I watched all 10 hours - you guys did a great job pushing all the EV's to their limits ... Well done and a big thanks for making it so entertaining ...Love Out of Spec !
I watched all of it too. Well, except for the Acura team's long talk when they finished. I don't have any interest in what they had to say. I've driven across country in a gasoline burning car several of times.
Sorry to hear that there was so much negative response. Should be taken for what is - a fun, entertaining event with helpful information. The competition just adds to the effect. Thumbs up to all involved.
Ignore the comments from people who were angry. The Dave curse is just funny to laugh at, at the end of the day the Lucid would've been neck and neck with the Ioniq6 which really speaks more to it's charging curve than anything else. You guys did great, it wouldn't have change the outcome by more than a few %.
Great video, a fantastic debrief. Clears up a lot of questions. Yes a few mistakes that ended up costly; however, with some better decisions the Lucid would have been second. This race was the most informative compared to all past races. Please post all the spreadsheets, would be a great contribution to the whole EV community and manufacturers. Thanks for all the work, dedication and time sacrificed for all the teams and other that contributed to this epic race/test. 🎉
Kyle, after hearing one of the Autel guys pointing out during the trip that it would be better if there was more Autel charging stations on I90, I can't help but wonder how much good could be done it each of the cars in the race also had an executive from that manufacture. These Executives could learn some things by watching your videos but if they spent 48 plus hours in their own company's vehicle, they would feel the stress and the excitement from the highs and the lows of this trip. It could also be a great ideal to have some one from each of the charging companies (Electrify America, Charge Point, EV Go, ect). They should have to deal with the charging problems in person.
Team Lucid did a great job! They found the limits of the car under an extreme test of the car. Definitely a hardcore test with hardcore enthusiasts behind the wheel of the Lucid. Nothing to be ashamed about. That was an excellent test showing what the car is capable of. Great job, Alex, Shane, and Dave!
I have a 2020 Taycan 4S with 94,000 miles and 90% SoH reported by BMS. Still charges at 260kW to about 55%, it’s a road trip monster. I have about 60% DCFC. Picked up the car with 22miles. Porsche knows how to manage a battery.
so essentially what happened was the lucid team flew too close to the sun, but in order to win a race you have to fly very close and take risk. Of course it wasn't the operator's intention to get burnt by the sun, but these things can happen when you are pushing hard. Good job kyle and the team!
I thoroughly enjoyed the series and learned a ton, including how amazing the Lucid Air is. We all know where the Lucid was slated to place, and frankly it was more interesting to see what does happen in a real world scenario when you cut it too close. Great job. Seriously.
I think the biggest lesson here is that you should never trust the buffer (below 0%) because the buffer can bite back. BMS sway was definitely a factor here with the non-stop use across many charge cycles. It only gets worse the longer the race is since the battery hasn't gotten any rest periods to calibrate charge level. I think teams in future EV races should take this into consideration, you might be able to go to 0% early in the race, but not later on.
I really enjoyed this series and am looking forward to all of these discussions with the teams. In a hypothetical scenario, the worst the Lucid would have finished would have been 4th. Given the tight race between the Model 3, Ioniq 6, and Lucid at the end, I would have really liked to have seen the actually placing but unfortunately it didn't work out.
Great job to all the teams! What a fun and informative race. I learned a lot. I’m a new ev owner (ioniq5) and am absorbing information about ev’s at the rate of a grade schooler. Big thanks for your videos!
The RV plug was likely a TT-30 connection. They do sell RV TT-30P 30 Amp Plug to 50 Amp EVSE adaptors. Good one to have if you anticipate road tripping your EV and parking in RV parks.
Yep but you have to be careful, there are many cars that wont even pull over 12A on a TT-30p @120v. Best case you get 24A @ 120v which is still not even 3kW, but theres only a handful of cars that will do it and you definitely need the right adapters to get the car to do it (like Tesla). Smart to have on a trip through northern canada, probably not gonna be in the car on a race like this.
@tazeat those 14-30 adaptors give 2 bridged hots, which seems like a bad idea. anyway, these days even the cheap state and ntnl park campgrounds have 14-50 240v pedestals
Loved the series. Watched almost all of each episode. I figured the Lucid would finish behind the porsche. Its pretty impressive that an EV can somewhat keep up with a fossil car across the US.
For the negative comments, post the times and challenge another team to beat the time/challenge. Your team has showcased the to the world how to push everything on the market for free! The in’s & out’s showcased are priceless. Between your team/channel, Brandon, & Dad’s channel is the only reason I have a EV!!! Awesome close out challenge for the year!
Normal folks are going to use the range to pick a stop where they want to stop rather than where the car needs to stop. Most will likely start the day full, stop for lunch where they can get a deeper charge, and then finish the day at a location where they can get a good charge to set them up for the next day. Few want t go more than 600 miles a day. And even if they do, a stop for food every 4 hours makes for a quite comfortable trip. I love my Mach-E, even if Kyle hates it, but I would be happy to do the long trips in a Lucid. Finally, I think it should be clear that the car had been warning about low battery, and everything was otherwise fine down to zero. It was only pushing into the buffer that led to the issue, and then, only after most of two days of constant driving with no breaks.
Your guy’s videos have saved me on a Roadtrip to and through Italy as you’ve teaching all of is how and what to do during extreme moments. Let me tell you, that at one time at 2.30am on a Monday in Italy, my wife very much appreciated my nerdy knowhow obtained watching your videos. 😂😂😂 So thanks for that! My UA-cam-watching-car-videos-time hasn’t been frowned upon since. 😂
The races are one of the most fun things to watch on UA-cam! People in the race comments are way too critical from the outside looking in. You guys did a great job and little errors are bound to happen with a 3000 mile trip!
Watched all ten+ hours! Mamma Mia, I can’t believe I watched the whole thing. 😁 Looks like you got another 10 or so hours of debriefing videos, if this is any indication. Will be interesting. I’m here for it all!
If no teams had pushed the limits it wouldn't have been nearly as fun to watch. And hell these odd negative comments are still helping to boost the engagement. Thanks for all the effort guys!
