Using Wadcutter Ammo for Self-Defense
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- Опубліковано 4 жов 2024
- With all of the modern jacketed hollow point loads available for self-defense, it's easy to overlook the venerable lead wadcutter bullet. But in some cases, it may be the best load available for your concealed carry revolver.
Check out the results of our ballistic gelatin tests for 146 self-defense loads including .380 ACP, 9mm, .40S&W, and .45ACP: www.luckygunner...
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My ex's step dad was a retired KC cop. He was killed in a helicopter crash in the seventies. His wife, my mother in law, never touched his stuff after he died. It fell to me to clean out their house when she passed. It was really interesting digging through his reloading debris. He had clearly put a lot of thought into the .38 special. He had every kind of projectile under the sun and a ton of complete reloads from the 70's. His carry piece was a four inch Model Ten with a Tyler T grip and his back up was a J frame. It had five wadcutters in it with the projectiles turned backwards in the case. They were both in Bianchi holsters. Stepsoninlaw ended up with the pistols and I got all the reloading equipment and supplies. He had articles in magazines cut out and long notes on his loads and their performance. The boxes of reloads were labeled with complete load info. He had some lead hollow point semi wadcutters loaded with old school copper gas checks. Those according to his notes were supposed to clock in the 900's. They are extremely unpleasant to shoot in my model 36. I carry wad cutters in it quite often. It's deadly accurate with them.
You should absolutely write up and upload those notes
That is very valuable information. Some of those loads in 38special with a gas check on the back will probably clock not 900 ft./s but about 1200 ft./s which makes excellent defense loads and a 38 special. Yeah you will feel some recoil but it will save your life when and if needed
That S&W model 36 can Handel it. Any nice S&W .38 special ( model 14,15 ,19 , 27,28 )would be a perfect match for the ammo that you inherited
@@genelyda1102 do you think a model 15 could handle the old .38/44 loading?
That's a very interesting story.
This is easily one of the best retailer channels on YT. The production values are outstanding guys.
Thanks!
Lucky Gunner Ammo | Winchester wadcutter had no loss in fps in a snubby? Fiocchi was the slowest? Hmm? Not buying it. I'm thinking your chrono is faulty. Try again.
+Lucky Gunner Ammo them wadcutters are hollow take it out of shell put it in backwards better defence round ?🐺🐾👍🔫
TheGunCollective you guys are damn traitors to our right and you even admitted it in your video. At least LuckyGunner ammo helps people
Every now and then a UPS or FEDEX package from them comes to my door :)
My grandfather was an LA county Sheriff, he used 38sp wadcutter in his gun, i have it today and have is for home defence, and use wadcutters, good for him - good for me.
Absolutely love all the revolver coverage. There's only so many videos about the same copy paste poly wonder pistols you can watch. Keep up the great work.
A U.S. Border Patrol Inspector Back in the day (we were called “PI’s” back then) was attacked by a knife wielder whom he shot with a wadcutter. (He had forgotten to load duty rounds after practicing.) Turns out that a full wadcutter, even at low velocity, was a better stopper than the issue 38/44 round nose lead bullet. (The 38/44 cartridge would be called a “+P” round today.) Underwood and Buffalo Bore now load full wadcutters at approximately 1,000 fps. The original wadcutters velocity was less than 700 fps.
Hey man, USBP class 255 here.
@@texasbear2060 Hey amigo, where are you stationed?
@@kentwilliams4152 1992 Brownsville
In Houston now with CBP
@@texasbear2060 Roger that amigo. Buenas suerte in su trabajo!
@@kentwilliams4152 back at ya
Not sure how UA-cam knew to recommend this to me but it was very interesting. Back in the 70's I was a US Air Force Security Police Commander and we finally got clearance to switch to a full powder load wad cutter bullet after several incidents of our previous .38 FMJ rounds having disturbingly low capability to take down the bad guys. The need to have the bullet actually do its job overcame the concerns of collateral hits on by-standers or our cops shooting themselves or each other while practicing their quick draw while on duty. Hard to believe how often that happened. The wad cutters were selected because hollow points are banned by the Geneva Convention. Interesting side note - since I was also a pilot you may be interested to know that on some flights we carried a compact .357 in an ankle holster with the first two rounds being bean bag bullets (we really wanted to avoided shooting our own plane out of the sky) but followed by three unjacketed hollow points. Geneva Convention was determined not to apply since an unruly/deranged passenger or self-appointed hijacker/terrorist was not an "enemy combatant."
Brett Kriger lol
My grandfather was a Charleston SC Police officer from the late 50s through the 70s. He told me straight up after watching round nose .38s bounce off a windshield during an incident, he and several others switched to wadcutters. Regulations be damned. And apparently when needed they worked like a charm. They weren't allowed to carry anything other than .38s until the early 70s.
Bullets dont bounce off of windshields, no matter what your grandfather said. A wadcutter wouldnt really make a difference.
@@PERK-30 I take it you haven't shot many windshields. They can indeed skip bullets if your angle is wrong.
Then came Dirty Harry.
