Don't Get Cocky: Why All Defensive Revolvers Should Be Double Action Only
Вставка
- Опубліковано 23 лип 2024
- A lot of people have asked why I prefer my revolvers to be double action only. I think the better question is why anyone would prefer their modern defensive revolver to have an impractical single action capability -- it's is a holdover from police bullseye shooting in the 1900s and has no relevance in a modern self-defense context. But that's just, like, my opinion, man.
Special thanks to Darryl Bolke and Tom Givens for helping out with some of the background research. Find out how to train with Darryl here: / hardwired-tactical-sho...
And you can train with Tom here: www.rangemaster.com
Support our channel, buy ammo from Lucky Gunner! - Розваги
Retired Philadelphia sergeant here, went through the academy in 1967. We were trained in both DA crouch at seven yards, and SA out to 50 yards. There’s a time and place for both. Over 22 years I trained myself in proficiency (and speed) using both. My SA became so quick, that when I took the updated “live aggressor “ training in 1989, the instructor was sure I was shooting DA from the draw. I was not. As you continually mentioned, it’s all a matter of practice, which is what I did. If you have time to take the revolver out of your holster, you have time to cock it on the way up.
I'm glad your comment happened. It turns out there is a time and a place for both single and double actions. There is no way the gun has to not be cocked. It is always more accurate single action. Double actions on some revolvers can be terrible and hard to correct or improve. For non-cops single action is best.
The "accidental" (negligent) discharges were not then....or today caused by a shorter trigger pull. They are caused by having your finger on the trigger when it shouldn't be.
Besides, the Revolvers are notorious for having very long trigger pull spacing, making them more capable of accidental left or right pull, but, when ya know how to grip up the gun correctly, it is totally possible to overcome in a flash and make it rain bullets, 6, real fast.
Single-action shooting means slower shooting. Double-action or heavy trigger pull is also more preferred for self-defense when you have to point a gun at a bad guy, and he has a knife. You don't want to accidentally kill him when he is not charging at you.
hoppinggnomethe4154 Single actions are just as “fast” if not faster than a double action is and they don’t fire if you don’t pull the trigger..it’s almost as if you’ve never held a revolver in your life 🤦♂️🤣😂
I think there's a misuse of the rules, that a specific rule can be used as an excuse for dubious decisions anywhere there isn't specific rule against it.
The trigger becomes inconsistent, when you're just trying to find the trigger to touch it instead you're swiping through thin air and when you do touch it the slightest touch can release the sear. When normally when the trigger is this far back the resistance is highest. This is a problem because people DO place their finger on the trigger after they have decided to take a shot but before they have actually aimed.
LG's FBI marksmanship series raised an interesting point, where if there is a complex course of fire then it simulates how mentally taxing your situational analysis must be in combat, you need a very simple and intuitive manual of arms that you can perform intuitively. Your reaction time cannot be impaired by the reaction being a binary choice between SA or DA fire. The decision of whether to shoot will be hard enough as it is.
If I was the security guy in the recent church shooting and had a revolver, I would have most definitely gone single action for that 12-15 yard head shot.
I disagree. Having the extra option to use single action is very handy when you have time to aim and have a crisp trigger.
When you got the chance to use single-action and time to aim, that means the bad guy is beyond the self-defense range. Have fun in court.
@@hoppinggnomethe4154 His attacker may also have a gun, and may also be threatening someone else with it. Didn't think that through huh?
Agreed
I mean I get not wanting to have a literal hook to catch clothing but I too prefer da/sa
@@hoppinggnomethe4154remember lad safety of yourself or others
Here's a revolutionary concept. If you don't want to use single action, don't. It's like they say, "I'd rather have it, and not need it. Then to need it, and not have it."
Waters, I disagree. I have never had my hammer get caught on my clothing and cause a negligent discharge. Granted I have only been shooting revolvers since the 80's. My Sig Sauer P229 also has a hammer and never happened to it as well.
Single / Double Action revolver is for me. I like it. I make the choices. That is on me. I accept it. If it is too complicated for you or you fear it, don't get one. But don't start crapping on people who do unless.... is this Hillary ?
well said,, although i think DA is the best option personally for most defensive shooting situations , still haveing that single action allow you to pull of a long range shot at distance,,also its good for other uses: tagert shooting,, and a well aimed shot from 357 or 44mag will put even a deer down
tagert gibbs, Precisely, wholeheartedly agree.
Waters so DA revolvers never come with external hammers?
I like having the option of a single action trigger pull.
me too
I love it. Especially big calibers with hair triggers.
I guess he thinks an average shooter doesn't have any trigger control I thought that was one of the most important things taught was trigger control so why would you accidentally shoot a gun that's bancock when you have proper trigger control
Until you are trying to draw it with the hammer spur caught in your fabric.
@@presidentgateway lots of us were trained to draw with the thumb on the back of the hammer so that's not really an issue. what bothers me is the lint issue with pocket carry - the hammer is just one more way for dirt to get in.
I enjoyed the video and the history lesson. Before I write anything, let me point out I was in law enforcement in the eighties and early nineties carrying a revolver, and then spent the nineties and the first half of the 2000 decade carrying semi-autos. I can shoot very well with either or, but my preference for my current citizen carry and home defense is a revolver.
Now, as far as single action - once again - I am proficient with a revolver at close quarters and at ranges up to 25 yards with double action, and that includes snubbies. However, past 25 yards, or taking precise shots from behind cover - single action has it's place. It is helpful if you have a hard primer that fails to fire in double action. It also lends itself to one handed shooting from a distance.
So, whereas I mostly train with double action - I still feel single action capability is an extra "ace in the hole," should you ever need it.
I agree, and is the reason I bought my 638. I have quite a few revolvers and I like to think that I'm fairly proficient with them all. I shoot almost exclusively DA but I do like having the option of SA for when and if the situation calls for it, as I find that I can be much more precise with longer shots when time and circumstances allow for SA. With that said, I carry my 640-1, because I like the all steel weight, and/or LCR, because I like the trigger (bought it before the LCRX came out), as much or more that I carry the 638.
As far as the whole "snagging" hammer spur thing.... I thought the same way, waaay back when I bought my first defensive revolver, a DAO SP101. Time and experience has taught me what others have already said, with proper draw technique, it's a nonissue. At least for me. But, I suppose there is always the possibility that it could get snagged on something BEFORE you were ready to draw, and that could impede proper technique. That's why I chose the 638, shrouded hammer for snag free, and still retains SA function when I want. Win-win!
