"For years the PVP community has been saying "Bring an escort" to the PVE community ... I am now telling the PVP community to "Bring friends." I think thats an excellent point. The first rule of a gunfight is to bring a gun, but the second rule of a gunfight is to bring friends with guns. The third rule of a gunfight is to have your friends bring their friends. It is my belief that master modes will still allow skilled pilots to punch above their weight (I hate that term considering how much CIGs marketing team enjoys slathering it on everything.) but at the end of the day, quantity is a quality of its own.
" think thats an excellent point. The first rule of a gunfight is to bring a gun, but the second rule of a gunfight is to bring friends with guns. The third rule of a gunfight is to have your friends bring their friends." What an amazing reply. Thank you. Have a pin.
Thats part of the problem tho. The vast majority of players play solo, and its hard enough as it is. I actually like the direction of MM, but in practice its a big middle finger to most of SC players honestly.
I am sure a lot of them play solo because there is no reason not to play solo. But there are other factors like how annoying it is to do anything as a group.
Not sure which side you are on of this one lol, yes "they play solo because there is no reason not to"....I agree people do things they like or enjoy doing unless forced to do that which they don't. The alternative, being forced to group play which will hurt the casual player who play the game to relax or zone out & not have to think after a stresful day to just salvage/mine or haul alone due to your other comment on group play annoyances plus setup or time to organize.@@BuzzCutPsycho
I think the constantly regenerating shields should be dependant on shield size, smaller shields should have less or no constant regen, only relying on disengaged recharge. This way bigger ships have a more impactful place on the battlefield, and requires a more dedicated response
8:50 - I would suggest to add a damage buffer threshold before stopping the regen. So that if taking a few hit, it won't stop the shield regeneration unless a minimum amount of damage is done.
8:44 As always, mostly agree with your takes, but I have a small modification to suggest here. Instead of constantly recharging, what about *recharging until gate.* Meaning if you do 1% damage, the shield will just keep recharging, endlessly. You have to *shock* the shield with, say, 10-20% damage before it goes into "cooldown." The result would preferably be that you can't just pick tiny shots from a distance and work a shield down, BUT you also don't suffer from a basic dps gate *until the shield is gone.* Everytime a game does that type of dps-requirement to get past an entire shield with no complexity to it (including for the defending player), it gets drier. This also means specialized ships with big long range guns are capable of stunning a shield into is cool down, making it possible to work it down with strategy and placement, rather than just endless dps.
Totally valid and I would he fine with that too. I'm not at all married to constant regeneration as a feature and am perfectly happy with anything else that functionally accomplishes the same thing. Damage thresholds and gates are an excellent alternative when it comes to dealing with the chip damage. Good stuff man. Still think it would give a bonus worth mentioning to full shield power on the triangle?
@@BuzzCutPsycho Oh that's a good point! Maybe that's the damage-requirement. Low power on the triangle gets you 5% gate. Maxed gets you 30? That, or alter the recharge rate, perhaps. Agreed =]
See? You get it. I am not married to any of my ideas. I have always considered these videos public brainstorming. Perhaps I should mention that at some point huh?
Trichording is NOT only used to run and reset. It's also used for maneuvers during knife fighting. And frankly this is an aspect where MM is lackluster. Trichording is also used for tighter turns in racing. And again, racing is lackluster in MM without trichording. I have no issue with removing trichording itself. But he new FM needs to make up for it in a way or another. I like Master Modes. But I find the blind bashing of 45 turn and trichording extremely shortsighted when there is nothing in Master Modes that gives us the depth that was taken away by removing these elements. These are NOT exploits. Thee are not difficult to learn. And they could easily be taught by the game.
Numbers DO matter when the game design severely reduces the ability to evade, escape or regen. Hopefully, with future ship customisation and future auto-aim reduction then this does happen with our game.
Numbers always have, and always will in every single conflict in every single MMO. It’s always better to have two than one of equal products or resources. The guys that were complaining, we’re using such simple techniques that happened to be grossly over efficient and unrealistic. Every game has to weigh numbers vs skill. You don’t want a bunch of noobs in PVP fitted Vultures so numerous, they can beat a well oiled, thoughtful and disciplined group of elite soldiers. But you don’t want a single elite pilot, hopping in any light fighter and able to 3 v one consistently, and not even worry about it. There is a happy, medium . Right now 10% of the population is screaming about this. Before 90% was screaming that it was broken for 10 years
@@The_0G_Chad your statement is true in games where customisation is limited. In games where ship choice and shio customisation exists then we get role specialists.
@@BuzzCutPsycho it’s incredibly hard when they have the unrealistic 700 m a second velocity’s and two pilots usually counter rotating at 1K plus range to hit anything without auto aim. You wouldn’t need auto-aim if you had hit scan, good servers etc. The only times I complain about auto aim is close range with laser repeaters. Which means they are the outlier that are being abused. When’s the last time you honestly were worried about ballistic cannons in a turn fight? Also, if you turn auto down too much, you’re simply gonna make the size of the ship more important than anything. The real problem is repeaters having high velocity and incredibly low shot, deviation and much less negatives for missing the target and the fact they are normally on light very agile ships, and incredibly close ranges . If you open this up to 5K repeaters, and anything that has high velocity definitely needs auto-aim nerfs, or better yet auto aim needs to diminish exponentially at ranges to where it’s engaged fully in turn fights and never while moving slowly at range,
It really has only recently got some attention. And I am glad it is. I am bias towards numbers but I really want organized numbers. It's a hard balance, a tough line to walk. I think EVE may be a good example of said balance?
In terms of shield regen, I would probably give players choice of high regen shields and high capacity shields. The more aggressive / punching up you do, the higher shield cap you want. The more defensive / punching down you do, the higher regen speed you want. I honestly want loadout choices to matter. The concept of these "Bulwark fighters with tough shields" would make sense to Tevarin for example, who never considered retreating acceptable in the first place.
Thats a great suggestion. It is actually a shame that all the shields right now are the same. Perhaps they will do something like that with a component pass and overhaul?
"turns out, alienating the vast majority of your player base results in a dead game"!!!! Excellent video! Thank you! Everything you have said is so important and spot on. I am tired of the Vocal minority complaint about how they can't win fights they are out numbered in 5 to 1 any more
I did have a thought with regards to the weapon ranges. Fighting a hammerhead in mastermodes pirate swarm had me thinking about how the range and the spray is fundamentally a part of how that ship works is effectively the flying flak barge.
100%. I think at some point we are gonna get flak? But yes the area of denial spray is essentially what it is meant to do and has some insane range on eptu
so ready to jump into this new era. my old brain can't keep up with all the high speed trick flying dogfighting, i want to be able to use my tactics and not rely on an exploit of game mechanics
@@tibitzu365 there is something more to be said about the current flight model leading to pvp to be dead and populated by less than 1000 players whereas the majority of other experienced SC players. Not people "relatively new" to it express great disdain and avoid it. MM is coming for a reason and the current model is going away forever.
@tibitzu365 "I'm new" is where your comment should have ended. I'm not new and Iv flown enough in the game to know I hate it. Why are people still playing games like LoL/Dota/DoD/CS/Quake/Halo/Ect? All those games have a rather small barriers of entry yet require time and skill to master. I want SC as approachable and easy to play as possible while also being difficult to master. Right now, to play the game, you have to rebind and memorize how many keys? You have to understand how many exploits and bugs? You have to spend how much time in AC? You have to buy what kind of stick/foot pedals/extra button pad/eye tracking. None of those things even mean you will be a good pilot btw. This game currently suffers from an identity crisis MM appears to help further make SC into an MMO rather than a Space Sim.
@tibitzu365 you don't even know what full MM implementation looks like "new" player. If things need tweaking after implementation, sure, I'm all for things that need tweaking being tweaked. The pip wiggle is another exploit being eliminated by MM and may it die and never return. You act like two game breaking exploits is not alot, F off with that. Smooth brain "new" air chavs can go take a long one way trip to the bottom of the ocean Titan 1 style. The nice part is CiG is ignoring you, go practice your 45's in AC while you still can looser.
Bro, you're reminding me of my Last Oasis days. I was the lead tactician for my clan and the head officer for our artillery. You basically checked off a bunch of things I considered back then regarding combat economy, group dispersion/herding and AOE.
Hah is that a good thing I am reminding you of that? Sounds like it. I've been doing this sort of this since the 90s anyway. It is second nature at this point.
@BuzzCutPsycho good memories for sure! I really got into mmos and tactical strategy during the pandemic. I herded my enemies like sheep in that game lol.
@@BuzzCutPsycho I first played worlds adrift but only solo. Then I moved into last oasis where I eventually learned tactics from a word of warcraft vet. I've wanted to start world of warcraft but since it's a subscriber style game I'm going to wait until I'm settled into my career before going fully into that.
I appreciate you pointing out mistakes in older games to highlight that they shouldn't be needlessly repeated. Bunny hopping is stupid and "45's" are stupid.
I agree that 45s are stupid, but trichording is not. I like a lot of MM changes, but as it stands it really strips the current space combat of its rich character. Whats the point of having 6DF if you are just going to turn spaceflight into WWII dogfighting? I hope it gets a massive re-tuning as they implement MM into the PU.
@@sorincaladera936 I dont think that. Never said that at all. I also don't have a problem with jousting, its a perfectly valid and common dogfighting tactic. Joustings not the problem, flybys are the problem, and thats a skill issue. I know how to fly so I don't have that problem. When someone else starts to do high speed flybys you just turn early, match their speed and force a merge... one that puts you directly behind them if youre good.
Still not convinced MM is going to get us where CR wants things to be. But slowing things down at least reduces the jank. The potential problem is actually illustrated in your video example. In the video the Antares blew into the formation at speed and was able to get to the proper location to deploy the EMP. At the lower speeds of MM that Antares is going to have a much harder time SLOOOOLY flying into the center of such a formation, taking many more hits (especially if those Cutties have turret gunners.) I can foresee MM turning multi ship combat into something more like 18th or 19th century naval warfare (line combat, only in 3 dimensions) as opposed to the "WWII" style that CR dreams about.
It wont get us to the WW2 in space vision CR wants but it will make the game better overall. As for the speeds? Yeah, for sure, with the slower speeds it'll just have to be more durable to make it. IMO. And finally right now on the EPTU with Hammerheads they tend to stay at around 8k range slugging it out, rotating weak shields to spread damage while gunners work. So I guess it is a bit like 18th or 19th century but in space. Or maybe that is like WW2 battleships? :D I am not sure.
@@tibitzu365 sure. No doubt. But this was a presentation and observation of changes which could be made which is why I said in the video "with changes this can happen" or something to that effect
@@tibitzu365 examples were given how force multipliers would work and punish or dissuade blobbing. But you're lazer focused on the literal and not looking at the purpose and overarching goal of the example. Hence the "5 seconds 30, whatever" part. This implies it isn't a literal suggestion but an example of how to make smaller groups fight larger ones. Doesn't have to even be a disable. Can be a snare effect or dissorient.
Yes, long range chip damage is, to me, an evasion issue and not a range issue. Defensive options are required to negate this issue. This is where breaking target lock game play is required. We alreafy have chaff. Further, stealth or specialised ship components load choices should be developed to allow choices. Everything that is currently cistomisable is focussed on offensive capability and offensive endurance. The game desperately needs defensive loadout options, components that trade off offensive capabilities for defensive capabilities (Evasion, stealth, target signature disruption, countermeasures, E-war etc).
What do you think the evasion issue is? I saw they buffed the maneuver speed when using engine power. Is that a good enough solution do you think? I worry that too much more maneuvering and speed and we get back to the previous issue we had pre-MM. I could be wrong though. I do like the stealth development like you said. I never even thought of that. You're a smart cookie.
@@BuzzCutPsycho Perhaps, evasion could be something that inceeases with power triangle choices. Currently, power assignments are instant and capacitor and boost pool have a fixed ceiling. I'd like the ability to place 100% power assignment to engines and to gain a boost advantage that increases beyond a short term ceiling, perhaps, at the cost of forced shield HP depletion and/or weapons pool auto drain (Currently this isn't the case as the pool only retreats to zero when firing). Thus, power 50% to engines and 50% to shields would result in, over time, zero weapons pool, but the ships gains a defensive bonus with increased boost and shield pool. Note, boost affects G's, not too speed.
That isn't too bad what you suggested. The power triangle right now is very lacking and I feel like everything in-between 0 and 100 are worthless and may as well not even be there. I hate how binary of a choice it is and wish it was an actual choice and not a scripted decision. I am fine with engine power doing Gs.
Ive had good luck with evasion by surging forwards either boosting/ strafing to get out of their firing cone or a boosted corkscrew. Application of noise is also useful to break locks and buy windows to escape or reset the fight. Its still possible to evade. Its just a lot harder to do with with 100% effectiveness. @@BuzzCutPsycho
Good to know. I am currently investigating a video sent to me where you can set a stick to high deflection and do some insane pip wiggle. If it is a real thing I will incorporate it into a video.
Trichording itself is based on the physics of the world we live in which makes it absolutely intuitive. I'm no ace pilot, far from it, but I've thrusted in multiple vectors in every physics-based space game I've ever tried. I can't imagine how anyone would consider it an exploit any more than modern spacecraft would consider it exploiting reality. However, if it completely ruins gameplay or raises the bar so high as to push people away from even trying something then some compensating factor should be applied, realism be damned. How is trichording removed in MM? Does it just stop you from thrusting in multiple vectors at once? Or do the lower speeds just make it less impactful. The former would be unthinkable as it would absolutely ruin the immersiveness of a physics-based flight model so I'd prefer the second to be true. Or maybe I don't get it at all :)
The majority of your thrust comes from your engines and tri-cording is effectively removed entirely and gives very little G bonus if any. I think you're getting it. :D
They say MM lowers the skill ceiling, but it actually lowers the accessibility ceiling. People that are good at combat and tactics are still going to have the edge over those who don't. In EvE Online smaller skilled forces could undermine mega corps. Blob warfare was only useful in certain situations. There was a merc unit of 5-6 guys called the Mad Bombers that were so good at small squad tactics and head-games they broke corporations and alliances. They were a pita to fight but also fun to fight. If you want a real-world example, see Afghanistan: The Graveyard of Empires. They were invaded by the USSR at its peak in the 1980s and US military at its peak early 2000s and look who is in charge of Afghanistan after all that. Never underestimate a smaller force more focused and dedicated or with nothing to lose lol.
@@BuzzCutPsycho Even with organization there is a level of diminishing returns where the chain of command becomes too cumbersome to be agile or too many strong personalities to not clash and cause other issues.
I would like to add: Regarding the issue with continuous shield regeneration, we should also think about heat management and energy management. A shield cannot live in a constant state of regeneration, it will end up cooking itself and the rest of the ship. Personally, I like the idea of adding weight to player's decisions, that is, how you set up your power triangle, how you set up the individual set ups of your systems, how you set up your ship build or load out. Preparation is half the battle after all.
I agree with 95% of your points in this video. I think ppl just hate change and are trying to apply how they’ve been flying to the new flight model and it isn’t working. So instead of adapting they just complain and say it’s broken. Is it perfect. Hell no. But I like it better and think it’s a lot more “realistic” being that 1 good pilot should not be able to beat 7 decent ones. If you are outnumbered that hard you should run or lose. Thats it.
Definitely true for some ppl, but not for all. Many of us like the new flight model but see new issues pop up and some that simply don't align with the philosophy we've been sold for SC. Hopefully it gets re-tuned bc as it stands its basically a p2w arcade game.
