So glad you did a video on this! Thank you! Arthritis has me looking for a handgun I can operate on my own...that won't kill my hands every time I fire! lol
@@GunSam Another advantage of using your .38 special or .357 magnum revolver with the loads you explained as a low recoil option is that the trigger pull of the .22 caliber revolver would be a heavier pull than on the .38/.357 revolvers as I understand it. My wife and daughter like the Federal 110 gr Hydra-Shok standard pressure low recoil personal defense load in their revolvers. If it wouldn't be too much trouble would you please list a link to a calculator for determining recoil impulse. P.S., my uncle owned an S&W .38 S&W break top five shot revolver that was his home defense weapon.
This is the one benefit revolvers will always have over semi-autos! No need to change springs or anything. Just make sure the cartridge is the right diameter and proper pressure range!
Hey Sam; What I think would be really interesting is to investigate factors for low noise loadings. Slow powder v.s. fast powder, heavy bullet v.s. light bullet, is it always the lowest velocity etc. It is the kind of thing that might turn out to be more complicated and interesting than it might appear at first blush.
Thanks for posting this valuable information. These options may be also be relevant to shooters that can tolerate high recoil, since they facilitate faster follow-up shots in self defense situations. Looking forward to Part 2 range data.
Hi! When I shoot 38 Sp with my Ruger LCR-x 3", recoil is too strong for my hands, it really hurts especially the thumb joint of my right hand. It is too snappy. I had to go to Wadcutter. This ammo is almost perfect to shoot with such a light revolver like that Ruger. Thank you!
I have a Ruger Single-Six in.22LR / .22WMR. My varmint hunting handgun. My Smith and Wesson model 15 is the only other handgun in my collection that is capable of hitting that small of a target. Excellent sights.
Fit and grips make a great difference. Years ago, I took a petite female to the range to try a few guns. Her #2 choice was a low volume stainless Chief’s Special with adjustable sights, 3” full underlug barrel and Uncle Mike’s grips. Her #1 choice was my 4” Diamondback with Pachmayr Compac grips. The small frame .38 with comfy grips and some barrel weight out front was a winner. I had to hit several gun shows to find another Diamondback. 🙄
Great video, my compromise to reduce recoil and get similar terminal performance... is the 327 Federal which as you know will shoot the 327 Federal Magnum, the 32 H&R Magnum, 32 S&W Long and the 32 S&W Short. The wife who is more recoil sensitive than I shoots the /32 Long for practice / plinking and the 32 H&R for self defense...
The litest recoiling 38 I've ever fired.. Federal HST .38sp +p 130 gr .. Federal achieve plus p velocity by seating the huge hollow point deep in the case... This builds up plus p velocity without adding more powder.. the result is a huge 38 hollow point that expands in penetrates 13 in denim covered ballistic gel.. all while recoiling like a .22 mag .. it's recoil is even less than the critical defense light standard pressure 90 grain
Just to be clear, to lessen recoil on a 38 special handgun the ammo to use is 1. Wadcutter 2.38 CBC special shorts 3. Super Police rounds 4. 38 short colt Thank you for your help.
Yes, but your best bet is to try to find .38 Special wadcutters, probably the most simple solution. The .38 Short Colt would be the next choice. As far as Super police those are hard to find. In addition, also 158 gr lead round nose ammo is low recoil too.
Thank you for listing these! I know its been a while but this video & your list helps me a lot! lol I have arthritis in my hands now & I can't rack the slide on my Cheetah anymore. It's been very frustrating! So, I have been trying to find better options.
@@GunSam Thank you so much for doing this video! I know it's been a while, but I had to tell you. I've been trying to find a handgun I can operate now that I have arthritis in my hands. I can't rack the slide on my Cheetah anymore. I thought getting a revolver might be the answer but wasn't sure about the recoil. I'm hoping this will be the answer for me. Thx again! Oh.if you have any suggestions for CC I'm all ears! lol
Thank you so much for all of your videos. A comparison of the 38Spl Magtech CBC Short vs the 32S&W Long would be very interesting, all aspects if the rounds but especially the recoil differences. Thanks again!
i am no recoil junkie so 22lr is a favorite round. 38 wadcutters and 38 cbc shorts are ideal for recoil averse shooters who want to carry a centerfire snubbie airweight revolver. i can find wadcutters occasionally at some gunshops and usually at a gunshow, but generally wadcutters and always cbc shorts come by mail. stock up when you can, you won’t regret it. i happily discovered that a s&w shield ez 380acp is the equivalent semiauto pistol choice for recoil averse shooters, but i’m still a revolver guy.
I'd like to do a series comparing the .38 Short, Long, Special and .357 Mag to the .32 Short, Long, H&R Mag and .327 Federal to see how they compare. Lots of people know about the .327 Federal revolver's backwards compatibility of cartridges, but then act dumbfounded that there's anything preceding the .38 Special that can be fired through a .357 or .38 revolver.
My fiance has problems with joints in the hands dislocating and collagen being damaged. I've been afraid to have her try shooting anything besides a .22 LR because of the risk of popping her thumb out of place or something similar. I'm glad you reviewed the Magtech .38 special shorts, I think these would be a safe introduction to shooting for her and these should be adequate for defense, especially compared to a .22 LR revolver. I plan to buy a stainless Charter Arms Off Duty .38 special five shot steel frame for her if it fits her hand well, and a .357 magnum stainless Taurus 605 for myself with a Sile walnut combat grip (after seeing how those rubber grips went in another video of yours). Thank you for the reviewing you do, your videos have helped me plan out our concealed carry and home defense package.
Thanks for watching. I can safely say that the .38 CBC shorts really were like a .22 LR. The next best thing were the wadcutters, but i'd say wadcutters were still in the centerfire range for recoil, not much for regular men but something that would jump a tad for someone with issues. I plan to start some testing on .32 caliber revolver rounds soon, and at some point I may get into .32 S&W shorts in the .327 Federal Magnum revolver I am picking up this week. It might open the doors to some low recoil varieties, might test .32 ACP in it as well.
@@GunSam I'm really interested in seeing .32 ACP tested in a revolver, the semi rimmed case might not need a moon clip to fit in the cylinder. .32 ACP in intriguing to me because of how long it served in the militaries and police forces of Europe, the reputation it has for lacking power may be over exaggerated seeing as it didn't have any real issues in European service for decades. I've also read that European companies apparently load .32 ACP a little hotter than US ammo makers. If I'm remembering right a lot of Euro .32 ACP is around 1,000 PSI higher in pressure than a typical US load, that would be worth checking to see if using European made ammo will make a difference. Just be careful doing all this, I'd be worried about the .32 ACP not getting enough case support in the back and having some potential to maybe blow out. Really looking forward to seeing how the next test goes.
i suggest a taurus 85 steel, not ultraweight, instead of a charter arms, for a 38 snubbie. the taurus is higher quality and smoother to shoot, and the steel model is still easy to hold but absorbs recoil much better.
Choose a revolver as heavy as possible, with as short barrel as possible. Full steel custom n-frame with 2 inch barrel, for example, would recoil the least. You can go even further by porting the 2 inch barrel, and having a gunsmith install a thick and heavy barrel.
Basic physics. Equal and opposite reaction to the force of the bullet leaving the barrel. The force of the bullet fired minus the weight of the gun equals the felt recoil. Heavy gun, low felt recoil. Light gun, high felt recoil.
I have some 105 grain 550 fps 38 Special rounds I got online. VERY soft shooting. Called "cowboy loads." I'm teaching a new shooter & she loves this ammo from my Ruger LCR & LCRX. She finds wadcutters snappy. I did try 38 Short Colt but they were very inaccurate. Might be the longer jump to the cylinder but they grouped like I was 50 yards away.
I have heard reports of poor accuracy with tiny rounds in longer cylinders like .38 SC or .32 S&W in .357/.327 mag revolvers. In a technical sense I cannot understand why. I mean yes the .358" bullet moves through a fraction of an inch of .380" sized cylinder before it hits the front of the cylinder and forcing cone at .357", but I wouldn't think that would be enough time to matter. I mean, I suppose it's possible that the bullet moves ever so slightly in that space and when it hits .357" it deforms a bit, affecting accuracy....but I don't know.
Extremely helpful because I was going to buy a 22lr and the gun shops keep recommending 38 . I think I’ll go with the defender 856 38 special three inch .
My Colt Cobra alloy was not pleasant to shoot with plus P 38 special. Target loads in a full size steel revolver would not bother any normal person. Having said that, if a madman was coming at me with an axe, then the Cobra would be a comfort.
I have been debating getting a .327 LCR for years. They have more ammo options than even .357 mag revolvers. I even see people shooting .32 auto through them, plus 6 shots in a J frame size gun is hard to beat.
I got my wife a Charter Arms undercoverette in .32 H&R mag. She handled the .38s just fine from my 4" model 66, but the less recoil, the more accurate one tends to be so we went that route. She loves shooting .32 S&W longs for practice. It's a fun little gun.
Or a LCR i. .327 Federal magnum loaded with .32 S&W ;) To get .32 S&W here is easy, to get .38 short colt you have to load it. Maybe its different in the US but many competitions here are shot with .32’s. Will be fun to see the tests of those shorts, never seen them fired before!
In the U.S. rounds such as the .32 or .38 S&W are considered functionally obsolete. Munitions manufacturers will infrequently do production runs of either and that makes either relatively expensive. A number of revolvers are still in use; those afficianados for such sidearms often are hand loading hobbyists.
