Great review! Good to see that your burr seasoning conclusions from the niche were replicated on this. I find the speed dial numbering criticism a little strange. Every reviewer has mentioned it so far, but I find it much easier for my wife and I to remember "8 for spro, 3 for drip", than "1250 for spro, 450 for drip". I suppose the actual numbers would be more important for coffee pros who are comparing different grinders, but I think the 1-9 numbering is simpler for the average user. Can't wait to hear your findings on the impact of RPM!
Unless they add PID RPM control. The RPM is only rough estimation anyways, it will change with different beans and grind settings. Or even your house's actual voltage. Watching the RPM stabilize and trying to slow feed the beans totally could be the future cut edge for coffee nerds. Love to see some techniques and expensive machines just for that!
I likes everything about this grinder as you point out - I also drink mostly single origin light/medium roast . The gander looks to be very well made, with no fluff. What did make me gasp was the price. I suppose if it lasts over the long haul it would be worth it. It however borders on the starting price of commercial grinders.
Awesome review as always sir Sprometheus! I think a great showdown video would be against the DF64 also equipped with ssp multipurpose burrs, maybe even a blind taste test? This can show us if spending more is actually worth it for our coffee experience.
I've had DF64s and I have the P64 with the Unimodal burrs, unfortunately I never had the same burrs at the same time in both to directly compare the DF64 with Lagom P64. I think the Lagom P64 is my favorite grinder, it's got a nice quiet motor which I like, low retention without having to mess around with bellows, it's consistent and just works nicely and pretty neatly, It has has very nice accessories it comes with it. Should come with much better quality control and better alignment vs the DF64 and looks much nicer. Variable RPM is useful especially if doing coarser brew methods, you can get more body and maybe more bitterness at higher RPM and more clarity at lower RPM. If you're on a budget the DF64 can possibly get you close or very similar results but you'll need to make sure the alignment is good and maybe mod the de-clumper and add in some other mods like a cup holder angle mod to make sure it doesn't make a mess. A properly functioning DF64 should be very similar to the Lagom P64 at max RPM (which is 1400RPM I believe, same as DF64). Whether the nicer / neater workflow, higher quality, variable RPM, Better looks and accessories are worth 3x the price to you is up to you.
Love your review. Finding your channel a while ago has been such a treat. Keep it up. Your and James' review of this grinder have convinced me a while ago to save for this fine piece of equipment. Have a great day!
Id love to see a shot comparison between your current set up and your set up from a few years ago. grinder, prep, espresso machine etc.. just to see how much your shots have actually improved or evolved over the years
Interesting idea. I know for sure my shots have gotten much much better over the years. So much so that I’ve often considered re-doing some of my original videos in my current setup and more modern thought processes.
I've had the same grinder and burrs for a couple of years now and am as over the moon happy today as the day it arrived. I find this combo excels (espresso) in both black and milk. And by the way, that beans dosing cup fits perfectly, base down, into the dosing funnel hole for near-silent grinding.
Hey Steven, I'm in the market and pretty close to making this purchase. I've seen some clogging/jamming videos on social media, and I wonder if you've encountered similar issues with this grinder. Maybe they were not keeping up with maintenance, but it was hard to tell. Cheers!
@@MrAndrew60 Hi Andrew. Zero issues here, and I clean the burrs infrequently (~6-12 monthly). My grinder has never jammed. Although if I don't give the beans a quick spray with water the grinds will come out in "logs". But RDT and clean, fluffy grinds ensue. For reference, I am using the SSP Unimodel Espresso burrs. Hope that helps.
i have p64 + HU burrs i mainly use them for espresso drinks, i always do a small sip of the espresso prior making my latte. the amount of detail i get from the extraction is eye opening
I've had mine for a year or so with the same burrs and it's a joy to use every day. Just perfect for pourover. The build and workflow just add to the overall nice experience with this grinder. I also started making espresso at home with it recently and it's very capable, switching between the two is a breeze. I will say though that I plan to put a more traditional flat burr next to it for those fuller bodied Espresso shots.
@@JD_Therapy 7-8.5 to give a very broad range depending on dose and coffee, mostly around 7.5. Mostly Kalita with 15-24g doses. Also depends on your technique, I usually do 2-3 main pours. I don't know how comparable it is for this grinder. I have the SSP unimodals but even those have different versions/models. For espresso, I have to grind around or below 1 with these burrs.
@@christophkrenn9985 perfect, that's my go to, Kalita with doses of 14 or 19g, I love my comandante but sometimes I need that assistance if Im in a rush or don't feel like grinding
@@JD_Therapy I feel bad for my Comandante, it usually decorates the shelf these days. But it's a nice grinder to take traveling, I wouldn't want to miss it :)
Nice video. Was great to see you got the MP/unimodal burrs and do a review on it with those (Hoffman and Kyle Rowsell both did with the HU burrs). I have the p64 with MP burrs coming next month to sit next to my niche and have the same expectations as you, great to hear it delivered. It’s interesting to hear the videos from people in Europe and North America comment on price of this grinder, especially when the niche is so often part of the convo. In Australia, they’re not too different, I paid around $1800 AUD for my niche and ~$2200 for my p64. Option O only sell direct for this product in Australia, so maybe a saving there but seems we’re paying a lot more for a niche too. Cheers for the video mate!
I agree, in Australia the direct marketing model of Lagom makes it much more attractive. My P64 was due to arrive in April but is delayed - I am eagerly awaiting it's arrival.
@@ianlock4552 oh no, don't tell me that... I hadn't heard anything about delays from option-o yet so was thinking i was nearly in the clear for it to be on time...(mid june)
@@rand9176 Hopefully yours is running on time. I got an email (arrived about when my grinder was due to arrive) which informed me of the delay. I expect advice in next week about whether it is delayed further or whether it has been dispatched.
@@Sprometheus I think this machine is more function over looks which is fantastic but I do hope we can find a way past the spray bottle. It’s a band-aid, not a solution.
I have this.... cost a pretty penny..... but I plan to keep forever.... I had eureka facile 50mm for a few months while I waited....for the p64... The p64 is a really beautiful capable machine IMO
There’s a lot of innovation happening in the 64mm burr space right now. A lot of grinder manufacturers are shifting to 64 flats for home use. So you’ll likely see a ton of cool stuff happening that world in the next few years.
@@HappyAccidentVideos My guess is that it won't be long before there are companies putting out decent 64mm ceramic burr machines to keep the costs down. And soon...passable Chinese SSP knockoffs for well under half the price
They just need to come back in stock, I check Prima for used units every morning. The wait is killing me. I plan on purchasing with high uniformity burrs, I want that nectar mouth feel.
Very interesting review, it looks like this grinder solves a lot of the problems many people have with the Turin DF64 (which I still really love for the grind quality), but with a little more clean and thoughtful design. I'll consider it for my next setup. Thanks as always for your thoughtful videos.
Pretty sure Df64 is an knock off of the Lagom P64 it's a shame everyone seems to know of DF64 but not so many know the p64 but I guess the different price points contributed to that. Df64 is definitely more accessible.
Great review! I’ve had my P64 with the SSP Unimodal burrs for about a year now and I’m absolutely loving it. It’s great to work with and suits my taste preferences very well. Generally speaking I do pretty much 100% light roasted (primarily Nordic roasts) origin specialty coffee and approximately 80% pour over and 20% espresso. I love the brightness and transparency. For espresso, it took some experimenting, but what I ended up doing most of the time is pulling slightly longer (1:3) shots with a very gentle pressure profile on my ACS Vesuvius. First an 8 second pre-infusion at 2 bars, a gentle ramp up to 8 bars, then back down to 6 bars before the end of the shot with a total brew time of 34 seconds. The result is an incredibly sweet, intense and fruity flavour profile - it’s like bean juice! If I were buying it today I’d at least have to consider a DF64 instead to save some money. Probably nowhere near as well built but I’ve heard great things about it nonetheless.
@@gregyoshida4466 I used to have a setup like that, with separate grinders for brew and espresso. In one way it’s nice not to have to readjust when switching methods, but it takes a lot of space and you have to spend more if you want top quality for both methods. One of the reasons I got the P64 was actually to be able to use one single grinder at home for all my needs. And it works well. I don’t do espresso very often, maybe 20% of my coffee is espresso based, and switching back and forth is not hard with the graded scale on the grinder. But I have to try to remember the last settings I used for a particular bean and since I change beans a lot there is some extra work in dialling in.
I'm about to order mines this weekend, but wasn't sure on the burr set. I like espresso mostly, but do enjoy a pour over. Should I get two sets or just stay with the unimodel?
