Grenadier, Defender, Patrol, LC300, Part 3: Slippery Climb
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- Опубліковано 13 лис 2023
- Now we see Grenadier, Defender, Patrol, LC300 compete...slowly! This time it's a slippery climb which tests suspension and traction systems.
Part 1 Intro, suspension, climbs • 4X4 Tourers Offroad: G...
Part 2 Slow Race; crawl ratios, descents • Grenadier vs Patrol vs...
Part 3 Slippery Climb • Grenadier, Defender, P...
Part 4 Clearance Climb • Grenadier vs Patrol vs...
Part 5 Momentum • Grenadier vs Patrol vs...
Part 6 The C/D Problem on Hills • The Centre Diff On Hil...
Part 7 Lockers vs BTC • 4X4 Tourers Offroad: G...
Post questions as comments!
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I very much appreciate your commentary when the LC300 started to slip.
Rather than falling into a simple minded ‘it’s the car’s fault’ you point out it’s an issue of tyre limitations.
Keeping it rational and relevant. 👍
Thanks..it wasn't the car's fault. If all four tyres spin at the same time...that's tyres. If three are spinning, that's the car as the fourth may be able to pull it forwards. In all these tests it's a car limitation not a tyre limitation. That's bit of a simplifcation as wheelbase may be a factor as an example, or tyre diameter, but when 4 wheels spin it's not necessarily the car at fault.
it's an issue of the driver and tyres
Grenadier got best tyre setup with steel rims and lots of side wall if you aired down all 4 cars tyres to more optimal pressures for conditions Grenadier would have won easily and other 3 vehicles are limited to beter tyre options makes Grenadier Best.
They all made the grade with different engineering solutions. The differences were interesting but the outcome was the same. Thanks for your work Robert
Love how you guys show key differences in the capability on the screen simultaneously, these are extremely well engineered vehicles. Definitely going to get me a GX550(LC250) when the opportunity arises.
Gx600 is an lc300
LX600 is LC 300
GX550 is LC 250 Prado
@@matthewhubbard7177 thanks for the correction!
‼️‼️ Very well Written ‼️‼️
Finally found decent
4x4 channel
❤️🙏 Love from Scotland 🙏❤️
Hi Robert
Fantastic job with these videos. Very informative, and I expect like most viewing we are watching these vehicles and thinking how our own vehicle would go in the same situation. What it does highlight is that a vehicle’s off-road performance in any given situation is a some of its ‘parts’ - tyres, tyre size, BTC, lift, flex, and vehicle placement.
Keep up the good work
Cheers
One thing about the Defender is it flexes much better on the normal hight mode then the off-road one. From my experience, I only raise it up when wanting to overcome an obstacle, it probably has more clearance than all the others in this comparison in normal hight, and it would have reasonably close flex.
Fantastic work on the videos, they have been really enjoyable and informative.
Interesting that it flexes better in normal height....on my 2012 L322 in off road height mode the cross valve articulation is turned on and it flexes more in off road height as confirmed by me lifting each tire corner with a forklift. I've since installed a 2" lift via custom air bag spacers so now my truck is in off road height as "normal" but the bags are only inflated to "normal" height dimensions. Maybe they changed something on the new Defender to limit the off road setting articulation....doesn't make sense why they would do that though.
It's got cross-linked air suspension. See Part 1 for an explanation.
The cross linking is better in Rock Crawl mode. The new Def has dual chambers in the air struts allowing height independent of spring rate. A few years back I had a D3 fail to drive through a rutted obstacle when it was in Mud & Ruts but drove through with no issues when in Rock Crawl. Also played with ride height on the D3, RR and new D110.
@@L2SFBC So should the Defender flex more in "off road" height and or does the terrain response control setting have relevance here?
Because it's made for driving over curbs when mommy drives the kids around.
That’s a great speed to see and make it’s system work
Thank you for helping me fall asleep, much appreciated.
Was this written as you slept, or when you awoke? I hope your dreams were filled with pleasant images of suspension flexing and the gentle rumble of 4x4 engines. If you encounter further difficulty sleeping then maybe you'd like to watch my explanation of differentials?
@@L2SFBC Thank you so much for your kind reply and yes I have great difficulty in sleeping. I will definitely take on your recommendation of looking at the explanation of differentials.