As a former FPS veteran back in the days of Quake, there was a huge rivalry between CS and Quake, so comparing the two is like apples to oranges. CS has the more realistic team oriented gameplay where quake was an individual skill based game where everyone was even with the same gear and equipment. There were no classes outside of specific mods. What made Quake Quake, was the fact it wasn't CS, likewise in reverse. Quake had mechanical movements and physics that elevated the player's skill level, while CS did not (Originally at the time Quake was in it's prime, it was added later to CS) and of course CS was more team oriented. Note: I'm talking about Half-Life multiplayer which came before CS and did not have bunny hopping. If you want to compare apples to apples in regards to bunny hops, you should compare Return to Castle Wolfenstein to CS, both games had class based team gameplay, and bunny hops. Bunny hops in both games was only used to gain tactical advantage of the battlefield, it wasn't used as part of the individual player skillset. Both games were E-Sports, both games had major tournaments, both games had intermediate and pro game play leagues. CS was the World of Warcraft of FPS games, and always have been with COD being a close second to that. So comparing community size is irrelevant. Its like comparing the number of blizzard wow accounts to any MMO ever released. One thing that was proven and learned between the Quake and CS communities was one simple fact: MOST CS'ers could not play quake no matter how hard they tried to learn, but Quake players could play CS as the only element of gameplay added was a better team orientation as opposed to Quake. That said I'm not saying I disagree with MM, I love it in fact. But this is a space combat simulator, and bunny hopping is almost literally not applicable in such game and shouldn't be there in the same way people like to say it should be. Bunny hopping and exploiting a gameplay design issue are two different things. Yes Bunny hopping was originally a bug, but it was a bug the ENTIRE community loved, so it became a feature of those games. It was traditional bug in Quake that became a feature in EVERY version of Quake ever released, and adopted by other game developers like Unreal Tournament series, Even Call of Duty series. The whole animosity between CS and Quake is the misconception CS started the industry, they in fact did not. They created a different aspect of the same industry, but Quake started the "online" FPS genre which all future games were based around. Yes, I know Doom was out before Quake, but it wasn't online gameplay, it was modem to modem or LAN based and NOT over the internet. The original release of Counter Strike started in 1999. By that time Quake had been out for 3 years before Counter Strike started.
My man, I was a QTF, TFC, and Tribes player myself. In the days of Half-Life mods, I much preferred DoD, Firearms, or Natural Selection, even Frontline Force. I lived it. CS, to me, was always a bore due to its round-based gameplay. While some may have enjoyed bunny hopping, there's a reason why it isn't in games anymore. The same goes for dolphin diving from Battlefield and power sliding from CoD. These elements may add "skill," but they're unintended consequences of engine mechanics being exploited. That was the entire reason for bringing it up. As Carmack said, just because people practice at it doesn't justify its existence. Want movement-based gameplay? Build it into the game and make it a feature with a keybind. Don't make it jank that people have to learn and exploit.
@@BuzzCutPsycho I played, Doom Duke, Quake 1-4, COD1, COD2, and RTCW before I moved to MMO's for 10 years, and 6 of those years professionally. I did play tribes as well it was fun and different. I also did play CS for 1 week, before I saw a speed bot and an aimbot in the same server, never touch the game again after that. As I said the fact is this: yes it was a bug, that later turned into a feature, and I've named off 3 other games that adopted it already. The point I was trying to make which I may not have explained clearly: Bunnyhopping was not an exploitation of a game bug because it became a feature. Those people are wrong to use it as a justification. It was never an unintended bug after the Quake community fought to get it left in as a feature which inspired development of other games adopting slide, and bunny hopping. And guess who started Slide mechanic? Quake CPMA mod which was released in 1999, and again other games followed suit to adopt the slide mechanic. Where as the glitch you are talking about within a space combat simulator is an entirely different animal. I agree it shouldn't be allowed in SC, I love MM as it is developing and agree with it. Hope that clarifies I was long-windedly agreeing with you along with some useless historical facts. Fun Fact: The phrase "pwn3d" did not start in Counter Strike either lol! They like to think it did, but it was ripped off by CS'ers because of RTCW, and its actual meaning meant, "Panzer owned" when you scored a 6 man kill shot. And, Yes, I'm old af, as I've been gaming online for 28 years now.
As one who's tired of all the MM bad/good talk, you bring solid evidence supporting your stance, seeing several people want to try more combative roles that haven't been the "fighter playstyle person" in this game due to the MM change is healthy not for just pvp but the game as a whole. This brings me to some questions I'm curious about and want to hear your take on. Do you see with MM changes Large ships becoming a potent threat in combat? For example, if fighter class ships are engaged but then a bigger ship with manned turrets comes in in favor of one side will the opposite side become more hesitant to engage the ship/keep in the fight? In most videos, I see your clips while in a fighter, do you think the changes coming will affect what ships you fly? As CIG stated they want to make the ship combat more aligned with the naval style of combat, do you feel they are going more in that direction or leading away from it?
I too am very tired of the MM talk, but I felt like this video would be good enough to bring something new to think about, so I took a risk and made it. I am glad you enjoyed it. I did see the changes and have seen them in action, and as it stands now, the Connie and Hammerhead are terrifying to light fighters that cannot maneuver around their guns. They can do it to the Connie but not the Hammerhead. I think without the introduction of ships designed to counter larger ones into MM such as the Ares, or even the Gladiator, we will see LF players very cautious on their approach to the big ones, most likely ignoring the Hammerheads. I think this is a good thing. The changes will certainly affect the ships I fly and place me firmly in the heavy and above category. I am not a good LF pilot and never will be; my heart isn't in it. But anything heavier and I am sold on it. I plan to spend as much time in a Hammerhead as possible with a crew slinging death at anyone stupid enough to come close. And I am very excited for Hammerhead on Hammerhead fights.
I detest master modes for two reasons: One, feels gamey as fuck. Switch for "travel mode" and "fighting mode". Same reason I despised bunny hopping back then, and concussion jumping in Team Fortress Classic. Regardless of skill level it feels wrong and goofy. Two, I like speed. The way the new speed limits look, they make feel like getting out and walking.
I didn't like bhop or conc jumps in TFC either but I am perplexed at why you dislike those but also think MM feels similar? Perhaps I am not fully understanding. MM removes a lot of those similarities between gamey stuff between the two games. As for speed? They are just locked SCM. And those are still fast, just hard to feel fast in space without a landmark to tell you how fast you are going.
@@BuzzCutPsycho Back then I wanted to have a serious feel for the game and having soldiers jumping around at lightning speed broke the feel of the game. It looked idiotic. A "master switch" to change between game modes is one more onto the pile of CIG lazy solutions to "problems". Like using beams for everything. And I use problems in quotes because space games have been made since forever and now it turns out that there's a problem with speed that CIG of all companies is going to finally solve. And with a switch no less. Every day that passes SC moves farther and farther away from the "high fidelity" experience it was supposed to be, to the "minimum to get things done" we are getting 12 years later. More and more like a lowest common denominator game that didn't warrant the funds raised or the time spent. It raises questions too. If there are capacitors that can restore your shields instantly upon switching modes why can't I use them for other things? Why can I not keep them charged and effectively have twice the shields? Or move all the power away from the shields and keep regenerating them for a while with said capacitors? No one cares about those though. It's game, just arbitrary rules and numbers I guess. Our difference in opinion about flight is just as big as in combat on foot. I mean, saying Battlefield of all games is great and Rainbow Six Siege is garbage says a lot on that part.
I hate how fast soldiers move and it looks stupid. Strafe speed is the biggest issue right now and makes the game look stupid. I am in 100% agreement with you on that brother.
DCS guy has one point about 45's and formation flying. 🤣 45's are realistic in the sense that fast jets have to roll specific angles of bank to produce G's in a turn in level flight. 60* AoB, pull back on the stick, and you're in a 2G turn. Doesn't matter if it's a F-22, Boeing 777, or a hang glider. If the airframe has the power and structural integrity, it'll pull 2G's. 75.5* AoB = 4G turn. 80.4 = 6G turn. 83.6* = 9G turn. When flight control surfaces come into the game, it's going to introduce a lot of difficulty to SC if CIG does it correctly. Which ties in to formation flying in atmosphere. Pilots look at their flight lead's AoB to determine what stick input they need to match the rest of the formation in the turn. There is an F-16 called the CCV, which had independently controlled canards. Those canards allowed the CCV to yaw a bit like a SC ship so the jet could turn without rolling. Pilots said it was a nightmare to formation fly because they didn't have any of the reference ques they were used to. Formation flying may be a very high skill ceiling activity in SC. It depends on what CIG gives us. I've yet to wrap my head around how to do it in space.
No denying there is an element of "realism" to the argument. But, I will always argue (in game design) for breaking away from the self imposed shackles of realism in favor of better gameplay and balance.
The concept is correct, but it’s not angle of bank that changes g’s. A bank turn (no pitch change) at any level of bank will maintain more or less 1g, but your vector will fall to the ground (in atmosphere). To maintain a level turn you have to increase thrust or angle of attack to negate the force pulling you towards the ground. So for formation flying if you are maintaining the same constant speed, and maintaining level flight, a bank angle between two planes will produce the same turn. They aren’t really paying attention to g-load to maintain formation (they’re looking at wings), but the planes will produce the same g-load, airframe independent. Where you do pay attention to g-load is in measuring turns; I.e. for certain maneuvers you are going at a set speed, you know if you match your g-load to 1% of your speed you can expect a consistent turning radius, which is helpful for placing you a certain distance from poi (an airstrip, for example), and this is independent of formation flying. Having a consistent, predictable g-load physics is important for predictable flight. There should be no speed limit, just g-limits. It’s the changes in vectors and thrust that cause g’s… not speed.
@@BuzzCutPsycho I touched on it in my other reply, but since there is no air-resistance in space, speed should increase with how long your thrusters are on and how powerful they are, there should be no 'speed limit'. The only limits should exist in real world consequences of g's (consciousness and airframe stability), and those are affected by thrust and vector changes coupled with speed. i.e. if you choose to try and initiate a sharp turn at 1000kh, you're going to pass out if you don't manage it properly, or your airframe will collapse, etc. Speed limits in space remove the nuance of space flight, and turn it into atmosphere flight. Atmospheric flight is fun, but star citizen has both, it shouldn't try and make them feel the same, and at the very least, the speed should be greater than what current age atmosphere based jets can fly. Pushing back on the “gameplay” argument: There are plenty of space games that hold no meaningful relationship to real world physics. People maining flight dynamic objectives in star citizen are doing so because it’s the closest there is for navigating the pros and cons of realistic flight in space and atmosphere. That *is* the fun. If it ruins someone else’s gameplay to have the flight physics more realistic, well, then it’s just a matter of determining what type of player you want to please. If you lose the realism, you lose a lot of the space flight sim crowd, in favor of allowing people who don’t have as much interest in flight but want to clink around in a ship in space, and vice versa. Neither play style is ‘better’ than the other, but let’s not pretend a non-realistic flight model is making it ‘more fun,’ it’s just making it more fun for a specific style of play at the expense of another.
People who worry about numbers and skills ceiling will be shocked when we get proper role diversity and customisation. MM should result in industrial ships no longer being sitting ducks. Role diversity becomes essential to be effective at gaining control of opponents.
Exploit / bugs like trichording aren't always bad by default. Bullet jumping in Warframe was fleshed out and added as an actual feature after the community discovered it and some 'sweatlords' were utilizing it.
I fully understand the frustrations of the pvp gods. But I belong to the ones frustrated by not having a chance against these gods. When I was younger I was very fond of high speed gameplay, but as I get older (the main audience of the game anyway) I prefer strategy, and good team play over just being a single pro that carries whoever they play with. So all in favour myself. Hope they will still allow a small window for skill to indeed overpower if the numbers are equal.
I remember this one fight on Mech Warrior Online. Now for those not in the known MWO is based off the Table Top Battle Tech Game & Mech Warrior Franchise that spun off said table top game. The whole function of Mechwarrior/Battle Tech is combined Arms and while Combined Arms is not focused in MWO (often because budget but Living Legends a free mod based off the Crysis does combined arms). However the point stands. Its a Company vs Company fight so its 12 v 12 (where each unit is broken up into lances of 4 mechs). In most cases The fights often de-volve into Gokarting where one team shifts into the other team. However in some rare instances you get actual battlefield tactics where terrain, leveraging of arms and focus fire make great fights. So in this battle one person on com's goes "Whose going to command" since no one wanted the job I took it, studying the map I figured the that due to the nature of most fights Gokarting was going to be tactic the other team employed by taking higher terrain while we take lower terrain putting us in a disadvantage. Instead I issue orders to a Light Lance (mechs with low armor but high mobility) to stall with hit and run tactics. Asked if they had any air or artillery strikes to use it so it keeps the other team off balance. The other mechs in the unit were a mixture of medium, heavy and assault mechs. Unable to maintain higher speed I made the decision the best option is to head to a ridge and capture the choke point while having the Medium mechs and faster heavies screen the assaults as to not allow their lights to break into the formation. Now an often tactic of light mechs is to force heavier mechs to squirrel. As the name goes a dog chases a squirrel and often gets into bigger trouble. Their side had a light or two plus a heavy push into our rear. Again ordered to not break formation and push the screen. Focus fire on any lights that get close but ignore the others because the goal was to crack the formation. Eventually the bulk of our forces made it to the choke and the lights bought enough time even scoring a kill on a heavy mech that chased (poor bastard, those lights were on a 70 mech like a fat man at a buffet). Their ineffective tactics made them lost 2 lights and a heavy support mech. With a deficit of a whole lance down and our side only suffering a few losses (those lights gave their all)... We forced their group to smash into our battle line. Each call was every Assault mech that pushed was pelted by Long Range missiles, assault mechs shared their armor shielding each other while dishing out their own. Mediums and Heavies made sure none of their mediums could push or break. At each push I had the assaults pull black, and as soon as they got up the hill they were met by Gauss and Autocannon. Slowly one by one every mech they had was torn by LRM, Laser and Autocannon. Our bend dont break to hold that pass won, leveraging what we had, focusing down their big armor to mean nothing at the same time conserving ours. Fights like that are few and far between because everyone believes themselves to be One Man Armies and I personally blame Call of Duty for instilling that kind of thought into the average gamer mind. A good on field commander is a force multiplier, not a hot shot who will often cause the team to fail.
Good story. I used to play MWO myself, left after the ghost heat oddities and strange handling of clan mechs. But, ignoring all that. Your story sums up the potential of a group, even a random one working together against another even against the odds. CoD may be to blame for the one man army nonsense but that is too easy a game to blame. I think it is entirely generational and a sign of where the industry has gone. MMO games now are even solo player oriented with the game constantly having NPCs tell you how amazing and awesome you are. I hate that stuff. I prefer games where you're just a loser going about your business trying to make it in a violent, cold world that doesn't care about you. Maybe I am weird! Unrelated - MWO is apparently working on a sequel according to No Guts No Galaxy.
@@BuzzCutPsycho I would argue that E-sports & METAslaving more or less caused a chain reaction to where we are right now. Addressing the MMO aspect, I think there's two giants that actually show the problem with current landscape. WoW and FFXIV, both have their positives and negatives. WoW's GM team after Wrath pretty much dropped the ball when it came to policing people doing the 'kick tank' when people would just screw up pressing a button. On the same hand FFXIV GM team does a good job policing a bit too much but coddles players by allowing the skill bar to be buried. This in turn robbed players of interpersonal skills and group play because why get better when the dungeon content is easy and most 8 man story fights can be beat with 6 players. CoD is just an easier punching bag because of how popular Modern Warfare 2 sort of promoted the one man army persona and e-sports. Machima posted a lot of gameplay from good players just thrashing lobbies getting 30 kill nukes. Then the arrival of e-sports teams (aka omg im sending my tape to FaZe) did push this Solo God player mentality. Also current MWO is based off Cryengine and Mechwarrior 5 is using UE5...so it makes sense of a remake using UE5. Since modders have been using MWO frames and importing them into MW5 via mods. I also want to add this on the edit. I do believe a strong GM team will go a very long way...as well equal punishment. A care bear that serially flags players for griefing needs to be punished equally as the griefer.
