out of, but it's good to know that 38 Short could be an option.....if I could actually find it, that is. :-)
Good stuff! & Aaah man, you just rebooted my penchant for surfing top-break revolvers (for elusive good order snubbies) on likes of Gun Broker. You are trending higher and higher on my wife's snit list Sir!
I plan to do the majority of chronographing in the snubby, and all of the ballistic testing to be through the snubby as well as this is what people really want to see, but I think I will include getting 4" chronograph readings just to get the information out there, but no ballistic testing of them in the 4". The BB and ARX came yesterday and they are just so weird. The Supervel comes next Thursday. The BB Tax-XP feels weird, i'm used to that dense nose heavy feel of lead, but the pure copper is long for caliber so it balances weird. The roll crimp is massive on them, both the std and +P. The ARX rounds had one thing I noticed right away, and that is that there is no roll crimp, they are taper crimped so when you try to load them, they stick a little bit. I will have to point that out when I shoot a video. I think the ARX would be an awesome choice for a high capacity .45 Auto as 14 rounds of 230 vs 14 rounds of 118 gr would shave off massive weight, but unless the ARX produce magic they might be a hard sell. They do have high velocity and low momentum going for them though, and this will certainly prevent over penetration. Anyhow, I will try to schedule in some testing and filming next week, but here in Michigan the weather is trying to kill me....I have rheumatoid arthritis and it cuts me to the bone and January is the coldest month here, usually around 20 degree highs. But I will do my bast to be punctual....Thanks again.
@@GunSam agree on all those points (ammo description). The couple of boxes of BB that I've played with had a huge concave crimp that seemingly conformed to the exaggerated cannelure. I worked up some Barnes components "analogues" with a heavy roll crimp snubbed up against, and dipping into, the inside leading edge of the cannelure. Results in no snag slick profile. That and the natural pointy-ness of the BB 110's lends itself to some exceptionally slick speedloader orient and drop action. On the ARX - also agree, "sticking" is a perfect description. I'd mentioned in an email my suspicions that the seating depth also contributes to the stickiness in that the brass mouth extends past part of the three flutes molded into the bullets ever so slightly and that section of brass in particular wants to catch on stuff a lot. I've loaded up quite a bit of the 86 gn versions (.357 mainly), and ensured that I didn't seat so deeply as too start to cover any of the flutes cuts at all, and I made sure to impart an exaggerated chamfer and deburr before the taper crimpping and it made them much more manageable/insertable. I hope to sort it out (ARX) as they sure seem like they could be an effective while still low recoil round. Winter: Work when your comfortable. No one wants Gun Sam Pneumonia man (except for perhaps the two trolls that thumb down every video). Happy and safe New Year's!
@@GunSam the BB rounds open magazine add gorgeous at .38 Special loadings in jugs and gel to my experimenting (1⅞" barreled j-frames). I never thought to put any through wood (ballistic box?) And catch them in hard barriers though. Inceptor load data/notes cautions that only light taper crimps should be used on ARX bullets as a roll crimp can (will) cut/snap the bullet at the crimp. An early experiment of mine with a Lee Factory Crimp die saw the tip break off an ARX bullet and careen so violently out the top that it put a dimple in my reloading room sheet rock ceiling.
@@ED-2.0.9. Just a note, I had some free time today so on a whim I bundled up and went out to the woods with the TAC-XP Standard and +P. I was impressed, it was one of the best videos I have ever shot, and both of the ammunition types delivered as good and better than rated. I think I will release it Tuesday morning!
@@greybone777 By the time it is going down the barrel and engaging rifling, that shouldn't be the issue. The long super police rounds apparently tumbled on impact, which was actually desired.
I can't seem to find the Magtech CBC shorts available ANYWHERE. All out of stock. Is there another similar type of round you'd recommend? Thanks in advance!
Magtech CBC Special Short is nothing but .38 Short Colt ammo. They market them as Special short so people know they can fire in a .38 Special revolver. Remington Wheelgun .38 Short Colt is the ammo probably most easily found.
Ask around the gun shops and range about persons who reload. Thats always a good place to start and you can also ask them to reduce load some ammo for you. Generally. All reloaders will be happy to help you.
@sam I have a 640 .357 but haven't used 357 yet. What 357 would you recommend that would still be controllable. I use Hogue Tamers on that revolvers. Thank you
@cliff deal You claim that the .38 short has the same POWER as 9x19. I just said that the 9x19 has even much more pressure than .38 special. Actually almost double the PSI! This has something to do with the build and thickness of the cartridge not the lenght or powder. For example the 45 super has the same size of 45 ACP and you could chamber it in a 45 ACP barrel but you couldnt load the 45 ACP cartridge with the same pressure. But the 9x19 was designed as a military (also for penetration) round and the more power dont result in better stopping power. With lead or fmj bullets I think its even better to have a slow bullet for that. Military and police always looking also for barrier penetration. That is something as a civilian you rather dont want!
@cliff deal That Video with the shorts is very interesting. And I thought years ago that the .38 special is much longer than needed. It was designed for black powder.The velocitys of .38 special are lower than fpr 9x19. You could built smaller snubbies with much shorter cylinders. Also the 9mm snubbies always have the long frame and cylinder of .357 mag. I know only one that build a revolver just for 9mm "Korth sky marshal" There you can see how much shorter it could be. They also never redesigned the .25 .32 auto with their semi rim. I think there is not enough money to be made out of it to get the cost for the development.
@cliff deal I thought you claimed the .38 short would perform the same as a 9mm? Now you are saying the 9 mm may be over powered. Those are two different claims.
Wow. I didn't know what to expect. I thought the CBC would fail mightily with the low energy numbers. But it didn't. I would love to know how the super police was able to tumble in wood. That blew my mind.
