4X4 Tourers Offroad: Grenadier, Defender, LC300, Patrol: Part 7
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- Опубліковано 4 лют 2024
- Grenadier, Defender, LC300, Patrol this time it's a rutted climb and lockers vs BTC:
Part 1 Intro, suspension, climbs • 4X4 Tourers Offroad: G...
Part 2 Slow Race; crawl ratios, descents • Grenadier vs Patrol vs...
Part 3 Slippery Climb • Grenadier, Defender, P...
Part 4 Clearance Climb • Grenadier vs Patrol vs...
Part 5 Momentum • Grenadier vs Patrol vs...
Part 6 The C/D Problem on Hills • The Centre Diff On Hil...
Part 7 Lockers vs BTC • 4X4 Tourers Offroad: G...
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Hope everyone noticed the vehicles with crosaxle lockers did LESS trail damage.
I don't know, the back tires spinning on the locked patrol and locked defender looked like they were chewing up the trail.
Using lockers really saves the trails too. I see so many people just trying to goon it up the trails and thinking spinning rocks, dirt and debris is a fun time then look back at where they just were and it's a total mess. The same people will then complain that others are stacking rocks to get over obstacles, obstacles that were once easier to get up but then goons spin tires and wreck the trails. That E-KDSS looks really good and it's encouraging to see it on the Lexus GX550 (US version).
Yes, also airing down etc. Might do a "care of trail" video.
@@L2SFBC That would be a good video. And yeah, airing down, having the correct tires for the trails, line choice, picking the right times to go, etc. are all factors. Here in the US (especially the west) we have so many places to go off-road to beautiful destinations but there are forces trying to use any excuse to close these roads down. They don't like the human element in nature is my guess. 😁
@@L2SFBC indeed, but airing down has the side effect of lowering your ground clearance which in most cases isn’t ideal either, a video looking into this may be interesting
Excellent video Robert, illuminating looking at the comparative behaviour on that track. They each have their compromises of course and these would possibly come to light even more strongly in various different circumstances.
thanks (from Bahrain) on explaining whats actually going on in each situation. i thought i knew how to drive offroad but am always understanding something new from each part of this series!
Great videos as always! Thanks for doing this.
My pleasure! Please share :-)
I have enjoyed this series. Well done.
One more to come!
Such a great series of videos. I learned so much. Well done and thank you very much.
Glad you like them!
I think they all did pretty good considering what tires they were using. On my disco2 I have 33 inch mud terrains and just TC with 4x4 (cdl) its absolutely amazing on ANYTHING 285 75 16s muds at 20psi and outstanding and still run on the road all day.
The one thing that BTC will always have a challenge with is the loss of momentum when vehicle motion stops and it has to "think" and figure out tire spin, etc. Every time the vehicle comes to a complete stop (especially on a steep incline or climing over an obstacle), it takes a lot more energy and traction to get moving again. With lockers you can keep moving and that momentum is often key to get through or over difficult terrain very smoothly with very minimal wheel spin. Having said that, some of the best off road traction I've seen are cars with modern BTC and aftermarket helical gear differentials front and rear (like a Truetrac). I feel this would take care of 98% of what sane people do with very good on road manners. Great content, looking forward to more!!
I have a 94 Range Rover classic with rear traction control. I have a tru-trac in both ends of the vehicle. And a center difflock (LT230) transfer case. when the wheels are on the ground I have true 4 wheel drive if I have a wheel in the air it acts like an open diff, however the traction control on the rear functions like a locker and away I go. So i agree with you completely
Torque-biasing diffs explained ua-cam.com/video/xWRfPuCgxhg/v-deo.html
If anyone can get down the Rubicon with BTC even a mile, I will bring the popcorn
I learnt alot from this. Dual lockers are the best but once it becomes grip limited then either get better tyres for mud or use reverse and get a run up to get momentum to help get you up.
Yes. Except remember that dual lockers restrict turning.
Once again another awesome video. Thank you!! For me Traction Control is a game changer. In the UK we don't really have rock crawling and a lot of my off roading is on a competition trials sections where steering lock, turning radius and agility are as important as keeping the wheels turning. Brake traction control massively enhances a vehicles ability. Although as you demonstrate, not all systems are equal. I also like that they are still driver dependant too, more so on the poorer implementations. As it adds to the driver skill and usually the fun factor and satisfaction of conquering an obstacle. Now, don't get me wrong. Lockers have a place and if you 'need' lockers there is little real substitute. But I'd guess that probably 80-90%+ of all the off road obstacles you are ever likely to encounter anywhere off road could be conquered with brake traction control and good driving. For me my ideal setup would be 4 wheel traction control with ATB diffs. And a suspension upgrade to increase travel and flex.