I welcome any other videos you have made that might put me into NOD land, very quickly you’re very kind sir thank you again.
I have been sleeping better since I’ve been watching your videos.
Thanks Rob. Cheers
Patrol is the best!
loving this series Robert, a little extra speed momentum helps eh.
The best review I have seen.
More to come!
Excellent, thank you.
Glad it was helpful!
Very interesting! Very high tech vehicles!
Nice test. Y62 and 300 series aren’t available here in the U.K., so it’s mainly the other two that are of most interest.
0:58
The wheelbase is just as long as the distance between the two holes. That's why the Toyota struggled there.
Excellent, fair, objective comparison. The 300 and Patrol were very impressive. A very clever blend of suspension design and BTC (Mechanical engineering AND electronics in harmony). The Defender's TR2/E-diff (slightly cheating!) is best in class, superb and masking the serious shortfalls inherent in its suspension (electronics over mechanicals). The Grenadier's BTC is comparatively off the pace, but its superior suspension is just keeping it in the race (mechanicals over electronics). But as you say, every situation favours one over the others: dry rock ledges would perhaps favour the Grenadier and a muddy, flat, pure traction test would favour the Defender.
Excellent summary, agreed!
I also think it's worth considering how the different vehicles were intended to deal with various traction challenges. Yes, the Ineos clearly showed a much slower and weaker BTC intervention, but it's the only one with front and rear electric locking solid axles (standard equipment). I interpret that to suggest it was intended to climb a track like that with at least the rear axle locked, while the front will maintain two-wheel contact further than the IFS vehicles in most situations (and still can lock if necessary). The Land Rover and Toyota, by comparison, are really intended to use BTC to maintain constant torque delivery to the ground, with the Toyota additionally using more flexible suspension design to avoid unloading or lifting wheels (admirably so for an IFS truck). The Defenders seem to lift tires whenever I see them crossed up, and I get the impression that's just baked into the design.
I love your videos - happily awaiting #4
Coming soon...its about ground clearance. Already on Pateron.
Patreon subscribed - nice video. @@L2SFBC
Thank you!
pretty sure the 'smoke' from the genadier wasn't due to water spraying as it comes on when the throttle was pressed hard. Putting that aside, very informative as always!
That was the only thing we could think of, and it soon evaporated.
Мой старый 3летний Patrol 💪👍 . 😁
Great video thanks - can we please (easy to say not my cars) up the ante on some obstacles and use all the (locking) toys! That would be great to see
See Part 1, and stay tuned for further Parts.
What mode was the defender in? It appears to be in rock crawl (may be wrong mind), but that pushes the articulated wheel up whereas mud ruts will push the articulated wheel down to keep more wheels on the ground and maximise articulation
Like watching a snooker game with that voice
hmm is that good or bad?
It will be interesting to see how the new Prado comes equipped. Running on the LC300 platform. Will they have a twin-locked GR version?
I hope they do a GR version - but I bet you it will cost a fortune buy one...
Nissan Y62 all the way 😮
Big tyres all the way. That's all it is.
It's also the heavier vehicle, good Job Nissan!
Front and rear lockers would have been interesting for the Grenadier (form memory the BTC disables with both lockers engaged)?
1. Read the text caption in the video
2. Yes you're correct, it disables with just rear in unfortunately
So, Land Cruiser for the Win. Again...
Looked like the defender has street tires on, but did very well, just had my first pickel and cheese sandwitch, very different than i expected, i mean the British version, thx. Matt
It's cheese and pickle, not pickle and cheese 😋
@@FirestarterAJ12 i stand corrected, and that y62 did great, love to try my big powerwagon on that hill, thx matt
No all had all-terrains
@@L2SFBC The standard all terrains on the Defender are not as aggressive as the BFG KO2 tyres the Grenadier is wearing. Many of us are using Wild Peak, Maxxis and BFGs on our Defenders in preference to the stock offering.
@@atoieno agree and it dosnt seem to be considered the major difference in tyres also various traction options.
It does appear the Grenadier BTC is a generation or 2 behind the others in performance.
would love to see an offroad ties used
At the 3:00 mark you mention the Nissan's hydraulic suspension. Is it interlinked front/rear like the old British Leyland Hydrolastic system? I've always thought that to be an excellent idea for an off-road vehicle (or any vehicle).
