I think there's a huge divide in the community between people who enjoy the whiteroom theorycrafting of rotations and the people who just wanna get in there with intuitive skills. Personally, I think it's okay to have both but the developers and the majority of the JP community largely falls in the latter camp. The JP community and the developers are in unison with the idea that your job should just flow naturally and the challenge should come from responding to what the encounter is asking of you. Rather than thinking about dumbing down or how skill expression is lost, I think it'd better serve you to examine it from the lens of getting your attention off your job bars or spreadsheets and into the encounter design. Viper is just a harbinger of all jobs going this way
As someone who came from WoW I like Viper alot, I was fine with how it was before this change but yeah.. Getting our eyes off the hotbars is huge. End of the day Viper is still much more complicated than any class in WoW so im not worried.
@@OnlyBeysthis is. a joke right? every class in xiv is a builder spender, including this. every single job in xiv is a rogue/feral druid/paladin with a coat of paint on it
But your job should flow intuitively. Also, if you enjoy difficult jobs then play those? But this idea that everyone has to suffer so you can choose a difficult job and feel it worthwhile is ridiculously silly. If the only enjoyment you get out of a difficult job isn't mastery but numbers, then you don't like difficult jobs, you like big numbers and big barriers of entry so your big numbers feel extra special and fill the black hole where your self-esteem oughta be. Either way, we should not be turning games into jobs (rather than what they are... entertainment) simply because vocal minorities in gaming communities want to push their power-trip on the entire base.
@@Theheadless1858 But then you're asking for non braindead jobs to be penalised. They'll *always* perform worse at an equal skill level unless they're mastered. Mastery should not be the bar. It should be the goldpot at the end of the road, where your efforts are rewarded. Doesn't need to be by some stupidly large margin, but there has to be some merit to not challenging yourself as little as possible. And since you're already inadvertedly okay with the braindead jobs being outright better because there's simply no failstates that lower your throughput, why not reward those who master their jobs by a similar margin? Viper doesn't need to invalidate all the other melees.
I'm not really against changing certain 123 rotations to one button, since I gets rid of button bloat and it's not like you can really mess it up since on keyboard it's just 1,2,3 or controller it's just hold down trigger and press 3 buttons. My issue comes in with not adding more to the kit to make the job more interesting.
I don't really think the debuff was a big win personally; the coil generator moves also applied the debuff, which I think is what led to them removing it, since it ended up with the two-sword class only using one of its "sword" lead-ins a fraction of the time when compared to the other. It's certainly easier without the debuff, but I do think it better delivers on the gameplay thematics of "you have two swords and you switch between them" a bit better when you're switching *every* combo.
Yeah, but PLD is the exact same way right now on the tank side. Almost WAR level survivability on single targets and actually has good ranged options. I mean, it's burst window is ALL ranged attacks.
As a class, I already love viper because it's a nod to Final Fantasy IX and how Zidane played, but it's also satisfying watching my character rip and tear with his animations. But for how easy the class is to play, I agree that it does too much damage lmao, especially after the debuff was removed
This is my favorite job in Dawntrail, but I have to agree that the damage it does vs. the easiness of the job is kinda nutty. Going to enjoy it while it lasts though lol
I like how we flow between the two main combos now but I don’t think they needed to get rid of the debuff. I could have seen them keeping the debuff on vicewinder, at least you’d have something to keep track of other than Serpent’s Ire every two minutes.
I just...really dislike the dodge. I wish it was like Dancer's where you can dodge around freely instead of having to target something. I say this as a Dragoon and Reaper main, who both have dodges that can get them wherever they want to go. I switched to Viper and the moment I realized the dodge was target only, my whole entire outlook on the class diminished.
Interesting, I feel like the non-targeted dashes often feel way clunkier and harder to use since you cant determine their distance while a targeted dash will always get you to your target
@@HiImFox It comes down to tastes really. Like I said I main classes that have non-target dodges, so gauging the distance and the angle is like second nature at this point, whereas I dislike having to target an ally if I want to dodge out of the way of an attack. That feels clunky to me personally, and restricts movement.
@@soulechelon2643 assuming you're on mouse and keyboard, just make a mouseover macro for dashing to teammates. it's faster and doesn't change your target.
@@StripedSooner That doesn't fix the problem of having to rely on a teammate to dodge. And I would much rather have a dodge that allows me to go where *I* want, not where my teammates might be. That sort of freedom cannot be fixed by a macro.
I think you made some good points. I do think UF is absolutely gross damage wise. I disagree with nerfing the job since you're just switching who's on top without dealing with what makes it better than the others. I also disagree that rotational difficulty = damage. Black Mage is still rotationally one of the easiest classes in the game, but people largely agree that playing it is still complicated due to trying to keep that simple rotation going. I do think Viper is the best solo PF class by far since you don't really have to play into raid buffs to do decently. Viper is the easiest melee to play by far. I agree with that. It is also the squishiest melee as well. If we're talking about the easiest job overall Summoner absolutely has that crown, but I don't think that's why its damage is low. We can thank the raid buff and raise ability for that. Pure DPS just need to do damage which is what Viper is doing right now. It should do more than RPR, DRG and NIN. SAM should be buffed to be better in full uptime and slightly weaker in less. All of this is my opinion though, so feel free to disagree.