@@GunSam OK. That makes sense. Can you imagine the kind of buzz saw that would just tumble through wood? Not even .30 cal rifle bullets do that! They just drill in.
@@GunSam I had a thought about reloading your .38 Shorts. They might do well for launching the Hornady 110gr FTX projectiles. I think you can get more velocity and consistency without bringing the recoil up too much. 3.0gr of Titegroup might be about the load charge to get you into .380 ACP power levels and perhaps getting the projectile to go fast enough to open up a bit and get caught in the 3rd jug which seems to be a reasonable metric for a defense round.
@@Fudmottin I think 110 would probably do pretty well. I think the load data for .38 Short Colt is somewhere around 2.3 to 2.7 gr of Titegroup or something of that nature with a lead bullet. The 110 gr being seated less deep and it being jacketed probably would indicate about 3.0 grains of that powder. I would take a guess and say, 800 fps would be about the velocity I would expect with it on average, maybe 750 in the snub and 850 in the 4" or something along those lines.
@@GunSam I came back to this video and part one to remind myself of how those shorts did. I didn't find the FTX projectiles but the 110 gr GDHP SB was available. The real reason I'm commenting again here is that I caught something you said that I missed before. You said you felt a bit of the recoil from the 213 gr load through your finger. That suggests the chamber was slightly out of alignment and the torque on the cylinder got transmitted through the hand to the trigger. Another clue as to what is ailing your 342PD. I'm quite sure it is repairable and I hope you can find a local gunsmith to fix it (or just send it off to S&W with a detailed description of the problem).
I get 1250 fps with 38 short colt 125 grain reloads I make for my 357 Of course they would probably blow up a regular 38 short colt revolver but they work great in my colt 357 LOL It also surprised me a whole lot how accurate they were also all the way out to 100 yards
Just found your videos, very informative and straightforward. I'm looking for my first carry revolver, something with a 3 inch barrel any suggestions, in maybe .357.
Lots of things to consider. A 3" is good but your options for pocket carry or ankle carry are not there if you ever decide you want to carry that way so a 2" can have some advantages. After that i'd take into consideration how much you will be shooting it and how comfortable you are carrying it. Shooting lots of .357 Magnum rounds you will want to go with a steel revolver like a Ruger SP101, but if you want to carry easy but not shoot a lot of magnum ammo, a 3" LCR would be good. I know S&W has some 3" revolvers but they are usually variations of larger revolvers which can be hefty. A .327 Mag is good too with lots of ammo choices but ammo in .32 cal like .32 long, .32 H&R mag and .327 Mag are all harder to come by and cost more. You can always go with 9mm in a revolver but they can be finicky with ammo. I'd say a .357 gives you the most choices with little price for ammo.
I have seen Federal ammo marketed as low recoil but not Remington. From testing the Federal low recoil ammo what I have found that it's just hype as felt recoil felt the same to me as anything else.
Yes, .38 Long Colt, .38 Short Colt and the CBC short IS .38 Short Colt. The whole Special Short name is a simple way to let people know it can be fired in a .38 Special revolver. So any modern .38 Short Colt is fine.
If you keep shooting ammo shorter than your revolver chambers, you are risking leading the chambers up from having the bullet jump through free space until it reaches the beginning of the choke point of the cylinder until it reaches the forcing cone. After a steady diet of 38 short ,you will not be able to chamber 357 ammo without thoroughly cleaning the leading out of the cylinder. Take your 22 long rifle, and fire 100 22 shorts in it. Then tell me if you can chamber a 22 long rifle in it. If you can't handle the recoil, buy something in a smaller caliber. I learned this stuff from 45years of shooting and reloading revolvers.
I have done it though, lots of rounds through it and I can chamber .357 and .38 fine. Probably after hundreds of rounds without cleaning then it would be hard to chamber, but I actually clean my chambers so it's never a concern.
Its going to have a lot lower energy, probably about half that as a 9mm in a 4" barrel. If talking self defense, both will have similar results with a frontal thoracic shot, but if a side shot is all you have or a barrier is in the way, that wadcutter won't be very effective as where the 9mm would still go through and be effective.
While 3 or 4 .22's become more lethal than one .38 wadcutter, they do not have a greater chance to stop the threat. Percentages of chance to stop a threat do not increase with more shots, unless you're head shooting and possibly missing then finally hitting.
I checked in my Lee book and the Hornady site for load data and they both show only 93 gr and 135 gr lead bullets. Hornady's data is here: www.hodgdonreloading.com/data/pistol
Thanks for your video. It would be helpful when you are shooting through the chronograph not to have your back to the camera. I would have like to see the recoil in your hands while you were shooting, since that is the topic.
38 short vs 22 magnum. Besides similar recoil does the 22 magnum have higher velocities and therefore better terminal performance despite smaller caliber?
Depends on barrel length. In snub nose revolvers, you're looking at similar energy, however in 22 mag you're trying to expand the bullet nowhere near where the .358 diameter of the .38 short begins. But you might have more hydrostatic energy with the .22 mag. Its indeed an interesting argument.
@@bradleys2320 hard to say without finding tests. My guess would be with FMJ .22 mag vs .38 Short LRN, yes the .22 would penetrate more. With HP .22 mag vs .38 short LRN, maybe not.
Thank you so much for this video. I just had fusion on 2 levels in my neck and will be restricted on recoil and shooting for 9 months to a year. Just ordered 2 boxes of the .38 Special short from Midway for my LCR. You just helped immensely with anxiety I had over being able to protect my family and me. As you said, .35 caliber hole and decent penetration beats a .22.