E-sports are totally a part of it. Another is how the modern internet has lead people to think less for themselves and rely on more "guides" which also plays into the meta aspect you mentioned. WoW/FF14 are 100% to blame for the current state of MMO games. They are now what define what people think of a modern MMO as and for me that just isn't it. Instancing, little world interaction, no player interaction required. The GM part is interesting. Last MMORPG I played with GMs in it that spoke to me was FF14. Never had that in WoW much post WoTLK. But yeah FF14 is way too moderated, I am sure modern WoW is now too. In general I think MMOs are dead until they get away from the WoW model. It is why I go so hard on balance, design, accessibility and player action/accountability in Star Citizen. I want it to succeed and be the next big MMO. @@grygaming5519
@@BuzzCutPsycho I would say WoW and XIV are the symptoms. Its safe to say that the need for content is what depleted WoW to a major extent. FFXIV just finished its 10 year arc and starting a brand new story with Dawn Trail (depending how it goes is up in the air). However I think this is the primary reason why MMO's are on life support. People go through content too fast and demand more. Not like back in the late 2000s where the exploration and grind was the content. (also for XIV...zones and instances = promising an MMO to be on a console). Balance wise oddly the FF community is saying the game is far too balanced because every Tank/heal/DPS plays as a copy of each other with very little nuance. Except that's...community inflected. WoW is arguing the opposite, too much variation leading to inability to balance. It seems both games have a hard time finding the middle. GM moderation is what's going to make or break Star Citizen. I actually believe fully that the care bear and the griefer should be punished equally. False Reporting players should carry the same bannable weight as someone disrupting gameplay/targeted harassment. The reason I say that is because if people cry wolf far too much, then those who need to be punished get overlooked.
You nailed my gripe with FF14. A tank was just a tank. I played a warrior, tried Paladin, Gunblade, and the Dark Knight and they all just felt the same. Stuck with warrior since he was the least edgy of them all. I am shocked you are such a big FF14 fan, I only played for Crystaline Conflict, got Crystal and never played again. I think in the last expansion I made it to the moon, rode a golden dog and never played again. I just need something more from a game than what FF14 gives me. I do love the warm look and feel it gives me though. Very wholesome in some ways. Weird I know.@@grygaming5519
HOLD THE F**K UP! WAIT WAIT WAIT! I know this is a long shot, but when I see "BuzzCutPsycho" and "The Enclave" I think of one thing..... PLANETSIDE (the original) am I thinking of a different BuzzCutPsycho & Enclave? Or is that you!? Played Terran Republic?
unearned condescension and just bad takes, and backing it up with a dev who said "i am bad at fps so i added a crosshair". i'm not in either camp, old and coming ship combat is just overall bad.
also i'm a player, not marketing nerd. i do not care about player count and how "accessible" a game is. if eurotruck simulator started adding something like an oppressor mk2 from GTA Online to make more sales because people love to clown around and it got more players, making it "accessible" by allowing it to be controlled with rolling your head over the keyboard repeatedly and getting a win screen somehow, that doesn't make the original playerbase who enjoyed actual trucking in their game "nerds", and saying that makes you a pretty sad shill who puts money over what a game originally set out to be. so really not surprised you are in good standing with CIG.
I agree with a lot of what you said except for one point. At the 10:30 mark you said the notion of a solo Ace Pilot being a threat to a squadron was a preposterous one. American Ace Maj. James Howard did it in January 1944 while in a P-51 Mustang. The lone escort of a squadron of bombers, Howard faced off against about 30 enemy aircraft. Howard alone downed at least 6 enemy aircraft (likely more but not confirmed). Even after running out of ammunition, Howard continued to "bluff" the enemies, using his skills as an Ace and the superior maneuverability of his aircraft. He successfully escorted the bombers and suffered only a single bullet hit to the wing of his Mustang. He was awarded the Medal of Honor for that flight alone. It's not preposterous, it's heroic, and it happens.
Interesting take. While I understand real-life examples are not always ideal, for a game that is widely touted as a WWII dogfighter in space, it is a pertinent example of what a skilled pilot in a superior craft can do, even against incredible odds. That is a lesson that is easily transferrable from IRL to a game like SC. @@BuzzCutPsycho
@@GUNJOEXD I'm guessing you mean it was one man out of how many millions...? True, but if that had happened more than once during an IRL war (a lone fighter protecting a squadron), we would've had a serious problem. Of course that only happened once, but what was much more common, especially later on in the war as the skill gap increased between the pilots and the aircraft got better, faster and more maneuverable was having Ace pilots routinely take on 2-3 and even 4 enemy aircraft and win. American Triple-Ace Bud Anderson emerged victorious from many 3 v 1 battles. Even a 6 v 2 with him and his wingman. So in reality, better skilled pilots in better aircraft would routinely down their inexperienced counterparts that were in slower and less maneuverable aircraft. Why can you not have 5-10 "Aces" in a server of 100? I don't think that would be unreasonable at all.
Ive spent alot of time thinking of how the game will stay balanced, and having constantly regenning shields would def be a great way to help that@@BuzzCutPsycho
Thanks man. I've been in and out of the industry as both a player and consultant for 20+ years now. I've picked up a lot of things in those two decades that people have either forgot or never knew. I don’t pretend to be an authority on these things but I genuinely feel that I speak from a position of knowledge and experience. Not every has to agree with me and I don't expect it but I do appreciate people at least giving me a chance. Thank you again.
With the shields I think a good way to compare it is to real world or DCS )A flight sim), When flying in dcs and you get into a dogfight you don't have the liberty to wait for a shield, You are trapped into a fight and you make a mistake you are dead, you can disengage from fights but at a very hefty risk of being shot down. MM reminds of this, where if there are more people the harder it is a for a skilled pilot to survive.
@@BuzzCutPsycho Its the best thing possible, DCS dogfighting is intense, now where to run, you against another pilot. coolest shit ever as it really shows who is the better pilot.
Reminds me of GunZ and K-style. Community would throw tantrums because you shot them with a gun instead of spending hours learning how to exploit a system.
Surprisingly, you highlighted the exact issue with pirates that the community has. The pvp croud says bring an escort. But they are expected to do so with only a roughly 2% chance of encounter. Yet you neec to pay that escort as much as 50% of profits. Even if you have the escort, pirates rarely fly alone. Usualy, when you encounter them its a full squad of battle trained pilots fully kitted out. Against, the one or two escorts you brought. As to master moded I only have ywo aspects I really dislike. 1) Input limiting, where when flying with full thrust forward you can't use maneuvering without removing thrust from the forward direction. Its an unintuitive behavior, which has caused me to hit a few objects. Though I will agree that this behavior does make sense for ships with thrust diverting from main to thrusters. However, it doesn't make any sense in ships like the cutless. And 2) slowing down from boost even in space while decoupled. I'm trying to figure out where the force to being exerted to slow the object is coming from. It just doesn't feel right or intuitive to me. Other than that I have no issues with master modes. Just will take a bit of retraining. I think the slowing down from boost is the one bothering me the most. It just doesn't feel like a 'space' game with that behavior.
"Bring an Escort" is a meme at this point honestly. It means nothing, and is just used as a hand waving insult. And a common complaint is losing momentum out of nav. I think that is purely done for gameplay reasons.
Again, I completely agree with you. The game is headed in the right direction. Not only will the fights be cinematic and eye pleasing, new players/ casual players will be able to participate in large scale battles. There are several people I cannot win in a 1v1 setting. This means I have to put in the time to get better. But in a group setting we can win. I am glad there is still is a skill ceiling with an easier learning curve (easy to play hard to master). I did not like the Mount Everest learning curve with the Ace pilot being able to 1v10 (or more) and win as there was before. A skilled MMA fighter could take on 2-3 low average skilled fighters and win, but add a 4th and he most likely will lose. Even 3 is extremely difficult to fight solo.
The team setting is the mot important to me and I am glad you acknowledged it. How you play with the group is going to be crucial here. I enjoy the "Mount Everest" learning curve example quite a bit actually. There is no gradual slope for the current system, you either get it or you don't. I think you will see more "ace" pilots once people figure out MM and decide it is something they want to pursue. Great comment.
Good luck getting the pvp dogfighter community to get behind MM. Most want Call of Duty in space, where light fighters (and now, the Hornet) rule all because "it allows for skill expression" and screw everything else. Half of them don't want RPS/role counters and the other half want to continue to be able to solo a Hammerhead if they're persistent enough(and the HH crew is hardheaded/stupid enough).
I was going to comment here to merely increase the metrics on what I consider a good video, however, I notice that there are already over 100 comments so now I'm commenting on that.
Thank you for this video. I've seen so many "pro PvP" players upset about this change. They should be celebrating that it will make PvP more accessible to other players. I'm not a great fighter pilot but I've enjoyed the matches I've had in Master Mode AC. I've gotten some kills but still lost most. It will still take time to get really good so the skill ceiling is still high, but people will have a chance to fight and win now.
Thank you for commenting on this video. :) The idea that MM is going to marginalize good players is totally bogus. They're still going to be good. But your experience is what is important to focus on because you kept playing. You felt like you has a chance and because you had a chance you stayed engaged. That is what we are going for here.
Im curious because for this tricording thing has me thinking will it be possible to play in the MM with the speed limiter on because I absolutely hate combat with it off but as a mouse and keyboard player you absolutely cannot dodge shots from a Hotas player if you are using M&KB. Because apparently the speed limiter is always off with Hotas and gives them full access to all thrusters but as a M&KB player you have to turn the speed limiter off in order to have that as well. Which I think is insane and unfair but just never really spoken of not up until recently.
MKB has always been at a disadvantage no matter what the fighter nerds tell you. I don't know if MM will make it that much different but it will help a bit. So long as auto-aim is in the game MKB will struggle since aim isn't as important as maneuvers. Whether or not you prefer that is personal preference.
@@BuzzCutPsycho I absolutely agree I have been having these arguments since 3.4 because they made some flight change then that basically is the current flight system now where everything was balanced in 2.6.3. It took me a week to learn how to PVP compared to this current one fighting to chase the pip and hit reg lol.
There are good mouse and key pilots, my friend Yosilas will give most a run for their money. If you dislike having to set a speed limiter, MM is in part technically a speed limiter by design. also takes away the control/fancy flying you see in videos from stick or good mouse/key pilots@@01SHADOW
Your constant commentary puts into words the reasons for why I leave most orgs. These people don't know which end of a phone charger not to stick up their own ass.
I so fervently agree with your point of continuous regeneration! For everything! Why does boost not regenerate for a bit after using it or even while using it? Same for weapons and shields. It's an artificial mechanic that doesn't make sense and leads directly to the light or even snub fighter meta we have now. That's also my gripe with master modes. It's entirely random and artificial that you would not have any shields if you travel too fast. That's filling one hole with another one
IMO, the Antares, considering its current singular task for the co-pilot; should still be converted into a single-seat fighter (i.e. EMP control also being available to the pilot).
I would just have them give the Antares another task, or a smaller, distortion only turret. I do like a powerful EMP on a 2 seat craft. So long as it is powerful enough. But that is just my opinion. The role now isn't too terribly exciting.
considering the f8 outperforms in all metrics the base Scorp which has 2x the weapon loadout, of the Antares both variants could be ran solo and not be OP, an f8 does 90% of the dps with 2x the shields and isn't made of glass or have the fragile wing + horrible convergence issues. The Antares needs a second shield and more powerful emp to be able to get in and attempt tactics like in the video. I like strategy but as death of a spaceman comes along, likely sacrificing that poor team of 2 on a kamikaze run will need to be more beneficial to the team.
People will just multi-box this kind of ships anyway, if a task in a seat is so easy and boring that it can be done by a four year old than most players will not bother to man such a seat with a real person. Though my little daughter is happy with that Antares or controlling the claw in the reclaimer for daddy. ;-)
Are they really an ace pilot if they think they can wade into a 5 v 1 fight and win? Because that kind of tells me they can't assess a fight which is a bit of a key skill for an ace.
@@BuzzCutPsycho I don't think my point came across. It was more they're probably not as good as they think they are if they get into a fight like that.
@@gyratingwolpertiger6851 Ooh ok. Yes you are correct. Sorry I misunderstood you there. I was also mentioning my low skill vulture kills in warthunder air rb. ;)
People trying to balance around 1 to 1 has always confused me. Things scale very different and none of the games you mentioned are 1v1 centric yet people focused on it. Very weird.
Can anyone tell me where I can find pvp 1v1s as are seen in this video in the background footage? I'd this some arena commander mode? Especially if I can do it multi crew
@@theuselessteammate2097 there is an etiquette. But basically you find them in free flight. Get their attention and flare. If they wanna fight they flare back. You pass one another and go fight.
ok but the flight system in master modes feels like the flight system in battlefield games. ships literally fly at biplane speeds. Cool if you want to fly at casual 90s arcade game speeds. personally it's not the gameplay I helped kickstart. and I'm not part of the pvp community.
You may not be a part of the PvP community but you're still an idiot. Boosted 500 m/s is over 1,000 MPH. What do you think standard SCM speed is and is it faster or slower than "literally biplane speeds" ?
@@BuzzCutPsycho maybe I did misunderstand something about the speeds. my bad guess I learned something. I will however no longer watch any of your content because of your complete lack of respect.
Hah thanks a lot. Never been compared to that and I appreciate it. I always say I don't expect 100% agreement but I do like when people enjoy the videos.
That would certainly separate the two. Where do you think the "big gun" begins in terms of size? I've already felt 5 and above was the big ship guns with the big range. With 4 being the biggest fighter gun
@@BuzzCutPsycho That's something I'd stick to personally as outside of certain ships it works. It does place the Vanguards in an awkward spot but I'm sure something could be figured out. The Connie as an example to me falls into being a anti fighter/medium craft gunship role so maybe a ship specific exception could be made based on role? I'll admit personally I've always felt the Connie's turrets too short ranged.
Connie is actually pretty good on EPTU now. It's turrets aren't too impressive but they don't have to be. The frontloaded damage on the ship is impressive with size 5s.
Tricording is absolutely intuitive, unless you think two or three people pushing a cart to accelerate it faster is an exploit. It's basic elementary school physics that a little kid can understand. Two people don't have to push a cart in exactly the same direction for it to accelerate faster. How is this an exploit when it's something you see all the time in real life?
Yeah, it's so intuitive that it got removed, and most people hate it. It's also intuitive that you get more thrust and acceleration with three small engines than with the two larger ones in the rear. Right?