Are there any plans to update the review with the new Mizen burrs that Option- O created? Curious to hear your thoughts on those burrs compared to the SSP burrs.
would be curious to see thoughts on the d64 as an alternative. its been positive overall but a bit of an asterisk on the build quality & out of the box performance. i just want the thing that'll be reliable cause as folks say buy once cry once
I think you are looking the fifth leg of the cat here, it really seams and is solidly built. it will last a lifetime. if I had the money I'd go directly to buy it, no second thoughts
I got it last week. I’m still discovering but so far, I’ve never had espresso as clear as the df64. Mine is completely stock. One downside is the indicator, I’m having a hard time to know what settings exactly am at.
I ordered the P64 with the new Mizen burrs, as it’s the closest option to the Lab Sweet burrs. I wonder if I’ll have to align the burrs if I’ll decide to try the MP at some point.
According to Option-o the alignment is permanent, but I got the Mizen burrs and have an older model P64, and they were a completely different thickness than the SSP MPs and required shims to work properly. But I’m assuming they’ve got that squared away on the new versions.
Finally! I’ve been waiting to hear your thoughts on the MP burrs ever since I saw you got them with the Lagom. It’s been exactly three weeks since I got my HU burrs and I really wasn’t sure if I should go with the MP instead. After watching this I’m happy to say that I’m glad I went with the HU burrs. I only drink espresso, so I can see why the MP burrs are better suited for your usage. What a massive difference compared to Mazzer’s 189D burrs! Mazzer burrs felt like making espresso on easy mode to be fair! The cups I’m getting with the HU are insane - clear, balanced, really nice body with whatever ratio I try. In regards to seasoning, I still haven’t noticed much of a difference in taste or workflow after 3kg. I have to say these don’t go well with 9bar shots, at least for me. I don’t expect you to throw yourself at the HU (or even LS) right away, but I’m curious to see them compared side by side. Thanks for the time you took to put all this together, good job!
Yeah I think a full espresso program will definitely be better with the HU, but I am very curious to try them side by side. Working on getting a set in the near future.
Some flat whites with SSP MP is totally fine. I do that everyday. Though, for something americano, can't bean the "juice-taste-like" from the SSP MP burr. I would say, get SSP MP and a decent conical grinder to complement each other.
Excellent review as always For me that I drink only espresso, black, no milk, light or medium roasts, I would choose the high uniformity burrs because, for me, texture/mouthfeel has the same worth as taste or a vibrant acidity I am going to change the stock burrs on my super jolly and your review helped me a lot to take the decision: high uniformity - multipurpose, 1 - 0
@@dimaangert No In the past, there were 2 options, high uniformity for espresso, and unimodal for brew Now, they add a third choice, multipurpose, that it's something between, practically they are for brew but you can also use it for espresso, with less texture, more clarity
And just when I thought I had my end game grinder ... (Eureka Atom 75) was thinking about getting SSP burrs, but I think I need this or the new Acaia Orbit, hope you review the Orbit when it comes out
The P-64 is so sexy and appears to be the current cheapest option for a 64 mm flat burr grinder that has it all- looks, design, ease of use. That said, I went with the DF-64 w/ SSP MP burrs instead. There are definitely less desirable features of the DF-64 compared to the P-64. But, as you pointed out, it all comes down to price- I can live with those inferior aspects if it means saving $1,400 (!) , which is the price difference between the two grinders.
Was, the Kopi Deva and Zerno will take that price as the cheapest has it all, this will be the most expensive 64mm SD grinder that has it all, well until the Orbit comes out that will also allow Gbw with a hopper. The question later this year will be your willingness to pay for the better design and craftsmanship, because the P64 is without a doubt the best and least flawed under €2000 grinder.
My wife and I are strictly a filter coffee "couple. We use a Technivorm Moccamaster and have been using a conical grinder. do you think the Logom with factory burr grinders would be good for this purpose? It is literally 99% of our coffee consumption. Many thx.
Well I guess that depends on what you’re both looking to get from your grinder. If you were to rank body, balance, sweetness and clarity from most to least important what would be the order?
Are you kidding about not liking the looks? :D Silver is the colour to get for this one. It's beautiful. Definitely a good complimentary grinder to the Niche Zero. Lagom P64 accessories aren't always colour matched, I Think sometimes they'll send out whatever they have in stock. My silver P64 came with a black magnetic collar, which I don't really mind, pleasantly surprised it was magnetic (older version didn't come with magnets!). It works very well and fits on the P64 and Monolith forks where the tall Decent brand one is a bit too wide and doesn't fit on those grinders. If you want a light 'bellows' that works for getting any extra retention out (I'd just use it when switching grind size, like for different brew methods) get a cheap silicon 'sputem cup' to use with the P64 (also works with the Niche Zero). I have the same SSP MP burrs in mine, At lower RPM, for espresso with a light roast, I've had my P64 kinda stutter, like it hesitates for a half a second (maybe less) but never stalled really, the Weber Key has done the same thing (I know you love that one lol, I've had pretty good experience with it, although I'm not a fan of the company either). I feel like I'm getting some more body out of the P64 with Unimodal (MP) burrs after it's been used for a while (after some seasoning) but it could also be due to how i'm pulling shots, the espresso machine also can have an effect. Today although I used the Weber Key not the P64, I did a test between the ECM Synchronika and La Pavoni Europiccola lever machine and found the Lever machine had a lot more body, even though brew ratio was very close. Not a conclusive test, but I've had similar results before I believe using P64 and other grinders as well. I find with those burrs the useful RPM range is kinda limited, 7 or over works well, where I can't seem to pull shots very well at lower RPM with those burrs. Maybe with the Decent espresso machine or Turboshots you can get better results. I do more regular but slow flowing 1:2 ish shots usually. Generally lower rpm = more clarity, less body (seemingly due to less fines). Even at higher RPM though the clarity is higher than any other grinder / burr set I've tried.
The design of the P64 really makes me think "what if Niche, but flat burrs?". It's the same kind of super easy to use, no-fiddling-with-bellows kind of single doser design.
Pretty much, yep. P64 is even more versatile in a way since you can use a cup or grind into the portafilter (without a 3rd party accessory), also works better for coarser brew methods and has variable RPM.
I considered it. But for me, honestly, I’ve had coffee from grinders ranging from $150-$10k, and once you hit about 1500 to 2000 the law of diminishing returns kicks in and the benefits of that extra cash becomes more or less lost in very incremental benefits if any, to the point where I can’t justify the cost to myself.
My daily driver for espresso is P64 with HU burrs and the second grinder is a conical Kinu M68. P64 produces shots with more nuances and clarity, but M68 is also nice when you want a slightly more traditional feel and body.
Love your video. What burrs would you recommend? I only brew espresso with a Rocket Cincuantotto. Hi! I’m thinking of purchasing a p64 and would like your opinion regarding burrs. I’ve read the burrs faq on the Lagom page, but would like some advise. I have a Rocket Cincuantotto and brew almost solely espresso. Recently I’ve been brewing light roast, but am experimenting and seeing what I like most. I’ve had the Rocket for 2.5 years, so am somewhat new to this world. I currently have a Rocket Fausto but am beginning with single dosing and it’s a hassle and a mess with this grinder. What burrs do you think I should get for the upcoming p64? Or should I change the burrs in the Fausto? Single dosing is a mess with the Fausto, but I might be able to modify it.
Question on the burrs. Have you had pour-over from the original SSP version 1 brew burrs? I am considering getting an Ode as a compliment to a Ditting Sweet for pour-over. Since it is a compliment to the Sweet, I want it to have as much clarity as possible, so I am considering getting the version 1 SSP burrs which cost about 50% more and would have to be ordered separately from SSP. If no real difference between V1 and the current MPs, I would not spend the extra money and could easily buy the complete product with MP burrs from Fellow. So question, noticeably more clarity from the version 1 Brew burrs compared to MP, or no real difference?
Hey, you finally get crazy good grinder. Love it mine and the coffee is extremely good as never before. Yes it's more expensive, but everything comes with the price. Mix with Slayer is win, win ☕️☕️
I'm looking for a home grinder for myself, but I don't want to sacrifice pour over grinds for espresso or espresso grinds for pour over. How do you feel this grinder performs on midrange grinds? Or anyone who has used it please let me know~
My daily driver has been the Lagom P100 since September 2021. Initially I wanted the P64 due to the smaller size - went for the P100 because it was easier to get ahold of, but so far I've loved it.
@@BensCoffeeRants Definitely was easier for a time last year. The P100 could be ordered directly from Option O, while the P64 could only be obtained (in the US) via Prima, and for much of the year Prima didn't have a timeline for when they would be in stock (and even then, you could not reserve them in advance).