Thanks - yes the "lockers always good" people tend to come from rocks and high-traction surfaces; good luck turning a twin-locked car in mud! Agree re ATB, see this for a demo - ua-cam.com/video/xWRfPuCgxhg/v-deo.htmlsi=IvqG7ZYtP7wzuT1k
Great series and so well presented. It also displays the major issue for 4wding in Australia. Track deterioration and the inevitable increasing access restrictions.
Tearing up that small section of track is well worth it for the educational benefit of this series. But it also displays exactly what is tearing up and rutting tracks all over the country. Wheel spinning is fun but it digs ruts. Wheel spinning is a prerequisite for BTC. The only runs that were not full of spinning wheels were when lockers were engaged.
Unfortunately, the vast majority of traffic on tracks are not experienced drivers with well articulated suspension and full lockers who engage them in advance. It’s leaf sprung utes with poor articulation, and drivers who think you incrementally lock (if they have it) after each incremental failure - the failure indicated by lots of wheel spin without forward progress. The Defender BTC might get you there but only after plenty of wheel spin.
No authority, like National Parks or Forestry, with responsibility for tracks can afford to maintain them at the rate they are deteriorating. Their only option will be to close them.
Yes. That section is in an old quarry where we can do that. Not a park.
Agree, but track deterioration caused my human is only a small factor of increasing restrictions. More restrictions will come whatsoever.
Off roading by its very nature means the terrain changes. If you don't want wheel spinning or things that change, stick to driving on tarmac roads or race tracks. Even fully locked vehicles can spin wheels.
Good stuff! Like a mortal combat combination of off road videos !
A what???
One trick seldom mentioned which has helped get me up loose trails: extending your 'half a metre' point on the slight roll back, is to only roll back to near the rear crests of the hollows formed by the wheels when forward motion was lost. Then a re-attempt starts by momentarily being almost downhill, even up the slope and can restore forward progress.
Yes, back to where you can get traction!
@L2SFBC It's the downhill while uphill effect that produces momentum to overcome poor traction at that spot. Roll back any further and you'll have a ridge to climb.
Thanks!
Thank you for the Super Thanks!!!
Cheers for this series. Wouldn’t mind seeing your testing on Jeep GC with Quadratack 2 and Quadralift. Maybe the Trailhawk version ?
If I can find an owner!
@@L2SFBCI think there’s some guys in Victoria on UA-cam running the Wk2 series who promote after market gear. Alternatively, perhaps put the word out at places that do modifications for anyone interested. Wk2 series specifically 👍
Note: with rear locker on in the y62, the btc on front seems to be less well controlled. Seems to better with rear locker off, it does better because the front wheels btc works better sufficiently to the benefit that the rear locker should give.
I watch this and i am so happy that i still have my old school 3,4L v6 prado with rear locker .Off road ability with my car is way better than these modern posers
No it isn't. You might want it to be true and you may really really believe it but the 3.4 wasn't even the best when it came out new.
I know, I owned one.
"Back it up and bump it!"
driver experience is also a factor
Just got my Grenadier two weeks ago, and I'm waiting patiently to get out to the beach. BTC is ideal in the sand where you are driving a lot. It's easier on the drivetrain.
Tru trac diffs are awesome on the sand. with or without traction control
@johnkemple I've considered installing those in my Range Rover. It has traction control but it also decides sometimes that it doesn't want to work. The trutracs would work no matter what.
Nothing compares to twin lockers period.
Disagree. Try turning in mud,
@@L2SFBC The odd situation while turning possibly unlock for a small period of time or have a strong enough front axle and hydraulic assist steering. And keep them locked.
It's nothing to do with axle strength!
@@L2SFBC At full turn it does. Thats when axles break, next would be shock loaded. I have done a ton of 4 wheeling in various machines. I'll stay locked. You can have youre way pal.
Not sure if this has been asked or answered. Are there big differences in tyres? Size, pattern, pressure?
All very similar
I don't know what to say - expectations of the Grenadier have all but evaporated watching it drag its belly so much. Cross axle lockers seem to mask the problem, or was that a different line to avoid the belly ache?
