BYU President - "THIS Is Why We Changed the Honor Code"
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- Опубліковано 4 лип 2024
- Conversations about the new BYU honor code often fail to address the most important question: What is its primary purpose?
In our recent conversation with BYU President, Shane Reese, he lays out their reasoning for making the changes. Hint: it’s not about the beards.
Watch the rest of the conversation here:
• BYU President: "This I...
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00:00 Intro
00:25 Principle-based Honor Code
01:55 The Internal Process of Making Honor Code Changes
02:44 The Motivation for the Changes
04:04 The Power of the Temple
05:23 Unification and Belonging
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THE OPINIONS EXPRESSED REPRESENT THE VIEWS OF THE INDIVIDUAL CREATORS AND GUESTS ALONE AND DO NOT NECESSARILY REPRESENT THE OFFICIAL POSITION OF SCRIPTURE CENTRAL OR THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS.
Reading through the comments, I just think some people are never and WILL NEVER BE satisfied. I support President Reese and believe he is moving BYU in the right direction.
You mean you are not hearing the things you want to hear, or things are not being interpreted the way you want them interpreted according to your understanding, knowledge and experience. There are many many people that have different understanding, knowledge, and experience than you, whom you cant/won't relate to because they don't conform to what you want or deem is correct. Your response tells me exactly where you stand, the Lord created individuals for a reason and Loves every single one of them, when others see the Commandments of men taught for Doctrine, for which there are a thousand examples from the very highest echelons of the church and because of 'Their' experience you cannot understand them, which is why the Lord states, 'I the Lord will forgive whom I will forgive, of YOU it is required to Forgive all men' Putting words into the Lords mouth I suggest Love as well. This said, I do understand your sentiment.
@@williamhaddock1838 Why is it when people make comments, other people reply and tell them what they REALLY mean? No, I mean what I said, not what you think I meant to say. And if you want me to elaborate, I can do that too. But I certainly wasn't referring to acceptance or forgiveness or understanding. My post had nothing to do with any of that.
I may be in the minority here but I actually like the idea of a dress code for people who are supposed to be representing something, it's normal for schools to do that, and I think we're all glad the Jerusalem Center and missions do that. I was actually disappointed to see it go. Now that men can have long mustaches and substantially long hair I just want my curiosity satisfied because it made the whole beard thing look funny. If the Q12 or CES said hey just one request, we don't want boys at BYU skipping missions because they've never shaved before and are afraid to go because they think shaving will hurt, then that works. If they said we're afraid that they'll all have beards and shaving will become a code way of more effeminate boys to find each other than that's an explaination, however odd too. Or there's too many men in this church and we want girls to warm up to the idea of plural marriage again by chasing some of them out, then that's a hard one to swallow, but again it's something. If the higher ups said spin a bottle and whatever it lands on keep so not everyone attends, just not something that affects the women because then the news cycles will never stop. Maybe the higher ups never said why, and that's okay too. I just don't like clickbait--does that make me a bad person? I thought he was here to explain we changed this but not that--here's why, not dance around the elephant in the room. I'm sure he's a great guy to hang around, but as a former BYU student I struggled with the university being transparent about it's policies. Like why they're willing to bend over backward to help missionaries defer for as long as they needed to but not struggling moms with difficult pregnancies and births.
@@TheRealDonLayton Words are important, please tell me how you know why or how some people WILL NEVER BE SATISFIED ? You are commenting on what someone else has said, how do you know what they meant, are you not giving your interpretation of what they said?
Kindness does not equal integrity.
BYU is not the Church . . . the dress and grooming standard as they were explained to me are there because, believe it or not, there are corporations that like the clean-cut look. No more-- No less. It helps with recruiting and job placement. Walk around Wall Street sometime in downtown NYC and you'll see clean-cut men with white shirts and ties . . . corporate dress codes. That's still a thing in some sectors. We shouldn't make the dress code into something that it's not.
In a recent interview regarding becoming an ordinance worker, I asked about beards. The answer was the same as it was for excess jewelry, or exterme hairstyles. We don't want to be a distraction, so the code is the same as it is for missionaries.
