Neil DeGrasse Tyson - The Islamic Golden Age: Naming Rights
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- Опубліковано 17 бер 2012
- Neil deGrasse Tyson, an American astrophysicist and Director of the Hayden Planetarium, discusses how Islamic scholars contributed to the Islamic Golden Age and how over time independent reasoning (ijthad) lost out to modern institutionalised imitation (taqleed) present in the wider islamic society today.
you also forget the Mongolian conquest where they destroyed millions of learning institutions and threw millions of books into the rivers.
:-)
***** It is in their teaching bro , why you think Mohammed married a 6 year old girl? In 2013 or 2014 this Muslim man (from Saudi Arabia) in his late 40 early 50 married a 7 year old girl and killed her on her wedding night ( sexually) sick ass cult....
+Joey Smith Islam didn't forbid Slavery that's right but in the prophet teachings he said that the slave should be treated equally as your self in food ,water and of course he forbidden assaults against them ,Mohammed was way better than any Romanian emperor and he didn't marry 6 year old girl it's only what the Wahhabis of Saudi Arabia say ,but there is a lot of evidence tells that he married her at the age of twenty i am not prejudiced at all i am not religious but i can tell that you are Islamophobic racist guy by your comments so stop being sentimental and talk rationally.
+King Harkinian II
Actually, they were doing so, but at the usual slow rate that
characterized agrarian economies and cultures (with constant downhills, too). Europe took around 1100 years to just bounce back, and another 300 to arose, after all.
For the disgrace of the Arabians (and the intellectuals at Persia), the political and military power that arose after the Mongolians - that governed with full cruelty for more than a century, by the way - were half-Mongolian Turks, Persians and Indians, who frankly were far less developed and thus had to catch up for many centuries, just like happened in Europe when the Germans arose to power after the Italians and Greeks: they had to catch up for a millennium.
The Mongols left.. The laws or rules made by the Imam are still there.. Is it that hard to understand what hes saying. Afraid of a little truth? Does the truth hurt your feelings? Well Fuck your feelings! lol
Ghazali was indeed a bad influence in the golden age but the destruction of the House of Wisdom by mongols was the nail in the coffin, think of how advanced humanity would be if that didn't happen.
Great talk by Neil indeed
Nothing wrong with Gazali, everything is wrong with what your intellectuals read. They should read Gazali, Ibn Tymia, Ibn kathir, Al Tabari and others who were better than the so called independent Journalists of today. and if he read them, at least he wouldn't making a fool out of himself in the name of science and technology.
Voiceofreasoning My guess is that you've never read up on or studied any scientific subject in any type of depth in your entire life. All the major religions have had their turn at being the "problem" in society. Islam is on its turn right now. If Muslims had any sort of moral fortitude or courage, they would be coming out in droves to condemn these extremist view points that are leading to the beheading of innocent people. Instead, people like you want to defend disgusting people like Ghazali who had a hand in destroying the future of the Muslim world and leading it down a path of horror. And there's my venting for the day.
BeaverChaser "If Muslims had any sort of moral fortitude or courage," Ah yes a billion people are spineless unlike you, brave internet defender of rationalism.
Ghazali was a positive influence on the Muslim world, and even the Christian and Jewish worlds, not a negative influence. For example, Jewish philosophers like Maimonides and Christian philosophers like Aquinas and Kant were greatly influenced by Ghazali.
Much of the slander against Ghazali is completely unfounded. Ghazali never criticized mathematics at all, but he was in fact defending mathematics from people who were actually criticizing it. Ghazali even introduced mathematics into the Madrasa curriculum.
What Ghazali was actually criticizing were Islamic philosophers who slavishly accepted Aristotle's metaphysical worldview, which was later proven to be false. That is what Ghazali was criticizing. And in its place, he introduced the concept of occasionalism, which was more or less a precursor to contemporary quantum theory, almost a thousand years before. If anything, Ghazali was way ahead of his time.
Anyway, this video is almost a decade old. I think Tyson eventually realized his mistake about Ghazali. In the "Hiding in the Light" episode of his 2014 documentary Cosmos: A Spacetime Odyssey, he talked about Emperor Qin's book-burning in ancient China during the Mozi segment, but never mentioned anything of the sort about Islamic civilization during the Alhazen segment, suggesting he kind of realized the traditional picture of the decline of Islamic civilization is incorrect and outdated. Contemporary historical research has demonstrated there wasn't any decline until at least the 16th century, five centuries after Ghazali's time.
Mustafa Hammood yes you absolutely right and think how peaceful world it would be if it didn't happen . And i very worry and concern about when will this be going to end between muslim and we started again the inventions and good education .😔
Some today (religious zealots) don't want to recognize Arabic achievements because of their religious or political viewpoints. Glad Mr.Tyson is honest enough to educate these people
then explain those zealots that "arab" is not "islamic"
@@djaflomost of them almost everyone of them are muslim islam is part of why they love knowledge and passionate about it
@@omaralqrni5424 not bc you "love" knowledge that you are digging into the trustworthy sources...
I've read up a bit about the "Islamic Golden Age" and it's truly sad that this era had to come to an end. I guess all do at some point, but Islam had so much going for it during that time: tolerance of other faiths and cultures, incorporating their advantages into their own culture, a willingness to learn, openness towards new ideas etc.
Muslim intellectuals shaped the modern world and helped Europe crawl out of the Middle Ages and kickstarted the Renaissance. Ideas and facts thought lost were preserved by Muslims, which later hastened scientific advancement (it does help when an entire field of math and medicine is already there instead of having to rediscover it...)
My guess on why the Golden Age of Islam ended: Intellectuals like Ibn Sina were a minority among the vast peasentry of the Islamic world. The majority couldn't read and rather listened the words of their Imams rather than the intellectuals. And as intellectualism declined in the Muslim world, the one shining light (namely Baghdad) went out. Thank you Mongols... Scientific advancements never went public.
In Europe on the other hand the governments were putting vast resources into raising literacy, building schools and universities, making school for all obligatory and so son. So the people profited from advances in the fields of science (math, astronomy, chemistry, medicine, physics) philosophy and so on. And from that basis people could in turn go into these fields and advance it further.