It would be cool to have a replay or capture of the tracking app you used during the race for these reviews, it would help us follow along visually with the map. A quick timelapse could make a good short that could be included at the end of the the last video or something too. This was a cool race, Thanks! :)
I need to apologize to Dave. I was hating on team Lucid but I think the regen is too aggressive so vs the free wheeling Taycan it was too busy phase changing kinetic energy into the battery then back to thrust, that's not good for efficiency! No cruise and draft every chance you can is the fastest most efficient way but hard to do hours on end. Watched all 4 episodes on 1.75x and got a lot done on those Saturdays.
For me the Lucid team was the most entertain, well prepared, most aggressive strategy by far. Great Job and thank you all of you in the team!!!! The Lucid is not fully baked yet and overrated for now.
Story: So Kyle’s dad, how did 3 different all electric cars you were navigating end up running out of electricity when none of the other vehicles in each of those cross country treks ran out of electricity? Was it the car? Was it the team? Was it someone in each of the teams? Does lightning strike 3 times in a row? Your Out of Spec viewers would like to know.
As an Engineer, I would say that you don’t really know the limitations until you find the limitations. One helpful test that you could do before a race is to test the range at 80 mph before you begin the race.
everyone is talking about the strategy of buffers, curves, time at charger vs avg speed. but what this series really showed is that it's still all about luck with challenged charging infrastructure that does a piss-poor job of communicating status
it was definitely a great experiment to record for all of us to see…we know for sure the EV movement has improved much over the last 10 years. The infrastructure needs to catch up, too, but overall it seems that most EVs can be road tripped. thanks for the great commentary and entertainment.
I really like the lucid in this surge type contest. I just wish the charging curve was a little bit better because I feel like if you guys could have gotten up to like 65 or 75% at almost every charge stop. It would have been dramatically better in terms of the finish because I felt like in terms of the electric vehicles it was supposed to be the Porsche and the lucid battling for first and second. Maybe the model 3 taking third and then everybody else. So I really had high hopes for the lucid but I have to say the ionic 6 surprise me. That being said, great video and grade series. Keep up the great work and I'll catch y'all on the next one and have a good one.
Congrats to the Amazing knew Tesla Model 3. Loved the tripple video & what a great balanced video or all the cars. Thanks so much for your exhausting weekend, amazing education for us in such an entertaining format.
Re: typical road trips and charging habits, the Lucid's performance sounds fine to me. When you're not in a race and you have big range, by the time you need to charge you're ready for a longer stop. Starting the day at 100% and driving 450 miles on the highway, we're talking 6 hours on the road at that point. It's probably time for a longish bathroom break and a succulent Chinese meal. By the time that's done, a Lucid would be back to 80-90%. From there, another 350-400 miles is just about all the driving I want to do in a day, maybe one more charging/snack stop if I'm close to my destination. Realistically these charge times are as good as getting gas for most use cases, as long as the chargers are somewhere with amenities.
Great work by team lucid. Mistakes made but owned. Perhaps the comfort of the car lulled the occupants into a slightly less lucid state. Question: Kyle's comments about height of the occupants made me wonder if occupant weight might have also impacted efficiency? Isn't it something like 1-2% range hit per 100 lbs?
I wish the spreadsheet had a column to calculate the average charge speed for each stop rather than only peak. It would be a quick way to compare charging efficiency of the different cars at different stops.
Realistically, I think if every team had perfectly optimized, it looks like the lucid was battling the Plaid for 4th place. That is no fault to this team. We can all say we would have done something different now, but hindsight is 20/20.
Is the answer as simple as the fastest refueling car wins? Can you show a chart with the total energy taken in divided by total refueling time for each car? I'm guessing gas car is on top and Taycan is second - would be cool to see the ranking of the others. Thanks.
Can you post your spreadsheets. I often take trips from mid Missouri to Washington state. I know the charging infrastructure along I70 since I also make trips to Colorado. I have no problems taking my ID4 to Colorado. But the infrastructure from Kansas City to Sioux Falls isn’t great. The new EA in Sioux Falls is really nice. But, when you travel west along I90 is incredibly bad with head winds. You absolutely have to drive at 65 to make it to the next station. The stretch from Gillette is terrible. There is one 50 kW station in Sheridan. I am glad you did Seattle to Boston, that was useful information. I think if you do Boston to Seattle, the race would be far more challenging.
Yeah, too bad that they didn’t all swap cars and do the Surge back from Boston to Seattle in the same ten cars after a couple of days of good rest in Boston ….
I have died 3x in my Chevy Bolt EUV. Got towed once to Chevy dealer and DC Fast charged no problem. Other two times used my Expedition and pulled it to AC chargers and no problem charging.
One of my main question about this issue is why never calculate the number of kwh consumed per 100 miles? You know how much your car supposes to have and making sure the speed, climate and hilly country....but for my previous roadtrips from 2000 to 3400 miles, this is the way I guest my travel!
Who could be mad at this team, they came up with a plan and at the end of the day it didn't quite work the way they expected. They were trying to do the best they could, no one can fault them for how this went down. Get a life folks.
@@chaudcolahow long did you think non growing low view counts were sustainable for? I thought she was a great host but just didn’t click with growing the audience
Given the results, it doesn’t appear the Supercharger network provided that much of an overall advantage. The main advantage the Teslas had was they were not limited to using Superchargers.
I disagree with your strategy, with suboptimal arrival guestimations, over charge. You constantly bit yourself having to slow, having to turn back, running out of charge, it just doesn't pan out on these races. Give yourself the buffer and just sit at that max speed. Ryan has the right idea. edit: Not blaming the car, though I do believe the range estimates appear less than optimal (like many EVs), I just think there was room for improvement in strategy based on what we as a viewer saw. Definitely not sabotage, just missed opportunities.
Aptera should partitcpate with the 1000 mile battery version and see if having the highest efficiency puts it ahead assuming it also has the highest MPH charging*. * This might have to be an improved charging capability version.
Thanks for the run. I was definitely disappointed in the Lucid Air (not counting the running out). With the range, efficiency, and peak charging speeds, I was expecting better.
48:32 And to be clear, I'm not criticizing the team. On paper, the Lucid should have done much better, but as we know, paper doesn't always match reality.