No need to go with a 22: if you can do your own reloads. I can’t find 38 C.B.C Short, 38 Short Colt, or 38 Long Colt for sale anywhere. My hands can’t handle even the recoil of .38 Special Wadcutters any more. I did find some Cowboy Action loads that seem to be lower recoil, so I will be testing those. Thank you for the very thorough and very informative review.
If you can acquire a .32 caliber revolver like a .327 Federal magnum or .32 H&R magnum, it shoots the way less recoiling .32 S&W Long wadcutters. Less recoil than a .22 but more effective.
I typically start new shooters out on 4.0 gr. of Unique, pushing a 158-gr. lead-round-nose or semi-wadcutter bullet. Recoil is mild in a five-shot, 3" Taurus M85, and almost non-existent in a 4" Security Six. In my experience, I've found that recoil sensitivity can be trained out of most folks, unless they have an actual physical limitation.
You threw a lot of different numbers at me but, I don't really think most people will look at a 38 special and a 22 lr and not think there will be a difference in recoil. Looking forward to Part 2 in seeing the difference in the 38 short though.
my girlfriend hated to fire her model 60 sw 38 because of the blast so she closed her eyes. she is gone now but i'm kicking my ass because i was too stupid to even enquirer about lower pressure loads. so your video will inform those who were like me. thanks.
I have a .38 s&w mod 10-5 with 4” barrel , I TrueDepth some Rem, fed, and monoecious. had bad experience with them , lots of squibs in them. So I now use Hornady C D and had no problem with them . Low powered ammo could be very Dangerous. So please be Careful when choosing a ammo. Be sure if you hear a low report fire, Check the barrel for a stuck bullet or jacket.
Lots of numbers, but a really interesting video. Out shooting recently with my fatherinlaw, retired PD, he shot my LCR and was surprised at the recoil. Next time out at the loading bench I may give some light loads a try just for fun.
Lead bullets seem to be the best for really dropping the recoil with light charges. I actually like to use hard cast lead and load data for lead works just fine, but they shoot as clean as jacketed.
Those 2 ounces of difference between a .38 LCR and an alloy J frame make all the difference in the world. In my own tests, I found it made quite a difference in my ability to get the revolver back on target for followup shots.
@@biffdinkley3870 Maybe . Yes , in those ranges 2oz is meaningful , but more on the order of 10% - ish difference . For " All the Difference in the World " ? Maybe that 15% was just the straw on the camel's back for you , but I would suspect more likely how each gun fit your hand , and their balance in hand was more significant .
If you purchased a .38 revolver and find the recoil abusive even with the lightest loads, you can duplicate the .32 Long exactly with a hand load. Use a 100 grain .38 wadcutter bullet over 2.8 grains of 231 powder. It will produce the same velocity and recoil impulse as the .32 Long being fired in the same gun. Regrettably, this is not a commercial load (although it should be). You will have to roll your own, or find someone to do it for you.
Sorry I have to go to bed I'm beat. I'll watch tomorrow. I know your channel isn't political. I've been watching for two days and leaving comments with everybody else to slam the NRA and go with the GOA. I'm asking everyone to call their favorite manufacturers and tell them leave the NRA or we will leave you. I'm calling Ruger and Henry tomorrow. Watch pops quest in yesterday's video about the NRA. He even has papers from the NRA too the ATF begging for them to check out bumpstocks. I've never belonged to them only the GOA!! I'm tired and mean but I don't want to lose my guns and freedom!! Rich
@@Fudmottin I did an NRA membership one time for a year, I think in 2016. It was my first and last time. They hound you daily for money, even if they were good I would still not be a member. Soliciting money by telling you that you will lose everything without them.
Was a member some years ago for a few years. Weekly letters with HEAVY terminology asking for funds (and all the reasons why, threats why, political messes why). Finally quit. Was sick of it. I unsubscribed in every way I know how. I've even moved a couple addresses (for unforseen reasons). Still to this day, periodically I get a renewal notice. I don't even open it. Tear it in half and into the trash. No idea how they get my address, after I've moved and unsubscribed. Electronic stalking I guess? Some way through the State DL registration system?
That is pretty darn cool. So that's the CBC you mentioned. Nice to see it. When I had my niece shooting revolvers, I started her on my Taurus with the Magtech 130gr FMJ standard pressure. She did well with it and then I had her try my 638 airweight. She picked up on the difference immediately. I had to remind her of Newton's 3rd law. I do kinda wish I reviewed her shooting with the J-Frame on site because some simple grip technique remediation would fix things and she would be quite good with the J-Frame. Young eyes can see the sights and targets better. She still did OK, but the recoil management could certainly have been improved.
When I fired these, I would say that the sound report was the same as a .22 as well, maybe even less. It's true that grip technique soaks up recoil. The science behind felt recoil is there, however a 200 lb man gripping the gun to death would have to play into it's true recoil force and velocity, as the numbers calculated would have to be with no grip.
@@GunSam Calculating the free recoil energy in a gun is exactly the same as calculating the muzzle energy of a bullet. There is a bit of a complication when it comes to accounting for the powder charge though as it is also exiting the muzzle at high pressure and acting like a small rocket engine for a brief period of time. It's all down to Newton's 3rd law (which is really implied by the 2nd and 1st). The force you throw out the front is going to have an equal force in the opposite direction. A heavier gun recoils slower so it has less free recoil energy. Bigger grips spread the recoil energy out, so you have less sting in the hands. Rubberized grips can spread that energy over time for even more comfort. There is no need to fight the recoil. In fact, you can't. You can only manage it. That's straight up technique. I'm no macho man but I can run powerful loads in my J-Frame and my N-Frame. The N-Frame is actually a hell of a lot more comfortable. Having the backstrap exposed doesn't bother me. Now obviously I could shoot .22lr or light .38s a hell of a lot longer before getting tired than I can with magnums. I'm not superman either.
@@GunSam I did a UA-cam search on "low recoil 38 special ammo". You're videos on the subject show up on the first page. The top result is for Hornady Lite, a 90 gr pink tipped .38 Spl load that is in a .38 Spl case and has gotten poor reviews from the two videos I've seen on it. The only upside seems to be that Hornady donates some of the proceeds to breast cancer research. As far as the components for my attempt go, I'm expecting them on Friday. Weather depending, I could be testing as early (or late depending on how you judge things) as next week. Based on the data and research I've been doing, the most promising powders to use are Unique, Bullseye, and TiteGroup. The latter two would have charge weights within 0.1 gr of each other. The Unique would use a higher charge weight. I don't see a problem with meeting my velocity goal. My worry is in keeping the spread and standard deviation low as well as staying in safe pressures for an alloy frame .38 Spl J-Frame snubbie. I plan to use factory 130 gr FMJ for my recoil comparison. I don't have anything lighter than that.
@@GunSam 110 gr Gold Dot SB bullets @ 960 fps. If that proves to still produce too much recoil, I can cut back on the velocities a bit. Jacketed bullets can only be launched so slow before risking squib loads and having wild variations though.
I'm surprised you didn't mention the Hornady. 38 Spl Lites. 90 grains will do the job in addition to your recommendations presented. Very detailed explanation.
Do you have any good load data for Silhouette powder? I have 158 grain lead round nose bullets, 148 grain lead wadcutters (flat on both ends), and berrys 125 grain plated hollow point. I have seen varying info… I’m sheepish about loading pistol ammo.
one thing i love about revolvers they dont leave shells, you can use and see different ammo in the cylinder if one chooses to. more reliable, no jams. you missfire or get a dud with a revolver you just pull the trigger again.
I wonder if you could load .357 brass with weaker powder or just less powder and get less recoil that way, but without making a mess of the cylinder all the time.
Have you seen Lucky Gunner Ammo's latest video? He's advocating 32 Caliber in the Ruger LCR for low recoil options. Sound in principle perhaps. Also the extra chamber in the cylinder is nice. Perhaps even the ballistics are good. I don't think he's considered the low recoil alternatives that exist for 38/357 snubbies. He certainly made no mention of 38 Short Colt or 38 Long Colt loadings that could be amped up a bit for modern firearms.
@@robert.colaner I can't think of a reason that they would not be safe. There's a 1/2" jump from .380" to .357" vs a .357 Magnum round. The forcing cone really shouldn't be affected in any way, the chamber taper goes down to the same size before the forcing cone whether it's a .357 Mag, .38 Special, .38 Long Colt or .38 Short Colt.
9mm is .355, the 38 and the 357 are .357. some cast Hard Semi- Wadcutter at 158 grs is a really good hunting round. After firing I get a bullet diameter of .325,inside barrel diameter, so does this mean the the 38/357 are really 32 caliber? The 200 gr, Semi-Wadcutter HP for a defensive load. The "FBI" load. As for the 357 there are just so many factory loads to choose from, the whole family of 38 and +P stuff and then to step-up and to be serious the 357 mag. ammo, from the solids to the HP's. If you are a Reloader, that opens up a really big world for this class of 38/357 ammo, powders and bullet choices galore. In two of my reloading manuals the largest section is the 38/357 section. I would like a 30 Carbine converted to 357 mag and then there is the Ruger Bolt Action that puts the 357, because of the long barrel, into the 30-30 class of Deer Hunting rounds. 158gr, Hard Semi Wadcutter loaded to about 1350 FPS. Henry has a 38/357 Lever action, too.
Whenever I measure recovered .357 or .38 Special bullets the unexpanded portion usually measures from .352" to .357", some of the low numbers are probably the rifling cuts where my caliper lands. .325" doesn't sound right unless they are lead and losing a lot of lead in the bore, or you have an extremely out of spec bore.