I'm glad the President of BYU seems so focused on Christ, covenants and the temple as well as listening to the counsel of the Apostles and Prophet. Elder Maxwell said it best, "Granted, brothers and sisters, the world is “in commotion,” but the kingdom is in forward motion as never before! (see D&C 88:91; D&C 45:26). Its distinctiveness is being more sharply defined by adverse trends in the world, where traditional values are not fastened down by the rivets of the Restoration. They are sliding swiftly (see D&C 105:31)."
Speaking of Covenants, did you know that in the Bible, men who took a Nazarite vow were not to shave until their vow was fulfilled? That's not just an Old Testament practice either, Paul did it at least twice as well as certain brethern in Jerusalem.
Amen!!!
When I see the general authorities, the apostles and the Prophet wearing beards then I’ll take a look at it
@timwalker6802 Well, what about Jesus?
Brigham Young had a beard, John Taylor had a beard, Wilford Woodruff had a beard, Lorenzo Snow had a beard, Joseph F. Smith had a beard, Heber J Grant had a beard, and George Albert Smith had a beard.
Should we all walk around in white shirts and ties every day, too? Because how often do you see the current brethern in jeans, shirts or sandals etc.
@@BrianTerrill I studied at different universities and we do see a lot of men and women in business attire, depending on your field of study. This is really not rare.
You can have a Temple recommed and have a beard. You can have a beard and be a Bishop or High Councilor. I went to the Temple today and there were people in the session with beards. We have to stop saying the argument "If you dont like the rule dont go there". We are trying to change silly rules that make the church as a whole look weird and cause more confusion for people not of our faith. Perfect example was caffeine at BYU is now OK. That should have changed the same time the church announced it was ok to drink caffeine. And remember if you continue a dumb tradition just because you dont want to be the one to change it, that has gotten us in trouble with church history too. We need the rules to follow the standard of the church that all the members follow. I have never met one single soul on this planet that said the reason I was baptized was because of the no beard policy. It has never happened and never will happen. Time to change the silly tradition so we can focus on more important items.
I have worked at places with stricter dress codes. Not even religious places. I agreed to follow those dress codes in exchange for a job. I didn’t get to go into their offices after being hired and say to them “the rules suck, they are confusing, and should be changed or else I’ll complain during my employment.”
Nobody surprised the student body with the dress codes AFTER they started attending. Find. Another. School.
@@dcarts5616 I think what we are saying is we want a change to rules without doctrinal foundations. Prime example is how this rule has seeped into local leadership requirements. My Bishop was forced to shave his beard as he would not be called with one and that was 2 months ago.
Why do we care so much about beards?” It’s a hill many are trying to die on that doesn’t make sense. Stupid rules should be thrown out - rules that are high fence laws that masquerade as commandments.
The weirdest thing is when you get people advocating for no beards as if it is a commandment found in the Bible. Sure BYU has the freedom to set a dress code. But when it seeps into church culture is where I say that is wrong.
The mission of BYU from the board of Trustees: "[not] make the church as a whole look weird"
@@dcarts5616 But BYU is an extension of the Church. If anyone has a beard can get a Temple Recommend then that should be the standard with everything the church is connected to
Maybe we need to remove any photos or portraits of church leaders with beard or facial hair from BYU.
The beard policy seems like something a Pharisee would come up with. Seriously, when Christ returns, are we expecting him to be clean-shaven, with a missionary haircut and a 3-piece suit? Would he be welcomed on the BYU campus?
It's sad to think that there are some members who believe this is true. That beards = not celestial
@@GwPoKo I've never in my relatively long life in the Church heard anyone say that a beard is not celestial. Ever.
Well, principle based covenants and commandments. That really sets a standard. From "thou salt not" to it would be best not to... Or I promise to obey the law of... to "do my best to try and...
In almost every instance, principles help to formulate rules, and 17 - to 23 year olds generally don't do that well at that step.
While "I am a child of God" should be a given for BYU and not require dialog for those who attend, the identity of a "child of the covenant" privides more certain conduct and behavior.
This just leaves open the door for those who want to define their own terms and conditions to take the place of another who could be occupying a slot funded by nearly 3/4 from tithing funds.