Lucid seems to have really leaned heavily into efficiency but their battery + charging tech is not as class-leading as you would suspect. Team Lucid was in between the Model 3 and Ioniq 6 when it died in New York. On paper, the Lucid should have run away with it but the reality is that between the car's limitations and the mistakes from the team, they were coming up short.
@@newscoulomb3705 I could be wrong, but, I think every car that had a higher miles per kilowatt hour than the Lucid was both rear wheel drive and toting much smaller batteries than it was. So, in that context, as both a larger battery vehicle and AWD, I find the Lucid’s 3.3 mi/ kwh efficiency is actually really impressive.
@@djcali001 Sure, I'm just saying that, based on Lucid's own numbers, it underperformed. Also, the original Model S was able to 3.1 mi/kWh, and it is a notoriously inefficient car. Maybe the constant speed at load played into its favor, but the Lucid's being less than 10% more efficient than the original Model S under any conditions is disappointing.
@@newscoulomb3705 I see how you could feel that way. I guess I just see the AWD vs RWD and extra battery weight as being bigger handicaps for the Lucid to overcome in this field of cars and am grading it on a much more generous curve than others choose to. I also have no idea just how much of a handicap AWD vs RWD is for efficiency on average so, to quote the Dude, that’s just like my opinion man :)
There was a lot of not charging enough and having to slow down to get the range needed for the next stop on this race. The rules need to be modified or you guys need to be more conservative on your calculations because slowing down is slower than waiting slightly longer to get more charge. Never once did they even charge to 80% doesn't make sense to leave early from the charger with not enough charge to drive the maximum speed. On a long trip like this you are going to use the energy anyway so just fill the battery to 80% every time until the last leg where you may only need a quick charge to finish.
Depends on your charging curve. If your peak speeds are 0 to 20% in the lucid, the only time you get above 200KW then you're going to get much more charge in a much shorter time if you can arrive with close to 0% charge. They actually only charge at 75KW at 80% so would need much more time to add less energy. Only other consideration is that part of recharging is the time you waste coming of the highway and driving to a charger. Often the EA stations were a few minutes off at a Walmart so there's a playoff between maximizing the charging rates by staying in low WOC vs wasting more time traveling off the highway
@@Lewis_Standing Don't get me wrong I understand this was a race so Im not necessarily saying one should charge to 80% but I am saying probably better to not rely on a buffer and just plan on 5% to 10% arrival so you don't loose any time to having to slow down especially if you are using CCS which is farther off the highway and longer handshakes to start charging. Absolutely no reason to leave 5 minuets earlier to arrive in the buffer when arriving at 5% is negligible of time wasted or gained.
9 днів тому
I want to try this route with my 2023 Tesla model 3 rwd short range.. I know my car can road trip as I took it back in June from San Diego to Banff Canada.
speed limits in the NY area are kinda low, and i think these EV assume that youll drive somewhat close to the speed limit. while in reality youre doing 15 over all the time.
@robertoconnor3683 lol. my gauge said 1/4 and predicted range was 138, so I was certain I could go 90 miles. Turns out the range in my ICE up a 3% grade into a constant 10 mph headwind was 80
They did a good job they had to push the car. I think they would have finished 3rd or 4th. Lucid does need to fix the charging curve and push it a little more. Model 3 shouldn't beat a Lucid for the price.
Hindsight sucks, but it would have been faster to just 120V charge at that Burger King for a 1-2hrs to get to that EVGo. It would have only let you beat the genesis, but wouldn't have been too far behind the EQS I bet.
You should have stayed on the 150 until you dropped off 175kw. I know you were at 14% when you passed the green charging station, but it still may have let you skip the charger you were trying to go to. The one thing is; always change your charger stop if you need to stop earlier. How many miles you get for the time charging. You could have gone to the next charging station and kept a closer position just by staying charging a bit longer. I think you guys could have skipped at least one of the charging stops if you took 10 to 15 minutes longer. Why did Dave phone almost die when Kyle looked up your location?
Yes, even more simply put: when did you decide to unplug? What rate of charge and percent? Was it route based or would you stay plugged in as long as it's ripping?
Did you guys calculated the time lost, if so, deduct it from final time and use that … seems only fair … Also in reality you would make at least one lunch stop where you can charge that Lucid back to 90% … making it the best roadtrip car as you could easily do 700 miles with one stop … so it probably is the best roadtripping car of them all … PS we don’t have Lucid in our country yet, and it’s a car I would never consider, but it’s one of the best roadtrip cars, this race was not about roadtrips, it was just a race …
No need to sound like you need to do damage control. All the teams were taking risks and gambling. Team Lucid is just taking the brunt because so many have high expectations of that car. The car was a second place car on paper so people expected a top finish. Most everyone thought the Taycan had this covered. We thought it would take a while before it caught up with the Lucid. That happened sooner than expected. The cars I liked to watch the most during the race were the drama filled cars... So the Lucid was full of that during this race. Judgement calls killed them on this trip. Took the big gambles right out of the gate and it backfired. They ended up digging themselves out of a hole and moved near the front of the pack and then under pressure of the closing competition they made a bad call. To their defense they were working on data from previous tests and assumed they had the range. Never trust the BMS. Always stay that extra 5 minutes and have more padding than you think you will need. It is just "gas in the tank" for the next leg. The NAV in these cars were off too many times on the estimates. Stay on the hook and always get more than you think you need at the chargers. Those legs you limped really hurt you. It was hard to make up ground once you lost it unless someone else had a misfortunate situation. All of the cars other than the Model 3 appeared to really suffer a massive hit to the efficiency at these high speeds. The Lucid and Ioniq are listed on fueleconomy gov as being mega efficient, so it really is surprising how bad the efficiency is at those speeds. The Model 3 is much more efficient, but it is a smaller car. If the M3 charged like these other cars it would be amazing. Love the racing series. This was the dream car lineup. Now lets see the race with the "average EV" out there and use the onboard navigation. LOL That will be a riot.