From a dept. liability standpoint, I get it. In fact, I have a DAO police trade-in model 64 with bobbed hammer. I later bought two more that were traditional DA/SA and like them better. For civilian use, outside of some paranoid fear of a litigation claim that you fired in SA and caused a ND, I see no disadvantage to a DA/SA revolver that outweighs the potential advantages.
@@michaelc3416 My first S&W was the 638-2 (pre-lock). I bought it used. It has served well as a light carry gun when I didn't want the encumbrance of a Glock 30. There is an all steel 357 Magnum version which is the model 649. I have one of those also. Sadly that one is a lock model (although the lock seems to have fallen off when I had it disassembled for cerakote work (bye bye warranty). It's 7oz heavier than the 638 but with magnum advantage. The real downside though is that it doesn't fit in my Kramer pocket holster for the 638 due to the heavy barrel. I currently use a DeSantis Nemesis holster for it.
While I definitely don't possess the experience and credentials you have, I wholeheartedly agree that practicing with double action is necessary for self-defense, but the single action capability can prove to be beneficial for longer-range shots.
Proud to be like 100
If the intruder or assailant is within charging distance, about 15 to 20 feet, I would opt for the dbl. action, which I should practice more often. I intend to. But the single action is used to provide the most accurate shot, especially for the regular gun owner, as opposed to the professional gun owner. I think one of the main reasons why police abandoned the single action is because the officer would have a fully cocked revolver, and forget that it was cocked, and accidents occurred.
I forgot where it was but I remember hearing something about how there was an active shooter on a military base and a security guard on duty hit him with a head shot on his 3rd shot at 85 yards. While some guys might be able to hit in double action at that distance, when I have 6 rounds I would like a little more confidence when taking a long shot like that. I think double action is the way to go but I like having the option to rock out in single action
I'm still over here loving my colt SAA....
Nothing wrong with a Colt SAA as a defensive revolver if you're not going to concealed carry it.
Steve Lindsey I used a 3.5 inch barrel SAA up until last year for a CCW....
Just a Bat. Good for you BAT!
Steve Lindsey just providing a counterpoint.... No need to be hostile against a meme'r, we carry too ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
I like mine for when I go camping, It's half nostalgia and half practical.
I agree with most of what you're saying but I don't see why that makes DAO revolvers superior to DA/SA.
Even if the option to use the gun in SA is of little value in a self defense situation, it also comes with very little drawbacks. You can train to draw a revolver with a hammer spur without snagging it just as you can train to shoot DA for self defense with a SA/DA gun. Having the OPTION to shoot the gun SA is always a plus, no matter how little use it has in a specific scenario.
Plus...hammerless revolvers don't look as good :)
Chuck80 correct. But think about. Simplify action to get better results. To cock the hammer it's and will be always one step more to proceed. No matter how much u train it is a additional source for a mistake. In serious situations this time can count.
electronicgrinsch An extra step yes, but one you don't have to take. I fully subscribe to the idea that Da is the way to go in a self defense situation, so there is no extra step if you use your gun DA. the real trade-off is "possibility of using SA when you want" vs "chance for snag on draw".
To me, it is easier to train on the draw with a hammer spur than it is to add one to your gun if you want one.
In short, the perceived benefit of a DAO does not outweigh the cost.
I wish there was a middle ground, something like a rounded and closed spur that would have much less chance to snag, while still making SA possible. A hammer spur doesn't have to be a big protruding bar, it could be a simple knob...
+Chuck80 The middle ground option you're suggesting was attempted by S&W with the Model 638, the original Bodyguard. It has a shrouded hammer with a protruding nub that allows the gun to be fired single action. Unfortunately, the shroud also makes the gun even more dangerous to manually decock, since there's no way to block the firing pin with your finger as you lower the hammer. A better solution may have been some of the older custom bobbed hammers where the spur was removed, but the internal single action notch was left intact and knurling was added to the top of the hammer to allow it to be manually cocked.
That said, the snagging issue is a minor one, and not the primary reason I am an advocate for double action only. The real problem is the safety hazard caused by introducing a hair trigger into a situation of extreme stress where an ND is a very probable outcome.
Lucky Gunner Ammo I was more thinking of the kind of round loop on a 1911's hammer, or maybe your second example of custom bobbed hammers, than the Original S&W 638's weird little hammer.
Ruger's transfer bar technology would address the decocking hazard as the hammer could fall without firing the gun as long as the trigger is not pressed down.
The only real thing left to address is the presence of a very light trigger in a stress situation, Which I really agree with. But cocking the hammer is a willfull act, and training can sort through those kind of behaviors. Reflexes acquired on one platform translate well to another similar. So most people who learned on, say a Glock would never even think of reaching for the hammer if they were handed a SA/DA, thereby eliminating the problem that which you speak of.
A solution would be to have people train first and foremost with DAO or striker-fired semi-auto when they first learn to handle firearms, and/or to simply never really integrate SA motions as part of self-defense techniques... and then switch to a SA/DA afterwards if they want to. It is very likely that they will never be tempted to reach for that hammer spur when stress level increases and muscle memory kicks in.
I know this is about DEFENSIVE revolvers, but a lot of people don't own many guns, and the one they carry on a daily basis is also the one they plink with, and maybe hunt with, and these applications DO benefit from a gun being SA capable. As long as the self-defense training is sound, it shouldn't affect what they practiced for self-defense.
Would you be more comfortable taking this shot double action if you had the option to do it single action? Or do nothing?
www.bob-owens.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/OG-TARGET-HOSTAGE-TAKER_01_lg-e1368972119300.jpg
6:06 might have been solved by Cooper's rule #3: Keep your finger off the trigger until you are ready to fire (when the gun is pointed at the target).
Shot SA since I was old enough to have a hand gun I'm almost70 now never fired off a round when I didn't mean to
Having removed spurs on several revolvers over the years, I have encountered a problem that some police departments had as well: holster compatibility. Many types of retention holsters are designed to hold into the revolver via the spur. Cut it off, and you can go ahead and sell your fancy shoulder holster. Most duty holsters, which are still useful in places where open carry is a normal practice, will not properly secure a revolver without a hammerspur. You can convert them to DAO but polishing off the single action notch inside, but ultimately, I would rather have both options for most guns.
Good point. This is the main reason I haven't removed the spur on my 686.