Don't know about the old system - see Part 1 for more.
Should have added a G wagen into the mix to see how 3 diff locks perform on that terrain.
Look at Part 1 for that
what is the smoke from the grenadier?
TFL has a brilliant set of rollers they use for the testing of drive systems. I'm not an engineer, but should be more equal? Maybe build a set... That being said, this is a fantastic video seeing these in the "wild" where they belong...
That only tests BTC. It doesn't factor in articulation, ground clearance, flex, or anything else I evolved in making a good off-roader. The TFL test could show a Subaru being a "better" off-roader than a Bronco Sasquatch but we know that isn't true.
Agreed Paul - however, it's good to isolate variables so the roller test would be fantastic.
@@L2SFBC oh yes, it has its place, but your premise is the best off-roader and the rollers would only give us the BTC. I still watch every roller test I see.
Are you using the right drive mode for the 300? 300 series performs way better driven in other videos
Re Grenadier BTC, I’ve seen another video where switching offroad mode off significantly tightened the BTC response and solved this issue. I’d love to see an example like this comparing the BTC on the Grenadier in offroad mode vs normal mode.
We did try that in the original test I did, with/without. I couldn't see any significant difference. However INEOS are known to be updating software. Ford improved the BTC on the Everest for example via software. And I did tell the driver to use offroad mode.
Had another look at that video - this time with subtitles on. The driver was actually turning on offroad mode to kill the parking sensors. He had engaged rear locker in the second attempt. So ignore my comment - BTC remains poor in all circumstances!
Yep rear locker would make it look good thanks for clarifying. Unfortunately no BTC on front axle with rear locker.
Why weren’t all the lockers turned on in the first instance for the Grenadier ? Did the other vehicles have some of their 4WD features turned off as well to make the comparison similar? Why not just put all the options on and see how they go side by side?
@@user-fz4xd7iv5v To test traction control systems.
I really don't like Nissan cars, especially after what they did to the man who literally saved them; but Nissan Patrol's excellent traction control always amazes me!
Hey Robbert, After all tests, how good is the new Ineos offroad? In your opinion ?
It's good - what you need to remember is that it's up against the best of the best in this test, like four F1 drivers racing. See my original Grenadier test for it vs the Ranger.
1:26 suspension & tire could be the issue there.
Hi Robert thanks for the continuation of the comparison its great to see the vehicles on a slippery climb. I have a few comments based on traction equipment and locking differentials .I am not sure a simple comparison can be made when new tech exists and various modes are employed or not. Assuming the three locking diffs of the Grenadier were not used hence are we testing the vehicle or simply a base drive without any off road equipment ? What mode was the LC 300 set to for the climb ? Also tyre ,size pressures and tread types play a huge roll in mud terrain.I would expect each vehicle to improve with optimum tyre choice.I believe the Defender was not significantly hampered by the relatively small rock more a case of tyres fully loaded with mud and not able to climb the object. All wheels were spinning and then once some traction was provided off she went.
1. In Part 1 you can see the lockers in and out, and again in a future Part.
2. Yes not all Grenadiers have lockers, hence it is fair to test without, and sometimes on curving hills with sideslopes you're better off without them if possible.
3. Refer to Part 1 for the tyres, specs etc. All ran all-terrains.
@@L2SFBC thanks Robert
looks like the old patrol still the best
They need to have the same tires, for a comparison 😅
I can’t wait to upgrade to the Defender my D4 is just bliss to tour in and the defender is even better!
Is there a reason why you guys arn't using the lockers on the Grenadier? It should be the most capable of the bunch?
Yes, lockers weren't working on it for that run, they were before as per Part 1, and you'll see them again later when they came back.
I understand that off-road capabilities are known, but if you're looking for a great tourer for overland experiences, mild off-road adventures, and camping trips, which one would be most suitable?
Not the defender .When it stops you need a laptop and a technician or a flatbed
The Defender for me, no contest, suggest do a test drive in each.
One measure is look at people who actually spend their own money and buy these vehicles. Landcruiser sells approximately double patrol and defender sells a bit less than half of patrol.