@@GunSam Yes you are right...I cleaned the barrel,ran a brush through it then swabbed it till the patch came through clean. Then with a digital caliper measured the bore at the muzzle, .353 was what I got. Yup, clean the thing first then measure.
I own some older (pre-1960s) S&Ws, so I'm always on the lookout for good non-+P options. I've been pleasantly surprised by the ARX Inceptor round. Minimal recoil, yet somehow shoots well to POA. 130g Winchester Defend is pretty mild, with the same projectile as the PDX1.
Police records show that self defense distances for concealed carry vary from 2-60 feet. At 60 feet would a wadcutter be less accurate than a semi wadcutter or hollow point? Let me explain my situation. I have had to defend myself on 3 occasions in the past before I had the ability to carry. In each case the distance I encountered physical force was about 5 feet. I like wheelguns far more for this type of situation and in general defensive situations. I don't want a body pushing a slide out of battery or the shot sucking fabric into the gun and causing malfunction. I like to carry 2 wheel guns and practice NY reloads rather than carry a high cap semi auto. I carry iwb strong side and pocket carry weak side. The real intended point though for the offhand is if my strong hand is incompacitated and I need to draw weak side or my strong arm is grabbed or held I can push the smaller dao snubby into the belly and shoot off some of those hst loads. But let's say I run out of ammo in my 4", do you think the hsts could be shot accurately under stress out to 10-15 yards out of a dao ultra lite?
Just viewed this low recoil video on options for the .38 cal. revolver. I'm 75 and do suffer from hand arthritis. Up until about 2 years ago, I was fine doing my normal range work with standard velocity .38's. However this past winter has had it's toll on my hand pain when shooting standard loads. I immediately tried to find some low powered .38 shorts and/or even .38 wadcutter ammunition, but was unable to find anything at 4 local gun dealers. I was told by them all that ammunition today is very difficult to come by and that most available are the standard or high powered variations, regardless of the caliber. Some didn't even know that they still make .32 S & W long guns & ammo! I found one box of .38 semi-wadcutters which I bought and have yet to try out. I have a feeling that these will not be much better than standard full jacketed loads, but I'll try them this weekend. Looks like I may not have an option to stay with my SP101. I may just have to downgrade to a .22 cal. revolver instead. Any thoughts?
Any .327 Federal Magnum revolver will fire .32 S&W Long and I even fired regular .32 S&W through my .327 revolver fine and it was like shooting a bb gun. With .357/.38 Special I will sometimes shoot .38 Short Colt which is the same as .38 Special Short. Some of the semi wadcutter ammo is pretty light, like Federal is light for sure. If you can order online you can find pretty much anything you want. I know some people are in states that do not allow online orders of ammo but that's where I get all of my ammo. Also I know that the Fiocchi wadcutters are loaded lighter than most other wadcutters, so the recoil with those should be a like a .22 in a SP101.
@@GunSam Thank you for that information. I've never tried to order ammunition online as it still has to go to a local dealer before I get it (at least that's how it is with guns). And I'm not sure what a dealer would charge me "extra" for receiving product outside his distribution chain. However, I will certainly look into that. Thanks again!
Problem is most of the folks that want low recoil want everything lighter , low weight pistols, not the heavy stainless police pistols but very few want them
I had the same idea with .32 long. You get the centerfire reliability with minimal recoil. They still make .32 long ammo, usually very soft shooting wadcutters. You can shoot them in a .327 Ruger SP 101 for a really mild-shooting experience. You can also pick up .33 long chambered revolvers cheap because of the unpopularity of the cartridge.
I think that even .32 ACP will fire in them as well. I forgot the specifics, but it's semi rimmed and close enough to the chamber size, that people have been doing it for a long time in the .312" bore revolvers like .327 .32 long, .32 H&R etc.
The problem with .32ACP is that it's pressure max is higher than .32 long. So, a .32H&R magnum or .327 Federal magnum revolver can handle the pressure, but a .32 long may not. Many .32 long revolvers were top break with weak frames. That is why the .32 long wad cutter factory loads are so weak. If you have a solid framed .32 long revolver, it can take rounds loaded a lot hotter than that.
I know that you going to Sam do not like the Federal HST 38 + p..BUT and all the ballistic tests I've seen in FBI organic gel with denim covered.. the HST has 13 in of penetration and fully expands it has extremely light recoil as like you say in this video the huge wide mouth hollow point is seated deep in the case producing + p velocities without adding more powder.. in my 11 oz 342 centennial 38 the HST recoils extremely mild... Much much less felt recoil then the Hornady.. critical defense lite...95 gr
@@GunSam I just went on Federal website... The federal HST micro 38 130 gr +p .. does NOT say it's discontinued on their website? .. wondering where you got the information that it was discontinued???
Also when speaking of recoil... my aunt (never been into guns at all) decided she wanted a carry gun a few months back. So we met at the gun store and they talked her into a glock 43. While dealing with her ownership paperwork from her state she got to shoot my dads kahr cw9 and my lcr 357 wiith 38s. While shooting the kahr it kept malfunctioning becuase she couldnt hold it tight enough to hold it in place to let the slide reoil back properly, needles to say she hated it. After shooting my lcr (which she did much better with) she called the gun shop and made the switch to an lcr. Sorry for the long story but alot of people dont think about that with new, elderly or disabled shooters.
I have seen it myself. I even torture tested my old Glock 36 all the time, tried two finger grips even, it was 100% reliable. First time my GF shot it...shot one to two, jam. Clear it, next shot...jam, clear...next shot jam. She ended up with a S&W Bodyguard .38 in the end.
Had the same situation... elderly relative without a lot of hand strength. The LCR trigger for their centerfires is miles better than a modern J frame out of the box.
Keeping this simple.... excessive case capacity does two things... enables the powder to lay forward of the primer or anywhere except against it. The primer then drives the bullet and the unburned powder out the barrel greatly reducing pressure. Has nothing to do with powder charge just too much room in case. Also re pressure.... yes increase in pressure in a small case but the pulse is very short. So less powder equals less total pressure pulse, more powder equals a longer pressure rise and pulse as it takes longer to burn. Now you know everything. PS... a primer will drive a bullet out as well just too short of a pulse of pressure and too little to do anything else. I digress.......
The dimensions are different, I don't think they would even fit the chambers right. I see no reason to even try as its a high pressure round, more so than .357 mag so its probably a bad idea even if it does fit.
Depends on the individual gun . The pressure spec for .38Super is 35k psi , same as .357 ( The similar looking 9x23 Win is way higher .) The Semi Rim on the Super may or may not adequately support the round in your revolver chamber . The thinner Semi Rim on the Super may or may not allow your firing pin to reliably set it off . The Super case will noticeably swell in the .357 chamber, but usually not split . But as Gun Sam noted , there is no good reason to want to do this on purpose .
The 158 LHP was the single most popular LE round during the later Revolver Era , with the Treasury Load second , ( and every other .38 load combined in third ) . And still an excellent performing round to this day .
@@couerleroi1 you may run into issues with the inner wall of the case being tapered. I bought a bunch of 38 short cases from Starline several years ago just for my mouse farts loads.
This is a good video. The heavy gun wins. I have a favor to ask of you relating to a video you made about the Federal .38 Special 110 grain hydra shok low recoil personal defense load. I have searched your videos and I can not find it. If you could reply with a link to it I would appreciate it. I want to include it in my comments at another gun channel if you don't mind. In your video you commented as to how well it performed with such little felt recoil. Thank you. Steve
so with the smaller revolver you have there how is the recoil with your suggested ammo?? I don't think wifey would like to carry around a dirty harry gun, so the larger revolver is not an option. I've been looking for a used 22wmr lcr and now the .380 ez from SW. but what you have here might be an option
My revolver is 11 oz so there's just a little recoil. What I find to be the best balance of light weight but still handling recoil is something in the 17 oz range like magnum the Ruger LCR's. There's a .357 Mag and .327 Federal Mag in those, and they are better than the .38 Special only version as they are 4 oz heavier. Using a low end load like in this video would work great in the .357 Mag version, and in .327 Magnum the .32 H&R mag and .32 S&W Long will fire in that and have even less recoil than these low end .38 Special rounds.
I believe I used this one: www.shooterscalculator.com/recoil-calculator.php but if you just google "bullet recoil calculator" there are a ton of sites with them and they are all the same.
But hollow points create that same effect. Now what larger bullets often do better than smaller is they typically pack more momentum, which will pull it through ribs and whatnot better than light expanding bullets.
@@GunSam not denying that. My comment was specifically "aimed" to affirm that .38 Caliber Projectiles do more damage than .22 LR/Magnum. Hollow points are better of course, but for some smaller calibers such as .32acp/.25acp, penetration is more important. Wasn't disagreeing with you just putting my $0.02 in!
Old people and the disabled should see this video before they purchase a gun. I'm gonna show it to Grandma because she's getting old and that 12 guage double is just to big .
Have you ever had a revolver that when you load it and then open the cylinder and push the ejector rod one of the bullets goes in front of the extractor star and the other 4 bullets eject fine but the other 1 is in front of the extractor star what do you think i should do?thanks
I have only had that happen when I shot some .32 ACP in the LCR, being a semi rimmed there wasn't enough. I don't know what cartridge you are having an issue with but i'd try all ammo brands and rule out cases/rims that are out of spec before I go to the next step at diagnosing the issue.