Thanks for mentioning that point. That's not something I had considered since I personally never use retention holsters, and I rarely encounter them among other shooters who carry regularly. I can see how that would be problematic, though.
All of my carry daily carry guns either pistol or revolver are DAO with restrike capabilities---ie SIG P250, Beretta PX4 Type D, KelTec P11, Ruger LCR and SW Bodyguard .380You rarely encounter people who carry that use retention holsters? Maybe what you think is retention and what others think it is are different? My idea is that its kydex or leather molded with adjustable screw friction and has a thumb strap or a active locking device...ie ALS---so equivalent to a level 2 in duty senseIf you need a retention holster at all then you need one when concealed carry so as it not to drop out in every day use---ie using restroom, reaching down, picking item up etc....those tend to and will loosen gun in holster. Also, as a private citizen you are more likely to be ambushed during a criminal incident and during a hands on encounter you want excellent retention. I only carry LCRs as a revolver and use Safariland als holster for carry. I carried since 1988 and I have yet to use my ccw in the "street" but I have had incidents of gun falling out---damn nylon holsters-- before I learned especially the value of a quality holster with excellent retention. I carry Desantis thumb breaks to date as well. On the range or in the field or rare open carry----I use a Safariland Level 2 or 3 duty holster.
Tell Bob Munden's ghost that single-action-only is not fast and accurate. Jerry Michelek demonstrates that double action is also effective. Practice trumps action.
+Vincent Stouter Ah yes, Bob Munden, legendary slayer of balloons. His ghost comes by and haunts me all the time.
Absolutely no disrespect was intended by my comment.
In defense of Bob, he also shot B 27 targets on the range with elite LEOs.
I agree that use of SA in revolvers (or Automatics) increase the risk of an AD. Some departments are considering transition to DAO autos due to the same concerns. I personally have carried a S&W 340 at times in keeping with the philosophy of this video.
At the same time if engaging at distance, factors such as sight radius and trigger make a big difference in hit probability where a miss could result in collateral damage or tragedy. Choice of DA for dark, close quarters and SA for distance is probably a good thing.
The bottom line is training and practice is paramount.
Ridiculous?
Is not a DA revolver more akin to a Chevy than a 5000 HP Nitro fueled dragster?
Would one study technique from a master or an average guy?
Is the statement training and practice trumps action that controversial or is it reasonable? What' are the odds of a average guy missing the target with any action beyond near point blank range under stressful conditions?
Chris, Would you advise that only hammerless DAO automatics be used for self defense in accordance with the POU for revolvers?
Why the sarcasm? Did I not agree mostly with your points? I only said that a DA revolver offers a situational choice (it won't go to SA by itself) and that practice is required for any action. Is this ridiculous or reasonable?
To be clear, I'm not the one who said you were being ridiculous. But to answer your question, the liability of using a revolver single action does not diminish when the distance to the target increases. Learning to shoot double action with reasonable accuracy at medium range is not a super human skill -- it's quite doable. If someone is unable or unwilling to devote the time to achieve that modest amount of skill, I doubt they are going to be any more competent with a single action when faced with life threatening stress. A nervous, inexperienced shooter who is uncertain of their skill with the double action revolver is not going to suddenly become cool and collected when they cock the hammer. There's a chance they may be more likely to hit their target under stress, but they are also exactly the kind of person who is likely to set off a round when and where they don't intend to.
Chris, I truly apologize for attributing Waters response to you.
I really value your videos because your pretty evenhanded about stating both sides of an issue and should have recognized the the tone of the response was different from the way you present.
While I've some experience with firearms I've practically none in blogging. I should have noticed that there was no shamrock on the response so I shouldn't have attributed the sarcastic response to you.
I have no use for self- appointed 'fan boys' but instead value respectful alternate view points to get at the heart of a matter because in the end reality always wins over belief or opinion.
Personally I use DAO for deep concealment because I don't want a light trigger leading to a possible ND nor a safety to prevent firing in an emergency.
The primary auto I carry (PPQ, CZ 75 or Glock) have the possibility of a ND on the second shot under stressful conditions. The technique you shared in a different video to employ the decocker (where applicable) to mitigate the risk I found to be usefull. The emphasis you have placed on training is spot on. A well meaning, but stressed good guy can be just as dangerous as the bad guy if he misses.
While we may disagree on minutiae, I agree with most of your points and apologize once again to attributing Water's statement to you.
Paul harrell: My experiences, my training, you be the judge.
This guy: GeT YoUR HaMmEr REmOved
iTs A SaFeTy LiAbiLItY
Everybody's got a right to an opinion.
I agree with him, but the comments here are hilarious lol
@@farstrider79 agreed, but some people present their opinion from a point of authority while being condescending, while others have a little more tact.
@@Megakoolguy357 he was hardly condescending
2:09: And cops killed far fewer bystanders back then because they didn't empty their guns every time a suspect sneezed.
@methjuice thats fucked up
I respect your opinion but I disagree
Why?
+Tuton25 Oh, so we're doing this now?
So, what about a 9mm revolver? Best of both worlds?
What has the caliber to do with this? :-D
g4meplayonly I'm assuming he means because 9mm is accurate might help compensate a DAO revolver
I served 33 years in federal law enforcement and even competed with our national pistol team firing double action only. However, now that I am retired I have converted my wheel guns to Single Action Only for several reasons.
As an aside, my partner and I tested SA vs DA with the targets set for very rapid face times. We started from an aimed in position simulating a gun fight where the antagonist pops out from behind cover and snaps a quick a shot at the good guy and then ducks back behind cover quickly. We found quite quickly that engaging the target Single Action was significantly better than double action, like a lot lot better. And, with us both being full time firearms instructors we were able to do well double action since that was our stock in trade. That informal DA vs SA test was a real eye opener for us. (BTW - The turning targets were at 25 yards, which is one reason that Single Action was markedly better than Double Action.)
This is the sort of fallacy you get when you have semi-automatic guys who have now "rediscovered" revolvers treating them like they are a low capacity Glock.
Don Ward I think he's putting the word out about revolvers so Lucky Gunner can move some more wadcutters. He is correct in presenting double action as the safer option in a fight. Luckily most of us just use a revolver for sport and have grown used to the short click of single action. Bottom line is any gun is a tool and the presented method here will reduce unintended discharges while using the tool in a situation where we will probably fumble and make trigger mistakes. I'm not a swat sharpshooter. Are you?
