Its pretty "the same" in terms of rotation, but its just 111, 222, use you vicewinder combo whenever you want, have double/triple reawaken set up by the 2 minute mark. I dont know how I exactly to feel about it, but it looks more like a "duelist/hunter" vibe than a "rattling poisonous viper" kind of vibe now. I mean it is what is I guess since that seems to be only acceptable behavior these days.
Dragoon Player here and it definitely isn't my first time . RIP "ring of thorns" this was a massive blow to the early dragoon experience vs groups of mobs . The skill we got as a replacement was quite pathetic in comparison .
It seems as if many classes this expac either got heavily simplified/lost parts of their identity, or got barely any changes at all, for the better or worse
Viper not having a DoT with all the poison/snake themed moves was already ridiculous. Removing its silly version of Death's Design is insane. Why even call it a Viper at this point? You might as well just call it Twinblade or something. The snake motif was already stretched pretty thin and now just doesn't even fit the gameplay at all.
Slither is the real identity. If they made it like dancer dash and/or target it would have been amazing though probably a little too strong lol. Vipers can cheat uptime on so much this tier just with slithers ally dash. Need partners? Focus partner Slither. Need light party? Slither on over. Feels very snakelike to me. I do think on Death Rattle a stacking with cap duration poison would have been cool
This was one of those youtube recommendations from a channel I've never heard of, but I decided to take a peek at this video. The immediate 30XX music tells me that you have good taste.
I felt vpr was my favorite job. It was simple but felt really busy. Now vpr feels boring. Debuff removal means combo just boils down to 111 222 and you just press dreadwinder when you have it. Feels like all the small decision making it had is gone
Before it was just 111>122>112>121 etc and never press 2XX unless you physically need to. If anything post change its more straight forward to play, but complex to actually function and perform. There was no decisionmaking before, and none now. Just like every single job in the game, you have 1 skill path you will always use, and never deviate from, unless you die or mess up.
but isnt the debuff just an increased danage? lol doesnt seem like they changed much just increased the timers to you buffs and increase the damage to the debuffed damage fully so idk why people are mad
The reason is caus euou had to plan your rotation, you cant just throw out whatever, if you overcap your debuff you lose out on damage, if your debiff ran out mid double reawaken, losing damage,
I hate this change for the following reasons: 1. They gave us no notice they'd remove Noxious Gnash and force you to start only following the glowing buttons making it more braindead autopilot, catering to the lowest common denominator of people who aren't willing to learn the job properly, 2. Removing NG disconnects Dreadwinder- no, sorry, Vicewinder (eugh) and Vicepit from the rest of the kit and even to some degree Reawaken, 3. Making it an endless combo changes it from 2 buttons to watch to now constantly watching the hotbar to make sure you don't misinput also getting you trapped in a neverending combo that also is easy to lose your place thanks to transforming buttons or shifting your mental focus elsewhere like Vicewinder or a boss encounter, 4. There was expression on when and how you apply NG, like do you double up at the start or do you continue alternating? Do you start Reawaken or go for an Uncoiled Fury depending on your time? Did you set yourself up in advance with enough time and/or a Dreadwinder? That kinda stuff. 5. It wasn't replaced with anything, it was just taken out and given a band-aid solution to keep the general rotation going without thinking about the ripple effect it would have, 6. Noxious Gnash served as a better visual queue for whether you needed to start on 1 or not, and then you got to choose when to start on 2. That was fully in your control before, now it's not, which leads to my last point: 7. A lot of the "free-flow" identity of the job got destroyed and replaced with something spammier and more monotonous and clunky to play. There was more emphasis on setup and payoff (properly managing NG timing) that required some actual skill that paid off in heavier-hitting Reawakens and Uncoiled Fury's if you knew what you were doing. The nuance was in the fine details and how controlling your NG buff and timing let you control that freeflow of your own accord, but now it's literally only follow-the-buttons. Dumbed down yet smaller margin of error. It sucks. Change it back to 7.01.
@M1SF0RTUNE Reading this comment is just evidence that you haven't learned how to read the "useless" Vipersight Gauge if you really believe this change forces you to stare at your hotbar. Vipersight allows me to keep my combo flowing without even having to check which combo step I'm on. Also Vicewinder isn't disconnected from your rotation -- it gives you Rattling Coils. If you think that's "disconnected" then you likely aren't using Uncoiled Fury at all or at least aren't worried about overcapping, in which case they removed Noxious Gnash specifically for those players. Overcapping Rattling Coils is basically impossible now that you don't have to spend them between upkeeping Noxious Gnash -- which was already basically impossible to drop to begin with if you were just rotating your 1's properly and using your one charge of Dreadwinder outside of buffs on cooldown.
@@ezrasilver9819I see the vipersight argument but what he says really focuses on the monotonous auto pilot even without the gauge the classes was simple, but it boils down to now the class doesn’t have a real error other than overcap which is in every job in the game pretty much, and no Nash was unique but it was how it was implemented simpler then death’s design awkwardness but allowed for freedom and reward for uptime and proper setup now the class plays itself and doesn’t really have any real reward or really any real optimization other then uptime and greed which again is on every other melee, I understand we don’t all try to push for high levels of optimization and want an easy playing fast class but not every class has to be changed to cater for everyone slight skill issue if you failed to upkeep Nash, now it’s we can all do good damage without trying
@CRXII This I feel is a better argument than what the original commenter was driving at. I don't necessarily disagree with you, and I do empathize with the people that are missing the loss of Noxious Gnash, but in my opinion it just was not as core to the job's identity to me as it was for others. Ever since Viper was first teased, I understood the "challenge" of Viper was to be placed in properly maintaining your rotation while cycling through multiple combo paths simultaneously -- and this change shifts the gameplay more in line with that direction. Feel free to disagree with me; I took issue with the OP's reasoning, not their opinion.
Tracking the debuff timer of NG was not skill, sorry to break it to you. It was muscle memory. You just used the (weaker potency) combo starter to upkeep it every 2-3 full combos. That is not a skill, nor was it a core identity of the job. If you have to watch your hotbar constantly with the new changes there is something else wrong. You literally just alternate the combo starter. NG added nothing to the job, and unlike upkeeping deaths design on reaper, NG was punishing should downtime or a mistake cause it to fall off mid reawaken. Reaper can freely put DD back on the target during enshroud (enshroud is literally just reawaken) but viper is locked out of every form of NG application while reawaken is up. The viper changes make the job flow better. Did I have trouble keeping the debuff on? No, but I still see this as a very positive change to the job.
@@monkymann5834 Yes, I find the original commenter's complaints confusing as, if anything, I've found that the change now forces me to rotate my combo routes MORE frequently than it did before... How can the rotation be autopilot yet at the same time require you to stare at your hotbar to execute properly? Doesn't make any sense.
Post patch, literally whenever you want such that you don't overcap. Outside of tincture phase, Press it to gain a rattling coil for downtime and use rattling coils during downtime or before overcapping. You won't save twinblade combo for any burst phases since you'll be awakening, and should simply prioritize using it to re-buff yourself during downtime or death.
Eh, I don't miss it. I don't miss them taking away Demolish DoT on Monk, either. Hell, I wouldn't mind them taking away Death's Design and just buffing potency and Soul Gauge generation to compensate.
honestly I was really upset seeing the changes this patch. Leading up to it my only complaint with viper was actually that I didn't like the positionals on the Dreadwinder combo follow-up since there is a mandatory double weave (I'm australian playing on NA so the latency makes double weaving a little bit iffy even with the bigger windows on Hunter's Coil and Swiftkin's Coil). So for me the only thing I wanted was a removal of the positional requirements on Hunter's Coil and Swiftkin's coil because I felt like the class was already busy enough as it is to not need the 2 extra positionals that those provided. I would have preferred if they'd increased the amount of time given to noxious nash's maximum so that it was a 60 second max but I was actually okay with the 20 second timer because it gave the job a nice flow. These changes legitimately made me not want to play the class anymore. I'm very tempted to see what the forums are saying about it because I feel like they severely missed the mark on this one. They saw people complaining that the job was too busy and too complicated but imho the only thing that made me every not like playing the class was the positionals attached to Hunter's Coil and Swiftkin's Coil. Whenever an enemy had no positionals the amount of brain power I had to use substantially decreased and I could just focus on the really beautiful rotation the class had. I hope they walk back the changes or maybe just take out the damage and make the debuff a DoT instead
I did have a hard time at the very start of unlocking Viper but that was more the game not having a lot of clarity in what buttons transform into what. Feel like the game needs a proper flow chart like they have on the job guide itself in the in-game job menu. That aside, I really enjoyed the management involved in keeping Noxious Gnash going while fitting in Reawakens. They didn't need to go this far in simplifying the job while also making it deal more damage, give that to the players that want added difficulty in their rotations, that debuff wasn't hard to manage in most situations.
Biggest head scratcher of the day. What is this random ass INSIDE THE MONTH job rework? The job was fine! So fine. Super easy. Keep up your debuff and push your shiny buttons. Hit the double Awaken and go goblin mode. Sure, leave Picto the way it is and kick SAM in the shins, whatever, but why in the WORLD would they make these sweeping changes? Who were these people complaining that job was too hard? I have a great match three game I can recommend for them.
Instead of outright removing the debuff timer, they should add a DoT. Fits the Viper theme. I personally hated the debuff as it was constantly something I had to reapply, as it only added 20 seconds on a cap of 40. I would have preferred they just made it a solid 60 seconds, every time you reapply adding 30 seconds, that way you got more uptime on the first combo that did more damage and we keep a debuff/venom theme. Adding a DoT on top of all of this would be even better, for more complexity.
Noxious Gnash debuff timer management was the only fun thing about this class to me, and now that it's gone, it's basically just Reaper lite without the utility
I’m sad I never got the chance to experience any combat with Viper before the changes. I was looking forward to having to manage the debuff, but I unlocked the class just before the maintenance and then hopped off the game.
Viper is disappointing yet i find myself playing it alot... Then again i don't really expect Squenix to consider Complexity in a Jobs general design, infact I'd go as far to say that they have a Phobia of Complexity sometimes, because Even babies need to be able to play every class in the game without exception
Personally I don't care if a job is easy to play or not. I will play Viper regardless for this tier. But I am extremely surprised that they make it THIS easy. I logged in to raid with my static, not realizing that the job had changed. So I finished raiding and went to see what my optimal rotation would be, andddd I was already doing it!? Just pressing the glowing buttons. LOL
Thats still how the job played prior to the change. Instead of muscle memory pressing the (at the time) weaker combo starter you only ever pressed it every 2-3 combos. Now you alternate. The job is the exact same level of easy that it was before and the rotation is basically no different.
It’s so funny because I was contemplating using viper or Sam for the raid tier but I ended up staying with bard and got most of my gear before the patch and they changed both of those jobs. I do feel for you though man sorry. Hopefully they bring back the debuff.
