Star Wars Music is Getting Worse - Beyond The Last Jedi & John Williams - A Music Philosophy Review
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- Опубліковано 21 лис 2024
- The Last Jedi soundtrack was pretty underwhelming. Why is this? In this video, I introduce the concept of reification and use it to assess the entire Star Wars canon (as of early 2018). Why is the music of The Last Jedi so less impactful than the music of the original Star Wars Movies? What is being lost?
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/ tantacrul
Helpful Reification Links:
Introductory:
Reification, Music and Problems of Modern Philosophy - Jonathan Lewis, 2014
pure.royalholl...
Adorno: A Critical Introduction - Simon Jarvis, 1998
www.amazon.co....
Advanced:
History & Class Consciousness, Georg Lukacs, 1923
www.marxists.o...
Dialectic of Enlightenment - Adorno, Theodor, 1944
www.amazon.co....
Philosophy of Modern Music - Adorno, Theodor, 1949
www.amazon.co....
Some of the animations used to describe reification came from this excellent video: • Plato’s Allegory of th...
![Shostakovich - How to Compose Music Despite [ R E D A C T E D ]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/MCxzMYVvHBg/mqdefault.jpg)
![Shostakovich - How to Compose Music Despite [ R E D A C T E D ]](/img/tr.png)
Incidentally, for any people interested. I edited this while in Ireland over the Christmas holidays. Towards the end, just as I was tidying up the last pieces of footage, two disasters struck. 1: Dropbox had stopped syncing my folders, without me realising and 2: my laptop broke. As a result, I lost nearly everything, including the majority of all the video clips I'd spent weeks compiling. So this edit you're looking at is a recreation of the original. Yes.... I had to make this whole thing twice.
Tantacrul It's wonderful video!
Be advised:
There's an incorrectly spelled word in the video description(it starts with a "c").
Oof, I can feel the hurt in that one
You didn't need to keep saying "Don't worry Star Wars is almost here". I was interested enough in what you were saying that I actually got a little annoyed everytime you said "Star Wars is coming".
so.....you're criticizing John Williams?
How many film compositions have you written?
@@nathanexplosionn You don't need to be a chef to judge a dish.
And they don't even necessarily need to throw out those older themes completely. They could be very powerful if used sparingly for important moments that genuinely call for it.
For example, in Anakin's theme from the prequels, the Imperial March theme that becomes associated with him as Vader appears briefly in a simultaneously innocuous coda and chilling foreshadow.
I half agree with the critic in the video. Yes, Star Wars needs to go in new directions. But the idea that Williams or his successor needs to abandon Leitmotif is like saying Wagner needs to abandon Leitmotif. The biggest problems of originality in the Disney Star Wars movies haven't been in the music, and Rogue One - which the critic seems to hate - was simultaneously the most daring Star Wars movie and the one that most felt like it lived in the Star Wars universe. It wasn't a perfect movie, but it was much better than the sequel trilogy in every aspect.
@@celebrim1 the critique is focused around the music, because that's his background. The video is a critique on the use of music in the new star wars films
One thing that the UA-cam channel Sideways pointed out is that the leitmotifs of the older films are kinda falling apart, the Force theme was originally Obi-Wan's theme and that kind of transformation is lacking. Where in that instance the theme transformed from a character to an idea many of the musical moments in the newer films act as purely reference.
I actually thought Solo used leitmotifs pretty well, especially if you've watched "that scene". Han and Qira's theme shows the two-sidedness of their relationship beautifully in my opinion. This video critiqued it using leitmotifs, but never actually gave any examples from the movie.
@@isaacb77 This video came out before Solo did
"If you steal from one source its plagiarism, if you steal from a lot of sources its research" - George R R Martin
@farenheit041 It's called postmodernism. Ideas like "bEaUtY iS iN tEh eYe Of TeH bEhOlDeR" and blindly saying "oUt WiTh TeH oLd AnD iN wItH tEh NeW" are its main philosophy. Kylo Ren's line, "Let the past die; kill it if you have to" is the most postmodern idea I have ever heard. It's just change for change's sake; a complete abandonment of tradition.
@@chelonianegghead274 I mean, kylo ren is saying "let the past die" in a series called star WARs, where in the lore there has been nonstop wild fighting and wars for thousands of years, so I can't really blame him for that conclusion considering that.
Christopher Rapczynski hmmmm kinda sounds like real life! Minus the west post WWII and all of history is pretty much nonstop war
@@chelonianegghead274 then again, "tradition" is literally "lets keep the old ways just because we have always been doing it like that"
@@7991612 Actually, it's more like "let's stick with what's been working". I'm not against change, but change just for change's sake is a recipe for disaster.
I agree with this but I feel the blame should be placed upon a studio that requires a similar experience as to before in order to make profit. This results on harsh guidelines for the composer. Just blame the system for what it is and not the I individuals whom have showed much greater development in other works. Producers who want the same are to blame.
Another reason that the “Force Theme” lost most of it’s strength is due to how often it was used. It’s like if you ate your favorite food for every meal, it would loose all what made it special.
5Gonza5
Maybe for you. Maybe for many.
Not for me.
the sequels have a lack of creativity so nothing exceptional is made
you can say anything about the prequels, but they're original, push boundaries and the good moments are exceptional
ua-cam.com/video/fra4RvZ1CKQ/v-deo.html the force theme at the end is really powerful here and still gives me goosebumps
Reek
I disagree with your opinion concerning the lack of creativity. Sequel trilogy, to me, have everything you think they lack. The dreadnought attack for instance.
@@houseoftoussaint9609 the dreadnought attack was very amateurish
Kylo Ren's theme, sing it with me: "Here comes... the bad, guy."
You're so right!
@@GimmickBox39 he means it's a little simple, like what you do in GCSE music where they ask you to write a bad guy theme
But... Vader theme isnt here comes the bad guy?? Or Darth Sidious?? Or General Grievous for crying out loud?
@@GimmickBox39 I think he means the melody of it literally fits the line, just 5 notes for 5 syllables
Duh.
"Future composers need to do away with leitmotifs."
Somewhere, Sideways is frothing at the mouth.
who dat
zevex747 search why giving Harry Potter the map of mischief was the best scene musically
Exactly my first thought!
zevex747 Sideways is a channel that breaks down a lot of leitmotifs in movies and other things, but mostly movies. He’s awesome too.
Or use it like John Powell does
Like he did, in the httyd trio
I think Williams is struggling with the material he's given to work with on the sequel trilogy as well.
Uninspired art rarely inspires another artist.
I would NOT remove the title crawl on the saga films though, ever.
Funny enough, his best sequel track imo, Rey's Theme, was based not on the character, but an image of the character. Stills have more influence than their source.
@@noahfessenden6478 WOOOOW. I mean, I know the ST is pretty creatively bankrupt at least so far, but that's sad. Funny enough as well, I use images to inspire a lot of my writing :) so I can understand where JW comes from with that...but wow. It actually is my fave piece of music (just about the only memorable track) from the ST and I will say her character introduction footage does establish her pretty well initially.
@@noahfessenden6478 I think Kylo's theme is the best, one of the best themes ever
the sequels have no heart and are just a money grab by disney and the easiest, most proven way are making nostalgic movies full with action and spectacle
@@darthtroller Kylo's theme is ok, and Kylo himself is good, but the sequels as a whole suck
”This is a technique called incompetence” 😂 comedy gold right there
I nearly spat out my drink... brilliant.
Had a good laugh at that part
Is it comedy when saying something.
@@Naxt366 Comedy is when you like your own comment for the sake of unearned agreement.
@@SoggyMicrowaveNugget Says the person passing off mass produced and poorly ventilated supermarket ready meals as authentic Pollo Lemomi Sicilianu. Point is, build it and they will come, it in this case being the whole rotten incentive structure that is destroying worldwide civilisation and they being people like Snyder.
23:19 NOOO!!!
Leitmotif can still be a very powerful tool, if used properly. You just demonstrated this with Luke's theme (force theme) in A New Hope. The same exact melody was reused, but John Williams evolved it throughout the film, using its familiarity as a foundation to add new meaning on top of. It gained layers of nuance and subtlety each time it was reinterpreted for a new context. The theme's familiarity allowed those layers of nuance to take hold because, being an evolution of an earlier theme, it could call back to a previous scene. It's almost like Williams was using it to say, "Hey, remember that scene when Luke dreamed of being free from his aunt and uncle? Well that was just achieved, but in the worst way possible." It also gave the audience a direct comparison of the two emotional contexts, making it easier to spot and understand the nuanced differences. The same is true the third time around in the famous "Use the Force, Luke" scene. This just doesn't work as well with an entirely new piece of music.
The new films weren't bad because they reused the same theme over and over again. They were bad because they didn't do anything NEW with it. It was just the same predictable 'force theme' with no significant modification or development. They just failed to find the appropriate balance between novelty and familiarity, which is something the original trilogy, and even the prequels, excelled at and used to great effect. Every well-established franchise has a particular and recognizable musical 'flavor' and leitmotif is an important part of that. At the same time, music can easily get stale if it lacks development. Composers just need to remember that leitmotif is a tool, not a magic 'silver bullet.' Just like having a hammer doesn't mean every problem is a nail, Leitmotif isn't always the right answer, but it is still useful when the situation warrants it.
