Wanted everyone to know I JUST scored a box of the new Hornady Critical Defense .327 Federal Magnum! I will probably let that one skip my order of planned tests to the front of the line ASAP.
Also if anyone wondered about this wadcutter test, what I had to do was load many charges and chronograph them all before the video started, write down about what the averages were then use the charges that had overlapping velocity averages. I used TiteGroup powder as I know it like the back of my hand, and with traditional seat used in grains: 3.0, 3.3, 3.4, and 3.5. For the inverted seat I used 3.3, 3.6, 3.7 and 3.8. The rounds used in the ballistic test were if I remember right, traditional seat 3.4 gr and invert seat 3.8 gr. The OAL was flush with case mouth (1.160") with the traditional seat and 1.300" with the inverted seat, primers were CCI 500.
Back in the 80's when I was reloading my 38 Charger Arms, Elmer Keith when writing for Guns And Ammo, recommended that for a.38 special to be reliable stopper, you needed to load.The hollow base wadcutter backwards with 5 grains of Red Dot. He said that this sound then give you about 1100 fps out of a two inch without over penetration. I completely blew the head off a Jack rabbit at 30 feet. If.You don't know who Elmer Keith was, look him up as he was the one who developed the 44 mag.
He also blew up several guns with hot rod loads like that. Some .357 mag loads don't get much more than 1100 fps out of a 2" barrel so a .38 at that velocity would be really hot.
Keith was a pioneer. I remember reading his articles. I have a couple of his books, "Hell, I Was There", and "Sixguns by Keith". He was a cowboy and a tough customer in his younger days, and a fellow Idahoan. The shooting community lost an icon when he passed.
Tangentially related: berry's copper plating is not as secure as a fmj so when I was shooting them from a ported barrel I was getting bits of copper shaving off in the ports and smacking people standing next to me at the range. Good thing that range has mandatory eye protection. (Nobody was hurt, the copper shavings where too small to do anything but feel like a spark falling on you.)
Thank you for the video. Brings back some memories. My father used to load Speer 148g lead HBWC and I remember they were crazy when you hit something. He loaded them in "Super Vel" brass for any old timers looking at the comments.
About the same results I saw in the late '80s thru early '90s. I used a 3" barreled gp100 and at 25 yards I had the same and sometimes better accuracy when inverted. I used lead wc. I saw more expansion, but then again, it was lead. Good test - glad you posted!
I tested in the past with straight lead inverted wadcutters and got I believe .72" diameter expansion, however the trade off is I caught the bullet in jug one rather than the typical 3-4 like most handgun ammo. In my opinion the best performing wadcutter is a straight lead traditionally seated forward facing wadcutter. They penetrate well and still deform to almost .500" when fired at 700 FPS, I would imagine faster would give 1.5 times deformation matching 1.5 times expansion diameter of the standard of hollow point expansion.
Decades ago I had a reloading ammo business. I used 148 grain hollow based wadcutters, with a gas check, loaded with about 3 gr of 2400, a CCI 550 primer and Browning brass to sell as self defense loads for .38 specials. I could never keep enough of them in stock, they sold as fast as I made them. One customer shot a raccoon that attacked him and it nearly blew the critter in two. My testing of the rounds, ( in wet telephone books) gave excellent expansion at 7 yards. In a .357 magnum I used a different powder and the impact on books was devastating!
We used to load swaged lead hollow-base wadcutters inverted back in the day (early 1980s) and test them against water-filled jugs. Unlike the plated variety, the soft, swaged lead bullets gave impressive expansion, some close to double their original .358 diameter, and they made a pretty fun show of blowing up the jugs in the process. We got hold of some of the first hydra-shok bullets available to hand loaders back then - they were essentially a swaged lead hollow-base wadcutter with a raised post in the middle of the hollow part. That was years before hydra-shok bullets were jacketed or sold as loaded ammo like they are today. If you can find some non-plated HB wadcutters, you might consider trying that experiment again with those. Nice video! Cheers.
The original reversed hollow base wadcutter loads were usually swaged lead and soft. Problem they had on impact was uneven and asymmetrical expansion which skewed their penetration path. There was a company called Taurus bullets, not related to the gun company, that added a post in the center of the hollow cavity. They were still seated flush to the case mouth. The company name was later changed to Albert bullets. The design was later sold and became Hydra shok. I still have a box of ammo loaded with the original HBWC bullet with the center post. The company that loaded that ammo was Suffolk County Ammo in L.I. N.Y.
In the late 60's, as a HCSO Deputy, I Ioaded those soft lead swaged HBWCs, inverted, in a J frame back up, for very close encounters of the worst kind.
Police used to load 38 hollow point semi wad cutters (FBI Load) in their 38 spl revolvers. Gas checked reversed hollow base wad cutters were loaded in the snubs used by detectives and as bugs at least in Los Angeles. That was over 60 years ago.
Back in the early 1980s I had a friend load me some reversed hollowbase wadcutters to shoot armadillo with. This was in a Smith &Wesson 686 with a 6 inch barrel. This was very effective at ranges up to about 15 yards. I still have a few left as well as some 38 shotshells loaded back in the early 1970s I truly enjoyed your video. Have a great day and a better tomorrow.
Sam, One of your comprehensive presentations to date. As to the HBWC bullet you utilized, I realize that you selected the same one to test against each other to equalize that factor. Were a softer lead alloy used at the same velocity loading greater expansion with an inverse HBWC bullet may be possible. There might be greater barrel leading as a result, however I'd concern myself with that issue well after a self-defense incident. Kudos on creating this comparative test with realistic performance parameters.
Well I can tell you from a test I've done... Yes, if you boost that inverted to .357 performance it will get more expansion. However, it needs to be out of a carbine or a 6 1/2 to 8 inch barrel to really show what it can do. In traditional revolvers, it doesnt expand better than other JHP designs and certainly doesnt penetrate better either. I had bought some 200gr JHP's once, which were a .356 diamater cavity. Essentially nearly the same as an inversed wadcutter but allowing for more case capacity. These performed nearly identical to inverse wadcutters at .357 velocities. I found that in anything less than a 6 1/2 inch barrel and performance was abysmal. Out of a carbine, I managed to get around 14 inches of penetration but expansion was nearly 100% maximum and was almost 2x original diameter. But it couldnt achieve that in standard snub nose or 4 inch barrels. 6 1/2 it would show signs of getting good expansion but again as stated, compared to other JHP options it's certainly no better and not worth the trouble. However this does have me wondering about taking a .32 S&W Long 100gr wadcutter, inverting it into a .327 Federal Magnum case and stepping it up. That might actually give it some decent expansion and make for a cheap JHP to reload if .327 is in short supply.
I always enjoy your snubby videos, no exception here. I loaded some forward facing hollow wadcutters but had some difficulty seating them. Still I liked the results , and will work to improve the process.
I would like to see you take this experiment further. Maybe crimping, or scoring the hollow end. how about different barrel lengths? A carbine maybe? While I’m not exactly a fan of your test medium setup, I HIGHLY recommend you don’t change ANYTHING about it. You don’t want to redo what you’ve already done, so don’t change that variable. But I would also like to see different distances as well. I’m quite intrigued with this experiment. There’s a lot to explore. Thank you for this work.
Hey Sam. Interesting test very much appreciated it. I use to load 148 hard cast reversed hollow base wad cutters back in the 1960s, had no hollow points at that time. Results were about the same as your test. Have you tested the Federal HST 38 special plus p 130 gr JHP. I found very good result with this round and is now my carry round for my Smith 642. Great channel by the way. Thank you.