I get what you’re saying, but there’s also many aspects of the game that remove real life intuition and draw you to rely on previous gaming experience intuition. A few examples being: It’s a game and as such people naturally think to past game experience first before many real life similarities, We also do not often experience the 6 degrees of freedom outside of swimming in a pool or something, things like shooting a laser at a rock to crack it into smaller chunks is not something many people anywhere get to experience. Yes, wildly different detail than flight, but it s piece of the puzzle that draws you away from it. Again, i get what you’re saying but the point overall is not to make only PVPer lives easier but all players as an averaged whole. Trichording makes sense to those who put in many hours and take the time to think about how x input on throttle affects y, but it doesn’t really make sense to the vast majority. Should that mean the mechanic as a whole is removed? No, and it wasn’t. The part that was removed was the fact that trichording pushed you above certain limits hence the exploit argument. It’s still a valid mechanic iirc but is not longer an outright better way to fly all the time
To me these 6DOF games always played like no-clip Quake with acceleration. People try to make seem like the game is super nuanced but that is always how I have seen it. Besides I believe they removed it entirely. Your swimming pool analogy is pretty spot on. @@origin-d.g.9199
@@BuzzCutPsycho ahh, I may have misread whatever spectrum post had it a few months ago I think it was? I can’t remember now but either way I think the issue many folks have is less about mechanics being removed and more about just the frustration of having to learn/relearn something they previously were highly skilled at. I completely understand that, but I will still stand on the side of MM being a smart change. PVP folk will get to sink their teeth in as more systems come online like armor, shielding changes, ballistic ammo types, actual differences in laser weapons, and so on. All the small details that make up the whole still have a long way to go and MM was in reality just one of those small changes. It’s just that when isolated feels like a massive one. Well done on the video. I think you had a fairly balanced take with some good thoughts and whether or not you are right/wrong, it induces debate. @nozumuyume I’d like to hear more from your side. Give us some context to your thoughts here because I personally don’t fully understand the downside to the change so I’d love to hear what it takes away from. Cheers
Thanks man. I am bad at the videos IMO but I am good at the talking I think. I get people being upset about re-learning, but I go into SC fully expecting to relearn everything. I had to relearn FPS just recently and just accepted it. I am not marginalizing their skill or success but if relearing something means the game is better overall I am totally for it.@@origin-d.g.9199
I think its stupid to see tricording as an exploit. Using 3 directions to counter and control your movment is litterally a function of operating in a 3D environment with 6°s of movement! All they needed was slower speeds. Not get rid of the ability to fly your space ship like an actual space ship!
I agree with quantom here as if you give a ship 3 outputs of thrust you will in fact move on a diagonal vector the same as when a car drifts there are 2 outputs of thrust the rear tyres pushing forward and the friction of the front/steer tyres pushing left or right wich add up to the car moving in a diaginal vector. The part that Is almost an exploit is the 40% gian in thrust as the main engine is still outputting full thrust when tricording your only adding manoeuvring boosters which should only give you maby a 10% increase of thrust
This is a 3DOF vs 6DOF argument. I can wrap my head around both, I don't think tri-cording is hard to do or understand. The gamers are used to 3DOF which is why there's a learning curve here. Your position essentially dumbs down 6DOF with invisible walls. Star citizen has too many invisible walls fisting players to behave a certain way, which isn't a good thing at all. I think they should remove these walls in space, because they don't exist. WTF is a speed limit in a vacuum anyways? And put these walls in atmo, where they belong, in a flight physics model of 3DOF, where there's air, a real thing. This won't happen I think, its just what I'd like to see, the problem being the actual design of the ships has nothing to do with practicality or function, style is overwhelming function. Your idea about shields is something I'd like to see.
I just want an accessible game. The old system wasn't it. This is getting there and it still has enough depth that noobs have no idea what is going on. I don't tend to go with realism too much in games I admit. I am a big believer in easy to learn difficult to master. That is truly what I want out of SC personally.
Once the big gameplay change heebie-jeebies wears off youll stop hear all these nonsense concerns and doubts. People just gotta wait until we have more of MM to start being "concerned" about gameplay we havent even been able to see in live yet. I call it SC madness, its the fictitious fantasy in your head i myself have been afflicted by due to the severe lack of all this content CR has promised for so long, the wait is maddening 😂
Having huge numbers in a game like Star Citizen is actually quite worthless unless that large group is online all the time and plays together often enough to build up a skill at working together. Having a small group that's well coordinated is trivial. Having a huge group of 50+ or MORE is insanely difficult. That's why Star Citizen isn't seeing large 40+ man groups taking over a server, it takes coordination, people management, and more than that, pilot skill to not accidentally AWOX your buddies. That's why a game like EVE Online has such gigantic groups...because skill is trivialized by that game. All you have to do not to die is to have your broadcast window open, and to broadcast for reps from your 20+ logis in the fleet of 259 people, and if you're fit right, you will not die unless there's so much alpha on the other side of the field that you just instapop. In that game, numbers will always beat skill. In SC, you cannot, CAN NOT coordinate that many people to hit the SAME TARGET at the exact same instant. Its not possible. The game itself prevents that. Master Modes counters that kind of blob warfare even harder.
Also SC lacks tools such as waypoints and such. I'd like to see more options given to commanders to better organize. Waypoints, player sorting, color coding, etc. Would be nice.
As an EvE FC it's a PITA just to get 1000+ people to even do the bare minimum of shutting up on comms and clicking a name in a list and then the kill-it button sometimes lol. Manual pilot skill dogfights would be impossible in SC in eve scales because we have collision damage and friendly fire unlike in eve mostly. There is also no GPU that could render that many SC ships in a fight with playable fps.
@@BuzzCutPsycho Never played Ps2 but I would guess for SC 20-40 vs 20-40 is going to be a sweet spot for organization if they can get the FPS of servers and clients up to AAA spec.
Wtf why cry all? I mean not you but the guys on spectrum, pve and pvp Community. For PvP, they have with master modes more people who are interesst. For PvE we didnt have anymore the 1vs20 thing, where the one guy kill all the other. Win win for all, and it make fun
Anybody who is whining about the "numbers game" With MM is delusional, and has probably never been in a real fight. Life isn't an action movie. You can't go storming up on 5 opponents who have as much firepower as you and beat them all with your skills. Even a skilled martial artist agaisnt 3-4 more average opponents is going to be on the losing end more often than not. So no. A single fighter against 3-4 ships should not be able to win on skill alone. I would even submit that a single light fighter should be at a disadvantage agaisnt a heavy fighter.
master modes ruins the game. Cig implements it because it can't fix the desync problems at high speeds, so it makes everything slow and front to front. It sucks. 900 years in the future and we fly like a 1945 p40.
dman your explaination is heavy ( without picture to explain his difficult to understand ) ... First I ll be happy to see the scorpius able to shoot with his turret ( was not the case for me in last session ) ... and his special feature working ( wasn't working too ). I hope also a day they remove this auto aim assist from turret and pilot. Was the first trouble of Hammer Head, the turret can't shoot on a gladius becauqe this shitty auto aim don't shoot where you are aiming. this system shoot all time where the small ship was and never on front of them = easy to approach an Hammer Head with small ship because the turret doens't work. And finally the network code is so crap to do PvP ... it's a real joke to work on this way with MM. Kill the game for 90% of people for something doesn't work realy ... I'm a FPS gamer and StarCitizen is far far away to have a good reactivity, Specialy in FPS. just put two computer and analyse the game when you are moving the delay for the other guy to see it is huge. But I think we go to direction to a stupid arcade game ... what a joke. I still believe another company will do it one day ... the Real Space Sim and not a joke like we got today.
Dominating others in an organized group in an MMO can be highly rewarding. The Enclave stands out as the top organization thanks to Buzzcutpsycho's leadership skills, talent, and supportive community. With the implementation of Master Modes, the playing field will be evened out, but many people still prefer an unfair fight. I'm excited about the new combat style that Star Citizen will introduce with Master Modes.
i concur...lets see it, play it .and thusly test it. why so many crying before it is fully implemented? i get giving them feedback, but some of the sweat lords are getting a bit too worked up IMO.
They learned some unofficial content once and now it's changing, I remember palying games where the official meta changed every month, I don't think it's a big deal, CIG said it was all going to change, people was delusional and called me an ignorant so they can keep staying locked up in their delusions, now the tunnel of their vision is collapsing, I'm still here I told everyone it was not worthy to get into it like crazy hoes, now here they are, hundred or thousands of hours wasted for nothing at all, I understand but they was warned both by CIG and the community.@@BuzzCutPsycho
There is nothing wrong with changing things up and I think it is overall good for the game. People will learn and adapt and probably enjoy it more in the long run.
It's actualy bad, some key devs are leaving the project, they added an inside idris mission, betraying another promise for a few $ a few visibility, the project is being pathetic, it's like a street hooker too old desesperatly trying to grab 10 bucks.@@BuzzCutPsycho
“Transient minority of turbo nerds“. Quote of the day I completely agree that tri chording is an exploit, and moreover, it goes against physics, as the ships have always had equal thrust in all axes. Even before Master Modes was introduced they discussed changing how ship thrust works.
All valid points, the formation fighting and coordination has always stuck out in my mind since the vision is for an older fighter sim set in space. From what I have seen, most of the PVP whiners are a super minority, they're only able to have interactions with people by being McDojos for new players. Like you said, good pilots won't have an issue transitioning to MM, the whiners are whining about something else, and I think its the McDojo atmosphere they have built.
@@0BLACKESTFUN0 i would say the poor foundation was set by John Smedley and SOE long before he was involved. He just took their bad ideas and amplified them. I was in a Mandalore Gaming video about PS2 where I said my part.
@@BuzzCutPsycho Was always hyped after the end of ps1 to see it again but ye they rushed it and tried to compete with battlefield it seems. I still think Matt Higby was the only one trying to do a great job with the shift of gameplay but also Jhon had in the beginning very good ideas wich they never ralized , like being able as squad leader buff your teammates etc. (squad gameplay in general).
@@0BLACKESTFUN0 I was told by former devs that John Smedley hated PlanetSide 1 and viewed it as a failure to be ignored. All good ideas it had were disregarded. They started to back peddle on it much later and introduced systems like lattice but it was too late. PS2 existed because of Smedley and died because of Smedley.
I am already tired of playing it…. So we do NOT need another EVE ONLINE that you have these massive groups of “organized” that you get on to play the game but you just follow orders and jump around for over an hour just trying to out flank other groups just because you have a “leader” telling the mass amount of trigger monkeys at your disposal, what to do. If that is what YOU and YOUR group want to do that is fine, but you could do that in 3.22 if you wanted, and it takes more skills. Not everyone wants Arcade Citizen
"For years the PVP community has been saying "Bring an escort" to the PVE community ... I am now telling the PVP community to "Bring friends."
I think thats an excellent point. The first rule of a gunfight is to bring a gun, but the second rule of a gunfight is to bring friends with guns. The third rule of a gunfight is to have your friends bring their friends. It is my belief that master modes will still allow skilled pilots to punch above their weight (I hate that term considering how much CIGs marketing team enjoys slathering it on everything.) but at the end of the day, quantity is a quality of its own.
" think thats an excellent point. The first rule of a gunfight is to bring a gun, but the second rule of a gunfight is to bring friends with guns. The third rule of a gunfight is to have your friends bring their friends."
What an amazing reply. Thank you. Have a pin.
Thats part of the problem tho. The vast majority of players play solo, and its hard enough as it is. I actually like the direction of MM, but in practice its a big middle finger to most of SC players honestly.
I am sure a lot of them play solo because there is no reason not to play solo. But there are other factors like how annoying it is to do anything as a group.
Also the fact that most people just want to play most MMOs solo... and they do@@BuzzCutPsycho
Not sure which side you are on of this one lol, yes "they play solo because there is no reason not to"....I agree people do things they like or enjoy doing unless forced to do that which they don't. The alternative, being forced to group play which will hurt the casual player who play the game to relax or zone out & not have to think after a stresful day to just salvage/mine or haul alone due to your other comment on group play annoyances plus setup or time to organize.@@BuzzCutPsycho
I think the constantly regenerating shields should be dependant on shield size, smaller shields should have less or no constant regen, only relying on disengaged recharge. This way bigger ships have a more impactful place on the battlefield, and requires a more dedicated response
Agreed. Bigger ones would obviously be way better and more effective.
8:50 - I would suggest to add a damage buffer threshold before stopping the regen.
So that if taking a few hit, it won't stop the shield regeneration unless a minimum amount of damage is done.
That's also a valid solution. A threshold of damage that needs to be hit to disable recharge for awhile? Pretty good suggestion!
8:44 As always, mostly agree with your takes, but I have a small modification to suggest here.
Instead of constantly recharging, what about *recharging until gate.*
Meaning if you do 1% damage, the shield will just keep recharging, endlessly. You have to *shock* the shield with, say, 10-20% damage before it goes into "cooldown."
The result would preferably be that you can't just pick tiny shots from a distance and work a shield down, BUT you also don't suffer from a basic dps gate *until the shield is gone.* Everytime a game does that type of dps-requirement to get past an entire shield with no complexity to it (including for the defending player), it gets drier.
This also means specialized ships with big long range guns are capable of stunning a shield into is cool down, making it possible to work it down with strategy and placement, rather than just endless dps.
Totally valid and I would he fine with that too. I'm not at all married to constant regeneration as a feature and am perfectly happy with anything else that functionally accomplishes the same thing. Damage thresholds and gates are an excellent alternative when it comes to dealing with the chip damage.
Good stuff man. Still think it would give a bonus worth mentioning to full shield power on the triangle?
@@BuzzCutPsycho Oh that's a good point! Maybe that's the damage-requirement. Low power on the triangle gets you 5% gate. Maxed gets you 30?
That, or alter the recharge rate, perhaps. Agreed =]
See? You get it. I am not married to any of my ideas. I have always considered these videos public brainstorming. Perhaps I should mention that at some point huh?
Trichording is NOT only used to run and reset. It's also used for maneuvers during knife fighting. And frankly this is an aspect where MM is lackluster.
Trichording is also used for tighter turns in racing. And again, racing is lackluster in MM without trichording.
I have no issue with removing trichording itself. But he new FM needs to make up for it in a way or another.
I like Master Modes. But I find the blind bashing of 45 turn and trichording extremely shortsighted when there is nothing in Master Modes that gives us the depth that was taken away by removing these elements. These are NOT exploits.
Thee are not difficult to learn. And they could easily be taught by the game.
I believe they're making up for it with boost increasing Gs. According to all EPTU data which is a balanced solution.
Im sure it will be ok
"Transient minority of turbo nerds."😂😂
Great video btw!
Thanks 😅
Turbo nerds also got me😂
I will try and be more polite in the next video!@@andrijagrgic2357
Numbers DO matter when the game design severely reduces the ability to evade, escape or regen. Hopefully, with future ship customisation and future auto-aim reduction then this does happen with our game.
I think auto-aim is the biggest problem and cause of this. IMO.
Numbers always have, and always will in every single conflict in every single MMO. It’s always better to have two than one of equal products or resources. The guys that were complaining, we’re using such simple techniques that happened to be grossly over efficient and unrealistic.
Every game has to weigh numbers vs skill. You don’t want a bunch of noobs in PVP fitted Vultures so numerous, they can beat a well oiled, thoughtful and disciplined group of elite soldiers.
But you don’t want a single elite pilot, hopping in any light fighter and able to 3 v one consistently, and not even worry about it.
There is a happy, medium . Right now 10% of the population is screaming about this. Before 90% was screaming that it was broken for 10 years
@@The_0G_Chad your statement is true in games where customisation is limited. In games where ship choice and shio customisation exists then we get role specialists.
@@BuzzCutPsycho it’s incredibly hard when they have the unrealistic 700 m a second velocity’s and two pilots usually counter rotating at 1K plus range to hit anything without auto aim.
You wouldn’t need auto-aim if you had hit scan, good servers etc.
The only times I complain about auto aim is close range with laser repeaters. Which means they are the outlier that are being abused.
When’s the last time you honestly were worried about ballistic cannons in a turn fight?
Also, if you turn auto down too much, you’re simply gonna make the size of the ship more important than anything.
The real problem is repeaters having high velocity and incredibly low shot, deviation and much less negatives for missing the target and the fact they are normally on light very agile ships, and incredibly close ranges .