It's not that Muslims don't view education as something unimportant. Most place a lot of value on it (depending on where they're from). The problem is that many are the descendants of peasents, to whom education was something secondary. Many Muslims here in Germany have severe reading deficiencies becauses their parents aren't very good readers. So in a way intelligence (a very vague word, I know) is hereditary.
Corristo89 Untrue. Imams and Scholars in the Muslim world have been always treated with the same respect. The Muslim prophet, either you think he's a good man or a bad man, actually told the muslims that the pen is mightier than the sharpest sword. The Quran, either if it's true or not, tells the muslims to learn about the creation of the universe.
So you says that Muslims neglected intellectuals, because the evil imams used to tell them so, then you need to read more history about the islamic world.
The Alexander University in Egypt is one of the first universities to be created, and from it's beginning, till now it's full of Muslim scholars that are loved by the muslims.
Maybe the "Many Muslims in Germany" parents arent good readers, because they are original arabs that find it hard to learn German?
Why don't you immigrate to an Arab country, and let me see you being a good reader.
I'm sorry, but your point is invalid.
The Islamic golden age was gone simply because the people of that region stopped being creative people with their own minds. The Arab world now just follows what Europe and America has to say about science and technology, because the countries are full of false leaders with no benefits for it's civilians.
It's not any Religions fault, or Imam or whatever. It's because these regions do not have the money or leadership to build a age like the Golden age. And that is why most young Arabian men and women leave to study in Europe countries now.
btw, there were no "peasents" in the Arab world, not after Islam showed up. So...no to that too :)
+L Kay You do know that "peasant" is a relatively broad term for a largely rural, uneducated class of people. Which is what most Arabs were during that time. They certainly didn't all live in Baghdad.
"The Alexander University in Egypt is one of the first universities to be created, and from it's beginning, till now it's full of Muslim scholars that are loved by the muslims."
Of course Muslims love or are more inclined Muslims. What sort of standard is that? It's natural to be more sympathetic to like minded people from the same culture.
Actually, all of the oldest universities are European and many in Asia were founded by colonial powers, like the British. The oldest universities in predominantly Muslim countries are about 150 years old at best, ranging from the mid 19th to early 20th century. Now age doesn't imply quality, but the tradition of mass-education is undeniably very old in Europe, although hardly everyone had a chance to study at a university during the Middle Ages.
"Why don't you immigrate to an Arab country, and let me see you being a good reader."
No thank you, I prefer not being killed for being an Atheist ;-) Retarted and childish argument to begin with, since it's barely above name calling.
"The Islamic golden age was gone simply because the people of that region stopped being creative people with their own minds. The Arab world now just follows what Europe and America has to say about science and technology, because the countries are full of false leaders with no benefits for it's civilians."
Whenever you explain something with "simply", you know that the answer can only be based on belief and not thought... But I will acknowledge that creative and free thinking isn't valued very much in many Muslim countries. This is largely due to the "Umma" mentality, meaning something like "community". You don't speak up against authority figures, like those in power or parents. This, similar to Confucianism, stifles free thinking and critical intellectualism. Like Neil DeGrasse Tyson said: Barely any Muslims were ever awarded with a Nobel Prize. Hardly any patents are filed in Muslim countries and the number of books being translated into Arabic is almost laughable.
But the majority of leaders in Muslim countries are corrupt autocrats only interested in filling their own and the pockets of their family, while doing very little for their people. That point is absolutely correct.
Since the islamic world has contributed to science before and helped Europe getting into modern science, I guess it is now Europe's duty to help the islamic world get out of their semi-Dark Ages, back into the saddle for scientific research.
Gerry C hahaa what a joke
Good point for a while the intellectual elite ran Baghdad but they only belong to a minority sect that looked upon non-religious scholarship very favorably. the vast majority common folk were averse to the thinking of the intellectual elite. Also the tolerance of the intellectual elite of Muslims was directed towards the intellectual elite of Christians and Jews not towards the masses. It was a very bifurcated society. The masses of jews and Christians basic quite a bit of oppression
The numeric system "Arabic numerals" was first invented in India. The Arab merchants brought it back to the Arab peninsula where then the Romans discovered it and therefore name it "Arabic numerals".
Where did you get that?
Imam Al Ghazalli Was one of the Greatest Cleric of the Muslim world, It was not him who was responsible for the downfall of Islamic Golden Age, but rather it was our Ignorance from the path of Islam,
But Now we vow to bring back the The Golden Age Again, In Sha Allah
"What brilliance may have expressed itself, and did not"
Powerful words
I don't think a huge civilisation could end with one sentence. There must be some other factors for the decline of this Golden Age
The Ghazali quote is a Neil deGrasse Tyson fabrication. Ghazali never wrote that math was the work of the devil.
Also Islamic innovation did not end with Ghazali. There were many Islamic mathematicians and scientists in the centuries following Ghazali. The father of symbolic algebra was born 3 centuries after Ghazali's death.
Tyson is a source of falsehoods.
Persians race mixing look at the middle east now
yes the other factor was an entire religion called Islam. That one sentence carried forward again and again by each preacher for 1,000 years and this is the result.
@@musicjunk8266Mongol invasions, prohibition of printing press by the Ottomans etc also played an important role
A common accusation that has been leveled at Imam al-Ghazali by Orientalist scholars is that his refutation of philosophy led to a general decline of Islamic scientific advancement. They base their claims that many of the people that al-Ghazali refuted, such as Ibn Sina and al-Farabi, were some of the leading scientific scholars of the day. The truth, however, is of course more nuanced, when one reads Imam al-Ghazali’s works at a very superficial level, one can easily misunderstand what he is saying as anti-scientific in general. The truth, however, is that al-Ghazali’s only warning to students is to not fully accept all the beliefs and ideas of a scholar simply because of his achievements in mathematics and science. By issuing such a warning, al-Ghazali is in fact protecting the scientific enterprise for future generations by insulating it from being mixed with theoretical philosophy that could eventually dilute science itself to a field based on conjecture and reasoning alone.
Heyyy, LIH, right?
didn't it ever occur to you what made the Muslims excel in sciences in the first place ? the Quran is full of verses that urge people to reflect on the creation of the universe. It even contains details about stars and planets... Maybe the philosophy of some people changed afterwards but that is not the fault of religion.
