Ahoy - Monohulls VS Catamarans
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- Опубліковано 1 лис 2022
- Welcome to this week's Ahoy. Join the two Dicks as they pit monohulls against catamarans, discussing the differences, advantages and disadvantages. If you are new to Ocean Sailor, Ahoy is a series where we answer your burning questions.
Have a question you would like to ask? Write it in the comments or email us at hello@oceansailormagazine.com
For further reading, check out this article:
krakenyachts.com/monohull-vs-...
For all things Blue Water Cruising, check out Ocean Sailor Magazine and the Ocean Sailor Podcast.
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Your story of the couple on the cat says more about them than their boat.
We have the first Valiant 40 made, over its life it has circumnavigated 2 1/2 times, and survived three 360 degree rollovers, one with a broken gooseneck and the last with a broken spreader.
She still has the original rig.
forgive me this question. I did only 5 days of competent crew training. what did happen to make your boat rollover? was that a combination of bad luck, sea state and sailing mistakes? 3 times - are you so unlucky or that is what all sailors must be prepared for?
Kraken's return point is about 140 degrees - not 180. does it mean death of the boat goes say 170 degrees?
The rollovers were before my time. The first was in the 82 OSTAR race, a single handed round the world race. The boat was caught in a storm in the Aguilas Current, off the east coast of South Africa, rolled in beam seas with sails up (racing), broke a gooseneck fitting. Sailed back to South Africa and repaired the boom, went on to complete the race. The repaired gooseneck is still on the boat.
The other two were with another owner, boat lying ahull in a storm south of New Caledonia with owner, wife and two boys aboard, all down below and the hatches closed. Did two 360 degree rolls in one day, they abandoned the boat and were rescued by a passing freighter. The boat was afloat, salvaged by the French Navy, and towed into New Caledonia with a broken spreader and no electrics.
The boat circumnavigated again with new owners, no issues.
My main point is, the boat did not sink, remained afloat, took care of its crew, and was able to continue despite what many consider disastrous events. I certainly consider it a lucky boat, but in the end luck is a combination of good design, good construction, and good management.
As far as I know, these were 360 degree rollovers…@@LesiavanderWoman
@@paulfitzgerald1466 thanks. interesting story. my first impression was "what a unlucky boat" and now I think "what a lucky boat that saved so many lives!"
I love that these guys look like the stereotypical sailors found in cartoons!
A story about a couple of newbies in a performance cat (pronounced outre-mer as per it's French name) is not really a conclusive argument against Catamarans. I've been cruising around the world since 2012 (when I met Dick in Qld) on three different cats and can dig up similar stories about newbies on monohulls. I've seen all the stories about Chris White and other go fast cats flipping as they are designed with slender hulls and daggerboards making them very flighty in big seas. The more common (and slower) production cats have much more bouyancy and minikeels - but like all cats good seamanship requires you to reef early and maintain a reasonable level of safety. Many more monohulls have lost their keels than cats have flipped over -and I know Kracken have addressed this , but I just put this out there to show you that you can't generalise about Catamarans just like you can't generalise about Monohulls.
There are obviously tons of Monohauls which aren't blue water cruisers either. And Dick is obviously talking about those which are. The point is there are no Catamarans well suited for blue water cruising.
I have heard couples on expensive cats talking about the bathrroms and bedrooms they have...and the kitchen.
They then take off on their floating condo, with the only fit person onboard being the husband...what could possibly go wrong? They did not have a dream- they had a fantasy.
My 8.5m cat is 5.4m wide!
I understand that a wave needs to be about 3x the beam before they are likely to capsize.
Most current performance catamarans are less than 50% beam to length.
My catamaran is a Woods design. Richard Woods abandoned one of his 40’ cruising cats in a F11, due to concerns on crew safety. Some months later she was spotted in the middle of the pacific, happily floating along, sails shredded.
As you no doubt know Dick(s), Steve Dashew has always contended that on an ocean voyage his bigger monohulls (like Intermezzo II and the Deerfoots) will almost always make a faster passage than a big cat, especially in the trades. What most people don't realize is that Steve and Linda were notable catamaran racers (as in national champions) before they ventured offshore and developed their monohulls. If you read their books, there are countless accounts of 240 mile and greater days, all the while in fairly relaxed mode with their two daughters aboard. I would love to watch a videio of Dick evaluating how his design, outfitting, and sailing concepts embodied by Kraken yachts conform with and depart from the Dashew's. How much of your approach is a product of their experiences and writing?