I have a P64 with unimodal/brew burrs that I use solely for filter. It has replaced a hyper aligned EK43s with Titus burr carrier and 3 different sets of SSP burrs, and I haven't looked back! The Lagom P64 is a far superior home grinder - it's smaller, quieter, better looking and has significantly lower retention! My only gripe with it is the dial. On mine the numbers are the wrong way around - larger numbers for a finer grind setting. And like on yours, zero is not zero. I solved this with a sheet of stickers with small numbers and letters - just put the right numbers on top of the existing ones.
Me also had an EK43s and really bothered by the issues like electrical fuse, alignment and so on … now i just ordered P64 which is expected to arrive in Nov. lets see
This video helped me decide to finally click the order button after having the p64 with SSP MP burrs in my shopping cart on Lagoms site for around a week. For context I brew almost exclusively light roasts and already have two conical burr grinders Kinu m47 and a niche zero. I alternate between espresso brewing with a cafelat robot and v60 on a switch and had been considering adding a flat burr grinder to my setup to improve clarity of both brew types. I was considering a dh64 but knew all the usability problems requiring mods would drive me crazy as I'm used to the solid experiences the two grinders I currently own provide.
@@Sprometheus good to know. I was thinking to change for a while from my eurika flat but really dont know or understand grinders. I have no idea what I am potentially missing.
Darn it! Do I move the Niche on .....? Thank you for the video, food for thought. Will be interesting to hear your thoughts on rpm changes in due course.
For the me the Niche is sticking around. I can’t see myself getting rid of it, but it’s now more of a companion to this one, and I think still one of if not the best all-round home grinder on the market for the money.
@@Sprometheus If you're into high clarity you got the right burrs already, especially if you have a Niche Zero as a complimentary / high body grinder. The SSP Espresso (high uniformity) burrs are also very nice, I'd say that's the best choice if you want something more balanced and only have ONE grinder to play with. It's got a little less clarity than the Multipurpose unimodals and a little more body / fines.
Would you consider a Compak PK100 Lab Grinder a worthy competitor for the P64? I don't see much banter on Compak grinders. I've used a Compak F10 for ~10 years and it has worked very well. Any thoughts on the PK100? It lis $$$ but looks to be VERY promising.
Is the P64 really a grinder you would use for both pour-over and espresso making daily? Is jumping back and forth between grind settings consistent and repeatable, or do you find yourself using two different grinders for those purposes?
How the TDS measurement looks like compared to niche zero? I tested the eureka mignon specialita ( flat burrs ) and it turned out that Niche Zero had 10% higher TDS. Of course Niche had more body but it occured coffee was also better extracted.
You can't really tell the taste by TDS, over extracted coffee, or coffee with more fines is going to have a higher TDS I'd think. It doesn't mean it's going to taste better. I'd think the Niche Zero would have a higher TDS due to more fines / body generally.
Burrs with less clarity more body, or more fines generally are easier to dial in and have a larger sweet spot where you get good results (that's usually the case with conicals), REALLLY unimodal / even grinding burrs like the SSP unimodals are harder to dial in and will sometimes give you some pretty bad results but when it's just right it's amazing the flavour clarity you can get out of them. The Cast burrs are really nice too, very different. Lots of body, and some clarity is there too, it's like a good conical burr.
P64 really looks like it could be the step up from my Niche I’ve been chasing…but confused by one thing: why does the zero point not align with 0 on the dial and require a sticker in the 4-5 range? Does that mean the first portion of the grind settings are entirely unusable? I’d think at this price point they could get 0 to = zero point. What am I missing?
I’m not sure why people are focused on that as it’s completely arbitrary. Since the grinder is stepless and will grind coffee on multiple full rotations of the dial you won’t miss out. Anytime you change burrs if they aren’t the same thickness your zero point will change. I just changed burrs that are slightly thinner and now zero is on 2.
Can you make a video about the 98mm Titan grinders...either p100 or monolith? I'm really trying to justify keeping the p100 instead of downgrading to a p64
The fines produced in niche actually helps you get a better espresso shots because it fills in to stop channeling. Unless you have professional setup to fine tune everything perfect willing to wasting tons of espresso beans Niche Zero is just better for home use.
What ratio and timing do you use for a turbo shot? I also have a p64 but with HU burrs and sometimes struggle to dial in. Would love to see a video on turbo shots. Thanks!
After the nerds review seems they have addressed the pitfalls. Now it seems like a better version. One I am curious about is if in the newer model they have fixed the grind basket / porta filter retention when put on the grinder. Ref: the nerds review 😊
Does anyone have insight on p64s and shimming? I've always wondered how truly aligned the burrs are with the machining, but never put it to the test, I feel like the marker test is inconsistent and not reliable.
I am using the DF64 or whatever you call it with the same SSP MP burrs and really enjoy it (wow what a difference compared to brevilles conical grinder 😁). It does seem like the knockoff version of the p64 based on your and others reviews but i wonder if the performance outside of the workflow with the bellows differs greatly from the p64 after aligning it and making modifications to the clump crusher.
I am very curious on this as well and hope to get a chance to compare the two in the near future. Just trying to source a DF64 to borrow before having to buy one.
DF64 is not a knock-off of Lagom. The burr assembly was copied from Mazzer from what I understand and the motor section is not close (AC motor vs. controlled brushless DC motor). DF64 is also far from zero retention without heavy use of bellows.
@@dimaangert Interesting, i just thought they were related due to the external appearance being quite similar. The thing with the bellows being needed is sadly true but with proper use of them & RDT i usually get .1 gram retention unless i have changed grind between filter & espresso
@@redshirt256 It is just the external appearance and the name which are similar. Nobody suggests DF64 and Monolith are related :). Don't get me wrong, I think DF64 is a great bargain, but it competes in a different category.
I've just recently bought this grinder with SSP multipurpose burrs and I seem to be getting a lot of fines and not getting the clarity I expected even at the lowest grinding speed. Anything I should try? Alignment?
As a fellow Niche-owning coffee roaster/nerd, it would really be interesting to get your thoughts on the L-64 versus the Niche *with Kruve screening. I’m not a fan of wasting coffee, but it’d be really interesting to hear how much sifting would cut into that $1K price difference
Yeah they were in the ode. Wasn’t impressed with them in there. Not sure if the alignment was off or if it was the specific coffees I tested, but this just seems lightyears better.
@@Sprometheus interesting, I wanted to ask the same thing. I have the Ode coming with MP burrs (direct from Fellow) to side by side compare with my Niche, and I am really curious how much in the cup difference there would really be with the exact same burrs in the P64 vs. the Ode. It’s hard just looking at specs to figure out how much flavor impact to expect when the burrs are identical and any differences actually come from alignment, RPM, etc. instead.
@@Sprometheus quite interesting. I doubt the alignment could make such a huge difference, but I could be wrong. Either your approach to brewing has changed, more in favor of the SSP set, or the burrs inside your ode were the SSP Unimodal V1, which have an even tighter particle distribution. I have heard there is a difference between them, but not that much. Another reason could be the differences in the grinders themselves. The ode has an auger and therefore a significantly different approach to feed rate than the p64. But to be quite honest, while all of these factors do have an impact in the cup, I would be surprised they made such a huge difference. Anywho, glad you like this grinder. 64mm also gives a lot of burr options to mess around and make videos about (italmill base, TiN coated, gorilla gear, SSP unimodal v1, SSP High Uniformity,. SSP Cast-lab sweet like...).
Great vid, the Lagom P64 looks sick but I don't think I could convince myself to buy it. However, I was looking at the DF64 which has the options for different types of SSP burrs. I'm curious if I were to buy a DF64 with the SSP Muli-Purpose burrs would I get the same result? With the higher-end grinders allowing for different burr sets, it seems like there isn't as much information for what I should be looking at since I don't think there is a way to try out a burr set without spending a lot of money.
Thanks Andrew, and I’m wondering that as well. I’ve been trying to source a DF64 for awhile so at some point I may just have to buy one to see if that’s the case. I do prefer the look of the P64 over the DF, plus it’s got RPM control which is something I’ve been super curious about for awhile. So it seemed like the way to go.
@@Sprometheus I have a DF64 that I got from a group buy a little while back running stock burrs. If you are willing to cover shipping there and back, I'd be happy to lend you mine for your review. I've got a Niche Zero so I'm okay parting with it for a short time.
The DF64 does offer the powerful motor and able to swap between SSP and other Mazzer Mini compatible burrs. But the internal design will lend to coffee grounds being gathered and kept in places other than the grinder chamber. I personally don’t like it and turn back to the Fellow Ode, despite the weaker motor it has.