@@TheChozenOneTV hey even tho those samurai changes looked like nerfs it’s actually a pretty nice buff. You can do tsubame gaeshi after every single midare now without a cooldown. Rip viper tho 😭
@@bigbluepurple word? I think I might pick up Sam as a side job then but bard definitely is gonna help me get into those ques. Especially with viper being EVEN EASIER lmao.
@@bigbluepurple RIP VIPER???? you're actually trolling. there is no way you genuinely think viper is dead from this change. it is the 3rd highest DPS on average across the entire savage tier rn and it's beating SAM in every single one
I was having fun with Viper, figuring out that I could do build up by debuff and then skip it ocasionally with a harder hitting combo was a interesting development. But man these changes just arnt it. If I want to play a Job where is press 1 combo then do the other combo, ill play Dragoon because atleast then I have skills to be weaving and more to consider in each burst phase. God Viper was fine just why did square think this would go over well... hopefully they will change course but man it doesnt feel likely.
@@setsuna5919 No, it's exactly the same. People are whining "oh no they removed my debuff" when the debuff was pointless to begin with. If you were doing your rotation you had that up at all times. It was a debuff that required no upkeep or paying attention to. This is not a Samurai Kaiten situation like the community is crying about. It's literally a buff too, no more Reaving Maw on AoE wall to wall pulls when it's not your combo. Because a lot of dungeons have walls off preventing you from pulling straight to or in the boss. If I were to go extremist about this, the ones complaining about this removal are the ones ruining FF14 as we speak. Pictomancer & Viper are both jobs that have no skill ceiling whatsoever. If you are upset about the removal of this mechanic because you think it's engaging. You are the reason why Endwalker & Shadowbringers were toddler tier in difficulty. Now if you were somebody who didn't like the roleplay of the job, the fact that there's nothing 'viper-like' about it other than this debuff. That's understandable. But you have to understand it was a useless mechanic to begin with. We finally get an expansion that appeals to midcore players and the community bitches, i'm not standing for it.
I think them removing the debuff sucks cause it fits the theme, it requires managing the timer with your combo and just overall gives more utility to the team. Sadly I don’t think it’s ’holy shit the jobs is shit now’ like I’ve read here. They made it a little simpler where it didn’t need it and it sucks but if they wanted a very simple melee dps people don’t need super intensive guides to understand then that’s what they want.
that's such a stupid change. the job was already simple, learn a few positions, that's it. now you have even less input in what to do. they could replaced everything for a single skill that you press, and it will just execute the next combo automatically as gcd ends -- I don;t follow job changes closely, so I was very confused when I played viper today and the buff wasn't there. edit: some context: I'm your filty will-do-everything-solo-if-I-coud casual player. I mained BRD until post EW, changed now to GNB. I've picked up Viper to complete all the role quests, alongside Picto and Astro, since every other job I have is around at lvl 70. But when I started DT role quest, I liked it enough that I want to complete them all as soon as possible. I tried viper, it was fun, now I don't know, it is, disappointing, at best; could just be removed the game and no one would miss this current state, at worst.
Dragoon lost not only Dragon Sight FYI. Also the 2 Charge Jump. Thats 2 Skills entirely removed from Dragoon not just 1. :| I'm not a Viper Player, so can't say much about it. Just wanted to make the Comment about Dragoon abit clearer :)
A lot of people have been saying this doesn't really change anything... but please consider! It was imperative to re-up NG just before beginning re-awakening burst, and also to save dual-blade combo near burst phases to safely re-apply NG for the following coils near the end of buff phase. Removing the debuff means you no longer have to prep or save resources before your burst phase, which was akin to saving job gauge on SAM or holding wyrmwind thrust when buffs were coming back up. Having a button to press and knowing you need to save it is extra job complexity. Needing to press a button before a critical timing in rotation is extra job complexity, and the removal of noxious gnash has removed this on all fronts. The job was always "press glowing button if you dont care to pay more attention" but now its "just press glowing button lol"
@@Ahappysandwich The unfortunate truth is that this is simply false, and I can understand if that doesn't seem to be the case at face value, since at face value it might not look like a big deal and wouldn't be for one of bards dots or even maybe Reaper's death's design. Your gameplan has gone from using your special buttons to upkeep your buffs and debuffs and work around short timers to just pressing buttons to keep them from overcapping CD or stacks. Unlike other Melees even such as Samurai, you don't even need to save Rattling Coils or dreadwinders, as your 22-second double awakening phase will go longer than most raid buffs which last only 20 seconds. You no longer need to save resources, you no longer need to upkeep a debuff, your GCD rotation is now a 2 GCD dragonkick-bootshine with a static finisher at the end. I can understand people preffering an easier "summoner" like class even though I vehemently believed that melee didn't need another one (Dragoon fills this archetype for melee), but to say that not much is changed is simply a true misunderstanding of how the job worked then vs now.
@@TEKn011 Again, it doesn't change much. The job itself plays the same fundamental . Be honest with yourself. Tell me, if you got a player and they read what you just said, do you honestly think they would find that fun? And really, FF14 doesn't have enraged bosses or fights that are really punishing for the most part, where being the most optimal isnt even required. Most of what you just said is all about playing around with optimization. Which is really only applicable in Ultimate's and Savage, where there's less leeway and enrage timers. Viper still plays the same fundamentally; yes, obviously there are some changes, but the job itself plays relatively the same. you are still pressing the same buttons and playing the same way, nothing that you mentioned changes the job fundamentally just that its easier to manage. Having DRK use Dark arts to alter the effects of certain skills to it just being a passive darkside damage increase was a fundamental change If you like optimizing your jobs to the max, that's fine. I also know some enjoy that, but I like how Viper plays and how it is. Let people enjoy that not everything has to be you need to save your resources every 120s so that the DNC and AST use their damage buffs that last 20s while the DRG pops his direct crit buffs and needs to align with everything to prevent skill drifting
@@Ahappysandwich Again, it changes a lot at a specifically fundamental level, and I'll break it down for you, because I know that at face value it may not seem like that. It can be very hard to conceptualize what I'm saying versus how they translate into actual button presses in game, and while it sounds scary it's really no harder than a SAM paying attention to their timer to make sure they start prepping midare at
100% agree. I wasn't as worried about the changes on paper but when I got into game and started playing the job it just feels like shit now compared to how it felt before the changes.
They always have 1 poster child job each expansion that is broken OP on day 1 and they bring up all the other jobs to be near it afterwards. This time it was PCT. I also feel like SE pays very close attention to their official forums and there were lots of complaints that VPR was too difficult to play. With PCT being mindnumbingly easy to play, you'd think they would have left VPR alone but nope, they made it easier! Might as well remove positionals too.
@@TeemoTemosson God no. If anything positionals need to go back to mattering more. I really don't understand this idea of making Melee so insanely easy. Positionals let the skill floor and ceiling be higher and that's good.
@@TeemoTemosson >wants to remove positionals >Wants DPS to earn their parse Really not much going up there huh? Like I legit don't understand how you think smaller hitboxes would be an issue for melees if they don't have to ever move from sitting directly behind the boss.
yall were complaining that it was exactly like reaper with the debuff, now that it's gone yall are complaining again?....smh. Saying you had to "maintain" the debuff for complexity's sake when the debuff got reapplied naturally during vicewinder is also a crazy take XD
Definitely not a rework, that's just making a mountain of a molehill. There is an issue of buff overcapping, which why they removed buff from monk bc mnk would buff cap. Imo, there's no different in the skill required to manage between putting a debuff on a target(s) vs putting a buff on yourself as both are braindead easy to manage. I will say that there is a flavor loss and a significant damage loss from swapping the debuff to an enemy buff for sure. That said, I think the issue is a little overblown. I say this as a lifelong monk main and professional monk hater whose job is destroyed every expansion lmao
Someone with a good take. It's like people who don't even play the job, whine the loudest. Keeping up Gnash isn't engaging. Doing mechanics is. Using Reawaken is fun. Being able to pool the ranged attacks for no uptime spots is fun. You already HAVE to watch your job gauge or hotbar to do the combos. Checking the debuff as well was just annoying.
It's the catering to the vocal minority for me xD. Square wants the player base to be better and then caters to whine bags who won't even take the time to learn the class. DRG main here, Viper was not hard in the slightest and they just made it even more braindead. It's not about them getting rid of a debuff but rather them dumbing already very simplistic ideas down because people suck at the game and won't do the due diligence to fix it. Ask any person who played viper regularly, nobody asked for this
@@pwn3ronetwothreeif it was so easy why care if they got rid of it? It sucked to apply the debuff and start your combo then the enemy goes untargetable and adds spawn and now you cant apply the debuff to them. Otherwise sure the job is pretty piss easy. Was fun to try to optimize the amount of steel fangs you could get in over dreadfangs but oh well not like the class plays any different aside from that minor optimization.
@@chosendark1 It's about making fun of people who found it difficult to keep track of a single debuff. These people would be happy with a class that has one damage button that you mash over and over again so long as you never have to pay attention. Think about how braindead easy Viper was before getting rid of Gash, and these people STILL thought it was too hard for them.
WTH, I take a small break after finishing the MSQ & they nerf my new favorite job! Why did they remove the debuff & personal buffs! Now it seems we don't need the skill change buttons anymore! Viper was the easiest job I have ever played! Now I will have to find something else to play because they took my Viper rotation!
phys range gang STAY winning mch and bard(i should play dnc but its only at 90 cause i bought the skip :3) are still good from 90 with just slightly more which honestly i prefer for saftey reasons till 8.0 when the big job changes come
I like these changes, while old viper for single target combat was fine, viper for dungeons/fates was very clunky and unpleastant to use due to this debuff reaper has done it right, reaper can use their debuff whenver they want without breaking their combo chain, viper cant, so for me its a good change, I very much like the job now
i think people are over reacting.... it plays the literal same.... id rather play a job than a timer. could they have just raised the cap to 60 sec? probably but i dont get how people complain about RPR's debuff management but like VPR's
I don't think the people complaining about VPR's management were complaining about RPRs. Don't generalize everyone like that, it just makes your argument look poor.
The job was my favorite job. It stay very fluid and nervous BUT the job was very easy before 7.05 m. The 2 minutes buff is easy to use because u have 30 sec to reawaken. The job overall difficulty was very low because the game tel you wich button you have to press. THE 2 ONLY things you had to manage was the buff they removed and use burst during raid buff if your raid have buff. Now this is a fucking push button casual class. Litteraly you dont need to learn skills just press bright button and you will do 20K dps. Im really sad. Too much casual for me..
Maintaining the debuff was not a skill before, it was muscle memory. Every 2-3 combos you press the weaker starter to reapply and then forget the button exists for a bit. The job is the same level of easy that it was before, just now the player isnt punished for needing to break away from the target. Reaper's death's design debuff is the same thing, but they can freely reapply it mid enshroud (enshroud is the exact same thing as reawaken) where viper was locked out of all NG application skills during reawaken. The changes did nothing but make a mostly dead button get used and punish the player less should forced downtime occur.