@@PERK-30 contrary to your idea 38 round nose can glance off bounce skip whatever word you want to use and yes his grandfather said the truth that’s why you use a wadcutter or a semi wadcutter and a 38 special running around 12 in feet per second at 1200 foot pounds of energy gets the job done and a 38 special
@@genelyda1102the fuck are you talking abt 1200 ft lbs. 38 barely makes 300 ft lbs in hot loads.
People act like a wadcutter is harmless.Like if you get hit, you can shrug it off "...*well, that wound channel is not very big. Thank God it wasn't a hollw point, or I would be in real trouble right about now."* Ludicrous.
Yeah bullets are bullets, they can all kill you. People like to overthink everything to the point where they under think.
I carried wad cutters in my revolver back in the early 80's prior to the S&W semi's came along.
I carried a whole six backup rounds in a speed loader for backup.
"And yes, I miss my blackjack everyday!"
I invite anyone who says any bullet is harmless to stand on the wrong end of one.
@Semper Fi I don't want to be in the way of either one.
@@butre. I let people shoot me in the face with wadcutters all the time for demonstration purposes. It doesn't even sting! I had to stop because of lead poisoning.
I was a LEO, in the 70s. My second firearm was a stainless S&W Chief Special 2"bbl. in 38 special. I reloaded my own woodcutter rounds ( a little hot, but less than +P). I used hollow based 148grn lead Wadcutter slugs. Thing is, I'd reverse load the slugs, so that the hollow base was forward. Now this firearm was meant to be a "get you off me" type tool. It was meant to be used either "in contact"or " less than 5' " range. I've never been disappointed with a wadcutter.
Your statement that you've never been disappointed with a wadcutter implies that you've shot somebody with a wadcutter as opposed to shooting paper plates or cans. So you're satisfied shooting wadcutters into .......WHAT?????
Back in the 70's and 80's when I was an LEO a lot of us carried 38 snubbies on our ankles for backup. We flipped the 148gr Hollow based Wadcutters and shot them HOT. They proved their performance during a shoot out where ONLY the reversed wadcutter loads but a man down after he was hot 12 times by different .38s and a 12 ga. The penetration was deep and while he survived he was incapable of continuing the fight.
Years ago I carried hollow base wadcutters inverted in the case. At self defense ranges they were very accurate. They expanded quite nicely.
Me too! Controllable, inexpensive and easy to reload. 👍
You are totally correct and yes they are extremely accurate. That is if you can hit what you’re shooting at the smith and Wesson revolver, and that particular ammo will do its job.
I used to reload 38 special with backwards wadcutters as well. Light loads in my S&W model 10, 4 inch barrel.
Also: wadcutters are less likely to be deflected from a"curved surface" when struck from an oblique angle; it`s hard edge tends to dig-in.
My favorite .38 Special load (even for S&W m36) is a unjacketed lead full wadcutter weighing 158 grains at 850 or so fps. The bullet is designed to be loaded like a regular bullet, has a front and a back, but the front is very lightly tapered to allow it to clear the cylinder forward of the chamber. Works like a wadcutter, as you said. Deeper penetration.
Keith bullet. Elmer Keith.
@@beavisroadhog9629 That certainly beats any sort of round nose. And it's better for fast reloading in a revolver. But I've found a 158 grain solid lead fully flat nosed bullet I like for the initial rounds in a revolver. The Keith bullet usually works well in a semi-automatic as well.
I don't even want to think about how much $ i've spent with your company over the past 7-8 years, but im glad to know my ammo supplier is as knowledgeable as they are reliable.
Just ordered 50 rounds of fiochi wadcutter! You are very compelling, sir! Thank you! I didn’t even realize that of course a 38 hollow point can’t expand in a target flying out of a 2 inch barrel. You may have just saved me from a potentially terrible case of over penetration that I hope never occurs.
The common response I've always gotten when my non gun friends have seen my 38 wadcutters is "Are those blanks?". Lmao
show them how fertile you are, that ur not shooting blanks. tell them to let u fire a blank at their beer. empregnate it. shoot ur wad all over it.
Ask "Smart" Alec Baldwin. He should know.
Shadow Wolf,
Never underestimate the level of ignorance the average person has.
And remember, 50% are dumber than them . . .
Don’t you just love their ignorance.
@@genelyda1102 They don't know much about guns, and seeing no bullets they think it's blanks, it's completely reasonable lol.
Great video answering alot of questions about ammo you can't find no where else. Thanks
I've been carrying a snubbie .38 for many years now. The ammo I keep in it is from my own handloads, using 148 grain "Double Ended" wad cutters ahead of 3.5 grains of Red Dot powder. Out of my Taurus 85, those clock at an average of 935 FPS. Those will do major damage to a criminal. You should see how easily those same rounds will down wild pigs.
You’v hit wild pig with those rounds? how big were the pig? how effective was it and how did the wound look like?? sorry for asking too much im just really interested in wadcutters
@@Omar-if1cu I had a mix-up there. The charge for the double-end WC is actually 4.1 grains of Red Dot. the 3.5 grain charge is for hollow-base bullets, which I rarely find these days. Those are even nastier.