It just dragged a little on the dampener, not much, and then it was fine. There was very little choice of line on that climb.
@@L2SFBC You were there Robert, so I don't doubt that, but it looked to me like the rear end got pretty close to the dirt too.
Here in Belgium we have a company lifting them 30 mm and putting them on 315/70r17 KM3 tires (~34.5 inch), makes them so much more capable
It did but see how easy it came up with lockers in.
It needs mud terrain tire.... they all do. They would have easily walked up everything first try
I'm pretty sure you're not leaving the Defender (Freelander 3) long enough to work it's thing, if auto, you should be able to put it in gear at the bottom of the hill and take the feet off the pedals and let it go, it should work out what the course of best traction is and make the hill. Seen it do this a few times on the LRE courses, I can't see their vehicles are any different to this one.
It is a good series and pretty much as equal as you can make it, so enjoying them. There is an old addage here of if the first one only just makes it, the third will get stuck, the fifth will probably make it, it describes how track conditions change just by vehicles on them.
I'm sure the inception G-thing had a bash protector covering the steering damper, but they removed it to get better ground clearance as it was very poor in initial show vehicles. One of the reasons it's not a great vehicle, a lot of the design is too outdated before it's even built. Rear guard was digging on one of the clips too, it's just not a great off road car.
Stand by for a full TR evaluation! Preview here ua-cam.com/video/2hozHv9oCEY/v-deo.html what you refer to is ATPC not Auto.
@@L2SFBC looking forward to seeing that one, it will act slightly different to the D4, it is has more autonomy with auto as well, would be intersting to see auto vs manual on some of the ETC systems as well.
FL3, Yota 300 and Nissan etc... see what actually makes a differnce and can work autonomously.
The suspension on Defender seems to be on the High setting. This restricts wheel travel down into dips and if there is sufficient ground clearance the normal setting would be far superior.
Not really, it has a cross-link. See Part 1 for an explanation.
@@L2SFBC I realise it has a cross link but with the suspension raised high there is very limited, if any extra downward travel available for the wheel. It is already at or very very near its downwards limit and no amount of squeezing down of the opposite wheel [which is stiffly lowered as well] will get more travel. Try it and see. If you want maximum wheel articulation you don’t start with the body raised to the very top of suspension travel on all four wheels.
Did you see the photo in Part 1?
The fieldmaster model without lockers is literally only good for fields
The Grenadier is three tonne vehicle. It was designed to have all 3 lockers engaged for the most difficult terrain. With all 3 lockers engaged, it is one of the most capable vehicles. Up there with the Jeep Rubicon & Mercedes G Wagon. With all 3 lockers, It is more powerful & more capable in technical off road terrain than the unmodified, old stock 70, 80 or 90 series land cruisers or Nissan Patrols.
So why sell it without the lockers then?
@@L2SFBC my thoughts exactly
@@L2SFBC simply to save cost or perhaps transfer value into alternative options. Horses for courses. E.g. if you wanted a Grenadier to tow, you might not see a need for lockers.
Absolutely, same logic as any trim change and to my mind best exemplified by the 2WD versions of Ranger, Everest, MU-X etc. I was hoping to prompt the original commenter into thinking a little wider than the rough-terrain application for 4x4.
Why wasn’t the Defender run up also with its Rear Locker engaged? Or does it have the auto locker?
Auto.
For the purposes of this series of videos we didn't use Configurable Terrain Response, which could have forced locking of both centre and rear diffs. But wait, because Robert has another video coming soon exploring all the ins and outs of the TR modes and to what extent you can force things or the car chooses for itself.
Lockers are so far superior to traction control in every way except pavement use. The Grenadier is locker focused for greater capability and reliability.
The Grenadier has also shown in previous videos that it has, by far, the worst BTC of the bunch so it's not the ideal comparison.
@@paulelledge8977 in these conditions the Grenadier was designed to be used with all 3 lockers as it is 3 tons in weight & actually heavier than all the other vehicles in this test. Also it went last after the track had deteriorated and the ruts had become about 6 inches deeper.
Six inches deeper? It was the one doing the digging and it didn't take that amount out!
For sure, but its funny I have never attempted a single obstacle off road with BTC. Makes no sense to me to over heat things, and slam brakes to get up things. Lockers when you need it, less damage to the trail, less wear on the rig and you go right up. I do not get this obsession with using street based AWD systems off road @@paulelledge8977
@@DanMasterBlaster We get that you like the Grenadier but let's keep it based on reality. The fact is you can get the Grenadier without lockers and many people will. And six inches deeper is just completely made up.