I tried VPR right after the patch in Expert roulette, and I kept forgetting to use stacking combos, before I remembered to use them to keep Gnashing up but now I guess not having the debuff timer on the enemy reminding me just makes me go I forgor lol
when I read the patch notes and realizing Noxious gash removal... like WTF? it's totally a braindead job, even more braindead than SMN which SMN still have variation on their rotation like choosing between Garuda or Ifrit or Titan. what Viper Had with the variation was with decision to reapply noxious gash or do steel fangs... all gone. I feel this decision felt really rushed, it's even in HALF Patch.
Ok, like yeah they kinda did just remove 100% of any management gamplay from the job, but uhh. Yeah i got nothing. I did like the little management i had with the decision of "should i use dreadwinder, continue my combo, or use my burst button (yk what im talking about)". It wasnt all that impactful if i fucked up and overcapped or dropped a buff like once a full moon but i still liked it. Now it gone. Sucks, But It Is What It Is. Ill still play it cause its my oc's out of game weapon. Now my cope take is that I hope they increase the number of positionals for this job to make up for those changes 😈😈😈
Yeah...no. They made the job easier to play with the removal & buffed almost every other skill to make up for the lose of damage/potency. This is a GREAT change and only moronic try-hards think otherwise.
@@G-Manfromhalflife I don't care about whether a job is "dead" or not, but I will now quit playing it. I'm gonna play something else and it feels like shet.
the video and the comments are just whining babies, yall minus well post on the forums with how crige these rants are. keeping the debuff up didnt add any skill to the job and was just a back thought amd arguing that removing killed the job is so backwatered
Have you played Viper in endgame content properly? No? Then shut up. I don't understand how so many people who only play a job casually suddenly act like they know everything about it when they clearly don't. I can literally explain to you if you want to act like a know it all, just reply and I'll explain EVERY MINUTE DETAIL about it and what it changes (even though the video you clearly did not watch already did), but if you want to stop acting like a dumbass, I'll leave it at this.
I was fully prepared and okay with opening up the patch notes and seeing "Noxious Gnash has had its timer increased to 60 seconds max and Dreadwinder had all positionals removed". That was the most obvious change that everyone was expecting and I feel a majority of the playerbase would okay with
@@bigbluepurple because it wasn't crucial, it was just a pointless mindless chore. The fact that it was just removed and skills buffed to compensate tells you that much. And honestly this is getting on the Dragoon main levels of gaslighting yourself that the bloat is good
Trust me, I get why some players are upset. Even if only from a matter of principle, the continued trend of over simplification of the game's jobs is going to eventually hit a breaking point. They say they are going to bring back complexity in 8.0, and I'm calling BS right here, right now. However, I have to push back on the job being fine as it was, because it wasn't. The main problem with the job was the venom buffs did not carry over from ST to AoE and vice versa, which penalized you when swapping from one to the other. While this was mainly an issue in dungeons, it was still a fundamental flaw with the job. The delay after using Slither was also pretty bad and it's good thing that both of these problems were fixed. They also kept the positional requirements on the Coil skills, which if anything needed to go, it was that. That being said, the removal of Noxious Gash is because of that god-forsaken 2-minute meta, but all they really had to do was increase the maximum duration to 60s and it would have solved the problem. With its removal they also removed the need to think along with it by making the potency of steel/reaving fangs equal. In short, VPR had two things to micro manage: Making sure to have double reawaken for 2-minute burst, and maintaining NG debuff during downtime while pushing DPS with Steel Fang combo string, and they removed one of the two. I won't lie, it feels like vipers lost one of their arms.
I feel you... now they are talking about a rework for BLM and it was fine back in EW. They broke it in DT and now they want to rework it, well I am willing to bet their "rework" will be get rid of the Enochian timer which is the only fail point of the class. This 100% would be a non-starter for me and I will probably be quitting the game. Their issue is they want to raise the floor and lower the ceiling of class performance because the really casual pos players want to feel "skilled" without even trying.
this wasnt a rework. lets fucking chill. and keeping a debuff on an enemy that literally didn't fall off if you had one electrode meandering around your braincell.
People did the math since the debuff was a 10% increase of your damage removing it and exchange “buffing” everything only increases your current damage by 2.5% I’m bad at math but this is a kind of a significative nerf don’t you think 😅 and personally I did like to keep up on that debuff
Considering they changed a core mechanic of the class, renamed a bunch of abilities and redid potencies for almost every ability it's definently a rework. They called removing 2 abilities and a positional from DRG a rework, this definitely outshines it. Also damn man you are a condescending prick, I'd love to see your parses with an ego that huge.
You didn't play much VPR if you think this.... Managing nox did not require one brain cell it was literally the foundation of the class. It determined when you used CDs and requires you to set it up with a long timer before you double reawaken. It was the only thing the core rotation didn't have training wheels style follow the glowy buttons for. It required extra management if downtime was there. It's removal means you can use your CDs in any order now. The only thing you need to worry about is holding for double reawaken. You do that and hit your positionals (if it's not a wall boss) and you will do 100% or your max damage. The skull ceiling is completely gone. There are zero failure states.
"Oh no, they removed the ability that doesn't take any brain power to press, why are people so upset?" All the jobs already are as easy as it gets. The fact that devs still find ways to remove those ''easy'' buttons even though they are oh so easy is exactly what makes people upset. Taking away things that don't need to be taken away is just straight up annoying. You gain nothing and lose something. 99% of the buttons in this game don't require any brain power to press. That is not the point though. By this logic if everything is so easy and meaningless, why don't we just remove 1-2-3 combos, positionals, all the dots healers have, all the simple buffs you need to upkeep and just straight up give every job a single button that you spam to the damage. Obviously Viper hasn't changed much, but you can definitely feel that it feels somewhat more shallow to play. You can literally just follow to glowy buttons now to play the job for you. Before you at least had to actively manage your dot and could play around with some simple burst optimizations like 3 reawakens under dot. All of that doesn't matter anymore, you just... press what's glowing.
My damage went up a lot with no gear changes thanks to Vipers buffs Lol. Literally beating the outskirts dummies by 20-30 seconds faster than before. It’s literally BETTER. Just hit your flanks and rears and know how to use Double Awaken properly with raid CDs and you blast. Who cares if it’s Easy. It literally brings nothing but damage. Prior version was dumb and not complex at all. Practically nothing “exciting” was changed. Refreshing Noxious was nothing special when you ended up just not pressing Dreadfang as often because Dreadwinder did enough stacking timer and then all u did was spam steel fang opener. Now the Combo openers properly alternate with equal potency making the rotation fluid and visually more pleasing. Your double reawaken on Noxious Gash required nothing special. It was almost impossible to have debuff falloff because of Dreadwinder, hence the buffs removal because it’s pointless. The class “identity” is not the debuff. It’s the stagger movement of positionals, Uncoiled fury “cartridges” for always uptime if heavy movement required, and SLITHER. Vipers biggest “identity” is how good slither is. It doesn’t get enough talk.
Bruh, no, they removed rhe whole mechanic from DRG by removing Dragon Gauge. Really wish it was just Dragon Sight, but nope). All complexity, all possibilities that mechanic gave are gone now.
So you don't know when you should bank aetherflow, pop ifrit for immobile sections, titan or garuda depending on mob density, or whom to enkindle phoenix on? You're a bad SMN arent you?
People loved the summoner changes. Except for me, I thought it was boring. Months passed, now way more people think it's boring. Huh, so why did people call me crazy?
@antonytomas1 You say this like its some kind of galaxy brain play when in reality you can figure all of this out with like an hour on the job. Like what you like man but don't pretend it's complex in the slightest
@@vabbi_1 Literally everything you said comes naturally from playing SMN except maybe using Aetherflow during Bahamut/Phoenix. Even the enkindle thing with Phoenix is often just gonna go to a tank if you really care about applying it on anyone but yourself.
Personally I don't see the problem here. DoTs/Debuffs don't add dynamism to a rotation, the job still plays the same. If you would ever lose that debuff at anytime then that means the rotation isn't the best one. The way 14 is designed is that you're not building a character, or even a toolkit, you're building an already optimized rotation. God help you if you deviate from it post ShB as that'll be a large DPS loss. This is coming from a guy who's mained DRG since all the way back in 2.x. When the job had one buff, one debuff, and three DoTs it had to keep up. 11 years later and it's lost all but Chaos Thrust but still plays exactly the same. I've been playing SE games since 2004 with FF11, and they never keep their promises ever. Whenever they say "We'll do X" expect it to never happen, be completely underwhelming, or at best, get introduced and stop seeing updates immediately. I'm still waiting for more companions other than the GC Chocobo that SE promised for 14 back in 2.X.
It's not the debuff itself but the rhythm it brought. The removal of the debuff changed the way both combos are managed. They used to be started based off the remainer of the debuff, along with Dreadfang management. Now it's just 1-1-1 and 2-2-2
At least spell the word you're using wrong correctly. Unless that debuff had put the Viper on a shorter GCD then everything else or was an OCG then maybe "rhythm" would fit. Let's be real here though, there is very little rhythm involved in this game. I find it almost insulting that people use colorful descriptors in a game where everything is already optimized to the point of robotizing its players. Your buffs would never fall if you're using that already optimized rotation. Nothing else matters but building muscle memory and a little pattern recognition. It is laughable people consider 1-2-3 and 2-3-4 is a meaningful difficulty increase over 1-1-1 and 2-2-2.
@@Durahan2I understand that feeling played in 2.x also but viper now has no room for error if any. before it was small but the level of freedom and ways you can kinda manipulate the debuff added its own flavor now the class is glowing button, press whatever whenever and your damage will be fine, the highest level of gameplay at viper is practically the same as the lowest levels with very small differences just game fundamentals and greed, the class simply plays itself more then it used now it’s a glorified auto pilot mode made to cater to anyone and everyone
@@CRXII There is no freedom. Please understand You use the optimal rotation for the biggest dps every single time. What the does "manipulate" or "flavor" even mean? It's the same as "Flow" or "Rhythm" or "Feel" ie, it means nothing. It's a complete joke. The talk about "dah glowie buttons" is asinine. If you're even looking at your hotbars then you are bad at the game, simple as. Now onto the "levels of gameplay". Dude the game is all about learning the bestest rotation for your class and doing it enough to do it with numbed hands. Are peoples' brains so calcified and goonsick that muscle memory has become hard skill to master now? Also for "no room for error". 2.X DRG was all about getting big nasty Full Thrust crits off. You fuck up your rotation? Did heavy thrust or disembowel drop? Did the boss go into an invuln phase? You're starting over from the beginning. Enjoy dropping the bottom of the DPS loser. The less said about MNK and greased stacks the better. Last thing. Getting content to "Auto-pilot" is the whole point of the game. The last thing a 14 player should be doing is thinking about what to do next, how to react to mechanics, or what's the next esoteric keybind for your biblically long rotation. As a consequence Viper is as "auto-pilot" as every other melee dps.