You spared me the effort to write my own comment, I completely agree
Agreed. *Krhm* Lord of the Rings.
Thats almost the exact thing he said, only that he didnt say everything word for word but left the last part as it is rather obvious to say "you can still use it well tho!!!!". Which is equivalent to hearing "not every X is Y tho!!!" every goddamn time you mentioned a group of things and want to speak broadly about it.
Actually I think the prequels are a perfect example. There, Williams invents solid new themes, develops and creatively deploys old ones (for instance Augie's Great Municipal Band hiding the emperor's theme). He also adds the set-piece non-leitmotiv tracks like Duel of the Fates as a new concept. He employs both familiarity and novelty and makes a fantastic soundtrack.
Imagine writing an opera, but you just change the lyrics to an existing classic.
You didn't write an opera.
"Horns blasting all the time."
God that's what irritated me about the new Jurassic World movies, instead of it being a crescendo that ends up being the narrative of what you see, it's turned into this overwhelming blare of violins and horns telling you "DO YOU REMEMBER THAT BRACHIOSAURUS SCENE FROM THE FIRST MOVIE?! YEAH YOU SHOULD FEEL THAT."
And especially the trailers, ugh, they took the entire phrase of the theme and blasted it to your face in 3 notes, all in this tonally dissonant state. HEY THIS IS SPOOKY
It just hurts my ears
Dam.
Nice tiz arrior profile. I always have warm feeling when I see another bravely default fan on the internet :)
To me it’s like a parrot screaming, but he movie should have done that intentionally instead of being idiotic.
When I walked out of "The Force Awakens", my first reaction was that it was a shame that they didn't use John Williams for the score. I was *shocked* to find out that it was Williams work. It was so devoid of his usual creativity that I was convinced it wasn't him.
Rey's theme? The Scavenger? The Resistance theme?
@@LevelingTo100 I literally (not figuratively or virtually but quite literally) can't remember the score for the new movies aside from a few bits from the trailers.
I got massive hate for saying that back then.
@@LevelingTo100 All terrible.
You people also forget how many years the old movies had to establish their soundtrack in retrospect. No new movie's soundtrack, star wars or not, is going to be as memorable, or etched in your brain the same way a "classic" movie's that came out decades ago would be. It's an impossible standard to live up to, especially if you consider how most people experienced star wars for their first time, being "cool old space movie" compared to the vastly different "fresh new released sequel" reality of now.
"overall, the themes in the force awakens feel like a bargain bin version of the originals" well in that case john williams did his job perfectly, because thats what the entire movie is.
Your not wrong.
In hind sight, I think the sequel trilogy died the moment they revealed Star killer base, to me it just jumped the shark in terms of logic.
How the hell was this tiny insignificant Insurgency group in the fringes of the galaxy able to get the resources necessary to build that monstrosity without alerting the republic?
It would be like ISIS successfully building a long-range nuclear missile without the US detecting it.
@@Kaiserboo1871 I felt similarly but for different reasons - not in-universe believability, but showing that the new trilogy was simply not prepared to take risks, would undermine other aspects of its worldbuilding for the sake of plotline familiarity, and cared more about spectacle than narrative cohesion.
@@kaitlyn__L Absolutely.
They went at it with the wrong mindset.
Star Wars is not James Cameron's Avatar. It can’t get by on mediocre store telling and amazing visuals, quiet the opposite in fact.
fillum
My thoughts exactly. :)
try phillum pronounce the P, thats how my grandma said it.
van ome Willem
AKA the CORRECT way to pronounce it
LOL!
I think leitmotifs can definitely be overdone and predictable, but they can be very cool when they're employed in more subtle ways (rather than just playing the same theme everytime the villain shows up, etc.)
Found the sideways fan
Leitmotifs are fantastic, but they're useless without well-articulated characters and stories with thematic depth.
Calling leitmotif overdone in music is like calling red overdone in painting. Its uses are too broad and undefined, and it really doesn't limit creativity much at all. I can understand being annoyed when a specific theme is used simply because "the other thing did it," but an entire technique, especially one so widely used in film music, and where NOT using it would arguably be the more limiting option? It seems like bias speaking.
I think a comparison could be made to painting as well. I just so happen to remember a similar critique of an artwork that lacked focus due to it's flat, repetitive use of red. Red is a very important color, but using it foreground, background, everywhere can drown out the picture and take away focus from it's subject. Same can be said for disney's chronic dependance on old content instead of making something fresh for once.
Trailer music is almost never done by the film's composer. Trailers are edited by a trailer house, in which they will source scores or even remake scores specifically for that trailer. Most times they create an "epic" version with loads more orchestral stuff going on to give the illusion this is big, grand, and epic. These scores are usually done ion the computer with digital instruments or editing the original scores.
At the end of the day who was responsible doesn't really matter unless the object of the exercise is to pass moral judgement on them. The extremely reified nature of Star Wars content™ produced the boring and unproductive music of both the trailer and the film itself. And that reification is the result of a whole set of factors as the video alludes to by referencing Adorno. What is interesting, at least to me, is how the music became so uninteresting, not which individuals we can blame for it.
@@jimcrelm9478 it wasn't exactly to excuse it, but to steer the criticism in the right direction with more understanding of who, what, and why the trailer was done the way it was. Talking about how it's used in the film (which isn't the trailer music) is a completely different thread itself, which is why I didn't comment on the film, but only the trailer.
The single largest creative influence on the new Star Wars movies is other Star Wars movies. Gone are they days when they were distilled from samurai films, newsreel footage, car culture, suburban teen angst, and personal expression.
@Bringer of Death Star Wars is dead. The Sith won.
In that case, in an ideal world, Quentin Tarantino would've the best person to helm the Sequel Trilogy.
Well said episodenull
It's the issue with all sequels/prequels in general. They just keep drinking from the same pool until there's nothing left.
Kevin Cobb
TFA comes out: “Waah they’re just copying A New Hope there’s no originality”
TLJ comes out: “Waah they did some unpredictable things they killed Star Wars why couldn’t it be like the other movies”
“I promise Star Wars is almost here” - yeah Disney has been saying that since 2017 and I am still waiting.
People said Star Wars came back in 2015 but I've yet to see any evidence of that.
So true. So very, very true.
@@rhettorical no, they brought it back. They dug up the corpse of Star Wars, made it dance, and put a tiny bit of makeup on it. Isn't that what you wanted? 😂
I think you are completely wrong about leitmotifs, your critisim was pretty much that the themes weren't good..not that they were leitmotifs.
Where I think you are correct is that the familiar themes had played out their roles, and that they weren't used correctly. For instance, the "force theme" was actually more of a "Luke's theme", as you pointed out. That's not the same as the music idea of leitmotifs is wrong.
Leitmotifs built up as a structure to give familiarity, done as a framework with the same musical idea to express sadness, epicness, heroism, fear etc. for some character is pretty much unbeatable.
"Inside the score" here on youtube explains this better than I ever could.
There are GOLD soundtracks in most movies. What makes movies and movie series themes stand out in this oversaturated market is leitmotifs.
/Leitmotifnazi out
MANDELAZZA In the liner notes on the original double LP Star Wars Soundtrack Williams points out that the Force theme and Luke’s theme are one and the same.
This.
Also, you have to remember that leitmotifs have to portray the character while also fitting the
cinematic setting that the character currently inhabits - Rey's theme on its own may seem like it doesn't quite fit her character (an argument pointed out in the video, not that I agree with it) - but it was also designed to play in the scene where we see her in the desert alone for the first time, and it fits that moment perfectly. Its the MELODY that fits Rey, not just the instruments... And this is absolutely clear as the film's go on - the same melody brought with more power! Also, how seamlessly they fit with other themes, hinting at potential connections between characters!
One last thing - commenting on the use of the force theme when Bail Organa walks in (Rogue One) really grinds my gears... Its not just an abstract musical reference - it's hinting at DESTINY. These are the actions that spark episode 4! This man is about to call upon the princess who will push us into the wild ride that is STAR WARS. Not just a man entering a room... But to quote a terrible line from a bad movie, the spark that'll light the flame that'll ignite the entire saga!
As a banjo player I really hate people constantly making fun of my instrument. The banjo can be a really sad and daunting instrument connected with dark and interesting themes.
Same can be said with accordions.
Or you can go to Brazil, where the banjo is a staple of samba and choro... and accordion is a staple of baião and forró.
Bagpipes are one of my favorite instruments because as Scottish as they are, they also give a sense to power and can also bring forth tons of emotions.