Now, to answer you. The entry hole looks like a perfect circle. Exit wounds are rare, since energy transfer is normally 100% internal. Internally, it gets messy. When bone is hit, the wound tracks look more like those of shotgun pellets because of the unusually high numbers of fragments. The temporary cavity has to be seen to be believed, as it looks like something you'd expect from a .357 hollow-point hit. It's usually a bit larger than a standard softball, and there is much tissue liquification. Most wild pigs in my area rarely get to be more than 125 pounds because of local predators, especially Coyotes. I did get lucky once, bagging one that was close to 200 pounds. I hope this helps a little, because I'm the type who finds it easier to show something than tell about it.
I’ve used 38Spl plated wadcutters for over 30 years as a defense load. 900 FPS. Can’t beat em. “Your honor, I had my target ammunition loaded in my revolver.”
@Jerzie Folks that's a 50 grain bullet, so simple math shows that the ft/lbs is not a whole lot and not gonna carry a lot of energy, also that guy's comment is two years old
@samuelharshbarger4934 Most hollow base wadcutters are around 98gr. The solid hardcast type are closer to 150gr.
@@la_old_salt2241I like the 148gr wadcutters.
In the 1970s I carried hollow based wadcutters loaded backwards. It's like a super hollow point. You have to hand load to get these. Try some on a soft target.
Try a steel ball in the reversed hollow base. Use a gas check on the front to hold it in. There's even room for some dog shit.....
Would you like a lawyer to say, “so you loaded these rounds specifically to kill someone”. I would rather be seen to have used low power target loads to defend myself.
I believe Federal was loading a HBWC type of bullet backwards. Looks like a nice round...
@@netfoot 😆 LOL! My sister swore by inverted hollow base wadcutters...minus the ballbearing,gas check and the canine crap.She packed a Colt Detective Special...electroless nickel plated.Pachmeyer grips.I'm sure the 1970's spammed called her to get their belly gun back.
Clayton. I tested hollow base wad cutters turned backwards also and if i remember correctly I got good expansion but accurate for 10-15 feet . it so long ago. but I have been rethinking in the last few years after reading about John cerolio- I probably spelled it wrong. NYC police detective who mostly used 38 special wad cutters as his defense loads . I don’t know if he carried it in all of his 20 gun fights. then looking at Buffalo bore anti personal ammunition in 44 special, a 200 grain wad cutter self defense round. living in a town with houses on three sides of me it’s worth retesting. at the veolicety it’s shooting is there pass through bullets I don’t think the 100 feet or so it possibly might travel to my neighbors front porch would be leathal. where I live in NC nearly every day I see on the news at Greensboro, Winston Salem , high point,Charlotte all large cities people getting shot and bystanders getting shot taken to the local hospitals then released hours later with non life threatening injuries. I know there were some pass through hits but there’s no record of how many. so I don’t worry about pass through with these wad cutters. but it’s muzzle loading deer hunting season right now if I kill a deer or two that’s a perfect time to experiment see what my different lead loads will do. plus during our rifle season you can use any caliber revolver/ semiauto calibers you want in center fire. any barrel length. I’ve said for many years meat bone, tissue, fluid ,hide were the best way to check self defense ammunition expansion and penetration. just thought I would share this with you. nana and papa from the foothills of the blue ridge mountains in North Carolina wishing you well.
this youtube channel is reason enough to shop at lucky gunner. keep up the good work.
This was an extremely interesting and educational video. I have read a lot of the posts here and am amazed at the almost flippant attitude with regards to stopping power. I have a S&W 36 (circa 1966) and am in my mid 60's. Also I'm handicapped. I've only pointed a loaded gun at someone once and it scared me. Don't get me wrong, I would have shot (if necessary) if the police hadn't arrived. Thank God I didn't have to. Maybe I'm just a wuss but killing someone (in self defense) would be hard to live with.
Many years ago I bought a book by Massad Ayoob (hope I got the spelling correct) titled "In The Gravest Extreme". If anyone chooses to carry or keep a firearm for self defense this is MUST reading. I keep my Smith loaded with wadcutters and try to practice when I can.
I ain't no tough guy, but I ain't goin' down without a fight. Not to put anyone down, good luck with your myriad of different loads. Hope they work for you all. Thank God we live in a country whose Constitution gives citizens the privilege to be armed.
Good post, but it isn't a privilege to be armed, it's a right. Big difference.
@@johnmagill9496 Cept the Constitution doesn't mean much to the Libs.
@@johnmagill9496, my bad. I stand corrected and yes, a very big difference.
The Constitution does not "give" us the right to arms, God does. The Constitution affirms this natural right.
@@mikepalucci1381, you are correct, my bad.
Thanks for the effort you put in your videos. Regards from Europe....
Your videos are well organized and presented with objective statements based on stats and specs.
158 grain soft lead semi-wadcutter for the win!
Been carrying them since the 1970s.
And how is that any better than the 158 LHP plus P?
100 grain 32 h&r wad cutters for me.
loading wadcutters with a speedloader is hell
You are by far the best gun UA-camr to date. Videos are interesting, to the point, and a lot of good sense witch is lacking today by most. Keep up the good work.
Thanks!
Paul Harrell's channel and Chris from Lucky Gunner are the best bar none
The one thing that maybe being overlooked about wad Cutters and their flat front,
Is that you cannot compress blood or water. And with that, you tend to force a hydraulic wave in front of the bullet as it passes through tissue.