If you open this up to 5K repeaters, and anything that has high velocity definitely needs auto-aim nerfs, or better yet auto aim needs to diminish exponentially at ranges to where it’s engaged fully in turn fights and never while moving slowly at range,
It really has only recently got some attention. And I am glad it is. I am bias towards numbers but I really want organized numbers. It's a hard balance, a tough line to walk. I think EVE may be a good example of said balance?
In terms of shield regen, I would probably give players choice of high regen shields and high capacity shields.
The more aggressive / punching up you do, the higher shield cap you want.
The more defensive / punching down you do, the higher regen speed you want.
I honestly want loadout choices to matter.
The concept of these "Bulwark fighters with tough shields" would make sense to Tevarin for example, who never considered retreating acceptable in the first place.
Thats a great suggestion. It is actually a shame that all the shields right now are the same. Perhaps they will do something like that with a component pass and overhaul?
"turns out, alienating the vast majority of your player base results in a dead game"!!!!
Excellent video! Thank you!
Everything you have said is so important and spot on.
I am tired of the Vocal minority complaint about how they can't win fights they are out numbered in 5 to 1 any more
The vocal minority is the one always heard. I will be covering that in my next video. Glad you liked this one.
I did have a thought with regards to the weapon ranges. Fighting a hammerhead in mastermodes pirate swarm had me thinking about how the range and the spray is fundamentally a part of how that ship works is effectively the flying flak barge.
100%. I think at some point we are gonna get flak? But yes the area of denial spray is essentially what it is meant to do and has some insane range on eptu
@@BuzzCutPsycho That's the idea.
Gotcha.
Never saw the comments that Yogi made about a 5 vs 1 scenario. Really nice to see.
Great video as always!
Glad you enjoyed it! It was shown to me by another user. I do not use that Discord myself. But it was refreshing to see it.
@BuzzCutPsycho yeah definitely. I was always wondering how they were wanting to handle that in the future.
I think they are going to land firmly on the side of the team and group players. No matter how much the "ace" players whine.@@Hav0k
@@BuzzCutPsycho Good. I hope so too
so ready to jump into this new era. my old brain can't keep up with all the high speed trick flying dogfighting, i want to be able to use my tactics and not rely on an exploit of game mechanics
You'll be happy to know that on EPTU the big ships such as the Connie are very dangerous
@@BuzzCutPsycho this does put a smile on my face
Sounds like you want p2w tbh
Well I am a Legatus... ;)
Yeah that tracks 😂
Great video I will never understand the MM haters that LARP like being a good pilot wont somehow translate into MM. Great video as always.
Me neither
@@tibitzu365 there is something more to be said about the current flight model leading to pvp to be dead and populated by less than 1000 players whereas the majority of other experienced SC players. Not people "relatively new" to it express great disdain and avoid it. MM is coming for a reason and the current model is going away forever.
@@tibitzu365 it won't change much if at all in terms of speeds. They will never revert back to what we have on live. I would bed my account on that.
@tibitzu365 "I'm new" is where your comment should have ended.
I'm not new and Iv flown enough in the game to know I hate it. Why are people still playing games like LoL/Dota/DoD/CS/Quake/Halo/Ect? All those games have a rather small barriers of entry yet require time and skill to master. I want SC as approachable and easy to play as possible while also being difficult to master. Right now, to play the game, you have to rebind and memorize how many keys? You have to understand how many exploits and bugs? You have to spend how much time in AC? You have to buy what kind of stick/foot pedals/extra button pad/eye tracking. None of those things even mean you will be a good pilot btw. This game currently suffers from an identity crisis MM appears to help further make SC into an MMO rather than a Space Sim.
@tibitzu365 you don't even know what full MM implementation looks like "new" player. If things need tweaking after implementation, sure, I'm all for things that need tweaking being tweaked. The pip wiggle is another exploit being eliminated by MM and may it die and never return. You act like two game breaking exploits is not alot, F off with that. Smooth brain "new" air chavs can go take a long one way trip to the bottom of the ocean Titan 1 style.
The nice part is CiG is ignoring you, go practice your 45's in AC while you still can looser.
Bro, you're reminding me of my Last Oasis days. I was the lead tactician for my clan and the head officer for our artillery. You basically checked off a bunch of things I considered back then regarding combat economy, group dispersion/herding and AOE.
Hah is that a good thing I am reminding you of that? Sounds like it. I've been doing this sort of this since the 90s anyway. It is second nature at this point.
@BuzzCutPsycho good memories for sure! I really got into mmos and tactical strategy during the pandemic. I herded my enemies like sheep in that game lol.
@@eddiemarohl5789 which ones did ya play?
@@BuzzCutPsycho I first played worlds adrift but only solo. Then I moved into last oasis where I eventually learned tactics from a word of warcraft vet. I've wanted to start world of warcraft but since it's a subscriber style game I'm going to wait until I'm settled into my career before going fully into that.
I am bias against WoW so I avoid it. ;)
Logical and well delivered as usual. Thanks.
Thanks for watching! I was worried this might be too much with the master modes bloat but people seemed to like it.
I appreciate you pointing out mistakes in older games to highlight that they shouldn't be needlessly repeated. Bunny hopping is stupid and "45's" are stupid.
Thanks man. Not many people know about the history of bunny hopping and old game exploits.
I agree that 45s are stupid, but trichording is not. I like a lot of MM changes, but as it stands it really strips the current space combat of its rich character. Whats the point of having 6DF if you are just going to turn spaceflight into WWII dogfighting? I hope it gets a massive re-tuning as they implement MM into the PU.
Would you agree that the tricord favors certain setups? They did mention controllers and input parity being a goal.
@@CitizenScott"really strips current combat" I'd like to ask why you think jousting with another ship for 3-10min is engaging gameplay?
@@sorincaladera936 I dont think that. Never said that at all. I also don't have a problem with jousting, its a perfectly valid and common dogfighting tactic. Joustings not the problem, flybys are the problem, and thats a skill issue. I know how to fly so I don't have that problem. When someone else starts to do high speed flybys you just turn early, match their speed and force a merge... one that puts you directly behind them if youre good.
Still not convinced MM is going to get us where CR wants things to be. But slowing things down at least reduces the jank. The potential problem is actually illustrated in your video example. In the video the Antares blew into the formation at speed and was able to get to the proper location to deploy the EMP. At the lower speeds of MM that Antares is going to have a much harder time SLOOOOLY flying into the center of such a formation, taking many more hits (especially if those Cutties have turret gunners.) I can foresee MM turning multi ship combat into something more like 18th or 19th century naval warfare (line combat, only in 3 dimensions) as opposed to the "WWII" style that CR dreams about.
It wont get us to the WW2 in space vision CR wants but it will make the game better overall. As for the speeds? Yeah, for sure, with the slower speeds it'll just have to be more durable to make it. IMO.
And finally right now on the EPTU with Hammerheads they tend to stay at around 8k range slugging it out, rotating weak shields to spread damage while gunners work. So I guess it is a bit like 18th or 19th century but in space. Or maybe that is like WW2 battleships? :D I am not sure.
@@tibitzu365 sure. No doubt. But this was a presentation and observation of changes which could be made which is why I said in the video "with changes this can happen" or something to that effect
@@tibitzu365 examples were given how force multipliers would work and punish or dissuade blobbing. But you're lazer focused on the literal and not looking at the purpose and overarching goal of the example. Hence the "5 seconds 30, whatever" part. This implies it isn't a literal suggestion but an example of how to make smaller groups fight larger ones.
Doesn't have to even be a disable. Can be a snare effect or dissorient.
Yes, long range chip damage is, to me, an evasion issue and not a range issue. Defensive options are required to negate this issue. This is where breaking target lock game play is required. We alreafy have chaff. Further, stealth or specialised ship components load choices should be developed to allow choices. Everything that is currently cistomisable is focussed on offensive capability and offensive endurance. The game desperately needs defensive loadout options, components that trade off offensive capabilities for defensive capabilities (Evasion, stealth, target signature disruption, countermeasures, E-war etc).
What do you think the evasion issue is? I saw they buffed the maneuver speed when using engine power. Is that a good enough solution do you think? I worry that too much more maneuvering and speed and we get back to the previous issue we had pre-MM. I could be wrong though.
I do like the stealth development like you said. I never even thought of that. You're a smart cookie.
@@BuzzCutPsycho Perhaps, evasion could be something that inceeases with power triangle choices. Currently, power assignments are instant and capacitor and boost pool have a fixed ceiling. I'd like the ability to place 100% power assignment to engines and to gain a boost advantage that increases beyond a short term ceiling, perhaps, at the cost of forced shield HP depletion and/or weapons pool auto drain (Currently this isn't the case as the pool only retreats to zero when firing). Thus, power 50% to engines and 50% to shields would result in, over time, zero weapons pool, but the ships gains a defensive bonus with increased boost and shield pool. Note, boost affects G's, not too speed.
That isn't too bad what you suggested. The power triangle right now is very lacking and I feel like everything in-between 0 and 100 are worthless and may as well not even be there. I hate how binary of a choice it is and wish it was an actual choice and not a scripted decision. I am fine with engine power doing Gs.
Ive had good luck with evasion by surging forwards either boosting/ strafing to get out of their firing cone or a boosted corkscrew. Application of noise is also useful to break locks and buy windows to escape or reset the fight. Its still possible to evade. Its just a lot harder to do with with 100% effectiveness.
@@BuzzCutPsycho
Good to know. I am currently investigating a video sent to me where you can set a stick to high deflection and do some insane pip wiggle. If it is a real thing I will incorporate it into a video.
Trichording itself is based on the physics of the world we live in which makes it absolutely intuitive. I'm no ace pilot, far from it, but I've thrusted in multiple vectors in every physics-based space game I've ever tried. I can't imagine how anyone would consider it an exploit any more than modern spacecraft would consider it exploiting reality.
However, if it completely ruins gameplay or raises the bar so high as to push people away from even trying something then some compensating factor should be applied, realism be damned.
How is trichording removed in MM? Does it just stop you from thrusting in multiple vectors at once? Or do the lower speeds just make it less impactful. The former would be unthinkable as it would absolutely ruin the immersiveness of a physics-based flight model so I'd prefer the second to be true.
Or maybe I don't get it at all :)
The majority of your thrust comes from your engines and tri-cording is effectively removed entirely and gives very little G bonus if any. I think you're getting it. :D
They say MM lowers the skill ceiling, but it actually lowers the accessibility ceiling. People that are good at combat and tactics are still going to have the edge over those who don't. In EvE Online smaller skilled forces could undermine mega corps. Blob warfare was only useful in certain situations. There was a merc unit of 5-6 guys called the Mad Bombers that were so good at small squad tactics and head-games they broke corporations and alliances. They were a pita to fight but also fun to fight. If you want a real-world example, see Afghanistan: The Graveyard of Empires. They were invaded by the USSR at its peak in the 1980s and US military at its peak early 2000s and look who is in charge of Afghanistan after all that. Never underestimate a smaller force more focused and dedicated or with nothing to lose lol.
I understand completely. I think people are over estimating how large, disorganized numbers are going to be dominant. They just wont be.
@@BuzzCutPsycho Even with organization there is a level of diminishing returns where the chain of command becomes too cumbersome to be agile or too many strong personalities to not clash and cause other issues.
@@eltreum1 yes. Top heavy orgs cannot operate effectively at all. You are correct.
I would like to add: Regarding the issue with continuous shield regeneration, we should also think about heat management and energy management.
A shield cannot live in a constant state of regeneration, it will end up cooking itself and the rest of the ship.
Personally, I like the idea of adding weight to player's decisions, that is, how you set up your power triangle, how you set up the individual set ups of your systems, how you set up your ship build or load out. Preparation is half the battle after all.
You nailed it. Weight to decisions is the most important thing here and right now that is totally lacking.
I agree with 95% of your points in this video. I think ppl just hate change and are trying to apply how they’ve been flying to the new flight model and it isn’t working. So instead of adapting they just complain and say it’s broken. Is it perfect. Hell no. But I like it better and think it’s a lot more “realistic” being that 1 good pilot should not be able to beat 7 decent ones. If you are outnumbered that hard you should run or lose. Thats it.
Well I am glad you agree with most of it. I never expect people to agree 100%. I am always open to other views.
I think that's a big part of it. Old evasion tricks don't work therefore evasion is impossible under mm
Definitely true for some ppl, but not for all. Many of us like the new flight model but see new issues pop up and some that simply don't align with the philosophy we've been sold for SC. Hopefully it gets re-tuned bc as it stands its basically a p2w arcade game.
@@CitizenScott I'd disagree with the P2W angle.
Not sure how you can disagree tbh. If dps and tankiness trump skill then its the larger more expensive ships that win. @@gyratingwolpertiger6851
As a former FPS veteran back in the days of Quake, there was a huge rivalry between CS and Quake, so comparing the two is like apples to oranges. CS has the more realistic team oriented gameplay where quake was an individual skill based game where everyone was even with the same gear and equipment. There were no classes outside of specific mods. What made Quake Quake, was the fact it wasn't CS, likewise in reverse. Quake had mechanical movements and physics that elevated the player's skill level, while CS did not (Originally at the time Quake was in it's prime, it was added later to CS) and of course CS was more team oriented. Note: I'm talking about Half-Life multiplayer which came before CS and did not have bunny hopping.
If you want to compare apples to apples in regards to bunny hops, you should compare Return to Castle Wolfenstein to CS, both games had class based team gameplay, and bunny hops. Bunny hops in both games was only used to gain tactical advantage of the battlefield, it wasn't used as part of the individual player skillset. Both games were E-Sports, both games had major tournaments, both games had intermediate and pro game play leagues. CS was the World of Warcraft of FPS games, and always have been with COD being a close second to that. So comparing community size is irrelevant. Its like comparing the number of blizzard wow accounts to any MMO ever released.
One thing that was proven and learned between the Quake and CS communities was one simple fact: MOST CS'ers could not play quake no matter how hard they tried to learn, but Quake players could play CS as the only element of gameplay added was a better team orientation as opposed to Quake.
That said I'm not saying I disagree with MM, I love it in fact. But this is a space combat simulator, and bunny hopping is almost literally not applicable in such game and shouldn't be there in the same way people like to say it should be. Bunny hopping and exploiting a gameplay design issue are two different things. Yes Bunny hopping was originally a bug, but it was a bug the ENTIRE community loved, so it became a feature of those games.
It was traditional bug in Quake that became a feature in EVERY version of Quake ever released, and adopted by other game developers like Unreal Tournament series, Even Call of Duty series.
The whole animosity between CS and Quake is the misconception CS started the industry, they in fact did not. They created a different aspect of the same industry, but Quake started the "online" FPS genre which all future games were based around. Yes, I know Doom was out before Quake, but it wasn't online gameplay, it was modem to modem or LAN based and NOT over the internet. The original release of Counter Strike started in 1999. By that time Quake had been out for 3 years before Counter Strike started.
My man, I was a QTF, TFC, and Tribes player myself. In the days of Half-Life mods, I much preferred DoD, Firearms, or Natural Selection, even Frontline Force. I lived it. CS, to me, was always a bore due to its round-based gameplay.
While some may have enjoyed bunny hopping, there's a reason why it isn't in games anymore. The same goes for dolphin diving from Battlefield and power sliding from CoD. These elements may add "skill," but they're unintended consequences of engine mechanics being exploited. That was the entire reason for bringing it up. As Carmack said, just because people practice at it doesn't justify its existence. Want movement-based gameplay? Build it into the game and make it a feature with a keybind. Don't make it jank that people have to learn and exploit.