We need to do better than this.
Rules are fine. I don't get the issues I'm seeing in the comments about beards, lol. I was in the USAF. I don't want to hear it. I was also employed by a company that only allow mustaches and goatees, but not beards. Made no sense to any of us, but it was their rule, and when we took the job, we agreed to said rules. That's no different than being at a university and abiding by their rules.
I didn't have to join the USAF. I didn't have to work at that one employer I've mentioned. I could've gone anywhere that did let me have a beard, but I chose those vocations.
I agree with you. Anecdotally, there has been a push for beards in the USAF and the weakening of waivers. It very well may mean that beards come back to the uniformed services soon.
You choose them, but they choose to have silly rules, and do does byu. The can choose to respect theirs students and allow them simple freedoms.
@@soupyvibes6170 that’s a fair enough take; equally people can choose not to go.
While I am on the side of beards if it’s ever put to a vote, I believe there is no utility in arguing against this particular standard.
@@mikegillettify fair enough, I don’t think there is “utility” for most people, but it’s an inconvenience at the very least, and college students can sure use more inconveniences right about now.
@@mikegillettify that’s correct but that wasn’t my Air Force. My point remains as I stated- students are attending by choice. There are plenty of other schools.
I mean if it’s not about beards, just allow guys to have a beard
Right? I mean it's not doctrine or anything
@jeremims9044 in fact the only scriptures on it tell us not to mar the corners of our beards
It’s not about beards. It’s about following instructions and rules that are small but may be uncomfortable. By doing and accepting the small things prepare for bigger things.
Look at this snake on a staff.
Go bathe in the river.
@effervescentrelief Jesus when he appeared to Joseph Smith with the Father condemned the churches in part for teaching for doctrine the commandments of men. The rules should reflect the commandments God has given us
@@effervescentrelief yeah but rules like this are ones that were created from fear of hippies. There have never been any real, tangible or noticeable benefits from this rule. It’s the perfect type of rule to
Change.
There is one reason, and one reason alone for the prohibition of beards and long-hair at BYU: they were strongly identified with the counter-culture in America during the 1960's. That's it: this is not doctrinal. It's a leftover from the 1960's. I think this illustrates perfectly how excruciating change can be in the LDS church. Obviously, this identification is still strongly held in the minds of leaders that were in their prime in the 1960's. The ironic thing is I suppose is it has been 40 years or more since anyone thought seriously that long hair and facial hair have any association with "unrighteousness". And yes, as many comments have pointed out, you can line up the many LDS prophets who would not be welcome at BYU (everyone prior to David O McKay who was probably the first cleanshaven apostle in this dispensation). BYU wants to be taken seriously in academia yet it is still hobbled by such pettiness, and it is not well-respected by the great majority of higher education. Not one single temple recommend question explores an individuals actual relationship with Christ, or how they serve their fellowman. It took 40 years for the Church to issue a clarifying statement so members no longer had to feeling guilty about drinking a caffeinated beverage (and Bishops didn't feel obligated to deny a temple recommend to those who did imbibe--and yes there were some Bishops who did that). The LDS Church is obsessed with all the external stuff that gives people the appearance of righteousness. Jesus condemned this constantly when he said they tithe mint and rue, yet omit the weightier matters of the law (the principles of Justice & Mercy for example). Also, describing the Pharisees: they made the outward platter clean, yet inwardly they are full of dead men's bones. I had a nephew who became inactive (in part) because the other priests in the ward would be out Saturday night with the girls in the ward, and would show up neatly dressed and groomed the next morning to bless the sacrament. There's nothing wrong with being neat and clean in personal appearance. But, when appearance alone substitutes for actual righteousness, that strikes me as a problem.
The problem with the honor code being changed the way it has is that the "thou shalt not have a beard even though Brigham Young did" rule is loud and clear but the rules governing same sex behavior is very wishy washy, and considering that God called that behavior an abomination, it should be far more clear and focused on rather than picking on a guy who might like to have a Brigham Young look of his own. Plus, if a guy was attending BYU and going to play Jesus in a film, he'd have to go through the process of getting a beard waiver.