It's all about how people are introduced to guns and trained with them. My boys are young, but I've set aside some 6.5 barrel Heritage Rough Riders (22LR) for them. After they are comfortable with 22LR rifles, they can work on mastering pistol shooting. If they learn the basics from a SA, moving to a DA will be an easy, albeit disappointing, transition.
@@---cr8nw far different shooting a double action revolver as compared to sa. training on one wont transition to the other
@@leelizardwilcox6271 it's not a transition, Single action is safe at the range, and when working with new shooters. You have to cock the gun every time you shoot. And if you're teaching someone new to handguns it's easier for them to hit the target accurately. It is an easy transition to make. Not saying you won't have to learn the differences in the two. But it's a good place to start. A .22 single action should be the first handgun anyone picks up. The same as a single shot .22 should be the first rifle a person learns, or single shot shotgun. Simplicity of operation makes it easier to focus on learning to hit what you're shooting at.
Don Ward I thought so...
My first pistol was an old Smith and Wesson J frame 38 revolver. It was a very easy pistol to conceal. It has a hammer, and I read about the problems of drawing a gun like that and having the hammer snag. I wasn't willing to bob the hammer, so I simply trained myself to place my thumb over the hammer when drawing, and I never had a problem with it snagging on the draw.
Another thing is - if you've been in a foot pursuit, fight, climbing over things etc., your gun hand may actually feel sort of weak, and this may be a hindrance to double action-shooting. This has been shown in physical agility tests where the recruit has to dry-fire a revolver six times (DA) after the test. Often it will be somewhat difficult to pull the trigger quickly without being inaccurate, let alone all six times. LAPD's old test had applicants dry fire (at the end of an obstacle course) through a brass ring, and if the muzzle touched it, they failed.
I disagree with your premise entirely. I can envision combat situations where one accurately placed shot could be a fight ender.
+jeremiah johnson Me too. Practice DA!
I do Chris, almost entirely these days.
Keep up the good work man, you've got a great channel.
for a concealed carrier ending up in an active shooter situation, your job isn't to take out a hostage taker. Now if you were SWAT going into the action, now you are in a combat situation and that one shot could matter. Stop dreaming of being the hero.
This video's premise is for the average day folk where carrying is for staying alive long enough to GTFO of the AO. In that context, he is 100% right. In the end, I am with you and will be keeping my SA ability as I do prefer the slight edge it gives me if I want it.
Carrying a firearm does not denote that I have a "job" period....and I can dream of being the "hero" as much as I like.
That aside, the end game of self defense is putting at least one well placed shot in the bulls eye, or bulls eyes as the case may be and ending the situation.....heroically so, if only in my fantasies.
and at the same time I can imagine a situation where someone goes to draw their revolver and the hammer gets snagged on clothing and they get stabbed to death trying to draw it at close distance.
If you only have 6 shots, at longer distances for a MORE accurate shot: youNEED single-action capability.
johnny walker
Your a fool
@@jedimasterjoe5386
He's right though ...at long distances, it's harder to claim self defense in court.
@@danklordsupreme8864 wrong
@@jedimasterjoe5386
No, you're wrong.
@@danklordsupreme8864 WRONG
I'm keeping the hammer spur on my Model 19, just in case I need to revoke some diplomatic immunity. It would be hard to shoot half the length of a freighter in double-action, no matter how much you roll your neck.
Couldn't resist!
+Dave Voecks Riggs could have done it DA.
Everyone is not Riggs
@@LuckyGunner you mean Murtagh. He carried a revolver
This is the first video this channel has put out that I've completely disagreed with. Why remove a feature that's an option to use?
+Mucky Because it's a safety liability and a potential hindrance to a smooth draw stroke.
+6236003 Snagging potential depends a lot on how the gun is carried. With an IWB holster covered by a thin untucked shirt, snagging is fairly common in my experience. I can avoid it if I make a concerted effort to clear the shirt in a specific way, but all it takes is a slight gust of wind to make it snag anyway. I can avoid it much easier by removing the hammer spur that's not really benefiting me in any way to begin with. As far as practicing SA or cocking before deciding to fire, that's exactly what many of the commenters here are saying they plan to do. If you are content to ignore the hammer spur and you don't have any snagging issues, then party on.
or covering it with your thumb which has been stated (and ignored) numerous times
depends on the gun, if it's a modern ruger, it wouldn't fire even if the hammer slipped the sear, you might wanna rethink your question
Iwb carry mine covered by a thin untucked shirt all the time. Never been a problem. Of course unlike a lot of folks I practice my draw about daily with outfit that I actually where everywhere, including the range. I do however prefer DA 99.9% of the time. I train some with SA just so I'm competent, but I've even got in the habit of starting each magazine of a semiauto in DA. I will keep my spur just in case I need a very accurate distance shot. You do you.
I have a 44 bull dog with shroud & nub .... love it , glad I have the nub . Also love the 629 3 in & 44 Redhawk 7.5 in just fine . I want my single action ALSO !
We need some verifiable statistics to show that single action firing has caused accidental deaths over people who kept their hammers down. Just saying, empirical evidence is necessary when making an argument.
ua-cam.com/video/mHLS7VrBb3w/v-deo.html
Excellent video. I practice ignoring the hammer spur on my revolvers. I shoot 99% in double action, but I like the option of single action in the 1% of my shooting. Thanks for your good work and advice.
All very logical and intelligently justified ... but shooting SA is just so dang fun!
Nonsense!!!
Hell Yeah!
+Waters, you have it backwards. If you learn how to shoot single action first, transitioning to double action is easy, but disappointing. If you learn double action shooting first, it's much harder to get accustomed to proper shooting technique and trigger discipline.
@Waters that's silly.
Back in 1980, I fired a Sturm-Ruger .357 revolver that was equipped with a combat action trigger mechanism. It was buttery smooth and would make DA firing a cinch and very accurate with proper recoil management. I don't understand why the term 'combat action trigger' has disappeared from the contemporary scene. Such consideration is very relevant to the topic of this video.
For me, I love SA revolvers primarily because avoiding a negligent discharge is of utmost importance to me. In everyday life, there will be a moment where you are focusing on something more than your gun, that's unavoidable. It's very, very difficult to unintentionally fire a SA unless you set the hammer right as you draw and have poor trigger discipline. If I was a cop, I would use something else, but I'm not, I'm just an electrician that might find himself in a situation where a gun is needed.