Thanks. Yes I tested the HST. Very efficient round for what you get, about the recoil of a .380 but more damage. In my testing the expansion was huge and penetration low, but again for what it's working with it did well.
Thanks for the reply. Ya penetration wasn't the 18 inches but I thought the overall 12 inches was okay. It will definitely stop an Agressor. Thanks again.
The reversed HBWC idea is about as old as the HBWC. When I experimented with this decades ago, I learned accuracy/stability and terminal performance vary greatly with bullet, load and gun. If you intend to carry these, test the exact load you intend to carry, in the gun you carry.
i love your tests THANK YOU! in a real world scenario, what .38 round would you rely on?? i ask because your knowledge is greater than mine, even watching your videos you grasp the fundamentals better than i could. ive been carrying the HST micro rounds in my LCR.
Thanks. HST is a decent round for what it is as the powder charge is low, therefore very low recoil and flash and still decent energy. Nothing wrong with it, however I have seen better penetration with others. In my .38 Special snub nose I carry the Federal Hydrashok 129 gr+P because I felt like it performed the best overall.
@@GunSam As a matter of fact, I'm down to my last 15 rounds of the 129 grain. I was able to get a box of the Hornady 110 grain @ 1190fps. Haven't tried it yet. I'm waiting for more Remington 125 SJHP+p. I USED TO be able to buy it at Wal-Mart...LMFAO.
@@GunSam Did Federal recently only start using +P for this round? If you look at Lucky gunner page of gel tests no +P mentioned. Quite a difference out of a 2 vs 4 "barrel. www.luckygunner.com/labs/revolver-ballistics-test/
I hope you keep making videos and it gets to the point to where you can get you some ballistic gel. Your videos were actually informative and you definitely have potential 👍🏽
I would be very curious to see you run the identical tests, with the same snubby, shooting Federal’s Personal Defense HST Micro 38 Special +P. (I’ve found it to be fairly accurate in my S&W 442, and about the maximum recoil I can manage out of that light gun.)
I ran a similar test into water with Speer HBWC and plated HBWC. 4" 38Spl. The lead Speer flattened out a lot. The plated did not. In a 357, the plated bullet expanded very well.
iI appreciate your videos and was hoping you would do one on HBWCs and reversing them. I heard about this from a police officer I knew in the 1960s. I never used this trick in the .38, but have used it in the .32 H&r Mag with good results. I was experimenting with putting a gas check (backwards) over the powder charge and the loading the reversed HBWC on top. it seemed promising, but Lyman stopped making gas checks and, while you can use Hornady GCs it's a pain to get them straight and right.
Thanks for watching. I did this test before but got totally different results, Hornady lead wadcutter, expanded to double diameter but under penetrated. This one didn't expand really at all. I just need to find the middle ground.
I've been shooting cast hbwc since the summer of 56, never shot many at paper but in my old (even then) .38 s&w they worked great on rats and groundhogs. Yes I shot a lot of groundhogs off the tractor at 50 or less, some a bit more. What the heck is a .327? Reversed always reversed. No I'm not that old, I was 10 in 56.
haha I wasn't born till 1980 and my birthday cake would burn down the house. Face it you're old lol. The .327 Federal Magnum is a Super Magnum made off the .32 H&R Magnum which is a Magnum of .32 S&W Long.
Good vid as usual. I've just loaded some 357 mag cases with inverted WC bullets 148 gr, and the powder of the 357 magnum. Just to know how it will perform. Never tested but I guess huge expansion and shallow penetration.
Excellent video!! I wouldn't want to get shot by either round. I don't worry about 25 yards anymore just 3 feet and they would be perfect. Did you load them yourself? Have a great day!! Ruger Rich
Thank you. Yes I loaded them myself. My original experiment was a year ago with lead WC's. so I started from there and started to up the powder charges and check for pressure signs. These turned out well in my opinion. I could load hotter but they weren't too bad as is.
@@GunSam they were great. I've never hand loaded and now with my hands so bad I doubt I ever will. But I saw a computerized one that could load any round. I see on gunbroker.com Winchester 32 specials for sale so I looked up the ballistics and that's one heck of a round. I love the antique Winchesters and colt revolvers. I'll buy you a computerized one for you when my lottery check comes in. ( lol) Ruger Rich
@@GunSam just want to let you know, your governor is a goo goo head!! That's an old south Jersey Italian saying. Also I saw the perfect pistol for you, a sig p226 x5 classic custom shop job. It's beautiful and it's only 20,000 dollars. I have a dollar saved up so far. ( lol). Ruger Rich
Please watch my original video if you get a chance, shows the difficulty in getting the right bullet for these loads. ua-cam.com/video/5vJ-36kcEuA/v-deo.html&t
I believe your lack of expansion is due to using Berrys plated HBWCs. I've seen another You Tube video, same bullets, same results. These are great target bullets but I think the plating affects the ductile characteristics of the bullet, making it less likely to expand. In target shooting, this is a good thing where we don't want the skirts to separate, but not here loaded ass backwards. I'd suggest using Hornady or Speer HBWCs, I think you'll get different results. I used to swage my own HBWCs out of lead wire, and just for fun made some .44 versions of the old Kynoch .455 Manstopper bullet -- essentailly a double-ended soft lead HBWC. Devastating bullet at .455 velocities (as were my .44 versions) so I know from experience the softer lead HBWCs *will* expand at quite moderate velocities.
Ok... my handloads.... for an old guy I like to experiment. With speer HB 148 wadcutters loaded upside down get around 900 fps from a 5" barrel (old 28) I went a bit tech (for me) and boiled the lube off the speers. At that point I put 2 coats of HT (green color if it makes any diff) I shot em into wet newsprint (low tech again) Reason is I found the normal soft lead wadcutters just basically blew apart at even 900 fps What is extremely cool from my short and not that scientific test is.... that the Hi-Tech coated bullets mushroomed almost textbook and retained 90%? of their weight. They also had more penetration. Coated bullets be they HT or powder coat will have more velocity than any jacketed or plated bullet with the same powder charge. You might try em. I would not send you loaded ammo but I could send you some coated bullets for you to handload and try. Works with all my cast bullets. Hard cast 45 acp 200 grain semi wadcutters coated with HT are beasts! At a little over 950 fps they hit most things with noticeable uh... 'smash' I recovered a few from the berms and they look pretty decent still .... And the barrels on your guns are easy to clean. It is my go too 45 acp round.
About 44 years ago I was loading inverted Speer lead HBWC. I found expansion inconsistent, some bullets were not stable and keyholed. Back then, I had only a Smith & Wesson. I have been thinking of repeating the experiment and including a Ruger Blackhawk and a Python, to see what effect the different twist rates have on stability and accuracy. I suspect the 1-in-14 twist in my old Python would show some improvement.
Thanks. I tested them at 960 FPS and the only change was the expansion went up to .458". From my understanding you have to be careful with wadcutters too fast as because the centers are not thick from such a hollow cavity, you can blow the centers out and leave the skirts in the barrel and essentially have a squib the next round.
Because there's less case capacity inverted, so there's no exact load data. That means I have to make my own load data using bullet base line up compared to something else, so this is just the overall length they come to. Plus it makes it easy to tell the difference between the regular ones and inverted.