@@atoienoyet
Toyota land cruiser
Same tyres would have been nice...
Bit surprised the Grenadier didn't do as well as I expected.
Unlike the others , the simple electronics (the e locker) wasn't engaged. It would walk up.
It was engineered to have diff locks. If you activate them it won't slip a single wheel.
And if you can lock all wheels the manufacturers don't need to refine the brake traction control as (he calls it) to the same level as when you don't have those lockers.
And in this test they didn't activate any lockers. None of the other cars can lock all 3 diffs, so their reliance on the traction control is higher and the manufacturers need to spend more time refining it.
LC300 has all three diff lock, but rarely needs them due to enormous wheel travel. My takeaway is that Grenadier has mediocre wheel travel and poor BTC calibration, that’s why it needs all three lockers 😂
@@dmitrijusapockinas16it has the second best articulation in this group which is why it still manages this terrain despite it’s traction control being a bit slower to activate than the others. The Grenadier locked with very good articulation is likely to be at least #2 in this group and less reliant on electronics than the Defender which is awesome with everything working but a brick if it doesn’t.
The GR sport has front center & rear diff locks. However the rest of the 300's don't. I have a 300 Sahara which I spent a fair chunk of change having front & rear lockers fitted to it. I have also lifted it 2 inches & thrown on Micky T baja boss all terrains. I'm fairly confident it would come out on top in this challenge.
Which park was this?
How would the Grenadier do if the traction control was turned off and it went up with just the diffs locked?.
watch Part 1. The lockers were misbehaving on that run so we didn't use them.
I was thinking just this. Surely front back and centre diff locks would always be engaged in this situation? The point of the Grenadier is basically its mechanicalness and mechanical locks! (not to say Brake its brake traction control couldn't be better, it clearly could!) I assume all lockers were engaged in the other cars. I'd be really interested to see how the Grenadier performs versus the other if appropriately locked., Worrying that it was broken though.
@@jamiegoodhart7069
At the start, the caption says only the centre diff locked on all vehicles , not the axle lockers
Missed that thanks :-)@@4bnewb969
Not to repeat comments I’ve made before, but I suspect there is no meaningful BTC in the Grenadier. Apart from some marketing fluff in a brochure, there’s no mention of it anywhere. The owners manual refers only to ESC in Off-road Mode or “Reduced Stability” when ESC is switched off. And, when front and/or rear diff are locked, there is “no stability support available”.
While I’d welcome any concrete information on an off-road focused BTC in the Grenadier, I suspect what we’re seeing in these (still excellent) videos is the Grenadier using just the road-focussed ESC and struggling off road. My front wheel drive family wagon behaves in the same way off road - the ESC does do something but, obviously, not very well.
The 300 is a beast!
A little late, but I think we have a vehicle in the USA that you can't get - Toyota Sequoia!!
Great video , what is the cost of each car in the video , and which one would you buy , that is worth the money in the long run ?
thanks
Can we add a unimog just to spice it up a little?😅
If I can find one!
da = the
dat = that
dare = there
dan = than
Can you test the UAZ Hunter?
Give me one and yes
Are you using a control tyre?
All on all terrains
Was the Grenadier overheating ?? @6:16 ??
No
tire is a big plus plus. Its should be all the same.
all run all-terrains
why is the grenadier steaming from the front that much ( ~ 6 minutes in)
explained in video
so grenadier had wet tyres? what about the rest?
did you lock the diffs?
Not on that one, look at Part 1
I Take a 2023 Land Rover Defender 110.
Does that Defender have Bounce mode ?
????
@@L2SFBC I'm sorry, I was thinking the Mercedes, apparently other 4WD's with air suspension can be hacked/modded to do the same or similar.
It has a Breakdown mode that engages randomly on its own and gives you a sense of real adventure 😌
@@dibsaikia302 🤣
GRENADIER IS BEST !
GOT BEST TYRE AND RIM SETUP AND OTHER 3 VEHICLES TYRES AND RIM CANT BE UPGRADED BECAUSE OF SIZE OF THIER BRAKE DISCS.
GRENADIER got best tyre setup with steel rims and lots of side wall if you aired down all 4 cars tyres to more optimal pressures for conditions Grenadier would have won easily and other 3 vehicles are limited to beter tyre options makes Grenadier Best.