@@GunSam It is a 38 special round i had it happen once before on a Kimber K6S and i just had it happen again on a new revolver Rock Island Armory when you load the rounds and then you push the ejector rod to release the rounds one of the rounds goes in front of the ejector star so i have to push the ejector rod all the way and pry the round out.
@@keithgregory7937 I'm not an expert on extractor stars, but it's possible it's slightly out of spec. Maybe the company can send you a new extractor star.
Special short is just a little longer brass, so a max charge for .38 short colt should work well as long as the bullet isn't seated too deep or not deep enough, which is difficult seeing its an unknown load. If you get a bullet with a cannelure than great, no callelure might need some experimentation. I have reloaded 93 gr non canellure LRN bullets and I had to barely crimp, as crimping into bullet too much caused the bullets to fall out as the roll crimp released the pressure below the case mouth. Id say when loading don't over flare case mouth and it shouldn't need a crimp.
HELP! If I get a snub nose revolver S&W 640 and use .38+p rounds, will it handle recoil better than an S&W 642? I intend to Concealed carry this and am wondering if this plan is viable? Thanks
The 640 is heavier so yes it will handle recoil better. I have a Taurus 605 that weighs 21 oz on my scale and a 342pd that weighs 11 oz on my scale, the recoil is cut in half with the Taurus.
I have no idea where to get these. My friend made them for me with .35 Remington rifle bullet molds. So basically, if you can find those rifle bullets in lead (don't use jacketed) you basically have these.
The .38 S&W "can" fit and fire from a .38 Special or .357 Magnum revolver, but only if the particular revolver in question is loose in tolerance. The .38 S&W is slightly fatter than the .38/.357 but only by a tiny amount, and the pressure is lower than .38 Special, so if it will fit it will fire fine. But you never know if your particular revolver will or will not fit a .38 S&W until you try it.
I like 32 for recoil sensitive shooters as well. A 32SW Long with 95 grain wadcutter is going to penetrate deep and the recoil is very soft, even in a snub. I see you are a hand loader. Do you go on The Reloaders Network? I'd be interested in some of your low recoil hand loads for 38.
@@GunSam You can find them on the web or we have a more interactive chat group on Slack. There's a lot of content creators there as well as regular reloaders. I've learned a lot from being able to talk to some very experienced reloaders directly. You should check it out. Now that UA-cam is not allowing reloading videos, I'm sure they would host content for you if you wanted to make those kind of videos.
What most people do not understand is the strength differences between men and women. As a reference I practiced medicine for many years and have a medical degree. Women have only about 55% of the upper body strength a man does. Since most men have trouble with this concept, that is roughly that of an average 11 y/o (maybe 12 at best) boy from a strength perspective. So when you recommend a weapon to someone ask yourself if you think a 11 y/o could handle it physically. Also keep in mind that this person is going to get older and weaker in the future so they need to be able to handle the weapon easily in the future as well. Men start their decline physically around age 23 (exceptions of course exist), a woman’s decline starts in their late teens, which is why Olympic gymnasts (strongest athletes pound for pound) are at the ages they are when they compete. After the age of 30 the decline goes faster. So something to think about when recommending a gun to carry for a 45 year old woman to carry for the next 15 years.
You will have to explain what you mean. I think you're asking for a specific ammo and mean bullet grains. Typically any .38 Special ammo that has a bullet weight of 90 or 110 gr that does NOT have (+P) on the box, is going to be low recoil. Also .38 Special 148 gr wadcutters of most types are low in recoil as well. Usually heavier bullet grains means more recoil but the wadcutter is the exception. Stay away from (+P) and bullet weights that are 140-158 gr and go with 90 and 100 gr an you will do fine.
Gun Sam _Revolver Aficionado_ Yes, I can understand that! I’ll ask for that when buying. Thanks for your quick response. I just bought a Ruger lcr 38spl +P.
A wadcutter is just a bullet with a flat nose, the bullet looks like you took a round-nose bullet and just sliced off the nose where it starts to round off. Used to be used for target shooting because it makes a big hole on paper targets. A semi-wadcutter is similar except imagine you "sliced" the bullet nose after it starts curving, maybe halfway to the nose. They also can be a good man-stopper round because the flat face will do a lot of tissue damage vs a round nose full metal jacket bullet. One could use a .38 Special wadcutter for self defense as 1. Revolvers are very reliable and simple, and 2. It would have a huge impact on a person, like a lot of high-cost super duper ammo is trying to do, and 3. A .38 can be very comfortable to shoot without a huge amount of recoil. The downside would be it probably isn't great at penetrating things like car doors and windshields. But virtually ideal and low cost for someone who considers the most likely need to be against one or two ordinary assailants, i.e., nobody wearing body armor or anything like that.
@@williamsample2631 Ammo shortage right now with coronavirus, hard to find most calibers. I had shot a box of 380 a week ago on one of the first nice days of spring. Other than Hornady Critical Defense at about $1.40/shot, which is crazy, that store is incredibly high,they had a few boxes of Winchester "FMJ Service Grade" at 40 cents/round. I have never seen these. The bullet is actually flat-nosed like a semi-wadcutter. I haven't shot any yet, but assuming they run only in my Glock 42, they could be the ideal combination practice and carry round! I may need to set up a meat target to find out.
@@williamsample2631 Hi again. I tried shooting those 380acp semi wadcutter. Will never buy them again. Several jams of one kind or another. I think the shortened nose made them not want to feed.
Have you ever cut .357mag cases down to 9mm case capacity and loaded them like a 9mm? In snubbies the 9mm out performs most .357mag loads with mild .38 like recoil.
No, however I have with .38 Short Colt brass lol...same length as 9mm. Not loaded hot but definitely faster, like 158 gr LRN 1,000 FPS instead of .38 Special cases at 700 FPS. But I don't know where you get 9mm outperforms .357 Mag in snubbies. Maybe on fast shooting it outperforms, but most overage .357 Mag loads are up there 450-480 ft lbs energy in a 2" barrel. I can't get anywhere even near there even in a 4" 9mm.
Part 2: ua-cam.com/video/gYxRTdgPnFw/v-deo.html&t
So glad you did a video on this! Thank you! Arthritis has me looking for a handgun I can operate on my own...that won't kill my hands every time I fire! lol
Knowing one's low recoil .38 caliber options is very helpful. Thanks.
Thanks for watching.
@@GunSam Another advantage of using your .38 special or .357 magnum revolver with the loads you explained as a low recoil option is that the trigger pull of the .22 caliber revolver would be a heavier pull than on the .38/.357 revolvers as I understand it.
My wife and daughter like the Federal 110 gr Hydra-Shok standard pressure low recoil personal defense load in their revolvers.
If it wouldn't be too much trouble would you please list a link to a calculator for determining recoil impulse. P.S., my uncle owned an S&W .38 S&W break top five shot revolver that was his home defense weapon.
Great vid Sam. You are knocking on my door. I only carry revolvers and I am old with bad arthritis so this is perfect. Thanks!
Thank you for this video! I had no Idea there were other calibers that I could use in my 38 special revolver.
This is the one benefit revolvers will always have over semi-autos! No need to change springs or anything. Just make sure the cartridge is the right diameter and proper pressure range!
Hey Sam; What I think would be really interesting is to investigate factors for low noise loadings. Slow powder v.s. fast powder, heavy bullet v.s. light bullet, is it always the lowest velocity etc. It is the kind of thing that might turn out to be more complicated and interesting than it might appear at first blush.
Thanks for posting this valuable information. These options may be also be relevant to shooters that can tolerate high recoil, since they facilitate faster follow-up shots in self defense situations. Looking forward to Part 2 range data.
Hi! When I shoot 38 Sp with my Ruger LCR-x 3", recoil is too strong for my hands, it really hurts especially the thumb joint of my right hand. It is too snappy. I had to go to Wadcutter. This ammo is almost perfect to shoot with such a light revolver like that Ruger. Thank you!
And this is why I love this channel. I always leave smarter than when I came in.
I have a Ruger Single-Six in.22LR / .22WMR. My varmint hunting handgun. My Smith and Wesson model 15 is the only other handgun in my collection that is capable of hitting that small of a target. Excellent sights.
Fit and grips make a great difference. Years ago, I took a petite female to the range to try a few guns. Her #2 choice was a low volume stainless Chief’s Special with adjustable sights, 3” full underlug barrel and Uncle Mike’s grips. Her #1 choice was my 4” Diamondback with Pachmayr Compac grips. The small frame .38 with comfy grips and some barrel weight out front was a winner. I had to hit several gun shows to find another Diamondback. 🙄
Great video, my compromise to reduce recoil and get similar terminal performance... is the 327 Federal which as you know will shoot the 327 Federal Magnum, the 32 H&R Magnum, 32 S&W Long and the 32 S&W Short. The wife who is more recoil sensitive than I shoots the /32 Long for practice / plinking and the 32 H&R for self defense...
The litest recoiling 38 I've ever fired.. Federal HST .38sp +p 130 gr .. Federal achieve plus p velocity by seating the huge hollow point deep in the case... This builds up plus p velocity without adding more powder.. the result is a huge 38 hollow point that expands in penetrates 13 in denim covered ballistic gel.. all while recoiling like a .22 mag .. it's recoil is even less than the critical defense light standard pressure 90 grain
Just to be clear, to lessen recoil on a 38 special handgun the ammo to use is
1. Wadcutter
2.38 CBC special shorts
3. Super Police rounds
4. 38 short colt
Thank you for your help.