It's why I like my Sig P250. It's basically a "higher capacity", fast loading, DAO revolver.
+newrunner91 Highly underrated. Really disappointed Sig discontinued the 250.
I like the P250 too.
I don't get it.
I guess the yankee marshal hasn't seen this video yet.
+Steve Haney He would probably call me a "tacti-tard" and tell me I need a Rhino.
Lucky Gunner Ammo that comment wins the internet for today
Of course we don't take him seriously, bruh. Have you seen the opening titles on each of his videos? Dancing around with puppet-guns, dancing in a rain jacket or poncho, and then a drawn image of him flexing.
Kinda hard to take that seriously.
+Vlapryde ~ re: TYM intro, I do like the irony of a gun using a pipe wrench to kill, because you know, "guns are made to kill"; pity it's not done well, but I don't need to be entertained that badly. I agree with him mostly, but then, if I put bumper stickers on my truck, most people would see the truck and think, "What an idiot" - thus negating the sticker.
Lucky Gunner Ammo You both love Berettas and DA/SA in general, so at least you have that common ground.
Chris, on a side note, could you do a video on how to shoot a short barrel revolver better, like you did with small pocket pistols. I have no problems shooting fist size holes at 10 yards with any good CC pistol, but double action j frames it looks like buckshot.
+starshipfantastica Good idea. I will do this.
Those are some good tips. Grant has a lot of solid revolver info, but I assure you, he is far from being the "last of the revolver gurus." There are still plenty of retired-LE guys around who have done some very extensive field work with revolvers, and they have a great deal of valuable knowledge to share.
Fair enough, until I have the cash to travel to a class given by a Cunningham or a Clint Smith I'll just have to make due with being the only revolver shooter in a given course.
I was ready to defend this to the hilt (or pommel) as I am a pretty ingrained SA shooter with my Chiappa Rhino, but your points were concise, informative, and well investigated. I will be reviewing my technique and probably taking a revolver class going forward.
So much good information on this channel! Thanks for this, I recently learned from an instructor I highly respect exactly what you are saying here. He is also a gunsmith and so seeing a spur-less revolver in his shop kicked off the conversation. I enjoyed the history lesson you recapped as to how we got here. My wife is a good shot and does well in the all day pistol classes we take together but she often struggles with manipulating the slide on our semi-autos so we might be adding our first revolver to family to give her something that she can perform all the necessary tasks on. Funny side note, we went to look at some revolvers in the store the other day and when I handed her one with a thumb spur she immediately started thumbing it back and firing single action. Her having never held or fired one before I can only assume it is human instinct or picked up from movies!
I elected for the lcrx with hammer. I almost always practice double action only but I do like having a single action option. Here is why. Let's say I am shopping in a mall and an active shooter situation occurs. I may want to make a plus 7 yard shot and out of a short barrel it's difficult in DA
+gstea1 The LCR has a great DA trigger. With a little practice, you will be making good DA hits at 15 yards or more. Single action is too much of a liability under stress for the reasons I mentioned in the video.
I agree on the LCR trigger. My LCR is so easy to shoot well DA.
Lucky Gunner Ammo having a revolver with a hammer is no different than a Da/SA pistol. I am no more inclined to pull the hammer back on a pistol than I am on a revolver but I have the option if a precision shot is required.
+gstea1 My DA/SA pistols have a lever to allow them to be safely decocked. A cocked revolver under stress quickly becomes a safety issue if that precision shot is not needed.
Lucky Gunner Ammo I would not drop a revolver hammer, other than when actually firing , unless I unloaded cylinder.
I think a single-action capability extends the practical range of a revolver if you are caught in a longer range situation, especially if using magnum rounds. A double action only design can make it a bit more difficult to land shots on a more far away assailant. However, it is indeed opinion. I just prefer to have more control over when the hammer falls.
This is a great example of why I like Lucky gunner videos. There's so much useful information packed into this video. Having never owned or even fired a revolver I can't say whether I agree or disagree on not having single action capability, but it's videos like this that allow me to learn about topics I know nothing about. I'm planning on buying a revolver just to get familiar with shooting one.
Very good video. I have a S&W Model 10 SA/DA and a 64 SA/DA, as well as a snub nose, hammerless. I practice DA only with all of them. Your points are right-on.
I humbly disagree (no disrespect whatsoever). I personally am much more accurate/confident in my shot placement with a single action.
With a bit of practice you can be pretty much just as accurate at self defense distances
Josh William with just as much practice double action is a lot faster
@@borkwoof696 Have you witnessed how fast the top SASS shooters are????
Billy the Kid and his ilk never had a problem making kills with a SA and those guns had hammers.
And to add, from the hip, has no one ever seen the movie Young Guns?
Precise shot placement in a hostage type situation at more than 15 feet away? Single action all day if I had ample time to cock the hammer. I like options and I really like S&W's single action.
MrBigden37 so you're on your city's hostage rescue team, now?
Depends on who that hostage is there Ian(family member, friend, etc...) A much more precision shot should be easier to accomplish in single action than DAO. Others mileage may vary. But that's just, like, my opinion, man.
Ian: If you're the one there when the goblin grabs your spouse or child, you just became the hostage rescue team.
Great video! This has been my favorite video so far. I found the history very interesting and appreciated seeing how it applied to the different designs and schools of thought over the years of the revolver universe.
Great video, very informative. Tom Givens once fired my model 65 upside down with his pinky double action and shot the q dead center that is in the top corner on the q target.
I saw him do the same with a snubby.
Any 4" or especially 6" revolver could also be useful as a hunting gun. Keeping the ability to shoot a hunting revolver as single-action makes that gun much more useful in that dual capacity. While I've rarely practiced with any of my revolvers in single-action, I like to practice a little bit that way in case I ever wanted to use the gun for hunting.
Another point is that if one were injured during a gunfight and could only use one hand, particularly the non-dominant hand, having the ability to use a defensive revolver in single-action would be a tremendous benefit. At that point, there's no question of not shooting if the opportunity arises, and the lighter, shorter trigger pull would make shooting in self-defense easier.
In terms of concealed carry, I love the Smith & Wesson 642 with an internal-only hammer. I like the look of the gun, and I like not having a hammer snagging on things. I hope that I would never have to hunt with this gun, so single-action for hunting wouldn't be an issue. If an injury forced me to shoot one-handed with my left hand, I'd be angry that I didn't have single-action as an option, but I still like the Model 642 enough that I choose this gun for concealed carry.