@@Durahan2 I never struggled with the rotation but it was just the slight margin of error and even in downtime you know to reapply ASAP. That being said rotation can very from fights but try to maintain the general basis of the most optimized path to power. As someone who tries to play only viper I’m also talking about at all levels from 50 and even at 100 so it was just something else to have at lower levels to mess around with. I’m on the it is what it is wave as I know how the game goes. I just thought it was a little neat, yes it wasn’t perfect and had its problems but it could’ve been changed a little differently imo.
Viper didnt have any thought process behind it before the change either. The debuff was maintained essentially automatically just by doing your rotation, playing it after the patch I can say literally nothing has changed with how the job feels to play.
@@popelipo6281 Nothing changed _for you._ I also don't think you understand the meaning of the word cope. Also why do you care so much about what others think? What's it to you?
@MrCarlWax this was hardly an argument, though I should have phrased it less aggressively. I just latched onto this when I was grumpy after having been woken up by my sister's kids. As an actual point it's odd to me that he and I seem to have polar opposite opinions of Noxious Gnash as a mechanic as it barely even registered to me as a mechanic to worry about
@@kimaru135 If you didn't think about it then there's no reason to be against people who want it back. Not necessarily saying you are, just saying there's no reason to be.
Applying a dot slows the job down, if reaper didn't have deaths design it would just keeping upping its ceiling. Viper offers no buff meaning it needs to keep increasing ceiling. It also does not have as a high as burst as other jobs. It simply helps it continue to GO without slowing it down, overall this was a good change this is a hot take tbh. The moment you apply a dot that does hardly any dps that's a loss every single press forcing viper to cascade down to 2200s.
Imma keep it a buck: The removal of the debuff doesn't do much of anything. Yeah, having to manage a debuff was nice, but the reason Viper is so braindead is because your hotbar is just barren compared to other jobs. It was really the only thing you had to manage, realistically. Viper has no temporary/conditional buffs, no utility, no defensive, no real having to worry about buff alignment outside of Double/Triple Reawaken and a super flexible Rotation that doesn't really care for downtime, deaths and such. Samurai for instance: you get 1-2 GCDs of downtime (specially now) and now you have to work overtime to get all your stuff aligned with your Bana and burst again. Viper has some management with ability charges and I think that's quite fun side of it, but it's very one note and simple. Just give the job more conditional and interesting buttons and I think we're back.
@@SirUmnei I mean I see what you want with conditionals and I would be ok with small ones. Death Rattle with a slight poison could be cool but Slither is their defensive. It would be interesting if during Reawaken you took slightly less damage, maybe 5%? Or 10%? But man Reawaken Bloodbath is straight up a full heal from 0 in like two global lol
What's actually fun about managing the debuff? There's no satisfaction or visual feedback or anything for doing it. It's just tedium. Reaper at least got rewarded for enemies dying under the debuff where VPR got punished if mobs died too fast after applying debuff
People like different things for different reasons. I loved noxious gash. Now that it's gone, I've no reason to play Viper. And if the thing that dies isn't a boss, who cares? And if it's a boss... Also who cares but for a different reason?
@@Dharengo Honestly I'm surprised you enjoy monk if you don't enjoy viper. Viper feels closer to endwalker monk than monk does now with the two buffs to manage and unba bunga press every button burst window
@@SmoothAsFelt I mean how does a human being explain personal preference? Also what buffs to manage? I just press the shiny button. Those two buffs are not a mechanic, unlike for SAM. Current monk has a rotation I jive with. I lived with Viper when it still had NG, not anymore. Going back to monk just makes sense to me.
I played and leveled Viper lv100 before these changes, but I am happy with every changes that was made it the recent patch. Viper debuff really wasn't that big of a deal to manage I feel, heck I barely pressed that red button to put the debuff since the 30sec other button applied it (I cannot recall the skills name sorry...) In EX or raid I can see it being less interesting, since its all single target anyway, but for dungeons mobs, as exemple of multiple ennemies, reapplying gnashing gnash was just unfun or "oh im mid combo, can't break it, but the debuff..", Per say I had to aoe to break my rotation so I could restart on my 1 of combo was weirdly unatural. also maybe cause I haven't played enough of it, due to Oroboros being same button as Awoken and the animation of the hit is kinda delay, I sometimes would dobule press my burst without wanting to, but can't reaply the debuff while in it so.. They could of made so the debuff was given differently, but then would it just be like Reaper? Now it feels too much like Samurai? but faster? I see the removal of the debuff more like a quality of life and I enjoy the job having a rotation now. Yes its just clicking the glowy, but it'll make leveling Viper and understanding the job a lot better. I sure hated leveling it, took me a while to understand, I think it'll be better now. I think the removal is also point that Viper should work in ALL content. Apparently in TEA viper was doing atrocious, I'd assume now its better since they don't have to slowy reapply a debuff on jag doll, Living hnad/liquid, Alexander after downtime and PA after downtimes. im rambling again I know... Short: Me like Viper now, a good change of pace for other melee, I shall still break my combos/rotation cause I'm no melee player... I dont miss Kaiten and uh ye Sorry if I sounds like a complete contrarian, people often tell me... I guess I just enjoy things that might be more of hotakes for other
@@eldenlion5850 "It's totally happening, all you need to do is look." Isn't falsifiable. If someone says they can't see it, you can just say they didn't look hard enough.
Not only do we no longer have to balance a debuff that forces us into a weaker rotation, them spreading it out across the kit gave us a 2.5% DPS increase. the Viper changes are objectively a good thing. I see very little people actually *liking* debuff management, most people I see on a variety of different forums hate it
Oh the horror of having a fail point built into a class, something that skilled players will work to min/max during fights and casual pieces of S*** will cry about.
@@Spartan1312 if you genuinely think keeping a debuff timer rolling is in ANY WAY skillful gameplay I highly demand you go and touch any other game ever made. Oh how skilled you are! you press 1 new button every 6 GCDs to refresh the timer then it's back to the same rotation! you're so skilled! THAT is skillful to you?? and you're calling other players casual? please give me a fucking break. go clear an ultimate or a savage, then you can come sit at the adult table and talk about skillful gameplay
@@CreateAmazment No... doing that while focusing on mechanics at the same time takes skill. Its the split focus of both while requiring dps to maintain a high level of play to meet a enrage timer that requires skill. Either one by itself takes almost no skill. Your class has a auto rotating rotation, you can not even fat finger it to break its rotation... its legit brainless, you just hit the glowing button for the win and anyone who thinks otherwise is lying or super causal trying to feel better about a otherwise automated class.
@ShiyaNuu then when were you refreshing gnash? Did you have some weird combo not a single other player ever used? Cuz the only time I ever pressed the second combo start was to refresh gnash, which typically happened after 2 combos, which is 6 gcds.
Bro really made an 11min video defending a a useless debuff that literally did nothing to the gameplay but expose bad vipers (which were the vast majority of viper players), good, remove death's design next.
![[FFXIV] Mentor Breakdown](/img/n.gif)
Its pretty "the same" in terms of rotation, but its just 111, 222, use you vicewinder combo whenever you want, have double/triple reawaken set up by the 2 minute mark. I dont know how I exactly to feel about it, but it looks more like a "duelist/hunter" vibe than a "rattling poisonous viper" kind of vibe now. I mean it is what is I guess since that seems to be only acceptable behavior these days.
Drk players: First time?
Dragoon Player here and it definitely isn't my first time . RIP "ring of thorns" this was a massive blow to the early dragoon experience vs groups of mobs . The skill we got as a replacement was quite pathetic in comparison .
Viper is essentially the summoner of melee dps. Literally just press the glowing button.
It seems as if many classes this expac either got heavily simplified/lost parts of their identity, or got barely any changes at all, for the better or worse
Viper not having a DoT with all the poison/snake themed moves was already ridiculous. Removing its silly version of Death's Design is insane. Why even call it a Viper at this point? You might as well just call it Twinblade or something. The snake motif was already stretched pretty thin and now just doesn't even fit the gameplay at all.
Duelist wouldve been the name technically but it needed to be cool lol
Slither is the real identity. If they made it like dancer dash and/or target it would have been amazing though probably a little too strong lol. Vipers can cheat uptime on so much this tier just with slithers ally dash. Need partners? Focus partner Slither. Need light party? Slither on over. Feels very snakelike to me.
I do think on Death Rattle a stacking with cap duration poison would have been cool
We should have gotten corsair instead. Just reverse red mage melee job with a ranged burst window of unloading flintlocks and dynamite
@@SmoothAsFeltorange self defensive/heal mandatory
The Job named Viper is based on the great serpent of Tural
Not your usual real life venomous snake
This was one of those youtube recommendations from a channel I've never heard of, but I decided to take a peek at this video.
The immediate 30XX music tells me that you have good taste.
I felt vpr was my favorite job. It was simple but felt really busy. Now vpr feels boring. Debuff removal means combo just boils down to 111 222 and you just press dreadwinder when you have it. Feels like all the small decision making it had is gone
Before it was just 111>122>112>121 etc and never press 2XX unless you physically need to. If anything post change its more straight forward to play, but complex to actually function and perform. There was no decisionmaking before, and none now. Just like every single job in the game, you have 1 skill path you will always use, and never deviate from, unless you die or mess up.
but isnt the debuff just an increased danage? lol doesnt seem like they changed much just increased the timers to you buffs and increase the damage to the debuffed damage fully so idk why people are mad
The reason is caus euou had to plan your rotation, you cant just throw out whatever, if you overcap your debuff you lose out on damage, if your debiff ran out mid double reawaken, losing damage,
Damn Sidewinder? Didn't know they were giving Viper some Bard abilities, that's pretty cracked.
also noxious lash
I hate this change for the following reasons:
1. They gave us no notice they'd remove Noxious Gnash and force you to start only following the glowing buttons making it more braindead autopilot, catering to the lowest common denominator of people who aren't willing to learn the job properly,
2. Removing NG disconnects Dreadwinder- no, sorry, Vicewinder (eugh) and Vicepit from the rest of the kit and even to some degree Reawaken,
3. Making it an endless combo changes it from 2 buttons to watch to now constantly watching the hotbar to make sure you don't misinput also getting you trapped in a neverending combo that also is easy to lose your place thanks to transforming buttons or shifting your mental focus elsewhere like Vicewinder or a boss encounter,
4. There was expression on when and how you apply NG, like do you double up at the start or do you continue alternating? Do you start Reawaken or go for an Uncoiled Fury depending on your time? Did you set yourself up in advance with enough time and/or a Dreadwinder? That kinda stuff.