This comment is in response to Kyle's oft-repeated mantra that, due to Lucid's exceptional efficiency, their efficiency is more adversely affected by higher speed than that of other vehicles. Considering that the Air has the lowest drag coefficient of any production vehicle, someone will have to explain to me how this even makes sense. I can see one factor that would make higher speed hurt Lucid's competitive advantage against a rival, like Porsche with a higher charging speed, and that's your practice of starting all vehicles off at a 100% state of charge. This means that, for the initial run, charging speed is no advantage. The clock wasn't running while all were charging up to 100%. However, for any given length of trip, a higher speed would shorten that part of the trip where Lucid would enjoy that "unfair" advantage. A longer trip would accomplish the same thing.
I’m also confused by that comment of Kyle’s … I think he incorrectly worded something he was trying to say. Inefficiency in a BEV is much more than coefficient of drag, of course … how a car’s drivetrain converts electrons to energy to propel the motors, tires sizes, weight, braking regen, etc., all play a part in efficiency …
People have invested heavily in Lucid Stock after believing in its tech. By mismanaging the trip and coming last, you are hurting the reputation of a company that is believed to be the EV tech leader. Dave had a full video about ditching Lucid. His hatred toward Lucid was clear when he said in Billings “game over”. He didn’t even try.
Let me guess. You have invested in lucid and are pissed that your precious EV startup isn’t as perfect as advertising makes it out to be. Dave tends to test the limits of cars just like Kyle does. It’s not about hate. Dave has said multiple times that he actually likes the Ford Lightning and that it would be the EV truck he would buy if he was in the market for one but ran out of charge in the Lightning during the pickup coast to coast race.
One question I have do we have any history on battery deg for Taycan at thse high speed charging sesions? I wonder if you trade off deg for speed on Taycan. So a 10 year old Taycan needs a battery replacement?
I think most people are not going to risk being 0%, I think most EV drivers roll in much higher tha 10%, but for this challange getting there at 10% (like a 10% challange) makes most since. If weather or elevation happens you have a 10% buffer. If you are targeting 0% and expecting buffer that is bad on the driver IMHO. I think moving forwared the challenge should use the 10% challange base line.
Nah - we let experts in the cars decide the arrival SoC suited to that car. This isn’t intended to be a customer representative road trip - it’s about getting the car from A to B in the fastest time possible
When you get some experience road tripping and knows your car you can run it lower. I target below 10% and have been to 4% multiple times, and I drive a Kia EV6 which doesn’t have good route planning. I would agree that most people wouldn’t aim for 0% but it’s reasonable to go lower than 10%. As Kyle always says, you can just slow down a bit if you feel it’s too low.
@tomm5936 oh I agree if you know your car. We have been running ours lower each time our q8 e-tron we keep driving in lower to home. We have been down below 10% several times. I just think most non-experts will not chance lower.
Yep, I target at least 5% minimum to charger/destination, if not 10%. Saving a couple minutes of charging vs the money and hour+ of getting a tow truck isn't worth it in the slightest.
I’m not sure it’s fair to say Licid has no fault in running out. I get you want to maintain good relationships but every other car was in the same situation and none of them ran out Clearly there’s a gap in Lucid’s BMS
I think you can rely on the buffer being there once, as it's charged when the car is at 100% The more charging to none 100% figures the less certain you can be that a buffer will be there and that the SOC displayed is accurate.
There’s some semantics here that are important. If the Lucid engineer said “target 0% arrival and use the buffer” that’s significantly different than targeting a below zero arrival and relying on the buffer which is what was done.
Not the group that drove the Lucid Air, the group that screwed the Lucid Air. The Lucid Air, if driven correctly, should have come in second behind the Porsche.
Former Lucid owner here who returned it for too many software and design bugs nearly 2 years ago. It was released for sale far too early with insufficient evaluation. If you plan to buy Gravity, beware they may do same on this model too.
To my mind, all of this talk about whether the team let the car down, or the car let the team down, is nonsense. The car doesn't care whether it wins or loses, and the team has no vested interest in the outcome. Only Lucid the company has a dog in this fight. In anticipation of the race, Lucid told the team to take advantage of the buffer. Then, right when the team would have been the most motivated to do so, there was no buffer. So, this means that Lucid let Lucid down. After the dirty trick they apparently played during the race to Vegas, I'm laughing at the poetic justice.
I watched all 10 hours - you guys did a great job pushing all the EV's to their limits ... Well done and a big thanks for making it so entertaining ...Love Out of Spec !
I watched all of it too. Well, except for the Acura team's long talk when they finished. I don't have any interest in what they had to say. I've driven across country in a gasoline burning car several of times.
Dave’s phone died too? He really is Out Of Charge Dave. 😂
Sorry to hear that there was so much negative response. Should be taken for what is - a fun, entertaining event with helpful information. The competition just adds to the effect. Thumbs up to all involved.
I think the editing made it look like they ignored it and ran out of battery, the buffer failed in this case
Ignore the comments from people who were angry. The Dave curse is just funny to laugh at, at the end of the day the Lucid would've been neck and neck with the Ioniq6 which really speaks more to it's charging curve than anything else. You guys did great, it wouldn't have change the outcome by more than a few %.
angry? we certainly can find some stupid things to be angry about these days.
Great video, a fantastic debrief. Clears up a lot of questions. Yes a few mistakes that ended up costly; however, with some better decisions the Lucid would have been second. This race was the most informative compared to all past races. Please post all the spreadsheets, would be a great contribution to the whole EV community and manufacturers. Thanks for all the work, dedication and time sacrificed for all the teams and other that contributed to this epic race/test. 🎉
Kyle, after hearing one of the Autel guys pointing out during the trip that it would be better if there was more Autel charging stations on I90, I can't help but wonder how much good could be done it each of the cars in the race also had an executive from that manufacture. These Executives could learn some things by watching your videos but if they spent 48 plus hours in their own company's vehicle, they would feel the stress and the excitement from the highs and the lows of this trip. It could also be a great ideal to have some one from each of the charging companies (Electrify America, Charge Point, EV Go, ect). They should have to deal with the charging problems in person.
Team Lucid did a great job! They found the limits of the car under an extreme test of the car. Definitely a hardcore test with hardcore enthusiasts behind the wheel of the Lucid. Nothing to be ashamed about. That was an excellent test showing what the car is capable of. Great job, Alex, Shane, and Dave!