I realize that you get more clicks by making absolutist statements that will outrage some people, and those clicks may bring money or maybe just advertising for your store. However, I disagree with the absolutist approach of this video.
I appreciate the research that you've done and the history that you've presented here.
He’s not talking about hunting guns. He’s talking about defensive revolvers specifically.
@@knifedance2402 Even so, the absolutist approach is foolish. One never knows when a firearm owned for self-defense purposes might be needed for hunting purposes. As I said in my original comment, one may end up shooting one-handed in a self-defense scenario because of injury. Shooting with the non-dominant hand is much easier if one shoots in single-action.
Just gonna say pre-viewing that the pun in the title made this revolver guy laugh.
These old pictures that show the evolution of the technique are so cool.
I love how educational & fun Lucky Gunner videos are!
Thanks!
Tell it to Wyatt Earp or Bob Munden...Lots of folks found out the hard way how well a SAA worked...It's all about knowing how to use the tool.
I like the idea of a single action option because for one I take my 4" magnum camping as a brush gun as well as my daily carry.
Excellent historical research and study. Must have taken quite a bit of time. Thanks for sharing !
bro love your shows. one of the most professional shows out there very knowledgeable
Thanks!
I always thought the shot, not the draw was the most important part of the armed response.
I can fire my single action very effectively and with more accuracy. Than most Who are shooting double action or semiautomatic handguns.
I've been in a active gun scenario and single action saved a life. an individual was hopped up on speed broke a man's door down and attacked him. a fight insued and I was able to grab a gun as they separated. I drew and demanded the offender to stop. he had been knocked to his knees and I watched his eyes as he decided to go for it. as he began to tense his legs intending to spring for me and the pistol, which was already pointed squarely at him, I cocked the hammer letting him know I was resolute in my action. without single action capability, I had three options: 1. shoot him, something I'd rather not do unless I must. 2. fire a round near him, which is still dangerous as this was in a neighborhood and I don't like stray bullets. 3. allow him to attack me. if I hadn't single action, that man would be dead. single action saved his life. whether you want it or not is opinion, but it ABSOLUTELY has its place, even in personal protection.
As a recruit cop in 1968 I had an FBI firearms instructor who carried a "Fitz Special" Colt detective special (Google it) and he could keep all of his shots in a 10" circle, one handed, at 50 yards. Despite being awed by his skill I always shot 50 yards single action and anything closer double action. I still do today. Its all about how you train.
My snubbies are all shrouded-hammer models, but I would not own a full-size revolver without single-action capabilities, nor would 99.999 percent of wheel gun buyers, no matter what some snot-nose says on the Internet in an attempt to get attention by riling people up.
If you can't safely handle a revolver with the hammer cocked, then you shouldn't even carry a gun in the first place. Trigger discipline is key.
Spot on.
IF YOU NEED TO COCK THE HAMMER ON A DA REVOLVER TO USE IT ESPECIALLY IN A SELF DEFENSE SITUATION JUST HANG IT UP.
Accidents happen and they are a lot more likely to happen in a high stress situation with a light single action trigger
@@leelizardwilcox6271 Use your inside voice.
When youre right youre right
Excellent video, and excellent advice. My edc is a DOA snub nose 38 revolver, and at up to 15 yards, either the Smith and Wesson 442 or the Rock Island Armory (bobbed hammer) are spot on accurate.
Great video. Makes the point I have stood by for many years. I carry a J frame most often with the hammer spur removed with my Dremmel. That spur was like a fish hook, easy to get caught up on things
however a single action trigger pull would be great for longer distance hunting revolvers. like some of the big frame revolvers with Scopes and magnified sights. but that's a completely different subject altogether
I really appreciate that you always take the time and effort to do proper research on the issue and actually educate people. It means a lot, and it goes even further considering you're only an ammo retailer and nobody asked you to go to all this trouble. Thank you.
Lol … the more we fire our guns, the better for him! … But it’s all good. 😀
I agree with the argument put forth in this video. I own a number of SA/DA revolvers, but when I started CCW, I got an LCR to carry- leaving me no choice but to become competent shooting DA.
Good points. In law enforcement, we are taught to use double action only, so I am trained that way. But I still prefer having the single action feature. I often carry a Smith model 638, which has a shrouded hammer, but retains the single action ability. I practice double action in combat shooting, bur still like having the single action option for woods and fishing carry.
I disagree. The S&W 638 Airweight I carried daily for the last several years (until recently) was DA/SA with an extremely nice trigger in either facet. I practiced mostly DA at close range, however what was so nice about that beautiful, short, crisp SA trigger pull was my ability to take shots accurately easily at greater distances. With that little revolver and the nice SA trigger I could put 4/5 rounds on a 12" round at 100yds consistently. So, if I needed that extended range potential, I had it. However I can attest to having 2 different NDs while trying to safely drop the "hammer" one that revolver while on the range. While neither was dangerous to anyone around it definitely shows the weakness of the extremely small covered hammer design.
As a general rule in the firearms industry: Having options is better than having none. Modularity is important to a lot of people, like having piccatiny rails on semi auto pistols. SA is FAR easier to use if you are using your pistol for literally anything other than self defense, which (contrary to the tone of this video) is going to be the vast majority of the time you pull the trigger on one of these pistols. You’re either going to use it to shoot paper, steel, soda cans (or other fun mediums) or game before you’re ever going to use it on a human being within rule of law. If you don’t like SA, don’t use it, even train to ignore it - but to say removing the option entirely is better than keeping it so you won’t trick your brain into using it detrimentally makes absolutely no sense to me. SA/DA makes a pistol able to be used for target shooting and/or hunting purposes as well as self defense. Removing SA just stripped the gun of its viability for other, more realistic uses.
No, that isn’t a rule. In fact, if any rule has developed, it is that fewer options are better, because you’re likely to spend too long considering them in high-stress situations. Ever wonder why a lot of military rifles lack adjustable gas blocks? Why semiautos are so often SAO these days? Why CCW pistols so rarely have a manual safety? Simple! The more functions, the more stuff to get between you and firing the gun, the more chance there is that human error enters the equation. Generally, when civilians lose armed encounters, it’s because they weren’t fast enough. It’s basically never because they were out-ranged. In fact, I’m unaware of it ever happening.