i actually kind of like the design idea of VPR not having any damage boost cooldowns, i despise the 2 min burst meta and raidwide buffs should be removed from the game so it kind of feels like they made VPR with 8.0 intentions in mind if they actually decide to remove that god awful meta when the job changes come then, so in that accord i actually really like the design, however the simplicity is killing it for me, i have not unlocked VPR yet and i dont intend to for a while since i just do not care, it kind of sucks that we got another really easy melee right after we got RPR (i didn't even want another melee, i wanted new tank or healer) but the flexibility of the job is atleast nice if nothing else. its just absurd that SE again have no idea what they actually want a job to be, the reason why the damage debuff was removed was because the job was too busy (note the BUSY not HARD), jobs like GNB are busy, but its not hard, that is why they enforce the continuation on it constnatly even tho it does not suit a tank at all, RPR is busy during burst, NIN is busy during burst, all the jobs are busy during bursts atleast, some jobs are even outside bursts like MNK somewhat, so the reasoning behind the VPR change and removal of the debuff make no sense, job was never hard but people just complained that "there is too much to do" well so does every job except SMN and such that are just mind numblingly boring, but again SE listened the wrong people, it definetly wasnt the midcore or hardcore players who wanted the job to be easier/less busy, it was definetly again the casuals who didn't wanna bother actually learning the job
A new tank wouldn't add anything of value. They can't even design the current 4 right. All of them are just slightly weaker versions of Warrior with the same dps rotation. 123 builders with a 4 spender. A weaker version of inner release. That will then let you use your 4 spender for free 3 times. 3 ogcd's that line up with the burst. A 1 or 2 minute heavy hitting GCD that also lines up with the burst. A slightly worse equivalent of Blood whetting. A slightly worse version of Holmgang. A slightly worse version of Shake it off. Let's not forget that Nascent is the only short mit that you can actually double dip either. And whenever a tank finally does something better or different than Warrior, bald man and his community cries until it's all streamlined and everyone defaults into Warrior again. The only plus side to adding a new tank is that we'd have 4 different ways of looking better than Warrior instead of 3. I'd rather have them rework certain tanks into dps because that's the only engaging role left.
@@casualduck1580 lol. a simple 2 seconds of looking at logs shows that warrior is 3rd best tank right now at best. war/gnb/pld all have similar play, so no, not everyone is defaulting to warrior - and pld even has more clears on the pinnacle fight. drk is the semi "unique" tank and has by far the least people playing it, because being "unique" isn't a good thing in this game, despite your best efforts to ignore reality. your entire premise is completely bogus. the fact that you think the bald bogeyman has the power to make changes in the game and alter how the dev team thinks is rather hilarious, though.
@@StripedSooner If you're still comparing dps to determine which tank is the best when they're all doing the same you're part of the problem. Their dps is the same. Utility is all that matters now. If doing 0.000001% less group damage mattered then War wouldn't see more than double the pickrate of the ''highest'' Adps tank.
I think it's great that this job doesn't have a lot *thinking* to do and it's more about correctly using the buttons that have lit up *fast enough* to keep up with the speed it should be doing. I have actively pushed the *wrong* button in the combo chain because paying attention to my buttons/gauges at the same time as reading a mechanic, both of which need to happen quick, can sometimes just cause my brain to hiccup. I have accidentally used Vicewinder and then *forgot* and used Reawaken because Serpent's Ire was ready to go. I have accidentally pushed my oGCDs in the wrong order because of either fatfinger or ping or me just *going too fast*. The *SPEED* of VPR is what makes the job difficult compared to other jobs that have complexity in how their burst works, and it's great that we have that for people who want that simple speed. Also, NIN doesn't care about melee uptime *during their burst*. I know you try to discount NIN here when you talk about Rattling Coil being ridiculous, but remember that Rattling Coil is VPR's hardest-hitting button (outside of burst window) and we have literally no reason NOT to push it most of the time. VPR has to actively think ahead and remember to hold it for when it's needed. NIN on the other hand can start their Mug/Trick Attack in melee, disconnect from melee, and then for stay disconnected for every burst button that actually matters. Hyosho Ranryu > 2x Raiton > 3 justsu from TCJ > even Phantom Kamaitachi (if it's up that time). Yes, at that point, no more ranged buttons - but you can spam daggers without wasting Raiju stacks. Until VPR was released, NIN was absolutely the *BEST* melee for fights that usually screw over melee. I'd be sitting there laughing my ass off at the other melee DPS the whole time.