Thanks for watching. This ammo is definitely low recoil, it's like shooting a cap gun.
How'd it turn out with those loads? I did the same thing about 20 years ago after my neck and back were broken in a car wreck. For years I had to switch to lighter loads with heavier bullets, and really enjoyed shooting black powder. The slower impulse was more like a shove than snapping recoil, much easier on the neck while it was healing.
The Paralex View They worked well. They have almost no recoil even in my LCR. I’m cleard from the surgery now but my wife loves shooting them in her Taurus 605.
@@GunSam Thx again for doing a video on this. I subbed!
@@GunSam Which do you think would be best for my old hands...lol The 3032 TOMCAT INOX? Or the SW 637 Airweight? My arthritis hates me...especially living in Michigan winters! lol Or Taurus 856? I'm looking for less recoil & accuracy.....like everyone else I guess...lol I also found a Girsan MC 14T... I'm not familiar with this one...are you? It's a tip up gun...thats about all I know. lol
If anyone was wondering, I did use a recoil calculator to get some numbers on these different cartridges in my revolver. As a baseline, +P off the shelf ammo in the 125 gr variety, will give about 8.5 to 10 ft lbs of recoil energy. In comparison, the .38 CBS SPL Short gave a recoil energy in the snub nose revolver of about 3.5 ft lbs. The 148 gr Wadcutter was about 5.5 ft lbs recoil, and the 213 gr "Super Police" gave about 8.5 ft lbs recoil. The Super Police was on the low end of standard recoil, the Wadcutter was much lower, and the .38 CBC SPL Short was significantly lower in recoil energy.
AND, the recoil energy of the .38 CBC in the 686, was just over 1 ft lb felt recoil. I typed it right.....One foot pound felt recoil. In comparison, a full house 158 gr .357 Magnum in that revolver is about 7.5 ft lbs felt recoil.
Where'bouts would a Rem/Win 130 gn FMJ Round Nose's recoil impulse land on the ft lbs list, pls? (And gob smacked at the CBC Shorts in the 686)(!!!)
@@ED-2.0.9. They would be very close to about what the 148 gr wadcutters would be.
GS, Your presentation displayed why the old .38 S&W was popular through much of the 20th century. Smith kept producing revolvers for that round , such as the Terrier M-33, up to the 1970's. When I was a reloader, I cooked up some special reverse facing full wad cutter bullet loads in both .38 Special and .38 Long cases. They weren't too accurate over 25 yards, but then again I wasn't concerned with what these deep hollow points would do on a paper bulls eye target were I ever forced to use them.
excellent video series on softer 38 ammo. for civilian defense purposes, especially more vulnerable seniors, women and physically less abled folks, consistent hits with softer ammo, even 22lr, always trumps misses with harder hitting rounds.
Thanks!
Excellent demonstration and conversation. I've loaded 38 special 110 gr short barrel gold dots with 2.7 gr of titegroup in an airweight smith for an 8 year old girl. Let me tell you, this young lady is an excellent marksman. Her father glows with pride.
Thank you. That's some low charge for sure! I like 4.9 gr of TG with the 125 gr Speer bullet, GD or TMJ.
Thanks for sharing different options for 38 special. Always looking for something different or better. Especially in my snub nose which shoots only standard velocity ammo.
I just got an order today, and in it are some Buffalo Bore standard pressure 110 gr ammo. The rated velocity they quote in a 2" is the same velocity as I get in a 2" with Critical Defense 110 gr+P. For a standard pressure, that's really good.
You really can't go wrong with Hydra Shoks in any caliber.
Good information. Decided to get my wife a 38 special instead of the 22 magnum, knowing that there are low recoil ammo options for the 38! Thank...appreciate your video.
22 magnum from 2 inch has not more velocity than 22lr. its nonesense. A good option between that two would be a .32 long or 32 H&R.
Excellent presentation. You've got me convinced that I should probably be shooting the .38 short. However, as I commented on your last video, it doesn't matter much what is "best" for people with physical limitations; rather what is available is much more important. JMO.
Thank you. And I get what you mean too. I am only 40 years old but have rheumatoid arthristis along with spondylitis. While I can still handle most recoil fine as i'm not old, I still get a bruised feeling in my hand for 3 days from moderate recoil and I cannot imagine as I age this getting better.
Excellent video 👍 I like the 148 wadcutter.
Thank you
Very interesting results especially with the wood. Appreciate all your efforts
Thanks for watching! I think what probably really happened with the wood, is that the whole board cracked upon impact, and then the bullet sort of just shifted in there as I picked it up.
MUCH APPRECIATED SAM.
YOU DO SUPER PRESENTATIONS AND WE LEARN SO MUCH FROM YOUR TREMENDOUS KNOWLEDGE BASE. THE 642 WILL LIKE THESE MORE EASILY DIGESTED WADCUTTER ROUNDS TOO.
You agree with Paul Harrell it seems, that for personal defense I need to have a gun and ammo that I can #1 hit the target with, preferably every shot. For me that means a gun that I can run 100% waking from a dead sleep, like my revolvers, loaded with ammo that I can shoot fast and accurately. IMO, many gun so called experts are way off base insisting that only a .45 or a 9mm is adequate for stopping a bad guy. I'm over 60 and for me recoil is a big deal. And I grew up on revolvers. For many revolvers are the ticket.
My 30 year old stainless snubby handles +p 38 spcl. fine, for me that is. I recently bought a LCR which weighs a half pound less, at 14 oz. The difference in my shooting ability with this latest greatest LCR is quite profound. For carry I'll probably stick with non +p ammo for now, maybe even wadcutters. Your videos are useful, thank you. I can relate to your methods and you bologna/jug setup. If I want to see jello shot Lucky Gunner does a good job with that. I'm not criticizing that BTW.