Thanks RE: Berry / plated bullets I have found if the crimp is too deep , between the crimp cut & rifling .. you end up with very inaccurate bullets >> the plate came out like AIR BRAKEs on a bomb or jet . I didn't get it till I found a slug in a jug ( 44 sp ) . I started to use them like round nose 45 long Colt , set them deep crimp over ojive . Once you learn how to use them , they are OK . I may just go back to lead and or low cost JHP like Hornady HAP bullets . RE all lead .. don't buy bevel base , flat base or just slightly rounded base is WAY better & less lead in the barrel .
@@GunSam I tried to see your crimp .. it looks to be light enough !! I was used to crimping SWCs & JHP in the groove .. too much crimp for Plated Berrys .
@@danoneill2846 For inverted seating I didn't do much mouth flare so that they seat really tight before crimp. Then I did roll crimp, but just barely as to not release the lower friction the taper hold had on the bullet.
Thank you. I am not really sure to be honest. I think maybe a 3" revolver of high quality like a Smith performance center or Kimber might be a good gun. I wouldn't mine a 1911 too as I have none as of yet.
The hollow cavity of a HB wadcutter when loaded conventionally become part of case capacity. When you rverse the WC you loose that effectively getting a smaller case and some higher pressure. I wonder to what degree that adds velocity to reversed wad cutters? I guess you seated them out a little to compensate.
thanks for that test. have you ever tested Winchester WinClean Ammunition 38 Special 125 Grain Jacketed Soft Point in a snub nose? not a lot of recoil, seem to be accurate.
Probably the inference about inverted WC projectiles is due to the fact the CG of the bullet is shifted to the rear, and with the increased drag on that hollow nose, it may have a tendency to destabilize and wobble, turning end-to-end given enough time.
Might need to do a 100 yards test lol. From what I have always heard, weight in the rear stabilizes a bullet more than in the front, however the hollow cavity would be suspect being such a flat face in the wind.
@@GunSam You might be right about where the CG of the projectile factors, front to back. Also the cylinder is spinning at a pretty rapid RPM which was obviously for stabilization in the first place. Just thinking out loud...
Hello, interesting video. I have a question: doesn't inverting a wad cutter, so putting the flat side toward the powder, increase the pressure, by decreasing the space in the case? I'm wondering, since you plan to push the bullet at .357 speed.
Yes, it will a bit. When we are talking lets say really low starting charges, this makes no difference at all if both loaded flush to the case mouth but when we start to go hotter it does matter. So basically what I do when I load hotter inverted wadcutters is I will lay out something of close size with known reload data, lets say a 158 gr JHP and will lay that next to a case with the case mouth and cannelure lined up, then I will place the inverted wadcutter next to the case as well and line up the bases of the two bullets. I will then record what the overall length will be with my calipers. In my example what a 158 gr JHP would measure in a .357 Magnum case would be 1.590" overall length but the inverted 148 gr wadcutter with same base depth will make the overall length of 1.535". Now as far as charges go, I still have to be careful as there is no cannelure to roll crimp into the wadcutter so I have to basically load them with almost no mouth flares so that there's enough friction holding the bullets in place, and also use a lower than max charge to prevent the remaining rounds from creeping out of the cases under recoil.
I have done two tests on 200 gr, it depends on the bullet shape. A rifle bullet like a cast .35 Remington loaded into .38 Special will tumble greatly, but the more of a ball nose 200 gr LRN will not tumble.
When I shot jugs with these I got basically no expansion. Only seen expansion with the softer Hornady bullets. Edit: even loaded to 357 spec I only got negligible deformation of the round and it stopped in jug 4.
2:48 No, the 38 Special was designed for smokeless powder. The reason why it is so long is to prevent it being loaded into a 38 Colt revolver. The reason many of the manufacturers loaded black powder into almost everything is that it was cheaper. The 38 Special should have been made in a small case but, people are dumb and would load it into anything that would fit. If you load black powder into a 38 Special you will not get 38 Special performance.
I have a question. I want to load some 38s with the 148 gr. HBWC upside down like you did, with them slightly above the top of the casing and I want them roughly the same speed you had yours. So, what type of gunpowder were you using and about how much were you using per bullet? These are going to be my self-defense loads.
... 2" pistol of any caliber is not designed for hunting or target pistol ,, 25 yards is unlikely for a self defense scenario ,,,, more like 5'-10' ... maybe out to 25 ft ,, unless you get into a gun battle .. very capable caliber and round ... even at 25 yards shown ,, still hit center mass ... .... Love my Wheelguns !! ...
I had been looking for this test. I extracted a hbwc from some old reloads from my late cousins stock. I couldn't believe how little powder was in the case. His notes were 3.2gr of bullseye and 148 gr speer hbwc. Is that typical? I have been told it might be pushed a little.
That sounds about right. Typically all powders use similar charges for a HBWC and several overlap at about the 2.7 gr mark. So 3.2 is a slight increase to take into consideration the pressure loss if the bullets were seated out a little like mine. If they were not seated out that's fine too but they would be close to +P pressure if seated flush at 3.2 gr.
@@GunSam Thanks, These reloads were from 1996 and I can't ask about the rationale of the loading recipe; but the notes say a velocity of 1375 fps. The bullets were flush with the case. My cousin did own a thompson center contender and a 4" .357 , so it is unknown whether that was used or if that velocity was actual or from a manual. Others have told me that is unlikely velocity. It is as interesting puzzle. Nevertheless I indirectly inherited many boles of free ammo, which was consistent and accurate.
my local farm n fleet has a bunch of 2020 re-branded Winchester Silver Tips in 20 round boxes.. it's old school but from what I've heard, it mostly did pretty well in most scenarios but obviously not including the Miami Dade shootout, I think poor tactics were the issue there but $13.99 for the 110 grain standard pressure 38 special and the 185 gr .45 auto! too good for me to pass up! probably somewhat of a low power loading with low to medium penetration but I know the .380 Silvertips were a go to for a long time! any experience with the .38/9mm/.45?
I have seen them recently at online stores and been meaning to get some. I tested the .38 Special+P and .380 auto Silvertip in the past and what I took away from them was they were really soft lead, but worked well. I haven't tried the 9mm or .45 yet but plan to at some point.
Sam thanks for your videos, always full of information. I do some reloading, and I was wondering what was the powder load you used? I was told that it isn't a good idea to carry reloads in EDC, as it could be used against you for having a non standard load, any thoughts?
Thanks for watching. I actually did a video right after this video with my thoughts on it from the years of studying I have done on carrying reloads for defense. I think for these wadcutters I used something like 3.0 or 3.1 or something like that of Titegroup for the traditionally seated wadcutters and something like 3.5 or 3.6 gr of Titegroup for the backwards ones. 1.3" OAL for the backwards. Here's where I give my opinion on handloads for defense: ua-cam.com/video/5SZpHL8JWH4/v-deo.html
Here is my Combat Revolver CCW Action Shooting Highlight w/ various revolvers ua-cam.com/video/ty0lhQ5hVm0/v-deo.html and here is link to my new Combatives DVD bjjfanatics.com/products/combatives-and-street-jiu-jitsu-by-dan-the-wolf-man-theodore
Thanks. I have heard that 1,200 FPS is about the max you want to push this kind of plated bullet, and by that I mean any shape bullet that has the cheap thin plating. Obviously a plating style like what Speer uses could be pushed faster.
I can if I load as .357 Mag. I was going to load last night but realized the depth would be hard to judge with the bullets I had and still be short enough to fit in the revolver. Once I get some 158 gr JHP bullets delivered shortly, I will learn the identical depth they need to be compared to a 158 gr JHP and load them with that powder charge. I will exceed 1,000 FPS for sure this way.