Choose. A. Different. University. FFS.
@@dcarts5616 if everyone who wanted to grow a beard chose a different university, there would only be women left at the school
That's more or less the way I've understood it too.
I'd love to see Steven push for more clarity and specifics rather than just giving a strong nod for 6 minutes
That’s pretty much all I’ve ever seen the guy do…grunts, nods, and repeating back the exact thing his guests just said. It’s his show and sadly he rarely adds any value.
Proximity to Jesus Christ brings power, not a building. Point people to Christ !!!
The beard thing never made sense to me. I’m a BYU alum and it is weird to me this BYUism made its way into leadership requirements. My local area won’t call a bishop if he has to have a beard. I know other areas do call bishops with beards. This is an area that needs reformed. No silly rules about beards.
It was born out of the end of WWI when “The Boys” came home. If you were a man with long hair and or a beard you were labeled a traitor because “you must not have fought in the war”. It went so far to the point that women wouldn’t date a guy with either. Then when WWII happened it elevated the societal standard even further, and so it went with Korea and then when Vietnam became a point of major protest that BYU instituted the standards as a means to maintain their donors. There’s even a video they put out from that era bragging about how “clean, and patriotic” the campus was. The reality is that standard infected the membership over the years in that they treated it as doctrine. It’s only been recently that it’s started to be weeded out of things like forcing prospective Bishopric to shave. The question I would love to know the answer to is how many people would have joined the church if it weren’t for this societal standard being treated as doctrine? As far as callings like Bishop being required to shave, I found out several years ago that it is up to the Stake President whether to mandate it.
Amen
@@JCole78 I’m 1st counselor in my Bishopric and I can have a beard. But the Bishop cannot. It’s lunacy. Amen to the Priesthood of the men that make up rules about beards with no doctrinal foundation. A direct violation of D&C 121. The beard culture of the USA in the 1900s is no more. Let’s move on and stop acting like this is a doctrine. And move the discussion to more important topics. Like Jesus and the restored gospel. Much more important topics than beards. Hahaha but we waste time here.
Keep the honor code, make some changes to it, but get rid of the honor code office. It's an HONOR code. Meant to be lived on your HONOR.
I hate to sound jaded but my understanding is BYU gets more dollars donated because of its dress standards.
"This is why we changed the thumbnail"
The Restoration of the Gospel of Jesus Christ is continuing. Separating cultural mores from Gospel seems difficult. On my view, a nicely kept beard is masculine and a rite of coming of age for men. It symbolizes responsibility in virility, at least that is meaning to me as a female. It sounds like forced shaving of face is like military boot camp dissolving independent thought into moving as one unit under command of CO. Is this what the powers that be are being influenced by? Are beards in any way impure or considered uncircumcised in our Father’s House? Do men holding priesthood not have the right to wear this symbol of masculinity until they attain a particular station in Gods Kingdom? Is only a clean shaven face considered to be clean cut for the world to see??? I think back to the movie Ephaims Rescue when bearded President Brigham Young told young Brother Hanks to shave his face. This was an obedience, compliance thing and he did it. What would the outcome be if he had refused? Hmmmmm so many things about this byu code we may not understand.
This bottom line is if anyone has a problem with the honor code or dress code and grooming code aspects of it at BYU they SHOULD CHOOSE A DIFFERENT UNIVERSITY!!! Geez.
Yeah kick out those kids who wanted to wear shorts at byui a year ago, very just and reasonable thought process.
@@soupyvibes6170 Did they apply to a school without reading the codes of conduct to upheld while attending? Maybe they aren’t mature enough to attend university if they can’t read, comprehend, and then either accept or decline and apply to a college that more suits them. It’s not like they got there and then the faculty goes “SURPRISE WE HAVE A DRESS CODE!!”
My goodness people.
The problem I have is when the law of Moses Dress Code gets adopted by local leadership requirements in the restored church. And gets outside of BYU.
BYU does have the freedom to have a no beard law. But it is not a doctrinal law. And many faithful honor code loving pharasitical types exist. In my view this is a culture issue BYU needs change with the times on. We don’t live in the 1900s anymore.