I like Banjos too as well as Accordions. Especially after Kass from Legend of Zelda where he uses his accordion to tell his emotions as well as help you out in puzzle solving. He plays it tragically but also peacefully. When you go to the stables and hear Kass's accordion play Epona's theme, you get a sense that you're in a nice place of peace and relaxation. It's not just for shanties and Weird Al (though he plays Accordion fantastically), it's for story telling and driving a story too.
I know banjos can be the same way. They're just another form of guitar. Their pluckiness can be optimistic and sometimes tragic.
I feel the banjo is being seen increasingly seriously, due to the general rising popularity of folk and bluegrass type music
Trianglists unite!
I make fun of that instrument for it's simplicity, but can absolutely do nice things if used well. Every instrument can. That flute you played in Kindergarten? Yes.
I'm no music expert at all, and may not pay much attention to what more knowledgable people focus on, but I managed to find stuff I like taht I'm pretty sure is using a Glockenspiel. Which I associate with music class at school and simplicity, it was never really in the cool kids club as far as musical instruments go in my experience.
Idk if you still check comments from 2 year old videos, but i wanted to say this actually helped me a lot. i'm writing a little album for a project of mine and it was starting to become nothing but lietmotifs. If i hadnt watched this i might still be doing that
What did u replace the motifs with?
@@LolLol-ok4lr depending on the specific song, something entirely original, or pieces that I envision a specific scene while making rather than a character. Although I’m breaking the rules by scoring an animated scene that doesn’t exist
commenting on a two year old comment about a five year old video that was two years old at the time
@@tsudough my numbers don't make sense with that one, but maybe you are using different ones
Say what you want about the Prequels, but the music was excellent. The Sequel Trilogy music is basically Williams phoning it in.
I've never watched the prequels again, but I listen to the soundtracks of those films quite often. Fully agree with you there.
Williams still produced better music than the films deserved/needed. The reverse has NEVER been the case. Let that one sink in.
In defense of Williams, as Tantacrul said, he's used to telling the story through his music. He can't do that with the rehashes, because they don't have a story. They're just a bunch of "remember that?" moments strung together. So of course the best Willams can do is string together a bunch of leitmotiffs for characters and events.
@@Verebazs You also have to keep in mind that Disney gives the yay or nay toward the music he writes for the new Star Wars movies. He very well could have written some really cool and original music, but Disney felt it wasn't safe enough to use. Not saying that's what happened, just that it's a possibility. George Lucas, through all of his faults, wanted to do something different with Star Wars when he made the prequel, which would explain why we had something different with Duel of the Fates (easily one of the most badass pieces of music in my opinion). The movies may not have hit, but the music sure as hell did.
Its actually hilarious to me as the years go on, it seems like the prequels become less the most hated thing with star wars fans.
18:03 whoa there, it's a pretty big (and subjective) leap to claim that Williams was afraid of creating new music. First off, that whole duel of the fates theme is new which is contrary to your premise. Second, the film features a lot of moments that do present the duel of the fates without choir and it works fantastically. Williams' role is to provide the film with a coherent musical tone and the concern of a full-on choir being a little too operatic and on-the-nose is a totally valid composer's perspective which doesn't have anything to do with fear of being "new".
Additionally, we do know that the recording sessions with Williams are done with the choir live with the orchestra, which means the elements bleed together in the masters. So the suggestion of recording an additional orchestra-only track is just professional forward-thinking from a very experienced composer because it gives everyone the OPTION to use or not use the choir when the music is edited to the picture. That's just a smart, professional suggestion to make, and many takes of songs are recorded with certain elements swapped to other instruments, or changed on the fly, simply to give the music editor more options.
demovidtest agreed
This whole video is a collection of big, subjective leaps. He has an "it is that way because I say so" attitude. Personally, I disagree with almost every word out of his mouth.
Christopher Nuzzi I do agree with his thesis, though. The music in the sequel trilogy is certainly forgettable compared to the original and prequel trilogies. This is especially true of TLJ. Weather Williams is over the hill, is phoning it in, or is being badly directed, doesn’t really matter.
Lets be honest hear, thats more of an indictment of the people producing and directing the movies as a whole, and less to to with the music people directly. After all, at the end of the day, they have the final word on these projects. They are the first and last lines of defense for the project’s quality. If Williams isn’t performing up to snuff, they should have set him straight or gotten someone who could.
The blame for the failure of this project sit firmly on Disney. You’ld have to have a really good argument to convince me otherwise.
@@macmurfy2jka I agree, one of the complaints I had when I saw the first Disney trilogy. Though his harping on leitmotif in movies that are heavily inspired and treated like movie serials is baffling to me.
While I agree with many of your comments, I do believe that 'Rogue One' should be cut a break when it comes to this reification concept. The movie is all about connecting the dots between Ep. 3 & 4, and I think that reusing a number of the classic star wars motifs is a justified part of that. That scene at the end with darth vader. That's MEANT to make you think of 'a new hope', because that movie leads on immediately after this one. You're MEANT to be thinking of the original trilogy when you see the X-Wings. And as for the movie itself, I believe the type of story was very refreshing as far as the hashed-out star wars formula goes. The sequel trilogy had a chance to break new ground though, and it's in this case that I 100% agree with your points.
Rogue One has become on of my favourite SW movies. It just feels right.
I do think musically they could’ve done more, but I agree about the plot (which of course isn’t what this video was about). The wider events weren’t ever in question, so the movie could focus on one small group of people. Focus on how fascism tears families apart even on the “successful” side. Focus on their hopes and dreams for their rebellion.
I didn’t internalise their names but I still think about the blind guy with the staff and the sarcastic freed droid. I loved that the protagonists didn’t make it out alive, either. It’s a story about selfless sacrifice for one small part of a larger whole, without even knowing whether it’d work. In contrast, the mainline movies are all about that larger whole, and almost every character is presented with proof of their actions’ outcomes by the end.
@@kaitlyn__L keep in mind Giacchino had only 4 weeks to write the entire soundtrack, and I honestly really appreciate the new melodic material he came up with, particularly in the (imo, absolutely stunning) 3rd act where the message is sent and Scarif is destroyed
@@expilectakunai that kind of rush explains a lot. No composer should only get a month!
They should have studied undertale in terms of transforming leitmotifs.
Another brilliant moment of music complimenting character?
“I’m a Jedi. I know I’m better than this.”
*Imperial March*
Hot take: ROTS has the best soundtrack
He went "hold my beer" to himself with Battle of Heroes
TPM though. Or is Duel of the Fates cheating?
Yeah, the soundtrack in that movie is absurdly good. Empire still takes it for me, but Revenge really is up there.
The force unleashed did
@@westvirginiaglutenfreepepp7006
Duel Of The Fates might be great, but the score of The Phantom Menace as a whole is underwhelming, and easily my least favourite of the entire saga.
A video about Star Wars, with a brief cameo by Georg Lukacs.
...wait a minute
For some reason I find this comment hysterically funny.
This video was put together very well, but I have to disagree with your conclusion. Leitmotifs keep music across a film saga consistent and memorable to the audience. The Harry Potter Films did exactly what you wanted, getting rid of (most) leitmotifs and having each film (except for the first couple) be new compositional works. As a result, the music deteriorated into unmemorable blandness as new composers came in and out and discarded the musical themes that had come before them. Inside the Score has a great video on this: ua-cam.com/video/8b7-3lOgb24/v-deo.html
Now I do agree that Star Wars rehashes the old themes too many times, but in no way should we discard William's excellent themes that keep movie goers (like me) returning to the theaters. Just use them more sparingly and in more important moments.
Completely agree!
A recent interview with John William ' s son revealed that they are piling on the old themes more than ever before for The Rise of Skywalker. Sigh.
Jamie Braswell That wasn’t his son, that was his brother. Also, that is not intrinsically bad; look at the Lord of the Rings. In and of itself, it has over 100 leitmotifs spread over 12 hours of music. Even in the piece “The Uruk-Hai”, 5 leitmotifs are quoted in just 2:59 of music, and there are not many people who would dispute that those films’ score are a masterpiece. So, many motifs applied appropriately can be hugely beneficial and give the film a rich motivic identity - I wouldn’t be so hasty to assume the worst, especially considering this is John Williams we’re talking about.
Damn right! I would also like to point out that a composer's job is to follow the director. If they continue using the same motifs it's surely not because Williams has no more new ideas lol.. it's because it's the director's wish to do so
This comment is PERFECTION.
My thoughts EXACTLY in a more well said way. LOL
"This is a technique called... Incompetence." Forgive me, but I'm gonna have to steal this and add it to my standard verbal repertoire.
Was I wrong in thinking he was applying this to John Williams?
It was this point where I thought "put up or shut up" and was very disappointed because I watched The Piano Trio next.
@@NathanEllery ...no? It was applied to Snyder, long before Williams was even mentioned.
Well, the "force" theme is actually Luke's _secondary leitmotif,_ although it was originally intended to be Obi-Wan's. The main theme was Luke's primary. It's just had its meaning overwritten, much as Luke's character was overwritten in these sequel films.