Very informative!! However , it is academic how accurate a snob nose is at 25 yards. In real life situation, you should not be shooting someone with a hand gun at 25 yards. Most hand gun encounters are at a much closer range. However, I commend Berry's shooting ability. My favorite shooting platform for the average person is a 38 special, hard cast, semi-wad cutter hollow point. The F.B.I., Dallas load etc. Thanks for the video!!
You are correct!! I do not have his skills and I know what I can do with a handgun regardless of caliber . However, stats. show the majority of hand gun encounters are about 7 yards more or less. This is a fact. On a side note I shot a wild boar (220) pounds wit iron sights with my Ruger 44 at 33 yards. However, I cheated, had a shooting pole for extra accuracy. My first shot was fatal. Thank you for your positive response!! God bless!!
I know this is a rather old video and not sure if you will ever see this comment or not. However, did you ever try to push the backward wadcutters to higher velocity? Did you ever try them out of a longer (4") barrel? If you did, I'm curious what the results were. If not, maybe you could revisit this project with those objectives in mind. Thanks.
I have not messed with these bullets again, but I have done more tests with other lead WC's backwards. Could never get a great load, either too fast or too slow. If I recall lead needs about 850 FPS to expand but not over expand and break up.
Typically no milk is involved. I usually use jugs left over from distilled drinking water, however with this Covid thing I can't go out and buy water like I used to if i'm low on saved jugs. I actually had to purchase several jugs from a plastic packaging company recently, after shipping $40 for 25 jugs, so not cheap.
Gun Sam _Revolver Aficionado_ thank you for the feedback. I’ve been wanting to buy American. Smith it shall be... barring some fluke of a deal on a Ruger. I also think the smiths look better.
Generally if a bullet is plated like these, it's going to be a softer lead. I cannot confirm the lead alloy as all bullets can be varying softness or hardness. I would not consider them to be hard cast.
This is more of a modern way to test something classic. I also wouldn't recommend carrying reloads on the street. I have no issue with reliability as reloads are not less reliable than factory ammo if done competently, but I would not carry reloads on the street as any unknown status of a clean shoot that might go into ballistic testing to prove your innocence might put you at a different spot that you fired from than what you said you fired from. However home defense where one might be under castle doctrine there's no reason to carry factory over reloads, unless the reloads were not done properly which is rare.
So... here's some first-hand history: 37 years or so ago, back when the cops in my jurisdiction were still carrying S&W M-10 revolvers loaded with the old standard-pressure police issue 158 gr. SWC loading, and hollow-point factory handgun loads just weren't legally available in my area, my friends and I ALWAYS kept hot handloaded inverted wadcutters in our home defense revolvers (which were usually chambered for .357 Mag.). These were the old solid lead Match HBWC bullets, pushed to what would today probably be regarded as +P+ pressures, but not quite into the Magnum realm. As described in your previous video, these always over-expanded in test media (usually loosely-packed wet newspaper back then), but at that time we felt that in a home defense situation over-expansion was preferable to NO expansion. In testing them on the range, we frequently (but not uniformly) found that they keyholed at 15 to 20 yards. This was fine by us, as we intended them specifically for close range home defense use. If loaded to Magnum velocities, they often tumbled at 10 yards, and almost always by 20. This may, of course, have been unique to the specific bullets, powders, and loadings that the fella doing the reloading for our little bunch used. Thankfully, none of us ever had the need to test them in real life, so I can't offer any anecdotal evidence regarding real combat effectiveness.
When you shoot as well as you do with a snubbie at 25 yards those head shots are all one shot kills. "You be the judge" lol... Paul H will be coming for you...
We reload . 32 S & W L WC but mostly with poor results, bullets keyhole and not very consistant @ 25 m . Factory Ammo is way better. Our reloaded . 45 Auto ( 195 gn SWC ) are perfect ... reloading WC is difficult when precision is mandatory ...
I been meaning to get a .32 H&R die set to try whatever I can reload with that and have a lot of .32 S&W Long brass, but since I only have one .32 cal revolver I been putting it off.
Wanted everyone to know I JUST scored a box of the new Hornady Critical Defense .327 Federal Magnum! I will probably let that one skip my order of planned tests to the front of the line ASAP.
Also if anyone wondered about this wadcutter test, what I had to do was load many charges and chronograph them all before the video started, write down about what the averages were then use the charges that had overlapping velocity averages. I used TiteGroup powder as I know it like the back of my hand, and with traditional seat used in grains: 3.0, 3.3, 3.4, and 3.5. For the inverted seat I used 3.3, 3.6, 3.7 and 3.8. The rounds used in the ballistic test were if I remember right, traditional seat 3.4 gr and invert seat 3.8 gr. The OAL was flush with case mouth (1.160") with the traditional seat and 1.300" with the inverted seat, primers were CCI 500.
Cool! I'm a big fan of .327FM!!!
@@mobilemiall never heard of it
You'll be the first to see chronograph results I think... Hornady doesn't even list it...hope it expands better with the FTX bullet(red tip)
@@GunSam I have fiocchi 148 grain wadcutter for my 637 usually use +p but I have this on deck
Wadcutters, Not just for targets anymore
They never really were
Back in the 80's when I was reloading my 38 Charger Arms, Elmer Keith when writing for Guns And Ammo, recommended that for a.38 special to be reliable stopper, you needed to load.The hollow base wadcutter backwards with 5 grains of Red Dot. He said that this sound then give you about 1100 fps out of a two inch without over penetration. I completely blew the head off a Jack rabbit at 30 feet. If.You don't know who Elmer Keith was, look him up as he was the one who developed the 44 mag.
He also blew up several guns with hot rod loads like that. Some .357 mag loads don't get much more than 1100 fps out of a 2" barrel so a .38 at that velocity would be really hot.
Keith was a pioneer. I remember reading his articles. I have a couple of his books, "Hell, I Was There", and "Sixguns by Keith". He was a cowboy and a tough customer in his younger days, and a fellow Idahoan. The shooting community lost an icon when he passed.
Apparently impervious to recoil and deaf as a post after many years of shooting without hearing protection.
Read lots of elmers stuff along with Skeeter Skelton. Check some of skeeters books out, good reading
@@SCSlimBoiseID yes indeed
Tangentially related: berry's copper plating is not as secure as a fmj so when I was shooting them from a ported barrel I was getting bits of copper shaving off in the ports and smacking people standing next to me at the range. Good thing that range has mandatory eye protection. (Nobody was hurt, the copper shavings where too small to do anything but feel like a spark falling on you.)
Thank you for the video. Brings back some memories. My father used to load Speer 148g lead HBWC and I remember they were crazy when you hit something. He loaded them in "Super Vel" brass for any old timers looking at the comments.
My bologna has a first name....now has a clean hole in it. Great test and presentation as always. Thanks for all you do.
Thanks for watching. Not o s c a r lol, Bar-S cheap crap.
@@GunSam cheap, but effective, or good enough.
About the same results I saw in the late '80s thru early '90s. I used a 3" barreled gp100 and at 25 yards I had the same and sometimes better accuracy when inverted. I used lead wc. I saw more expansion, but then again, it was lead. Good test - glad you posted!