Some rules need to be pushed on. The beard rule is a prime candidate in my view. Focus on Jesus. Not beards. Weird even Jesus and other righteous men had beards. The honor code has seeped beyond the walls of BYU and into mainstream church culture. That is my issue with it.
I actually agree with the above comment,but also cut it's funding as it's not a university but a religious education centre.
Just to stir the pot more with scripture, in Leviticus, the priest was prohibited from shaving:
"5 They shall not make baldness upon their head, neither shall they shave off the corner of their beard, nor make any cuttings in their flesh." (Leviticus 21:5)
@@RecoveringUGrad sure but what scripture says to shave or else you’ll get kicked out of college?
@soupyvibes6170 the only time shaving was required in scripture was when the Levites initiated their service at the Tabernacle, or when a Nazarite fulfilled their Nazarite vow and finally during the purification process for certain diseases such as leprosy. Ironically, the only scripture in the Bible that specifically teaches against getting marks on our skin, such as tattoos, is associated with the verses forbidding shaving and marring ones beard.
@@RecoveringUGrad "it is written "neither shall they shave the corners of their beards" but I say unto you, shave your face, everything but your eyebrows" (Matthew 5:49)
If it’s not about beards, then do away with restrictions on beards. By including a ban on beards for no apparent doctrinal reason, you’ve made it about beards because that’s the one rule all men are going to gripe about because you’re seemingly including it just to make them unhappy. If there’s a doctrinal reason or professional reason for no beards, make that reason clear, otherwise it’s unnecessary fluff that the school goes out of their way (and wastes money) to enforce with no obvious benefit.
Some people will give professional reasonings like it sets us apart from other students preparing for the workforce, making us look neater and cleaner. Those arguments don’t matter anymore because facial hair is increasingly acceptable in the workforce. (Not to mention only mustaches being allowed makes no sense because I’ve seen plenty of terrible mustaches, so they’re not any neater or cleaner than beards can be). I’m okay with a rule to keep it neatly trimmed & groomed to look professional, that’s fine. Students should look relatively presentable if they’re seeking decent jobs. But to ban them outright has nothing to do with preparing for the workforce, especially given that so many students grow them out the second they graduate. So we shouldn’t pretend that argument applies anymore.
Spiritual reasonings lean on blanket obedience to the status quo as reason enough to keep it. That’s fine for things that are doctrinally based that shouldn’t be changed, but when it comes to frivolous rules that student leadership councils have some sway over that are not rooted in any doctrinal principle, it stands to reason that they can be changed and OUGHT to be changed if they, again, have no real benefit, waste money & enforcement effort, & only adds some tension between administrators & students.
And when it comes to enforcement it can actually lead to staff behaving unprofessionally: while working on campus, I was entering a room to address a technical issue on the first day of classes. While I worked on it, the teacher, while reviewing the syllabus & honor code, was in the process of passionately & gruffly shouting at the students to “Shave your freaking face!!!” First day of class mind you. I finished what I was doing & left, glad I was not actually attending that class with that teacher. As a campus employee I was held to the same standard of course, but boy did I resent the school for pushing such a stupid rule that faculty felt empowered to bellow it at students on their first day, as if it had anything to do with the class, their salvation, or their academic or career success. I even remember the days when they actually stocked the vending machines with razors and would send students out of class to shave before allowing them to come back to class. Absolutely nuts. Treating students/employees like children is not a good look for a college or workplace.
See the thing about schools and workplaces having stupid rules & excusing them by saying, “well it’s your choice to come here. Take it or leave it.” is that it actually does turn people off to enrolling or applying there. Some members of the church purposely don’t enroll at CES schools BECAUSE of stupid rules like beards. Less workers apply to jobs that have extremely long interview processes or enforce the use of gender-identity pronouns or other ridiculous things. People LEFT jobs on purpose rather than be forced to get COVID jabs. Why on earth would anyone make up stupid little arbitrary rules that nobody likes when they’re trying to entice young talent to join their organization? It baffles me. Rather than accept the years of feedback & commentary on the issue & reconsidering the necessity of the rule, the schools keep it around just to spite the people that don’t like it. Removing the ban would simply get rid of the point of contention & the debate would end.