I agree that the Force Theme is obscenely overused, but I adore leitmotifs. I think (if used correctly) they can elicit the perfect thought and emotion for the moment. I do believe in the Star Wars sequels the Force Theme is complete fanservice (for the most part). Interestingly, you rag on Rey's Theme for being a Harry Potter reject and not something that feels like Star Wars, but didn't you say that Star Wars should take chances and makes changes to try to be original and different? So Williams wrote a theme to be driving-but-delicate (to represent the different facets of, Rey's personality) but you say it's bad because it didn't sound like something out of Star Wars (something familiar/possibly reference)? It's new. It's original. Sure, it's not as complex as 'Luke and Leia', as sweeping as 'Across the Stars', or as "catchy" as the 'Imperial March,' but it's still decently memorable and it's still very pretty. And it does it's job. Having her theme be a leitmotif instead being fully thematic, lends to modern film making's way of faster editing. Plus, you can stick the theme into many situations without having to commit to trying to develop it each time you use it.
Interesting video on the whole, but I think your general point was muddled down by a little contradiction. Maybe personal bias?
I mostly agree with Tantacrul overall, but I think he's totally off when it regards Rey's theme. Not to mention, the Music is probably the best part of the Sequel Trilogy. If the rest of the movie was as good as the music, you'd not even notice.
I completely disagree with you about the opening credits of Star Wars. This was done on purpose to compliment the episodic nature of the old serials that Star Wars harkens back to. It is no different than a TV show having the same opening theme. As long as it is an episode of the saga, it is going to be the same.
Yeah, if the new trilogy was of artistic quality, who cares about the opening anyways?
Different people are making Star Wars movies now, people who find inspiration from other sources. They shouldn’t have to copy George Lucas and put a title crawl in the beginning of the film if they don’t want to. If they aren’t taking inspiration from old film serials like George was, why carry on the title crawl thing? It’s getting old. At this point, the entire Star Wars series feels like a boring old tradition. Same beat, different drum. We need a new beat.
@@precoius All main films should have the crawl. Nothing else.
The point of the title crawl was to originally put a bit of context because the concept of these movies was so utterly bizarre and alien to people in the 70s/80s (to see a giant roaring carpet, a british robot and a beeping trash can rolling around, space monks with laser swords, all hunted down by a villain in a mask with a bad case of asthma) that it was necessary to invite people in this new world. My guess is, as the first one was so massively popular, GL just went "welp, might as well keep the title crawl for the whole trilogy to keep people up to date as to what they missed". But now, everyone knows about this universe, there's no ridiculous/bizarre aspects to it anymore. Everyone knows how that world works. I'm with him on letting go of the title crawl because we no longer NEED context to watch a SW movie, I would rather have the pleasure of feeling intrigued and questioning myself on what I'm seeing at the beginning of the movie, to try and figure out who am I seeing and what is going on than have it all pre-chewed/dumbed-down for me. That's even one of the core aspects of what makes a movie good or bad: if the viewer doesn't feel compelled or engaged to do a bit of thinking and figure things out on his/her own, but only watches passively without any effort, it's not quality art, there's no intellect to the experience, no feelings of reward from putting your brain to work. Think of the best movies of the decade: Parasite does its exposure subtly during the movie, Ex Machina does the same, Arrival lets you question everything until the very end. Sure, there are movies that are designed for you to shut your brains off after work and just feel cheap/easy emotions, but those are generally the kinds of movies you forget about the next day and never watch again. Star Wars has never been that, it let its mark on many generations of people and created a cult because it was never that kind of movie...until now. For the first time in my life, I no longer think about Star Wars, it doesn't excite me anymore and I didn't even go watch The Rise of Skywalker because it's no longer a rewarding experience. It's just a Star Wars skin on the other bad movies spoiling modern cinema (Transformers, Pixels, the Emoji movies, etc.)
Stars Wars then: a passionate space opera who borrowed from all over the place to create a pop culture epic.
Star Wars now: hey remember when we did that cool thing like 20 years ago? Wanna see me do it again for like the seventh time?
While being uber woke
You could say “Star Wars episodes VII, VIII, IX” borrowed from earlier films in the same franchise.
This is an excellent video. The introduction reification is excellently.
I mean, eh, when was the last time you actually watched the originals? A New hope was already generic when it came out, Empire strikes back has a lot of wasted time and the cringy Leia and Han solo romance, Return of the jedi has an awful start, wookies and
Darth Sidious is more ridiculous than menacing.
@@legrandliseurtri7495 its enjoyable because even if its campy, it feels genuine and passionate. Nowadays its all the same boring and dumb beats of the ogs but without any of the charm that made them watchable. It may not be a great experience, but it was a genuine experience
@@thehermit8618 I guess I can accept that.
This is a technique called: INCOMPETENCE
I've noticed this phenomenon and got shot down by fans...
This is a technique called: COMPETENCE!
Is it possible to learn this power? 😈
TheTwilitHero Not from the people behind Disney Star Wars.
John Williams is hardly incompetent
The problem is the way the movies are shot. There really is no place for music in the new movies. It used to be a great part of the movie, almost a character in itself. Now the scenes are too fast paced and there is not time for the music to fully develop.
Exactly. There is little opportunity for musical thematic development in film today. The edits are generally so quick there's no room to stretch out musically. Compare vs. e.g. Star Trek: The Motion Picture where Goldstein was given multiple scenes where the music carried it and could develop. No way any major movie studio would allow that today.
Rogue One handled this well, and actually ended up giving us multiple memorable tracks. "Hope," "The Imperial Suite," and "Your father would be proud" to name a few.
@@kochmusicproductions3585 *Goldsmith. Agree with everything else (in general, notwithstanding a few exceptions which are unfortunately too few).
Agree. Great example. The Jawa sequence with R2. It was a few minutes where some really memorable and interesting music was used to fill the lack of anything really going on.
So accurate. Listen the difference between the Imperial March and the March of the Resistance. Both great, but the first one is way more complex since the movie in which it appears knows how to drive the scene.
I think the major issue with star wars which most people seem to miss is that the original movies were not original. You mentioned many of the inspirations in this video. The story is the classical Heroes journey. There really is not a lot of truly original ideas here. The reason why the prequels enjoy cult status, despite having awful dialogue, terrible CGI and some serious pacing issues, is because they were written using the same process. Instead of being inspired by more modern tropes such as the Heroes journey, they were inspired by antique tragedies like the odyssey, mixed with the Roman Empire (a senator who overthrows a republic to build an empire). In a way this makes a lot of sense. You made a trilogy heavily inspired by tropes which originated in medieval Sagas and now you want to create prequels. What came before the medieval times? the Roman Empire.
Which tropes do the modern movies draw from? More Star Wars. Tropes inspired by Tropes. Tropeception. Or they try to be original, which then leads to them not feeling like Star Wars. One Way they could have made the new Movies, while make them feel like Star Wars without referencing their own work could have been by tapping into some tropes which weren't used in Star Wars before. One idea could have been to continue down the timeline. First the antique tragedy, then the medieval sage, next something like Shakespear or Operas. Another option could have been to look at Fairy Tales, such as those collected by the brothers Grimm.
The Original trilogy works so well, because it uses tropes which have been ingrained into our culture over centuries. We all know the significance of Obi-Wan as the wise mentor, which is why nobody questions why his death has so much significance for Luke. There are many examples for this. Star Wars attempts to tell great stories, while being limited to only a few hours of screen time. Without pre-made structures to reference, this would not be possible. When Obi-Wan dies, we barely knew him. Without a structure to assign him meaning, his death would feel meaningless or cheap.
THANK YOU
Or they could have reused the hero's journey again but with complex, likeable characters and a consistent, cohesive plot without half hour pointless digressions to casino planets and gross unconsenting sexual harassment kisses. It probably wouldn't have been as groundbreaking and amazing as the originals were, but I bet they would have been decent, enjoyable films instead of..... what we got.
@@Shenaldrac was there a casino planet in the prequels too?
@@kaitlyn__L Not that I remember.
@@Shenaldrac never mind, I misread your comment as saying the prequels could’ve reused the hero’s journey rather than taking inspiration from Greek tragedies lol.
Michael Giacchino had less than 4 weeks to replace the previous composer, Alexandre Desplat, and that's why I'm giving Michael huge respect for his quick turnaround. You need to put everything in context than just past judgment without understanding the situation.
Giaccino's music for Rogue One was quite an achievement considering the short time he had to work on it.
@@evertonporter7887 Yeah. It's crazy how little time he had. He has a few themes, one being using the Dies Eries.
And yet, like almost all of his work, it's as memorable as used loo paper.
@Daniel Lindholm
so it's bad for a reason? still bad.
@@Reggie1408 , because a Frenchman wouldn't want to do new pickups which would've been better, I still think Giacchino did an acceptable job if he had more time, It would've been, unfortunately, studios only think about release dates, not production...
I CLAPPED WHEN I SAW RED LETTER MEDIA I RECOGNIZE THOSE HACK FRAUDS!
But seriously, great video.
I KNOW WHAT THAT IS!!