BTW, Lucky Gunner recommends for new shooters the 38 spcl. LCR using wad utters. Hey...maybe they got that from you!
The 38 short or short colt was used for many years in the Colt Police revolver with a 3, 4, 5 inch barrel. Smart cops!
Yes and the weak load maybe is even more effective because it dumps more energy in the target, while a hot .38 special just punch through. As long we are talkin about fmj or lead bullets.
Love a 38 more videos the better
It's a good cartridge. I consider the .357 Magnum to be the same cartridge, as the .38 +P can go up almost as high in power as it, but then the cut down brass .38 Short can be low powered. So many options with .38!
Interesting that there wasn't much velocity difference with the longer barrel? The .38 short sounded much like a .32. Thanks for blowing up more water jugs in the name of research, great video.
The velocity was pretty on par with most other .38 Special ammo velocity loss between a 2" and 4".
This was good .. great testing .. I just ordered a bulk order of full wadcutters again as the last time i fired them was 2009 so i felt it's time to fire some more of those bullets and i do like them..very accurate out of my revolvers ..
I think an Airweight S&W snubby chambered for 6 rounds of .32 would sell well. It already has a number of lighter recoil options in the cartridges it will shoot including the .32 ACP.
The LCR would have to be the option for something like that, as there's a .327 Mag version.
I was fortunate enough to buy two of these a couple of years ago. S&W 432PD in 32 H&R Magnum. They can also shoot S&W Long and S&W Short and 32 acp.
@@Pointblank2U I wasn't aware that S&W ever made one of those. I know Charter makes a .32 H&R. From what I understand, the .32 mag in a snub nose is similar to a .38+P and a .327 in a snub nose is similar to a .357 mag....in snub noses, as far as ft lbs energy go. I would imagine the smaller bullet would reduce recoil a bit over the .38 calibers.
@@GunSam ua-cam.com/video/iheGb235D2M/v-deo.html
I snagged a real nice Rossi 3" or 4" in .32 a couple years ago at a gun show for $200. Looks like a scaled down J frame. It's a beautiful piece most likely unfired. I wish it was a 2". My wife is shy of the Model 642 I wish she would carry instead of her 8 shot .22 Lady Smith.
Found this video, Sam. Excellent! I have no problem with 11-12" of penetration with 38 short ammo -if a girl can handle the recoil better, and accurately hit the target with it
Still following your testing videos and replaying some of these older ones, I'm still shooting .38, not shooting as much though, since it isnt readily available., I am impressed with the advances your videos have taken with the a/v as well as the level of testing 'technology' although I do miss watching the water jugs explode in your face.
I had fun playing around with heavy bullets in .38 Special after finding a S&W Model 10 in .38 S&W that had been rechambered for .38 Special. Some of the original .38 S&W loads were just stupid-heavy for a dinky case, but darned if they didn't work. And I'd already tried some of the original Black Talons 180 gr in .357 through my Mag-Na-Ported 6" 686 (sounded brutal, but was remarkably easy to handle in that tuned revolver -- but folks at the range hated it). I forget the loads but I crammed some ridiculously heavy bullets ahead of Unique in .38 Special in the old Model 10. I kept the loads fairly light, around 500-600 fps like yours. The felt recoil was more pleasant than 125 gr bullets. Felt more like that shove you get from black powder. Come to think of it, I might even have loaded some using black powder or Pyrodex. I lost all my loading notebooks years ago. Good times.
I had an old nickel plated SW model 10 that had been rechambered from 38 SW to 38 special. It split the brass. It would even chamber a 357 Magnun round with no problem. I never attempted to fire one through it.
If anyone was wondering about the flinch when firing the .38 Short's through the 686, it was because it literally sounded and felt identical to a squib round I had before, which indicated that the sound and recoil is not much above just a primer going off.
I tried to buy .38 short today online. Out of around 10 different ammo suppliers, only one had any in stock and they were charging around $1.09 a round after I added shipping cost. That's pretty expensive for a practice round. Therefore, I'm shooting wadcutters for about $0.64 a round, still too expensive but at least they're available.
Yup, it's very hard to get short colt, and if available (such as Gunbroker) it's expensive. I finally bit the bullet and bought a box. Wadcutters work though, unless someone truly must have very low recoil for health reasons.
Watching this two years later... It's December 15, 2021. I noticed you posted 91 FPE for the CBC. In a later video when you test some 22LR, you get 70 FPE with some federal ammo that you used for your mag dump. You managed 80 FPE with either Velocitor or Interceptor, I forget which. I'm just making note of the fact that some pretty low powered rounds can be lethal. As for good enough for self defense, well that is the controversy.
WHAT AN OUTSTANDING INFORMATIVE VIDEO. EXACTLY THE INFORMATION I WAS LOOKING FOR.
Short CBC .38 ogival lead ammunition is sold in Brazil as "treina": Specifies for target shooting.
Your two videos regarding alternatives to the traditional low recoil options (.22, other mouse calibers, etc), opened my mind. Most people at the range never discuss these alternatives. I've been searching for short and long colt for a while. They are really hard to find over the past two years. One can find short colt on Gunbroker, but it's overpriced.
I hear some people just chop down .38 Special brass and then load them into .38 Short Colt.
@@GunSam Thanks, I know reloading is a big option. I haven't gotten into it yet.
You do good testing with your loads , i like that and the fact you use revolvers for your testing .. well done .. You have some great media to fire bullets into .. One way i do it too , fire them to see just what i have for results ..
This was the video I was looking for. Excellent information. I have a SP101 38/357 that I bought new in 1989 when they first came out. I was around 35 year old then and pushing 69 now and I'm looking for a lower recoil ammo in my SP101. My problem is finding them for sale anywhere.. They're really hard to find in my area.