Wish I would have obeyed the honor code better. My punishment was triplets right of the bat!!!
But children are a blessing. Go from here. If repentance is needed, repent, and go forward. Your children will always and forever be a blessing...
Yeah, I’m sorry this does not explain your side or the reasons why you changed the honor code. Sometimes people cringe at our religion thinking it’s too controlling. It makes me frustrated as a member because this is one of the reasons people struggle with our leadership in our religion and at the universities because a beard does nothing to affect our spirituality. A beard does not harm a man’s worthiness. In fact, showing diversity as members makes us way more realistic and relatable.
Except they make it about the beard when they focus on the beard. They don’t even have a good argument against it. How about “put off the natural man” or “become as a little child”… but they just want to follow orders from 50 years ago without question.
@@RecoveringUGrad frankly the video didn’t mention dress and grooming. The thumbnail is misleading and is asking for this. Those who want beards can express that
@recoveringUgrad yes I did and they didn’t even mention the beard but had to put it on the thumbnail to try to stir up controversy.
This was a very long winded way of saying that the LDS church has caved to societal pressure again like they always seem to do now days.
So, boiling it all down nothing changed.
This guy is great at talking about nothing...
The New York Yankees prefer that their players don't have beards.
You should be directing students to Christ, not the temple. Being able to communicate directly with Christ!
The problem I see with the honor code is that it only punishes those that have honor.
A clean shaven man can appear to be more approachable and/or agreeable. While the Lord's true church is still in the missionary phase of gathering Israel, I suspect the Prophets and other leaders will continue to set the clean shaven example. When the days of the Gentiles end and the missionary program ends- at least the way we know it now- then I suspect the beard issue will change.
So Brigham Young could not be a professor at Brigham Young University. Brigham Young would not just give in and shave his beard. He would not put up with this nonsense.
I'm very sure Brigham Young would shave his beard.
@@TheRealDonLayton I don’t think you know much about the guy. He was very head strong so it’s hard to say what he would do. I would imagine he would probably make the current leadership uncomfortable with the sheer presence of his facial hair
Personally, I never met the man. But I have the JofD (entire set), Discourses of BY and more. So I've read a lot about him.
As far as the facial hair is concerned, the issue isn't about facial hair anymore than attending the temple is about going to a building. If you understand that principal, you can understand why BY would have supported the general direction. A few of his quotes:
"There are limits to agency, and to all things and to all beings, and our agency must not infringe upon that law." (DBY, 66).
"In rendering that strict obedience, are we made slaves? No, it is the only way on the face of the earth for you and me to become free. … Now to say that I do not enjoy the volition of my own will just as much when I pray as I would to swear, is a false principle. … The man who yields strict obedience to the requirements of Heaven, acts upon the volition of his own will and exercises his freedom just as much as when he was a slave to passion. … All that the Lord requires of us is strict obedience to the laws of life. All the sacrifice that the Lord asks of his people is strict obedience to our own covenants that we have made with our God, and that is to serve him with an undivided heart (DBY, 225)."
If BY were a BYU student, he would have happily shaved his beard if it were asked of him. No question in my mind.
This new president seems super intense and culty. I think BYU is in for some rough years with this guy at the helm. We are officially in a period of retrenchment - no question about it. He didn’t say ONE thing about BYU being an excellent place for education. it’s all about honor code, temple, covenants. I went to byu to get an education not to be indoctrinated.
Take off your tin foil hat and go watch the full interview before you make that conclusion. This is 6 mins of a 70 min interview where they talked specifically about the honor code.
Tell me you’re in a cult without telling me you’re in a cult. Unity is the ultimate cult word lol. The focus on outward behaviors, beards, clothes etc when their souls are empty and dead is ludicrous. Barf barf barf!!! 🤮
This guy says a whole lot of nothing. Dances around the subject way too much without expounding on his theory.
He is saying nothing. This is six minutes of absolutely nothing. Embarrassing for BYU.
I wouldn’t trust this guy to purchase a a used car. He’s so fake