I have a 2020 Taycan 4S with 94,000 miles and 90% SoH reported by BMS. Still charges at 260kW to about 55%, it’s a road trip monster. I have about 60% DCFC. Picked up the car with 22miles. Porsche knows how to manage a battery.
That’s awesome that you’ve actually put some good miles on it. How’s the reliability been? I’ve been considering a used 4S.
so essentially what happened was the lucid team flew too close to the sun, but in order to win a race you have to fly very close and take risk. Of course it wasn't the operator's intention to get burnt by the sun, but these things can happen when you are pushing hard. Good job kyle and the team!
I thoroughly enjoyed the series and learned a ton, including how amazing the Lucid Air is. We all know where the Lucid was slated to place, and frankly it was more interesting to see what does happen in a real world scenario when you cut it too close. Great job. Seriously.
I think the biggest lesson here is that you should never trust the buffer (below 0%) because the buffer can bite back. BMS sway was definitely a factor here with the non-stop use across many charge cycles. It only gets worse the longer the race is since the battery hasn't gotten any rest periods to calibrate charge level. I think teams in future EV races should take this into consideration, you might be able to go to 0% early in the race, but not later on.
I really enjoyed this series and am looking forward to all of these discussions with the teams. In a hypothetical scenario, the worst the Lucid would have finished would have been 4th. Given the tight race between the Model 3, Ioniq 6, and Lucid at the end, I would have really liked to have seen the actually placing but unfortunately it didn't work out.
Great job to all the teams! What a fun and informative race. I learned a lot. I’m a new ev owner (ioniq5) and am absorbing information about ev’s at the rate of a grade schooler. Big thanks for your videos!
The RV plug was likely a TT-30 connection. They do sell RV TT-30P 30 Amp Plug to 50 Amp EVSE adaptors. Good one to have if you anticipate road tripping your EV and parking in RV parks.
Yep but you have to be careful, there are many cars that wont even pull over 12A on a TT-30p @120v. Best case you get 24A @ 120v which is still not even 3kW, but theres only a handful of cars that will do it and you definitely need the right adapters to get the car to do it (like Tesla). Smart to have on a trip through northern canada, probably not gonna be in the car on a race like this.
@tazeat those 14-30 adaptors give 2 bridged hots, which seems like a bad idea. anyway, these days even the cheap state and ntnl park campgrounds have 14-50 240v pedestals
Loved the series. Watched almost all of each episode. I figured the Lucid would finish behind the porsche. Its pretty impressive that an EV can somewhat keep up with a fossil car across the US.
For the negative comments, post the times and challenge another team to beat the time/challenge. Your team has showcased the to the world how to push everything on the market for free! The in’s & out’s showcased are priceless. Between your team/channel, Brandon, & Dad’s channel is the only reason I have a EV!!! Awesome close out challenge for the year!
Normal folks are going to use the range to pick a stop where they want to stop rather than where the car needs to stop. Most will likely start the day full, stop for lunch where they can get a deeper charge, and then finish the day at a location where they can get a good charge to set them up for the next day. Few want t go more than 600 miles a day. And even if they do, a stop for food every 4 hours makes for a quite comfortable trip.
I love my Mach-E, even if Kyle hates it, but I would be happy to do the long trips in a Lucid.
Finally, I think it should be clear that the car had been warning about low battery, and everything was otherwise fine down to zero. It was only pushing into the buffer that led to the issue, and then, only after most of two days of constant driving with no breaks.
if they waited 4-5 min at the last charger, they could have made it, yeah the buffer issue
Your guy’s videos have saved me on a Roadtrip to and through Italy as you’ve teaching all of is how and what to do during extreme moments.
Let me tell you, that at one time at 2.30am on a Monday in Italy, my wife very much appreciated my nerdy knowhow obtained watching your videos. 😂😂😂
So thanks for that! My UA-cam-watching-car-videos-time hasn’t been frowned upon since. 😂
The races are one of the most fun things to watch on UA-cam! People in the race comments are way too critical from the outside looking in. You guys did a great job and little errors are bound to happen with a 3000 mile trip!
Great podcast! Great dudes! (Including Kyle!)
Watched all ten+ hours! Mamma Mia, I can’t believe I watched the whole thing. 😁
Looks like you got another 10 or so hours of debriefing videos, if this is any indication.
Will be interesting. I’m here for it all!
If no teams had pushed the limits it wouldn't have been nearly as fun to watch. And hell these odd negative comments are still helping to boost the engagement.
Thanks for all the effort guys!
It would be cool to have a replay or capture of the tracking app you used during the race for these reviews, it would help us follow along visually with the map. A quick timelapse could make a good short that could be included at the end of the the last video or something too. This was a cool race, Thanks! :)
Sometimes you've got to roll the dice and see what happens. Didn't pay off this time but the next time would be insane. Great effort for all
The guys did a good job. I have a lucid and it was a fun "race" to watch. It is what it is. Great job guys!
THANKS! This made what happened with the Lucid much more clear!
thanks to out of spec who sent my T shirt for the I-90 surge
I need to apologize to Dave. I was hating on team Lucid but I think the regen is too aggressive so vs the free wheeling Taycan it was too busy phase changing kinetic energy into the battery then back to thrust, that's not good for efficiency! No cruise and draft every chance you can is the fastest most efficient way but hard to do hours on end. Watched all 4 episodes on 1.75x and got a lot done on those Saturdays.
For me the Lucid team was the most entertain, well prepared, most aggressive strategy by far. Great Job and thank you all of you in the team!!!! The Lucid is not fully baked yet and overrated for now.
I appreciate Alex's honesty on their mistakes.
Story: So Kyle’s dad, how did 3 different all electric cars you were navigating end up running out of electricity when none of the other vehicles in each of those cross country treks ran out of electricity? Was it the car? Was it the team? Was it someone in each of the teams? Does lightning strike 3 times in a row? Your Out of Spec viewers would like to know.
As an Engineer, I would say that you don’t really know the limitations until you find the limitations.