Yes, but your best bet is to try to find .38 Special wadcutters, probably the most simple solution. The .38 Short Colt would be the next choice. As far as Super police those are hard to find. In addition, also 158 gr lead round nose ammo is low recoil too.
@@GunSam Thank you.
Thank you for listing these! I know its been a while but this video & your list helps me a lot! lol I have arthritis in my hands now & I can't rack the slide on my Cheetah anymore. It's been very frustrating! So, I have been trying to find better options.
@@GunSam Thank you so much for doing this video! I know it's been a while, but I had to tell you. I've been trying to find a handgun I can operate now that I have arthritis in my hands. I can't rack the slide on my Cheetah anymore. I thought getting a revolver might be the answer but wasn't sure about the recoil. I'm hoping this will be the answer for me. Thx again! Oh.if you have any suggestions for CC I'm all ears! lol
Thank you so much for all of your videos. A comparison of the 38Spl Magtech CBC Short vs the 32S&W Long would be very interesting, all aspects if the rounds but especially the recoil differences. Thanks again!
i am no recoil junkie so 22lr is a favorite round. 38 wadcutters and 38 cbc shorts are ideal for recoil averse shooters who want to carry a centerfire snubbie airweight revolver. i can find wadcutters occasionally at some gunshops and usually at a gunshow, but generally wadcutters and always cbc shorts come by mail. stock up when you can, you won’t regret it.
i happily discovered that a s&w shield ez 380acp is the equivalent semiauto pistol choice for recoil averse shooters, but i’m still a revolver guy.
I'd like to do a series comparing the .38 Short, Long, Special and .357 Mag to the .32 Short, Long, H&R Mag and .327 Federal to see how they compare. Lots of people know about the .327 Federal revolver's backwards compatibility of cartridges, but then act dumbfounded that there's anything preceding the .38 Special that can be fired through a .357 or .38 revolver.
My fiance has problems with joints in the hands dislocating and collagen being damaged. I've been afraid to have her try shooting anything besides a .22 LR because of the risk of popping her thumb out of place or something similar. I'm glad you reviewed the Magtech .38 special shorts, I think these would be a safe introduction to shooting for her and these should be adequate for defense, especially compared to a .22 LR revolver. I plan to buy a stainless Charter Arms Off Duty .38 special five shot steel frame for her if it fits her hand well, and a .357 magnum stainless Taurus 605 for myself with a Sile walnut combat grip (after seeing how those rubber grips went in another video of yours). Thank you for the reviewing you do, your videos have helped me plan out our concealed carry and home defense package.
Thanks for watching. I can safely say that the .38 CBC shorts really were like a .22 LR. The next best thing were the wadcutters, but i'd say wadcutters were still in the centerfire range for recoil, not much for regular men but something that would jump a tad for someone with issues. I plan to start some testing on .32 caliber revolver rounds soon, and at some point I may get into .32 S&W shorts in the .327 Federal Magnum revolver I am picking up this week. It might open the doors to some low recoil varieties, might test .32 ACP in it as well.
@@GunSam I'm really interested in seeing .32 ACP tested in a revolver, the semi rimmed case might not need a moon clip to fit in the cylinder. .32 ACP in intriguing to me because of how long it served in the militaries and police forces of Europe, the reputation it has for lacking power may be over exaggerated seeing as it didn't have any real issues in European service for decades. I've also read that European companies apparently load .32 ACP a little hotter than US ammo makers. If I'm remembering right a lot of Euro .32 ACP is around 1,000 PSI higher in pressure than a typical US load, that would be worth checking to see if using European made ammo will make a difference. Just be careful doing all this, I'd be worried about the .32 ACP not getting enough case support in the back and having some potential to maybe blow out.
Really looking forward to seeing how the next test goes.
i suggest a taurus 85 steel, not ultraweight, instead of a charter arms, for a 38 snubbie. the taurus is higher quality and smoother to shoot, and the steel model is still easy to hold but absorbs recoil much better.
Choose a revolver as heavy as possible, with as short barrel as possible.
Full steel custom n-frame with 2 inch barrel, for example, would recoil the least.
You can go even further by porting the 2 inch barrel, and having a gunsmith install a thick and heavy barrel.
Basic physics. Equal and opposite reaction to the force of the bullet leaving the barrel. The force of the bullet fired minus the weight of the gun equals the felt recoil. Heavy gun, low felt recoil. Light gun, high felt recoil.
I have some 105 grain 550 fps 38 Special rounds I got online. VERY soft shooting. Called "cowboy loads." I'm teaching a new shooter & she loves this ammo from my Ruger LCR & LCRX. She finds wadcutters snappy. I did try 38 Short Colt but they were very inaccurate. Might be the longer jump to the cylinder but they grouped like I was 50 yards away.
I have heard reports of poor accuracy with tiny rounds in longer cylinders like .38 SC or .32 S&W in .357/.327 mag revolvers. In a technical sense I cannot understand why. I mean yes the .358" bullet moves through a fraction of an inch of .380" sized cylinder before it hits the front of the cylinder and forcing cone at .357", but I wouldn't think that would be enough time to matter. I mean, I suppose it's possible that the bullet moves ever so slightly in that space and when it hits .357" it deforms a bit, affecting accuracy....but I don't know.
Extremely helpful because I was going to buy a 22lr and the gun shops keep recommending 38 . I think I’ll go with the defender 856 38 special three inch .
I just bought that yesterday. I plan to shoot it tomorrow, film it and all of that, make a video
Great information! Can’t wait for the shooting part f this !
My Colt Cobra alloy was not pleasant to shoot with plus P 38 special. Target loads in a full size steel revolver would not bother any normal person. Having said that, if a madman was coming at me with an axe, then the Cobra would be a comfort.
Also used 32 revolvers or new 327 magnum revolvers can be stepped down for recoil sensitive or physical constraints.
I have been debating getting a .327 LCR for years. They have more ammo options than even .357 mag revolvers. I even see people shooting .32 auto through them, plus 6 shots in a J frame size gun is hard to beat.
I got my wife a Charter Arms undercoverette in .32 H&R mag. She handled the .38s just fine from my 4" model 66, but the less recoil, the more accurate one tends to be so we went that route. She loves shooting .32 S&W longs for practice. It's a fun little gun.
Yeah, I am thinking of the RIA M206 25oz with wad cutters.
Or a LCR i. .327 Federal magnum loaded with .32 S&W ;) To get .32 S&W here is easy, to get .38 short colt you have to load it. Maybe its different in the US but many competitions here are shot with .32’s.
Will be fun to see the tests of those shorts, never seen them fired before!
In the U.S. rounds such as the .32 or .38 S&W are considered functionally obsolete. Munitions manufacturers will infrequently do production runs of either and that makes either relatively expensive. A number of revolvers are still in use; those afficianados for such sidearms often are hand loading hobbyists.
I hit the subscribe button; I really enjoyed your teaching style - thanks!
No need to go with a 22: if you can do your own reloads. I can’t find 38 C.B.C Short, 38 Short Colt, or 38 Long Colt for sale anywhere. My hands can’t handle even the recoil of .38 Special Wadcutters any more. I did find some Cowboy Action loads that seem to be lower recoil, so I will be testing those. Thank you for the very thorough and very informative review.
If you can acquire a .32 caliber revolver like a .327 Federal magnum or .32 H&R magnum, it shoots the way less recoiling .32 S&W Long wadcutters. Less recoil than a .22 but more effective.
@@GunSam Thank you, I will consider that.
In this video you can see how low recoil a .32 Long wadcutter is. ua-cam.com/video/rNne4RfvO94/v-deo.html
I typically start new shooters out on 4.0 gr. of Unique, pushing a 158-gr. lead-round-nose or semi-wadcutter bullet. Recoil is mild in a five-shot, 3" Taurus M85, and almost non-existent in a 4" Security Six. In my experience, I've found that recoil sensitivity can be trained out of most folks, unless they have an actual physical limitation.
You threw a lot of different numbers at me but, I don't really think most people will look at a 38 special and a 22 lr and not think there will be a difference in recoil. Looking forward to Part 2 in seeing the difference in the 38 short though.
It will be interesting for sure. I don't know what to expect with the .38 short.
Very good video! You are answering a lot of questions I had. Looking forward to part 2 next.
my girlfriend hated to fire her model 60 sw 38 because of the blast so she closed her eyes. she is gone now but i'm kicking my ass because i was too stupid to even enquirer about lower pressure loads. so your video will inform those who were like me. thanks.
I have a .38 s&w mod 10-5 with 4” barrel , I TrueDepth some Rem, fed, and monoecious. had bad experience with them , lots of squibs in them. So I now use Hornady C D and had no problem with them . Low powered ammo could be very Dangerous. So please be Careful when choosing a ammo. Be sure if you hear a low report fire, Check the barrel for a stuck bullet or jacket.
Lots of numbers, but a really interesting video. Out shooting recently with my fatherinlaw, retired PD, he shot my LCR and was surprised at the recoil. Next time out at the loading bench I may give some light loads a try just for fun.
Lead bullets seem to be the best for really dropping the recoil with light charges. I actually like to use hard cast lead and load data for lead works just fine, but they shoot as clean as jacketed.
Those 2 ounces of difference between a .38 LCR and an alloy J frame make all the difference in the world. In my own tests, I found it made quite a difference in my ability to get the revolver back on target for followup shots.
@@biffdinkley3870 Maybe . Yes , in those ranges 2oz is meaningful , but more on the order of 10% - ish difference .