The point is that DAO revolvers actually have physical advantages over conventional revolvers. Advantages beyond the question of training. No hammer spur to catch on, nothing to let debris enter the action, one less thing to get grabbed and make the weapon inoperable, (which is far more likely to happen than some 60 yard SA shot). DAO revolvers are just better for concealed carry.
I’m all about options. I bought a .357 magnum revolver for a wide range of caliber choices, and I bought a double/single action for the trigger pull choice.
As a long time handgun hunter I sure realize the benefit of SA accuracy of a revolver at 50+ yds that you could never do shooting DA so while a cop may never need to shoot that far why remove that option in the slim chance he may need it firing at someone behind cover.For a cop I'm sure the bad guy isn't always at 15 ft in the open.
I’ve got the S&W Bodyguard. Best of both worlds.
Very interesting and well-rearched video. Please keep doing what you are doing.
I always practice double action with my revolvers. All have had the triggers tuned. I do sometimes hunt with my single action 44 mag. though. I have to admit that I love my 44 Special Bulldog with a bobbed hammer and very smooth trigger job. Really nice smooth shooter.
HIGHLY disagree. I'm a gigantic revolver fanatic, and starting off with single action, I find myself using it better than double action revolvers. I still use double action models, and I love them, but to limit one's way of self defense is a little odd
As long as you’re a Fast shot You won’t need a double action
Some amazing amount of research you have done.
Excellent video, I shoot my revolvers almost always double action. That happened after i acquired a S&W m 64 NY-1 double action only revolver. I am now more accurate with a revolver and a semi auto!!!!!!!!!!!
I respect your decision but fully disagree. While I by no means think that you have to be thumbing the hammer in 99.9% of defensive shooting scenarios. There is almost no downside to having the ability to thumb back your hammer. Maybe because you can catch the hammer on your clothing. Not a significant concern if you train the way you carry. The reason I will never buy a DAO revolver in my life is one if economics. When I purchase a firearm it's for self-defense and fun at the range. I really don't want a gun that can't be fired single action. I like making a jagged hole in paper. And I can't afford to pick and choose which guns are for fun and which are for defense.
I am joining those who disagree with you. Some of your points are of course correct. But all of us cannot be Jerry Miculek and be as accurate DA as SA at 20 yards. For sure, most CCW defensive situations will be at very small distances, and DA is great...but when a terrorist or crazy person comes into the theater while I am watching a movie and he starts shooting people, my gut tells me I will have the chance for one perfectly placed 357 shot...well aimed. Single Action. How about practicing both until proficient? If someone goes to the range only once every year or two, DA or SA are equally ineffective.
the "terrorist or crazy person" in the theater is going to be all over the news, but the VAST majority of defensive encounters are something else entirely. He addressed that in the video.
@@cheefussmith9380 Then by your own admission, then statistically you won't ever get into a defensive encounter and therefore won't need a gun to begin with. And that fire extinguisher at the house, well, you may as well toss that because chances are that it will need replacement prior to you ever needing it anyways..
These Lucky Gunner videos are excellent.
Good video and GREAT discussion! I carry an M49, and practice DA almost exclusively; occasionally taking some SA shots for fun and long-range practice. Staging the trigger to cylinder lockup, pausing to adjust aim then releasing the shot can be even trickier than cocking the hammer first.
Another advantage of a hammer spur is when doing a rotation check. Pulling the hammer back until the cylinder can be rotated to ensure free rotation is MUCH safer than pulling the trigger back to unlock the cylinder, for obvious reasons. Even if a revolver is rendered DAO, a minimal spur can still be left on the hammer for this reason.
Lastly, when lowering the hammer of a 'modern' rebounding hammer or transfer-bar revolver, if you let go of the trigger after releasing the hammer, the safety mechanism will keep the gun from firing even if the hammer slips--I just tried this with my M49.
How about just follow the rules of firearm safety.
1.All guns are always loaded
2.Dont point the gun at anything/anyone you dont want to destroy
3. Finger off the Trigger until your sights are on target/threat
4. Be sure of what you are shooting and beyond.
Seems like if you follow those and use common sense you should not have a problem. As a LEO instructor I love showing shooters the potential of a revolver in Single Action mode at the rifle range. Not much difference between my cocked S&W 66 and my M&P 40 or most striker fired autos. If your booger hook is on the bang switch its gonna go off.
+Eliasha Bourne I'm all for following safety rules, but just declaring "I follow The Rules" in no way ensures that you are incapable of ever making a mistake, particularly under stress. Here's a good article with some thoughts worth considering: www.shootingillustrated.com/articles/2017/5/9/the-safety-dance/
well some of us like to shoot guns for fun to and on your larger wheel guns hunting is a factor as well. I get the argument for DAO, but i think theres enough argument to have the option even in self defense/defense of others. Its a personal preference thing more than anything I think. There are no absolutes in self defense theres to many variables.
Kind of a straw man argument I think really. You assuming most revolvers sold are used defensively. Most guns are sold are for fun or hunting or just because some one wants it. If you want a defensive revolver without a external hammer than your gonna buy one. If your gonna buy a range toy than you might not.
What you just wrote - THAT is a strawman argument. where do you get that he is assuming most revolvers sold are used defensively?
You understand he's not trying to ban single-action revolvers or even trying to tell you not to buy or use one, right? his argument is for a defensive carry pistol, the DAO is superior. He made no comment on target shooting or hunting which are obviously very different uses for a firearm.
Bought a Ruger SP101, 357 mag, 21/4 barrel and a S&W 686 plus, 4” last year and love them both with exposed hammers
I have thought about this a lot since I first watched it and have come to the conclusion that you are correct.
About the only reason I see for shooting a good revolver single-action might be hunting. Possible other reasons could be function testing and bullseye competition.
The test for me will always be action shooting competition such as USPSA and IDPA. Time pressure is a central element. Punching holes in bullseye targets with tight aiming points is of no consequence. Any results obtained that way are nearly meaningless, apart from function testing.
I run a lot of USPSA and IDPA matches and watch many hundreds of shooters shooting at full speed with time pressure. Not many revos are seen anymore in USPSA since they screwed up the division rules. IDPA still sees some, but the number has fallen off recently there as well.
I shot Revo in USPSA for several years in the past and made "B" class. The targets I was shooting at were from eight feet to 35 yards. I also shot Stock Service Revolver in IDPA for about ten years, first with a battered old Python and then a Smith 586. I made near-Expert there but didn't shoot enough classifiers to quite make it. The target distances were generally shorter but still extending past 20 yards from time to time.