This is the issue. I did find .38 short colt on Gunbroker, and bought a box. It's expensive though.
Choosing what ammunition to use forces the shooter to
carefully consider the advantages and disadvantages of
the available options.
As tempting as the low recoil plain lead bullet might be, they
expose the shooter to greater levels of lead in the air and lead
residue on the gun. In contrast, copper coated bullets are
much cleaner.
This is especially important for snub nose revolvers.
These guns demand the most amount of practice to
develop any proficiency. Therefore, shooting too
many plain lead bullets is a bad idea.
In fact, in your video, the 38 special "plus p" that you are using
as a baseline, produced the least amount of visible smoke in
the air.
When you factor in the greater exposure to lead, the greater ammo
cost, and the lesser ammo availability, the 38 special short starts to look
very undesirable - regardless of how pleasant it may be to shoot !!
That is why when I shoot a snub nose revolver, it is a steel j-frame
loaded with the cleanest standard pressure, copper coated
ammunition that is available. The heavier weight of a steel gun
will aid in recoil control.
For serious shooters of the snub nose revolver, copper coated
bullets, from steel j-frames is the primary option to consider.
It is more affordable, more readily available, and safer to shoot
than plain lead bullets.
Iconoclast1962 No offense meant but you seem to consider incidental lead exposure as dangerous as radioactivity. One would expect that the Muzzle loading community&generations of shooters&handloaders before lead warnings came out in the '70's would have had mass die-offs, brain damage or debilitating health issues by their 40's....not to mention 150yrs of lead soldered waterlines.
If that concerns you I can suggest powder coating which gives the best of both worlds.
There are copper plated wadcutters from Precision One, which I still have a handful of. That's a good intermediate option.
I have an old S&W model 10-5 revolver I was wanting to teach my wife to shoot. I wanted to start her out with little recoil and move up to stronger cartridges? I was thinking I would need a .22 revolver so the recoil would be low. It looks like these 38 special shorts might fit the bill! Thanks for the vid. Tom
Thanks for watching!
When the video hit 6:09 I thought a bear was coming over the top of the hill. Caught my attention.
I have never shot a 38 that light .. I was looking at a K , L , N frame .. they are rare & cost a lot , I like the Night Guard S&Ws .
Thanks for posting this excellent comparison.
Appreciate the video. Argues the longer barrel might be optimal with the .38 short. But I looked online just now for .38 short and every website said "out of stock" or "discontinued."
I'm an older man with some arthritis, so am weighing options. Went to a range last week and shot a 9mm for the first time, and it was tolerable, but I worry it wouldn't be very controllable in a dangerous situation, especially if firing single-handed.
I'd order .38 wadcutters, which are able to be found.
GS, The Liberty Ammo Civil Defense are pricey, but they should make for superb lower recoil ammo given the ultra light bullet weights. Could make for a superb choice for snub nosed pistols when a projectile is geared for reduced risk of over penetration and recoil.
Thats..... good stuff. Love the wadcutters! GO WINGS!!
Great test. Thanks so much for sharing with us and I am going to pick up some shorts and let the wife try it and see if she wants to change out her old H&R 22 snubbie for the Taurus mod 85 lightweight snub. Happy New Year Sam!
Thank you. Hopefully she will like them.
Nice study! Good to see the results.
I've had several old revolvers in 38 S&W, which is a very similar loading to the 38 Short Colt except with a .361 diameter bullet. I really like the short cartridge. The British put a 200 gr lead round nose in it going around 600fps. If you stick with 125 or 146 gr bullets you can easily get it up to 38 special velocities. It doesn't waste any powder doing it either. It's a very consistent and accurate cartridge. By all rights I should be loading short Colt too. I wonder how much case work would be involved in trimming back .38 special. I'm not sure if the wall thickness tapers and from what point.
Steinel Ammo loads .38S&W in the old British military load, 200 grain bullet. I've not shot it yet but have some.
I like the idea of 38super +P 213grn snubie rounds!!
When I noticed his figure about 6:00 in the upper right window out of the corner of my eye I wondered, what the heck is that, a bear?.😨..........Anyway, very scientific and useful. I have some familiarity with guns and the physics involved. An idea for future reference to put up the numbers in a chart or something. I can certainly see the lower velocity rounds for target practice and possibly self-defense.
Sounds like the LWC is the best choice for less recoil, less cost, and performance. Sounds like the perfect low recoil trifecta.
Great info. Results were interesting
The wad cutter would work good and they are cheaper too. I have used them.
I just need to get into loading the Hollow Base backwards, that might get interesting.
@@GunSam If you want more penetration with the wadcutter go with a cast wadcutter with a solid base and push it as close to 1,000 fps as you can without pressure signs.
Read an online report from a guy that worked up some loads with some guys that worked for Bill Ruger back in the late 70's early 80's. He said they were able to get close to 48" of penetration, with this load, in meat(before there was ballistic gel) and it cut a clean hole straight through the meat.
The flat nose cuts the meat just like it cuts a paper target, it does not get diverted easily. This load would be a decent woods load for areas where there is a remote possibility of running into small black bear or pigs.
@@sokyoutdoors588 The thing is, high powered wadcutters completely take away any advantage to them except over FMJ. Wadcutters are good low recoil options and better than fmj for SD. But, by the time one is shooting a Buffalo Bore wadcutter, one might as well be shooting high powered +P hollowpoints.
Great testing and clarification from the comments and in part 1 what can be used in lieu of .38 special ammo without issues and for reloading.
thanks!
@@GunSam you're welcome
Very informative. Thanks for the upload.