The comments you've been posting show me that you have bias against Islam.
You're missing the whole point. When Christianity in Europe thought that a lot of the philosophers, scientists, mathematicians, etc. were heretics, Islam embraced them because the Quran and the teachings of Islam promote the acquisition of knowledge and education in all fields. The number one request Allah (God) in the Quran makes to those who read is to "ponder", "think", "reflect", etc. on the wonders of the world and the universe and come to the path of Islam through their own rationale. This is a very very common theme within the Quran and Islam.
The Quran and the core values of Islam created the atmosphere for the Muslims at that time (predominantly Arabs) to excel in math and science when before Islam the Arabs never had such an outlook on the world.
So when ISIS destroys amazing works of art... are they pausing to ponder, think, and reflect on them before, during, or after the destruction?
The difference between Christian nations and Muslim nations, is that over time, the Christian church embraced progress in the arts as well as technology while the Islamist Imam's see that progress as a loss of control over believers.
It is only natural that an increase in education in the sciences has a direct impact on the membership of religions. When god is the space beyond discovery, and new discoveries happen every day, then 'god' is an ever reaching concept that becomes smaller and smaller.
Is it bad to believe in a religion? I don't think its bad, so long as that religion promotes and fosters multi-faceted growth in your person, community, and discovery. When people point the finger and say 'Islam is bad' we are talking about the portion of Islam that oppresses people... where the religion actually goes out of its way to stamp out growth... and that usually is accompanied with Sharia Law.
In the land of the intellectual, there is no place for 'stoning a woman to death' for adultery. And when your 'God' calls for such a punishment... then I would have to question you and your beliefs and simply say does that really sound like what a creator would command? to destroy his creation and allow that person no opportunity to repent for her mistake?
What happens to a Muslim woman who is raped? You support her being sent to jail or killed? Do you still support that if that woman was your 9 year old daughter who was gang raped by 10 men? When your religious text has questionable (or in this case absurd and idiotic) morality, you find it acceptable if not required to follow it without question?
When you cannot reconcile the atrocities both written in and supported by your religious texts with the implied will of a benevolent and loving creator then the only recourse is to conclude that your religion is just a bunch of bullshit created with the sole intention of mental enslavement with the intent to appease the greed of the royalty and push a brutal and totalitarian order on the uneducated population.
No it's because Sufism was dominant at that period and Sufism is more spiritual and largely doesn't care much about the primitive documents known as the quran and hadith. Once they started to actually read their books they learned more towards Sunni and Shia and that's why the Muslim world is so backwards today. Because Islam itself is.
"If nothing that you do matters, then the only thing that matters is what you do."
A common accusation that has been leveled at Imam al-Ghazali by Orientalist scholars is that his refutation of philosophy led to a general decline of Islamic scientific advancement. They base their claims that many of the people that al-Ghazali refuted, such as Ibn Sina and al-Farabi, were some of the leading scientific scholars of the day. The truth, however, is of course more nuanced.While al-Ghazali clearly did take issue with the philosophical ideas of scholars who also wrote great mathematical and scientific treatises, he makes very clear the distinction between philosophy and science. Al-Ghazali states:“Whoever takes up these mathematical sciences marvels at the fine precision of their details and the clarity of their proofs. Because of that, he forms a high opinion of the philosophers and assumes that all their sciences have the same lucidity and apodeictic solidity as this science of mathematics.”3The danger in studying mathematics and other sciences, argues al-Ghazali, is not that the subject itself is contrary to Islam and should be avoided. Rather, the student must be careful to accept the scientific ideas of scholars without blindly accepting everything they say regarding philosophy and other problematic subjects.He goes on to state that there is another danger for an ignorant student of the sciences, and that is the rejection of all scientific discoveries of scholars on the basis that they were also philosophers with heterodox beliefs. He states:“Great indeed is the crime against religion committed by anyone who supposes that Islam is to be championed by the denial of these mathematical sciences. For the revealed Law nowhere undertakes to deny or affirm these sciences, and the latter nowhere address themselves to religious matters.”4When one reads Imam al-Ghazali’s works at a very superficial level, one can easily misunderstand what he is saying as anti-scientific in general. The truth, however, is that al-Ghazali’s only warning to students is to not fully accept all the beliefs and ideas of a scholar simply because of his achievements in mathematics and science. By issuing such a warning, al-Ghazali is in fact protecting the scientific enterprise for future generations by insulating it from being mixed with theoretical philosophy that could eventually dilute science itself to a field based on conjecture and reasoning alone.
Thanks for the comment. My morals are based off a series of law, culture and stringent moral discussion and philosophy. Many are based upon hedonistic values of pleasure at the same time, they must not encroach on another persons rights or values (as long as theirs have the same basis). I believe most morals should revolve around what reduces physical pain for humans and other animals, this is universal and PAIN is something which causes suffering, which I am always against, in any fashion. :)
where can I see the whole talk?
think this was whole talk
I'm a Muslim and I'm a great science enthusiast, and many of the people I look up to are Scientists, as well as Neil deGrasse Tyson. With that said, Neil is very wrong in accusing Imam al-Ghazali of ending the golden age of Islam. I mean come on, one man ended the most civilised, science oriented, innovative, multi-cultured and multi-religious civilisation of that era? Come on, that's a very lazy analysis of a scientist of that stature. And Neil isn't a historian. It was Genghis that pretty much destroyed the backbone of the Islamic scientific revolution.
P.S. militant Atheists and Islamophobes just love to see Islam bashed, and such stuff usually comes out of their mouths. They can't accept the fact that a religion can cause such a scientific revolution and then use every means to discredit it. Or find ways to make religion the culprit that brought a demise to it.
Mohammed was one man and he changed the course of history.