I am familiar with it.
Oh is that where those highly annoying idiot clips came from? I was tempted to turn off this video because of that shit.
Red letter media is hilarious though
@@jamiebraswell5520 yeah the video is great, but RLM sucks plenty.
And then came *The Mandolorian* soundtrack. I'd love to hear your take on that. Personally, I loved it. It was new and original with a classic quality that gave a sense that it was made back when the original movies were made. That combination of old recorders, modern synths, distorted guitars, and just the right amount of horns and orchestral elements was lightning in a bottle, IMO. Ludwig Goransson is one talented dude.
Andor too. Great track.
@@xijinvegg Yes.
All of Star Wars has deteriorated immensely under Disney. Story, characters, and look at the horrible fighting choreography to give another example.
only one lightsaber fight, Kylo vs Rey, and besides Rey being far too powerful, the fight doesn't really catch
the throneroom fight in TLJ was just terrible; I've always wanted to see the Guards fight, but this was way too amateurish
+ videogames, books, comics... literally everything branded star wars
@@reek4062 and considering she is still super dad man new to this and without any training at all and is somehow now just randomly fucking good at it
@mickor The impression is better, I'll give you that. I honestly didn't see all the tricks and cheats they used to make it work when I watched it the first time. I'm not a TLJ fan but I won't fault its ability to make a good first impression through sheer style if nothing else.
Even the toys got shittier. Episode 3 figure are of greater detail and quality than TFA of TLJ
Original Trilogy: Whatever that Tatooine one was, Main Star Wars theme, Imperial March
Prequels: Duel of the fates, Duel of Heroes
Sequels: ??? honestly I don't remember anything other than remixes of the original soundtrack
Rey's Theme and Kylo Ren's motif are the only one's i remember that aren't taken from the other movies
+Trade Federation/Droid invasion theme, Across the Stars, Arena theme. (from the prequels)
Prequels: Across the Stars
@@ZakJordan98 I don't remember how those tunes go.
@@Gambit771 Tbh don't blame you, they're merely the best of a bland lot
15:38 - 16:26
Nonstop chills even now. The tracks in the originals were so much more than they are now
i’ve gone so long without hearing or thinking about “look what you made me do” thanks a lot
Look what you made @pknm do!
Prequel-era star wars had the best original themes imo
THANK YOU!!
cowboi true for sure
Dude...yes. The march on the temple. The Darth Maul duel. Anakin losing his shit after his mother died. Anakin breaking Padme's heart at Mustafar. Obi-Wan's ensuing duel with him. I remember these scenes particularly because of the music.
@Rising Horizon Gaming He's a terrible director, but at least he leads to more creative freedom for their composers. At least in the prequels. Williams and Lucas had a great connection in that matter. One of the very few positive aspects of him having complete control over those movies.
What about march of the resistance?
Not sure if you did it intentionally; but in a video on reification in Star Wars, putting Georg Lukács on the screen was excellent. 👌🏻
I never even thought about that, Lol!
this is hilarious and criminally underrated
LOL, John Williams almost destroyed "Duel of Fates"....
interesting...
He needs to retire
He only has one more Star Wars movie in him.
anyone know where that clip is from of John Williams suggesting they remove the choir?
@@SensuixShinobu7 Yeah, here you go, man:
ua-cam.com/video/EYE-mhJOm5g/v-deo.html
p.s.
shameless plug incoming: I'm also a composer. I'd really appreciate it if you just checked out my stuff.
Let me know what you're thinking.
The duel of fates was amazing. What the heck....you can't please this guy....
Michael Giacchino will always have a soft spot in my heart
Rogue One was like Medal Of Honor in space
But Star Wars isn't Medal Of Honor. It's Star Wars. xD
Scott Krafft
Big brain
He seems to do his best work when he has time (not surprising). Pixar movies have a huge runway, and his Pixar work is definitely his best imo. Rogue One had him with no time at all, and there's not a lot of creativity in it.
Actually Giacchino did great. Watch Sideways' video on Rogue One.
ua-cam.com/video/Fv7QcsuvfH0/v-deo.html. 2nd best game soundtrack ever. Halo being #1 of course.
remember in the original movies, when we would get long periods where no music was playing? and the tension just built in the silence?
Any time "In the Hall of the Mountain King" plays in a commercial or other media I instantly tune out. People use the *Incompetence* technique you mentioned because the score itself is epic and they want [PRODUCT] to seem epic, when there's absolutely no gravity behind it 100% of the time.
Am I the only one who thinks Kylo’s theme sounds like a badass version of the classic “WAH WAAAAAH”?
Seems pretty fitting, I have to say.
Kylo's theme was the theme I actually remembered the most and actively looked for when I got out of the theater. I actually really liked it.
@@theredfish6258 John Williams borrowed Kylo's theme from Alban Berg's opera Wozzeck. It's the "Wir Arme Leut" leitmotif. Listen to the Interlude from Act III.
More like a half-remembered improv on the Renée Beloq theme from _Raiders of The Lost Ark._ Like how Whiter Shade of Pale sort-of weaves around a misquote from Bach's (?) Minuet.
The worst thing about Ride of the Valkyries in Watchmen is that the exact piece has a completely different meaning in the graphic novel!!!
I was really enjoying this video for how well it explains the structure of music and how Williams took bits and pieces from other maestros to create his own masterpiece. But then I lost you at you whining over the use of leitmotifs. Star Wars was pretty much always about leitmotifs. Williams' music is all about leitmotifs. The problem is not leitmotifs themselves, but how they're being used. It's how they're being dropped as musical cues to tingle to nostalgia instead of being, as you said, part of how the story is being told.
Pity, I was really enjoying this until that point. Makes me wonder if your original version was better thought out on that last part.
I'll admit one thing - I'm unhappy with the section you mentioned because I didn't flesh it out enough (was worried the time was already running way too long). However, I do think that the choice of Leitmotifs is structurally problematic because it nails the music down too much. You know each characters will have an identifying theme - and therefore you're guaranteeing a rehash of the Empire theme / Darth Vader theme for the bad guys. It's chicken and egg though - the movies are rehashes, so the music has to be a rehash too. For me, watching the first movie, I rolled my eyes when I heard Kylo Ren's theme. It told me all I needed to know about how unoriginal the films were going to be.
@@Tantacrul On the argument about rehashing, I agree. These pathetic movies are as trite and nostalgia-clingy as they can get, the amount of music recycled is just absurd (Tie Fighter Attack from ANH, Force theme EVERYWHERE, Emperor's theme for Snoke at complete random). Hell, Williams barely utilized his Jedi Steps motive outside of the beginning, instead going for the same old Han and Leia theme and a sort of heroic remix of the Imperial March for Luke. Solo, on the other hand, while being still dependant on leitmotifs, felt more creative musically speaking, although some rehashes here and there were still present. The movie itself was just bland and forgettable.
The occasional "nostalgia moment" is a great choice. I cheated when asteroid field came on in solo, but route fighter attack has been so overused it's not even funny. Still waiting for a reuse of battle if Naboo......
"I rolled my eyes when I heard Kylo Ren's theme. It told me all I needed to know about how unoriginal the films were going to be." - I'm glad I didn't roll my eyes so it didn't tell me how "unoriginal the films were going to be" at that time. Also I'm glad for not taking up musicology or musical analysis as the path of life instead giving myself to piano playing: they say sometimes reading too much specialized literature hurts. I accept your POV: your type is Apollonian principles-driven way of contemplating things. My question is where is Dionysian-driven one?
Nothing to contend your arguments with, though. Excellent.
@@gaiusflaminius4861 wut
Excellent analysis. Hard no on abandoning leitmotifs, though --
Yes, the soundtracks for the Disney Star Wars movies heavily abuse the original leitmotifs. Yes, references to the original soundtracks in sequel movies ought to be sparing and carefully considered.
However, linking musical ideas with elements of a story allows for extremely powerful musical payoffs when done well. Just because it can be done poorly doesn't mean the technique should be abandoned. The emotional resonance of meaningful, returning themes makes leitmotifs among the most powerful tools available when making a movie. The Lord of the Rings soundtrack is a masterful example of this -- though, interestingly, The Hobbit soundtrack is comparatively a disaster.
I think the main issue with the Disney Star Wars movies (and The Hobbit) is abject failure on the part of the writers, compounded with other dubious choices (Rogue One's intro shots, for instance). Given the quality of the writing, maybe it would have been better to compose without leitmotifs. How can Rey be given a fitting leitmotif when she is so poorly characterized? For all that she begins the film lonely and fiery in her self-defense, she ends the film an all-powerful Force fairy with whim as her overriding motivation. How can the First Order's theme be compelling when the First Order is not? I think the theme is exquisitely appropriate -- as the First Order is generic and dull, so the theme is. It's like Williams knows that the new movies are parodies of Star Wars, and is writing his music accordingly.