Thanks for watching!
Love your videos. Keep em coming!
Thank you.
In part 1 you suggested the recoil of the 38 Short Colt in your snubnose was like the recoil of a 22 but in part 2 you indicated 22 like recoil in your full size revolver.
.22 is .22, not going to recoil more or really less no matter the gun
The catch with 38 short cartridges is: People like Hodgdon's are still using the old betallic cartridge stats, which was thinner walled cases and using black powder propellants. Modern made 38 shorts, are made to full 38 special wall thicknesses. Basically, just a cut down 19 mm case. Because of this, Saami recommends loading 38 shorts to near Special pressures. Hodgdon's and others still use the OLD pressures tho which is about 1/3 of modern loads. Finding ACCURATE psi loads, is difficult. The CUP rating they give of between 13,500 CUP and 16,500 sounds impressive, but after converting to PSI you get 2000-4000 PSI..a good ways BELOW the SAMMI rating of 17,000.
I think the Super Police would be the most effective because of that tumbling. I have seen a 22lr gel test of different ammo. With hv hollowpoint. But the most nasty woundchannel was from a regular low powered target ammo that did tumble.
I have tested a couple of bullets in the 200 gr range. One was an actual 200 gr LRN handgun bullet which did not do well. The other was a 213 gr cast .35 Remington bullet. I pushed it at about 650 FPS and it tumbled really well, did a good job on my test.
These make excellent hunting loads for small game like squirrel rabbit racoon and any other smaller game animals at a reasonable range .
Try some swayed hollow base wadcutters loaded backwards. Used to get pretty good expansion.
I have planned on it for some time, but I can never find them anywhere other than online. Good thing is that I been using a lot of double ended wadcutters, so this gives be a great baseline for charge data.
Inadequate penetration IMO. Load 'em head first says I. :D
I thought 38 Short couldn't be run in 38 Special revolvers. I'm not carrying a revolver, but have been looking to potentially get quieter rounds to shoot from a cowboy Single Action revolver. Just for fun only,...but I have sensitive hearing and a 38 special in a cowboy gun were louder than a 9mm pistol.
It's basically the same specs as .38 special just shorter and less powerful
@@GunSam How much quieter [less blast] is there with the 38 Short?
The .38S&W is the one you don't want to fire in .38spl.
.38 short colt was developed into .38 short colt, which then .38 special developed from. Any .38 special can shoot all of them.
@@grandinquisitor1522 Thanks. Currently I have no revolvers to shoot anything out of, but it's good to know that 38 Short could be an option.....if I could actually find it, that is. :-)
Good stuff! & Aaah man, you just rebooted my penchant for surfing top-break revolvers (for elusive good order snubbies) on likes of Gun Broker. You are trending higher and higher on my wife's snit list Sir!
I think I just put 2 and 2 together with your username ;) Will have some great tests coming up.
I plan to do the majority of chronographing in the snubby, and all of the ballistic testing to be through the snubby as well as this is what people really want to see, but I think I will include getting 4" chronograph readings just to get the information out there, but no ballistic testing of them in the 4". The BB and ARX came yesterday and they are just so weird. The Supervel comes next Thursday. The BB Tax-XP feels weird, i'm used to that dense nose heavy feel of lead, but the pure copper is long for caliber so it balances weird. The roll crimp is massive on them, both the std and +P. The ARX rounds had one thing I noticed right away, and that is that there is no roll crimp, they are taper crimped so when you try to load them, they stick a little bit. I will have to point that out when I shoot a video. I think the ARX would be an awesome choice for a high capacity .45 Auto as 14 rounds of 230 vs 14 rounds of 118 gr would shave off massive weight, but unless the ARX produce magic they might be a hard sell. They do have high velocity and low momentum going for them though, and this will certainly prevent over penetration. Anyhow, I will try to schedule in some testing and filming next week, but here in Michigan the weather is trying to kill me....I have rheumatoid arthritis and it cuts me to the bone and January is the coldest month here, usually around 20 degree highs. But I will do my bast to be punctual....Thanks again.
@@GunSam agree on all those points (ammo description). The couple of boxes of BB that I've played with had a huge concave crimp that seemingly conformed to the exaggerated cannelure. I worked up some Barnes components "analogues" with a heavy roll crimp snubbed up against, and dipping into, the inside leading edge of the cannelure. Results in no snag slick profile. That and the natural pointy-ness of the BB 110's lends itself to some exceptionally slick speedloader orient and drop action.
On the ARX - also agree, "sticking" is a perfect description. I'd mentioned in an email my suspicions that the seating depth also contributes to the stickiness in that the brass mouth extends past part of the three flutes molded into the bullets ever so slightly and that section of brass in particular wants to catch on stuff a lot. I've loaded up quite a bit of the 86 gn versions (.357 mainly), and ensured that I didn't seat so deeply as too start to cover any of the flutes cuts at all, and I made sure to impart an exaggerated chamfer and deburr before the taper crimpping and it made them much more manageable/insertable. I hope to sort it out (ARX) as they sure seem like they could be an effective while still low recoil round.
Winter: Work when your comfortable. No one wants Gun Sam Pneumonia man (except for perhaps the two trolls that thumb down every video). Happy and safe New Year's!
@@GunSam the BB rounds open magazine add gorgeous at .38 Special loadings in jugs and gel to my experimenting (1⅞" barreled j-frames). I never thought to put any through wood (ballistic box?) And catch them in hard barriers though.
Inceptor load data/notes cautions that only light taper crimps should be used on ARX bullets as a roll crimp can (will) cut/snap the bullet at the crimp. An early experiment of mine with a Lee Factory Crimp die saw the tip break off an ARX bullet and careen so violently out the top that it put a dimple in my reloading room sheet rock ceiling.