@@HiImFox - Kind of a weird argument to make. It's almost like you've never raided on NIN. Whenever NIN has downtime that forces them out of melee, the priority goes PK > Mudra > Knife throwing, assuming it's 100% impossible to get into melee on the target. It's a DPS upgrade even out of burst because it's better to not waste Mudra. I've yet to really see it happen that way, though. What you present is a purely hypothetical situation that *just doesn't happen* The raid devs nearly always make major mechs happen at the 2-minute mark specifically to force players to adapt to it. Look, your whole argument in this whole video is just plain dumb. At the end of the day, every GCD you're pushing a keybind, and that's all there is to it. That's true for all dps - melee or not. Pretending that going "OH NO I HAVE TO PUSH 5 INSTEAD OF JUST ANOTHER 2" somehow means a job is harder or more complicated is purely 100% ridiculous and shows that you're overthinking it. You're still pushing the same number of buttons (outside of different jobs having different GCDs, which would actually mean that VPR and NIN push more buttons than the other melee do because we push them more often) Skill in FFXIV does not come from doing your rotation. Skill comes from boss mechanics. Rotation is a non-issue and takes zero effort regardless of job or number of keybinds. Frankly, every DPS feels the exact same to play. Anybody who can't cut it at their rotation isn't bad at their job, they're bad at *gaming as a whole*
@@DrakeWurrum your last paragraph is something i can absolutely not understand at all Some of your skill expression absolutely comes from the classes you play and how you have to adjust to different scenarios that are presented to you. Otherwise we could just all take a dummy press 1111111 and only do boss mechanics
Yeah the balancing of jobs rn is so off, idk why anyone would ever play machinist over viper cuz even if you just stand still hitting the boss and hit like half of your positionals you'd still outdamage them. I think the ranged tax is too much and there should be a better ranking of jobs based on their utility and ease of use. Melees should always be at a higher bracket of damage due to the fact that they have to deal with uptime and positionals. Ranged should be on the lower bracket bc of 100% uptime and freedom of movement. Casters should stand somewhere between the two bc they are trading some freedom of movement for damage and needing positional awareness.
Absolutely agree with your philosophy of balance. Its ironic that youre probably currently gaining more damage by running double melee (one being viper) and double caster over one machinist LOL even taking the 1% mainstat loss into account!
I Think, Viper should be on Top with Samu. They have nothing else, just pure damage. And viper doesnt even has a shield or something else to protect themselves, thats why Viper can have uptime, even from range if you plan it right. And if you look at how many parses are out there, waaaay more ppl playing viper and gearing it, so yeah if the best melee players on the world play viper, you dont have much to compare. lets wait until all ppl have BIS and go into the fight with other jobs
@@HiImFox not but it's a reason Viper has UF. Reaper for example can take 1 more hit staying closer to the boss if it's proximity dmg. More uptime + heal for every one after So since Viper is a glass canons and can't provide anything like this, he need something different. Viper damage is crazy but so is picto And even samurai gets closer now, since more ppl playing this job.
@@elohimttv5806 Pictomancer requieres cast uptime. comits to almost 4 sec motifs cast. some knowledge of the fight to keep uptime (like black mage). comparing picto and viper you already wasted your turn argumenting lol. you're insulting picto mains
@@goropanckechi3028 with EVERY Job u have to know the fight and when u can greed for 1 more gcd. even with viper you have to know, when u need your UF so you can use them before overstacking. Picto too has many instant casts and can hold his Hammer Skill for sequences you have to move more. this game isnt that hard at all
Absolutely love viper, but honestly mainly because of the aesthetic. being a WoW player since vanilla and maining rogue, i mained ninja when I first started playing FFXIV, then I loved playing reaper. and when FINALLY the duel sword "rogue" like job viper was released i was so excited! i am 1000% maining viper right now. but I agree with u so much. especially since they took away noxious gnash. there is nothing to manage. just hit ur buttons and things die. now the job is super fun and i still very much love just ALWAYS pressing something. but compared to ninja, and even reaper. seems like something is missing with the rotational challenge within the job. i try not to complain because I don't want them to change too much. but even taking away noxious gnash i think was such a big mistake. least we had something to manage, and not having that up was a huge dps loss and was very punishing (and again wasnt hard to keep up but still. easy to get lost in pressing buttons and forget to reapply before a reawaken window, WHICH WAS GOOD!!!). now. who cares press buttons lol. anyways rant over. viper is Dope AF. but needs some real tuning for sure. positional imo are whatever. give viper a positional for every single skill. it wouldn't change anything.
reaper is just a significantly slower version of viper though lol. they both have similar functions of their rotation and how they build up to their bursts, viper just hits buttons twice as often to do it. i want to love reaper, but it's so boring. viper alleviates the boredom with fast tempo at least.
@@StripedSooner i agree with you. i look at reaper more like a bezerker or a barbarian feel. slow but powerful. lol but i agree viper i feel like im always super saiyan lolol
I don’t think it should be the top dps but I don’t mind if a couple jobs are easy to play like summoner (even if they do relatively high dps). There are other jobs to fulfill that difficulty/complexity = dps role. Add a little more complexity somewhere and slight potency nerfs then it’s cool to me
I think its actually good to have an easier melee class in the game to give more options for players who like melee but maybe don't want to play something difficult. Between reaper and viper you have two easy options now with different playstyles
To give Viper some credit, I'd say Reaper isn't THAT far from it difficulty wise. Perhaps a small notch above Viper but the two of them are pretty similiar. New MNK likely on the same grounds of Reaper given how massively they nerfed down the skill ceiling from the class from being the hardest melee down to being on the easy side.
While Reaper definitely is not the hardest melee, theres a significant difference imo between RPR and VPR. RPR has to plan out his burst by the GCD to fit his double enshroud into Arcane Circle, any wrong GCD means you will lose damage because your perfectio won't fit in or you are missing damage gcds from the first enshroud window. Monk, while once you know what you have to do is not as hard anymore, definitely is confusing to players due to not knowing how to use perfect balance while VPR out of the gates feels obvious on what to do. Unironically any class with a buff is already harder than VPR since vpr never needs to care about playing into it
@@HiImFox reaper straight up just lines up the debuff timer with their raid buff, then hits enshroud with 7 seconds left on the raid buff cd. then you debuff, enshroud gcd, debuff. it never changes, and the timers tell you exactly when and what to do. there is no planning at all lmao. come on, now.