I tested in the past with straight lead inverted wadcutters and got I believe .72" diameter expansion, however the trade off is I caught the bullet in jug one rather than the typical 3-4 like most handgun ammo. In my opinion the best performing wadcutter is a straight lead traditionally seated forward facing wadcutter. They penetrate well and still deform to almost .500" when fired at 700 FPS, I would imagine faster would give 1.5 times deformation matching 1.5 times expansion diameter of the standard of hollow point expansion.
Decades ago I had a reloading ammo business. I used 148 grain hollow based wadcutters, with a gas check, loaded with about 3 gr of 2400, a CCI 550 primer and Browning brass to sell as self defense loads for .38 specials. I could never keep enough of them in stock, they sold as fast as I made them. One customer shot a raccoon that attacked him and it nearly blew the critter in two. My testing of the rounds, ( in wet telephone books) gave excellent expansion at 7 yards. In a .357 magnum I used a different powder and the impact on books was devastating!
Good solid tests without a bunch of crap. I just stumbled upon your channel and subscribed. Keep up the good work! Thanks
Thanks!
We used to load swaged lead hollow-base wadcutters inverted back in the day (early 1980s) and test them against water-filled jugs. Unlike the plated variety, the soft, swaged lead bullets gave impressive expansion, some close to double their original .358 diameter, and they made a pretty fun show of blowing up the jugs in the process. We got hold of some of the first hydra-shok bullets available to hand loaders back then - they were essentially a swaged lead hollow-base wadcutter with a raised post in the middle of the hollow part. That was years before hydra-shok bullets were jacketed or sold as loaded ammo like they are today. If you can find some non-plated HB wadcutters, you might consider trying that experiment again with those. Nice video! Cheers.
I have already tried those, way too much expansion. There's a video I did on them, that's the whole reason to try these plated bullets.
Never thought of using a wadcutter for a defensive round.Food for thought..... thanks
The original reversed hollow base wadcutter loads were usually swaged lead and soft. Problem they had on impact was uneven
and asymmetrical expansion which skewed their penetration path. There was a company called Taurus bullets, not related to the gun company, that added a post in the center of the hollow cavity. They were still seated flush to the case mouth. The company name was later changed to Albert bullets. The design was later sold and became Hydra shok. I still have a box of ammo loaded
with the original HBWC bullet with the center post. The company that loaded that ammo was Suffolk County Ammo in L.I. N.Y.
In the late 60's, as a HCSO Deputy, I Ioaded those soft lead swaged HBWCs, inverted, in a J frame back up, for very close encounters of the worst kind.
Police used to load 38 hollow point semi wad cutters (FBI Load) in their 38 spl revolvers. Gas checked reversed hollow base wad cutters were loaded in the snubs used by detectives and as bugs at least in Los Angeles. That was over 60 years ago.
"...and as bugs..."
I haven't a clue.
Please explain...
@@fjb4932 Back Up Gun.
Back in the early 1980s I had a friend load me some reversed hollowbase wadcutters to shoot armadillo with. This was in a Smith &Wesson 686 with a 6 inch barrel. This was very effective at ranges up to about 15 yards. I still have a few left as well as some 38 shotshells loaded back in the early 1970s I truly enjoyed your video. Have a great day and a better tomorrow.
Sam, One of your comprehensive presentations to date. As to the HBWC bullet you utilized, I realize that you selected the same one to test against each other to equalize that factor. Were a softer lead alloy used at the same velocity loading greater expansion with an inverse HBWC bullet may be possible. There might be greater barrel leading as a result, however I'd concern myself with that issue well after a self-defense incident. Kudos on creating this comparative test with realistic performance parameters.
Thank you. I been going through hidden comments and yours was there so sorry for the delay.
Hi Sam! I don't have time right now to watch the video. The great governor of Michigan is on. She is a piece of work. Have a great day!! Ruger Rich
devil with the blue dress on. If she makes any sense, get back to me. I don't expect to hear from you.
@@patrickbolthouse7354 back in the day we used to call people like her a goo goo head here in Jersey. Ruger Rich
So enjoy the format of your videos. Always informative in a practical real life way.
Thank you.
Well I can tell you from a test I've done... Yes, if you boost that inverted to .357 performance it will get more expansion. However, it needs to be out of a carbine or a 6 1/2 to 8 inch barrel to really show what it can do. In traditional revolvers, it doesnt expand better than other JHP designs and certainly doesnt penetrate better either.
I had bought some 200gr JHP's once, which were a .356 diamater cavity. Essentially nearly the same as an inversed wadcutter but allowing for more case capacity. These performed nearly identical to inverse wadcutters at .357 velocities. I found that in anything less than a 6 1/2 inch barrel and performance was abysmal. Out of a carbine, I managed to get around 14 inches of penetration but expansion was nearly 100% maximum and was almost 2x original diameter. But it couldnt achieve that in standard snub nose or 4 inch barrels. 6 1/2 it would show signs of getting good expansion but again as stated, compared to other JHP options it's certainly no better and not worth the trouble.
However this does have me wondering about taking a .32 S&W Long 100gr wadcutter, inverting it into a .327 Federal Magnum case and stepping it up. That might actually give it some decent expansion and make for a cheap JHP to reload if .327 is in short supply.
In my past test I was running regular lead wadcutters inverted at less velocity than these and got double caliber expansion in the same test medium.
Always enjoy these comparison videos.
Thanks for watching!
Great production as usual, thanks, Gary J.😎
Great test and comparison Sam! Thanks
Thank you!
The only I can say 👏👏👏👏👏👏 bravo, another great video Sam, thanks for doing those ammo test
Thank you.
I always enjoy your snubby videos, no exception here. I loaded some forward facing hollow wadcutters but had some difficulty seating them. Still I liked the results , and will work to improve the process.
Thanks. What was the issue with seating?
@@GunSam The faces were getting slightly deformed. I tried using other dies and even a flat face (reversed) die fro a 9mm set. That worked better.
@@willknowdoggs4764 I see. I get that a little bit with Hornady bullets but haven't noticed it with anything else.
I would like to see you take this experiment further. Maybe crimping, or scoring the hollow end. how about different barrel lengths? A carbine maybe? While I’m not exactly a fan of your test medium setup, I HIGHLY recommend you don’t change ANYTHING about it. You don’t want to redo what you’ve already done, so don’t change that variable. But I would also like to see different distances as well. I’m quite intrigued with this experiment. There’s a lot to explore. Thank you for this work.
Great video, I have always enjoyed shooting wadcutters. Good practice round and decent round for self defense.
Thanks!
Hey Sam. Interesting test very much appreciated it. I use to load 148 hard cast reversed hollow base wad cutters back in the 1960s, had no hollow points at that time. Results were about the same as your test. Have you tested the Federal HST 38 special plus p 130 gr JHP. I found very good result with this round and is now my carry round for my Smith 642. Great channel by the way. Thank you.
Thanks. Yes I tested the HST. Very efficient round for what you get, about the recoil of a .380 but more damage. In my testing the expansion was huge and penetration low, but again for what it's working with it did well.
Thanks for the reply. Ya penetration wasn't the 18 inches but I thought the overall 12 inches was okay. It will definitely stop an Agressor. Thanks again.
Swaged lead inverted HBWC expand really nicely.
I tested those before, very big expansion but low penetration.
@@GunSam Do you have a link to that test? I would love to see it.
The reversed HBWC idea is about as old as the HBWC. When I experimented with this decades ago, I learned accuracy/stability and terminal performance vary greatly with bullet, load and gun. If you intend to carry these, test the exact load you intend to carry, in the gun you carry.
i love your tests THANK YOU! in a real world scenario, what .38 round would you rely on?? i ask because your knowledge is greater than mine, even watching your videos you grasp the fundamentals better than i could. ive been carrying the HST micro rounds in my LCR.