@@ED-2.0.9. Just a note, I had some free time today so on a whim I bundled up and went out to the woods with the TAC-XP Standard and +P. I was impressed, it was one of the best videos I have ever shot, and both of the ammunition types delivered as good and better than rated. I think I will release it Tuesday morning!
Interesting how the "Super Police" was sideways in a block of wood.
Because the bullet isn't properly entering the forcing cone.
@@greybone777 By the time it is going down the barrel and engaging rifling, that shouldn't be the issue. The long super police rounds apparently tumbled on impact, which was actually desired.
I can't seem to find the Magtech CBC shorts available ANYWHERE. All out of stock. Is there another similar type of round you'd recommend? Thanks in advance!
Magtech CBC Special Short is nothing but .38 Short Colt ammo. They market them as Special short so people know they can fire in a .38 Special revolver. Remington Wheelgun .38 Short Colt is the ammo probably most easily found.
@@GunSam FYI, it's next to impossible to find both, including short colt. Only really Gunbroker and overpriced.
I've been trying to figure out which 38 ammo low recoil would be for my taurus 357 605 I'm a first time shooter
Easiest to get, available and cheap is wadcutters.
Ask around the gun shops and range about persons who reload. Thats always a good place to start and you can also ask them to reduce load some ammo for you. Generally. All reloaders will be happy to help you.
Why would you buy a 357 if you wanted low 🤔 recoil?
@@greybone777 i shoot 38 ammo out of my 357 i prefer revolvers but being since my job does not allow revolvers i had to buy 9mm
So in plain English, from 'best to worst' in order, what would the different loads, grain weights, FPS's be?
38 short colt..4 grains Universal, 105 grain SWC, average 1050 FPS through a 5 inch barrel, 257 foot pounds of pressure.
@sam I have a 640 .357 but haven't used 357 yet. What 357 would you recommend that would still be controllable. I use Hogue Tamers on that revolvers. Thank you
Hey Sam, any idea if you could +P the Super Police....maybe using .357mag casing?
A 38 short in the right spot would stop an attacker.
@cliff deal No never 9x19 is even more powerfull than .38 special because its loaded with much more pressure!
@cliff deal You claim that the .38 short has the same POWER as 9x19. I just said that the 9x19 has even much more pressure than .38 special. Actually almost double the PSI! This has something to do with the build and thickness of the cartridge not the lenght or powder. For example the 45 super has the same size of 45 ACP and you could chamber it in a 45 ACP barrel but you couldnt load the 45 ACP cartridge with the same pressure. But the 9x19 was designed as a military (also for penetration) round and the more power dont result in better stopping power. With lead or fmj bullets I think its even better to have a slow bullet for that. Military and police always looking also for barrier penetration. That is something as a civilian you rather dont want!
@cliff deal That Video with the shorts is very interesting. And I thought years ago that the .38 special is much longer than needed. It was designed for black powder.The velocitys of .38 special are lower than fpr 9x19. You could built smaller snubbies with much shorter cylinders. Also the 9mm snubbies always have the long frame and cylinder of .357 mag. I know only one that build a revolver just for 9mm "Korth sky marshal" There you can see how much shorter it could be. They also never redesigned the .25 .32 auto with their semi rim. I think there is not enough money to be made out of it to get the cost for the development.
@cliff deal Not even close man. The short is something like 100 FPE, and a standard 9 mm is like 300-350 FPE. Way higher velocity.
@cliff deal I thought you claimed the .38 short would perform the same as a 9mm? Now you are saying the 9 mm may be over powered. Those are two different claims.
Wow. I didn't know what to expect. I thought the CBC would fail mightily with the low energy numbers. But it didn't. I would love to know how the super police was able to tumble in wood. That blew my mind.
Looks like it cracked the board and then just shifted down the crack in the wood.
@@GunSam OK. That makes sense. Can you imagine the kind of buzz saw that would just tumble through wood? Not even .30 cal rifle bullets do that! They just drill in.
@@GunSam I had a thought about reloading your .38 Shorts. They might do well for launching the Hornady 110gr FTX projectiles. I think you can get more velocity and consistency without bringing the recoil up too much. 3.0gr of Titegroup might be about the load charge to get you into .380 ACP power levels and perhaps getting the projectile to go fast enough to open up a bit and get caught in the 3rd jug which seems to be a reasonable metric for a defense round.
@@Fudmottin I think 110 would probably do pretty well. I think the load data for .38 Short Colt is somewhere around 2.3 to 2.7 gr of Titegroup or something of that nature with a lead bullet. The 110 gr being seated less deep and it being jacketed probably would indicate about 3.0 grains of that powder. I would take a guess and say, 800 fps would be about the velocity I would expect with it on average, maybe 750 in the snub and 850 in the 4" or something along those lines.
@@GunSam I came back to this video and part one to remind myself of how those shorts did. I didn't find the FTX projectiles but the 110 gr GDHP SB was available. The real reason I'm commenting again here is that I caught something you said that I missed before. You said you felt a bit of the recoil from the 213 gr load through your finger. That suggests the chamber was slightly out of alignment and the torque on the cylinder got transmitted through the hand to the trigger. Another clue as to what is ailing your 342PD. I'm quite sure it is repairable and I hope you can find a local gunsmith to fix it (or just send it off to S&W with a detailed description of the problem).
I get 1250 fps with 38 short colt 125 grain reloads I make for my 357
Of course they would probably blow up a regular 38 short colt revolver but they work great in my colt 357 LOL
It also surprised me a whole lot how accurate they were also all the way out to 100 yards
Lol, doesn't count as a .38 short colt if supped up to .38 special +P+ or .357 light.