@@StripedSooner i mean i get it, its not HARD but its still more to do than viper lol. You gotta pay attention to your own burst, pool your gauge and any downtime changs things around for you. You gotta make sure to not drop your combo etc. Like I said, its not hard but its definitely harder than viper.
Feel like there's two sides to this even though, I agree that Viper shouldn't do as much damage as it does right now. Yes, there is that part where a job with such and easy rotation should not be dealing such big numbers but then there's the counter to that as it being only damage and no support utility other than feint which all melees have anyway. For a long time now I've seen a lot of Machinist players saying they felt their job should do more damage compared to the other Phys ranged because they have less utility. It's weird that these two jobs are on opposite sides of the dps spectrum when they are both mostly selfish dps and both the easiest in their category to play well.
Before this patch it really felt like you had to go into your 2 minute burst phases methodically in order to make sure your buffs didn’t fall off. I think it’s really been understated by the community how much easier it is to optimize the job with the additional 20 seconds added to your positional buffs. If you had bad planning your buff timers all being 40 seconds meant that you ran the risk of everything falling off in a domino effect and I found that VERY engaging. The job is still flashy and you press buttons the same, but they took the tension/fun out of the job for me personally.
And to elaborate a little further, it makes the buffs on the job feel like a given. You don’t really make an effort to maintain your buffs as of current patch. You apply them and can forget about them. I think this makes Viper far less satisfying to play for anything above casual content.
@@StriderZessei you seemed to have missed my point. By that measure I could assume you advocate for the oversimplification of jobs. You see if you had any interest in job optimization with Viper then you should be aware that you have a goal of fitting 2x ouroboros in every 2minute window following the opener. Sometimes the devs create moments of tension during burst windows or may even require you to break off from the boss so without even getting into uncoiled fury potency, how many rattling coils could you spend between two reawakening combos without dropping a single buff including the positional buffs pre patch? What was typically the best combo starter post burst? Honestly who cares now, just vicewinder post burst now because the devs don’t think the average player is capable of figuring out an optimal solution to maintaining 4 buffs. You could have thought critically but instead you boiled my point down to Maintaining buffs hard, which i don’t agree with in the first place. I found the loop before more engaging than a soulless husk of a melee DPS that has everything auto reapplied on loop without the risk of losing dps.
i think they should just give it a raid buff nerf its damage put it around reaper lvl there, both were around the same difficulty give or take 1 or half a tier
I was so excited for Viper, even if I didn't know the best rotations, its a new class and I like learning it. These new changes are so strange and seem to dumb down the class, no bleeds, infinite buffs that don't make any sense, might as well just make em perma if they can't fall off, and now everything just combos into each other too? Hoping this is just temporary and they are fine tuning it and will rework it into something more complete.
Compared to how Summoner got slashed into an unrecognizable job in Endwalker, I'd say people are overblowing this situation just a bit w/ Viper. In fights like M2, keeping focus on Gnash was insanely annoying cause of how often melee has to disconnect from the boss in that fight and the first boss in that strayborough dungeon. If thats the kind of fight design they're gonna be doing, having you constantly in and out while on the move, it may be for the best that it's gone imo. When they mentioned VPR changes, I was worried they were gonna reduce positionals since people were whining about that, and I saw no one really whining about Gnash.
@@HiImFox Yeah, I'm not saying people can't dislike the change don't get me wrong. I just feel like overblowing it into major statements like I've seen people do calling it "brain dead easy now" is not the kind of discussion to be having. It kind of feels like a slight to the SMN mains out there pre-ew who know how that really feels to have a complex job reduced to simon says.
It did truly become braindead easy though unfortunately. I did dip my toes into viper a bit before the changes and i thought it was simple but still had some stuff going on, but post patch for real, nothing really matters. Regarding SMN I quit right before EW so I didnt really know what happened there i just hear what people say about it. I used to play it a bit in SHB but thats about it
@@HiImFox SMN went from complex dot mage class to "Press Green for Garuda, Good Job!" "Press Yellow for Titan, good job!" "Press Red for Ifrit, good job!" I'm not exaggerating with how much they gutted it in endwalker by saying it in that way, either. So forgive me if after a change like that the VPR change just feels like a nothing burger to me.
New expansion and new class means new overpowered class that is extra simple and massively easy and powerful…..in order to sell the new expansion…. Changes and nerfs incoming in due time….but for now it attracts sales of the new expansion. Every MMO does this. New expansion introduces something completely overtuned or broken and increases sales of the expansion. When things settle down then they will begin small nerfs to the class to balance it with the rest of the jobs. ESO is famous for this each and every expansion whether it be a item or class.
highly doubt they overtune a class for sales i think most people just buy the game for gameplay, story, aesthetics and not "oh hell ye the new class is broken"
It is baffling to me that the same team made picto and viper. I know it's likely 2 different designers but it's still the 2 new jobs this expac. Picto is so fun, varied, challenging and fleshed out. Viper on the other hand feels like it has a lvl 50 kit at lvl 100 to me, it seriously feels very barebones, especially now with patch 7.05. The fact that it deals an absolutely absurd amount of damage now that you don't have to micro manage noxious gash and can just reawaken with no real planning going into burst AND you have by far the best melee downtime ranged ability makes every other melee feel like "why am I not playing viper right now?".