Then again, maybe incessant returns of the original leitmotifs is one of the main reasons people are still excited to see a Star Wars movie. Cheap though it is, and as much as it destroys the efficacy of the leitmotifs, it's more effective than having dramatically different music that doesn't reference the original soundtracks.
Hopefully the market, restricted and distorted though it is (i.e. ridden with cronyism and corporate welfare), and ignorant and foolish though most consumers are, successfully convinces Disney executives to reconsider their plans. Solo's box office performance gives me hope.
How about a Star Wars movie with only the opening crawl music...
It would match the intelligence of Disney's Star Wars movies. If they want to continue to neglect the writing, they may as well completely toss out intelligent soundtrack composition as well.
@@Nethseaar Relevant XKCD: xkcd.com/1843/
There's another youtuber, Sideways, who did a video about Rey's theme that feels relevant to this discussion. He defends John Williams, citing that Rey's theme is written the way it is due to William's lack of knowledge about where her character is going, that he slid in several of the iconic Star Wars themes in her theme so that he could evolve her leitmotiv with whatever direction she ended up going. So I think that supports the idea that the failure here is on the part of the writers, that Williams just wasn't given enough to work with, and so relied on what was there because he couldn't afford to close off musical avenues that the future might require.
@@flashbaggins427 That XKCD is on point!
Also, good reference to Sideways -- I definitely appreciate the John Williams videos on that channel.
Can we just have a moment of silence for the greatness that is the Phantom Menace soundtrack? The movie might not be respected, but the soundtrack is just crazy good.
The movie isn’t respected because it’s a corny attempt to Disneyfy Star Wars. Lucas admitted it himself.
I should also note that the reasons Williams stuff in SW has a lot of similarity to Holst etc, is a practical one. George Lucas had edited the film using orchestral pieces he thought fit then handed that to Williams and told him to rebuild it with original tunes. So basically Williams kinda rewrote the tunes. This is pretty common in film scoring apparently
The trailer for the Last Jedi was not scored by John Williams, it was done by a trailer composer.
I think you’re right about music needing creativity and reusing the same leitmotifs is definitely a mistake. However, I think leitmotifs are highly beneficial when written and used correctly. Consider the Mandalorian TV show. I think the Mandalorian score is great but when a character uses the force and the yoda/force motifs don’t play, I feel like Im in a completely different cinematic universe. Again, I’m not saying all music should be recycled over and over. But sometimes music is as much as part of the world as characters, setting, and rules.
Also, I would have to disagree about your point about Rey’s theme. I feel like Rey’s theme is one of the strongest musical pieces in the star wars universe. You claim that the star wars universe lacks originality and I totally agree. Rey’s theme suits her character (however awful it may be) well so why does it matter if it FEELS like star wars music or not? If something doesn’t feel like star wars, it’s the fault of the thing itself, not the music describing it.
Overall I think this was a great video but some of the points were a bit off. The leitmotifs hold incredible value to the cinematic universe and they should be used appropriately.
20:56 "It would take a whole video to do this piece justice..."
Oh, go on then. :)
I loved how Rouge 1 opened as prelude up to its true, though brief title frame and musical theme. Making Star Wars different in any way yet still retaining similar feelings is an imposing task. I think it worked.
ROGUE
I think the leitmotif and reification in Star Wars suits the franchise. It truly makes it feel like a coherent and consistent universe. I think it can be dialed back a bit (Like overusage of the force theme) but I still believe that themes like the Imperial March are crucial to Star Wars and shouldn't be completely discarded
Still waiting for the Sideways Vs Tentacrul leitmotif smackdown.
I want this so much
I'd donate to that livestream...
Revenge of the sith had the best score....star wars music at it's best
Agree, the beginning of the movie with the drums, Padmes ruminations. And anakin vs obi wan, general grievous theme, march on the jedi temple, some examples
Dual of Fates says no. ;)
That was also in episode 3, but it wasn't prominent.
@@RaptorJesus.O que há de errado com o Dual Fates? Eu acho que essa música é uma das mais icônicas de Star Wars.
@@Fearless1247 also 'Anakins Betrayal' (the order 66 music) and 'The Birth of Twins and Padme's Destiny' (the music that plays in the last Darth Vader scene)
I liked Rogue One's soundtrack because it was similar to the OTs. I love the Imperial Suite, it's a nice variation of the Imperial March and it fits for representing the Empire as a whole, while the Imperial March is more for Darth Vader. I didn't like Force Awakens because it had nothing good sounding and iconic. At leas RO sounded good.
While I agree in general that reification could become a Bad Thing, making Star Wars the example is EXTREMELY problematic. That problem being that John Williams' themes and other compositions are interwoven into the DNA of the film series. You can build on it, perhaps even riff on it, but you can't simply excise it in favor of something completely new.
To misquote Jonathan Kent, those themes are there for a reason. I've read the complaints in here that Williams' music is now little more than a meme, but remember why memes are effective and (sometimes) funny - they're immediately identifiable. Identification isn't something to avoid, but rather something to pursue. When it's not pursued, you're liable to get a bunch of music that is neither effective within the context of where it's placed in the film nor memorable after curtain drop.
Howard Shore also did this for The Lord of the Rings and it worked magnificently. John Barry was also a maestro at this for the Bond films (David Arnold, eh, not so much).
That said, the Star Trek film series is a somewhat decent example of how reification can be avoided. Jerry Goldsmith's score for The Motion Picture is almost unrivaled in its thematic brilliance. And then James Horner stepped in and gave us two more wonderful bombastic scores for The Wrath of Khan and The Search for Spock. Unfortunately, Leonard Rosenman's efforts for The Voyage Home were completely lost on me (though I did quite enjoy his employ for Bakshi's Lord of the Rings). Goldsmith returned to rescue The Final Frontier from schlock to entertaining schlock. However, Cliff Eidelman's compositions for The Undiscovered Country were just okay-ish and only really shined during the ending credits.
To summarize, reification in and of itself isn't necessarily just laziness on the part of the composer, especially someone of John Williams' caliber. In Star Wars' case, it GREATLY helps Star Wars to BE Star Wars.
BTW, I echo the lament other people have expressed in here about film scoring being a lost art. It's actually a big reason why I can't muster a lot of excitement for modern-day movies.
I appreciate your musical expertise on the subject, but I got to have to disagree about you saying that Rogue One was not as good with the musical choices as The Force Awakens. I think the use of certain themes or pieces of established music helps Rogue One. I can agree the the Force Theme playing with Bail Organa appeared on the screen was probably not the best use of it, but everything else was great.
Check out Sideways video of Rogue One to get his defense of liefmotifs in Rogue One.
I'm glad to see that the Mandalorian theme didnt have this issue. It was completely new, while still having the _spirit_ of star wars music.
oi stop bashing my leitmotifs they are fundamentally why lotr and star wars music is so good
I'm pretty much addicted to those things, but I'm willing to entertain the idea that their use and especially overuse is a bad thing.
Just imagine lambasting Wagner for his use of leitmotif's in Twilight of the Gods. "Dude you used all that themes before and now I have to listen to this for 4 and half hours?!" Pff..
@@Kissamiess It's the overuse that needs addressed. My take is that they are falling back on the music to try to get an emotional response because character development and connection simply isn't there. They are compensating for poor story through our connection of the music and far better story telling.
Operatic film score is the best. Especially for the regular viewer. So many people don't even realize the importance of music, I honestly don't know how they'd fair if movies didn't give the subtle clues and emotions via music and the leitmotifs
@Alyn Smith
Original main theme jumbled about in Rogue One?
I greatly enjoyed your thoughtfully laid out critique of these non-risks taken in the recent Star Warses. I agree that I don't think I will be looking at music in the same way again either. Although, even before you introduced me to reification, I remember in no way finding the recent Star Wars additions memorable. They did the job, and yeah, I teared up in each one in the theater when the right music button got pushed in my head... But the memories of hearing those themes for the first time are already taken up by other Star Wars films. Watching a new Star Wars film is almost sad, now, because while the feeling of "Star Wars" music is there, the enduring experience is more akin to watching a soulless, immediately-forgettable Marvel movie. Brass and sampled drums ahoy...
Excited to hit my head against the advanced level links. The place of reification in our everyday, non-musical lives seems like it could have vast consequences. Seems perhaps related to the society of the spectacle, i.e., pertaining to what we both perceive and desire from the things we take in day after day - even if it's just The Force theme.
Tantacrul: The preocess of reififcation.
Sheeve Palpatine: Ironic.
Rey-ification that’s kind of what I heard people complaining about with the film.
"Duel of the Fates"" was the best thing to come from the prequels.
That is one of the best in the trilogy.
gotta agree.. the best nostalgia I have from that era is playing some PC games with that playing in the soundtrack.. Good times..
Battle of the Heroes blew Duel of the Fates out of the water.