Auuuugh I can't find wadcutters anywhere in my area
Can you purchase them online? If so Lucky Gunner and MidwayUsa have Fiocchi for $18 or $19 per box. Shipping would probably run $10 on average.
@@GunSam Those are now $34. I know, I bought some last night 🤣
I have a 442 and run 158 JHPs through it without a problem
The Germans in WW 2 complained about the 200 grain bullet used by the Brits. Look it up. Buy the way were the wad cutters loaded in a short?
Just found your videos, very informative and straightforward. I'm looking for my first carry revolver, something with a 3 inch barrel any suggestions, in maybe .357.
Lots of things to consider. A 3" is good but your options for pocket carry or ankle carry are not there if you ever decide you want to carry that way so a 2" can have some advantages. After that i'd take into consideration how much you will be shooting it and how comfortable you are carrying it. Shooting lots of .357 Magnum rounds you will want to go with a steel revolver like a Ruger SP101, but if you want to carry easy but not shoot a lot of magnum ammo, a 3" LCR would be good. I know S&W has some 3" revolvers but they are usually variations of larger revolvers which can be hefty. A .327 Mag is good too with lots of ammo choices but ammo in .32 cal like .32 long, .32 H&R mag and .327 Mag are all harder to come by and cost more. You can always go with 9mm in a revolver but they can be finicky with ammo. I'd say a .357 gives you the most choices with little price for ammo.
Thanks
En México el 38 short ya no es comercial
Remington also make a line of reduced recoil ammo.
I have seen Federal ammo marketed as low recoil but not Remington. From testing the Federal low recoil ammo what I have found that it's just hype as felt recoil felt the same to me as anything else.
@@GunSam
The Remington is good stuff. They do pistol and rifle.
Hold on... You can shoot the 38 CBC short in a 38 special gun?
Yes, .38 Long Colt, .38 Short Colt and the CBC short IS .38 Short Colt. The whole Special Short name is a simple way to let people know it can be fired in a .38 Special revolver. So any modern .38 Short Colt is fine.
I've looked into it since my comment... I definitely need to find me some 38 short brass or an easy way to cut down .38 SPL.
I’ve never heard of 38 short. I’ve shot some 38 smith and Wesson.
What kind of penetration do 500-600 fps give?
This video will show about what to expect: ua-cam.com/video/wrgkaP7FjlM/v-deo.html
What about .38 Long Colt from Black Hills, at 650 FPS 158 grains? I can't find Short Colt in stock.
If you keep shooting ammo shorter than your revolver chambers, you are risking leading the chambers up from having the bullet jump through free space until it reaches the beginning of the choke point of the cylinder until it reaches the forcing cone. After a steady diet of 38 short ,you will not be able to chamber 357 ammo without thoroughly cleaning the leading out of the cylinder. Take your 22 long rifle, and fire 100 22 shorts in it. Then tell me if you can chamber a 22 long rifle in it. If you can't handle the recoil, buy something in a smaller caliber. I learned this stuff from 45years of shooting and reloading revolvers.
I have done it though, lots of rounds through it and I can chamber .357 and .38 fine. Probably after hundreds of rounds without cleaning then it would be hard to chamber, but I actually clean my chambers so it's never a concern.
How does the 148 LWC in the 340PD compare to say a standard pressure 115 gr 9mm in a Glock 19?
Its going to have a lot lower energy, probably about half that as a 9mm in a 4" barrel. If talking self defense, both will have similar results with a frontal thoracic shot, but if a side shot is all you have or a barrier is in the way, that wadcutter won't be very effective as where the 9mm would still go through and be effective.
And I do more damage per round yes but when you can put three or four 22s is in the same area they'll do more
While 3 or 4 .22's become more lethal than one .38 wadcutter, they do not have a greater chance to stop the threat. Percentages of chance to stop a threat do not increase with more shots, unless you're head shooting and possibly missing then finally hitting.
Would you happen to know where to get load data for the 38 short colt? Was thinking of loading some for my kids to shoot.
I checked in my Lee book and the Hornady site for load data and they both show only 93 gr and 135 gr lead bullets. Hornady's data is here: www.hodgdonreloading.com/data/pistol
Considering the CBC round is so slow is leading a problem?
Never found standard .38 special rounds high recoil. What am I doing wrong?
I'm not sure exactly what you are asking
Have you fired them out of an aluminum airweight revolver (S&W 642/Ruger LCR)?
so a .38 short wadcutter would be good.
Thanks for your video. It would be helpful when you are shooting through the chronograph not to have your back to the camera. I would have like to see the recoil in your hands while you were shooting, since that is the topic.
This video is over 5 years old. Perhaps you should know that.
Can you say the msrp of the different ammo in the future please
Done any tests with multiple projectile loads?
I have not tried any yet.
Are 38 shorts still sold?
where the hell you get all those milk gugs
Has anyone tried that with CFE pistol?
38 short vs 22 magnum. Besides similar recoil does the 22 magnum have higher velocities and therefore better terminal performance despite smaller caliber?
Depends on barrel length. In snub nose revolvers, you're looking at similar energy, however in 22 mag you're trying to expand the bullet nowhere near where the .358 diameter of the .38 short begins. But you might have more hydrostatic energy with the .22 mag. Its indeed an interesting argument.
@@GunSam is it safe to say that a 22 magnum will penetrate significantly better than a 38 short?
@@bradleys2320 hard to say without finding tests. My guess would be with FMJ .22 mag vs .38 Short LRN, yes the .22 would penetrate more. With HP .22 mag vs .38 short LRN, maybe not.
7 yards
try 50 mate
Sounds like a cap gun
Lame damm