@@plorwax That's like saying if you can buy a nice car then your the type of person to buy 2.. that's not how money works. I sold my old coffee gear that I collected over the last 14 years in order to purchase the P64. Its an investment in a hobby that i've enjoyed for many years. Plus, the espresso experience is so different with Unimodal Burrs compared to HU or conical that you'd still want to use it for filter and espresso. But you know why not just spend $12000 and buy 5 or 6 grinder just so you dont' even have to change the setting between beans.... smh
@@timbrakefield8313For almost $2k it better taste good. Yea people with Ferrari will have another car and not buy the same car just like you mentioned. And no you don’t need $12000 of grinders, only you can think of something like that.
@@plorwax By your logic, I've I decided to buy a P64 and Linea Mini for each one of my Ferrari's. Coffee just tastes better when your sitting on top of handstitched red Italian leather bucket seats.
Is it normal / typical for flat burr grinders (including the P64 or EK43) to extract espresso within a shorter time (i.e., approx 20-25 seconds) compared to conical burr grinders (i.e., 25 to 30 seconds)?
There is a coffeesnobs forum member comparing the EG1 and P100 at the moment. It’s been an interesting comparison, I think for him it is coming down to workflow preferences as they are very similar in the cup.
I’d really like a Kafatek MC4, but since they are nigh unobtainable, I’m torn between a P64 or the upcoming Orbit grinder from Acaia (also 64mm burrs).
It's their first grinder and lessons will be learnt. Better give them a few years to get into the grinder game. Just look at the Ode, it's a good grinder now but when it first came out, it wasn't all smooth sailing. At least I'd wait for prototypes to start shipping to content creators and see what they say. Lagom has a proven track record so I think it's a much safer choice. Not that I could afford either, I might pick up the Mini as an all rounder though.
@@221b-l3t That’s a reasonable concern, the P64 is definitely the proven grinder. I’ll wait and see. I am comforted a bit by the fact they partnered with Weber, to hopefully avoid some mistakes (I’m assuming the issues with the Key grinder were specific to that shaft design).
@@caffeinated_slacker mmmmm, I'd look into Weber more. I've heard that there's actually a decent number of complaints people have with the EG1 aswell. The owner are cunts that's for sure but I'd heard things like burr alignment have been issues.
@@221b-l3t Fellow had never made a grinder before, although true for Acaia as well, there is one major difference there, Acacia is a cooperation with Weber Workshop and can therefore draw on their grinder expertise and knowledge, weather or not you like Weber workshop or not or might what one would think about them it’s still an advantage and the grinder also look like a miniature Eg1.
@@mikni4069 I personally think once Lynn left WW they lost all their engineering chops and went full form over function. Just look at unstabilized shafts and all that. So knowing Acaia is working with WW on the Orbit is actually a cause for concern for me personally. WW is not the company anymore that designed the EG-1. That was a long time ago and the peoplw behind the design have left. The remaining founder is ex-Apple and only cares about aesthetics and has been incredibly rude to customers accusing them of making bad reviews and calling them names. While blaming user error and bad burrs on any problems. He will sometimes personally respond to customer feedback in an impolite and combative manner. Now I can only prove about 80% of that. They did call Spro a retard after his mixed review on the Key. He got an email, that his email had been changed to Sprotard@... and that he had been dropped from the mailing list because they saw him selling his Key at 50% off... So I'm not holding my breath and if I had 2 grand to bloe on a grinder P64 all the way. But for two grand I would buy Niche, already habe Silenzio and spend the rest on hand grinders, a KMax, a Commandante and a JMax and maybe a Q2 for travel...
I have the cast burrs. The MP is more forgiving when it comes to seasoned vs unseasoned differences. However, the cast burrs need a ridiculous level of seasoning. Only frustrating aspect with them.
With the P64 being close to what you'd consider the point of diminishing returns, I'd be curious to see how that metric stacks up with the EG-1. Hard to quantify that it's twice the value, with it being twice the price. However, I wonder if the easy burr reveal and convenient burr swapping system would be idea for the experimentation that you tend to do. I know Hedrick is working on a review of the EG-1, which I am eagerly awaiting. Pretty torn between those two grinders. Aesthetically, the P64 (microscope) is preferable to me slightly over the EG-1 (telescope). Also, the footprint and weight is much different.
Personally having had coffee from grinders ranging from 150-10,000 I don’t see much difference in terms of coffee quality once you hit the $2k point. On the EG1, I personally won’t ever support anything Weber makes after my experience with their quality control, customer support and failure to take constructive feedback. The reviews on the EG1 are definitely overwhelmingly positive, and I don’t expect Lance to produce or provide any information that anyone hasn’t said already.
The EG-1 is a nice grinder, but there are small annoyances (like some reported beans being left behind randomly) that you really can’t tolerate at this price. Particularly now that you have so much good competition, or even arguably better choices. And I concur with sprometheus, being an early adopter of their original HG-1, they really didn’t know what they were doing (bent shaft, misalignment that you can’t correct due to poor design, etc.) and they managed the community very badly. Also, when I see their new Key grinder which is basically an overpriced motorized HG-1 with the same design flaws, I can’t help but to think « oh yea, it all fits, I will not consider any of their products any time soon ». The
Great review! Good to see that your burr seasoning conclusions from the niche were replicated on this. I find the speed dial numbering criticism a little strange. Every reviewer has mentioned it so far, but I find it much easier for my wife and I to remember "8 for spro, 3 for drip", than "1250 for spro, 450 for drip". I suppose the actual numbers would be more important for coffee pros who are comparing different grinders, but I think the 1-9 numbering is simpler for the average user.
Can't wait to hear your findings on the impact of RPM!
Unless they add PID RPM control. The RPM is only rough estimation anyways, it will change with different beans and grind settings. Or even your house's actual voltage.
Watching the RPM stabilize and trying to slow feed the beans totally could be the future cut edge for coffee nerds.
Love to see some techniques and expensive machines just for that!
I likes everything about this grinder as you point out - I also drink mostly single origin light/medium roast . The gander looks to be very well made, with no fluff. What did make me gasp was the price. I suppose if it lasts over the long haul it would be worth it. It however borders on the starting price of commercial grinders.
I will say with the SSP MP burrs really helped me understand acidity finally when comparing to the niche.
Absolutely can see that being the case, it’s a night and day difference from the niche on that front.
Finally! something I can afford... the glass spray bottle.
I'm sure you can afford the dosing cup too!
I swear I’ve seen this exact comment somewhere, either on the Weber key video or something. Feels very Groundhog Day haha
@@Sprometheus I'm sorry it is a cliché among us third world peasants
are you getting the gold valving spray bottle like i have? it's wonderful. 😊
Does it come with unicorn water?
Awesome review as always sir Sprometheus! I think a great showdown video would be against the DF64 also equipped with ssp multipurpose burrs, maybe even a blind taste test? This can show us if spending more is actually worth it for our coffee experience.
I've had DF64s and I have the P64 with the Unimodal burrs, unfortunately I never had the same burrs at the same time in both to directly compare the DF64 with Lagom P64.
I think the Lagom P64 is my favorite grinder, it's got a nice quiet motor which I like, low retention without having to mess around with bellows, it's consistent and just works nicely and pretty neatly, It has has very nice accessories it comes with it. Should come with much better quality control and better alignment vs the DF64 and looks much nicer. Variable RPM is useful especially if doing coarser brew methods, you can get more body and maybe more bitterness at higher RPM and more clarity at lower RPM.
If you're on a budget the DF64 can possibly get you close or very similar results but you'll need to make sure the alignment is good and maybe mod the de-clumper and add in some other mods like a cup holder angle mod to make sure it doesn't make a mess. A properly functioning DF64 should be very similar to the Lagom P64 at max RPM (which is 1400RPM I believe, same as DF64).
Whether the nicer / neater workflow, higher quality, variable RPM, Better looks and accessories are worth 3x the price to you is up to you.
I have even visually noticed a difference on the grinds in your shorts and other vids lately. So fluffy.....so nice
Definitely makes some fluffy goodness!
Very pleased that the Lagom P64 met your expectations and that you’re very happy with it.
Look forward to watching the follow up reviews…
Love your review. Finding your channel a while ago has been such a treat. Keep it up. Your and James' review of this grinder have convinced me a while ago to save for this fine piece of equipment. Have a great day!
Id love to see a shot comparison between your current set up and your set up from a few years ago. grinder, prep, espresso machine etc.. just to see how much your shots have actually improved or evolved over the years
Interesting idea. I know for sure my shots have gotten much much better over the years. So much so that I’ve often considered re-doing some of my original videos in my current setup and more modern thought processes.
@@Sprometheus I think that would be great I love that idea!
Thank you my friend.
Of course! Thanks for being a loyal spro head!