5. It wasn't replaced with anything, it was just taken out and given a band-aid solution to keep the general rotation going without thinking about the ripple effect it would have,
6. Noxious Gnash served as a better visual queue for whether you needed to start on 1 or not, and then you got to choose when to start on 2. That was fully in your control before, now it's not, which leads to my last point:
7. A lot of the "free-flow" identity of the job got destroyed and replaced with something spammier and more monotonous and clunky to play. There was more emphasis on setup and payoff (properly managing NG timing) that required some actual skill that paid off in heavier-hitting Reawakens and Uncoiled Fury's if you knew what you were doing. The nuance was in the fine details and how controlling your NG buff and timing let you control that freeflow of your own accord, but now it's literally only follow-the-buttons. Dumbed down yet smaller margin of error. It sucks.
Change it back to 7.01.
@M1SF0RTUNE Reading this comment is just evidence that you haven't learned how to read the "useless" Vipersight Gauge if you really believe this change forces you to stare at your hotbar. Vipersight allows me to keep my combo flowing without even having to check which combo step I'm on.
Also Vicewinder isn't disconnected from your rotation -- it gives you Rattling Coils. If you think that's "disconnected" then you likely aren't using Uncoiled Fury at all or at least aren't worried about overcapping, in which case they removed Noxious Gnash specifically for those players.
Overcapping Rattling Coils is basically impossible now that you don't have to spend them between upkeeping Noxious Gnash -- which was already basically impossible to drop to begin with if you were just rotating your 1's properly and using your one charge of Dreadwinder outside of buffs on cooldown.
@@ezrasilver9819I see the vipersight argument but what he says really focuses on the monotonous auto pilot even without the gauge the classes was simple, but it boils down to now the class doesn’t have a real error other than overcap which is in every job in the game pretty much, and no Nash was unique but it was how it was implemented simpler then death’s design awkwardness but allowed for freedom and reward for uptime and proper setup now the class plays itself and doesn’t really have any real reward or really any real optimization other then uptime and greed which again is on every other melee, I understand we don’t all try to push for high levels of optimization and want an easy playing fast class but not every class has to be changed to cater for everyone slight skill issue if you failed to upkeep Nash, now it’s we can all do good damage without trying
@CRXII This I feel is a better argument than what the original commenter was driving at. I don't necessarily disagree with you, and I do empathize with the people that are missing the loss of Noxious Gnash, but in my opinion it just was not as core to the job's identity to me as it was for others. Ever since Viper was first teased, I understood the "challenge" of Viper was to be placed in properly maintaining your rotation while cycling through multiple combo paths simultaneously -- and this change shifts the gameplay more in line with that direction.
Feel free to disagree with me; I took issue with the OP's reasoning, not their opinion.
Tracking the debuff timer of NG was not skill, sorry to break it to you. It was muscle memory. You just used the (weaker potency) combo starter to upkeep it every 2-3 full combos. That is not a skill, nor was it a core identity of the job. If you have to watch your hotbar constantly with the new changes there is something else wrong. You literally just alternate the combo starter. NG added nothing to the job, and unlike upkeeping deaths design on reaper, NG was punishing should downtime or a mistake cause it to fall off mid reawaken. Reaper can freely put DD back on the target during enshroud (enshroud is literally just reawaken) but viper is locked out of every form of NG application while reawaken is up. The viper changes make the job flow better. Did I have trouble keeping the debuff on? No, but I still see this as a very positive change to the job.
@@monkymann5834 Yes, I find the original commenter's complaints confusing as, if anything, I've found that the change now forces me to rotate my combo routes MORE frequently than it did before...
How can the rotation be autopilot yet at the same time require you to stare at your hotbar to execute properly? Doesn't make any sense.
Hey I wanted to ask, when to use Vicewinder? I have no idea when to go into twinblade combos.
Post patch, literally whenever you want such that you don't overcap. Outside of tincture phase, Press it to gain a rattling coil for downtime and use rattling coils during downtime or before overcapping. You won't save twinblade combo for any burst phases since you'll be awakening, and should simply prioritize using it to re-buff yourself during downtime or death.
I have yet to determine if they are good or bad yet. My viper is only 81 at the moment.
Eh, I don't miss it. I don't miss them taking away Demolish DoT on Monk, either. Hell, I wouldn't mind them taking away Death's Design and just buffing potency and Soul Gauge generation to compensate.
honestly I was really upset seeing the changes this patch. Leading up to it my only complaint with viper was actually that I didn't like the positionals on the Dreadwinder combo follow-up since there is a mandatory double weave (I'm australian playing on NA so the latency makes double weaving a little bit iffy even with the bigger windows on Hunter's Coil and Swiftkin's Coil). So for me the only thing I wanted was a removal of the positional requirements on Hunter's Coil and Swiftkin's coil because I felt like the class was already busy enough as it is to not need the 2 extra positionals that those provided. I would have preferred if they'd increased the amount of time given to noxious nash's maximum so that it was a 60 second max but I was actually okay with the 20 second timer because it gave the job a nice flow.
These changes legitimately made me not want to play the class anymore. I'm very tempted to see what the forums are saying about it because I feel like they severely missed the mark on this one. They saw people complaining that the job was too busy and too complicated but imho the only thing that made me every not like playing the class was the positionals attached to Hunter's Coil and Swiftkin's Coil. Whenever an enemy had no positionals the amount of brain power I had to use substantially decreased and I could just focus on the really beautiful rotation the class had. I hope they walk back the changes or maybe just take out the damage and make the debuff a DoT instead
I did have a hard time at the very start of unlocking Viper but that was more the game not having a lot of clarity in what buttons transform into what. Feel like the game needs a proper flow chart like they have on the job guide itself in the in-game job menu. That aside, I really enjoyed the management involved in keeping Noxious Gnash going while fitting in Reawakens. They didn't need to go this far in simplifying the job while also making it deal more damage, give that to the players that want added difficulty in their rotations, that debuff wasn't hard to manage in most situations.
Biggest head scratcher of the day. What is this random ass INSIDE THE MONTH job rework?
The job was fine! So fine. Super easy. Keep up your debuff and push your shiny buttons. Hit the double Awaken and go goblin mode.
Sure, leave Picto the way it is and kick SAM in the shins, whatever, but why in the WORLD would they make these sweeping changes?
Who were these people complaining that job was too hard? I have a great match three game I can recommend for them.
Instead of outright removing the debuff timer, they should add a DoT. Fits the Viper theme.
I personally hated the debuff as it was constantly something I had to reapply, as it only added 20 seconds on a cap of 40. I would have preferred they just made it a solid 60 seconds, every time you reapply adding 30 seconds, that way you got more uptime on the first combo that did more damage and we keep a debuff/venom theme. Adding a DoT on top of all of this would be even better, for more complexity.
Noxious Gnash debuff timer management was the only fun thing about this class to me, and now that it's gone, it's basically just Reaper lite without the utility
Reaper? The buffs more like Sam, no?
@@XionAvalonArcadia buff like sam, burst like reaper
@@clooebooie Gotcha. I was confused for a second.
Then go play reaper with the one button debuff upkeep timer and I'll keep playing my class where I press button to keep my add brain happy
@@kimaru135 nah I'll stick 2 dragoon, thanks. Have fun playing babies first Melee DPS
I was surprised by how many keybinds I have open on my viper compared to all the other jobs I play. I thought they would’ve had more moves
I’m sad I never got the chance to experience any combat with Viper before the changes. I was looking forward to having to manage the debuff, but I unlocked the class just before the maintenance and then hopped off the game.
Viper is disappointing yet i find myself playing it alot...
Then again i don't really expect Squenix to consider Complexity in a Jobs general design, infact I'd go as far to say that they have a Phobia of Complexity sometimes, because Even babies need to be able to play every class in the game without exception
Personally I don't care if a job is easy to play or not. I will play Viper regardless for this tier. But I am extremely surprised that they make it THIS easy. I logged in to raid with my static, not realizing that the job had changed. So I finished raiding and went to see what my optimal rotation would be, andddd I was already doing it!? Just pressing the glowing buttons. LOL
Thats still how the job played prior to the change. Instead of muscle memory pressing the (at the time) weaker combo starter you only ever pressed it every 2-3 combos. Now you alternate. The job is the exact same level of easy that it was before and the rotation is basically no different.
It’s so funny because I was contemplating using viper or Sam for the raid tier but I ended up staying with bard and got most of my gear before the patch and they changed both of those jobs. I do feel for you though man sorry. Hopefully they bring back the debuff.
@@TheChozenOneTV hey even tho those samurai changes looked like nerfs it’s actually a pretty nice buff. You can do tsubame gaeshi after every single midare now without a cooldown. Rip viper tho 😭
@@bigbluepurple word? I think I might pick up Sam as a side job then but bard definitely is gonna help me get into those ques. Especially with viper being EVEN EASIER lmao.
@@bigbluepurple RIP VIPER???? you're actually trolling. there is no way you genuinely think viper is dead from this change. it is the 3rd highest DPS on average across the entire savage tier rn and it's beating SAM in every single one
I was having fun with Viper, figuring out that I could do build up by debuff and then skip it ocasionally with a harder hitting combo was a interesting development.
But man these changes just arnt it.
If I want to play a Job where is press 1 combo then do the other combo, ill play Dragoon because atleast then I have skills to be weaving and more to consider in each burst phase.
God Viper was fine just why did square think this would go over well... hopefully they will change course but man it doesnt feel likely.
I play monk and I like pressing the monkey button 🙂
rework Viper right at savage release XD
you're saying this like the job is now suddenly wildly different to play lmao. the opener and rotation are the exact same
@@CreateAmazmentI think it comes down to managing your dps output smoothly while also managing the savage mechanic?
@@setsuna5919 No, it's exactly the same. People are whining "oh no they removed my debuff" when the debuff was pointless to begin with. If you were doing your rotation you had that up at all times. It was a debuff that required no upkeep or paying attention to. This is not a Samurai Kaiten situation like the community is crying about. It's literally a buff too, no more Reaving Maw on AoE wall to wall pulls when it's not your combo. Because a lot of dungeons have walls off preventing you from pulling straight to or in the boss.
If I were to go extremist about this, the ones complaining about this removal are the ones ruining FF14 as we speak. Pictomancer & Viper are both jobs that have no skill ceiling whatsoever. If you are upset about the removal of this mechanic because you think it's engaging. You are the reason why Endwalker & Shadowbringers were toddler tier in difficulty. Now if you were somebody who didn't like the roleplay of the job, the fact that there's nothing 'viper-like' about it other than this debuff. That's understandable. But you have to understand it was a useless mechanic to begin with. We finally get an expansion that appeals to midcore players and the community bitches, i'm not standing for it.
Hardest part of viper is mashing 1 ( ogcd ) 2 ( ogcd ) 3 ( ogcd ) 4 ( ogcd ) Ouroboros now , Im still playing the job but I really miss NG
I think them removing the debuff sucks cause it fits the theme, it requires managing the timer with your combo and just overall gives more utility to the team. Sadly I don’t think it’s ’holy shit the jobs is shit now’ like I’ve read here. They made it a little simpler where it didn’t need it and it sucks but if they wanted a very simple melee dps people don’t need super intensive guides to understand then that’s what they want.