Thanks. HST is a decent round for what it is as the powder charge is low, therefore very low recoil and flash and still decent energy. Nothing wrong with it, however I have seen better penetration with others. In my .38 Special snub nose I carry the Federal Hydrashok 129 gr+P because I felt like it performed the best overall.
@@GunSam As a matter of fact, I'm down to my last 15 rounds of the 129 grain. I was able to get a box of the Hornady 110 grain @ 1190fps. Haven't tried it yet.
I'm waiting for more Remington 125 SJHP+p. I USED TO be able to buy it at Wal-Mart...LMFAO.
@@GunSam Did Federal recently only start using +P for this round? If you look at Lucky gunner page of gel tests no +P mentioned. Quite a difference out of a 2 vs 4 "barrel. www.luckygunner.com/labs/revolver-ballistics-test/
Try Federal Personal Defense HST Micro 38 Special +P
Excellent video! Thank you!
I hope you keep making videos and it gets to the point to where you can get you some ballistic gel. Your videos were actually informative and you definitely have potential 👍🏽
There's no question of getting to that point. Gel is worthless. Not going to use it.
Good test. You are very well spoken
I would be very curious to see you run the identical tests, with the same snubby, shooting Federal’s Personal Defense HST Micro 38 Special +P. (I’ve found it to be fairly accurate in my S&W 442, and about the maximum recoil I can manage out of that light gun.)
I ran a similar test into water with Speer HBWC and plated HBWC. 4" 38Spl. The lead Speer flattened out a lot. The plated did not. In a 357, the plated bullet expanded very well.
iI appreciate your videos and was hoping you would do one on HBWCs and reversing them. I heard about this from a police officer I knew in the 1960s. I never used this trick in the .38, but have used it in the .32 H&r Mag with good results. I was experimenting with putting a gas check (backwards) over the powder charge and the loading the reversed HBWC on top. it seemed promising, but Lyman stopped making gas checks and, while you can use Hornady GCs it's a pain to get them straight and right.
Thanks for watching. I did this test before but got totally different results, Hornady lead wadcutter, expanded to double diameter but under penetrated. This one didn't expand really at all. I just need to find the middle ground.
Looked accurate to me! Thanks for the great video!
Thanks for watching!
I've been shooting cast hbwc since the summer of 56, never shot many at paper but in my old (even then) .38 s&w they worked great on rats and groundhogs.
Yes I shot a lot of groundhogs off the tractor at 50 or less, some a bit more. What the heck is a .327? Reversed always reversed.
No I'm not that old, I was 10 in 56.
haha I wasn't born till 1980 and my birthday cake would burn down the house. Face it you're old lol. The .327 Federal Magnum is a Super Magnum made off the .32 H&R Magnum which is a Magnum of .32 S&W Long.
Good vid as usual. I've just loaded some 357 mag cases with inverted WC bullets 148 gr, and the powder of the 357 magnum. Just to know how it will perform. Never tested but I guess huge expansion and shallow penetration.
I may have to test something like that at some point. Been planning on it.
Excellent video!! I wouldn't want to get shot by either round. I don't worry about 25 yards anymore just 3 feet and they would be perfect. Did you load them yourself? Have a great day!! Ruger Rich
Thank you. Yes I loaded them myself. My original experiment was a year ago with lead WC's. so I started from there and started to up the powder charges and check for pressure signs. These turned out well in my opinion. I could load hotter but they weren't too bad as is.
@@GunSam they were great. I've never hand loaded and now with my hands so bad I doubt I ever will. But I saw a computerized one that could load any round. I see on gunbroker.com Winchester 32 specials for sale so I looked up the ballistics and that's one heck of a round. I love the antique Winchesters and colt revolvers. I'll buy you a computerized one for you when my lottery check comes in. ( lol) Ruger Rich
@@GunSam just want to let you know, your governor is a goo goo head!! That's an old south Jersey Italian saying. Also I saw the perfect pistol for you, a sig p226 x5 classic custom shop job. It's beautiful and it's only 20,000 dollars. I have a dollar saved up so far. ( lol). Ruger Rich
I’m digging the poor man’s ballistic bologna
In my opinion speer HBWC are the sweet spot between berry's and Hornady's for lead hardness.
I should look for some!
Please watch my original video if you get a chance, shows the difficulty in getting the right bullet for these loads. ua-cam.com/video/5vJ-36kcEuA/v-deo.html&t
I've got some Sierra 110gr JHP Blitz I'm gonna load and try out. I'll try and post a link when I do. Just 15ft accuracy and water jugs for me
Good Work Master Sam.
I believe your lack of expansion is due to using Berrys plated HBWCs. I've seen another You Tube video, same bullets, same results. These are great target bullets but I think the plating affects the ductile characteristics of the bullet, making it less likely to expand. In target shooting, this is a good thing where we don't want the skirts to separate, but not here loaded ass backwards. I'd suggest using Hornady or Speer HBWCs, I think you'll get different results. I used to swage my own HBWCs out of lead wire, and just for fun made some .44 versions of the old Kynoch .455 Manstopper bullet -- essentailly a double-ended soft lead HBWC. Devastating bullet at .455 velocities (as were my .44 versions) so I know from experience the softer lead HBWCs *will* expand at quite moderate velocities.
Ok... my handloads.... for an old guy I like to experiment. With speer HB 148 wadcutters loaded upside down get around 900 fps from a 5" barrel (old 28) I went a bit tech (for me) and boiled the lube off the speers. At that point I put 2 coats of HT (green color if it makes any diff) I shot em into wet newsprint (low tech again) Reason is I found the normal soft lead wadcutters just basically blew apart at even 900 fps What is extremely cool from my short and not that scientific test is.... that the Hi-Tech coated bullets mushroomed almost textbook and retained 90%? of their weight. They also had more penetration. Coated bullets be they HT or powder coat will have more velocity than any jacketed or plated bullet with the same powder charge. You might try em. I would not send you loaded ammo but I could send you some coated bullets for you to handload and try. Works with all my cast bullets. Hard cast 45 acp 200 grain semi wadcutters coated with HT are beasts! At a little over 950 fps they hit most things with noticeable uh... 'smash' I recovered a few from the berms and they look pretty decent still .... And the barrels on your guns are easy to clean. It is my go too 45 acp round.
About 44 years ago I was loading inverted Speer lead HBWC. I found expansion inconsistent, some bullets were not stable and keyholed. Back then, I had only a Smith & Wesson. I have been thinking of repeating the experiment and including a Ruger Blackhawk and a Python, to see what effect the different twist rates have on stability and accuracy. I suspect the 1-in-14 twist in my old Python would show some improvement.
Wondering what that inverted WC would do at 1000 to 1100 FPS. I like your test setup.
Thanks. I tested them at 960 FPS and the only change was the expansion went up to .458". From my understanding you have to be careful with wadcutters too fast as because the centers are not thick from such a hollow cavity, you can blow the centers out and leave the skirts in the barrel and essentially have a squib the next round.
Why would the wadcutters stand proud of the casing when inverted? shouldn't they still be flush?
Because there's less case capacity inverted, so there's no exact load data. That means I have to make my own load data using bullet base line up compared to something else, so this is just the overall length they come to. Plus it makes it easy to tell the difference between the regular ones and inverted.