One helpful test that you could do before a race is to test the range at 80 mph before you begin the race.
everyone is talking about the strategy of buffers, curves, time at charger vs avg speed. but what this series really showed is that it's still all about luck with challenged charging infrastructure that does a piss-poor job of communicating status
i watched this all and enjoyed all of it
As a Lucid owner, I too find this car so comfortable to drive.
I enjoyed this series a lot. The Lucid team did a great job.
it was a great video series always enjoy them
Watched the whole Surge. Great job guys.
it was definitely a great experiment to record for all of us to see…we know for sure the EV movement has improved much over the last 10 years. The infrastructure needs to catch up, too, but overall it seems that most EVs can be road tripped. thanks for the great commentary and entertainment.
Great job guys. Thanks for
I really like the lucid in this surge type contest. I just wish the charging curve was a little bit better because I feel like if you guys could have gotten up to like 65 or 75% at almost every charge stop. It would have been dramatically better in terms of the finish because I felt like in terms of the electric vehicles it was supposed to be the Porsche and the lucid battling for first and second. Maybe the model 3 taking third and then everybody else. So I really had high hopes for the lucid but I have to say the ionic 6 surprise me. That being said, great video and grade series. Keep up the great work and I'll catch y'all on the next one and have a good one.
Great race, maybe two required 8-hour motel stops, at the team's discretion, level two charges, and then only two drivers needed?
Team Lucid may not have won but Alex gets first place for the sickest moustache
Congrats to the Amazing knew Tesla Model 3.
Loved the tripple video & what a great balanced video or all the cars.
Thanks so much for your exhausting weekend, amazing education for us in such an entertaining format.
How about a Europe version, like Norway to Portugal, include chinese EVs , should be fun!
My longest drive in one day is 770 miles. For that distance, a Lucid would be great.
Re: typical road trips and charging habits, the Lucid's performance sounds fine to me. When you're not in a race and you have big range, by the time you need to charge you're ready for a longer stop. Starting the day at 100% and driving 450 miles on the highway, we're talking 6 hours on the road at that point. It's probably time for a longish bathroom break and a succulent Chinese meal. By the time that's done, a Lucid would be back to 80-90%. From there, another 350-400 miles is just about all the driving I want to do in a day, maybe one more charging/snack stop if I'm close to my destination. Realistically these charge times are as good as getting gas for most use cases, as long as the chargers are somewhere with amenities.
Great work by team lucid. Mistakes made but owned. Perhaps the comfort of the car lulled the occupants into a slightly less lucid state.
Question: Kyle's comments about height of the occupants made me wonder if occupant weight might have also impacted efficiency? Isn't it something like 1-2% range hit per 100 lbs?
I wish the spreadsheet had a column to calculate the average charge speed for each stop rather than only peak. It would be a quick way to compare charging efficiency of the different cars at different stops.
I sure hope people aren't getting angry over this, I mean come on this is all for fun in the end.
Realistically, I think if every team had perfectly optimized, it looks like the lucid was battling the Plaid for 4th place. That is no fault to this team. We can all say we would have done something different now, but hindsight is 20/20.
Is the answer as simple as the fastest refueling car wins? Can you show a chart with the total energy taken in divided by total refueling time for each car? I'm guessing gas car is on top and Taycan is second - would be cool to see the ranking of the others. Thanks.
Does Dave secretly work for the oil/gas industry? 😊. Thanks for the update video OOS. ⚡⚡
Dig the video lucid rocks
Can you post your spreadsheets. I often take trips from mid Missouri to Washington state. I know the charging infrastructure along I70 since I also make trips to Colorado. I have no problems taking my ID4 to Colorado. But the infrastructure from Kansas City to Sioux Falls isn’t great. The new EA in Sioux Falls is really nice. But, when you travel west along I90 is incredibly bad with head winds. You absolutely have to drive at 65 to make it to the next station. The stretch from Gillette is terrible. There is one 50 kW station in Sheridan. I am glad you did Seattle to Boston, that was useful information. I think if you do Boston to Seattle, the race would be far more challenging.
Yeah, too bad that they didn’t all swap cars and do the Surge back from Boston to Seattle in the same ten cars after a couple of days of good rest in Boston ….
Just wish I could afford one!! Great Job everyone!!!!
I have died 3x in my Chevy Bolt EUV. Got towed once to Chevy dealer and DC Fast charged no problem. Other two times used my Expedition and pulled it to AC chargers and no problem charging.
I am considering a lucid. I would have loved to see where the team would have finished if they hadn’t run out of juice. I had high hopes for it.
Thank you for the video. Are you able to share the log spreadsheet?
Happy Bielated Birthday Kyle
It's a great 4 part video of conditions put to limit people 99% of time would charge slower and soak up the scenery so all cars would be about same
Great race! maybe next time it will work.
One of my main question about this issue is why never calculate the number of kwh consumed per 100 miles? You know how much your car supposes to have and making sure the speed, climate and hilly country....but for my previous roadtrips from 2000 to 3400 miles, this is the way I guest my travel!
Keep up the good work
Next road trip ; race or not, don't forget the wall charger cables.
Who could be mad at this team, they came up with a plan and at the end of the day it didn't quite work the way they expected. They were trying to do the best they could, no one can fault them for how this went down. Get a life folks.
This is my life.Rent an apt. retired alone...Too much info. Enjoy it all.
Where is Francie?
Pretty sure she's out of spec.
She posted on X that she left OOS in August.
@@ALRinaldi😮 oh no, do you know why?
@@chaudcolaInflation.
@@chaudcolahow long did you think non growing low view counts were sustainable for? I thought she was a great host but just didn’t click with growing the audience
Time to take the experience and do the reverse I-90 Surge (Boston to Seattle) next time?
Given the results, it doesn’t appear the Supercharger network provided that much of an overall advantage. The main advantage the Teslas had was they were not limited to using Superchargers.
I came to the same conclusion. And I think that's a good thing. Options are growing.
The only reason was the absence of V3 superchargers on the northern routes
I disagree with your strategy, with suboptimal arrival guestimations, over charge. You constantly bit yourself having to slow, having to turn back, running out of charge, it just doesn't pan out on these races. Give yourself the buffer and just sit at that max speed. Ryan has the right idea. edit: Not blaming the car, though I do believe the range estimates appear less than optimal (like many EVs), I just think there was room for improvement in strategy based on what we as a viewer saw. Definitely not sabotage, just missed opportunities.