Good review, can't wait to see your next yearly review!
it was great to hear your experience with flat burrs
I'd love to see an update on your P64. I purchased the DF64V and it didn't wow me. I'm debating replacing it with the P64 with the V1 brew burrs.
It’s funny; I’ve had a few comments about an update this week and it’s the week I’ve been working on an update video. Should be out next week.
I've had the same grinder and burrs for a couple of years now and am as over the moon happy today as the day it arrived. I find this combo excels (espresso) in both black and milk. And by the way, that beans dosing cup fits perfectly, base down, into the dosing funnel hole for near-silent grinding.
Hey Steven, I'm in the market and pretty close to making this purchase. I've seen some clogging/jamming videos on social media, and I wonder if you've encountered similar issues with this grinder. Maybe they were not keeping up with maintenance, but it was hard to tell. Cheers!
@@MrAndrew60 Hi Andrew. Zero issues here, and I clean the burrs infrequently (~6-12 monthly). My grinder has never jammed. Although if I don't give the beans a quick spray with water the grinds will come out in "logs". But RDT and clean, fluffy grinds ensue. For reference, I am using the SSP Unimodel Espresso burrs. Hope that helps.
@@stevenswann2835 this makes me happy to hear. Excited for this one. Cheers!
Hey steven, with milk, are you able to do latte art (or maybe latte art aside, does it last balanced enough with milke)
@@hermanmak1909 Yes to both questions, Herman. I'm very happy with the flavours through milk with various beans, from medium to dark roast.
Glad you've found a keeper!
i have p64 + HU burrs i mainly use them for espresso drinks, i always do a small sip of the espresso prior making my latte. the amount of detail i get from the extraction is eye opening
Yes it's crazy good Grinder
I've had mine for a year or so with the same burrs and it's a joy to use every day. Just perfect for pourover. The build and workflow just add to the overall nice experience with this grinder. I also started making espresso at home with it recently and it's very capable, switching between the two is a breeze. I will say though that I plan to put a more traditional flat burr next to it for those fuller bodied Espresso shots.
what's your setting for pour over on the P64?
@@JD_Therapy 7-8.5 to give a very broad range depending on dose and coffee, mostly around 7.5. Mostly Kalita with 15-24g doses. Also depends on your technique, I usually do 2-3 main pours. I don't know how comparable it is for this grinder. I have the SSP unimodals but even those have different versions/models.
For espresso, I have to grind around or below 1 with these burrs.
@@christophkrenn9985 perfect, that's my go to, Kalita with doses of 14 or 19g, I love my comandante but sometimes I need that assistance if Im in a rush or don't feel like grinding
@@JD_Therapy I feel bad for my Comandante, it usually decorates the shelf these days. But it's a nice grinder to take traveling, I wouldn't want to miss it :)
@@christophkrenn9985 Absolutely
Thank you for the video! I love that the content is condensed and to the point! 🙏
Nice video. Was great to see you got the MP/unimodal burrs and do a review on it with those (Hoffman and Kyle Rowsell both did with the HU burrs). I have the p64 with MP burrs coming next month to sit next to my niche and have the same expectations as you, great to hear it delivered.
It’s interesting to hear the videos from people in Europe and North America comment on price of this grinder, especially when the niche is so often part of the convo. In Australia, they’re not too different, I paid around $1800 AUD for my niche and ~$2200 for my p64. Option O only sell direct for this product in Australia, so maybe a saving there but seems we’re paying a lot more for a niche too. Cheers for the video mate!
I agree, in Australia the direct marketing model of Lagom makes it much more attractive. My P64 was due to arrive in April but is delayed - I am eagerly awaiting it's arrival.
@@ianlock4552 oh no, don't tell me that... I hadn't heard anything about delays from option-o yet so was thinking i was nearly in the clear for it to be on time...(mid june)
@@rand9176 Hopefully yours is running on time. I got an email (arrived about when my grinder was due to arrive) which informed me of the delay. I expect advice in next week about whether it is delayed further or whether it has been dispatched.
@@ianlock4552 Ah that sucks. And I feel that is an ominous sign for me also. Hope you get yours shortly mate! I'm certain it will be worth the wait!
Great to hear about the grinder and burrs!
Thanks Fenton! Have a great weekend.
@@Sprometheus I think this machine is more function over looks which is fantastic but I do hope we can find a way past the spray bottle. It’s a band-aid, not a solution.
@@Fuuntag It's nice they provide a spray bottle if you wanna use it, but I never use RDT. I don't think it's necessary.
LEGEND! thank you for the comparison! glad to hear you're repping unimodal burrs and turbo shots 🙌
Great job my man, as always. Thanks 🤘🏻
I was considering the Niche and Lagom at one point. And I agree “The Coffee Nerd” (James Hoffmann) video on the Lagom made it so appealing.
I have this.... cost a pretty penny..... but I plan to keep forever....
I had eureka facile 50mm for a few months while I waited....for the p64...
The p64 is a really beautiful capable machine IMO
And did you consider the P100? If so, any particular reason (other than cost of course) that steered you to the P64 instead?
My understanding is that the P100 is basically this grinder turned up to 11
I second this question
There’s a lot of innovation happening in the 64mm burr space right now. A lot of grinder manufacturers are shifting to 64 flats for home use. So you’ll likely see a ton of cool stuff happening that world in the next few years.
@@HappyAccidentVideos My guess is that it won't be long before there are companies putting out decent 64mm ceramic burr machines to keep the costs down. And soon...passable Chinese SSP knockoffs for well under half the price
They just need to come back in stock, I check Prima for used units every morning. The wait is killing me. I plan on purchasing with high uniformity burrs, I want that nectar mouth feel.
Very interesting review, it looks like this grinder solves a lot of the problems many people have with the Turin DF64 (which I still really love for the grind quality), but with a little more clean and thoughtful design. I'll consider it for my next setup. Thanks as always for your thoughtful videos.
Pretty sure Df64 is an knock off of the Lagom P64 it's a shame everyone seems to know of DF64 but not so many know the p64 but I guess the different price points contributed to that. Df64 is definitely more accessible.
Proprioception is my favourite 'ception, and one I rarely see discussed in climbing. Knowing where your body is is so important!
Love the vid, thanks for the great content!
Thanks for watching and the kind words Derrick!
Great review! I’ve had my P64 with the SSP Unimodal burrs for about a year now and I’m absolutely loving it. It’s great to work with and suits my taste preferences very well. Generally speaking I do pretty much 100% light roasted (primarily Nordic roasts) origin specialty coffee and approximately 80% pour over and 20% espresso. I love the brightness and transparency. For espresso, it took some experimenting, but what I ended up doing most of the time is pulling slightly longer (1:3) shots with a very gentle pressure profile on my ACS Vesuvius. First an 8 second pre-infusion at 2 bars, a gentle ramp up to 8 bars, then back down to 6 bars before the end of the shot with a total brew time of 34 seconds. The result is an incredibly sweet, intense and fruity flavour profile - it’s like bean juice!
If I were buying it today I’d at least have to consider a DF64 instead to save some money. Probably nowhere near as well built but I’ve heard great things about it nonetheless.
@@gregyoshida4466 I used to have a setup like that, with separate grinders for brew and espresso. In one way it’s nice not to have to readjust when switching methods, but it takes a lot of space and you have to spend more if you want top quality for both methods. One of the reasons I got the P64 was actually to be able to use one single grinder at home for all my needs. And it works well. I don’t do espresso very often, maybe 20% of my coffee is espresso based, and switching back and forth is not hard with the graded scale on the grinder. But I have to try to remember the last settings I used for a particular bean and since I change beans a lot there is some extra work in dialling in.
I'm about to order mines this weekend, but wasn't sure on the burr set. I like espresso mostly, but do enjoy a pour over. Should I get two sets or just stay with the unimodel?
Are there any plans to update the review with the new Mizen burrs that Option- O created? Curious to hear your thoughts on those burrs compared to the SSP burrs.
would be curious to see thoughts on the d64 as an alternative. its been positive overall but a bit of an asterisk on the build quality & out of the box performance. i just want the thing that'll be reliable cause as folks say buy once cry once
I think you are looking the fifth leg of the cat here, it really seams and is solidly built. it will last a lifetime. if I had the money I'd go directly to buy it, no second thoughts
I got it last week. I’m still discovering but so far, I’ve never had espresso as clear as the df64. Mine is completely stock. One downside is the indicator, I’m having a hard time to know what settings exactly am at.
The df64 can be great if you put time into modding it or put up with the workflow, the p64 is great out of the box
I ordered the P64 with the new Mizen burrs, as it’s the closest option to the Lab Sweet burrs. I wonder if I’ll have to align the burrs if I’ll decide to try the MP at some point.