IcebergMM you mean besides the prequels
Cyril true
I think we shouldn't immediately blame John Williams for the problems in the recent scores, but most likely a lot of the blame should be put on the directors, who probably insisted on such frequent usage of motifs like the force theme. Also, I think that leitmotifs are not the issue you recognise, but the over usage of them, which is very easy, but like all things in excess, should be carefully avoided. Leitmotifs are a really great when used correctly (like in the first six Star Wars films) and can be extremely satisfying, especially as little hints. And to me the most important part of scoring a film like this is to make it sonically as entertaining as every other element, which the newer films definitely are less successful at by constantly replaying old motifs. Kylo Ren's theme is actually borrowed from a part of the Emperor's theme from Return of the Jedi, just to remove a little bit more originality from the sequel soundtrack.
Leitmotifs can be great. I think Marty's work as a jingle writer for commercials helped make Halo so iconic by assigning themes to different characters.
...what? Star Wars literally wouldn't be what it is today without John Williams's excellent use of leitmotifs. He's one of the only composers who still consistently does it well and if they were to abandon that in future Star Wars soundtracks that would truly be the death of the franchise. Bringing up Rogue One is especially egregious. TFA does make quite heavy use of existing themes but Rogue One is mostly original material, only bringing in Williams's themes for key moments. Darth Vader's scenes wouldn't have been anywhere nearly as impactful without the Imperial March scoring them. It wouldn't have felt like Star Wars.
I do agree that the score for TFA was a bit weak, but it was the parts that *weren't* using leitmotifs that I found lacking in originality. I thought he did a better job with that in TLJ though, with more memorable non-thematic action music.
*JAR JAR ABRAMS and his cronies could not finish the TFA script on time, so he could not give enough time for John Williams to contemplate what score to give it.* So Williams had to churn out generic utilitarian scores all the while Jar Jar was struggling to write something original for once, then double-failing when his uncreative results amount to overrated *MYSTERY BOXES* that have no substance. Also, John Williams's failing health due to age, he could no longer be frequently flown about studios and whatnot so he had to do it in as minimum number of stays as possible.
Mystery boxes are just an overglorified misuse of another tool called The McGuffin. Except that McGuffins are used in plots that are centered around the drama and struggle of getting the McGuffin so what they are are not important to the scope of the plot. But the way JarJar Abrams uses it and rebrands it as Mystery Boxes, they are just core parts of the movie plot that needed explaining, but he postpones explaining it like it's one of those weekly TV series he was working on and not a movie with 2 year gaps. All because he doens't know how to amaze the audience, so he keeps gesturing for us to be amazed, like serving us fine wine after a meal that consisted of a plate full of empty air, then telling us what an amazing meal we had tonight just cuz the wine was tasty.
Jar Jar Abrams is a retarded hack.
It's so funny to see that EVERYONE with technical knowledge hates the new star wars movies. A dude did a tactical analysis, another fight scene analysis, you did a musical analysis, another did the technical story telling aspect.
True
perhaps films aren't only meant to be enjoyed on a technical level
Technically the prequels are the ones to blame in the alleged “fight analysis,” as the original trilogy didn't have any consistency nor real structure in that matter. The overloaded and glossed over choreography made everyone think that the lightsaber fights should be like that in the new movies, while they didn't aim for such things. Of course they are flawed, but it's not really the point. They are science fiction, a lot of stuff while put through the lense of overanalyzing end up being extremely bad. Both prequels and original trilogy could suffer the same issues. It's not that they're more flawed than the previous ones, it's that most people just plain hate this new movies (I do, at least the ones directed by Abrahams), and try to “justify” or “settle” their hatred in nonsensical critics that in fact lead to nowhere and could be a double edged weapon if applied to previous films. Some are kinda on point or at least we'll structured, but the hate received by TLJ is simply ridiculous and has been tied to childish fanboy cry in some “critical” form. This video is NOT in that realm of critic, of course. This has a point and stablish the aim on the general musical analysis, not a “TLJ is bad music” kind of video.
@@Flowtail Maybe, but it helps elevate the films beyond just being enjoyable. That's what makes them unique and interesting.
@@Tamaki742 true, but the implication of the comment kinda makes me wary--it's not said, but Enigma implies that the more "technical" analysis are, like, more "true" to the films' actual quality?
like, the themes of 8 were pretty strong--that was why the racist asshole crowd hated it so much. but that's not a technical quality, so it usually gets put on the back-burner for the kinds of folk who focus on technical stuff
I heard that John Williams couldn't work with a complete cut of the Last Jedi, so he was hamstrung. Jaws, ET, Starwars, Close Encounters, Indiana Jones, AI. Don't blame the master John Williams. Blame Johnson, Kennedy and Disney.
That's how composing for movies works. You never get to see the whole movie.
How is that the directors fault? Besides, that happens all the time
@@Reggie1408 That's not true. Usually the composer doesn't begin their job until the production reaches picture lock. TLJ was a special case.
To be more accurate, he was asked to compose prior to post-production. Johnson wanted to use Williams's actual compositions during post-production, rather than temp music (but Williams obviously doesn't do as well composing that way, comparing Last Jedi's soundtrack to the other seven films).
I feel like pretty soon people are gonna start telling me why I can blame rian johnson for 9/11, its the new "thanks obama"
I also noticed the overuse of the The Force Theme and its role as a musical crutch in the more recent movies. It made me sad because the defining moment of Star Wars to me is when Yoda is explaining to Luke on Dagobah what the Force is--"it surrounds us, and binds us. Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter" while the Force Theme plays, and the sense of wonder the Force Theme adds to the mystifying dialogue is very powerful at evoking an audience reaction. That scene always makes the hairs on my neck stand. Now the Force Theme just a generic musical queue to be played when "Force stuff" happens. It stopped being a powerful piece of sensory experience of the film, and has now become a simple cue to tell the audience "it's time to feel a sense of wonderment."
At 15:09, I think the force theme is used here to symbolize Bail Organa as the Rebellion's connection to Obi-Wan. Binary Sunset was used as Obi-Wan's theme for most of the first movie, and later in Rogue One, when Bail is talking about Obi-Wan the force theme comes back. The use of the force theme during Bail's first appearance in the movie isn't pandering to nostalgia (at least that's not it's only purpose); it's a reminder of Bail's importance to the story of A New Hope and the music itself shows the connection.
That's the first time I've heard a different perspective on Hendrix's anthem cover... what's the theory? Naturally school told me it HAD to be anti war, and a quick internet search leaves me flooded with the usual narrative.
just throwing bullshit out there with no proof and gishgalloping for 10 minutes is peak youtube
I gotta disagree about Rey's theme. Adventurous but lonely does fit Rey and that sound, and I think it's a really cool song on its own
Alone in the stars with so much to see only to be confronted with reality
I think rey's music is the best thing about the character.
Tantacrul: "Film hacks transform meaningful music into lazy shorthand."
Film Colorists: "WELCOME TO OUR LIVING HELL."
As someone who loves Rogue One, I'll acknowledge that the use of Luke's theme when Bail Organa appears was a misuse of the theme. However, the use of the Rebel's theme when the X-Wing saved the Scarif ground troops and the use of the Imperial theme when Vader is present is *perfectly* appropriate, and I don't know why you're criticizing themes for being used when the things they represent are *on screen* as "uncreative".
This leads in to your improper criticism of Rogue One as a whole; you criticize it for using staple classic Star Wars icons when the film literally takes place where those things first appeared. The film was never meant to be wholly brand-new and different; that's what The Force Awakens should have been. Using X-Wings in a film that takes place immediately before A New Hope is proper, not uncreative; whereas using X-Wings in a film that takes place 30 years after the original trilogy is improper and uncreative. Rogue One was different and creative in its stories and main cast, yet you just yawn at those. Like you said yourself, when you do something different there's no pleasing everyone and apparently it didn't please you.
I couldn't agree more, you phrased it perfectly!
Luke's theme wasn't used for when Bail appeared, though. Luke's official leitmotif is the main theme of the franchise (hence why you always hear it accompanying him, or when Williams uses it for him when he utilizes the twins' two themes for the climax of RotS). What played for Organa was the Force theme, which was initially tied to Obi-Wan before becoming a general idea for Jedi for the rest of the series. With that said, obviously it doesn't fit for that character either, because he's not a Jedi. :P
Rogue One was boring and uninspired.
@@gregoryl.levitre9759 Wow, thanks for that insightful opinion. No one has ever said that before, and it certainly never occurred to me that anyone might think that. You have totally changed my mind on the movie. Good job.
I completely agree with your argument. Rogue One's use of established themes was appropriate and got me excited when they are placed at the right moments.
I think Giacchino's ending score in Rogue One was amazing. It really was time contraints that hindered him on that one. The score for the Last Jedi was absolutely forgettable, however, which I did not like. I heard they made Williams write the score while in the scripting stage, so that might be why leitmotif is overused here.
I think overall you do have a pretty good point, however.
Bill the Destroyer of Worlds the incredibles had better music than all of these Disney movies
9:46 I remember George Lucas talking about some of this in an interview that was on the first VHS remaster of the star wars trilogy (yes I'm that old) Where he talked about writing the scene to music, using it as a temp-track for editing, and then handing those tracks to John Williams saying "can you use some of these melodies, or evoke some of these feelings."