The answer to that is, as a former Viper main, it's simply unfun now. I was so happy with playing Viper and it literally kept me playing the game doing EXs and planning to do Savage and stuff as Viper. Then LITERALLY 7.05 happened the day Savage drops, and i immediately dropped it for Samurai. Viper had just enough going for it before the patch, it was NOT just "press shiny button" even if that's quite literally most of what you do, there's a lot of micro managing, and overall i'd say it's about slightly easier than Reaper. Whatever people who didn't play Viper seriously before 7.05 think Viper was? 7.05 Viper literally IS. And if you're the type of person who'd simply pick jobs only based on how much damage they do in the meta, frankly, i think you're part of the problem anyways, so fuck those guys.
What SQE has done is essentially made Viper a complete fomo class. If you want other examples of new classes, look at augmentation evoker from wow that literally broke the game on launch
@@ryudhal "And if you're the type of person who'd simply pick jobs only based on how much damage they do in the meta, frankly, i think you're part of the problem anyways, so fuck those guys." This isn't a problem, this is something you simply have to do if you're doing top-end prog. Do you think world first or any serious proggers give a fuck about how much fun you are having on a job? No. You will pick whatever will secure you the fastest clear. There is nothing wrong with picking a job that is doing well over your personal enjoyment. You cannot blame players for what is a game design/balancing issue. I am not that guy, I am a healer main, not a melee main, but I do feel this with WHM/AST. I would have likely gone with WHM this tier, hell, I spent my TOP tome on a WHM cane in EW in prep, but it's balancing is so unbelievably shit right now that playing it over AST feels like absolute garbage.
@@ridleyroid9060 World First raiders are the top 1%. You should never balance a game based on the top 1% or the bottom 1%. There's not a single fight where you can play your jobs to a competent level and you'll die from lack of damage past the first few weeks. None. 0. This entire "damage should be tied to job difficulty" stuff has been talked and overdone for years. It's inane. The damage variance has NEVER been bad enough for it to matter that much for 99% of the playerbase. The caveat to my statement i forgot to say was "UNLESS you're literally a world first raider, in which you SHOULD play the most powerful jobs to get to your goals quickly." It only matters for them and ONLY for the race. If you're playing any content atm (yes, even TOP. Yes, even back in Endwalker) as long as you play your job even at a decent competence, literally not even much optimisation is needed to clear with ANY proper comp. If you're just some month 1 Savage raider and you're picking jobs based on the meta, simply put you have no idea what you're doing.
@@ridleyroid9060 "Any serious proggers" implying I'm not? I cleared Arcadion Savage M1 and M2 one session each from completely blind fresh, the only reason i haven't fully cleared the tier week one was cus i don't have much time to play anymore like i used to. First few clears? We had upwards of 5 deaths. Didn't even get close to enrage. If you're assuming i don't know what I'm talking about, you assumed wrong. I've done every single Pandaemonium Savage fights without thinking about meta comps whatsoever and have cleared every single one of them with atleast purple+ parses on Reaper only, never swapped for the entire expansion (not even that high purple btw, meaning I'm not even doing top of the top damage with LOTS of mistakes) and i have not ONCE had an issue with damage when in most of EW iirc Reaper was playing second fiddle to Dragoon. Let me repeat: Meta comps ONLY matter if you're a world first raider. You're not. Most of us aren't.
The problem is the combination of needing to do more damage than everyone else due to having 0 party buff or personal defensive while being that easy to play. Either is not bad on its own but the combination of both is a bit much. Nerfing its damage will make VPR obsolete. I do enjoy VPR but I also see the problems it brings.
But wouldnt that mean SAM is currently obsolete? considering that it has lower damage and does not provide any party buffs? On top of being harder to play. I wouldnt take mitigation really into consideration since most classes have the same/similiar ones and they should imo not affect the damage a class can provide!
@@HiImFox Kind of yes, but it as least has some sort of survivability with third eye or whatever the upgraded name is. It would be very rarely a bonus but in some situations it might make the SAM survive something a VPR would have died to. Getting these two jobs balanced will be hell for SE I am pretty sure since all they do is damage... the one dealing less could be considered useless/obsolete. The ease of use should put VPR below SAM however.
Excactly, having third eye should not impact the damage samurai does, in fact top tier samurai players will take damage on purpose to procc third eye more often LOL its imo a bad skill but thats for a different discussion. And ye, balancing them will be hell for SE. Either you make Viper more difficult to justify its dmg output to be on par with samurai or you straight up make it easier and its a lower difficulty ceiling with lower damage as a consequence which would be absolutely fine in my opinion since imo an average player can do more damage on a nerfed version of viper than they would on a samurai as it is harder
Defensives should have very little interaction with DPS unless we're talking about DPS who are literal borderline tanks like the inverse of GNB basically. in fact, I still fully believe that ALL DPS REGARDLESS OF THEIR UTILITY should have a personal defensive cooldown and it is a genuine failing that they do not.