According to Option-o the alignment is permanent, but I got the Mizen burrs and have an older model P64, and they were a completely different thickness than the SSP MPs and required shims to work properly. But I’m assuming they’ve got that squared away on the new versions.
@@Sprometheus yes. The newer models don’t require a shim
Finally! I’ve been waiting to hear your thoughts on the MP burrs ever since I saw you got them with the Lagom. It’s been exactly three weeks since I got my HU burrs and I really wasn’t sure if I should go with the MP instead. After watching this I’m happy to say that I’m glad I went with the HU burrs. I only drink espresso, so I can see why the MP burrs are better suited for your usage. What a massive difference compared to Mazzer’s 189D burrs! Mazzer burrs felt like making espresso on easy mode to be fair! The cups I’m getting with the HU are insane - clear, balanced, really nice body with whatever ratio I try. In regards to seasoning, I still haven’t noticed much of a difference in taste or workflow after 3kg. I have to say these don’t go well with 9bar shots, at least for me. I don’t expect you to throw yourself at the HU (or even LS) right away, but I’m curious to see them compared side by side. Thanks for the time you took to put all this together, good job!
Yeah I think a full espresso program will definitely be better with the HU, but I am very curious to try them side by side. Working on getting a set in the near future.
Nice!
Some flat whites with SSP MP is totally fine. I do that everyday. Though, for something americano, can't bean the "juice-taste-like" from the SSP MP burr.
I would say, get SSP MP and a decent conical grinder to complement each other.
Were you considering lab sweet burrs? What is your opinion on them vs MP?
Such a Magnificent Grinder, love it
Excellent review as always
For me that I drink only espresso, black, no milk, light or medium roasts, I would choose the high uniformity burrs because, for me, texture/mouthfeel has the same worth as taste or a vibrant acidity
I am going to change the stock burrs on my super jolly and your review helped me a lot to take the decision: high uniformity - multipurpose, 1 - 0
I am not sure I get it. HU and MP Red Speed are the same burrs, no?
@@dimaangert No
In the past, there were 2 options, high uniformity for espresso, and unimodal for brew
Now, they add a third choice, multipurpose, that it's something between, practically they are for brew but you can also use it for espresso, with less texture, more clarity
Would love to see your review of the new Option O mini!!!
And just when I thought I had my end game grinder ... (Eureka Atom 75) was thinking about getting SSP burrs, but I think I need this or the new Acaia Orbit, hope you review the Orbit when it comes out
The P-64 is so sexy and appears to be the current cheapest option for a 64 mm flat burr grinder that has it all- looks, design, ease of use. That said, I went with the DF-64 w/ SSP MP burrs instead. There are definitely less desirable features of the DF-64 compared to the P-64. But, as you pointed out, it all comes down to price- I can live with those inferior aspects if it means saving $1,400 (!) , which is the price difference between the two grinders.
Was, the Kopi Deva and Zerno will take that price as the cheapest has it all, this will be the most expensive 64mm SD grinder that has it all, well until the Orbit comes out that will also allow Gbw with a hopper.
The question later this year will be your willingness to pay for the better design and craftsmanship, because the P64 is without a doubt the best and least flawed under €2000 grinder.
My wife and I are strictly a filter coffee "couple. We use a Technivorm Moccamaster and have been using a conical grinder. do you think the Logom with factory burr grinders would be good for this purpose? It is literally 99% of our coffee consumption. Many thx.
Well I guess that depends on what you’re both looking to get from your grinder. If you were to rank body, balance, sweetness and clarity from most to least important what would be the order?
Are you kidding about not liking the looks? :D Silver is the colour to get for this one. It's beautiful.
Definitely a good complimentary grinder to the Niche Zero.
Lagom P64 accessories aren't always colour matched, I Think sometimes they'll send out whatever they have in stock. My silver P64 came with a black magnetic collar, which I don't really mind, pleasantly surprised it was magnetic (older version didn't come with magnets!). It works very well and fits on the P64 and Monolith forks where the tall Decent brand one is a bit too wide and doesn't fit on those grinders.
If you want a light 'bellows' that works for getting any extra retention out (I'd just use it when switching grind size, like for different brew methods) get a cheap silicon 'sputem cup' to use with the P64 (also works with the Niche Zero).
I have the same SSP MP burrs in mine, At lower RPM, for espresso with a light roast, I've had my P64 kinda stutter, like it hesitates for a half a second (maybe less) but never stalled really, the Weber Key has done the same thing (I know you love that one lol, I've had pretty good experience with it, although I'm not a fan of the company either).
I feel like I'm getting some more body out of the P64 with Unimodal (MP) burrs after it's been used for a while (after some seasoning) but it could also be due to how i'm pulling shots, the espresso machine also can have an effect. Today although I used the Weber Key not the P64, I did a test between the ECM Synchronika and La Pavoni Europiccola lever machine and found the Lever machine had a lot more body, even though brew ratio was very close. Not a conclusive test, but I've had similar results before I believe using P64 and other grinders as well.
I find with those burrs the useful RPM range is kinda limited, 7 or over works well, where I can't seem to pull shots very well at lower RPM with those burrs. Maybe with the Decent espresso machine or Turboshots you can get better results. I do more regular but slow flowing 1:2 ish shots usually.
Generally lower rpm = more clarity, less body (seemingly due to less fines).
Even at higher RPM though the clarity is higher than any other grinder / burr set I've tried.
The design of the P64 really makes me think "what if Niche, but flat burrs?". It's the same kind of super easy to use, no-fiddling-with-bellows kind of single doser design.
Pretty much, yep. P64 is even more versatile in a way since you can use a cup or grind into the portafilter (without a 3rd party accessory), also works better for coarser brew methods and has variable RPM.
Have you considered lagom P100 and what’s the reasons that you chose p64 over it if have?
I considered it. But for me, honestly, I’ve had coffee from grinders ranging from $150-$10k, and once you hit about 1500 to 2000 the law of diminishing returns kicks in and the benefits of that extra cash becomes more or less lost in very incremental benefits if any, to the point where I can’t justify the cost to myself.
@@Sprometheus I give it a year before you go up to p100
@@thewowleader I've heard people can barely taste the different between 64mm SSP MP and 98mm HU
@@Sprometheus "Law of Diminishing Returns", says the person with the Linea Mini :P
My daily driver for espresso is P64 with HU burrs and the second grinder is a conical Kinu M68. P64 produces shots with more nuances and clarity, but M68 is also nice when you want a slightly more traditional feel and body.
Yes, P63 is extremely,y good grinder
Love your video. What burrs would you recommend? I only brew espresso with a Rocket Cincuantotto.
Hi! I’m thinking of purchasing a p64 and would like your opinion regarding burrs. I’ve read the burrs faq on the Lagom page, but would like some advise.
I have a Rocket Cincuantotto and brew almost solely espresso.
Recently I’ve been brewing light roast, but am experimenting and seeing what I like most.
I’ve had the Rocket for 2.5 years, so am somewhat new to this world.
I currently have a Rocket Fausto but am beginning with single dosing and it’s a hassle and a mess with this grinder.
What burrs do you think I should get for the upcoming p64? Or should I change the burrs in the Fausto? Single dosing is a mess with the Fausto, but I might be able to modify it.
Question on the burrs. Have you had pour-over from the original SSP version 1 brew burrs? I am considering getting an Ode as a compliment to a Ditting Sweet for pour-over. Since it is a compliment to the Sweet, I want it to have as much clarity as possible, so I am considering getting the version 1 SSP burrs which cost about 50% more and would have to be ordered separately from SSP. If no real difference between V1 and the current MPs, I would not spend the extra money and could easily buy the complete product with MP burrs from Fellow.
So question, noticeably more clarity from the version 1 Brew burrs compared to MP, or no real difference?
So is that a 10 grand coffee bar set up 🤔! This is madness 😆😆😆! Love your vid Spro ! Thx for sharing 😉
What burrs are recommended for someone who does exclusively espresso and enjoys changing from light to medium to dark roast?
Hey, you finally get crazy good grinder. Love it mine and the coffee is extremely good as never before.
Yes it's more expensive, but everything comes with the price.
Mix with Slayer is win, win ☕️☕️
I'm looking for a home grinder for myself, but I don't want to sacrifice pour over grinds for espresso or espresso grinds for pour over. How do you feel this grinder performs on midrange grinds? Or anyone who has used it please let me know~
Great review! Any issues with scratching on the black? Kyle Rowsell stated in his review his silver P64 was easily scratching.
My daily driver has been the Lagom P100 since September 2021. Initially I wanted the P64 due to the smaller size - went for the P100 because it was easier to get ahold of, but so far I've loved it.
I don't think it's usually easier to get ahold of!