That's the reason why most heavy bullet bear loads are hard cast lead with a flat face. It tends to push the liquid in tissue against itself. Causing a ton of damage without expansion, and it does not hinder penetration because of the weight of the bullet itself.
That flat nose is also very resistant to deflection and the shoulder cuts so helps maintain nose forward orientation and this aids in straight line penetration and overall depth of penetration.
Absolutely agree that a solid full wadcutter out of a short barrel revolver is a terrific defensive load.
Hard cast 148-gr at 800-fps is better than any hollow point option, no question.
Better yet is a 168-gr Keith LSWC at 750-fps but this topic is full wadcutters and I am in full support of the theory.
You fellas at Lucky Gunner are doing an amazing job. Thank you.
David Stults at 805fps, I would use softer lead...
I'm using 168gr lead semi-wadcutters at about 800fps. It's a little stout, but very manageable and stupidly accurate out of my vintage charter arms undercover 38
110gr SJHP .38 Special +P+ Secret Service Load, 1155 fps
The best data presentation of any tester. Please keep it up.
One of the best channels, forreal. Keep it up yall.
Crazy that a ammo dealer puts together such great videos.
I hand load all of my ammo these days. One of my favorites is a hollow-based wadcutter loaded backwards over 3.5 grains of Red Dot in .38 Special. At 50 feet, in ballistic gelatin, it opens up to around .70 caliber, and causes awful-looking splits all through the gelatin. A few years ago, I was pig hunting, and shot one with one of those rounds. The pig dropped like I had flipped a switch - from a lung shot. Upon field dressing the pig, I discovered its lungs and heart were practically liquified by the hydrostatic shock.
Used the same load many years ago but check out my warning above. Too damn many hungry attorneys out there. Another option is to "sanitize" the rounds and package carefully in clean plastic bags with a label on them making them appear to be self defense loads you bought at a gunshow. Remember, be wise and sanitize.
+Subgunman Hell, they'd just claim that you "bought" them because you knew they were extra super duper for real lethal or something equally stupid, and if they find out you loaded them yourself and lied about it they'll have a f**king field day with your ass. An attorney looking to get paid or push an agenda will do or say whatever they have to to make you look like a psycho killer, no matter _what_ the actual circumstances are. Matter of fact, they'll most likely go out of their way to either ignore or misrepresent the facts to make you look as bad as possible. Nobody on Earth can manipulate the truth, play on an audience's emotions and prejudices, or weave a web of bullshit like a lawyer with something to gain.
DudeistPriest As morbid as this may sound, that kind of thing will be a positive aspect of a SHTF / WROL situation. Such liberal vermin lawyers will not be tolerated for one second under such circumstances. They'll just as fucked-without-a-kiss as the cretins with the entitlement mentality.
And it seems the liberals are hell-bent on causing that scenario to happen......
Way back when I started my police career, in 1968, the backwards-loaded hollowbase wadcutter was a fairly common load for a .38 snubbie. If you picked the right bullet, a gas-check would fit over the little crimping groove on the front of the bullet and allow a bit stiffer load.
There is some tendency to lead the bore, but on a defensive load who cares?
Sounds like a good load...I just got a 6 inch m&p model 10 and I'm going to give that load a try thanks bud
3:56 If you guys watching don't know already,the cartridge that has "CBC" written on It(between those from Winchester and Federal)is the Magtech one...The Brazilian ammunition Company sells their product outside Brazil under the Magtech name😉
Great points made here. I've seen your ballistics tests with hollow points from a snub nose. With the inconsistency of hollow points opening up due to low muzzle velocity and the high recoil of standard and +P rounds, you helped me a lot with this video. I will be using wad cutters in my new snubby. I appreciate the info. Fantastic job young man.
I hope to see a video about the load I was told to carry in my LCR, the 158g semi wad-cutter. This channel is awesome
The .38 special+P 158gr semi wadcutter hollowpoint made by Remington is the 'real deal' old school defense ammo of FBI agents and cops for over 50 years with excellent street performance. The lead is soft enough to to expand even out of snubbies and still make the FBI minimum of 12" penetration.
Some years ago I was helping an extended relative go thru her aunt n uncle's house after they both passed. He was a retired police office and forensic investigator and I came across a report he had written in the 60's concerning wadcutter use for police duty weapons. The report cited numerous cases where shots failed to penetrate front/rear Windows of vehicles, tended to ricochet more when the round hit an angle surface. It also had info about several officers seriously wounded trying to reload using speed loaders because the rounds didn't load as neatly as standard issue round nose ammo.
The recommendation was wadcutter were not authorised for duty carry and reserved for practice ammo only.
Keep in mind this was for a single police dept in the late 60's and most of the cases included in that report were documented cases in that state. Some of the cases listed were dated to the late 1940's. Wish I had a copy of his report, it was very interesting read. At the time I was a semi auto only guy so it was a neat "historical" read for me.
The reloading part is absolutely true. I carry full wadcutters in my Colt Detective Special, but my Safariland Comp II has regular .38 lead round nose in it. I do have wadcutters in my speedstrip, only because reloading with a speed strip forces you to slow down, so I can actually get the flat face into the whole. With a speedloader, getting 6 wadcutters to line up is near impossible. Maybe if the chambers were chamfered it would be easier, but as is, only traditional rounds work. Semi Wadcutters work better, but the ones I got have a pretty sharp edge so they don't go in as smooth as LRN.