@@BuzzCutPsycho I played, Doom Duke, Quake 1-4, COD1, COD2, and RTCW before I moved to MMO's for 10 years, and 6 of those years professionally. I did play tribes as well it was fun and different. I also did play CS for 1 week, before I saw a speed bot and an aimbot in the same server, never touch the game again after that.
As I said the fact is this: yes it was a bug, that later turned into a feature, and I've named off 3 other games that adopted it already.
The point I was trying to make which I may not have explained clearly: Bunnyhopping was not an exploitation of a game bug because it became a feature. Those people are wrong to use it as a justification.
It was never an unintended bug after the Quake community fought to get it left in as a feature which inspired development of other games adopting slide, and bunny hopping.
And guess who started Slide mechanic? Quake CPMA mod which was released in 1999, and again other games followed suit to adopt the slide mechanic.
Where as the glitch you are talking about within a space combat simulator is an entirely different animal.
I agree it shouldn't be allowed in SC, I love MM as it is developing and agree with it.
Hope that clarifies I was long-windedly agreeing with you along with some useless historical facts.
Fun Fact: The phrase "pwn3d" did not start in Counter Strike either lol! They like to think it did, but it was ripped off by CS'ers because of RTCW, and its actual meaning meant, "Panzer owned" when you scored a 6 man kill shot.
And, Yes, I'm old af, as I've been gaming online for 28 years now.
As one who's tired of all the MM bad/good talk, you bring solid evidence supporting your stance, seeing several people want to try more combative roles that haven't been the "fighter playstyle person" in this game due to the MM change is healthy not for just pvp but the game as a whole. This brings me to some questions I'm curious about and want to hear your take on.
Do you see with MM changes Large ships becoming a potent threat in combat? For example, if fighter class ships are engaged but then a bigger ship with manned turrets comes in in favor of one side will the opposite side become more hesitant to engage the ship/keep in the fight?
In most videos, I see your clips while in a fighter, do you think the changes coming will affect what ships you fly?
As CIG stated they want to make the ship combat more aligned with the naval style of combat, do you feel they are going more in that direction or leading away from it?
I too am very tired of the MM talk, but I felt like this video would be good enough to bring something new to think about, so I took a risk and made it. I am glad you enjoyed it.
I did see the changes and have seen them in action, and as it stands now, the Connie and Hammerhead are terrifying to light fighters that cannot maneuver around their guns. They can do it to the Connie but not the Hammerhead. I think without the introduction of ships designed to counter larger ones into MM such as the Ares, or even the Gladiator, we will see LF players very cautious on their approach to the big ones, most likely ignoring the Hammerheads. I think this is a good thing.
The changes will certainly affect the ships I fly and place me firmly in the heavy and above category. I am not a good LF pilot and never will be; my heart isn't in it. But anything heavier and I am sold on it. I plan to spend as much time in a Hammerhead as possible with a crew slinging death at anyone stupid enough to come close. And I am very excited for Hammerhead on Hammerhead fights.
I detest master modes for two reasons:
One, feels gamey as fuck. Switch for "travel mode" and "fighting mode". Same reason I despised bunny hopping back then, and concussion jumping in Team Fortress Classic. Regardless of skill level it feels wrong and goofy.
Two, I like speed. The way the new speed limits look, they make feel like getting out and walking.
I didn't like bhop or conc jumps in TFC either but I am perplexed at why you dislike those but also think MM feels similar? Perhaps I am not fully understanding. MM removes a lot of those similarities between gamey stuff between the two games.
As for speed? They are just locked SCM. And those are still fast, just hard to feel fast in space without a landmark to tell you how fast you are going.
@@BuzzCutPsycho Back then I wanted to have a serious feel for the game and having soldiers jumping around at lightning speed broke the feel of the game. It looked idiotic.
A "master switch" to change between game modes is one more onto the pile of CIG lazy solutions to "problems". Like using beams for everything. And I use problems in quotes because space games have been made since forever and now it turns out that there's a problem with speed that CIG of all companies is going to finally solve. And with a switch no less.
Every day that passes SC moves farther and farther away from the "high fidelity" experience it was supposed to be, to the "minimum to get things done" we are getting 12 years later. More and more like a lowest common denominator game that didn't warrant the funds raised or the time spent.
It raises questions too. If there are capacitors that can restore your shields instantly upon switching modes why can't I use them for other things? Why can I not keep them charged and effectively have twice the shields? Or move all the power away from the shields and keep regenerating them for a while with said capacitors?
No one cares about those though. It's game, just arbitrary rules and numbers I guess.
Our difference in opinion about flight is just as big as in combat on foot. I mean, saying Battlefield of all games is great and Rainbow Six Siege is garbage says a lot on that part.
I hate how fast soldiers move and it looks stupid. Strafe speed is the biggest issue right now and makes the game look stupid. I am in 100% agreement with you on that brother.
DCS guy has one point about 45's and formation flying. 🤣 45's are realistic in the sense that fast jets have to roll specific angles of bank to produce G's in a turn in level flight. 60* AoB, pull back on the stick, and you're in a 2G turn. Doesn't matter if it's a F-22, Boeing 777, or a hang glider. If the airframe has the power and structural integrity, it'll pull 2G's. 75.5* AoB = 4G turn. 80.4 = 6G turn. 83.6* = 9G turn. When flight control surfaces come into the game, it's going to introduce a lot of difficulty to SC if CIG does it correctly.
Which ties in to formation flying in atmosphere. Pilots look at their flight lead's AoB to determine what stick input they need to match the rest of the formation in the turn. There is an F-16 called the CCV, which had independently controlled canards. Those canards allowed the CCV to yaw a bit like a SC ship so the jet could turn without rolling. Pilots said it was a nightmare to formation fly because they didn't have any of the reference ques they were used to.
Formation flying may be a very high skill ceiling activity in SC. It depends on what CIG gives us. I've yet to wrap my head around how to do it in space.
No denying there is an element of "realism" to the argument. But, I will always argue (in game design) for breaking away from the self imposed shackles of realism in favor of better gameplay and balance.
Exactly. Should happen in atmosphere but not in space. More depth please not less.
So what speed in space is acceptable to you? Is it limitless? Or whatever you can manage to get to through momentum?
The concept is correct, but it’s not angle of bank that changes g’s. A bank turn (no pitch change) at any level of bank will maintain more or less 1g, but your vector will fall to the ground (in atmosphere). To maintain a level turn you have to increase thrust or angle of attack to negate the force pulling you towards the ground. So for formation flying if you are maintaining the same constant speed, and maintaining level flight, a bank angle between two planes will produce the same turn. They aren’t really paying attention to g-load to maintain formation (they’re looking at wings), but the planes will produce the same g-load, airframe independent. Where you do pay attention to g-load is in measuring turns; I.e. for certain maneuvers you are going at a set speed, you know if you match your g-load to 1% of your speed you can expect a consistent turning radius, which is helpful for placing you a certain distance from poi (an airstrip, for example), and this is independent of formation flying. Having a consistent, predictable g-load physics is important for predictable flight.
There should be no speed limit, just g-limits. It’s the changes in vectors and thrust that cause g’s… not speed.
@@BuzzCutPsycho I touched on it in my other reply, but since there is no air-resistance in space, speed should increase with how long your thrusters are on and how powerful they are, there should be no 'speed limit'. The only limits should exist in real world consequences of g's (consciousness and airframe stability), and those are affected by thrust and vector changes coupled with speed. i.e. if you choose to try and initiate a sharp turn at 1000kh, you're going to pass out if you don't manage it properly, or your airframe will collapse, etc. Speed limits in space remove the nuance of space flight, and turn it into atmosphere flight. Atmospheric flight is fun, but star citizen has both, it shouldn't try and make them feel the same, and at the very least, the speed should be greater than what current age atmosphere based jets can fly.
Pushing back on the “gameplay” argument: There are plenty of space games that hold no meaningful relationship to real world physics. People maining flight dynamic objectives in star citizen are doing so because it’s the closest there is for navigating the pros and cons of realistic flight in space and atmosphere. That *is* the fun. If it ruins someone else’s gameplay to have the flight physics more realistic, well, then it’s just a matter of determining what type of player you want to please. If you lose the realism, you lose a lot of the space flight sim crowd, in favor of allowing people who don’t have as much interest in flight but want to clink around in a ship in space, and vice versa. Neither play style is ‘better’ than the other, but let’s not pretend a non-realistic flight model is making it ‘more fun,’ it’s just making it more fun for a specific style of play at the expense of another.
People who worry about numbers and skills ceiling will be shocked when we get proper role diversity and customisation. MM should result in industrial ships no longer being sitting ducks. Role diversity becomes essential to be effective at gaining control of opponents.
Yes. And role diversity drastically increases the choice players have in the game.
oh you'll love MM when even the most unskilled pilot will be able to grief you .
THAT SOUNDS BASED
Only difference will be that your turrets can now shoot down the griefer instead of them just endlessly jousting you to death or escape.
@RasakBlood
Spot on man mid fighters should dominate in atmosphere only
Exploit / bugs like trichording aren't always bad by default. Bullet jumping in Warframe was fleshed out and added as an actual feature after the community discovered it and some 'sweatlords' were utilizing it.
Cannot speak on it. Can only mention the games I did and they were bad for them imo ;)
@@BuzzCutPsycho I'm not denying it. I'm just saying to be fair we need to look if there are opposite cases (which there are) to not look biased. :)
@@pawe6199 understood. :)
I fully understand the frustrations of the pvp gods. But I belong to the ones frustrated by not having a chance against these gods. When I was younger I was very fond of high speed gameplay, but as I get older (the main audience of the game anyway) I prefer strategy, and good team play over just being a single pro that carries whoever they play with.
So all in favour myself. Hope they will still allow a small window for skill to indeed overpower if the numbers are equal.
I am sure the skill window will always remain. Never underestimate how bad players can be.
I like master modes. Been playing a lot of AC.
Same. Loving it so far. Pumped for the big ships.
I remember this one fight on Mech Warrior Online. Now for those not in the known MWO is based off the Table Top Battle Tech Game & Mech Warrior Franchise that spun off said table top game. The whole function of Mechwarrior/Battle Tech is combined Arms and while Combined Arms is not focused in MWO (often because budget but Living Legends a free mod based off the Crysis does combined arms). However the point stands. Its a Company vs Company fight so its 12 v 12 (where each unit is broken up into lances of 4 mechs).
In most cases The fights often de-volve into Gokarting where one team shifts into the other team. However in some rare instances you get actual battlefield tactics where terrain, leveraging of arms and focus fire make great fights.
So in this battle one person on com's goes "Whose going to command" since no one wanted the job I took it, studying the map I figured the that due to the nature of most fights Gokarting was going to be tactic the other team employed by taking higher terrain while we take lower terrain putting us in a disadvantage. Instead I issue orders to a Light Lance (mechs with low armor but high mobility) to stall with hit and run tactics. Asked if they had any air or artillery strikes to use it so it keeps the other team off balance. The other mechs in the unit were a mixture of medium, heavy and assault mechs. Unable to maintain higher speed I made the decision the best option is to head to a ridge and capture the choke point while having the Medium mechs and faster heavies screen the assaults as to not allow their lights to break into the formation. Now an often tactic of light mechs is to force heavier mechs to squirrel. As the name goes a dog chases a squirrel and often gets into bigger trouble. Their side had a light or two plus a heavy push into our rear. Again ordered to not break formation and push the screen. Focus fire on any lights that get close but ignore the others because the goal was to crack the formation. Eventually the bulk of our forces made it to the choke and the lights bought enough time even scoring a kill on a heavy mech that chased (poor bastard, those lights were on a 70 mech like a fat man at a buffet). Their ineffective tactics made them lost 2 lights and a heavy support mech.
With a deficit of a whole lance down and our side only suffering a few losses (those lights gave their all)... We forced their group to smash into our battle line. Each call was every Assault mech that pushed was pelted by Long Range missiles, assault mechs shared their armor shielding each other while dishing out their own. Mediums and Heavies made sure none of their mediums could push or break. At each push I had the assaults pull black, and as soon as they got up the hill they were met by Gauss and Autocannon. Slowly one by one every mech they had was torn by LRM, Laser and Autocannon. Our bend dont break to hold that pass won, leveraging what we had, focusing down their big armor to mean nothing at the same time conserving ours. Fights like that are few and far between because everyone believes themselves to be One Man Armies and I personally blame Call of Duty for instilling that kind of thought into the average gamer mind. A good on field commander is a force multiplier, not a hot shot who will often cause the team to fail.
Good story. I used to play MWO myself, left after the ghost heat oddities and strange handling of clan mechs. But, ignoring all that.
Your story sums up the potential of a group, even a random one working together against another even against the odds. CoD may be to blame for the one man army nonsense but that is too easy a game to blame. I think it is entirely generational and a sign of where the industry has gone. MMO games now are even solo player oriented with the game constantly having NPCs tell you how amazing and awesome you are. I hate that stuff. I prefer games where you're just a loser going about your business trying to make it in a violent, cold world that doesn't care about you. Maybe I am weird!
Unrelated - MWO is apparently working on a sequel according to No Guts No Galaxy.
@@BuzzCutPsycho I would argue that E-sports & METAslaving more or less caused a chain reaction to where we are right now. Addressing the MMO aspect, I think there's two giants that actually show the problem with current landscape. WoW and FFXIV, both have their positives and negatives. WoW's GM team after Wrath pretty much dropped the ball when it came to policing people doing the 'kick tank' when people would just screw up pressing a button. On the same hand FFXIV GM team does a good job policing a bit too much but coddles players by allowing the skill bar to be buried. This in turn robbed players of interpersonal skills and group play because why get better when the dungeon content is easy and most 8 man story fights can be beat with 6 players.
CoD is just an easier punching bag because of how popular Modern Warfare 2 sort of promoted the one man army persona and e-sports. Machima posted a lot of gameplay from good players just thrashing lobbies getting 30 kill nukes. Then the arrival of e-sports teams (aka omg im sending my tape to FaZe) did push this Solo God player mentality.
Also current MWO is based off Cryengine and Mechwarrior 5 is using UE5...so it makes sense of a remake using UE5. Since modders have been using MWO frames and importing them into MW5 via mods.
I also want to add this on the edit.
I do believe a strong GM team will go a very long way...as well equal punishment. A care bear that serially flags players for griefing needs to be punished equally as the griefer.
E-sports are totally a part of it. Another is how the modern internet has lead people to think less for themselves and rely on more "guides" which also plays into the meta aspect you mentioned.
WoW/FF14 are 100% to blame for the current state of MMO games. They are now what define what people think of a modern MMO as and for me that just isn't it. Instancing, little world interaction, no player interaction required.
The GM part is interesting. Last MMORPG I played with GMs in it that spoke to me was FF14. Never had that in WoW much post WoTLK. But yeah FF14 is way too moderated, I am sure modern WoW is now too.
In general I think MMOs are dead until they get away from the WoW model. It is why I go so hard on balance, design, accessibility and player action/accountability in Star Citizen. I want it to succeed and be the next big MMO.
@@grygaming5519
@@BuzzCutPsycho I would say WoW and XIV are the symptoms.
Its safe to say that the need for content is what depleted WoW to a major extent. FFXIV just finished its 10 year arc and starting a brand new story with Dawn Trail (depending how it goes is up in the air). However I think this is the primary reason why MMO's are on life support. People go through content too fast and demand more. Not like back in the late 2000s where the exploration and grind was the content. (also for XIV...zones and instances = promising an MMO to be on a console).