The game changer Robert will be the electric G-Wagen with 4 motors, one on each wheel - I know you have mentioned this in another video.
Rivian is already there and yes I did - ua-cam.com/video/BgKkI0Lt0Sw/v-deo.html
@@L2SFBC yes saw that one, good video. I still think Mercedes will do a better job with 4 motor off-road traction control/power apportioning than Rivian.
You may well be right 👍
its not game changer! i watched literaly almost all Rivian R1 quad motors videos since it came out and boy that thing struggles alot even tho it eventually makes it, it just chew through tires all time.
@@andrewhurstcars mercedes might have a way to lock two electric motors at the front and the two at the rear to provide more control and torque unlike the rivian.
Man the driver in the patrol is shocking
Poor clearance is a major let down on the Grenadier.
no it's not!
🙏❤️ Love from Scotland ❤️🙏
Dear Sir,
Are you planning to review new Lexus 550 .
Sorry no
Ok thanks for the reply.
I'd be interested to see how a prado 150 would have gone with this group.
See my Hill of Truth videos for that answer. It'd have held its own for sure.
you haven't enough clearance for the toyota and looking at the axle flex in the rear you would only ne doing a few passes before you be towing it down with anouther vehicle,
Nissan beached itsel defender fail because the same issues lack of clearance,the grenadier has the same issue for clearance..
scraping the top the rut and patting it down in the rutts both sides would of cleared the rutts in 1 pass with simple maintenance because all bottiomed out on the diffs
trying to go up a 15-25 % grade on rooad tires will result in the same failure point because you have no grip for offroad use
take a look at the runs with lockers. Clearance did not become the major issue. Traction was the problem - once torque got to the right wheels the Grenadier and LC300 cruised it.
I know which one is easier and cheaper to lift, both suspension and tyre wise. The Grenadier.
@@L2SFBC i did sadly you lost what i was talking all vehicles were beaching themselves in 1 way or another if you had of knocked the top of the rutt off and filled in the rutts i suspect noe of the vehicles would of beached themselves
don;t fix 1 or 2 things you are doomed to repeat the same stupidity Robert
here's the way i look at it , 4 vehicles doing the same test so a min of 6-8 people, yetnobodywith commonsense to knock out with a shovel for the high points of 2-3 inches of dirt
I see alot of people do the same thing as you and fail to grasp the need of a shovek to obtain the track you want to use without bottoming out evertime and you are just not addressing the elephant in the room she''ll be alright mat we'll do the same shiteveryone else does and make ourselves look like dickhead and getstauck everytime
there is only so much you can bang about both the front and rear diffs before you break them
@ you were beaching every vehicle where you were flick uo the what little traction there was you were bottoming out on both the fron diffss sometimes both other timess one or the other
Like i said before Robert if you had of knocked the where the diffes were hitting all vehicles in convoy would of made it up, you need to understand why each vehicle was getting stuck before you fix the problem
1. winch yourself over
2. bigger tires
3. modify the terrain to get up and over the hill
all vehicles getting stuck in the ruts because you didn't have enought depth in the tires and were beaching both diffs on the shit that was left where all diff housing was hitting if you had of cleared 2-4 inches of dirt and laid it in to the tire ruts you all would of made it up the on the 1st try
do you have an understanding of what a beach a bogging is do you also understand the concept of clay based (when wet)bogging is this is what you have a close representation clay bogging is here meaning you belly out because the tires have limited traction all be it in reverse
looking at how deep the ruts are my guess the last thing up that section was a unimog or a iveco daily as those are the only vehicles that can clear them in your possy of 4x4's not a chance in hell
At the end of the day Robert i do like your content however when you lack the understanding of what a deep rut is then don't profess to know because you are driving out of the scope of your knowledge and making yourself like an idiot..