I realize the limitation of LRN, but I'm very accurate with them and in most civilian encounters, I feel being accurate with an ok performing round is better than potentially missing with a great hollow point. Also the likelihood I'd need to reload is slim, but the safariland and the LRNs ammo I can reload the Colt almost as fast as a semi auto (6 round speedloaders also work better than 5, just due to the geometry. Constantly have small hangups with my j frame, which works better with HKS speedloaders).
As for your grandfather's report on LRN recocheting, he is absolutely right. Jim Cirillo from the NYPD Stakeout squad said they'd ricochet off perp's skulls sometimes. In fact just today I was reading an account from the Truman Assassination Attempt, and one of the Secret Service guys hit one of the suspects in the head with a .38 Special LRN, and it tore a chunk of flesh off, but failed to penetrate his skull. Tho later in the fight, the booth guard killed the other suspect with a shot right above the ear presumably .38 special LRN as well. I'm assuming a direct hit will do the job, but whereas another shaped round would penetrate near the rounding of the skull, the LRN may ricochet.
@@1972glm I own revolvers and lever rifles in .38/.357, .44Sp/.44Mag so all my store bought ammo and reloads use a flat nose or flat nose semi wadcutter design. This allows me to use the same round in revolver or rifle and not worry about feed issues.
I inherited a few boxes of .38Sp wadcutter and lead round nose ammo when my s-dad passed. I used them up in the revolvers and saved the brass for my reloads. I will say that wadcutter and LRN's are more accurate than semi wadcutter rounds and tgis is why they are mainly used for range shooting vs carry ammo.
Soft lead wide flat points in the speed loaders would be a good solution I think.
@@1972glm '
Solution on reload issue: carry with wadcutters as first load, with round nosed cartridges as your reload. If you believe Paul Harrell, most deadly encounters will be resolved with that first load, anyway. As for shooting through car windows, in a defensive scenario your objective (and duty) is to escape and avoid, not like LEOs who have duty to apprehend and prevent criminal conduct. Certainly there are scenarios where you’d like the ballistics of a 9 mm with a 2” revolver, but that is what compromise entails. Giving something up for something else, in this case (for me) close-combat reliability.
I carried a snubbie .38 Special years ago with 148 GR Hollow Base Wadcutters loaded in backwards to form a HUGE holllowpoint. These were loaded to give 800 FPS from a 2" barrel. I believe the rounds were called Phantoms and I bought them in Huntington Beach CA from a range called The Firing Line. They carried some mom and pop local ammo makers stuff I never saw anywhere else. The accuracy was good and recoil was not bad at all from a 2.5" S&W model 10. But you nailed it for my back up ammo was Federal 38+P 158 GR LSWCHP and those were a little snappy but managable. Thanks for the video, good info.
While I don't know the comparative effectiveness of them, my uncle was a police officer in the 70s and 80s. He was sold on wadcutters for their "sheer manstopping power". He loaded his own rounds and to this day I still fear the very idea of them. He super hot-loaded .357 magnum rounds for his Colt Python he called "cannon wadstoppers" that turned out over 1,800FPS. Everything I ever saw him shoot on his range that was thicker than 4 inches or so, the rounds would tumble and cause horrific wound channels often splitting the round in two or three pieces.
Ouch
Wow
I recently acquired a snubby. Took your advise and bought some wad cutters. 148 gr. I have to say that you nailed it. It was a very enjoyable shoot. The felt recoil on a 1911 is like a rolling feeling. A smaller gun has a snap. This felt more like a small bump. I could have shot all day with no discomfort. It will take a little more range time to get use to the trigger but I don't mind a heavy trigger on a defense gun. I got rid of shooting left pretty quickly but found that I'm shooting a little high. I'm sure that's alignment. I'm going to be very confident with this round and gun as a carry rig.
Years ago I hand loaded some hollow based wadcutters backwards in .357 cases for use in my 2 1/2" S&W model 19. Much easier to shoot than a normal .357 load and boy did they expand! I was looking for something that wouldn't go through a wall yet still perform well.
I gaurentee a 357 even in a short barrel will go straight through a wall. Maybe not a man and a wall, but a miss is a miss.
@@jaredwright1655 guarantee
I'm starting to think that maybe YOU have the best gun channel on UA-cam.
Gun Jesus
Great info. Had a friend hand load mine for my 38 S&W 2 in revolver carry weapon. Close range works 👍
I joined my PD in the 70’s and the standard round was the .357 semi wad cutter. We latter adopted the JHP in the early 80’s.
The Thompson LaGarde tests agree with everything you said.
Back in the 1960s, my grandfather used to load .38 Spcl., .357 Magnum, and .44 Magnum hollow base wadcutters with the projectile in reversed for self-defense, and many of the local LEOs loved them. It would leave a devastating wound because of the extra expansion.
thats called a hollowpoint
Jim Cirillo, of the NYPD Stakeout Squad, was a well known proponent of the wadcutter bullet for defense.
Although he uses almost a hollow point waddcutter
A cop friend uses wadcutters in his personal carry gun, so I was wondering. Thanks for this video.