Quilliam Attari agree, with all that technology and science, a cowherd from Mongolia totally almost anhilated us Muslims. What Imam Ghazali, Imam Rumi and such great teachers taught us is the fallacy of only relying on human reasoning. Stress on human; which is limited and often creates paradoxes and then creates absurd theories to peddle their pet philosophies. Imams Ghazali, himself a learned man, expert in teachings of ancient philosophers like Socrates, Plato & that as Aristotle, told about opening the other eye of Intuition alongside the eye of Reason and above all giving paramount importance to Faith. To such intangibles like Chivalry, Honour, Trust and downright Manliness; now that we cannot put them in equations. Looks at the crusades, a bunch of illiterate savages from mostly Western Europe, marching all the way across to 'Holy Land' and kicking the ass of Muslims who were busy between smoking the hukkah and contemplating about stars & shit. Science is useful but how come we have cures to horrifying diseases like malaria but still people die every year by thousands because of poverty.
May AllahuAkbar guide us all, Aameen
Much of what Tyson says in the above video is false. Including several of his claims regarding Ghazali and the history of the Islamic Golden Age. See hopsblog-hop.blogspot.com/2016/01/fact-checking-neil-degrasse-tyson.html
Anyone had a link to the full presentation?
“Whoever takes up these mathematical sciences marvels at the fine precision of their details and the clarity of their proofs. Because of that, he forms a high opinion of the philosophers and assumes that all their sciences have the same lucidity and apodeictic solidity as this science of mathematics.”
The danger in studying mathematics and other sciences, argues al-Ghazali, is not that the subject itself is contrary to Islam and should be avoided. Rather, the student must be careful to accept the scientific ideas of scholars without blindly accepting everything they say regarding philosophy and other problematic subjects.
That's why Quran says semen is from between ribs and spine.
Vas deferens are present near gonads not in between spine and ribs. Learn the human anatomy you ignorant brainwashed sheep.
Skid Row Did I say some thing different?
they developed in the abdomen and then descended into your scrotum via inguinal canal!!!!
//they developed in the abdomen /
Semen is produced by prostrate gland which is located bellow the bladder in front of the rectum. And last time I checked neither prostrate nor rectum is not located between 'ribs and spine'.
There's a new translation study going around indicating that the verse refers to the man and not the semen to be coming from between the ribs and spine.
Is there more of that video
What he does say was that old science and math was practiced by the priest class. They also practiced occult things like alchemy.
That is correct. It's well known that a persons morals can change when circumstances change. See for example the famous Stanford prison experiment (or every war, ever). Especially when you get an us vs. them mentality.
Nothing is "right" or "wrong" in an absolute sense, and morals change over time. But there is a lot of consensus about the overall morals independent from religion, and across societies. Other animals also posses morality so no matter the precise mechanism, it's deeply rooted.
I would like to add a very important element missing from Neil DeGrasse's presentation. The advancement of learning, science, math, astrology, etc during the Abbasid period and specifically in Baghdad was brought in by some of Iraq's most educated Christian minority, then named "Nestorians" but their national identity is that of Assyrians, remnants of the great Assyrian/Babylonian empires in the Cradle of Civilization, "Mesopotamia".
The Assyrians (Nestorian) Christians were educated in Syriac, Greek and Arabic. They were employed by the Caliphate to translate books from Greek into Arabic. These same Nestorians established two major universities one in today's Turkey, named "Edessa", another in today's Iran, named "Jundi Shapur". This is where not only Arabs and Persians became educated but even from Greece and elsewhere. Hunayn ibn Ishaq was an Assyrian, Nestorian by faith who's family for generations were the physicians for the Caliphate. "Kitab ila Aglooqan fi Shifa al Amraz" is one of his many Arabic translations of Galen's. Look up "Jabril Ibn Bukhtishu" and "Jirjis Ibn Bukhtishu", "Yuhanna Ibn Bukhtishu". Sergius of Reshaina.
Please look up "How Greek Science Passed to the Arabs" by by De Lacy O'Leary,
and search the internet about "Syriac literature".
Yes it is true about the Great Arab intelect between the 800-1200 AD many great works were accomplished, but Assyrian (Nestorians) Christians, who are still an important intellectual community in Iraq, Iran, Syria, Turkey and around the world, it was their hard work of translation, teaching and authoring that enabled the Arabs to achieve.
?
His way of thinking was one of the main reasons... Read his book called "The Incoherence of the Philosophers" and you would understand why! He was a major influence.
Now you're just twisting my words; when i said "in an absolute sense" I meant that there is no god that has decided for me what I should think is right or wrong. I know with myself what is right or wrong.
What I think is right or wrong does not always align with what others believe (e.g. I don't think it's wrong to be gay). If right/wrong was predefined in some way, shouldn't we all agree on it? And if it was, how would we even know? How could we find out what is right or wrong?
AJ, what do you mean by discussing via messages? Do you mean e-mail?
I think the point he's making is the very stark contrast of having a scientifically open society versus a theocratic one. It's easy to see that with contribution from all walks of life there will be great discovery, regardless of the math system being Indian, the point is Baghdad let Hindu's come in and share their ideas.....which is almost the opposite of what we see today.
Al-Ghazali came later on when the peak period of the inventions where between 600 and 1400 in Spain that's where all of the sciences came from .if what you say is true that happened around 1200 which is the decline of the Muslims era in Spain and the rise of the crusaders. Furthermore, he was not an Arab he was Persian.
What is the calculated likelihood for Intelligent design?
Well, this article shows some interesting facts: Facts of the Coppedge Lawsuit Contradict the Spin from Jet Propulsion Lab and National Center for Science Education. It was written on March 12 and can be found on the discovery institute website. I think that should give you the information you are wondering about.
that sums up mine pretty well. thx abe
Well, I'm Muslim. And I don't think he's blaming Islam or using propaganda at all. Tyson and people like him give me hope in this world.
"I cannot simply choose not to feel this way."
True, but that feeling will not guarantee that you always obey your feelings. A new video out by Ray Comfort entitled "Genius" on youtube shows that despite knowing something is "wrong" circumstances can easily change a person's willingness to compromise their morals.
But if murder is not wrong in an absolute sense, what does it matter anyway? Do it often enough and you will sear your conscience and you will be able to kill without guilt.
well, so how many stars do have names?
Neil deGrasse Tyson's Bush and Star Names story is a fiction. Bush's actual 9-11 speech was a call for tolerance and inclusion. It was delivered from a mosque. It most certainly was NOT an attempt to distinguish we from they.