"The Force Awakens..." "original and creative..."
WELL, THERE GOES YOUR CREDIBILITY.
Unless it’s the music I agree
Finding Georg Lukács referenced in Star Wars: ✓
I agree on pretty much everything you are saying, but considering why these movies have been decided to be made in the first place, it pretty much explains everything.
This makes me think of Halo and how 1 was original, 2,3 evolved being part of that trilogy. but how Reach and OSDT felt like something different while still feeling like Halo. Definitely some overlap but it wasn't overuse of like what modern day starwars is doing. Although I cannot speak for 4 or 5...
Good editing, montage and nice DIES IRAE being the Wilhelm Scream footnote.
I kinda feel that the intro could have been a little bit shorter and going to the "Star Wars Music is Getting Worse" thesis.
Star Wars doesn't need to change in orchestra music or leitmotifs, it is it's own essence. Maybe NEW films and sagas should change their music view, but not destroying a legacy of a 40 year old saga.
I don't get the problem with Rogue One intro, neither with the fan service soundtrack, Michael Giacchino (whose musical style isn't that classical as John Williams) did a pretty good job.
While I feel how Star Wars soundtrack is WEAKER than the Original Saga and the Prequels, I wouldn't say it's getting WORSE; it's a new triology after almost 40 years, with a whole universe set up, with a lot of fans waiting for nostalgia, of course its going to overuse some old themes.
Oh my god, until now I never knew why Tchaikovskys Violin Concerto had this familiarity...
You let me know why I think the music in the TFA and TLJ are very good but not very expressing compared to prequel and original trilogy. Instant subbed.
In the sequel. music pieces are just pasted together instead of merging with each other. The only time I feel there is a connection is from the tone change from Rey's original theme to when she knows about the force and finally embrace it. Compared to other movies the star wars sequel really has good BGMs, but not legendary ones like before.
Thanks very much. Welcome aboard!
This was the first movie scored by John that I don’t remember the music(aside from the reuse of previous themes)
Really great video. The concept of reification is really interesting and is possibly the greatest existential threat to musicians everywhere. At some point, every melody will be used and reused to the point where new music no longer strikes emotions in a listener's heart. Let's hope that never happens :D
How is 19th century orchestra being overused these days? Most soundtracks go for the big Zimmeresque generic synths. We need innovation, yes, but innovation can't mean dumbification of stuff. Between the 19th century (or beginning of the 20th century's) classical music and the forgettable "themes" we have with most scores these days, I'll stay with the orchestra
I think he meant like Wagnerian orchestra with an extreme love of brass, it makes sense with his sentence after stating that all he hears is brass. He just wants a little more variety in what instruments we utilize in film score. I like a lot of Zimmer's earlier music with the emphasis primarily on the strings, it is a nice reprieve from the big brass used in a lot of williams scores. Not to say that williams isn't good, but variety is the flavor of life. so to speak.
@@mathematics117 Yeah that does make sense. There must be a middle ground between throwing away all of the advances in harmonic development, or even atonal timbre-focused classical stuff and ignoring the advances of technology and production. I'm not a nostalgia glossed eye "I miss the old ways" guy (even though I love the old ways and enjoy it). And even though I love John Williams and have a huge respect and admiration for his craft, I won't say he's original because he's not. He's incredibly competent in what he sets to accomplish.
John Williams indeed likes brass, but in his vast work he used a lot of other aesthetics too. If you listen to the more drama-fuelled stuff, there's a loooot of strings and woodwinds, and even though he uses the horn a lot, it's adding to the WW section a lot of times. Star Wars, on the other hand, is very brassy and I think that's a conscious decision and, at the time, it was fresh. Sci-Fi usually goes for the futuristic synth sounds, but when you use a military band brass vibe, it passes the idea that war is always the same, only the technology is different. And yes, the new movies are surfing the nostalgia vibe but, honestly? Fine by me. It's enjoyable, and I don't think we should take it too seriously. And the need to innovate is valuable, but sometimes it's overrated.
And yes, Zimmer was really good. Like really good. He had an amazing balance between the old and the new, he was fresh. Now I think he settled for branding and selling his big brass synth spiced low gritty sound, with a really good production but, in my opinion, low on substance. Really well produced, mixed, interesting sounds, not amounting to anything great. It works, it's big, it's trailer hype, but it's essentially the equivalent of fast food. Overexposure to stimuli.
And that's what producers want, that's what directors want and that's what sells. So, me personally, I think it's nice to hear the 19th century orchestra in a major blockbuster movie. Even if Holst, Strauss, Wagner, Stravinsky, Mahler, Tchaikovsky, Prokofiev etc etc did it before, it's still REALLY well executed, orchestrated and produced. So I can appreciate that.
Star Wars is one of the very few film series to actually use a full-size symphony orchestra at the moment - its way cheaper to get 8 cellos and a solo violin and multi-track (which is how most film and tv music is scored now). I'm all for the orchestra too. There is NO overusing
@@HarryFontaine 8 cellos and a violin? Please can you explain that remark?
Rey's Theme sounds like Harry Potter to me...
Edit: Oh well, I'm not alone I see.
Hey, I live in the Italian city where the Rockin' 1000 thing happened :) I'm currently on a binge of your videos because I love how you combine music and philosophy and I am so happy to see Cesena here :D
No. Do not get rid of my opera in Star Wars.
Space Opera without the Opera!
Me thinking the live version of Smells Like Teen Spirit is the best version
Very interesting video, thank you. The term reification is important to a particular branch of software engineering, where the developer is faced with a choice concerning the encapsulation of behaviour and state. It's hard to grasp, and I hadn't considered it applied to my composition work. It's not the first time that the domains of software engineering and musical composition have shared or leaked concepts in this manner. Enlightening stuff, thank you.
I think you're giving Rogue One a hard time for no reason, while passing on TFA's failings in creativity. Sure Rogue One used the Force theme/binary subsent theme badly, though that can be attributed to corporate interference. However, using the imperial march can be explained with the fact that Rogue One was meant to be a direct prequel to Episode 4, so it makes sense for the score to hit the same noted as the original.
And your criticism of not including a title crawl is just wrong.
"I will criticize you for deviating from the tired theme I expected of you, which I would criticize you for". This is a catch 22 - the movie can't win in your book. Personally, I never really cared about the title crawl. For me it was always about the first scenes ever since seeing the OT, and Alien. And I think Rogue One absolutely nailed it. The quick jumpcut to a distant planet emphasized the lonelines and vastness of space, and the music instills fear and uncertainty in the viewer. Though the opening score was not much to talk about, as it was the rework of a less known theme, there were plenty of memorable themes in Rogur One. Particularly the Jeddha theme stood out to me.
It's not a catch 22, a catch 22 has no correct answer. Whether you agree with his criticism or not his complaint is that they feign like they are going to do the title crawl but then don't, the "correct" answer to the author of this video is to either A: do the title crawl that people expected from the shot you set up or B: use a different shot that doesn't bait the title crawl, then proceed to not use the title crawl.
In order to accomplish A or B you would have to be aware of expectations and then make a choice to either differentiate or stay the same, instead their choice is to get the familiarity of the title crawl but then do something different.
I personally disagree with the author on this point and think it works because Rogue one IS familiar but different, it's Star Wars and we all know exactly what's going to happen but it's also not quite a space opera this time it's more like a war movie and that's different, thematically to me that works.
@@HalooINC The lucasfilm logo is not "baiting" anything. It's simply not part of the movie. Hell, it's not exclusive to Star Wars - as far as i know, other lucasarts products have it too.
As for catch 22 - he said the movie shouldn't reuse themes and motives, but then chastised the movie for innovating.
@@horvathbenedek3596 Again it's not JUST the lucasfilm logo, its the logo and the pan upwards, the whole video is about Reification and we all know what that signals at the beginning of a Star Wars film, the title crawl. Again because in his opinion it's basically trying to reuse a theme and motive but also do something different it's not really innovating hence the joke about Red Letter Media mocking it as not an innovation.
You can disagree if you want but it's not a catch-22.
@@HalooINC I don't know what you are smoking. Watch from 22:00 (ironic) - Star Wars logo, Lucas Films logo, jumpcut, pan upwards. At no point does the film bait the title crawl, nor does it imitiate the original movies too much.
And it's a catch 22 from the standpoint of the creatord and the maker of this video. Show me how it isn't.
@@horvathbenedek3596 What happens during the title crawl? basically nothing is in the middle of the shot except space because that's where the title and the exposition will go. What happens in that jumpcut? There's nothing in the middle of the shot except space because that's where the title and exposition will go... oh wait they just panned away, fucking fooled us.
At this point we're talking in circles but it's not a catch-22 because even if you fundamentally disagree with the authors premise he clearly has something he thinks the movie could have done correctly, just because you're interpretation means the movie couldn't do anything to please him doesn't mean the author didn't have something in mind. If there is a correct answer, and clearly to the author there was, then it's not a catch-22.