Summoner is easier. I do like how you say it doesn't matter what damage you do in dungeons but your upset about the changes 🤣
that's such a stupid change. the job was already simple, learn a few positions, that's it.
now you have even less input in what to do.
they could replaced everything for a single skill that you press, and it will just execute the next combo automatically as gcd ends
--
I don;t follow job changes closely, so I was very confused when I played viper today and the buff wasn't there.
edit:
some context: I'm your filty will-do-everything-solo-if-I-coud casual player.
I mained BRD until post EW, changed now to GNB.
I've picked up Viper to complete all the role quests, alongside Picto and Astro, since every other job I have is around at lvl 70.
But when I started DT role quest, I liked it enough that I want to complete them all as soon as possible.
I tried viper, it was fun, now I don't know, it is, disappointing, at best; could just be removed the game and no one would miss this current state, at worst.
I am happy about the changes. Now they need to take it off of Reaper.
Im the most casual player you will ever met and I got bored of Viper due to simplicity. I dont think I’ll play it again after this change.
Dragoon lost not only Dragon Sight FYI. Also the 2 Charge Jump. Thats 2 Skills entirely removed from Dragoon not just 1. :|
I'm not a Viper Player, so can't say much about it. Just wanted to make the Comment about Dragoon abit clearer :)
I read the notes, i didn't have to relearn my rotation, so i dont care.
Same lol
Well some of the player base complain like they always do, so this happened
A lot of people have been saying this doesn't really change anything... but please consider!
It was imperative to re-up NG just before beginning re-awakening burst, and also to save dual-blade combo near burst phases to safely re-apply NG for the following coils near the end of buff phase. Removing the debuff means you no longer have to prep or save resources before your burst phase, which was akin to saving job gauge on SAM or holding wyrmwind thrust when buffs were coming back up.
Having a button to press and knowing you need to save it is extra job complexity. Needing to press a button before a critical timing in rotation is extra job complexity, and the removal of noxious gnash has removed this on all fronts. The job was always "press glowing button if you dont care to pay more attention" but now its "just press glowing button lol"
Completely agree. Anyone saying “it didn’t matter” or “it doesn’t change anything” fundamentally did not understand the job at all.
@bigbluepurple it doesn't changes much would be more accurate. You're still doing the same thing just more simpler now.
@@Ahappysandwich The unfortunate truth is that this is simply false, and I can understand if that doesn't seem to be the case at face value, since at face value it might not look like a big deal and wouldn't be for one of bards dots or even maybe Reaper's death's design. Your gameplan has gone from using your special buttons to upkeep your buffs and debuffs and work around short timers to just pressing buttons to keep them from overcapping CD or stacks. Unlike other Melees even such as Samurai, you don't even need to save Rattling Coils or dreadwinders, as your 22-second double awakening phase will go longer than most raid buffs which last only 20 seconds.
You no longer need to save resources, you no longer need to upkeep a debuff, your GCD rotation is now a 2 GCD dragonkick-bootshine with a static finisher at the end.
I can understand people preffering an easier "summoner" like class even though I vehemently believed that melee didn't need another one (Dragoon fills this archetype for melee), but to say that not much is changed is simply a true misunderstanding of how the job worked then vs now.
@@TEKn011 Again, it doesn't change much. The job itself plays the same fundamental . Be honest with yourself. Tell me, if you got a player and they read what you just said, do you honestly think they would find that fun? And really, FF14 doesn't have enraged bosses or fights that are really punishing for the most part, where being the most optimal isnt even required. Most of what you just said is all about playing around with optimization. Which is really only applicable in Ultimate's and Savage, where there's less leeway and enrage timers.
Viper still plays the same fundamentally; yes, obviously there are some changes, but the job itself plays relatively the same. you are still pressing the same buttons and playing the same way, nothing that you mentioned changes the job fundamentally just that its easier to manage. Having DRK use Dark arts to alter the effects of certain skills to it just being a passive darkside damage increase was a fundamental change
If you like optimizing your jobs to the max, that's fine. I also know some enjoy that, but I like how Viper plays and how it is.
Let people enjoy that not everything has to be you need to save your resources every 120s so that the DNC and AST use their damage buffs that last 20s while the DRG pops his direct crit buffs and needs to align with everything to prevent skill drifting
@@Ahappysandwich Again, it changes a lot at a specifically fundamental level, and I'll break it down for you, because I know that at face value it may not seem like that.
It can be very hard to conceptualize what I'm saying versus how they translate into actual button presses in game, and while it sounds scary it's really no harder than a SAM paying attention to their timer to make sure they start prepping midare at
100% agree. I wasn't as worried about the changes on paper but when I got into game and started playing the job it just feels like shit now compared to how it felt before the changes.
who are these changes for? Like they said they would address their business if ircc but then, this change changes nothing to address that?
Is the feedback in the room with us right now?
My damage per fight when up but at what cost…
They always have 1 poster child job each expansion that is broken OP on day 1 and they bring up all the other jobs to be near it afterwards. This time it was PCT. I also feel like SE pays very close attention to their official forums and there were lots of complaints that VPR was too difficult to play. With PCT being mindnumbingly easy to play, you'd think they would have left VPR alone but nope, they made it easier! Might as well remove positionals too.
Positionals need to go.
As soon as I heard pct got the collector edition weapon and vpr didn't, I knew pct was the love child.
@@TeemoTemosson God no. If anything positionals need to go back to mattering more. I really don't understand this idea of making Melee so insanely easy. Positionals let the skill floor and ceiling be higher and that's good.
@@HowlingDoom Remove positionals and stop giving small bosses arena wide hitboxes. Make DPS earn their parses.
@@TeemoTemosson >wants to remove positionals
>Wants DPS to earn their parse
Really not much going up there huh?
Like I legit don't understand how you think smaller hitboxes would be an issue for melees if they don't have to ever move from sitting directly behind the boss.
yall were complaining that it was exactly like reaper with the debuff, now that it's gone yall are complaining again?....smh. Saying you had to "maintain" the debuff for complexity's sake when the debuff got reapplied naturally during vicewinder is also a crazy take XD
Definitely not a rework, that's just making a mountain of a molehill. There is an issue of buff overcapping, which why they removed buff from monk bc mnk would buff cap. Imo, there's no different in the skill required to manage between putting a debuff on a target(s) vs putting a buff on yourself as both are braindead easy to manage. I will say that there is a flavor loss and a significant damage loss from swapping the debuff to an enemy buff for sure. That said, I think the issue is a little overblown. I say this as a lifelong monk main and professional monk hater whose job is destroyed every expansion lmao
The debuff was a chore to maintain, just as it is on Reaper. Getting rid of Noxious Gash isn't bad.
Someone with a good take. It's like people who don't even play the job, whine the loudest. Keeping up Gnash isn't engaging. Doing mechanics is. Using Reawaken is fun. Being able to pool the ranged attacks for no uptime spots is fun.
You already HAVE to watch your job gauge or hotbar to do the combos. Checking the debuff as well was just annoying.
It's the catering to the vocal minority for me xD. Square wants the player base to be better and then caters to whine bags who won't even take the time to learn the class. DRG main here, Viper was not hard in the slightest and they just made it even more braindead. It's not about them getting rid of a debuff but rather them dumbing already very simplistic ideas down because people suck at the game and won't do the due diligence to fix it. Ask any person who played viper regularly, nobody asked for this
"IT WAS SUCH A CHORE TO PRESS A BUTTON EVERY 20 SECONDS!!!! SAVE ME WUK LAMAT AIEEEEEEE"
@@pwn3ronetwothreeif it was so easy why care if they got rid of it? It sucked to apply the debuff and start your combo then the enemy goes untargetable and adds spawn and now you cant apply the debuff to them.
Otherwise sure the job is pretty piss easy. Was fun to try to optimize the amount of steel fangs you could get in over dreadfangs but oh well not like the class plays any different aside from that minor optimization.
@@chosendark1 It's about making fun of people who found it difficult to keep track of a single debuff. These people would be happy with a class that has one damage button that you mash over and over again so long as you never have to pay attention.
Think about how braindead easy Viper was before getting rid of Gash, and these people STILL thought it was too hard for them.
WTH, I take a small break after finishing the MSQ & they nerf my new favorite job! Why did they remove the debuff & personal buffs! Now it seems we don't need the skill change buttons anymore! Viper was the easiest job I have ever played! Now I will have to find something else to play because they took my Viper rotation!
??? The personal buffs are still there.. they just removed the debuff.. that is all. The rotation is exactly the same? Read some shit before whining
Sword monk isn't fun anymore. Going back to fist monk. At least it has an unpredictable OGCD that's fun to press.
phys range gang STAY winning mch and bard(i should play dnc but its only at 90 cause i bought the skip :3) are still good from 90 with just slightly more which honestly i prefer for saftey reasons till 8.0 when the big job changes come
Thought vipers had venom? Not in my final fantasy. 💀
I like these changes, while old viper for single target combat was fine, viper for dungeons/fates was very clunky and unpleastant to use due to this debuff
reaper has done it right, reaper can use their debuff whenver they want without breaking their combo chain, viper cant, so for me its a good change, I very much like the job now
Viper is in the extremely boring bench, along with Summoner.
i think people are over reacting.... it plays the literal same.... id rather play a job than a timer. could they have just raised the cap to 60 sec? probably but i dont get how people complain about RPR's debuff management but like VPR's
Finally someone here with some common sense
I don't think the people complaining about VPR's management were complaining about RPRs. Don't generalize everyone like that, it just makes your argument look poor.
The job was my favorite job. It stay very fluid and nervous BUT the job was very easy before 7.05 m. The 2 minutes buff is easy to use because u have 30 sec to reawaken. The job overall difficulty was very low because the game tel you wich button you have to press. THE 2 ONLY things you had to manage was the buff they removed and use burst during raid buff if your raid have buff.
Now this is a fucking push button casual class. Litteraly you dont need to learn skills just press bright button and you will do 20K dps. Im really sad. Too much casual for me..
Maintaining the debuff was not a skill before, it was muscle memory. Every 2-3 combos you press the weaker starter to reapply and then forget the button exists for a bit. The job is the same level of easy that it was before, just now the player isnt punished for needing to break away from the target. Reaper's death's design debuff is the same thing, but they can freely reapply it mid enshroud (enshroud is the exact same thing as reawaken) where viper was locked out of all NG application skills during reawaken. The changes did nothing but make a mostly dead button get used and punish the player less should forced downtime occur.
They just removed a debuff that doesn’t take skill to apply. I really don’t understand why people are upset.
Drama queens
People like things. The thing they liked is gone.
How is it not skill dependant? U need to keep track of buff timer and apply it accordingly, its additional layer of difficulty
By this logic they should just remove every button from the game, since everything doesn't take skill to apply.