Grenadier looked like it was overheating
Nope
Why not have every vehicle fitted with the same tyres?
Cost. They did all run all-terrains so very close.
Don't know, why on this Grenadier the lockers where misbehaving, but I think the Ineos had to make a decision, Full lockers or fund more the traction control developement. So why to have very good brake assisted lockers and addition to that have full mechanical lockers on top of that?.
The Grenadier's BTC is just enough not to get stuck too easely. it is designed to use the mechanical lockers.
That is just mu opinion, based on the Ineos adverted philosophy, simple as possible.
I think the Defender cheats a bit, because the auto locker can not be turned off., as soon as it detects slip, it uses the rear locker.
Yes true re Defender. The Grenadier is available without lockers in 2 of the 3 current grades so it's fair to test with/without, and would anyway.
Why is the Grenadier smoking from the front grill on accelerations??
that's explained in the video
@@L2SFBC Ahh, yes. I didn't pay much attention to the txts.
Such a shame the grenadiers traction control is so poor. Meaning you have to spend extra for lockers.
Pretty sure they come standard with front, center, and rear lockers.
@@xm3ntal620I don’t think so. I think they’re options. Certainly in the uk anyway.
@@MrTreegeek1978 looks like it is standard on trailmaster trim and optional on the rest. TBH, if i'm spending this kind of coin I'm getting the lockers no question about it.
That is correct only standard on TM. Hence we test with and without. This was without there will be other tests with as there was in Part 1.
Algorithm appeasing comment
I am at a loss as to what you are testing here? If it is the vehicle and it's traction control, then each vehicle should be shod with the same tyre, same profile, same pressure and mass per square cm. (contact area). If it is the tyre's in question, then each tyre type should be tested on the one car, not several different cars - otherwise it is just an argument over systems, wheel bases, track, speed, line choice, moisture content, time of day, number of attempts etc, etc, etc - on it goes.
Take the video for what it is. It does not purport to be a fully instrumented test that isolates specific variable to compare - and even if I could afford the time and effort to do that, then we get into academic value not real-world as each factor interplays. It is possible to learn a great deal from seeing the four cars do what they did and that is the value of the video, perhaps not to you but to others.
Great 4*4 presentation,.... but OMG in defense of the defender you went all the way to remove the rock from the course... Smells of bias..... 😏
There is another possibility regarding certain vehicles' sensitivity to traction control. It could be more of a manufacturer prioritizing reliability/longevity over increased sensitivity, as well a driver training issue, meaning they have to be taught to not let off the accelerator or brake, which will deactivate traction control. The issue with manufacturer longevity, is, and I have only seen this discussed once by a Toyota engineer, so I don't think it's well understood, is that with increased sensitivity there was more risk to damage to axles and other driveline components from repeated torque/shock load/stress and so the sensitivity was dialed back.
I doubt that's the case - sensitive BTC prevents excess wheelspin. See my three Toyota engineer interviews for details.
Good to know. @@L2SFBC
That doesn't make sense to me. Yes, the brake would cause torque redistribution and thus add some stress on the driveline, but I think that's minor. However, it the sensitivity is poor and TC has to engage with higher wheel spin, wouldn't that cause more stress on the driveline? It's more about the software they developed. As a new car manufacturer, I'd say they did very well on Grenadier, unlike Ford.
I agree with that logic. However, that is what the Toyota engineer said regarding the second gen Tundra atrac, that they were snapping or twisting axles with the increased torque of the V8. What I don't understand, is how that is so as the Landcruiser 200 was also the same/similar engine. I don't know if there were other differences in the strength of the axles. Furthermore, I don't understand why there would be any difference in BTC in any of the Toyota 4x4s; why would some need more/longer throttle response to engage the BTC. All I can say, is that with the Tundra, the drivers had to be educated on the need to stay on the throttle long enough to engage BTC otherwise if the RPMs dropped below @1500 the truck would be stuck and not go anywhere.@@angeloudy
Maybe it’s not about sensitivity. It could be that the sensitivity is the same, but brake force applied differently. When brake force applied more gently, there’s more wheel spin. Just guessing.
This test is almost all about tires.
No, it's not.