Of course! You were probably using Material UI? In this discord discord.gg/T5sWUpgNPD you can find the new "material ui" or rather 2 new UIs, FROST UI (which is what im using) and a continued support of Material UI by someone else!
i agree that its too powerful in current content, but it would be a bit problematic to nerf it too much since in pre dawntrail/endwalker content it’s straight up the lowest dps in the game as is
I feel like Nerfing is never the answer as you will just end up with a more volatile/split community than it already is with current job design. They should just do what they keep doing in these situations, adjust bosses health and buff other jobs to compensate.
job wasn't for me. i like speed! but i also prefer being busier (for me that means more buttons being pressed in quick succession) I personally prefer having more individual skills than fingers. No salt. just aint for me. but I'm really liking dragoon now!
@@casualduck1580 - Rotational complexity shouldn't be a factor in DPS capability. It's exclusively a fun factor. People who want complex rotations should be able to do good dps. People who *don't* want complex rotations should *also* be able to do good dps. The vast majority of players don't pick the job that is "easy to play" but because it fits the class fantasy/aesthetic they desire most.
@@DrakeWurrum That works up until i feel like i'm wasting my time playing something that's not completely braindead. It doesn't work. I don't ''want'' to work harder for less reward. It's such a bizarre take. Vpr doesn't have to suddenly become worthless but it can not be top dps.
@@casualduck1580 Doesn't matter what changes jobs get. Everyone will always complain about what the highest dps job is. Sam is the highest and BLM players will complain about they should be because harder to play. Every raid tier we get these same arguments, people will never be happy. You saying you don't wanna put in extra work and still do less just solidifies the problem. By that logic if they made everything piss easy or rocket science hard, you play which ever one strokes your ego the most. If everything was easy people would still play hardest hitting jobs, and vice versa.
@@UlfgeirValbjorn God forbid a melee dps with a sped up warrior dps rotation does slightly less than the ones with an actual dps rotation and failstates. Wouldn't want to create an environment where people feel encouraged to not take the path of no resistance would we now?
Yup when I heard him say he doenst use AoE in dungeons I had to rewind to see I heard him wrong. Okay wasnt hearing wrong. Yeah Ive heard enough you dont know Viper.
Viper feels like Melee Summoner except the damage is good. The lack of Gnash management turned the class into press the button that lights up. Similar to WoW Fury Warrior. The discrepancy between DPS with easier jobs doing higher damage with low effort vs. harder jobs doing less damage for more work is concerning. But it could also be a case of overtuning the new Jobs at launch only to bring them in line in a later patch. Gotta lure in players to play the shiny new jobs.
I feel like I have real issue with 14's dps of oversimplification. I've seen some streamers say that "jobs have to be simple so fights can be hard!" but Wow and other MMOs have proven that wrong a THOUSAND TIMES over. The fact that 14 has managed to run into almost evrey problem modern wow has in half the lifetime in terms of class design is genuinely extremely concerning
I find Viper a lot easier than other jobs as well. Combos condensed to a few buttons and not a lot of extra buffs and abilities to use make it very straightforward and hard to mess up. I do find it more fun than other melees though, as I personally prefer action games with fast-paced combat and less skills/buttons to press than classic MMOs. It's becoming a problem for me because after getting used to Viper I find myself not wanting to play any other melee job (I'm a ranged main so that's not a big issue, but still) 🥲 Also I do find Viper a lot easier on keyboard than on controllers with XHB. Most of my friends play with XHB and many are complaining about it being a bit too busy. Edit: On damage output, I do think having classes like Samurai and Monk do the same or more damage than Viper is definitely the way to go. Nerfing the ranged combo might be a good idea as I think the "fun" of Viper mainly comes from the melee combos anyway...
just play machinist, piss easy, and also doesn't deal any damage, and SE doesn't care about you. Fr tho they should nerf it, the .05 buff not only made it even more braindead but also so strong like you said lol
I kind of agree that viper ATM is overtuned compared to the other class, but so is Pictomancer so maybe its just a new class thing and they are gonna asses this in the future balance patches at least. This Tier does seem to favor uncoiled fury A LOT with downtime lasting 3 seconds at most so i can see why it does seem unfair. Now, to the 'harder jobs should deal more damage' statement, I kinda don't believe in that. Well of course each patch there is going to be classes that deal more damage than other classes and thats kinda what I like about it. I could be playing paladin for a patch and the damage might be low but maybe next patch my class could be up there with the big leagues, y'know the GNB and DRK or WAR which nowdays paladin is actually pretty strong compared to whatever the fuck it was in Endwalker before the rework. If every class always had a hierarchy and did the same damage each patch in my opinion people would just play the better jobs, every world first race would be the same comp and for me that would be kind of boring (Remember Abyssos where everyone ran like GNB/DRK and Bard was bad to play and MCH was a joke compared to DNC so everyone was just DNC). You could say that the way i'm describing this shouldn't be a reason to play the other jobs and you should just play the job you like, but doesn't it kinda feel bad when the job you like to play is just 'technically' worse than the other jobs because its easier to play according to some people at SQE who will make up the damage hierarchy inhouse. I remember how I felt playing P8S as Paladin week 1 and technically griefing since I would be doing equal/greater damage if i just actually trained a bit of GNB before that patch and my bursts would have been a lot more damage. That shit was ass since when I saw we got like 50.5% it kinda felt like my fault since i was playing the weaker job on the raid tier with the thightest DPS check in the expansion. Saying that 500 dps difference is destorying DPS balance is kind of an overstatement when the DPS check this tier is doable for everyone. If this was Endwalker that might have been true that 500 dps is a lot but DPS deal like 22000+ Damage nowdays it like 2%~ give or take. They changed so many potencies at once before savage dropped that this was bound to happen. Let's just hope 7.08 fixes the problems with weaker jobs and buffs them up.