I have a Sundeer 60. We go faster than most cruising cats. A well sailed performance cat like an outremer 55 will be faster than us, but not many are that well sailed.
Krakens are not similar at all to the Dashew boats. Much much heavier, shorter waterlines, beamier, much higher loads, horrible skeg rudders. Not what I want. At all. I am very happy with the Sundeer.
@@deerfootnz Apples and Oranges. But like what you like. 👍
Please tell me the name of the books
After every ocean passage I would ask all skippers around: What's your passage planning speed? Invariably 5-7 knots. No matter the boat, no matter the design. Small boats might work harder, but sail handling is easier. Big boats with short crew would cruise along under easy to manage rigs. Cats at speed felt too much bridge deck slap, and would slow down. Passage speeds seemed more correlated to good weather routing by the skipper/navigator, and sailing experience, than boat design.
bravo, you hit the nail square on.
The bias nail...
I put in a couple of fairly acrid comments earlier, for this video, being a proponent of multihulls......
But i just went back and watched this again and really listened to what you are saying..... And i hav to apologize, cz you are emphatically not slamming catamarans.
You are giving some very good slants to WHY a monohull will be advantageous in certain conditions, and also pointing out a few reasons that are less obvious (until u r out there , freighted down with the proverbial kitchen sink).....
And while I'm STILL in favor of th cat, especially for tropical and semitropical seas, I hav to agree that it just might not be th animal of choice for every occasion.
Online forums r subject to heated debate and even smaller squabbles r all too easily amplified by armchair contenders who love to spout what they never would in person.....
That said, i hope you can see past my over_enthusiastic reflex punches and believe me when i say, "PLEASE make more such vids"
Hi You Dicks,
Another wonderful insight into the world of cruising.
Bomb proof is the ultimate requirement for a good cruising vessel.
Ii find the motion on a catermeran s too bobby for me where as the motion on a kealer is so smooth and flowing.
Great insight and logical thinking. Give me safety over palatial space any time.
Monohull builder prefers monohulls - shocker! :)
Blue water builder chose to build monohulls - shocker! :)
@@KrakenYachts Inviting a blue water builder that chose to build catamarans would have made it a little more balanced.
@@tcurdt name one
@@smulismuli7976 You want me to name a builder of blue water catamarans?
@@tcurdt yes because there is NONE
Thanks Dick, I completely agree. It’s all about the journey, not the destination. Unfortunately the world is filled with destinationers, more the pity. I have sailed for 75 years and am still at it. Sailed a dozen cats on passages never a rewarding experience. Of course if you want tons of eye candy aboard, and drink like a fish day and night,
then please use your unstable platform to exit our anchorage as quickly as possible.
I'm not an experienced sailor but for me you miss the romance of sailing if your on a catamaran.
Romance is as highly subjective a term as there is, so I'll leave it alone.
To me, it's simply a matter of right tool for the job. There are different monos for different jobs and different cats for the same, but, as the Dicks say, no matter what cat you pick, it will never have the absolute security of being able to weather the worst of knockdowns.
Perhaps this is no longer the case, one you reach an immense size, but for anything under, ohh, maybe 100 ft, it does apply.
I also think the same applies to many of the newer production boats which are fantastic island hoppers, but their immense beams, carried all the way aft. They are very stable....til they ain't.
Cats are great if its smooth sailing. Downright scary when it gets bad.
God, I wish dick had a camera when he sailed. I hear his stories and I want to see them. See the Kraken in an actual multi-day passage. Do any UA-camrs daily a kraken ? I would love to see it doing a passage.
I’ve seen a Jenneau 60 sail the Atlantic doing 200 mile days. I e been on a mono hull 52 with a canting keel sailing downwind at 25 knots. Mokos are fast.
I’ve measured the deck plans for cats and found the cockpits and saloons are the same size as a monohull. It surprised me because I thought cats were a perfect fit for a family via size but it’s actually more perception than reality.
I’m convinced in my research a mono is better.
There are a lot of problems in performance cats with the hull cracking etc. the platform being so wide it takes a lot of forces to the hulls when the monohull will go with the seas not resisting the wawes like a multihull.