For " All the Difference in the World " ? Maybe that 15% was just the straw on the camel's back for you , but I would suspect more likely how each gun fit your hand , and their balance in hand was more significant .
If you purchased a .38 revolver and find the recoil abusive even with the lightest loads, you can duplicate the .32 Long exactly with a hand load. Use a 100 grain .38 wadcutter bullet over 2.8 grains of 231 powder. It will produce the same velocity and recoil impulse as the .32 Long being fired in the same gun. Regrettably, this is not a commercial load (although it should be). You will have to roll your own, or find someone to do it for you.
Sorry I have to go to bed I'm beat. I'll watch tomorrow. I know your channel isn't political. I've been watching for two days and leaving comments with everybody else to slam the NRA and go with the GOA. I'm asking everyone to call their favorite manufacturers and tell them leave the NRA or we will leave you. I'm calling Ruger and Henry tomorrow. Watch pops quest in yesterday's video about the NRA. He even has papers from the NRA too the ATF begging for them to check out bumpstocks. I've never belonged to them only the GOA!! I'm tired and mean but I don't want to lose my guns and freedom!! Rich
I'm with you on the NRA. I've been trying to cost them money. They made me mad. Go GOA!
@@Fudmottin I did an NRA membership one time for a year, I think in 2016. It was my first and last time. They hound you daily for money, even if they were good I would still not be a member. Soliciting money by telling you that you will lose everything without them.
Was a member some years ago for a few years. Weekly letters with HEAVY terminology asking for funds (and all the reasons why, threats why, political messes why). Finally quit. Was sick of it. I unsubscribed in every way I know how. I've even moved a couple addresses (for unforseen reasons). Still to this day, periodically I get a renewal notice. I don't even open it. Tear it in half and into the trash. No idea how they get my address, after I've moved and unsubscribed. Electronic stalking I guess? Some way through the State DL registration system?
@@GunSam Yeah, they are relentless. They also sell your email address and spam it with all sorts of crap.
@@GunSam Same reason I quit. I got constant phone calls, emails and snail mail. I don't think they are honest.
Thank you for making this video.
Thank you for all the helpful information. Well done video
Thank you for the compliment. Thanks for watching!
That is pretty darn cool. So that's the CBC you mentioned. Nice to see it.
When I had my niece shooting revolvers, I started her on my Taurus with the Magtech 130gr FMJ standard pressure. She did well with it and then I had her try my 638 airweight. She picked up on the difference immediately. I had to remind her of Newton's 3rd law. I do kinda wish I reviewed her shooting with the J-Frame on site because some simple grip technique remediation would fix things and she would be quite good with the J-Frame. Young eyes can see the sights and targets better. She still did OK, but the recoil management could certainly have been improved.
When I fired these, I would say that the sound report was the same as a .22 as well, maybe even less. It's true that grip technique soaks up recoil. The science behind felt recoil is there, however a 200 lb man gripping the gun to death would have to play into it's true recoil force and velocity, as the numbers calculated would have to be with no grip.
@@GunSam Calculating the free recoil energy in a gun is exactly the same as calculating the muzzle energy of a bullet. There is a bit of a complication when it comes to accounting for the powder charge though as it is also exiting the muzzle at high pressure and acting like a small rocket engine for a brief period of time. It's all down to Newton's 3rd law (which is really implied by the 2nd and 1st). The force you throw out the front is going to have an equal force in the opposite direction. A heavier gun recoils slower so it has less free recoil energy. Bigger grips spread the recoil energy out, so you have less sting in the hands. Rubberized grips can spread that energy over time for even more comfort. There is no need to fight the recoil. In fact, you can't. You can only manage it. That's straight up technique.
I'm no macho man but I can run powerful loads in my J-Frame and my N-Frame. The N-Frame is actually a hell of a lot more comfortable. Having the backstrap exposed doesn't bother me. Now obviously I could shoot .22lr or light .38s a hell of a lot longer before getting tired than I can with magnums. I'm not superman either.
@@GunSam I did a UA-cam search on "low recoil 38 special ammo". You're videos on the subject show up on the first page. The top result is for Hornady Lite, a 90 gr pink tipped .38 Spl load that is in a .38 Spl case and has gotten poor reviews from the two videos I've seen on it. The only upside seems to be that Hornady donates some of the proceeds to breast cancer research.
As far as the components for my attempt go, I'm expecting them on Friday. Weather depending, I could be testing as early (or late depending on how you judge things) as next week. Based on the data and research I've been doing, the most promising powders to use are Unique, Bullseye, and TiteGroup. The latter two would have charge weights within 0.1 gr of each other. The Unique would use a higher charge weight.
I don't see a problem with meeting my velocity goal. My worry is in keeping the spread and standard deviation low as well as staying in safe pressures for an alloy frame .38 Spl J-Frame snubbie. I plan to use factory 130 gr FMJ for my recoil comparison. I don't have anything lighter than that.
@@Fudmottin You will have to remind me again of the particular bullets you were using and what velocities you are going for.
@@GunSam 110 gr Gold Dot SB bullets @ 960 fps. If that proves to still produce too much recoil, I can cut back on the velocities a bit. Jacketed bullets can only be launched so slow before risking squib loads and having wild variations though.
I'm surprised you didn't mention the Hornady. 38 Spl Lites. 90 grains will do the job in addition to your recommendations presented. Very detailed explanation.
To be honest, when I tested the lites I didn't feel less recoil than the others.
@@GunSam I got some in, but will need yo test them out of my Victory Revolver and let you know when I do.
44 special cowboy loads shoot through anything human, and they don't have very much recoil at all.
3-3.5gr Bullseye with a 000 ball. It might have less recoil than a 22. The last time I loaded them into 38 short cases.
Do you have any good load data for Silhouette powder? I have 158 grain lead round nose bullets, 148 grain lead wadcutters (flat on both ends), and berrys 125 grain plated hollow point. I have seen varying info… I’m sheepish about loading pistol ammo.
All steel revolver, 148 HBWC, a couple grains of red dot. Presto.
EXCELLENT INFORMATION
one thing i love about revolvers they dont leave shells, you can use and see different ammo in the cylinder if one chooses to.
more reliable, no jams.
you missfire or get a dud with a revolver you just pull the trigger again.
What if gramma found low recoil shells and ran them thru a lever rifle?
huh, I never thought about shooting .38 colt through a .38 special, good video.
Thanks. Updated vid; ua-cam.com/video/wrgkaP7FjlM/v-deo.html&t=
I wonder if you could load .357 brass with weaker powder or just less powder and get less recoil that way, but without making a mess of the cylinder all the time.
Have you seen Lucky Gunner Ammo's latest video? He's advocating 32 Caliber in the Ruger LCR for low recoil options. Sound in principle perhaps. Also the extra chamber in the cylinder is nice. Perhaps even the ballistics are good. I don't think he's considered the low recoil alternatives that exist for 38/357 snubbies. He certainly made no mention of 38 Short Colt or 38 Long Colt loadings that could be amped up a bit for modern firearms.
Yes, and I commented about how he never mentioned the .357 Magnum has the same family of many cartridges.
Gun Sam _Revolver Aficionado_ How is it that these short cartridges are able to safely reach the forcing cone?
@@robert.colaner I can't think of a reason that they would not be safe. There's a 1/2" jump from .380" to .357" vs a .357 Magnum round. The forcing cone really shouldn't be affected in any way, the chamber taper goes down to the same size before the forcing cone whether it's a .357 Mag, .38 Special, .38 Long Colt or .38 Short Colt.
9mm is .355, the 38 and the 357 are .357. some cast Hard Semi- Wadcutter at 158 grs is a really good hunting round. After firing I get a bullet diameter of .325,inside barrel diameter, so does this mean the the 38/357 are really 32 caliber?
The 200 gr, Semi-Wadcutter HP for a defensive load. The "FBI" load.
As for the 357 there are just so many factory loads to choose from, the whole family of 38 and +P stuff and then to step-up and to be serious the 357 mag. ammo, from the solids to the HP's.
If you are a Reloader, that opens up a really big world for this class of 38/357 ammo, powders and bullet choices galore. In two of my reloading manuals the largest section is the 38/357 section.
I would like a 30 Carbine converted to 357 mag and then there is the Ruger Bolt Action that puts the 357, because of the long barrel, into the 30-30 class of Deer Hunting rounds. 158gr, Hard Semi Wadcutter loaded to about 1350 FPS.
Henry has a 38/357 Lever action, too.
Whenever I measure recovered .357 or .38 Special bullets the unexpanded portion usually measures from .352" to .357", some of the low numbers are probably the rifling cuts where my caliper lands. .325" doesn't sound right unless they are lead and losing a lot of lead in the bore, or you have an extremely out of spec bore.
@@GunSam Yes you are right...I cleaned the barrel,ran a brush through it then swabbed it till the patch came through clean. Then with a digital caliper measured the bore at the muzzle, .353 was what I got. Yup, clean the thing first then measure.
I own some older (pre-1960s) S&Ws, so I'm always on the lookout for good non-+P options.
I've been pleasantly surprised by the ARX Inceptor round. Minimal recoil, yet somehow shoots well to POA. 130g Winchester Defend is pretty mild, with the same projectile as the PDX1.
I personally had bad luck with the ARX ammo as it fragmented in the bore, made buckshot on paper.