Yeaah you right on this tbh. I wish SE would balance more often and change the meta a bit more often personally, it would keep the game more interesting. Dropping balance patches on savage release is something I will never really understand tbh, its really weird to do that on a tier release. You made me rethink my opinion on dmg by difficulty with your response. I think for VPR right now its just that it feels unfair to every other melee with being the highest and by far easiest
I agree with this all 100%. Viper losing the Dread mechanic is what made me decide against using it last minute before Savage. I know it's probably doing better overall, but I genuinely dislike how easy it is now. Yes, it required a lot of maintenance before- but it was a "high execution, high reward" class. Now it's "simon says, high reward," and that's just depressing. Awakening is pretty easy to maintain since you know to use it for your burst windows; and since Serpent's Ire gives you a free cast instead of Awakening instead of giving 50 meter, theres no real risk of overcapping unless you time something awkwardly or have downtime to misalign the rotation. Aside from that, it has what I believe is hands down the _best_ melee disengage option in the form of Uncoiled Fury and just making sure to burn one before capping so you can save them for disengages is the only other resource you need to keep an eye on now. The buffs are easier than ever to keep active now too since you have nothing else you really need to pay attention to. Its sad because Viper is genuinely really, really fun to play. It's a great class and the concept is awesome and unique. But I think making it easier by removing a core mechanic wasn't the step they should have taken.
It was easy before the change, really. Gnash was just an annoyance and would of been if fight design like M2 and strayborough is the direction theyre going with for DT encounters. Like I previously mentioned (look at my other comment) , I and many others were worried it was gonna be positional removal. But thankfully that wasn't the case.
@@Mexu-k9e That was my concern, too; that they were going to make the job easier by removing some of the positional requirements. I personally enjoy the more difficult jobs where you have to pay attention and be involved. Having a higher skill threshold is nice; but as it stands right now, Viper feels easy to pick up and play. As long as you keep in mind to alternate between rear and flank during your combos; or simply remember that "Swiftskin" actions always are/lead into rear attack, and "Hunter" actions are/lead into flanks; the job plays itself. Viper definitely feels like it has an edge in the M2S case right now. Alarm Pheromes (and even Spirited Charge) can be extremely annoying for uptime; while Viper has Uncoiled Fury to stand back and make the mechanic super easy to resolve while keeping damage up for most of it. Trying to greed M2S with Samurai so I didn't have to spam "Enpi" was perhaps the greatest challenge of the entire tier so far.
Unrelated to viper but more of job balancing as a whole the balancing of jobs this expansion and EW has been jarring to me. MCH doesn't offer enough dps to justify not bringing DNC or BRD yet it sits in limbo with the range tax when it should be in the mix of lower melee. The same goes for summoner which is hit with raise tax and what seems to be range tax because of how easy it is while simultaneously doing less than a MCH and even RDM and having none of the group utility of a RDM or a PCT. RDM doesn't have to waist its swift cast on raise like summoner, Summoner doesnt have a heal that scales with its stat like RDM, and summoner doesnt have any party mit like RDM and PCT yet it sits in a spot where bards are pulling hairs from its ass cheeks. They sit here and make the easiest melee the best dps in the game and then punish the other easy jobs for being easy to the point where they are weaker than jobs with superior utility and support.
"9 seconds of uptime" its more like 6 or 7 if you hold all of them and have better gear but that's not always optimal and rarely will you hold all 3. There's a bit that can be done on viper to optimize when you are doing reawaken or uncoiled fury. Viper is the least punishing to make mistakes or die. Viper is just the best designed melee right now, all the others feel like shit to play. It is ok, stop saying it isn't. The other jobs should follow suit in streamlining process. Formerly I mained ninja, and while I loved that job, mudra bugs and the kit changes have turned me off from it. So it's not like I can't play a class with a higher skill requirement, but a lot of my damage relied on the party not being dogshit at the game, on viper I don't need my party to get the most out of my job. Also 90th percentile is a crazy cherry picked selection of data. Square does not balance everything around the top 10% of players, arguably they only ever balance ultimates around them. And let's be honest here, the top 5% of players are usually having the party sandbag for parse runs. But that data does not account for the skill floor. Square has been changing ff14 to be "accessible" and easier for new players to get into, and part of that is going to include making the jobs not clunky to play. Unfortunately, other melees compared to viper are extraordinarily clunky to play at the moment. Viper isn't hard, but it is busy, and I think that it has an appropriate balance that should set the standard for jobs in the future. It will probably have a small nerf in the future when they nerf picto as well.
If every single job would be like Viper I probably would not play anymore tbh. It's not engaging enough for what I would like classes to be so, I kindly have to disagree its the best designed melee.
@@ek9750 See reaper (supposedly one of the best designed jobs) having built in communio drift. That shit is clunky. See machinist clipping and spamming, shit is clunky. Ninja mudra bugs, summoner's garuda phase summon being worthless.