See www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2014/09/27/neil-degrasse-tyson-admits-he-botched-bush-quote/
Tyson likes to say scientific literacy empowers you to know when someone is full of shit. And here we see legions of Tyson's fans swallowing his bull shit Bush and Star Names story, no questions asked. I guess Tyson's fans lack scientific literacy.
First thing, I'm just presenting the right history here.
Secondly, how do you "manipulate" 'us'? Give me specifications please.
Neil DeGrasse Tyson is awesome.
Neil deGrasse Tyson is an idiot.
Sean Davis debunked the Bush and Star Names story in 2014. Are you too fucking stupid to use Google?
The rest of the video is bull shit as well.
In europe you had people like thomas aquinas or sieger of brabant arguing for the teaching of aristotle, but since there was no destruction (of libraries and universities) on the same scale as that brought about by the mongols in the east, here the philosophers won the debate.
It doesn't even make sense that a scholar will say something ridiculous and in a culture which was so rich in science and philosophy and He would not even get away with it but people will suddenly leave all the knowledge that they Have and
Indeed. It is noteworthy that Ghazali never said that math was the work of the devil. Nor did Islamic innovation end with Ghazali. There were many Islamic mathematicians and scientists in the centuries following Ghazali.
His account of Bush's 9-11 speech is also false: www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2014/09/27/neil-degrasse-tyson-admits-he-botched-bush-quote/
I am hoping it will become widely know that Tyson is a source of misinformation.
"Well, the Lawgiver could tell us what His laws are."
Yeah, that would be nice. Also, he could prove his existence at the same time. He could end the entire debate in a heartbeat if he really wanted us to believe...
Could you please tell me why I should believe in a christian variety of god, and not, let's say, Zeus?
I love how people in the comment section emphasized the Mongol attack. It's as if people in Baghdad ceased to exist after the attack. The fact is, while the external factors did slowed down the scientific achievement of the Islamic community it's was the internal factor which breaks the speed into a screeching halt.
The screeching halt in Islamic innovation is a fiction. There were many Islamic mathematicians and scientists in the centuries following Ghazali. The father of symbolic algebra was born more than 3 centuries after Ghazali's death.
Also Ghazali never wrote that math is the work of the devil. That is another Tyson fiction.
Someone with critical thinking skills will make it a habit to challenge claims to see if they are supported by evidence. Tyson's fans are utterly lacking in these skills.
You do realize that the phrase “Baghdad ceased to exist after the attack” is actually quite accurate since Baghdad had lost a vast chunk of its population, and lots of key infrastructure was destroyed particularly mosques since that’s where many people would have learned to read at the time.
Do we even have those emails you mention?
So far, details about these emails are kind of like bigfoot. You hear about it, but you never see it.
what Neil Tyson is concerned about is somewhat legitimate because in the past discoveries were stolen, misinterpreted and changed to control the public. This has resulted in the public today being discouraged from making discoveries, however, since intrinsic intellectual autonomy cannot be sequestered, future discoveries cannot be held back. No matter what country, no matter what religion.
Christopher Hitchens' God Is Not Great subtitle says it all: "...Religion Poisons Everything"
When George Bush referred to "Our God" naming the stars, he was not talking about the Arabic names that human beings gave to them. He was talking about God's name for them. It's a reference from the Bible. Psalms 147:4-5 say, "He counts the number of the stars; He gives names to all of them. Great is our Lord, and abundant in strength; His understanding is infinite." God named the stars, not people. We just have temporary names for them while we're on this temporary planet.
And Bush said that in his eulogy for the Space Shuttle Columbia astronauts. He was not bragging about his God in "an attempt to distinguish we from they" after the 9-11 disaster.
Bush's actual speech was a call for tolerance and inclusion. It was delivered from a mosque.
www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2014/09/27/neil-degrasse-tyson-admits-he-botched-bush-quote/
I am hoping it will become widely known that Neil deGrasse Tyson is a source of misinformation.
How so?
What did the Arabs learnt since Islam , some of the things in astrology some 1400 years ago were, the planets and stars are receding, the stars shall fall or dissappear, the moon is moving away from earth, the planets move in an orbit and the amount of planets in our galaxy, the constellations and it's settings, the sun and a position it takes that's a phenomenon and so on. They also knew the borders of the earth will be reduced, that the seas will swell over, that there is a massive water under the earth, and the earth will have many shocks, and something will happen to the sun
Persians were the main force behind the "islamic" golden age, influenced by Zoroastrians.
I thought it was the Quran...otherwise there would be no golden age and i am pretty sure
Baghdad was the intellectual center of the world at that time ...
I agree Persians played a part but the Quran was the main force .
Teck Tronic baghdad was dominated by ethnic Persians. There was baghdad ajam (Persians) and baghdad arab. Also if it was the wuran then why were Persians making mlre discoveries than arabs in the empire?
Darius Ashkani
If it were not for the Quran there would be no islamic empire ..
Eleck Teck if there was no zoroastrianism there would be no islam.
Darius Ashkani I don't think you know what your talking about.
You don't know the history of "Islam" and how it started. How do I know that? because you just said "if there was no zoroastrianism there would be no islam." which shows your lack of knowledge, and shows how you are just another man with an opinion based on you wanting to be right no matter what.
Before Islam(When christians were gone to Europe), the Arabian world was nothing but ignorance. People worshipping stones, men and women turned to slaves...ect.
After Islam came to the picture, these people got enlightened by the Quran's verses, their understanding of the universe got different, All slaves were free'd from their masters, Women got more equality, and then muslim scholars started to learn the science of life. That's when the islamic Golden age started.
Muslim scholars started inviting all type of scientists, either it is a Jew, or a christian, or Zoroastians to form this knowledge of science.
Algebra, Alcohol, the '123' numbers, naming of stars, and the discovery that the universe is actually bigger than what humans thought it would be, started in this Islamic Golden age.
Arabians also started getting inspired by the Greeks mythologies, so they started to translate all the greek books to arabic to understand their science.
So here you go, this is a piece of history for you.
Next time do some research before posting a false fact like "if there was no zoroastrianism there would be no islam"
Your welcome :)
"It's just as hard for me as for you to go against my own morals."
To be honest, I still struggle with doing what is right at times. It's not that hard to sin.and I'd be surprised if that is not true of you too. If it is, you are a better man than I am, but you still are not perfect and are therefore in need of God's forgiveness.