Aptera should partitcpate with the 1000 mile battery version and see if having the highest efficiency puts it ahead assuming it also has the highest MPH charging*. * This might have to be an improved charging capability version.
Interesting the KWh delivered between Victor and Fredonia shows the BMS mistake.
Thanks for the run. I was definitely disappointed in the Lucid Air (not counting the running out). With the range, efficiency, and peak charging speeds, I was expecting better.
48:32 And to be clear, I'm not criticizing the team. On paper, the Lucid should have done much better, but as we know, paper doesn't always match reality.
Lucid seems to have really leaned heavily into efficiency but their battery + charging tech is not as class-leading as you would suspect. Team Lucid was in between the Model 3 and Ioniq 6 when it died in New York. On paper, the Lucid should have run away with it but the reality is that between the car's limitations and the mistakes from the team, they were coming up short.
@@newscoulomb3705 I could be wrong, but, I think every car that had a higher miles per kilowatt hour than the Lucid was both rear wheel drive and toting much smaller batteries than it was. So, in that context, as both a larger battery vehicle and AWD, I find the Lucid’s 3.3 mi/ kwh efficiency is actually really impressive.
@@djcali001 Sure, I'm just saying that, based on Lucid's own numbers, it underperformed. Also, the original Model S was able to 3.1 mi/kWh, and it is a notoriously inefficient car. Maybe the constant speed at load played into its favor, but the Lucid's being less than 10% more efficient than the original Model S under any conditions is disappointing.
@@newscoulomb3705 I see how you could feel that way. I guess I just see the AWD vs RWD and extra battery weight as being bigger handicaps for the Lucid to overcome in this field of cars and am grading it on a much more generous curve than others choose to. I also have no idea just how much of a handicap AWD vs RWD is for efficiency on average so, to quote the Dude, that’s just like my opinion man :)
There was a lot of not charging enough and having to slow down to get the range needed for the next stop on this race. The rules need to be modified or you guys need to be more conservative on your calculations because slowing down is slower than waiting slightly longer to get more charge. Never once did they even charge to 80% doesn't make sense to leave early from the charger with not enough charge to drive the maximum speed. On a long trip like this you are going to use the energy anyway so just fill the battery to 80% every time until the last leg where you may only need a quick charge to finish.
Depends on your charging curve. If your peak speeds are 0 to 20% in the lucid, the only time you get above 200KW then you're going to get much more charge in a much shorter time if you can arrive with close to 0% charge.
They actually only charge at 75KW at 80% so would need much more time to add less energy.
Only other consideration is that part of recharging is the time you waste coming of the highway and driving to a charger. Often the EA stations were a few minutes off at a Walmart so there's a playoff between maximizing the charging rates by staying in low WOC vs wasting more time traveling off the highway
@@Lewis_Standing Don't get me wrong I understand this was a race so Im not necessarily saying one should charge to 80% but I am saying probably better to not rely on a buffer and just plan on 5% to 10% arrival so you don't loose any time to having to slow down especially if you are using CCS which is farther off the highway and longer handshakes to start charging. Absolutely no reason to leave 5 minuets earlier to arrive in the buffer when arriving at 5% is negligible of time wasted or gained.
I want to try this route with my 2023 Tesla model 3 rwd short range.. I know my car can road trip as I took it back in June from San Diego to Banff Canada.
speed limits in the NY area are kinda low, and i think these EV assume that youll drive somewhat close to the speed limit. while in reality youre doing 15 over all the time.
You should add a column that calculates the average speed after the arrival and departure times.
And average efficiency
Not holding your dad accountable for his aggressive approach is the problem, at no point would any gas car owner run into the buffer of the battery
right... ICE owners never run on fumes
@@Reittihw Worked at a gas station and ran out of gas going to work below E.
@robertoconnor3683 lol. my gauge said 1/4 and predicted range was 138, so I was certain I could go 90 miles. Turns out the range in my ICE up a 3% grade into a constant 10 mph headwind was 80
They did a good job they had to push the car. I think they would have finished 3rd or 4th. Lucid does need to fix the charging curve and push it a little more. Model 3 shouldn't beat a Lucid for the price.
Hindsight sucks, but it would have been faster to just 120V charge at that Burger King for a 1-2hrs to get to that EVGo. It would have only let you beat the genesis, but wouldn't have been too far behind the EQS I bet.
You should have stayed on the 150 until you dropped off 175kw. I know you were at 14% when you passed the green charging station, but it still may have let you skip the charger you were trying to go to. The one thing is; always change your charger stop if you need to stop earlier. How many miles you get for the time charging. You could have gone to the next charging station and kept a closer position just by staying charging a bit longer. I think you guys could have skipped at least one of the charging stops if you took 10 to 15 minutes longer. Why did Dave phone almost die when Kyle looked up your location?
Yes, even more simply put: when did you decide to unplug? What rate of charge and percent? Was it route based or would you stay plugged in as long as it's ripping?
@radgeh5924 Kyle said, stay plugged in if you are still pulling full kw. They unplugged before it came off the max charging speed for the charger.
Did you guys calculated the time lost, if so, deduct it from final time and use that … seems only fair … Also in reality you would make at least one lunch stop where you can charge that Lucid back to 90% … making it the best roadtrip car as you could easily do 700 miles with one stop … so it probably is the best roadtripping car of them all … PS we don’t have Lucid in our country yet, and it’s a car I would never consider, but it’s one of the best roadtrip cars, this race was not about roadtrips, it was just a race …
No need to sound like you need to do damage control. All the teams were taking risks and gambling. Team Lucid is just taking the brunt because so many have high expectations of that car. The car was a second place car on paper so people expected a top finish. Most everyone thought the Taycan had this covered. We thought it would take a while before it caught up with the Lucid. That happened sooner than expected.