@@BensCoffeeRants Definitely was easier for a time last year. The P100 could be ordered directly from Option O, while the P64 could only be obtained (in the US) via Prima, and for much of the year Prima didn't have a timeline for when they would be in stock (and even then, you could not reserve them in advance).
@@reuvenlax4635 I see it's a bit different in Canada.
hey Spromethus, are you planning an Orea V3 review? peeped it in some b-roll. I'm loving mine so far. so quick!
I have a P64 with unimodal/brew burrs that I use solely for filter. It has replaced a hyper aligned EK43s with Titus burr carrier and 3 different sets of SSP burrs, and I haven't looked back! The Lagom P64 is a far superior home grinder - it's smaller, quieter, better looking and has significantly lower retention!
My only gripe with it is the dial. On mine the numbers are the wrong way around - larger numbers for a finer grind setting. And like on yours, zero is not zero. I solved this with a sheet of stickers with small numbers and letters - just put the right numbers on top of the existing ones.
This was corrected in a new iteration - they now go the right way. But yes, quite annoying.
@@sarahlukehawkins789 So lame. Their reasoning was "we sort of didn't think about that. The numbers are more like ... reference points."
Me also had an EK43s and really bothered by the issues like electrical fuse, alignment and so on … now i just ordered P64 which is expected to arrive in Nov. lets see
This video helped me decide to finally click the order button after having the p64 with SSP MP burrs in my shopping cart on Lagoms site for around a week. For context I brew almost exclusively light roasts and already have two conical burr grinders Kinu m47 and a niche zero. I alternate between espresso brewing with a cafelat robot and v60 on a switch and had been considering adding a flat burr grinder to my setup to improve clarity of both brew types. I was considering a dh64 but knew all the usability problems requiring mods would drive me crazy as I'm used to the solid experiences the two grinders I currently own provide.
I didn’t get the magnetic funnel with mine. Also my WDT tool was smaller. I’m surprised you didn’t reference the ketchup cup for community fun.
I have not tested my burr alignment because my coffee has been so good after upgrading from specialita. My workflow is a lot more enjoyable also.
My goal is to have thick syrupy dark roast espresso. Would u recommend this or the niche for that purpose or maybe a different one. I have the DE1.
Absolutely the Niche or another conical grinder. Espresso texture is elevated by those.
@@Sprometheus good to know. I was thinking to change for a while from my eurika flat but really dont know or understand grinders. I have no idea what I am potentially missing.
Just curious, why spray water onto the beans? Won't it makes the grind sticky?
Darn it! Do I move the Niche on .....? Thank you for the video, food for thought. Will be interesting to hear your thoughts on rpm changes in due course.
For the me the Niche is sticking around. I can’t see myself getting rid of it, but it’s now more of a companion to this one, and I think still one of if not the best all-round home grinder on the market for the money.
Whats the brewer with the blue base but clear glass brewer? Sort of looks like the April but not really.
So what will the Niche stick around and be used for - is this more a traditional espresso, especially when it's medium and dark roast beans?
would love to hear your thoughts on the high uniformity SSP burrs if you ever decide to get those, and how the espresso is compared to the Niche
I am curious to try the full set, and maybe over time will pick them up.
@@Sprometheus If you're into high clarity you got the right burrs already, especially if you have a Niche Zero as a complimentary / high body grinder. The SSP Espresso (high uniformity) burrs are also very nice, I'd say that's the best choice if you want something more balanced and only have ONE grinder to play with. It's got a little less clarity than the Multipurpose unimodals and a little more body / fines.
Would you consider a Compak PK100 Lab Grinder a worthy competitor for the P64? I don't see much banter on Compak grinders. I've used a Compak F10 for ~10 years and it has worked very well. Any thoughts on the PK100? It lis $$$ but looks to be VERY promising.
We do a 60g filter brew every morning. Can you put 60g of coffee in at once or would you have to put them in in stages?
I guess a dosing cup will always helps.
Have you tested the SSP HU burrs and if so how do they compare to the Niche?
will you try the Mini Lagom? thanks :)
Absolutely. I’ve spoken with Option-o and they’re sending me a loaner to try out
Is the P64 really a grinder you would use for both pour-over and espresso making daily? Is jumping back and forth between grind settings consistent and repeatable, or do you find yourself using two different grinders for those purposes?
Thank you for this!
How the TDS measurement looks like compared to niche zero?
I tested the eureka mignon specialita ( flat burrs ) and it turned out that Niche Zero had 10% higher TDS.
Of course Niche had more body but it occured coffee was also better extracted.
You can't really tell the taste by TDS, over extracted coffee, or coffee with more fines is going to have a higher TDS I'd think. It doesn't mean it's going to taste better. I'd think the Niche Zero would have a higher TDS due to more fines / body generally.
Great review! Did u wonder about the alignment and checked it with a marker? Just curious :)
Do you think maybe you’ll get SSP Cast burrs for more body and a larger sweet spot for dialing in?
I definitely want to have the full line of burrs at some point.
Burrs with less clarity more body, or more fines generally are easier to dial in and have a larger sweet spot where you get good results (that's usually the case with conicals), REALLLY unimodal / even grinding burrs like the SSP unimodals are harder to dial in and will sometimes give you some pretty bad results but when it's just right it's amazing the flavour clarity you can get out of them. The Cast burrs are really nice too, very different. Lots of body, and some clarity is there too, it's like a good conical burr.
P64 really looks like it could be the step up from my Niche I’ve been chasing…but confused by one thing: why does the zero point not align with 0 on the dial and require a sticker in the 4-5 range? Does that mean the first portion of the grind settings are entirely unusable? I’d think at this price point they could get 0 to = zero point. What am I missing?
I’m not sure why people are focused on that as it’s completely arbitrary. Since the grinder is stepless and will grind coffee on multiple full rotations of the dial you won’t miss out. Anytime you change burrs if they aren’t the same thickness your zero point will change. I just changed burrs that are slightly thinner and now zero is on 2.
@@Sprometheus are those newer burrs by chance the mizen omni? Really curious about those…
Can you make a video about the 98mm Titan grinders...either p100 or monolith? I'm really trying to justify keeping the p100 instead of downgrading to a p64
Sorry, can i ask one stupid question? What is that spray bottle and when & why to use it?
The fines produced in niche actually helps you get a better espresso shots because it fills in to stop channeling. Unless you have professional setup to fine tune everything perfect willing to wasting tons of espresso beans Niche Zero is just better for home use.
What ratio and timing do you use for a turbo shot? I also have a p64 but with HU burrs and sometimes struggle to dial in. Would love to see a video on turbo shots. Thanks!
After the nerds review seems they have addressed the pitfalls. Now it seems like a better version. One I am curious about is if in the newer model they have fixed the grind basket / porta filter retention when put on the grinder.
Ref: the nerds review 😊
Does anyone have insight on p64s and shimming? I've always wondered how truly aligned the burrs are with the machining, but never put it to the test, I feel like the marker test is inconsistent and not reliable.
I am using the DF64 or whatever you call it with the same SSP MP burrs and really enjoy it (wow what a difference compared to brevilles conical grinder 😁). It does seem like the knockoff version of the p64 based on your and others reviews but i wonder if the performance outside of the workflow with the bellows differs greatly from the p64 after aligning it and making modifications to the clump crusher.
I am very curious on this as well and hope to get a chance to compare the two in the near future. Just trying to source a DF64 to borrow before having to buy one.
DF64 is not a knock-off of Lagom. The burr assembly was copied from Mazzer from what I understand and the motor section is not close (AC motor vs. controlled brushless DC motor). DF64 is also far from zero retention without heavy use of bellows.
@@dimaangert Interesting, i just thought they were related due to the external appearance being quite similar. The thing with the bellows being needed is sadly true but with proper use of them & RDT i usually get .1 gram retention unless i have changed grind between filter & espresso
@@redshirt256 It is just the external appearance and the name which are similar. Nobody suggests DF64 and Monolith are related :). Don't get me wrong, I think DF64 is a great bargain, but it competes in a different category.
Love the stickers! Could do with some of those in 3 or 4 different colours.
How do you stack the p64 with the df83?
I've just recently bought this grinder with SSP multipurpose burrs and I seem to be getting a lot of fines and not getting the clarity I expected even at the lowest grinding speed. Anything I should try? Alignment?
As a fellow Niche-owning coffee roaster/nerd, it would really be interesting to get your thoughts on the L-64 versus the Niche *with Kruve screening. I’m not a fan of wasting coffee, but it’d be really interesting to hear how much sifting would cut into that $1K price difference
When you had your linea mini did you change to the smaller gicleur?
100% best mod you can you do
So what burrs would be needed for mir bodied shots ? I love clear filters, but live me some gooey espresso
SSP Cast burrs are pretty good body wise.