Spot on! If you turtle you're xxxx.... another thing is the prices they ask for these things... its just not value for you're money. On the other hand there are a lot of production monohulls I wouldn't dare to do an ocean crossing on.
Excellent and balanced comparison - Thank you....
Balanced? Both Dicks are very monohull centric. Balanced would be to have an experienced world cat skipper there to discuss the points raised.
Having said that. I’m very much in the monohull camp if I ever decide to buy. Mainly because to sail a cat is sailing by numbers. To sail a monohull is to sail by feel.
And when you are solo you can at least feel what’s happening when you’re below deck. Which you can’t do very well on a cat.
This is not a balanced comparison. Its two guys who want to sell their monohulls.
If you wanted to compare monos and cats objectivly, you would explain that those boats are very different, explain the differences and how to deal with those differences.
I think if I am in the open ocean for the first time and waves are 5m and more and its very windy I would be scared up to a point of no return to sailing no matter if that was a monohull or a catamaran. probably a bad example that some couple got scared. did they survive? if yes then their cat was capable.
I don't have money for my boat yet. just enjoying UA-cam so far.
To prevent a multihull from being knocked flat, surely a sea anchor would be quite effective.
A person shopping for a Kraken would not be also be looking at an Outremer 51. They are two totally different animals.
why not? I don't have money but I look for videos on sailing subject. it took me 2 years to get to this point. and before that it took many month to find about performance catamarans. why so long? I guess how search algorithms work and google promotion works. if we google for a good catamaran google will probably give Lagoon and then UA-cam will give the same. then Bali and Co. I even visited Southampton boat show and didn't see cats with daggerboards. in another video I just watched Dick told that he couldn't advertise his boats in existing magazines and educate people how strong keels are important because these magazines live on ads from manufactures that produce bots with twin keels and other non safe features. so there is no place to find the truth.
I am telling all this to highlight that is in difficult to do a research for what I want. a week about I wanted HH catamaran, today morning I wanted Gunboat catamaran, now I want best strongest monohull. I would dit to a category of a client who looks to both Kraken and a cat just because I don't know what to want.
The biggest issue with cats is that the wrong people sail them. Often they are owned by inexperienced sailors with less ability, when in truth they are more technical and demanding to sail, requiring more ability.
That's precisely the point. The skipper breaks before a good boat does. A sea kindly monohaul will make you faster by virtue of making your crossing more comfortable.
What would your thoughts be in regards to a trimaran for this discussion?
Even worse than a Cat.
@@TOMVUTHEPIMP not a surprising response, coming from a toxic green sticker
Would there be any value added to this discussion if drogues for catamarans (such as the Jordan Series Drogue) were considered for decreasing the odds of flipping?
Drogues dont prevent flipping at all.
@@TOMVUTHEPIMP yes they do - they slow you down and pin the stern down - so if you bury the bows going down a wave, they don't go as deep as you aren't as fast and the stern has the drogues fighting its motion to pitchpole - these together give way more "time" for the bows to pop back up
have fun telling a rogue wave that @@solaireastora5394
Oh, I should have specified the sea anchor should be mounted on the bows.
How many cats have flipped out of the thousands on the water?
I wish o know that statistics before buying a cat.
@LesiavanderWoman the answer is very very few crusing cats as as far as i am aware. And of those which have flipped the vast majority are either racing cats or performance cats built for speed and are generally the models with dagger boards. As far as I am aware, it would be very difficult to flip a production Cat like a Lagoon, FP, privilege, leopard etc. They are too heavy and do not go fast enough, and have a relatively small sail plan relative to their weight. But I am not saying its impossible, if you throw up your spinnaker in a hurricane or typhoon and the mast and sail doesn't break first, or some freak event who knows.
Regardless of boat, get experience on a few ocean passages before buying a boat and taking off on your own.
I am a unique person where i have owned a trawler, a fast trawler, a heavy full keel mono, and now a trimaran. Out of all, i prefer the trimaran the best. Quite frankly, cats scare the crap out of me. Not for the reasons you mentioned, but how far the ammas are apart. There is just too much flex with the wide bridge decks. Trimarans like mine are much stiffer and not prone to all that flex. And, i still have great performance. What i have found us that i can run reefed in normal conditions, but still make good miles....and i am never close to being overpowered. Tris are also not as weight sensitive. My only complaint initially was the it didnt point as well as my mono, but i added a center board that nets me almost 12 foot draft when its fully deployed. Now, its the best sailing boat i have ever sailed.