@@GunSam OK, thanks,
Wadcutters are the best projectile to invest in you get two bullets in one hollow point and target
Watching this I wonder if partially filling the reverse wadcutter with some hot glue would improve the ballistics🤔
Thanks RE: Berry / plated bullets I have found if the crimp is too deep , between the crimp cut & rifling .. you end up with very inaccurate bullets >> the plate came out like AIR BRAKEs on a bomb or jet . I didn't get it till I found a slug in a jug ( 44 sp ) . I started to use them like round nose 45 long Colt , set them deep crimp over ojive . Once you learn how to use them , they are OK . I may just go back to lead and or low cost JHP like Hornady HAP bullets . RE all lead .. don't buy bevel base , flat base or just slightly rounded base is WAY better & less lead in the barrel .
The plating on mine stayed on pretty well.
@@GunSam I tried to see your crimp .. it looks to be light enough !! I was used to crimping SWCs & JHP in the groove .. too much crimp for Plated Berrys .
@@danoneill2846 For inverted seating I didn't do much mouth flare so that they seat really tight before crimp. Then I did roll crimp, but just barely as to not release the lower friction the taper hold had on the bullet.
Another great video, practicle and relavent. But what is your dream gun?
Thank you. I am not really sure to be honest. I think maybe a 3" revolver of high quality like a Smith performance center or Kimber might be a good gun. I wouldn't mine a 1911 too as I have none as of yet.
The hollow cavity of a HB wadcutter when loaded conventionally become part of case capacity. When you rverse the WC you loose that effectively getting a smaller case and some higher pressure. I wonder to what degree that adds velocity to reversed wad cutters? I guess you seated them out a little to compensate.
Any videos with swc hp
Rounds 38 special
If you find my video, S&W model 69 un boxing and first rounds fired, at the end I tested that round vs a .44 spl lswc hp.
thanks for that test. have you ever tested Winchester WinClean Ammunition 38 Special 125 Grain Jacketed Soft Point in a snub nose? not a lot of recoil, seem to be accurate.
Thanks for watching. I have never tested that but I do believe seeing it before.
Probably the inference about inverted WC projectiles is due to the fact the CG of the bullet is shifted to the rear, and with the increased drag on that hollow nose, it may have a tendency to destabilize and wobble, turning end-to-end given enough time.
Might need to do a 100 yards test lol. From what I have always heard, weight in the rear stabilizes a bullet more than in the front, however the hollow cavity would be suspect being such a flat face in the wind.
@@GunSam You might be right about where the CG of the projectile factors, front to back. Also the cylinder is spinning at a pretty rapid RPM which was obviously for stabilization in the first place. Just thinking out loud...
Hello, interesting video. I have a question: doesn't inverting a wad cutter, so putting the flat side toward the powder, increase the pressure, by decreasing the space in the case? I'm wondering, since you plan to push the bullet at .357 speed.
Yes, it will a bit. When we are talking lets say really low starting charges, this makes no difference at all if both loaded flush to the case mouth but when we start to go hotter it does matter. So basically what I do when I load hotter inverted wadcutters is I will lay out something of close size with known reload data, lets say a 158 gr JHP and will lay that next to a case with the case mouth and cannelure lined up, then I will place the inverted wadcutter next to the case as well and line up the bases of the two bullets. I will then record what the overall length will be with my calipers. In my example what a 158 gr JHP would measure in a .357 Magnum case would be 1.590" overall length but the inverted 148 gr wadcutter with same base depth will make the overall length of 1.535". Now as far as charges go, I still have to be careful as there is no cannelure to roll crimp into the wadcutter so I have to basically load them with almost no mouth flares so that there's enough friction holding the bullets in place, and also use a lower than max charge to prevent the remaining rounds from creeping out of the cases under recoil.
Now try 200 gr. LRN. I got a bunch of those and need to try them in the snub. See if they tumble alot like they claim.
I have done two tests on 200 gr, it depends on the bullet shape. A rifle bullet like a cast .35 Remington loaded into .38 Special will tumble greatly, but the more of a ball nose 200 gr LRN will not tumble.
Well done on your handload. Very consistent. What powder did you use?
I'll keep watching.
When I shot jugs with these I got basically no expansion. Only seen expansion with the softer Hornady bullets. Edit: even loaded to 357 spec I only got negligible deformation of the round and it stopped in jug 4.
2:48 No, the 38 Special was designed for smokeless powder. The reason why it is so long is to prevent it being loaded into a 38 Colt revolver. The reason many of the manufacturers loaded black powder into almost everything is that it was cheaper. The 38 Special should have been made in a small case but, people are dumb and would load it into anything that would fit. If you load black powder into a 38 Special you will not get 38 Special performance.
I have a question. I want to load some 38s with the 148 gr. HBWC upside down like you did, with them slightly above the top of the casing and I want them roughly the same speed you had yours. So, what type of gunpowder were you using and about how much were you using per bullet? These are going to be my self-defense loads.
I shoot both..... Liked your video a bunch. Nice job. Maybe regular for Winter carry (clothing)... inverted for Summer carry.
... 2" pistol of any caliber is not designed for hunting or target pistol ,, 25 yards is unlikely for a self defense scenario ,,,, more like 5'-10' ... maybe out to 25 ft ,, unless you get into a gun battle .. very capable caliber and round ... even at 25 yards shown ,, still hit center mass ... .... Love my Wheelguns !! ...
I had been looking for this test. I extracted a hbwc from some old reloads from my late cousins stock. I couldn't believe how little powder was in the case. His notes were 3.2gr of bullseye and 148 gr speer hbwc. Is that typical? I have been told it might be pushed a little.
That sounds about right. Typically all powders use similar charges for a HBWC and several overlap at about the 2.7 gr mark. So 3.2 is a slight increase to take into consideration the pressure loss if the bullets were seated out a little like mine. If they were not seated out that's fine too but they would be close to +P pressure if seated flush at 3.2 gr.
@@GunSam Thanks, These reloads were from 1996 and I can't ask about the rationale of the loading recipe; but the notes say a velocity of 1375 fps. The bullets were flush with the case. My cousin did own a thompson center contender and a 4" .357 , so it is unknown whether that was used or if that velocity was actual or from a manual. Others have told me that is unlikely velocity. It is as interesting puzzle. Nevertheless I indirectly inherited many boles of free ammo, which was consistent and accurate.
my local farm n fleet has a bunch of 2020 re-branded Winchester Silver Tips in 20 round boxes.. it's old school but from what I've heard, it mostly did pretty well in most scenarios but obviously not including the Miami Dade shootout, I think poor tactics were the issue there but $13.99 for the 110 grain standard pressure 38 special and the 185 gr .45 auto! too good for me to pass up! probably somewhat of a low power loading with low to medium penetration but I know the .380 Silvertips were a go to for a long time! any experience with the .38/9mm/.45?
I have seen them recently at online stores and been meaning to get some. I tested the .38 Special+P and .380 auto Silvertip in the past and what I took away from them was they were really soft lead, but worked well. I haven't tried the 9mm or .45 yet but plan to at some point.
Sam thanks for your videos, always full of information. I do some reloading, and I was wondering what was the powder load you used? I was told that it isn't a good idea to carry reloads in EDC, as it could be used against you for having a non standard load, any thoughts?
Thanks for watching. I actually did a video right after this video with my thoughts on it from the years of studying I have done on carrying reloads for defense. I think for these wadcutters I used something like 3.0 or 3.1 or something like that of Titegroup for the traditionally seated wadcutters and something like 3.5 or 3.6 gr of Titegroup for the backwards ones. 1.3" OAL for the backwards. Here's where I give my opinion on handloads for defense: ua-cam.com/video/5SZpHL8JWH4/v-deo.html
@@GunSam Thanks!