The cars I liked to watch the most during the race were the drama filled cars... So the Lucid was full of that during this race. Judgement calls killed them on this trip. Took the big gambles right out of the gate and it backfired. They ended up digging themselves out of a hole and moved near the front of the pack and then under pressure of the closing competition they made a bad call. To their defense they were working on data from previous tests and assumed they had the range. Never trust the BMS. Always stay that extra 5 minutes and have more padding than you think you will need. It is just "gas in the tank" for the next leg. The NAV in these cars were off too many times on the estimates. Stay on the hook and always get more than you think you need at the chargers. Those legs you limped really hurt you. It was hard to make up ground once you lost it unless someone else had a misfortunate situation.
All of the cars other than the Model 3 appeared to really suffer a massive hit to the efficiency at these high speeds. The Lucid and Ioniq are listed on fueleconomy gov as being mega efficient, so it really is surprising how bad the efficiency is at those speeds. The Model 3 is much more efficient, but it is a smaller car. If the M3 charged like these other cars it would be amazing.
Love the racing series. This was the dream car lineup. Now lets see the race with the "average EV" out there and use the onboard navigation. LOL That will be a riot.
Thank God. I have 3 hours left. This will do. 😂
Netflix could play Directors Cut series like F!.
No
This comment is in response to Kyle's oft-repeated mantra that, due to Lucid's exceptional efficiency, their efficiency is more adversely affected by higher speed than that of other vehicles. Considering that the Air has the lowest drag coefficient of any production vehicle, someone will have to explain to me how this even makes sense. I can see one factor that would make higher speed hurt Lucid's competitive advantage against a rival, like Porsche with a higher charging speed, and that's your practice of starting all vehicles off at a 100% state of charge. This means that, for the initial run, charging speed is no advantage. The clock wasn't running while all were charging up to 100%. However, for any given length of trip, a higher speed would shorten that part of the trip where Lucid would enjoy that "unfair" advantage. A longer trip would accomplish the same thing.
I’m also confused by that comment of Kyle’s … I think he incorrectly worded something he was trying to say. Inefficiency in a BEV is much more than coefficient of drag, of course … how a car’s drivetrain converts electrons to energy to propel the motors, tires sizes, weight, braking regen, etc., all play a part in efficiency …
People have invested heavily in Lucid Stock after believing in its tech. By mismanaging the trip and coming last, you are hurting the reputation of a company that is believed to be the EV tech leader.
Dave had a full video about ditching Lucid. His hatred toward Lucid was clear when he said in Billings “game over”. He didn’t even try.
Let me guess. You have invested in lucid and are pissed that your precious EV startup isn’t as perfect as advertising makes it out to be.
Dave tends to test the limits of cars just like Kyle does. It’s not about hate. Dave has said multiple times that he actually likes the Ford Lightning and that it would be the EV truck he would buy if he was in the market for one but ran out of charge in the Lightning during the pickup coast to coast race.
There was no need to go aggressive because of the rice. Not everyone is built to compete
One question I have do we have any history on battery deg for Taycan at thse high speed charging sesions? I wonder if you trade off deg for speed on Taycan. So a 10 year old Taycan needs a battery replacement?
36:20 It made it
I think most people are not going to risk being 0%, I think most EV drivers roll in much higher tha 10%, but for this challange getting there at 10% (like a 10% challange) makes most since. If weather or elevation happens you have a 10% buffer. If you are targeting 0% and expecting buffer that is bad on the driver IMHO. I think moving forwared the challenge should use the 10% challange base line.
Nah - we let experts in the cars decide the arrival SoC suited to that car. This isn’t intended to be a customer representative road trip - it’s about getting the car from A to B in the fastest time possible
The decision to keep pushing it to 0% and BELOW was a major self own.
When you get some experience road tripping and knows your car you can run it lower. I target below 10% and have been to 4% multiple times, and I drive a Kia EV6 which doesn’t have good route planning. I would agree that most people wouldn’t aim for 0% but it’s reasonable to go lower than 10%. As Kyle always says, you can just slow down a bit if you feel it’s too low.
@tomm5936 oh I agree if you know your car. We have been running ours lower each time our q8 e-tron we keep driving in lower to home. We have been down below 10% several times. I just think most non-experts will not chance lower.
Yep, I target at least 5% minimum to charger/destination, if not 10%. Saving a couple minutes of charging vs the money and hour+ of getting a tow truck isn't worth it in the slightest.
Goodbye Out of Spec. Your support of Trump and worship of Musk is distasteful and disgusting.
Trump support?
Support of Trump? Worship of Musk?…
Are you high?
@@dillonh321 nope, Kyle supports Trump
@@evanhil02
What makes you say that? Where has her indicated that?
✌🏻
Where's Francie? I miss her!
She left OOS
There is concern that lucid will go out of business. What do you think?
Only if the Saudis stop backing the company … lucid is stained by the saudis like Tesla is stained by musk
Fire him !
I’m not sure it’s fair to say Licid has no fault in running out. I get you want to maintain good relationships but every other car was in the same situation and none of them ran out Clearly there’s a gap in Lucid’s BMS
I think you can rely on the buffer being there once, as it's charged when the car is at 100%
The more charging to none 100% figures the less certain you can be that a buffer will be there and that the SOC displayed is accurate.
There’s some semantics here that are important. If the Lucid engineer said “target 0% arrival and use the buffer” that’s significantly different than targeting a below zero arrival and relying on the buffer which is what was done.
Kyle, you need better internet at the hub.
Not the group that drove the Lucid Air, the group that screwed the Lucid Air. The Lucid Air, if driven correctly, should have come in second behind the Porsche.
Former Lucid owner here who returned it for too many software and design bugs nearly 2 years ago. It was released for sale far too early with insufficient evaluation. If you plan to buy Gravity, beware they may do same on this model too.
To my mind, all of this talk about whether the team let the car down, or the car let the team down, is nonsense. The car doesn't care whether it wins or loses, and the team has no vested interest in the outcome. Only Lucid the company has a dog in this fight. In anticipation of the race, Lucid told the team to take advantage of the buffer. Then, right when the team would have been the most motivated to do so, there was no buffer. So, this means that Lucid let Lucid down. After the dirty trick they apparently played during the race to Vegas, I'm laughing at the poetic justice.