They just announced an update to the current design (tool is now required for cleaning)
Thought of getting this. But i can't possible justify the price. Got the x54 instead and it's more than adequate
Didn't you already try the multipurpose or brew burrs in the ode?
Yeah they were in the ode. Wasn’t impressed with them in there. Not sure if the alignment was off or if it was the specific coffees I tested, but this just seems lightyears better.
@@Sprometheus interesting, I wanted to ask the same thing. I have the Ode coming with MP burrs (direct from Fellow) to side by side compare with my Niche, and I am really curious how much in the cup difference there would really be with the exact same burrs in the P64 vs. the Ode.
It’s hard just looking at specs to figure out how much flavor impact to expect when the burrs are identical and any differences actually come from alignment, RPM, etc. instead.
@@Sprometheus quite interesting. I doubt the alignment could make such a huge difference, but I could be wrong. Either your approach to brewing has changed, more in favor of the SSP set, or the burrs inside your ode were the SSP Unimodal V1, which have an even tighter particle distribution. I have heard there is a difference between them, but not that much. Another reason could be the differences in the grinders themselves. The ode has an auger and therefore a significantly different approach to feed rate than the p64. But to be quite honest, while all of these factors do have an impact in the cup, I would be surprised they made such a huge difference.
Anywho, glad you like this grinder. 64mm also gives a lot of burr options to mess around and make videos about (italmill base, TiN coated, gorilla gear, SSP unimodal v1, SSP High Uniformity,. SSP Cast-lab sweet like...).
Compliment or replace niche?
Great vid, the Lagom P64 looks sick but I don't think I could convince myself to buy it. However, I was looking at the DF64 which has the options for different types of SSP burrs. I'm curious if I were to buy a DF64 with the SSP Muli-Purpose burrs would I get the same result? With the higher-end grinders allowing for different burr sets, it seems like there isn't as much information for what I should be looking at since I don't think there is a way to try out a burr set without spending a lot of money.
Thanks Andrew, and I’m wondering that as well. I’ve been trying to source a DF64 for awhile so at some point I may just have to buy one to see if that’s the case. I do prefer the look of the P64 over the DF, plus it’s got RPM control which is something I’ve been super curious about for awhile. So it seemed like the way to go.
@@Sprometheus I have a DF64 that I got from a group buy a little while back running stock burrs. If you are willing to cover shipping there and back, I'd be happy to lend you mine for your review. I've got a Niche Zero so I'm okay parting with it for a short time.
The DF64 does offer the powerful motor and able to swap between SSP and other Mazzer Mini compatible burrs. But the internal design will lend to coffee grounds being gathered and kept in places other than the grinder chamber. I personally don’t like it and turn back to the Fellow Ode, despite the weaker motor it has.
Something I think you should bring up how easily this grinder goes from Filter to Espresso, to Filter, to Espresso without the fuss of other grinders.
Yeah, I think that’s a trait I was looking for as well and it does do seamlessly
Meanwhile a person that will spend this much on a grinder will still have more than one grinder.
@@plorwax That's like saying if you can buy a nice car then your the type of person to buy 2.. that's not how money works. I sold my old coffee gear that I collected over the last 14 years in order to purchase the P64. Its an investment in a hobby that i've enjoyed for many years. Plus, the espresso experience is so different with Unimodal Burrs compared to HU or conical that you'd still want to use it for filter and espresso. But you know why not just spend $12000 and buy 5 or 6 grinder just so you dont' even have to change the setting between beans.... smh
@@timbrakefield8313For almost $2k it better taste good. Yea people with Ferrari will have another car and not buy the same car just like you mentioned. And no you don’t need $12000 of grinders, only you can think of something like that.
@@plorwax By your logic, I've I decided to buy a P64 and Linea Mini for each one of my Ferrari's. Coffee just tastes better when your sitting on top of handstitched red Italian leather bucket seats.
Great video. Curious, are you planning get get the HU or cast to try? Seems like the 64MM burrs opens up up the world of possibilities.
Is it normal / typical for flat burr grinders (including the P64 or EK43) to extract espresso within a shorter time (i.e., approx 20-25 seconds) compared to conical burr grinders (i.e., 25 to 30 seconds)?
isnt this because the grinding distribution is generally wider on conical?
I usually grind too fine and end up with closer to 45 or 60 second shots lol So nope.
You can grind fine enough or too fine on any good grinder.
I’ve been eying it for a long time. What made you choose it over the P100? I’ve also been waiting for a P100 vs. EG1 comparison.
There is a coffeesnobs forum member comparing the EG1 and P100 at the moment. It’s been an interesting comparison, I think for him it is coming down to workflow preferences as they are very similar in the cup.
I’d really like a Kafatek MC4, but since they are nigh unobtainable, I’m torn between a P64 or the upcoming Orbit grinder from Acaia (also 64mm burrs).
It's their first grinder and lessons will be learnt. Better give them a few years to get into the grinder game. Just look at the Ode, it's a good grinder now but when it first came out, it wasn't all smooth sailing. At least I'd wait for prototypes to start shipping to content creators and see what they say. Lagom has a proven track record so I think it's a much safer choice. Not that I could afford either, I might pick up the Mini as an all rounder though.
@@221b-l3t That’s a reasonable concern, the P64 is definitely the proven grinder. I’ll wait and see. I am comforted a bit by the fact they partnered with Weber, to hopefully avoid some mistakes (I’m assuming the issues with the Key grinder were specific to that shaft design).
@@caffeinated_slacker mmmmm, I'd look into Weber more. I've heard that there's actually a decent number of complaints people have with the EG1 aswell. The owner are cunts that's for sure but I'd heard things like burr alignment have been issues.
@@221b-l3t Fellow had never made a grinder before, although true for Acaia as well, there is one major difference there, Acacia is a cooperation with Weber Workshop and can therefore draw on their grinder expertise and knowledge, weather or not you like Weber workshop or not or might what one would think about them it’s still an advantage and the grinder also look like a miniature Eg1.
@@mikni4069 I personally think once Lynn left WW they lost all their engineering chops and went full form over function. Just look at unstabilized shafts and all that. So knowing Acaia is working with WW on the Orbit is actually a cause for concern for me personally. WW is not the company anymore that designed the EG-1. That was a long time ago and the peoplw behind the design have left. The remaining founder is ex-Apple and only cares about aesthetics and has been incredibly rude to customers accusing them of making bad reviews and calling them names. While blaming user error and bad burrs on any problems. He will sometimes personally respond to customer feedback in an impolite and combative manner. Now I can only prove about 80% of that. They did call Spro a retard after his mixed review on the Key. He got an email, that his email had been changed to Sprotard@... and that he had been dropped from the mailing list because they saw him selling his Key at 50% off... So I'm not holding my breath and if I had 2 grand to bloe on a grinder P64 all the way. But for two grand I would buy Niche, already habe Silenzio and spend the rest on hand grinders, a KMax, a Commandante and a JMax and maybe a Q2 for travel...
which precision basket do you currently use?
I have the cast burrs. The MP is more forgiving when it comes to seasoned vs unseasoned differences. However, the cast burrs need a ridiculous level of seasoning. Only frustrating aspect with them.
😍😍😍 congrats
With the P64 being close to what you'd consider the point of diminishing returns, I'd be curious to see how that metric stacks up with the EG-1. Hard to quantify that it's twice the value, with it being twice the price. However, I wonder if the easy burr reveal and convenient burr swapping system would be idea for the experimentation that you tend to do. I know Hedrick is working on a review of the EG-1, which I am eagerly awaiting. Pretty torn between those two grinders. Aesthetically, the P64 (microscope) is preferable to me slightly over the EG-1 (telescope). Also, the footprint and weight is much different.
Personally having had coffee from grinders ranging from 150-10,000 I don’t see much difference in terms of coffee quality once you hit the $2k point. On the EG1, I personally won’t ever support anything Weber makes after my experience with their quality control, customer support and failure to take constructive feedback. The reviews on the EG1 are definitely overwhelmingly positive, and I don’t expect Lance to produce or provide any information that anyone hasn’t said already.
The EG-1 is a nice grinder, but there are small annoyances (like some reported beans being left behind randomly) that you really can’t tolerate at this price. Particularly now that you have so much good competition, or even arguably better choices.
And I concur with sprometheus, being an early adopter of their original HG-1, they really didn’t know what they were doing (bent shaft, misalignment that you can’t correct due to poor design, etc.) and they managed the community very badly.
Also, when I see their new Key grinder which is basically an overpriced motorized HG-1 with the same design flaws, I can’t help but to think « oh yea, it all fits, I will not consider any of their products any time soon ». The
Try the SSP cast lab sweet clones next. They’re truly excellent.