I never, ever thumbcocked my revolvers while competing. To do so would be to lose.
I did observe more than a few shooters try alternating between single- and double-action. The actual results on paper, timer, and scoresheet were never good. One of the best IDPA revo shooters I knew used to use both methods for a few years, but finally came to his senses and has run his 625 straight DA ever since. His scores improved.
Inside of 20 yards, for any revolver shooter who practices and stays even slightly proficient, double-action is vastly superior in terms of hits with time.
My shooting buddy Mike, who is a Grand Master in two USPSA divisions (which means he's inhumanly fast and accurate- watching a GM run a stage is to be stunned if you haven't seen how well a pistol can be shot) doesn't compete with revolvers, but does hunt with a GP100 stoked with some unpublishable handloads. The deer he's taken with it were shot double-action. The longest shot so far was about 35 yards. He hit it in the heart and it went down instantly.
Furthermore, on the rare occasion he goes out with a revolver instead of his beloved .38 Super, he uses his DA-only LCR, with which he can clean a five-plate plate rack at ten yards in about two seconds out of the holster.
In other words, shoot DA. Leave the hammer spur at home and shoot better, faster.
I'd have a good solid hit on a bad guy in 2 seconds, than a miss in 1.75 seconds !
Or buy a SCCY. 10 rds, DAO, $200 used, fast reloads. Hides like a 38 with double the firepower.
It's not a bad option, but there are better options at a close price point, especially if you're willing to buy used. I think I'd lean towards a Ruger for quality and reliability, perhaps one of their budget EC9 pistols.
When I was an Army MP we were trained and carried either .38s or .45s. While we were trained on single-action first shot we never used it in practice. The remaining part of our sidearm training was always double action for the reasons you stay but primarily nervous pointmen.
Great video, loved the historical information and pictures!
Don't know that there's any valid reason to permanently modify the hammer on a DA/SA revolver, but practicing in DA only with a revolver is certainly prudent. If you're so inclined to only shoot a revolver DA only, just buy one that doesn't have a hammer spur. As for me, I'll keep my hammer stock.
Yep, I understand that. However, I still wouldn't modify my handgun in such a manner. But then again, I don't use my Ruger for self defense - I have too many semi-auto pistols for that role. ;-)
that's a training issue, nothing more, nothing less
@@davidgiles9751 "But then again, I don't use my Ruger for self defense" then you're not who he is talking about at all, are you?
If I know Im about to use my revolver.... I'm cocking the hammer. More accurate first shot.
I agree with you on the double action matter, for certain applications, however, I will point out that revolvers keep single action because they are sold, and very often so, as sporting tools or outdoormen's tools. We don't leave in a world of "combat", so to speak.
Hi. Thanks for the video. this was helpful. I tended to do SA shooting with revolvers because I learned how to shoot when I was a teenager with an M1911 which is SA only. After watching this I'm now trying to learn how to get used to DA shooting more.
As in most things in life, it's better to have more options.
while I concur that in a defensive situation DA is the answer, however, there are many more revolver applications beyond that. I understand that defense is your focus, Mr. Baker, and I do consider you a go-to with regards to that. Further, this video is a magnificent distillation of the history of revolver technique and philosophy. The headline could use a tweak though.
I could swear the "defensive" was not in the title before...
+Michael H I added it shortly after I posted the video. Since nearly all of my videos here are self-defense related, I didn't think it was necessary to make the long title longer by specifying "defensive revolvers." But it quickly became clear that some viewers believed I was criticizing their hunting or plinking revolvers, so I amended the title for clarity.
Lucky Gunner Ammo Ah, thought I was getting old or something. Thanks for the clarity, and thanks again for your work.
Great Info, most people are so in love with their plastic pistol they will never experience the Revolver! In our modern day era the Revolver is still so Significant, it's a great firearm that has stood the test of Time!
Very well put together and informative presentation. I don't necessarily agree with all of the opinions but I very much appreciate the thoughtful and straightforward video.
In a home defense situation when I can take a surprising first shot from a hiding place, I would prefer to do it with Magnum and single action.
Pay a gunsmith to make your gun crappier. Yeah, no.
My mom's S&W has a great double action trigger pull. It is how she was trained to shoot in gummit officer training in the late 70's. The trigger was firm but not stiff. It was quite smooth after the thousands of rounds she fired.
Perfect practice makes perfect.
Superb and very thorough overview on the use of DA revolvers.
Although admittedly very unlikely, in a 3rd party defense situation a precise, aimed, single-action shot could prove a life-saver. Yes, lawyers love that garbage hair-trigger nonsense they present to ragingly ignorant jurors when describing single-action mode. Easy solution, don't use that mode unless the circumstances, though again unlikely, warrant it. An S&W 638 is every bit as capable as a 642. But with a single-action mode that stays out of the way unless needed.
Yard Sale Dale in a courtroom where your fate lies in the hands of a likely uninformed jury the weight of the trigger pull certainly can matter a great deal. Reality doesn't matter nearly as much there as their *perception* of the incident, which can be swayed by a skilled lawyer.
NGMonocrom // I have carried the 1911 for years and now carry the Glock model 41 in " 45 " caliber and I must say that only experienced individuals should carry the 1911 because of what I have scene to go wrong at the range due in part that many gun owners do not practice has they should 🔫
Yard Sale Dale // It does not matter how knowledgeable we are has gun owners there are skilled Lawyers who are trained to sway a Jury in believing that you are a crazy man e 8th a gun and that is that . Defense attorneys love uniformed citizens and just about Firearms but they also are interested in your level of education and sometimes when interviewing possible Jury individuals these lawyers may ask questions of interlic on other issues and if these people don't understand a word or phrase of a question and this lawyer has to change the way the question was asked this lawyer is smiling because now he knows he can have a sucker on the Jury 😆 We has gun owners need to not only depend on our knowledge but to get that smart lawyer to agrue on our behalf against dumb minded Jurors who lack other interlical qualities 😃
Michael Carnes okay but how the hell will a "hair trigger" become a problem if you *intended* to shoot someone in the first place? How would it even be determined if you shot single or double action is beyond me.
Titanium Rain. Everybody involved with the lawsuit. Would want all the infermation on all persons that were involved in the crime. About the firearm as well as everything alce that is associated with the crime.