I wanted to point out something the kracken guy said about multihulls going over. They can, but its rare because most cats are just too underpowered. If the cat does go over, it will float and becomes a liferaft. Bluewater boats are more like to sink than flip, wether its a mono or a cat...losing a throughhull or hitting something. If that happens to a mono, it doesnt float, its going to the bottom while the multihull becomes a liferaft.
Dont get me wrong, i love my mono. Infact, i still own it. It has a kindly sea motion, but its slow. Sailing speed is not about getting between destinations faster, its about being able to outrun trouble if you need too. I can run a consertivive sailplan on my tri, but if the need arises, i can put up more canvas and fly.
A bluewater monohaul boat won't sink if it flips, and it's very hard to make it flip in the first place due to the ballast of the keel. A proper blue water boat will right itself. Otherwise it's not a blue water boat. Also the kindly sea motion is what makes monohauls faster. Because on long crossings the limitation isn't the boat but you.
what model of trimaran do you own?
So what about a trimaran?
Even worse than a cat.
@@TOMVUTHEPIMPtell it to a zillion indopacific people, who routinely sail trimarans without undue events
@rimrunz1795 they don't cross oceans in them dude
You thinking that any large catamaran is "planing" does nothing for your credibility.
Yacht makers talk shit about catamarans would be a better title?
I think this is the most bias opinion I have ever heard. I have yet to see a sunken cat….( I have seen many mono’s)…The ride on a mono in 4 meter waves compared to a cat is night and day! Most people can’t handle 2 meter waves on a mono without getting sea sick.
I tend to agree. To old geezers talking shit hopping, it will sell boats.
Let's have a writeup on the "various experiences" of monohull sailors. I've watched tons of sailing videos and the monohull sailors are always complaining, cat sailors much less so, even about perceived dangers, as opposed to comfort. A catamaran can be made very safe and nearly impossible to capsize, with a little sacrifice in space and performance, but still maintaining the positive attributes of a catamaran. You fail to talk about the main reason people die while sailing, going overboard. This is obviously much more likely on a monohull. Then there is the whole sinking thing. A monohull must be bulletproof and positively buoyant to avoid the not unlikely event of capsizing and possible sinking. It's pretty obvious when you picture a cat and monohull in your mind beam on in breaking waves which one is way more likely to capsize. This video is a scare tactic. What you really want is a well designed and constructed boat, whether it be a mono or cat.
Catamarans are safer, more stable, more comfortable and faster. But, for the price of a kraken 50 you can get a top notch monohull as opposed to a questionable quality catamaran. So unless i had over $2 mil to buy a good quality catamaran i would probably go for a kraken.
Safer???? You’re probably a Mediterranean sailor….
@cesc1495 😂 You stereotype much? Kraken, based in Turkey, is appealing to mediterranean sailors. As for cats, their wide and steady platform makes it far less likely that a child or anyone else for that matter will fall overboard. They provide more comfort during passage, which means more rested crew. They have two hulls which means more redundancy (e.g
Two engines). Yes, they are more likely than monos to capsize but far less likely to sink. So unless you're planning to cross the Drake or do a Northwest passage (which I wouldn't do in a Kraken anyway) spare me. Cats circumnavigate the world all the time. I personally prefer monos for the way they feel but that's a different story.
@cesc1495 btw, the reason I would go for a mono these days is precisely because many of the new monos have adopted some of the multihull features: Dual rudders (adds redundancy and better handling), centerboards (reduces draft so you can find refuge in shallow waters during a bad storm or, for some, even beach it), more beam (wider deck which makes it safer to move forward and aft). Kinda best of both worlds. But Kraken lacks most of these features.
If a cat goes over it goes over.
If a mono is holed it goes down.
Simple choice?
How about the fact that cats are ugly.
Damn ugly! Two hulls with a house plonked on top of it
thing i dont understand is , why are monohull owners hate multi hull sailors ,, like wtf
...dont need to see this - "if a cat goes over it stays"...yes but it floats (it should be - and could be rescued) - if a mono is hulled -it sinks - and stay at the bottom of the ocean... forever...
You thinking that any large catamaran is "planing" does nothing for your credibility.