As a Muslim I completely agree with what he said, (I honestly admire Neil deGrasse Tyson) but I can't agree with 7:53 "revelation replaced investigation".
When you look at Islam and why it even fostered or tolerated all the scientific endeavors during the Islamic Golden age you realize that it came directly from the Quran and Islam itself. The Quran encourages us Muslims to constantly think and ponder about our world and pursue knowledge in all fields.
That statement of "revelation replaced investigation" can't really be applied to Islam when the revelation itself promotes the investigation. It was Ghazali (as he said himself) coupled with the invasion of Genghis Khan that demolished Baghdad and killed millions of Muslims (can't believe NDGT didn't mention this as being a pretty big factor into the decline of the Golden age lol..), which led to the unfortunate fall of Islam's golden age.
"Quran encourages us Muslims to constantly think and ponder about our world"
could you please provide the verses that support this statement?
and could you please compare these with the hundreds - maybe thousands - that call for death to apostates, death to homosexuals, death to non- believers, etc., etc.
As an ex-Muslim I have to say, it is actually there are some phrase in Quran and Hadith said Muslim have to learn. But the problem is the end of islamic golden age is that science is not compatible with Islam, or every religion. most of claimed 'muslim' scholars stated contradictory to Islam. Ibn Rushd said didn't believe in personal God, Ibn Sina said didn't believe in afterlife.
Mongols is not the only factor (it is external factor), Majority of Muslim believe in Al-Ghazali's philosophy, just like Neil said his ideas is the reason that Islam is fall.
Noo, using UA-cam messages - they have no character limit. When you're viewing your comment responses, look to the column on the left - there should be a part 2 points up called "Personal Messages" I'll send you one as an example... Then you just hit reply and send one back, etc.
Great👍👍👍
i read most of the comments here and i havent seen just one comment that gets down to the bottom of it.
the problem you people dont understand is that all the religious books in the world, say tovra, bible, 10 commandments w/e, all of them r about religion. they r about morals and the ways of god. quran is not a religious book, its a law book. and if u ever bothered to read it, u d have understood that already. it doesnt tell u how to worship, it tells u how to live. some examples: muslims dont eat pork because quran says that it is a dirty meat coming from a dirty animal. but the reality is more simpler. as many of u already know, especially if u r into cooking, that pork is actually a meat that contains ridiculous amounts of harmful bacteria, if not tended correctly. another example: muslims dont drink alcohol. because quran says the alcohol clouds ur judgement, prevents u to take logical decisions and actions...well most of the time :) yes, maybe it is a sin but it also explains WHY it is a sin.
and why am i explaining all this? because u need to understand one fact: quran is a law book. it can be used to manipulate people, especially the religious, devout people. and so far it has been used exactly for this purpose, since the above mentioned "golden age of islam"
if you are refering to me the biggest animal that i ve killed so far was a locust :)
there r parts that i agree and there r parts that i dont. every religion has both negative and positive aspects, theres no such thing as "the perfect religion"
Finally, a creationist with rational questions. I'm concerned when someones values involve hurting or destroying the rights of someone else, and yes, I will go out of my way to argue that that persons value system is wrong. I think mine are superior, but why would I live by mine if I believed they were inferior? The entire point of my system is to find a system which is rational and does not depend on the words of ancient myth. I wouldn't say I specifically get pleasure, it just feels necessary.
You mean all of it or an you be specific?
All I know is that my consciousness is limited and reality is not. Just because I can't look any further doesn't make for a bottom or ceiling to reality, nor does it mean that whatever my senses suggest is the only reality out there. That's really basic,
Everything is changing... do I really need to explain or can we take that for granted?
I love his passion. This was fascinating.
It was also false
@@supernova1976 What was false in the video.
@@loganburde2838 The info was presented in a way to blame religion for stopping science and progress. If you read history you will see this isn't true , politics and power played the role and the whole empire collapsed due to the natural cycle it had nothing to do with Islam , in fact most of the golden age of discoveries was during Islamic period and one of the most known scientist who built center to teach and research is the direct dicendant of prophet Mohammad ( Imaam Jafar Alsaadiq) to this day we are using his discoveries in chemistry. The whole Qur'an constantly reminding people to learn seek knowledge and praise scientists and those who think. If people do otherwise for one reason or another does that make the religion wrong or people's decisions? You can always cherry pick parts of history and present it in any way to fit your agenda.
@@supernova1976 I see what you mean here. But I am unsure if he was specifically blaming religion for its collapse, it seemed he was more saying the philosophy change within the era is where a lot of the collapse began.
I am not doubting your point here though, what you say here is largely true but it is good to remember that philosophy in an empire or nation can change things drastically in terms of education, I think that was what he was trying to say.
@@loganburde2838 Fully agree with your point . Regarding Neil in general he tries to make everything to prove God doesn't exist and it is obvious 😊
It is so helpful to listen to Neil DeGrasse Tyson. He helps me deal with all the lies I have been told. He is the best concentrated lie juice out there.
+meconnectesimplement Actually I don't think Tyson is lying. He's delivering false information, yes. But I wouldn't call it a lie unless he intentionally misleads.
+Hollister David I have not implied that HE lied but you are :)
+meconnectesimplement Tyson's account of Bush's speech is completely messed up. You are stunningly stupid if you believe it to be correct info.
+meconnectesimplement ""I have not implied that HE lied but you are :)""
Tyson admitted the story is false: www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2014/09/27/neil-degrasse-tyson-admits-he-botched-bush-quote/
It is fun watching the applause and laughter as Tyson serves his bull shit. In truth these self proclaimed skeptics are credulous idiots.
:D
The fact he is admitting his error for one item out of several lies does not mean anything more than he is a way more skilled liar than I thought. The best lies are in fact the ones covered with accepted truths or falsely displayed intellectual elegance. That being said, let me clarify: I am confirming my first post was not implying he was lying even though I know he always does (read again), it was yours that was implying it as a possibility.
Brother is right. I totally agree.
You would think an intellectual religious order would go back to their inclusive institutions within a decade of any atrocity no matter how large the atrocity. Islam might be food for a soul for now, but there is a limit to how long that recipe for life lasts. We live in a more modern age, and we need a better one.