@@lapisaconite3120 maybe by adding unique job mechanic instead of a stupid buff timer, ninja and monk are some great examples of that
I tried VPR right after the patch in Expert roulette, and I kept forgetting to use stacking combos, before I remembered to use them to keep Gnashing up but now I guess not having the debuff timer on the enemy reminding me just makes me go I forgor lol
The changes are good the debuff was easy anyway
1:29 AMOGUS
Squeenix will continue to appeal to the whiners on the forums who don't do anything other than dungeons and trials. Color me surprised
when I read the patch notes and realizing Noxious gash removal... like WTF? it's totally a braindead job, even more braindead than SMN which SMN still have variation on their rotation like choosing between Garuda or Ifrit or Titan. what Viper Had with the variation was with decision to reapply noxious gash or do steel fangs... all gone. I feel this decision felt really rushed, it's even in HALF Patch.
I like the changes. The debuff was more of a hassle than a boon.
Agreed it didn't add anything to the class gameplay wise
God forbid a class has a fail point that can cause you to drop damage... oh the horror.
@@kimaru135he literally explained how it adds to making good decisions for optimal damage. Are you deaf on purpose
@@Marpfiehe spoke nothing but hot air
Ok, like yeah they kinda did just remove 100% of any management gamplay from the job,
but uhh.
Yeah i got nothing. I did like the little management i had with the decision of "should i use dreadwinder, continue my combo, or use my burst button (yk what im talking about)". It wasnt all that impactful if i fucked up and overcapped or dropped a buff like once a full moon but i still liked it.
Now it gone.
Sucks, But It Is What It Is.
Ill still play it cause its my oc's out of game weapon.
Now my cope take is that I hope they increase the number of positionals for this job to make up for those changes 😈😈😈
Yeah...no. They made the job easier to play with the removal & buffed almost every other skill to make up for the lose of damage/potency. This is a GREAT change and only moronic try-hards think otherwise.
i mean you're lobotomized so i see why you'd like stupid dum dum changes
When I read the patch notes yesterday morning I was so disheartened. Viper is the first Dawntrail job to get a Shadowbringers rework.
All the dps are boring. Jobs and combat have been completely stripped down over the years. It’s all style, no substance at this point.
the snake has lost its fanga it seems XD
yeah this job sucks now :)
Keeping up debuffs just like Reaper is not a fun game mechanic.
I like it.
Oh jeah the Job is dead xD, poor vipers.
Nah it ain't, yall ff fans are being dramatic
@@G-Manfromhalflife I don't care about whether a job is "dead" or not, but I will now quit playing it. I'm gonna play something else and it feels like shet.
@@G-Manfromhalflife exactly so annoying and endless complaints.
@@Dharengo whiny baby man
Bros such a doomer
It's not that big of a deal...
Thank you everyone being so dramatic
the video and the comments are just whining babies, yall minus well post on the forums with how crige these rants are. keeping the debuff up didnt add any skill to the job and was just a back thought amd arguing that removing killed the job is so backwatered
Have you played Viper in endgame content properly? No? Then shut up. I don't understand how so many people who only play a job casually suddenly act like they know everything about it when they clearly don't. I can literally explain to you if you want to act like a know it all, just reply and I'll explain EVERY MINUTE DETAIL about it and what it changes (even though the video you clearly did not watch already did), but if you want to stop acting like a dumbass, I'll leave it at this.
I was fully prepared and okay with opening up the patch notes and seeing "Noxious Gnash has had its timer increased to 60 seconds max and Dreadwinder had all positionals removed". That was the most obvious change that everyone was expecting and I feel a majority of the playerbase would okay with
Yeah this is pretty much exactly what I expected as well. Really confused why they chose to completely remove such a crucial aspect of the job.
@@bigbluepurpleI don't get why so many think it's crucial to the job. It had nothing to do with what I liked about playing viper
@@bigbluepurple because it wasn't crucial, it was just a pointless mindless chore. The fact that it was just removed and skills buffed to compensate tells you that much. And honestly this is getting on the Dragoon main levels of gaslighting yourself that the bloat is good
@@kimaru135 Because it was the ONLY fail point of the rotation... If a class does not have a fail point, they are automated and braindead.
I thought them removing positionals would the one thing people did NOT want to happen? Sheesh people can't be happy with anything.
"No longer any thinking in your rotation" There wasn't any thinking in the rotation to begin with what are you talking about?
Managing the debuff was not interesting so this change is honestly not bad. I do wish the class had something else to manage instead though
Trust me, I get why some players are upset. Even if only from a matter of principle, the continued trend of over simplification of the game's jobs is going to eventually hit a breaking point. They say they are going to bring back complexity in 8.0, and I'm calling BS right here, right now.
However, I have to push back on the job being fine as it was, because it wasn't. The main problem with the job was the venom buffs did not carry over from ST to AoE and vice versa, which penalized you when swapping from one to the other. While this was mainly an issue in dungeons, it was still a fundamental flaw with the job. The delay after using Slither was also pretty bad and it's good thing that both of these problems were fixed. They also kept the positional requirements on the Coil skills, which if anything needed to go, it was that.
That being said, the removal of Noxious Gash is because of that god-forsaken 2-minute meta, but all they really had to do was increase the maximum duration to 60s and it would have solved the problem. With its removal they also removed the need to think along with it by making the potency of steel/reaving fangs equal.
In short, VPR had two things to micro manage: Making sure to have double reawaken for 2-minute burst, and maintaining NG debuff during downtime while pushing DPS with Steel Fang combo string, and they removed one of the two.
I won't lie, it feels like vipers lost one of their arms.
I feel you... now they are talking about a rework for BLM and it was fine back in EW. They broke it in DT and now they want to rework it, well I am willing to bet their "rework" will be get rid of the Enochian timer which is the only fail point of the class. This 100% would be a non-starter for me and I will probably be quitting the game. Their issue is they want to raise the floor and lower the ceiling of class performance because the really casual pos players want to feel "skilled" without even trying.
this wasnt a rework. lets fucking chill. and keeping a debuff on an enemy that literally didn't fall off if you had one electrode meandering around your braincell.
Please do not be so condescending towards people who had something they really loved, and now it's gone.
People did the math since the debuff was a 10% increase of your damage removing it and exchange “buffing” everything only increases your current damage by 2.5% I’m bad at math but this is a kind of a significative nerf don’t you think 😅 and personally I did like to keep up on that debuff
Considering they changed a core mechanic of the class, renamed a bunch of abilities and redid potencies for almost every ability it's definently a rework. They called removing 2 abilities and a positional from DRG a rework, this definitely outshines it.
Also damn man you are a condescending prick, I'd love to see your parses with an ego that huge.
You didn't play much VPR if you think this....
Managing nox did not require one brain cell it was literally the foundation of the class. It determined when you used CDs and requires you to set it up with a long timer before you double reawaken. It was the only thing the core rotation didn't have training wheels style follow the glowy buttons for. It required extra management if downtime was there.
It's removal means you can use your CDs in any order now. The only thing you need to worry about is holding for double reawaken. You do that and hit your positionals (if it's not a wall boss) and you will do 100% or your max damage.
The skull ceiling is completely gone. There are zero failure states.
"Oh no, they removed the ability that doesn't take any brain power to press, why are people so upset?"
All the jobs already are as easy as it gets. The fact that devs still find ways to remove those ''easy'' buttons even though they are oh so easy is exactly what makes people upset. Taking away things that don't need to be taken away is just straight up annoying. You gain nothing and lose something.
99% of the buttons in this game don't require any brain power to press. That is not the point though. By this logic if everything is so easy and meaningless, why don't we just remove 1-2-3 combos, positionals, all the dots healers have, all the simple buffs you need to upkeep and just straight up give every job a single button that you spam to the damage.
Obviously Viper hasn't changed much, but you can definitely feel that it feels somewhat more shallow to play. You can literally just follow to glowy buttons now to play the job for you. Before you at least had to actively manage your dot and could play around with some simple burst optimizations like 3 reawakens under dot. All of that doesn't matter anymore, you just... press what's glowing.
My damage went up a lot with no gear changes thanks to Vipers buffs Lol. Literally beating the outskirts dummies by 20-30 seconds faster than before. It’s literally BETTER. Just hit your flanks and rears and know how to use Double Awaken properly with raid CDs and you blast. Who cares if it’s Easy. It literally brings nothing but damage. Prior version was dumb and not complex at all. Practically nothing “exciting” was changed.
Refreshing Noxious was nothing special when you ended up just not pressing Dreadfang as often because Dreadwinder did enough stacking timer and then all u did was spam steel fang opener. Now the Combo openers properly alternate with equal potency making the rotation fluid and visually more pleasing.
Your double reawaken on Noxious Gash required nothing special. It was almost impossible to have debuff falloff because of Dreadwinder, hence the buffs removal because it’s pointless.
The class “identity” is not the debuff. It’s the stagger movement of positionals, Uncoiled fury “cartridges” for always uptime if heavy movement required, and SLITHER. Vipers biggest “identity” is how good slither is. It doesn’t get enough talk.
Viper being brain dead now sounds perfect for me❤
race to the bottom smh
Bruh, no, they removed rhe whole mechanic from DRG by removing Dragon Gauge. Really wish it was just Dragon Sight, but nope). All complexity, all possibilities that mechanic gave are gone now.
Press the shiny buttons, as a summoner, first time?
So you don't know when you should bank aetherflow, pop ifrit for immobile sections, titan or garuda depending on mob density, or whom to enkindle phoenix on? You're a bad SMN arent you?
People loved the summoner changes. Except for me, I thought it was boring. Months passed, now way more people think it's boring. Huh, so why did people call me crazy?
@@vabbi_1 Nah, as soon as they changed it, I abandoned summoner, tis shit.
@antonytomas1
You say this like its some kind of galaxy brain play when in reality you can figure all of this out with like an hour on the job. Like what you like man but don't pretend it's complex in the slightest
@@vabbi_1 Literally everything you said comes naturally from playing SMN except maybe using Aetherflow during Bahamut/Phoenix. Even the enkindle thing with Phoenix is often just gonna go to a tank if you really care about applying it on anyone but yourself.
RIP BOZO 😂😂😂
viper didn't need changes, but the potencies seem to lead to a overall damage increase for the top personal dps class. Vipers still eating good
wish people would complain about lion heart so it can be a 1 minute CD like DK new combo
Personally I don't see the problem here. DoTs/Debuffs don't add dynamism to a rotation, the job still plays the same. If you would ever lose that debuff at anytime then that means the rotation isn't the best one. The way 14 is designed is that you're not building a character, or even a toolkit, you're building an already optimized rotation. God help you if you deviate from it post ShB as that'll be a large DPS loss. This is coming from a guy who's mained DRG since all the way back in 2.x. When the job had one buff, one debuff, and three DoTs it had to keep up. 11 years later and it's lost all but Chaos Thrust but still plays exactly the same.
I've been playing SE games since 2004 with FF11, and they never keep their promises ever. Whenever they say "We'll do X" expect it to never happen, be completely underwhelming, or at best, get introduced and stop seeing updates immediately. I'm still waiting for more companions other than the GC Chocobo that SE promised for 14 back in 2.X.