Police records show that self defense distances for concealed carry vary from 2-60 feet. At 60 feet would a wadcutter be less accurate than a semi wadcutter or hollow point? Let me explain my situation. I have had to defend myself on 3 occasions in the past before I had the ability to carry. In each case the distance I encountered physical force was about 5 feet. I like wheelguns far more for this type of situation and in general defensive situations. I don't want a body pushing a slide out of battery or the shot sucking fabric into the gun and causing malfunction. I like to carry 2 wheel guns and practice NY reloads rather than carry a high cap semi auto. I carry iwb strong side and pocket carry weak side. The real intended point though for the offhand is if my strong hand is incompacitated and I need to draw weak side or my strong arm is grabbed or held I can push the smaller dao snubby into the belly and shoot off some of those hst loads. But let's say I run out of ammo in my 4", do you think the hsts could be shot accurately under stress out to 10-15 yards out of a dao ultra lite?
I didn't realize they were still loading .38 Short Colt. Who does that? My guess is Fiocchi. Maybe Starline if you want new brass.
Remington loads it alone with .32 S&W. Part of their classic Wheelgun line of ammo.
Is there a lot of recall in a 40 revolver . You know the cowboy guns like they used to use in the old west.
try 2.3 traiboss
on a 148 HBWC
low recoil and very accurate at 50 yards
thank you for this very informative video
Just viewed this low recoil video on options for the .38 cal. revolver. I'm 75 and do suffer from hand arthritis. Up until about 2 years ago, I was fine doing my normal range work with standard velocity .38's. However this past winter has had it's toll on my hand pain when shooting standard loads.
I immediately tried to find some low powered .38 shorts and/or even .38 wadcutter ammunition, but was unable to find anything at 4 local gun dealers. I was told by them all that ammunition today is very difficult to come by and that most available are the standard or high powered variations, regardless of the caliber. Some didn't even know that they still make .32 S & W long guns & ammo!
I found one box of .38 semi-wadcutters which I bought and have yet to try out. I have a feeling that these will not be much better than standard full jacketed loads, but I'll try them this weekend. Looks like I may not have an option to stay with my SP101. I may just have to downgrade to a .22 cal. revolver instead. Any thoughts?
Any .327 Federal Magnum revolver will fire .32 S&W Long and I even fired regular .32 S&W through my .327 revolver fine and it was like shooting a bb gun. With .357/.38 Special I will sometimes shoot .38 Short Colt which is the same as .38 Special Short. Some of the semi wadcutter ammo is pretty light, like Federal is light for sure. If you can order online you can find pretty much anything you want. I know some people are in states that do not allow online orders of ammo but that's where I get all of my ammo. Also I know that the Fiocchi wadcutters are loaded lighter than most other wadcutters, so the recoil with those should be a like a .22 in a SP101.
@@GunSam Thank you for that information. I've never tried to order ammunition online as it still has to go to a local dealer before I get it (at least that's how it is with guns). And I'm not sure what a dealer would charge me "extra" for receiving product outside his distribution chain. However, I will certainly look into that. Thanks again!
@@johnwilliams9058 I don't know your state's laws, but ammo ships right to your door in most places.
An old standby, a j frame with full wad cutters. Very soft shooting and a 9mm hole. Simple
Good info,thanks!!
A heavier version of a J-frame would be a Ruger SP101 without gaining the physical size.
The S&W 640 and the like truly are a heavy J-frame!
Right. But physically larger than the SP101.
@@GunSam I've got a couple of 640s in 38 Special before they switched over to 357. One is even rated +P+ inside the frame.
That's probably pressures similar to the entry-level .357 mag. But, nowhere near handling red-line .357 all day long without an issue (for instance).
@Voice of Reason Slightly larger perhaps, but in a compact 5shot, how much larger? I know it's heavier.
Problem is most of the folks that want low recoil want everything lighter , low weight pistols, not the heavy stainless police pistols but very few want them
So……. Steel framed snub nosed revolver with little .38’s? I’m in 🤠
I had the same idea with .32 long. You get the centerfire reliability with minimal recoil. They still make .32 long ammo, usually very soft shooting wadcutters. You can shoot them in a .327 Ruger SP 101 for a really mild-shooting experience. You can also pick up .33 long chambered revolvers cheap because of the unpopularity of the cartridge.
I think that even .32 ACP will fire in them as well. I forgot the specifics, but it's semi rimmed and close enough to the chamber size, that people have been doing it for a long time in the .312" bore revolvers like .327 .32 long, .32 H&R etc.
The problem with .32ACP is that it's pressure max is higher than .32 long. So, a .32H&R magnum or .327 Federal magnum revolver can handle the pressure, but a .32 long may not. Many .32 long revolvers were top break with weak frames. That is why the .32 long wad cutter factory loads are so weak. If you have a solid framed .32 long revolver, it can take rounds loaded a lot hotter than that.
I know that you going to Sam do not like the Federal HST 38 + p..BUT and all the ballistic tests I've seen in FBI organic gel with denim covered.. the HST has 13 in of penetration and fully expands it has extremely light recoil as like you say in this video the huge wide mouth hollow point is seated deep in the case producing + p velocities without adding more powder.. in my 11 oz 342 centennial 38 the HST recoils extremely mild... Much much less felt recoil then the Hornady.. critical defense lite...95 gr
The HST .38+P is discontinued now. I just think there was a lot wrong with it.
@@GunSam I just went on Federal website... The federal HST micro 38 130 gr +p .. does NOT say it's discontinued on their website? .. wondering where you got the information that it was discontinued???
I use the analogy of firing a shotgun off of the Battleship N.J. then firing it off of a canoe.
I love that!!
Also when speaking of recoil... my aunt (never been into guns at all) decided she wanted a carry gun a few months back. So we met at the gun store and they talked her into a glock 43. While dealing with her ownership paperwork from her state she got to shoot my dads kahr cw9 and my lcr 357 wiith 38s. While shooting the kahr it kept malfunctioning becuase she couldnt hold it tight enough to hold it in place to let the slide reoil back properly, needles to say she hated it. After shooting my lcr (which she did much better with) she called the gun shop and made the switch to an lcr. Sorry for the long story but alot of people dont think about that with new, elderly or disabled shooters.
I have seen it myself. I even torture tested my old Glock 36 all the time, tried two finger grips even, it was 100% reliable. First time my GF shot it...shot one to two, jam. Clear it, next shot...jam, clear...next shot jam. She ended up with a S&W Bodyguard .38 in the end.
Had the same situation... elderly relative without a lot of hand strength. The LCR trigger for their centerfires is miles better than a modern J frame out of the box.
Keeping this simple.... excessive case capacity does two things... enables the powder to lay forward of the primer or anywhere except against it. The primer then drives the bullet and the unburned powder out the barrel greatly reducing pressure. Has nothing to do with powder charge just too much room in case. Also re pressure.... yes increase in pressure in a small case but the pulse is very short. So less powder equals less total pressure pulse, more powder equals a longer pressure rise and pulse as it takes longer to burn. Now you know everything. PS... a primer will drive a bullet out as well just too short of a pulse of pressure and too little to do anything else. I digress.......
How do publish a 20 minute video without ever mentioning the specific guns you are comparing?
Sorry, 11 minute video.
Can you damage a .357 Magnum revolver by firing .38 Super rounds? Can you please explain why or why not? Thank you.
The dimensions are different, I don't think they would even fit the chambers right. I see no reason to even try as its a high pressure round, more so than .357 mag so its probably a bad idea even if it does fit.
Depends on the individual gun . The pressure spec for .38Super is 35k psi , same as .357 ( The similar looking 9x23 Win is way higher .)
The Semi Rim on the Super may or may not adequately support the round in your revolver chamber . The thinner Semi Rim on the Super may or may not allow your firing pin to reliably set it off .
The Super case will noticeably swell in the .357 chamber, but usually not split .
But as Gun Sam noted , there is no good reason to want to do this on purpose .
I cant find a video where your tried 158gr lead semi-wadcutter hollow point. They where popular with the FBI when they had .38 revolvers.
I have tested them a few times.
The 158 LHP was the single most popular LE round during the later Revolver Era , with the Treasury Load second , ( and every other .38 load combined in third ) .
And still an excellent performing round to this day .
Can you cut 38 special cases down to make your own 38 shortsleeved?
Shorts not shortsleeved
I believe so.
@@couerleroi1 you may run into issues with the inner wall of the case being tapered. I bought a bunch of 38 short cases from Starline several years ago just for my mouse farts loads.
This is a good video. The heavy gun wins. I have a favor to ask of you relating to a video you made about the Federal .38 Special 110 grain hydra shok low recoil personal defense load. I have searched your videos and I can not find it. If you could reply with a link to it I would appreciate it. I want to include it in my comments at another gun channel if you don't mind. In your video you commented as to how well it performed with such little felt recoil.
Thank you. Steve
Thanks. The test I did with it is an older one: ua-cam.com/video/343pyHRPCdA/v-deo.html&t=
so with the smaller revolver you have there how is the recoil with your suggested ammo?? I don't think wifey would like to carry around a dirty harry gun, so the larger revolver is not an option. I've been looking for a used 22wmr lcr and now the .380 ez from SW. but what you have here might be an option
My revolver is 11 oz so there's just a little recoil. What I find to be the best balance of light weight but still handling recoil is something in the 17 oz range like magnum the Ruger LCR's. There's a .357 Mag and .327 Federal Mag in those, and they are better than the .38 Special only version as they are 4 oz heavier. Using a low end load like in this video would work great in the .357 Mag version, and in .327 Magnum the .32 H&R mag and .32 S&W Long will fire in that and have even less recoil than these low end .38 Special rounds.
what about the model60 j frame? wasn't it stainless?