I read that too. I guess it depends which side you believe is more credible.
Half of United States in periodic table😂😂😂😂
The numerals were borrowed from Indians; the came from India to Europe via Arabia. However the middle east did lot of contribution during 10th century.
Feelings alone does not determine morality, but they are a powerful factor.
The drug lords you mention, they themselves might not consider their horrible actions as that bad or amoral. However, I believe everyone else agree that such actions are as wrong as it gets.
What they did would be wrong in an as absolute sense as possible, but not in a divine sense as you imply (due to there being no such thing as deities).
Naming rights... there's a problem with the premisse:
Why isn't every math formula (discovered by Euler) named after Euler? (I mean, I know why: because 90% of formulas would be named Euler's formula... imagine confusing Euler's constant 2.718... and Euler-Mascheroni[which was discovered by Euler, alone) constant 0.577...)
Why a lot of discoveries follow Stigler's\* law of eponymy(a.k.a. not named after their actual discoverers)? \*btw this guy wasn't the first, so even that is also an example.
Your choice of the word "sheeple" is a bit amusing to me considering the first sentence of the Lord's prayer is "The Lord is my shepherd." What would that make his followers exactly?
Actually direct observation leads to this theory.When you observe galaxies you see them accelerating away from our galaxy. We know they are moving away because of the light being redshifted.In fact every galaxy is moving away from every other galaxy. When you rewind the clock backwards all the galaxies come to a single point.There is also the cosmic microwave background radiation which points to a more uniform universe in the past.Religions on the other hand can be traced back to their creation.
That outcome would depend heavily upon each individual kid, and their background. Also, at what age they are given this freedom? If you take a group of adults, leave them to themselves. What rules will they come up with? Strict? Lenient? sensible? reasonable?
It's a pointless thought experiment, and the outcome does not transfer to god being a bad parent for humans (I assume that is what you're getting at).
I clearly do understand infinity and it has little to do whith whatever mathematicians make of it.
and averroes wrote a reply called the incoherence of incoherence, defending the study of greek philosophers (people seem to forget how much ancient greeks influenced the so called "islamic" golden age). At the time of the mongol invasion there was a conflict (similar to the one being carried in europe at the same time) between religion and philosophy. The mongol invasion (+the destruction of libraries) determined the outcome of the debate in favor of religion. In Europe, philosophy won.
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He talks about how we use god to explain things we can't explain (instead of saying "i don't know") and then we stop discovering new things. Once something has been figured out however, we no longer need god to understand it, and we push the boundary forward.
Yes, Tyson likes to say that Newton could have easily done Laplace's n-body models in an afternoon. But he didn't bother because he had God on the brain.
However Tyson's story is fiction. Newton invested considerable time and effort on the 3 body system of the earth moon and sun. So Tyson's claim is demonstrably false from the get go.
After Newton tried Leonhard Euler took a crack at it. If you're the typical Neil deGrasse Tyson fan you're probably thinking "Who the fuck is Euler?" Euler is possibly the greatest mathematician that ever lived. Laplace held that opinion. But being part of the I Fucking Love Science Crowd you likely hate that poopy math and have never heard of Euler.
After Euler tried Joseph Lagrange took a crack at it. Lagrange is another great mathematician you've likely never heard of.
More than 100 years later Laplace built an n-body model that explained the stability of the solar system. But he built on the work of Newton, Euler and Lagrange.
Tyson's claim that Newton could have easily done it in one afternoon is one of the most excruciatingly stupid claims ever made.
Oh, by the way -- Newton did NOT invent calculus on a dare in two months before he turned 26. See thonyc.wordpress.com/2017/06/14/why-doesnt-he-just-shut-up/
You have to be a particularly credulous fucktard to swallow Tyson's bull shit. Sadly credulous fucktards are legion in this here United States of 'MURICA!! It is idiots like you who elected Donald Trump.
but outside of being a figurehead of religion how would he get the title of Imam and why was his word taken seriously in that region and time? yes religion.
(This is my second comment, be sure to read the first!) I really don't like the 500 character limit on these comments, I feel like I leave a lot out - I'm a graduate, so I feel like I need more space to make a good point, sorry if my comments seem short, but if you'd like to discuss it via messages, I'd be perfectly happy to do so :)
and what evidence can you provide to support this?
Always wondered what happened to Islamic civilization. Now I know. Thanks, Dr. Tyson.
+S Bassett Just what is it you know? History is a little more complicated than Tyson's glib and error riddle accounts. If Tyson told you his farts smelled like roses, you'd accept that for truth.
It's amusing that self proclaimed skeptics seem willing to accept their own doctrines without question.
The danger in studying mathematics and other sciences, argues al-Ghazali, is not that the subject itself is contrary to Islam and should be avoided. Rather, the student must be careful to accept the scientific ideas of scholars without blindly accepting everything they say regarding philosophy and other problematic subjects.
He goes on to state that there is another danger for an ignorant student of the sciences, and that is the rejection of all scientific discoveries of scholars on the basis that they were also philosophers with heterodox beliefs. He states:
“Great indeed is the crime against religion committed by anyone who supposes that Islam is to be championed by the denial of these mathematical sciences. For the revealed Law nowhere undertakes to deny or affirm these sciences, and the latter nowhere address themselves to religious matters.”
I'm actually taking notes on this for a history project. Neil Degrasse Tyson is awesome
I agree with Tyson except that he is forgetting another major event that took place in the same 300 year period that also played a major role in the decline if the Islamic Golden Age.... THE CRUSADES
Jerusalem != Baghdad
Hi AJ,
As an atheist how do set your own moral standards? What do you base your standards on? Why do you bother to set standards for yourself when they are meaningless? I mean, it really doesn’t matter if you keep them or not, does it? The only repercussion for breaking them is a guilty conscience and you know, as a good atheist, that your conscience is just a figment of your imagination, right?
By the way, just curious, but what are the standards you have set for yourself today?
Actually that is why the Big Bang has not been promoted to Theory yet. A theory is a model of facts and laws that encompass a specific field of study. Because of the fact that there are aspects of the big bang event that are still in the hypothetical stage, the Big Bang is still a hypothesis, despite being a well supported one.