you and your mates kinda created an issue of getting stuck with no basic knowledge why you were loosing traction on 1 side or the other meaning you were getting stuck on 2 wheels most of the time
I WOULD STATE OVER TIME ALL 4 OF YOU WILL DAMAGE YOUR VEHICLES WHEN YOU LACK THE TERRAIN KNOWLEDGE, THE COMMONSENSE TO MODIFY THE TERRAIN SO YOU CAN SAFELY PASS IT
i WOULD SUGGEST TO MEASURE THE DEPTH OF THE RUT AND THE HEIGHT OF EACH DIFF IN THE CONVOY TO MAKE SURE YOU CAN SAFELY GET UP AND DOWN WITHOUT DAMAGING YOUR DIFFS DUE TO TERRAIN, YOUR TEST FAILED TO GER OFF THE GROUND FOR THE SIMPLE FACT YOU WERE WERE BEACHING EVERY VEHICLE ON ITS DIFFS TO THE EVEN WHEN ALL OF YOU MADE IT UP YOU MOST LIKELY STARTED DAMAGE IN THE DIFF HOUSING
@@jasonhowe1697 You seem to be missing entirely the point of these videos.
Lockers always win.
Nope
Poor tyres on the patrol? The driver was not great on the pedal, too gentle and backing off at critical times when momentum was your friend. Driver variability hard to control
The steering damper on Grenadier is an abomination and should never have passed the design stage and certainly not pre-production testing.
It’s clearly not a great position and should be better. The upside is that it is a very solid damper and should take a fair bit of abuse and it is relatively easy to remove if damaged and it has been confirmed that it drives fine without it to get you out of trouble.
inious has no room for a bash plate axle is too low, proven
*Promo sm* 🙋
LC300 won.
Your doing it wrong ... your not putting enough abuse throuh the CV joints ... no pub bragging rights there . Pluss there is no way its getting covered in mud with those slow speeds .
Long wheel base is NEVER an advantage in difficult, 4x4 terrain... Has something to do with maths and science but never mind. Computer simulations predict: Huge tires, Little weight and a square vehicle are best... Square vehicle = Wheel distance is the same as axle distance. I was surprised to see that wheel travel doesn't make a difference... Counter intuitive - I know... I also know - Lockers all around are a must and science is a bitch 😂
I've found that with lockers, you can often get by with less wheel travel. If only one tire on the axle is pushing againt the ground, it has much more ground pressure (vehicle weight) and creates more friction against the surface. Tire pressure against the ground trumps tread pattern and tire size....as long as you have a locker to guarantee that one tire with traction can turn.
Long wheelbase is often an advantage offroad. Here's some ways:
1. may keep wheels out of scallops made by shorter vehicles
2. greater stability ascending or descending hills, better traction; consider CoG
There are of course times short wheelbase is better, but not always.
I guess that's why Unimogs go so badly off road then. And the ADFs bushranger. And the Humvee.
If only the military knew some science.
Doh! Blind freddy can see that BTC 'is' designed to work best with momentum a touch above idle. This is exactly why 'experts' should be teaching the great unwashed out there to 'generally' not idle up a most hills and maybe dig holes as the vehicles come to a spinning stop. But, to drive up hills with maybe 3-500rpm more and the BTC will be working incredibly efficiently. My 2021 Hilux is driven 'just' above idle in 1-2-3 low up many hills and that BTC is simply amazing but drop the revs to idle and the problems arise. Rock crawling is a different matter and 'bumping' obstacles slowly but purposely can assist the BTC incredibly. So please Robert lets get away from this idle up hills, get stuck, dig a hole, go back and add 3-500rpm to the climb, "which should have been done in the FIRST place"
I show exactly that technique here ua-cam.com/video/_CqkDLo1owA/v-deo.html - coming to a stop, then judging momentum, but for this video we are not showing best practice for driving, we are testing the vehicle. The way to do that is as slow as possible and see how it reacts. You can also see how much momentum the vehicles needed to make it, especially the Grenadier. If all I showed was perfection you wouldn't see those contrasts. I don't think I put in the disclaimer about the techniques not being ideal and for testing, I'll need to add that to the template.
All of these videos are misleading.. Not on purpose as the maker is trying to show us something in away that makes the vehicles look pretty worthless. If you added 2 mph to all these vehicles, I suspect they would drive right up those trails.. My advice is do not run with the suspension at the top most rigid and unconforming setting and just drive up the damn hill. I mean who drives that way off road really? My Grandfather used to say "pretend you actually want to make it up there" I see they are letting off the throttle right when the vehicle needs the momentum. couple that with traction controls need to sense wheel speed and wheel spin. As soon as the thing is ready to make an action, the throttle and speed are changed, forcing the computer to recalculate..
Watch the first video, it explains the Defender suspension. And you see the momentum needed to get up the hill....