I heard the Land Rover can't be jump started without an internet connection. If that's true, does it belong in this group?
Yes, as this is just about offroad capability, not touring capability. Where did you hear that about the jumpstart?
I don't know if that's true because powerfulukltd had to jump start a new defender with one of those jump starter packs and it started just fine.
@@L2SFBC Not sure about the original commenter, but I heard the same from Andrew St Pierre White (4XOverland). Apparently his friend with one drained the battery while parked up at a campsite for a few days and then couldn't jumpstart it without an internet connected Land Rover diagnostic computer attached.
You can jump start it.
4xoverland has a video on that. @@L2SFBC
Defender was on road biased tyres - others had Grabbers
No it had all terrain
Not as aggressive as Patrol tyres or Toy tyres@@L2SFBC
El Ineos es el Defender real. El new Defender es una vergüenza para los que nos hemos criado encima de un Land Rover series
Maybe horses aren’t out of a job just yet
Cada vehículo monta un neumático diferente
У патруля резина самая лучшая, так что сравнение некорректное.
It's a real shame the Defender's articulation is so poor. It seems its traction control always allows it to do well enough but it would be leagues ahead if it could flex a bit!
In that situation yes but in other cases flex counts against it.
@@L2SFBCI’d be interested to hear of a situation in which properly balanced flex/articulation ever counts against a vehicle….? The point of flex/articulation is to keep all 4 tyres in contact with the ground. I do not believe there is any situation where it is advantageous to have less tyre contact.
@@taranis616In previous videos he has shown that it can cause ground clearance issues that cause other vehicles to get hung up where the defender didn't.
It's sort of like solid axels vs IFS, it's really depends on the situation. Sold axles can be better for rock crawling and IFS better for desert running ect. So much of it is situation dependent.
@@paulelledge8977 No. That simply doesn’t make sense. Ground clearance doesn’t change as a result of articulation. Any such situation where a lack of articulation causes the body to roll away from a potential obstacle is simply luck, and vanishingly rare
Ground clearance *does* change with flex, in both independent and live axled vehicles. The great the flex, the greater the lower the chassis is to the ground. See Part 1 for an explanation.
My take from this is it only takes a small pebble to stop a Defender.
LOL
it was unlucky...could have been the others!
Forgetting the 300 got stuck on the same rock
Typical comment from a Toyota driver
No, the 300 failed before the rock, it didn't made the little ledge climb. It was first up so track was in the worst condition, and it's trivial in the dry, I've even pulled a 2800kg trailer up it. This is why we did two runs, and even then tiny differences in speed, line, state of the ground make a difference between slip and no slip. Unfortunately the environmental factors cannot be precisely controlled, so allowances need to be made.
@@davescott5506 The only typical comment here is yours, mate. I'm a Nissan Patrol owner and my comment was a pisstake, as Babeyoulove realised with no problem....🤣🤣
The Jeep Wrangler wins.
In its class yes, it comes both first and last!
LC300 won.
Moronic to use a new car for this sort of thing.
Why?
All the cars can do the task if you put the same MT tyres. It's a wrong test if you test cars with MT against cars with HT tyres. Sorry , no value in your clip.
None of them are running MTs. All are on ATs.
Can you test the RAnger RAptor traction control? I think its pretty bad, without lockers it can't go up anything
It's not great but ok
all that electronic bullshit is useless in greasy conditions . That`s when tire choice comes in and ya gotta draw the line between being an off roader or a pretender that needs his comfort . ya cant have both. Having said that the 300 is a cut above the rest here over all . i mean defender is 180k !!! why would you ? y62 great car but fuel is 2.20 so its really not an option . dont even know what that other thing is and neither would an outback workshop
Give the "electronic bullshit" a try. You'd be amazed at how well it works in greasy conditions where you need to minmise wheelspin and turn. Good luck turning on wet clay with one locker let alone two...a while back I was on the Wrangler JL launch and the then-MD was driving, trying to turn up a 90 corner in the mud. He was twin-locked. Kept understeering. I took the lockers out for him, and he nailed in next time...you could see the BTC doing its thing, not restricting turning. Just one of many examples.
@@L2SFBC lunchbox in the front all day . never had an issue on clay it just makes it easier to turn .