On our horse ranch we were raised on semi-wadcutters, made by dad, and later by us, using type metal, like you use for type setting. (dad was also a printer on the side)
Although it is missed in conversation, the wadcutter design places more of the projectile shoulders in contact with the lands and grooves. This gives the projectile a faster resulting spin and a quicker stabilized projectile. Much like the Manlicher Carcano that killed Kennedy (or so they say). It was a long round with a slight rounded tip. Once it hit you it tumbled which made it additionally dangerous. Watdutter is more accurate at 21 feet than most other rounds since it has a lower powder load most of the times. If you get to see a 9mm coming out of a semi auto you will see the tip of the bullet gyrating until it gets out far enough for the spin to take hold. In a wadcutter it simply comes out spinning much truer. Great for self protection IMHO
3.2 grains of 231 in .357 cases. Nice target rounds. Good for teaching new shooters.
This dudes shotgun and shotgun ammo videos are best on utube
I deeply appreciate the work and research you put into your videos. Thank you!
You do a great job explaining these issues!
Back in the 70s, I hand loaded home defense rounds by loading a HOLLOW BASE wad cutter backwards with a light 38S load.
Super low speed expansion and low penetration on walls and family members that are behind the intruder.
Normally, the hollow base expands to grip the rifling giving more spin from a short barrel. Like a Minne Ball or a pellet.
Do a gel test on this and you'll be surprised. I keep an old model 19 S&W loaded with them just for home defense. If I need to reload, I have my Kahr 45. Not as safe in my home, but neither is the intruder.
New year, 2021. Winter, big coat...Still throwing the snub nose in my coat pocket. Still using wadcutters, still getting from you! Your videos, followed by my own range time confirmed for me wadcutters are what I need....especially if I have to fire thru that coat pocket!
I still carry my Glock 26 and G17 back up mag... but in winter, the big coat and layers... the little snub in my coat pocket is fastest and makes me smile with my hand on it anytime I want.
Semi wad and the semi wad hp also make excellent self defense rounds with reduced recoil and good wound channels without fear of over penitrating
everything will overpenetrate, if it wont, it wont save your life. just be smart bud. and yes semi wad hp is great :)
A full kieth load will definitely overpen
I’ve read many - but not all - of the comments posted to this thread. A lot of them question the defensive viability of lead wadcutters fired from .38 Special revolvers . . . especially from snubbies, with approximately two-inch barrels. Chris is absolutely right, often the velocity achieved from such short barrels is insufficient to ensure hollow point expansion. In addition, in some jurisdictions (New Jersey, for example), it’s generally illegal even to possess hollow point ammunition (no, I’m not kidding).
A little history lesson might be valuable at this point. The NYPD’s renowned Stakeout Squad was, a few decades ago, the small and distinguished unit that frequently had to deal with the Big Apple’s most dangerous felons. One of the stellar detectives assigned to this squad was the legendary Jim Cirillo (you’d be wise to Google him), who compiled a peerless record of arresting or killing murderous criminals.
In fact, Cirillo was compelled to terminate several really desperate and vicious crooks and, normally, his weapon and ammunition of choice were a .38 Special revolver (usually either a snubbie or a bull barrel, four inch, Model 10/M&P) loaded with lead wadcutters (which we would now designate as +Ps). Basically, Cirillo utilized the so-called FBI, Chicago, Dallas, or Secret Service load.
I’m not suggesting that .38 Special +P wadcutters are always as effective as excellent JHPs (such as, short barrel +P Gold Dots), when fired from a 1.875 inch J Frame’s barrel (or even a 2.25 inch SP-101). However, I am asserting - based on a hell of a lot of PROVEN history - that .38 Special +P lead wadcutters are a very reliable, repeatedly demonstrated, and quite effective defensive round for use from snub nosed revolvers AND that they are essentially “pre-expanded.” I carry hollow points in my SP-101, but I’d far prefer an excellent lead wadcutter to either a round nose FMJ or to a JHP with inconsistent expansion at low velocities.
If you want to get a more effective wadcutter loads, handload them yourself. It's fun, economical, and educational. They're also easy to cast your own to save even more $.
My underwood wadcutters are 158 grain at 1040 fps. My reload is the flat nose hardcast Kieth loaded 158 grain +p at 1120 fps, they hit like a truck and even out of a 1.8 inch 442 barrel will plow through denim wrapped around a meat pack then through 5 water jugs.
How's the kick out of a 442 with that ammo? Must be snappy af
@@880videoman I honestly don’t think it’s that bad. But there’s a few factors there. Firstly I’ve shot a lot and am not recoil sensitive. I starting shooting 12g shotguns, 300win mag, 357 mag around 12 years old. The second is I’m a bigger athletic guy. I’m 6’3” and 210 lbs. was a 3 sport athlete. Thirdly I use the hogue monogrip, which gives you a full grip. I don’t ever pocket carry, only aiwb. Honestly these are more mild than their 380 hardcast +ps out of my lcp. The grips play a role. I have fired them with stock and slim wood grips. Still not uncomfortable by any means but the gun does jump more. I have shot 100+ of these in a single shooting session without a problem.