Is it not the crusades that were responsible for the downfall of middle east and rise of the Europe? However influential a philosopher can be, no single person , except if he is a king , can cause such a sudden decline.
No the Crusades failed, the Muslims won, the downfall was their own fault and lack of ability to adapt, that and the Mongol invasion. Tehran is arguably the modern Baghdad
other than the crusaders being allied with the mongols and aiding them in heir rampage the crusades didn't have a big impact on the islamic world.
BountyFlamor wasn't much of an alliance anyway, the Mongols never took Jerusalem according to most sources, the alliance fell through and the Mongols invaded Europe instead going as far as Poland, till the Hussars turned the tide
"Ps: Have you noticed that a persons morals seem to align with their interpretation of their religion?"
And your point is what? Actually, I would bet that most people regardless of their worldview, even atheists, believe that murder, cheating, torture, robbing, rape, etc. is "wrong". Actually, to be consistent, an atheist can only say these things are distasteful - that he doesn't like them and thinks others should avoid them, but there is no true right and wrong for atheists.
The problem with current society today is that we are told to choose either religion or science. But that is not fair. We need both, the science should be taught in the science class and the religion should be taught in the region class and no one should be forces on either of them. You all heard the story of a religious man on the top of his house because of a flood and refused to get help because God will save him then after he dies Got told him that he sent him a helicopter and he refused.
Coppedge was never demoted, all that happened was he lost his leadership title and responsibilities, that was it, he didn't receive a pay cut or anything, and it was for what in any respect was unprofessional behaviour.
Even then, their testimony indicated that he was only kind and well mannered BEFORE he started controversial subjects, after which it all went downhill from there.
there is an article from the LA Times "Computer specialist contends his views cost him his job at JPL"
This might explain why there's no Africanium on the Periodic table.
He explains that if you actually watch the video. Pro tip.
"Animals do not have moral standards."
We do not posess mind-reading technology so it's almost impossible to tell what an animal is thinking. I would expect primates and elephants at least to have guilt, but there have been interesting finds in other species.
"One researcher noticed that rats, when showed that whenever they ate an entirely separate group of rats were shocked with electricity, didn't eat even when they were hungry."
Book 039, Number 6739:
Anas b. Malik reported that Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: Verily, Allah does nut treat a believer unjustly in regard to his virtues. He would confer upon him (His blessing) in this world and would give him reward in the Hereafter. And as regards a non-believer. he would be made to taste the reward (of virtue in this world) what as has done for himself so much that when it would be the Hereafter. he would find no virtue for which he should be rewarded.
worldview: an overall perspective from which one sees/interprets the world. A collection of beliefs about life & the universe. It answers questions like Who are we? Where did we come from? Why are we here? Where are we going? Is there a God? Why does suffering exist? Where does morality come from? etc. Although atheists might not all have the same answers, their answers to these Qs are deeply colored by their atheistic beliefs. So to me it is a worldview, but why is this important?
"Do you suggest that morality is absolute and written in a book and personal morals are thus inherently wrong?"
No. Most personal morals agree w/the Bible, but morality can't be fully dictated. The Bible gives moral principles that we need to apply in our lives. Not everything is clearly written out. There are even gray areas where room for personal standards are given. Morality is defined by the character of God Himself, who is perfect. When personal morals differ w/that, yes, they're wrong.
That is EXACTLY what he is talking about. The progress of understanding shadowed by spiritual beliefs.
There are more categories for the Nobel than just biology. The two examples you provided are would both be amazing biological achievements but Dr. Tyson referenced the Muslim community to mathematics and astronomy. Are those also against Muslim beliefs?
So you give me an article from the discovery institute. Which at worst can be paraphrased as "Stop handing out DVDs and prosthelytizing while you'e on the clock, it's pissing people off."
Wow...never knew this :o
Congrates. You filled up with lies. Check what Muhammad Hijab replied to him
Sure. I also believe that some of our ethical standards are learned from our parents and environment. I don't question that. But we are capable of morality and ethics simply because we are humans made in God's image. Whether there are absolute moral standards or not has nothing to do with that.
Are you talking about the "absolute right and wrong" that makes it okay to fly planes into buildings, erratic a whole race of people(Holocaust) or religion(Crusades)?
READ! The criterion that made the Middle Eastern Civilisation mass fall and Western Civilization mass rise is the acknowledgment and use of the Gutenberg's Machine "The Printer". THe same goes for the internet. READ!
Primates have the most complex social systems known, and we spend a fairly long time before we are capable of surviving on our own.
A giraffe (or similar) cannot carry their young, so they young has to walk by itself within a short time. I see no other option.
Now, we know how species evolve, and sexual reproduction (with mothers/fathers) is something that has evolved over time. Most macroscopic organisms maintain it, so it must be an advantage (better adaptation, etc.).
I would appreciate it if you would explain. You made the claim that the universe is "infinite and ever changing" and when asked for evidence your argument essentially boils down to "because i said so".
Pissible. Oh Tobias Beer, you do make such profound and rational arguments.
Keeping in mind that there are no certainties in life, things run really smoothly on my end of the stick. I can learn whatever I want and back it by whatever I want. We're only expected to have faith it's true, nothing else. Which is why I will never tell you that my belief is unquestionably correct or that I am better than you because I have God on my side. Because truth be told, I don't actually KNOW anything.
"But there is a lot of consensus about the overall morals independent from religion, and across societies."
There is more than one explanation for this. It could also be a result of God having written His laws on our heart and making us moral beings in His image.
What motivation is there for an atheist to "do the right thing" when it means sacrifice for himself?
ie like telling the truth when it means admitting a crime, turning a friend in for a crime he did, etc.
"Once something has been figured out however, we no longer need god to understand it, and we push the boundary forward."
Two can play your game. I think there might be future evidence that will further strengthen the idea of the existence of God. So be careful in jumping to conclusions!
going back in the milennia - the great masters and sages that had the truths of energy, time, energy, physics etc had always been eventually distorted, persecuted, killed ... so that the ambitions of others would destroy all that was on their way - it continues to happen ... that has been the fate of rome, greece, egypt and many more civilizations ....
That golden age would've happened again if Mossad didn't assassinate all those Arab scientists in the 20th century