Could you please post a link to the recoil calculator you used? I'd like to check some loads myself. Thanks!
I believe I used this one: www.shooterscalculator.com/recoil-calculator.php but if you just google "bullet recoil calculator" there are a ton of sites with them and they are all the same.
@@GunSam Thanks brother!
A good K or L frame will take the recoil!
Bigger diameter equals larger wound channel. That matters in life or death scenarios.
But hollow points create that same effect. Now what larger bullets often do better than smaller is they typically pack more momentum, which will pull it through ribs and whatnot better than light expanding bullets.
@@GunSam not denying that. My comment was specifically "aimed" to affirm that .38 Caliber Projectiles do more damage than .22 LR/Magnum. Hollow points are better of course, but for some smaller calibers such as .32acp/.25acp, penetration is more important.
Wasn't disagreeing with you just putting my $0.02 in!
I want a 32 or a 38 revolver so bad
Old people and the disabled should see this video before they purchase a gun. I'm gonna show it to Grandma because she's getting old and that 12 guage double is just to big .
I suppose it depends on the disability. I would say it's more of a hand strength thing that might cause issues.
Have you ever had a revolver that when you load it and then open the cylinder and push the ejector rod one of the bullets goes in front of the extractor star and the other 4 bullets eject fine but the other 1 is in front of the extractor star what do you think i should do?thanks
I have only had that happen when I shot some .32 ACP in the LCR, being a semi rimmed there wasn't enough. I don't know what cartridge you are having an issue with but i'd try all ammo brands and rule out cases/rims that are out of spec before I go to the next step at diagnosing the issue.
@@GunSam It is a 38 special round i had it happen once before on a Kimber K6S and i just had it happen again on a new revolver Rock Island Armory when you load the rounds and then you push the ejector rod to release the rounds one of the rounds goes in front of the ejector star so i have to push the ejector rod all the way and pry the round out.
@@keithgregory7937 I'm not an expert on extractor stars, but it's possible it's slightly out of spec. Maybe the company can send you a new extractor star.
Can I use 38 short colt data to reload 38 special short case is little smaller OAL is longer? Or can you suggest a 125 gr load.
Special short is just a little longer brass, so a max charge for .38 short colt should work well as long as the bullet isn't seated too deep or not deep enough, which is difficult seeing its an unknown load. If you get a bullet with a cannelure than great, no callelure might need some experimentation. I have reloaded 93 gr non canellure LRN bullets and I had to barely crimp, as crimping into bullet too much caused the bullets to fall out as the roll crimp released the pressure below the case mouth. Id say when loading don't over flare case mouth and it shouldn't need a crimp.
HELP! If I get a snub nose revolver S&W 640 and use .38+p rounds, will it handle recoil better than an S&W 642? I intend to Concealed carry this and am wondering if this plan is viable?
Thanks
The 640 is heavier so yes it will handle recoil better. I have a Taurus 605 that weighs 21 oz on my scale and a 342pd that weighs 11 oz on my scale, the recoil is cut in half with the Taurus.
Do you get that 200 gr bullet from Badman Bullets?
Thanks
I have no idea where to get these. My friend made them for me with .35 Remington rifle bullet molds. So basically, if you can find those rifle bullets in lead (don't use jacketed) you basically have these.
So convoluted i didn't keep up. So will a 38 sw fit and fire from a 38 special? Thats all I want to know.
The .38 S&W "can" fit and fire from a .38 Special or .357 Magnum revolver, but only if the particular revolver in question is loose in tolerance. The .38 S&W is slightly fatter than the .38/.357 but only by a tiny amount, and the pressure is lower than .38 Special, so if it will fit it will fire fine. But you never know if your particular revolver will or will not fit a .38 S&W until you try it.
@@GunSam thank you for your insight.
@@GunSam I had a cheap FIE 38 snubnose 38 special that would chamber and fire the 38 S&W round. But most 38 special revolves I've had would not.
Gee, i was worried the guns were loaded before you showed me.
.38 feels like a 22 with a 5" Chiappa Rhino
go cubs go
I was just wanting some sources on light load 38's; not all the non related info; thanks anyway.
The Federal Hydrashok 110 gr low recoil is probably the best light .38 Special, it's a standard pressure but still does well.
after this vid I just subbed...now I know a lot more lol
Thank you. I may have to do a similar video with the .32 caliber revolver.
Gun Sam _Revolver Aficionado_ dang omg ...I kinda like those .32 xd
I like 32 for recoil sensitive shooters as well. A 32SW Long with 95 grain wadcutter is going to penetrate deep and the recoil is very soft, even in a snub.
I see you are a hand loader. Do you go on The Reloaders Network? I'd be interested in some of your low recoil hand loads for 38.
I have heard of the reloader's network but i'm not really that familiar with them.
@@GunSam You can find them on the web or we have a more interactive chat group on Slack. There's a lot of content creators there as well as regular reloaders. I've learned a lot from being able to talk to some very experienced reloaders directly. You should check it out. Now that UA-cam is not allowing reloading videos, I'm sure they would host content for you if you wanted to make those kind of videos.
What most people do not understand is the strength differences between men and women. As a reference I practiced medicine for many years and have a medical degree. Women have only about 55% of the upper body strength a man does. Since most men have trouble with this concept, that is roughly that of an average 11 y/o (maybe 12 at best) boy from a strength perspective. So when you recommend a weapon to someone ask yourself if you think a 11 y/o could handle it physically. Also keep in mind that this person is going to get older and weaker in the future so they need to be able to handle the weapon easily in the future as well. Men start their decline physically around age 23 (exceptions of course exist), a woman’s decline starts in their late teens, which is why Olympic gymnasts (strongest athletes pound for pound) are at the ages they are when they compete. After the age of 30 the decline goes faster. So something to think about when recommending a gun to carry for a 45 year old woman to carry for the next 15 years.
Would it help to port a Kimber k6 using only plus p?
The defeats the purpose of +p.
Lee has a 105gr swc mould.
Acme makes them premade semi wad cutters.
Lee has a 000 mould too.
I’m a newbie and I have no idea what you are saying. Just tell me a brand and how much powder grains. Sorry. I’m ignorant.
You will have to explain what you mean. I think you're asking for a specific ammo and mean bullet grains. Typically any .38 Special ammo that has a bullet weight of 90 or 110 gr that does NOT have (+P) on the box, is going to be low recoil. Also .38 Special 148 gr wadcutters of most types are low in recoil as well. Usually heavier bullet grains means more recoil but the wadcutter is the exception. Stay away from (+P) and bullet weights that are 140-158 gr and go with 90 and 100 gr an you will do fine.
Gun Sam _Revolver Aficionado_ Yes, I can understand that! I’ll ask for that when buying. Thanks for your quick response. I just bought a Ruger lcr 38spl +P.
What exactly is the silver revolver?
It's stainless steel. Smith and Wesson 686
Never shot plus p but my gun is full of them.
What is wadcutters?
A wadcutter is just a bullet with a flat nose, the bullet looks like you took a round-nose bullet and just sliced off the nose where it starts to round off. Used to be used for target shooting because it makes a big hole on paper targets.
A semi-wadcutter is similar except imagine you "sliced" the bullet nose after it starts curving, maybe halfway to the nose.
They also can be a good man-stopper round because the flat face will do a lot of tissue damage vs a round nose full metal jacket bullet.
One could use a .38 Special wadcutter for self defense as 1. Revolvers are very reliable and simple, and 2. It would have a huge impact on a person, like a lot of high-cost super duper ammo is trying to do, and 3. A .38 can be very comfortable to shoot without a huge amount of recoil.
The downside would be it probably isn't great at penetrating things like car doors and windshields. But virtually ideal and low cost for someone who considers the most likely need to be against one or two ordinary assailants, i.e., nobody wearing body armor or anything like that.
@@keithgraham9547 spot on my man spot on!
@@williamsample2631 Ammo shortage right now with coronavirus, hard to find most calibers. I had shot a box of 380 a week ago on one of the first nice days of spring.
Other than Hornady Critical Defense at about $1.40/shot, which is crazy, that store is incredibly high,they had a few boxes of Winchester "FMJ Service Grade" at 40 cents/round.
I have never seen these. The bullet is actually flat-nosed like a semi-wadcutter.
I haven't shot any yet, but assuming they run only in my Glock 42, they could be the ideal combination practice and carry round!
I may need to set up a meat target to find out.
@@williamsample2631 Hi again. I tried shooting those 380acp semi wadcutter. Will never buy them again. Several jams of one kind or another. I think the shortened nose made them not want to feed.
Have you ever cut .357mag cases down to 9mm case capacity and loaded them like a 9mm? In snubbies the 9mm out performs most .357mag loads with mild .38 like recoil.
No, however I have with .38 Short Colt brass lol...same length as 9mm. Not loaded hot but definitely faster, like 158 gr LRN 1,000 FPS instead of .38 Special cases at 700 FPS. But I don't know where you get 9mm outperforms .357 Mag in snubbies. Maybe on fast shooting it outperforms, but most overage .357 Mag loads are up there 450-480 ft lbs energy in a 2" barrel. I can't get anywhere even near there even in a 4" 9mm.
1. Get a Lee loader
2. Buy a bullet puller
3. Get a scale
4.take a part bullets and lower charge by 1/3
5. Go back to the range and thank me Later
That's literally the least efficient way to do something like that.