@ThorsHammer i ask because i picked up 442 at a good price a week ago, and someone mentioned the same ammo if i planned on using it for cc. Have a couple of wheel guns, but this is my first snubbie. Im 6' 2 265, Army Veteran and usually carry a 43X in the summer and a 19 in the winter, but figured I'd throw the snubby in the summer rotation. Changed out the stock grips for some Altamont Bautlier grips(i have oven mitts for hands and liked the aesthetics also). Guess I'll order up some ammo and give it a try. Just figured I'd see if it was worth training with something that's going to be trying to pop outta my hand. Thanks for the quick reply
@@880videoman these are hands down the best edc for a 38 special. They’re pretty much base 357. Very accurate, reliable, and powerful. They also have a semi wad cutter now which would be perfect. It just wasn’t in stock when I bulk purchased. Still have a few hundred rounds of these left. I also edc my 442 during hot summer months. Use a cz75d pcr most the other time until recently. I’ve been carrying a M&P 2.0 4.6 10mm with the Tlr1 hl the past 6 months or so. I use underwood ammo for all my edc and hunting pistol cartridges.
The Underwood 158 grain 38 Special +P is a -Semi Wad Cutter- Hollow Point LSWCHP with 1060fps 394mzzl erg out of a 2".
The round you may be speaking about is the
38 Special +P 158gr. Keith Black Cherry Coated Hard Cast -Semi Wad Cutter-
with 1250 FPS Mzzl erg 548.
Don't mean to trifle here but seems plenty of newbies readin comments, if... you know what I mean Thor.
i love how a wadcutter ccw video has the most views in the past half year. i was worried autos were taking over too much.
Back in the day.... We used to load hollow-based wadcutters backwards, with a gas-check over the “ nose” which was now the base. Effectively a massive hollow-point, loaded much hotter than standard wadcutters.
We did that too back in the mid seventies. Young folks don't know how fun it is hand load.
Really liked this video. I'd never heard this about wadcutter before. Cool!
Porter greetings! 🤩 Well, I didn’t really give it much thought at the time, but when I found Police reload wadcutters I had to buy some for the future. I didn’t even have a 38 Special at the time. 🧐 I eventually got 2 and went to town testing and practicing with them. I mostly carry my 38 for self defense, but will have it with me no matter what! Thanks for the info. 🥰🇺🇸✌️
I like 240 grain semi- wadcutters in my S&W Model 69 .44 combat magnum and 200 grain semi-wadcutters in my Charter Arms Bulldog ,44 special (EDC) revolvers.
All my different handguns have wadcutter type bullets. My cap and ball revolvers (a .36 [.38 cal] Uberti Replica of a Colt Police 1862, a .44 [.45 cal] Pietta Replica of a Colt 1860 Army, and a .22 cal NAA Super Companion) all have conical soft lead round nose bullets in them that I then reformed in the chambers to be completely flat; effectively a wadcutter bullet.
My Double Action cartridge firing revolvers are all LRN ammo that I took a file to and shaved the round nose into more of a LRNFP or Semi Wadcutter shape. Sometimes more of a Truncated Cone or Full Wadcutter shape but I found that to achieve that profile, a lot of bullet has to be shaved which reduces the weight of the projectile a lot. This is the case for my .32S&W short guns, (I have some made this way for .32S&W Long as well, but upon getting some Magtech .32S&W Long Semi-Jacketed Hollow Points I now use those instead), my .38S&W guns, and my .38 Long Colt gun.
Obviously this isn't ideal, but I feel its the best option, for now at least, for using Factory Loads in the pre-1899 antiques I am Legally limited to (or muzzleloading replicas of pre-1899 arms). Clearly, there are more powerful revolvers that are available to me technically, like the Colt 1878 DA in .44-40 or .45 Long Colt, Colt New Service in .45 Long Colt (I think there should be one year of manufacture that they would be legal antiques still, as they were made from 1898 to 1946), the S&W Number 3 double actions (or single action I guess but heavily prefer Double Action for defensive purposes) in .44 Russian or .44-40, etc.
But unfortunately they are often not commonly available for sale, and when they are, they go for a high price. Compared to the .32/.38 cal pocket revolvers of that time period that were made in very great quantities, are already fairly light and concealable, as they were designed to be, meaning I wouldn't have to cut down the barrels or anything (although some of the guns I have with 3 inches or longer barrels I would prefer to be 2-2.5" barrels but idk if feel losing an inch or so of barrel is worth the hassle of cutting the barrel down and all that entails, as well as making the gun less valuable should I choose to sell it in the future.
Anyway I just thought I'd share this anecdote about my uncommon situation, and hope it might inform or help someone else in a similar situation. C
Good commentary Chris.
As you know, I carry WCs in my airweight snubs, and for all the reasons you noted, and more.
Are there any unique advantages to shooting SWC for self defense??
was just wondering
I don't know if anybody sells these anymore but back in the 80s I bought some jacketed wad cutter bullets for reloading my 38. I loaded some hot 357s with some and they really toke out a water jug.
Flat nose ammo like wadcutter, semi-wadcutter (and HP) track straight through flesh. Round nose (most FMJ) will veer, which isn't ideal for self defense.