Here is my Combat Revolver CCW Action Shooting Highlight w/ various revolvers ua-cam.com/video/ty0lhQ5hVm0/v-deo.html and here is link to my new Combatives DVD bjjfanatics.com/products/combatives-and-street-jiu-jitsu-by-dan-the-wolf-man-theodore
I know you can only make them go so fast with the 38 spl. Can the plating handle faster speeds? Great video
Thanks. I have heard that 1,200 FPS is about the max you want to push this kind of plated bullet, and by that I mean any shape bullet that has the cheap thin plating. Obviously a plating style like what Speer uses could be pushed faster.
These normal .38 specials are traveling faster than federal HST *+p*
HST in .38 Special are garbage. They fire slower through a 4" barrel than a 2" barrel.
@@GunSam agreed, as far as damage goes they're alright but they have very little noticable impact shock
Can u use faster pouder get 1100 fps plus p, and back of 3rd jug dent w bug expansion? Then sell Gun Sam Splatter rounds?
I can if I load as .357 Mag. I was going to load last night but realized the depth would be hard to judge with the bullets I had and still be short enough to fit in the revolver. Once I get some 158 gr JHP bullets delivered shortly, I will learn the identical depth they need to be compared to a 158 gr JHP and load them with that powder charge. I will exceed 1,000 FPS for sure this way.
Thank you sir 🙏
Thanks for another interesting test. All I’d offer is not to use these rounds in a speedloader or speedstrip.
If there isn't already a channel called "Baloney Bullets" it's all yours.
Good video 👍
Thank you.
Great video 👌🏽
Thank you.
What powder are you using for the HB forward WC?
Titegroup
Very informative!! However , it is academic how accurate a snob nose is at 25 yards. In real life situation, you should not be shooting someone with a hand gun at 25 yards. Most hand gun encounters are at a much closer range. However, I commend Berry's shooting ability. My favorite shooting platform for the average person is a 38 special, hard cast, semi-wad cutter hollow point. The F.B.I., Dallas load etc. Thanks for the video!!
It's good to know what abilities you might have on tap in case you ever need them.
@@GunSam ...curious to know what your opinion is on the "Dallas load?"
I've heard MANY great things...
You are correct!! I do not have his skills and I know what I can do with a handgun regardless of caliber . However, stats. show the majority of hand gun encounters are about 7 yards more or less. This is a fact. On a side note I shot a wild boar (220) pounds wit iron sights with my Ruger 44 at 33 yards. However, I cheated, had a shooting pole for extra accuracy. My first shot was fatal. Thank you for your positive response!! God bless!!
I know this is a rather old video and not sure if you will ever see this comment or not. However, did you ever try to push the backward wadcutters to higher velocity? Did you ever try them out of a longer (4") barrel? If you did, I'm curious what the results were. If not, maybe you could revisit this project with those objectives in mind. Thanks.
I have not messed with these bullets again, but I have done more tests with other lead WC's backwards. Could never get a great load, either too fast or too slow. If I recall lead needs about 850 FPS to expand but not over expand and break up.
@@GunSam, understood, thanks for the reply.
Is that a hand load, or a factory round?
Question about the Jug or Not.... do y’all drink enough milk to keep this test running or do you dumpster dive in the recycling bin? 😉
Typically no milk is involved. I usually use jugs left over from distilled drinking water, however with this Covid thing I can't go out and buy water like I used to if i'm low on saved jugs. I actually had to purchase several jugs from a plastic packaging company recently, after shipping $40 for 25 jugs, so not cheap.
Cool video 🇺🇸 👍 try a 10 1/2" barrel
haha
Good vid. Thanks👍!
Thank you.
Do they make WCs for .44spl? Might be interesting.
I'm pretty sure .44 wadcutters exist.
They do. Buffalo Bore has some "anti-personnel" rounds in 44 Special with full power wadcutters (250 gr i believe). I imagine they are a thumper.
You remind me of Peter, of the X-Force, in Deadpool 2.
I never saw that
Do you have a preference for which are the better American made revolvers?
I feel like S&W is a little better because it uses a hammer block instead of a transfer bar. Plus they carry better.
Gun Sam _Revolver Aficionado_ thank you for the feedback. I’ve been wanting to buy American. Smith it shall be... barring some fluke of a deal on a Ruger. I also think the smiths look better.
Sorry if I missed it, but are these hardcast or soft lead?
Generally if a bullet is plated like these, it's going to be a softer lead. I cannot confirm the lead alloy as all bullets can be varying softness or hardness. I would not consider them to be hard cast.
@@GunSam thanks!
Nice snubby shooting at 25 yards!
Thanks!
Cool, but why do it? There are plenty of good options, and I do not want to carry reloads as a CCW round my life may depend on.
This is more of a modern way to test something classic. I also wouldn't recommend carrying reloads on the street. I have no issue with reliability as reloads are not less reliable than factory ammo if done competently, but I would not carry reloads on the street as any unknown status of a clean shoot that might go into ballistic testing to prove your innocence might put you at a different spot that you fired from than what you said you fired from. However home defense where one might be under castle doctrine there's no reason to carry factory over reloads, unless the reloads were not done properly which is rare.
So... here's some first-hand history:
37 years or so ago, back when the cops in my jurisdiction were still carrying S&W M-10 revolvers loaded with the old standard-pressure police issue 158 gr. SWC loading, and hollow-point factory handgun loads just weren't legally available in my area, my friends and I ALWAYS kept hot handloaded inverted wadcutters in our home defense revolvers (which were usually chambered for .357 Mag.). These were the old solid lead Match HBWC bullets, pushed to what would today probably be regarded as +P+ pressures, but not quite into the Magnum realm. As described in your previous video, these always over-expanded in test media (usually loosely-packed wet newspaper back then), but at that time we felt that in a home defense situation over-expansion was preferable to NO expansion.
In testing them on the range, we frequently (but not uniformly) found that they keyholed at 15 to 20 yards. This was fine by us, as we intended them specifically for close range home defense use. If loaded to Magnum velocities, they often tumbled at 10 yards, and almost always by 20. This may, of course, have been unique to the specific bullets, powders, and loadings that the fella doing the reloading for our little bunch used. Thankfully, none of us ever had the need to test them in real life, so I can't offer any anecdotal evidence regarding real combat effectiveness.
I,really like Barry's I don't think price per.round and quality can be beat. IPad 130grn rnd nose Barry's for plinking.
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If you want a consistent load. Eat your veggies and take vitamins.
Unless you have colitis and proctitis, in which that philosophy goes out the back door.
I wonder how they'd do in my 20 inch rifle
why test it in a stub nose not a 4-in barrel
When you shoot as well as you do with a snubbie at 25 yards those head shots are all one shot kills. "You be the judge" lol... Paul H will be coming for you...
Luckily Paul seems to like me so i'm good...
We reload . 32 S & W L WC but mostly with poor results, bullets keyhole and not very consistant @ 25 m . Factory Ammo is way better. Our reloaded . 45 Auto ( 195 gn SWC ) are perfect ... reloading WC is difficult when precision is mandatory ...
I been meaning to get a .32 H&R die set to try whatever I can reload with that and have a lot of .32 S&W Long brass, but since I only have one .32 cal revolver I been putting it off.
MORE SPEEEED :P