Balance wise oddly the FF community is saying the game is far too balanced because every Tank/heal/DPS plays as a copy of each other with very little nuance. Except that's...community inflected. WoW is arguing the opposite, too much variation leading to inability to balance. It seems both games have a hard time finding the middle.
GM moderation is what's going to make or break Star Citizen. I actually believe fully that the care bear and the griefer should be punished equally. False Reporting players should carry the same bannable weight as someone disrupting gameplay/targeted harassment. The reason I say that is because if people cry wolf far too much, then those who need to be punished get overlooked.
You nailed my gripe with FF14. A tank was just a tank. I played a warrior, tried Paladin, Gunblade, and the Dark Knight and they all just felt the same. Stuck with warrior since he was the least edgy of them all. I am shocked you are such a big FF14 fan, I only played for Crystaline Conflict, got Crystal and never played again. I think in the last expansion I made it to the moon, rode a golden dog and never played again. I just need something more from a game than what FF14 gives me. I do love the warm look and feel it gives me though. Very wholesome in some ways. Weird I know.@@grygaming5519
HOLD THE F**K UP! WAIT WAIT WAIT!
I know this is a long shot, but when I see "BuzzCutPsycho" and "The Enclave" I think of one thing.....
PLANETSIDE (the original)
am I thinking of a different BuzzCutPsycho & Enclave? Or is that you!? Played Terran Republic?
Same BCP from Konried and Emerald.
unearned condescension and just bad takes, and backing it up with a dev who said "i am bad at fps so i added a crosshair".
i'm not in either camp, old and coming ship combat is just overall bad.
also i'm a player, not marketing nerd. i do not care about player count and how "accessible" a game is.
if eurotruck simulator started adding something like an oppressor mk2 from GTA Online to make more sales because people love to clown around and it got more players,
making it "accessible" by allowing it to be controlled with rolling your head over the keyboard repeatedly and getting a win screen somehow,
that doesn't make the original playerbase who enjoyed actual trucking in their game "nerds", and saying that makes you a pretty sad shill who puts money over what a game originally set out to be.
so really not surprised you are in good standing with CIG.
lolumad
Man what a well thought out comment!
the best star citizen youtuber
You're too kind. I am mediocre at best. ;)
Well said, and spot on 🤙🏻
Thanks man! I am glad to see this video getting some reach now. Always nice to see people sharing it around.
I agree with a lot of what you said except for one point. At the 10:30 mark you said the notion of a solo Ace Pilot being a threat to a squadron was a preposterous one. American Ace Maj. James Howard did it in January 1944 while in a P-51 Mustang. The lone escort of a squadron of bombers, Howard faced off against about 30 enemy aircraft. Howard alone downed at least 6 enemy aircraft (likely more but not confirmed). Even after running out of ammunition, Howard continued to "bluff" the enemies, using his skills as an Ace and the superior maneuverability of his aircraft. He successfully escorted the bombers and suffered only a single bullet hit to the wing of his Mustang. He was awarded the Medal of Honor for that flight alone. It's not preposterous, it's heroic, and it happens.
I was speaking very much from the perspective of a good video game, particularly an MMO. I avoid real life examples for a reason.
The problem with that is that is the case of one man on how many millions? We can’t have 5-10 on every 100 people servers
Exactly. It is a game. :D@@GUNJOEXD
Interesting take. While I understand real-life examples are not always ideal, for a game that is widely touted as a WWII dogfighter in space, it is a pertinent example of what a skilled pilot in a superior craft can do, even against incredible odds. That is a lesson that is easily transferrable from IRL to a game like SC. @@BuzzCutPsycho
@@GUNJOEXD I'm guessing you mean it was one man out of how many millions...? True, but if that had happened more than once during an IRL war (a lone fighter protecting a squadron), we would've had a serious problem. Of course that only happened once, but what was much more common, especially later on in the war as the skill gap increased between the pilots and the aircraft got better, faster and more maneuverable was having Ace pilots routinely take on 2-3 and even 4 enemy aircraft and win. American Triple-Ace Bud Anderson emerged victorious from many 3 v 1 battles. Even a 6 v 2 with him and his wingman. So in reality, better skilled pilots in better aircraft would routinely down their inexperienced counterparts that were in slower and less maneuverable aircraft. Why can you not have 5-10 "Aces" in a server of 100? I don't think that would be unreasonable at all.
You sir, have some great ideas, great vid!
I appreciate that! Even if people disagree I throw them at for public brainstorming.
Ive spent alot of time thinking of how the game will stay balanced, and having constantly regenning shields would def be a great way to help that@@BuzzCutPsycho
I would like to at least try it. It couldn't hurt. See? I am not entirely anti-LF!
So many great points made in this video, you've got very strong intuition and foresight on game design and the way players behave.
Thanks man. I've been in and out of the industry as both a player and consultant for 20+ years now. I've picked up a lot of things in those two decades that people have either forgot or never knew.
I don’t pretend to be an authority on these things but I genuinely feel that I speak from a position of knowledge and experience. Not every has to agree with me and I don't expect it but I do appreciate people at least giving me a chance.
Thank you again.
Oh! And all I ever ask is that people share the video around. I do like having eyes on the content. And I like the comments even more.
what game was the military game??? i feel like i have seen it
Foxhole.
Well said!
Thanks:)
With the shields I think a good way to compare it is to real world or DCS )A flight sim), When flying in dcs and you get into a dogfight you don't have the liberty to wait for a shield, You are trapped into a fight and you make a mistake you are dead, you can disengage from fights but at a very hefty risk of being shot down. MM reminds of this, where if there are more people the harder it is a for a skilled pilot to survive.
So that is a good thing right?
@@BuzzCutPsycho Its the best thing possible, DCS dogfighting is intense, now where to run, you against another pilot. coolest shit ever as it really shows who is the better pilot.
Think MM is getting to have something similar? Sounds like you do.
Reminds me of GunZ and K-style. Community would throw tantrums because you shot them with a gun instead of spending hours learning how to exploit a system.
E honor bushido code
Surprisingly, you highlighted the exact issue with pirates that the community has. The pvp croud says bring an escort. But they are expected to do so with only a roughly 2% chance of encounter. Yet you neec to pay that escort as much as 50% of profits. Even if you have the escort, pirates rarely fly alone. Usualy, when you encounter them its a full squad of battle trained pilots fully kitted out. Against, the one or two escorts you brought.
As to master moded I only have ywo aspects I really dislike. 1) Input limiting, where when flying with full thrust forward you can't use maneuvering without removing thrust from the forward direction. Its an unintuitive behavior, which has caused me to hit a few objects. Though I will agree that this behavior does make sense for ships with thrust diverting from main to thrusters. However, it doesn't make any sense in ships like the cutless. And 2) slowing down from boost even in space while decoupled. I'm trying to figure out where the force to being exerted to slow the object is coming from. It just doesn't feel right or intuitive to me.
Other than that I have no issues with master modes. Just will take a bit of retraining. I think the slowing down from boost is the one bothering me the most. It just doesn't feel like a 'space' game with that behavior.
"Bring an Escort" is a meme at this point honestly. It means nothing, and is just used as a hand waving insult.
And a common complaint is losing momentum out of nav. I think that is purely done for gameplay reasons.
Again, I completely agree with you. The game is headed in the right direction.
Not only will the fights be cinematic and eye pleasing, new players/ casual players will be able to participate in large scale battles.
There are several people I cannot win in a 1v1 setting. This means I have to put in the time to get better. But in a group setting we can win.
I am glad there is still is a skill ceiling with an easier learning curve (easy to play hard to master). I did not like the Mount Everest learning curve with the Ace pilot being able to 1v10 (or more) and win as there was before.
A skilled MMA fighter could take on 2-3 low average skilled fighters and win, but add a 4th and he most likely will lose. Even 3 is extremely difficult to fight solo.
The team setting is the mot important to me and I am glad you acknowledged it. How you play with the group is going to be crucial here. I enjoy the "Mount Everest" learning curve example quite a bit actually. There is no gradual slope for the current system, you either get it or you don't. I think you will see more "ace" pilots once people figure out MM and decide it is something they want to pursue.
Great comment.
Good luck getting the pvp dogfighter community to get behind MM. Most want Call of Duty in space, where light fighters (and now, the Hornet) rule all because "it allows for skill expression" and screw everything else. Half of them don't want RPS/role counters and the other half want to continue to be able to solo a Hammerhead if they're persistent enough(and the HH crew is hardheaded/stupid enough).
Thankfully those idiots are being ignored and CIG is going full steam ahead on MM. Connie is really good on EPTU too.
I was going to comment here to merely increase the metrics on what I consider a good video, however, I notice that there are already over 100 comments so now I'm commenting on that.
Hey thanks. You know I always like having more comments. This section is a warzone sometimes.
Thank you for this video. I've seen so many "pro PvP" players upset about this change. They should be celebrating that it will make PvP more accessible to other players. I'm not a great fighter pilot but I've enjoyed the matches I've had in Master Mode AC. I've gotten some kills but still lost most. It will still take time to get really good so the skill ceiling is still high, but people will have a chance to fight and win now.
Thank you for commenting on this video. :)
The idea that MM is going to marginalize good players is totally bogus. They're still going to be good. But your experience is what is important to focus on because you kept playing. You felt like you has a chance and because you had a chance you stayed engaged. That is what we are going for here.
Cheers for the content
Thank you for watching it. I wouldn't make it unless people enjoyed it. :D
Im curious because for this tricording thing has me thinking will it be possible to play in the MM with the speed limiter on because I absolutely hate combat with it off but as a mouse and keyboard player you absolutely cannot dodge shots from a Hotas player if you are using M&KB. Because apparently the speed limiter is always off with Hotas and gives them full access to all thrusters but as a M&KB player you have to turn the speed limiter off in order to have that as well. Which I think is insane and unfair but just never really spoken of not up until recently.
MKB has always been at a disadvantage no matter what the fighter nerds tell you. I don't know if MM will make it that much different but it will help a bit. So long as auto-aim is in the game MKB will struggle since aim isn't as important as maneuvers. Whether or not you prefer that is personal preference.
@@BuzzCutPsycho I absolutely agree I have been having these arguments since 3.4 because they made some flight change then that basically is the current flight system now where everything was balanced in 2.6.3. It took me a week to learn how to PVP compared to this current one fighting to chase the pip and hit reg lol.
Well your arguments paid off since you're getting what you want brother :D@@01SHADOW
There are good mouse and key pilots, my friend Yosilas will give most a run for their money. If you dislike having to set a speed limiter, MM is in part technically a speed limiter by design. also takes away the control/fancy flying you see in videos from stick or good mouse/key pilots@@01SHADOW
100% it is a speed limiter just one everyone is forced to use.
I think the reason for MM is because in the current game basically makes turrets useless. The rest of this is just a byproduct.
Very true good take
Your constant commentary puts into words the reasons for why I leave most orgs. These people don't know which end of a phone charger not to stick up their own ass.
LOL well most orgs in SC are totally out of touch with the reality of the game. They play pretend often to the detriment of themselves.
Dude I love your videos and 100% agree. And for one this is CR wanted it from the beginning.
Thanks dude. I am glad you enjoy them. Even happier to hear CR wanted something similar. :D
BTW, what player org are you part of?
The Enclave
@@BuzzCutPsycho 365 members, now that is a solid piracy organisation.
Well there isn't much piracy to be had in Star Citizen sadly. But we do kill people!
I still remember when ares came out that it could damage targets more than 4km away... always lies from cig.
Maybe it will be 8km away with the new MM changes?!?
"Bring an escort."
"Bring friends."
Brilliant
Haha. I thought it was sparky enough to include.
I so fervently agree with your point of continuous regeneration! For everything! Why does boost not regenerate for a bit after using it or even while using it? Same for weapons and shields. It's an artificial mechanic that doesn't make sense and leads directly to the light or even snub fighter meta we have now. That's also my gripe with master modes. It's entirely random and artificial that you would not have any shields if you travel too fast. That's filling one hole with another one
Thanks man. I don't think people realize how those little changes can go such a far way.
The people who are ace pilots are going to be ace pilots again, it wasnt a coincidence, they are obsessed.
Yes. But they will be far less significant and impactful in certain situations.
Great example of force multipliers using the Antares of all ships!
Indeed it is! Too bad it sucks right now.
IMO, the Antares, considering its current singular task for the co-pilot; should still be converted into a single-seat fighter (i.e. EMP control also being available to the pilot).
I would just have them give the Antares another task, or a smaller, distortion only turret. I do like a powerful EMP on a 2 seat craft. So long as it is powerful enough. But that is just my opinion. The role now isn't too terribly exciting.
considering the f8 outperforms in all metrics the base Scorp which has 2x the weapon loadout, of the Antares both variants could be ran solo and not be OP, an f8 does 90% of the dps with 2x the shields and isn't made of glass or have the fragile wing + horrible convergence issues. The Antares needs a second shield and more powerful emp to be able to get in and attempt tactics like in the video. I like strategy but as death of a spaceman comes along, likely sacrificing that poor team of 2 on a kamikaze run will need to be more beneficial to the team.
I would expect those heavies to get some love once they are in master modes similar to how the vanguard did@@Blindside337
@@Blindside337 the f8 is an op mess and it does invalidate everything else but I'm sure it'll change
People will just multi-box this kind of ships anyway, if a task in a seat is so easy and boring that it can be done by a four year old than most players will not bother to man such a seat with a real person. Though my little daughter is happy with that Antares or controlling the claw in the reclaimer for daddy. ;-)
Are they really an ace pilot if they think they can wade into a 5 v 1 fight and win? Because that kind of tells me they can't assess a fight which is a bit of a key skill for an ace.
Hey I can get 5 kills with my F16C if I sit on the deck and nobody looks at me. ;)
@@BuzzCutPsycho I don't think my point came across. It was more they're probably not as good as they think they are if they get into a fight like that.
@@gyratingwolpertiger6851
Ooh ok. Yes you are correct. Sorry I misunderstood you there. I was also mentioning my low skill vulture kills in warthunder air rb. ;)
the arguments remind of gripes on games which are team FPSs (BF, PS2, etc.) where "balance" seems to be view as how 1:1 engagements play out
People trying to balance around 1 to 1 has always confused me. Things scale very different and none of the games you mentioned are 1v1 centric yet people focused on it. Very weird.
How is 45 an exploit its littlerly the diagonal axis you can turn...
I turned your mom 45 degrees diagonally
@@BuzzCutPsycho I think my kid is far more mature then you are, ill post these replies to my org so we can laugh at you
Good analysis
Thanks :)
Very good sir, very good.
Many many thanks!
Can anyone tell me where I can find pvp 1v1s as are seen in this video in the background footage? I'd this some arena commander mode? Especially if I can do it multi crew
Those are all done in the PU but you can find them in arena commander usually.
@@BuzzCutPsycho wait so I just go annoy people or how's that work?
@@theuselessteammate2097 there is an etiquette. But basically you find them in free flight. Get their attention and flare. If they wanna fight they flare back. You pass one another and go fight.
ok but the flight system in master modes feels like the flight system in battlefield games.
ships literally fly at biplane speeds.
Cool if you want to fly at casual 90s arcade game speeds.
personally it's not the gameplay I helped kickstart.
and I'm not part of the pvp community.
You may not be a part of the PvP community but you're still an idiot.
Boosted 500 m/s is over 1,000 MPH. What do you think standard SCM speed is and is it faster or slower than "literally biplane speeds" ?
@@BuzzCutPsycho maybe I did misunderstand something about the speeds. my bad guess I learned something. I will however no longer watch any of your content because of your complete lack of respect.
Thk now i understand better, well explain
You're welcome
Bro nice work. Sounds like im listening someone read a Janes flight book.