Great videos. I do ask you to reconsider one thing. Hard cast wadcutters from Buffalo Bore and Underwood. If you have a revolver in 38 special, 44 special, or 45 Colt then you have a great shooting caliber. Is a hollowpoint with those calibers going to expand if shot from a "snub type" barrel......maybe. These hard cast wadcutters hit like a truck!
sometimes u just wanna be able to tell a jury that you shot your wad all over a home invaders face
Solid helpful point about reloading and ammo companies that load their waddcutter spicy, thanks
Very interesting info of the wide variation in speed from one brand to another. I Will remember to get Winchester FWCs. Decades past, we used to hand load 'Hollow Base' WCs, backwards so that the hollow faced forward. Kinda like a really giant hollow point. They seemed to shoot pretty well at close ranges. Never had a real need to fire in anger, as they say.
There was a company years ago that factory loaded them.' Hydra-Shok', maybe. Maybe they were the ones that used a lead bullet that had a post in the center that was supposed assist in opening, or? something.
If someone breaks into your house just ask him which type ammo would he like to be shot with. You can run a ballistic gel test to show him the different options.
This is kinda of an interesting topic. Back in WW1 there was a round manufactured for the .455 Webly dubbed the "Manstopper". It was something like a 280gr soft lead wadcutter with a hollow point and an X pressed into the head. The effects were so devastating that they may have influenced the ban on hollowpoints in the 1929 Geneva convention.
It wasn’t the Geneva convention. It was The Hague Convention, and the U.S. wasn’t a signatory of it. We just agreed to go along… till we didn’t.
wadcutter my fav over 20+ years defence round and a gem in my old taurus 4" 38 special revolver cheap and effective
This is why I like the semi-wadcutter in 357. 158 grain can not be beat. Yes it is recoil heavy, but you can get use to it.
This has been my contention for decades and I've been roundly rebuked on gun forums because of it.
That's because gun forums are where morons go to share their ignorance with the world instead of doing something productive with their lives.
great content... I'm always impressed with the videos on this channel and look forward to the next one. While I'm not that recoil sensitive at my current age and carry a semi-auto, I think this is good counsel for some of the very light alloy revolvers. thanks again!
Man love finding your old things
hollow base wad cutters will tumble very quickly upon impact if loaded hollow end out. the heavy back end will pass the lighter hollow end almost immediately upon impact.
In April of 2022 I found it challenging (and expensive) to find wadcutters.
Semi-wadcutters are a good choice too I think. Use those in woods guns too
Reloading my own. Can experiment up or down in chargers. Good video.
Excellent informative quality video, I'm glad I am a subscriber.
you guys have a really good informative channel. Thx...
Also there are a vast majority of coroner's reports that state when a hollow point bullet hits a human body it has a 25% chance of expanding.
John Smith that’s why you shoot 4 times lol
@@matthewhearherlyhughes3422 no, you shoot until there is no longer a threat, and there is no exact science to how many rounds it takes to stop a threat, mainly because people are built differently, and bullets do weird shit when they hit the body, they can ricochet off of bone, go straight through, or stay in.
John Smith it was a joke brah
@@matthewhearherlyhughes3422 I am aware of this, but I still had to put that disclaimer, because someone else very well could have taken your comment seriously.
John Smith you’ve got a point lol
Lead+high shoulder on the bullet means a much better bite from the rifling. That's gonna tighten up groups from the snubbier barrels that barely have a chance to touch the bullet, nevermind cut deep grooves in copper jackets.
You deserve much more subscribers!
Another excellent video from LG!
That might be a good projectile for .32S&WL.
It would be interesting to try WCs in a lever action rifle to evaluate feeding and terminal ballistics.
Many years ago Smith & Wesson made a semiautomatic pistol designed for the 38 Special wadcutter. I was not able to find one of these, but what a kick ass pistol.
Interesting. I'm looking forward to your test results.
No idea when I got them, but I just opened a box of .38 Spl thinking it was regular old bullets. Never been more confused in my life. Thanks for explaining just what in the hell I had a box of, since I'd never heard of this kind of bullet! 🤣
I've loaded upside down hollow base wadcutters for years for home defense and some practice. I use a solid gas check and a +p powder load. Using a .357 case with the wadcutter loaded flush with the case mouth will make a round that will fit in a .38 spl chamber and protect the thin wall of the wadcutter base. It also has a magnum primer pocket which I have found makes for more uniform ignition. I wouldn't use them for concealed carry as they become unstable out past thirty feet or so and accuracy falls off a lot.
A wad cutter seated backwards makes a low penetrating rapidly expanding hollow point.
I've never spoken to anyone after a self defense shooting that said "I wish I hadn't had such a powerful pistol." I have heard "I didn't hear the shots or feel the recoil. I wish I had more powerful load."
In search of the velocity you want, the best place to start is in the handloading manuals. Becoming a competent handloader has many benefits, more than just the subject here.
According to Magnum Force, Harry Callahan shot .44 special wadcutters in his Model 29.
"you better remember a mans face when you hang em"
@@rkscott7Are you gonna draw dhem pistols, or whistle Dixie !
I've carried a revolver for about a year now but I can't wait to see the results.
Spoiler alert: Speer Gold Dot. The end :)
Lucky Gunner Ammo I have chosen... wisely