It's not the debuff itself but the rhythm it brought. The removal of the debuff changed the way both combos are managed.
They used to be started based off the remainer of the debuff, along with Dreadfang management. Now it's just 1-1-1 and 2-2-2
At least spell the word you're using wrong correctly. Unless that debuff had put the Viper on a shorter GCD then everything else or was an OCG then maybe "rhythm" would fit. Let's be real here though, there is very little rhythm involved in this game.
I find it almost insulting that people use colorful descriptors in a game where everything is already optimized to the point of robotizing its players. Your buffs would never fall if you're using that already optimized rotation. Nothing else matters but building muscle memory and a little pattern recognition.
It is laughable people consider 1-2-3 and 2-3-4 is a meaningful difficulty increase over 1-1-1 and 2-2-2.
@@Durahan2I understand that feeling played in 2.x also but viper now has no room for error if any. before it was small but the level of freedom and ways you can kinda manipulate the debuff added its own flavor now the class is glowing button, press whatever whenever and your damage will be fine, the highest level of gameplay at viper is practically the same as the lowest levels with very small differences just game fundamentals and greed, the class simply plays itself more then it used now it’s a glorified auto pilot mode made to cater to anyone and everyone
@@CRXII There is no freedom. Please understand You use the optimal rotation for the biggest dps every single time. What the does "manipulate" or "flavor" even mean? It's the same as "Flow" or "Rhythm" or "Feel" ie, it means nothing. It's a complete joke.
The talk about "dah glowie buttons" is asinine. If you're even looking at your hotbars then you are bad at the game, simple as. Now onto the "levels of gameplay". Dude the game is all about learning the bestest rotation for your class and doing it enough to do it with numbed hands. Are peoples' brains so calcified and goonsick that muscle memory has become hard skill to master now?
Also for "no room for error". 2.X DRG was all about getting big nasty Full Thrust crits off. You fuck up your rotation? Did heavy thrust or disembowel drop? Did the boss go into an invuln phase? You're starting over from the beginning. Enjoy dropping the bottom of the DPS loser. The less said about MNK and greased stacks the better.
Last thing. Getting content to "Auto-pilot" is the whole point of the game. The last thing a 14 player should be doing is thinking about what to do next, how to react to mechanics, or what's the next esoteric keybind for your biblically long rotation. As a consequence Viper is as "auto-pilot" as every other melee dps.
@@Durahan2 I never struggled with the rotation but it was just the slight margin of error and even in downtime you know to reapply ASAP. That being said rotation can very from fights but try to maintain the general basis of the most optimized path to power. As someone who tries to play only viper I’m also talking about at all levels from 50 and even at 100 so it was just something else to have at lower levels to mess around with. I’m on the it is what it is wave as I know how the game goes. I just thought it was a little neat, yes it wasn’t perfect and had its problems but it could’ve been changed a little differently imo.
Viper didnt have any thought process behind it before the change either. The debuff was maintained essentially automatically just by doing your rotation, playing it after the patch I can say literally nothing has changed with how the job feels to play.
Good for you. For other people everything changed.
@@DharengoNO not really. You're not special.
@@Dharengo no lol, nothing changed and if you think it did youre coping
@@popelipo6281 Nothing changed _for you._
I also don't think you understand the meaning of the word cope.
Also why do you care so much about what others think? What's it to you?
@@eldenlion5850 Wdym? For me everything changed. I'm not even gonna play this job anymore.
Love how it was so crucial to him as part of the job but he didnt even get the name right
Because it's about the mechanic, not the name?
Oh wow you really got him. That completely destroys his entire argument. Good one
@MrCarlWax this was hardly an argument, though I should have phrased it less aggressively. I just latched onto this when I was grumpy after having been woken up by my sister's kids. As an actual point it's odd to me that he and I seem to have polar opposite opinions of Noxious Gnash as a mechanic as it barely even registered to me as a mechanic to worry about
@@kimaru135 If you didn't think about it then there's no reason to be against people who want it back. Not necessarily saying you are, just saying there's no reason to be.
Applying a dot slows the job down, if reaper didn't have deaths design it would just keeping upping its ceiling. Viper offers no buff meaning it needs to keep increasing ceiling. It also does not have as a high as burst as other jobs. It simply helps it continue to GO without slowing it down, overall this was a good change this is a hot take tbh. The moment you apply a dot that does hardly any dps that's a loss every single press forcing viper to cascade down to 2200s.
Imma keep it a buck: The removal of the debuff doesn't do much of anything. Yeah, having to manage a debuff was nice, but the reason Viper is so braindead is because your hotbar is just barren compared to other jobs. It was really the only thing you had to manage, realistically. Viper has no temporary/conditional buffs, no utility, no defensive, no real having to worry about buff alignment outside of Double/Triple Reawaken and a super flexible Rotation that doesn't really care for downtime, deaths and such. Samurai for instance: you get 1-2 GCDs of downtime (specially now) and now you have to work overtime to get all your stuff aligned with your Bana and burst again. Viper has some management with ability charges and I think that's quite fun side of it, but it's very one note and simple. Just give the job more conditional and interesting buttons and I think we're back.
@@SirUmnei I mean I see what you want with conditionals and I would be ok with small ones. Death Rattle with a slight poison could be cool but Slither is their defensive. It would be interesting if during Reawaken you took slightly less damage, maybe 5%? Or 10%? But man Reawaken Bloodbath is straight up a full heal from 0 in like two global lol
It sounds like he was mad about dragoon then got mad about viper losing its obnoxious debuff 😂
What's actually fun about managing the debuff? There's no satisfaction or visual feedback or anything for doing it. It's just tedium. Reaper at least got rewarded for enemies dying under the debuff where VPR got punished if mobs died too fast after applying debuff
People like different things for different reasons. I loved noxious gash. Now that it's gone, I've no reason to play Viper. And if the thing that dies isn't a boss, who cares? And if it's a boss... Also who cares but for a different reason?
@@Dharengo That's okay. Not every job is for every person. Thankfully you still have reaper for that playstyle, or bard if you like managing timers.
@@SmoothAsFelt I'm going back to monk. Ty for taking the civil route though.
@@Dharengo Honestly I'm surprised you enjoy monk if you don't enjoy viper. Viper feels closer to endwalker monk than monk does now with the two buffs to manage and unba bunga press every button burst window
@@SmoothAsFelt I mean how does a human being explain personal preference? Also what buffs to manage? I just press the shiny button. Those two buffs are not a mechanic, unlike for SAM.
Current monk has a rotation I jive with. I lived with Viper when it still had NG, not anymore. Going back to monk just makes sense to me.
People complained about losing positionals. So the removed something else and people still cry.
I played and leveled Viper lv100 before these changes, but I am happy with every changes that was made it the recent patch.
Viper debuff really wasn't that big of a deal to manage I feel, heck I barely pressed that red button to put the debuff since the 30sec other button applied it (I cannot recall the skills name sorry...)
In EX or raid I can see it being less interesting, since its all single target anyway, but for dungeons mobs, as exemple of multiple ennemies, reapplying gnashing gnash was just unfun or "oh im mid combo, can't break it, but the debuff..", Per say I had to aoe to break my rotation so I could restart on my 1 of combo was weirdly unatural.
also maybe cause I haven't played enough of it, due to Oroboros being same button as Awoken and the animation of the hit is kinda delay, I sometimes would dobule press my burst without wanting to, but can't reaply the debuff while in it so..
They could of made so the debuff was given differently, but then would it just be like Reaper?
Now it feels too much like Samurai? but faster?
I see the removal of the debuff more like a quality of life and I enjoy the job having a rotation now. Yes its just clicking the glowy, but it'll make leveling Viper and understanding the job a lot better. I sure hated leveling it, took me a while to understand, I think it'll be better now.
I think the removal is also point that Viper should work in ALL content. Apparently in TEA viper was doing atrocious, I'd assume now its better since they don't have to slowy reapply a debuff on jag doll, Living hnad/liquid, Alexander after downtime and PA after downtimes.
im rambling again I know...
Short: Me like Viper now, a good change of pace for other melee, I shall still break my combos/rotation cause I'm no melee player...
I dont miss Kaiten
and uh ye
Sorry if I sounds like a complete contrarian, people often tell me... I guess I just enjoy things that might be more of hotakes for other
From 2 brain cells needed to play to 1 brain cell needed to play 😂😂
And picto not nerfed
Idk if they are even "cooking" in this expansions.
There has been more fails then in any other expansion. From msq to balance...
how do you know if someone dislikes the dawntrail msq? don't worry, they'll tell you
Fitting my subscription just run out lol
this expansion is just a big L
You ff fans overreact over everything 😂
People like something. The thing they like no longer exists. People are sad. What exactly is the overraction?
@@DharengoMost of this comment section is overreacting,don't need to look for it.
@@eldenlion5850 "It's totally happening, all you need to do is look." Isn't falsifiable. If someone says they can't see it, you can just say they didn't look hard enough.
if this is "overreacting" to you, i think its safe to say your emotionally immature af IRL
@@KratomKid you're*
Not only do we no longer have to balance a debuff that forces us into a weaker rotation, them spreading it out across the kit gave us a 2.5% DPS increase. the Viper changes are objectively a good thing. I see very little people actually *liking* debuff management, most people I see on a variety of different forums hate it
Oh the horror of having a fail point built into a class, something that skilled players will work to min/max during fights and casual pieces of S*** will cry about.
@@Spartan1312 if you genuinely think keeping a debuff timer rolling is in ANY WAY skillful gameplay I highly demand you go and touch any other game ever made.
Oh how skilled you are! you press 1 new button every 6 GCDs to refresh the timer then it's back to the same rotation! you're so skilled!
THAT is skillful to you?? and you're calling other players casual? please give me a fucking break. go clear an ultimate or a savage, then you can come sit at the adult table and talk about skillful gameplay
@@CreateAmazment No... doing that while focusing on mechanics at the same time takes skill. Its the split focus of both while requiring dps to maintain a high level of play to meet a enrage timer that requires skill. Either one by itself takes almost no skill. Your class has a auto rotating rotation, you can not even fat finger it to break its rotation... its legit brainless, you just hit the glowing button for the win and anyone who thinks otherwise is lying or super causal trying to feel better about a otherwise automated class.
@@CreateAmazment its not as simple as pressing it after 6 gcds lmao
@ShiyaNuu then when were you refreshing gnash? Did you have some weird combo not a single other player ever used? Cuz the only time I ever pressed the second combo start was to refresh gnash, which typically happened after 2 combos, which is 6 gcds.
its not that big of a deal stop whining!
people like you are the reason criticism is never heard and job design is just slowly getting worse
Bro really made an 11min video defending a a useless debuff that literally did nothing to the gameplay but expose bad vipers (which were the vast majority of viper players), good, remove death's design next.