Hah thanks a lot. Never been compared to that and I appreciate it. I always say I don't expect 100% agreement but I do like when people enjoy the videos.
@@BuzzCutPsycho You bet. FWIW I think you have the best overall commentary on Master Modes and I look forward to getting my hands on it. Keep it up.
Thanks a bunch. After my next video I am going to be covering turrets, multi-crew and aim assist.@@ravenragnar
@@BuzzCutPsycho Excellent, this is the way.
Maybe dial S3 ranges and below to closer to PU ranges and 4 and up stay as they are?
That would certainly separate the two. Where do you think the "big gun" begins in terms of size? I've already felt 5 and above was the big ship guns with the big range. With 4 being the biggest fighter gun
@@BuzzCutPsycho That's something I'd stick to personally as outside of certain ships it works. It does place the Vanguards in an awkward spot but I'm sure something could be figured out.
The Connie as an example to me falls into being a anti fighter/medium craft gunship role so maybe a ship specific exception could be made based on role? I'll admit personally I've always felt the Connie's turrets too short ranged.
Connie is actually pretty good on EPTU now. It's turrets aren't too impressive but they don't have to be. The frontloaded damage on the ship is impressive with size 5s.
@@BuzzCutPsycho I'll admit I've been mostly focussing on the Hornet as that's my favourite fighter.
It's good to hear the Connie is in a good state.
Seems like Gladius is king again :(@@gyratingwolpertiger6851
remove weapon pips at ranges below 1km, that will balance the engagments to true skill.
Id remove pips entirely!
@@BuzzCutPsycho agreed
agree.
Yogii talk about this with disapointment ! he didnot disagree !
Great video and great points! Not sure how anyone can argue any of these points.
They'll still try.
Tricording is absolutely intuitive, unless you think two or three people pushing a cart to accelerate it faster is an exploit. It's basic elementary school physics that a little kid can understand. Two people don't have to push a cart in exactly the same direction for it to accelerate faster. How is this an exploit when it's something you see all the time in real life?
Yeah, it's so intuitive that it got removed, and most people hate it. It's also intuitive that you get more thrust and acceleration with three small engines than with the two larger ones in the rear. Right?
I get what you’re saying, but there’s also many aspects of the game that remove real life intuition and draw you to rely on previous gaming experience intuition. A few examples being: It’s a game and as such people naturally think to past game experience first before many real life similarities, We also do not often experience the 6 degrees of freedom outside of swimming in a pool or something, things like shooting a laser at a rock to crack it into smaller chunks is not something many people anywhere get to experience. Yes, wildly different detail than flight, but it s piece of the puzzle that draws you away from it. Again, i get what you’re saying but the point overall is not to make only PVPer lives easier but all players as an averaged whole. Trichording makes sense to those who put in many hours and take the time to think about how x input on throttle affects y, but it doesn’t really make sense to the vast majority. Should that mean the mechanic as a whole is removed? No, and it wasn’t. The part that was removed was the fact that trichording pushed you above certain limits hence the exploit argument. It’s still a valid mechanic iirc but is not longer an outright better way to fly all the time
To me these 6DOF games always played like no-clip Quake with acceleration. People try to make seem like the game is super nuanced but that is always how I have seen it. Besides I believe they removed it entirely. Your swimming pool analogy is pretty spot on. @@origin-d.g.9199
@@BuzzCutPsycho ahh, I may have misread whatever spectrum post had it a few months ago I think it was? I can’t remember now but either way I think the issue many folks have is less about mechanics being removed and more about just the frustration of having to learn/relearn something they previously were highly skilled at. I completely understand that, but I will still stand on the side of MM being a smart change. PVP folk will get to sink their teeth in as more systems come online like armor, shielding changes, ballistic ammo types, actual differences in laser weapons, and so on. All the small details that make up the whole still have a long way to go and MM was in reality just one of those small changes. It’s just that when isolated feels like a massive one.
Well done on the video. I think you had a fairly balanced take with some good thoughts and whether or not you are right/wrong, it induces debate. @nozumuyume I’d like to hear more from your side. Give us some context to your thoughts here because I personally don’t fully understand the downside to the change so I’d love to hear what it takes away from. Cheers
Thanks man. I am bad at the videos IMO but I am good at the talking I think.
I get people being upset about re-learning, but I go into SC fully expecting to relearn everything. I had to relearn FPS just recently and just accepted it. I am not marginalizing their skill or success but if relearing something means the game is better overall I am totally for it.@@origin-d.g.9199
How the hell do i QT jump in Master modes?
Aint in yet
yes which is nice@@tibitzu365
I think its stupid to see tricording as an exploit. Using 3 directions to counter and control your movment is litterally a function of operating in a 3D environment with 6°s of movement! All they needed was slower speeds. Not get rid of the ability to fly your space ship like an actual space ship!
How do space ships fly? Do they tri-cord irl?
I agree with quantom here as if you give a ship 3 outputs of thrust you will in fact move on a diagonal vector the same as when a car drifts there are 2 outputs of thrust the rear tyres pushing forward and the friction of the front/steer tyres pushing left or right wich add up to the car moving in a diaginal vector.
The part that Is almost an exploit is the 40% gian in thrust as the main engine is still outputting full thrust when tricording your only adding manoeuvring boosters which should only give you maby a 10% increase of thrust
@@BuzzCutPsycho yes
Dont like master modes. My ships cannot maneuver well enough in gun fights. Sucks that now it favors groups and leaves out solo players.
As opposed to before where it didn't favor groups ?
Missiles not even in the fray???
I'll make a missile video eventually.
@@BuzzCutPsycho They are so busted for now and little to no real damage or potential to get the kill, its all guns and close range combat sadly.
@@driftnut666 you're not wrong. Once i see how they are in MM i plan to do a video about them. They're always bad.
I wholeheartedly agree with this and my main game loop is PvP. Well said. It will be much better for the game with changes Master modes bring.
Thanks man. I am very excited to see how the general population reacts to it once it hits PU.
This is a 3DOF vs 6DOF argument. I can wrap my head around both, I don't think tri-cording is hard to do or understand. The gamers are used to 3DOF which is why there's a learning curve here. Your position essentially dumbs down 6DOF with invisible walls. Star citizen has too many invisible walls fisting players to behave a certain way, which isn't a good thing at all. I think they should remove these walls in space, because they don't exist. WTF is a speed limit in a vacuum anyways? And put these walls in atmo, where they belong, in a flight physics model of 3DOF, where there's air, a real thing. This won't happen I think, its just what I'd like to see, the problem being the actual design of the ships has nothing to do with practicality or function, style is overwhelming function.
Your idea about shields is something I'd like to see.
I just want an accessible game. The old system wasn't it. This is getting there and it still has enough depth that noobs have no idea what is going on. I don't tend to go with realism too much in games I admit. I am a big believer in easy to learn difficult to master. That is truly what I want out of SC personally.
PVP trolls don't have friends, that is why they fear Master Modes the most.
Lol this
Once the big gameplay change heebie-jeebies wears off youll stop hear all these nonsense concerns and doubts. People just gotta wait until we have more of MM to start being "concerned" about gameplay we havent even been able to see in live yet. I call it SC madness, its the fictitious fantasy in your head i myself have been afflicted by due to the severe lack of all this content CR has promised for so long, the wait is maddening 😂
People are freaking out before the system is even in place. They will learn to love it. OR ELSE.
Having huge numbers in a game like Star Citizen is actually quite worthless unless that large group is online all the time and plays together often enough to build up a skill at working together. Having a small group that's well coordinated is trivial. Having a huge group of 50+ or MORE is insanely difficult. That's why Star Citizen isn't seeing large 40+ man groups taking over a server, it takes coordination, people management, and more than that, pilot skill to not accidentally AWOX your buddies. That's why a game like EVE Online has such gigantic groups...because skill is trivialized by that game.
All you have to do not to die is to have your broadcast window open, and to broadcast for reps from your 20+ logis in the fleet of 259 people, and if you're fit right, you will not die unless there's so much alpha on the other side of the field that you just instapop. In that game, numbers will always beat skill. In SC, you cannot, CAN NOT coordinate that many people to hit the SAME TARGET at the exact same instant. Its not possible. The game itself prevents that. Master Modes counters that kind of blob warfare even harder.
Also SC lacks tools such as waypoints and such. I'd like to see more options given to commanders to better organize. Waypoints, player sorting, color coding, etc. Would be nice.
As an EvE FC it's a PITA just to get 1000+ people to even do the bare minimum of shutting up on comms and clicking a name in a list and then the kill-it button sometimes lol. Manual pilot skill dogfights would be impossible in SC in eve scales because we have collision damage and friendly fire unlike in eve mostly. There is also no GPU that could render that many SC ships in a fight with playable fps.
Oh I have no illusion that it will ever each EVE scale. Maybe PlanetSide 2.@@eltreum1
@@BuzzCutPsycho Never played Ps2 but I would guess for SC 20-40 vs 20-40 is going to be a sweet spot for organization if they can get the FPS of servers and clients up to AAA spec.
Yeah. I would like to see 100 at max. 3 digits is important to me baby.
Wtf why cry all? I mean not you but the guys on spectrum, pve and pvp Community. For PvP, they have with master modes more people who are interesst. For PvE we didnt have anymore the 1vs20 thing, where the one guy kill all the other. Win win for all, and it make fun
Because people now are very tribalism focused and it extends to games now too
I LOVE YOU BCP!!!!!!!! :DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD
I love you too, Olive. You're my favorite.
Anybody who is whining about the "numbers game" With MM is delusional, and has probably never been in a real fight. Life isn't an action movie. You can't go storming up on 5 opponents who have as much firepower as you and beat them all with your skills. Even a skilled martial artist agaisnt 3-4 more average opponents is going to be on the losing end more often than not.
So no. A single fighter against 3-4 ships should not be able to win on skill alone. I would even submit that a single light fighter should be at a disadvantage agaisnt a heavy fighter.
Especially if the heavy fighter has a gunner! I agree 100%.
master modes ruins the game. Cig implements it because it can't fix the desync problems at high speeds, so it makes everything slow and front to front. It sucks. 900 years in the future and we fly like a 1945 p40.
But CR wants WW2 in space.
dman your explaination is heavy ( without picture to explain his difficult to understand ) ... First I ll be happy to see the scorpius able to shoot with his turret ( was not the case for me in last session ) ... and his special feature working ( wasn't working too ). I hope also a day they remove this auto aim assist from turret and pilot. Was the first trouble of Hammer Head, the turret can't shoot on a gladius becauqe this shitty auto aim don't shoot where you are aiming. this system shoot all time where the small ship was and never on front of them = easy to approach an Hammer
Head with small ship because the turret doens't work.
And finally the network code is so crap to do PvP ... it's a real joke to work on this way with MM. Kill the game for 90% of people for something doesn't work realy ...
I'm a FPS gamer and StarCitizen is far far away to have a good reactivity, Specialy in FPS. just put two computer and analyse the game when you are moving the delay for the other guy to see it is huge.
But I think we go to direction to a stupid arcade game ... what a joke.
I still believe another company will do it one day ... the Real Space Sim and not a joke like we got today.
SC is for sure far away from being good in a lot of ways but it has the most potential to be good which is why I am here.
Dominating others in an organized group in an MMO can be highly rewarding. The Enclave stands out as the top organization thanks to Buzzcutpsycho's leadership skills, talent, and supportive community. With the implementation of Master Modes, the playing field will be evened out, but many people still prefer an unfair fight. I'm excited about the new combat style that Star Citizen will introduce with Master Modes.
Absolutely! Let's hope that the sick nerds don't influence the game for the worst.
i concur...lets see it, play it .and thusly test it. why so many crying before it is fully implemented? i get giving them feedback, but some of the sweat lords are getting a bit too worked up IMO.
They're being worked up because they fear the change
@@BuzzCutPsycho that is all this game is going to do is change... so much to be implemented, tested, and tweaked.
@@eparock no doubt. And I'm not against it. But I'm losing track of the vision here to be honest. I am not sure what their goals are entirely.
For sure. And that is a good thing imo.@@eparock
thanks for making your videos without tons of rehash
You're welcome. I try to keep things fresh. :)
Good to get rid of the exploits.
I agree. Some people are trying hard to get them back in EPTU though
They learned some unofficial content once and now it's changing, I remember palying games where the official meta changed every month, I don't think it's a big deal, CIG said it was all going to change, people was delusional and called me an ignorant so they can keep staying locked up in their delusions, now the tunnel of their vision is collapsing, I'm still here I told everyone it was not worthy to get into it like crazy hoes, now here they are, hundred or thousands of hours wasted for nothing at all, I understand but they was warned both by CIG and the community.@@BuzzCutPsycho
There is nothing wrong with changing things up and I think it is overall good for the game. People will learn and adapt and probably enjoy it more in the long run.
It's actualy bad, some key devs are leaving the project, they added an inside idris mission, betraying another promise for a few $ a few visibility, the project is being pathetic, it's like a street hooker too old desesperatly trying to grab 10 bucks.@@BuzzCutPsycho
“Transient minority of turbo nerds“. Quote of the day I completely agree that tri chording is an exploit, and moreover, it goes against physics, as the ships have always had equal thrust in all axes. Even before Master Modes was introduced they discussed changing how ship thrust works.
Hah I'm glad you got a laugh out of it. And yes beyond it being silly it goes against everything normal and understandable.
Good presentation 😊
Thank you 🙂
Great video
Thanks!
Another top notch video. Agreed on every single point. I cannot wait for Master Modes to hit Live.
Thanks man. I think people enjoy this format and am happy to hear you enjoy it. MM is going to be great.
I love master modessss
Me too!
Finally a good Video about this.
Thanks man. All I ask is that people share it around. Love the comments.
All valid points, the formation fighting and coordination has always stuck out in my mind since the vision is for an older fighter sim set in space. From what I have seen, most of the PVP whiners are a super minority, they're only able to have interactions with people by being McDojos for new players. Like you said, good pilots won't have an issue transitioning to MM, the whiners are whining about something else, and I think its the McDojo atmosphere they have built.
The space bushido code they have created is pretty cringe
aslong they dont hire wrel i will sleep well
Hopefully that dummy stays out of the industry forever. Took a bad game and made it even worse. What a moron.
@@BuzzCutPsycho the damage he did is irreversible . Killed a legacy of a game
@@0BLACKESTFUN0 i would say the poor foundation was set by John Smedley and SOE long before he was involved. He just took their bad ideas and amplified them. I was in a Mandalore Gaming video about PS2 where I said my part.
@@BuzzCutPsycho Was always hyped after the end of ps1 to see it again but ye they rushed it and tried to compete with battlefield it seems. I still think Matt Higby was the only one trying to do a great job with the shift of gameplay but also Jhon had in the beginning very good ideas wich they never ralized , like being able as squad leader buff your teammates etc. (squad gameplay in general).
@@0BLACKESTFUN0 I was told by former devs that John Smedley hated PlanetSide 1 and viewed it as a failure to be ignored. All good ideas it had were disregarded. They started to back peddle on it much later and introduced systems like lattice but it was too late.
PS2 existed because of Smedley and died because of Smedley.
I am already tired of playing it….
So we do NOT need another EVE ONLINE that you have these massive groups of “organized” that you get on to play the game but you just follow orders and jump around for over an hour just trying to out flank other groups just because you have a “leader” telling the mass amount of trigger monkeys at your disposal, what to do.
If that is what YOU and YOUR group want to do that is fine, but you could do that in 3.22 if you wanted, and it takes more skills. Not everyone wants Arcade Citizen
Main reason I quit EVE Online, cannot even go out without a large group of people to protect you
Game you described sounds fun.