@@HiImFox Everyone forgets how braindead samurai and red mage were on release, and how they frontloaded so much damage they could rip aggro from tanks, and if the tank was a warrior diversion wasn't even enough to save you. Reaper was also cracked on launch and it got nerfed down. But now the scouting gear job has a slightly overtuned release and everyone loses their minds.
@@HiImFox You missed the part where I mentioned casual players. The type of people that can't think beyond a single button push from a mobile game. SE has to think about the game from a business perspective, first and foremost. More people playing the game because "new job" means better numbers for them. What you find dumbed-down might be someone else's complexity. Broaden your viewpoint beyond the raid mindset and you'll see the "why" of when they make changes to jobs.
@@Avenal059 than can just make jobs interesting. not everything has to be homogenized slop because someone cant read tooltips or do good damage. if theyre a casual they wont worry about optomization regardless, so why design with them in mind in the first place? theyre gonna do bad damage whether the job plays itself or not, so why make people who like the deep parts of combat suffer. literally look at summoner players.
I dont see any reason to insult casual players by claiming "they cant think beyond a single button push from a mobile game". I cherrish the casual gamer more than the hardcore players. Yet, job design will never be made in mind with casual, nor with hardcore players. Its made with the average player who does general battle content raging from normal modes to ex trials probably. The game is not balanced around the top 1% nor is it around the bottom 1%. If someone has no interest in learning battle classes, releasing easier ones won't change it. Their goal was not to release a class catered towards casuals, viper pretty clearly is a test alongside pictomancer for a change in how GCDs work to remove button bloat. Their change in 7.05 made the class this easy and it was harder on initial release as I mentioned. If someone struggles playing XIV, theres something they can do, which is put in effort and improve. Not every single piece of content needs to be handed to you. Im also quite confident in my viewpoint on this. Just because I happen to raid does not exclude me from understand that SE is a business that wants to make money. Otherwise I would probably cry about how boring the raid tier was and that I want more hard battle content, not necessarily make a 20 min yapping video about a class that I perceive as fun, yet too easy and too rewarding.
i just wish easy classes had less damage, every viper main thinking they are gods of pve, yet the humble ninja and bard are the real gamers. SE should give incentive for playing harder jobs. Yet the easy ones all top FFlogs
i'm commenting after your FFLOGS segment. If you ask me, i think they locked themselves with how they design jobs they take in account How easy it is to perform+raid buff or not ?+ the role (melee,phys range or caster) this is way too much criteria to balance anything properly, Viper should be lower than even dancer or bard if we take in with their logic. I think they should just stop trying to please every one and have clear categories of DPS.
I dont know if there is a lot of structure behind their balancing process tbh lol, melees seems currently strongest and the rest does not feel like it makes a lot of sense. Why are VPR and SAM the strongest melees but BLM and MCH not the strongest casters then? juist as en example. I think balancing by difficulty should always be the way to go
@@HiImFox they should indeed only taking job difficulty into account and nothing else. that way they could give more than cosmetic skills and some new big explosion button every expansion since SHB. coming from Heavensward. i was still happy to play SHB jobs because i thought they were about to go from that base and sort of ''bring innovation'' each expansion as they did prior. but i was dissapointed so far.
I know this might be wishful thinking because so many of my friends disagree with me. I feel like the harder a job design/kit is to execute properly especially in a raid setting should be rewarded with "higher" DPS. Be rewarded by playing that said "harder" class well. On the other spectrum jobs that are designed to be the casual/easy job can do well in any content but won't provide DPS at the same level of a class designed to be "harder". Think the difference between NIN and MNK for DPS numbers. Otherwise, if easy job = top DPS why play the others? I do think the class is going to get balanced but my point stands. Giving a Job identity is another huge aspect I think will do some good also!
I feel very similiar to you. The concept of high risk high reward is something I personally enjoy and I would like to see it more in XIV. I think we partially have this logic applied with melees being high on the damage charts by having to care about uptime, positionals and in some cases even cast times, while phys ranged have none of that, therefore being on the lower end of dps. And exactly as you said, if an easy class can provide more damage, why (besides out of personal fun and interest) would you have any reason to play a difficult job?
@@HiImFox Yes!! I get so much flak for having this opinion. People want things easy but think it's unfair to be below someone who is doing the actual effort in trying to get better. Makes me happy to know that not everyone feels that way. Thanks for the response :)
This is why I’m happy that bard is doing better than the other phys ranged, despite having a lot of utility and damage buffs it’s still way harder than the other two to play. In EW there was literally zero reason to bring it because it was far harder than the other two to play optimally AND it brought less damage, this just feels healthier imo.
Ever since they did the SMN changes going into EW my mindset has changed on job design and damage. To be honest I just want something that is fun to play and can do competitive damage. With SMN they made it extremely easy but gutted the jobs feel and overall its enjoyability to play at least for me. With Viper, it is incredibly easy but it is also incredibly fun to play and the reward from playing it correctly is profound. I've played the Hardest jobs in this game and I feel that if that's what you like you should absolutely do so. Viper is easy sure but should it be the lowest melee?? I don't think so. I've played MMO's for a majority of my life and if I've learned anything its that people no matter the difficulty at the high end will simply just play the best classes/jobs suitable to clear the content quickly. Granted, this does limit the pool in the current case where viper is ahead of the other melee jobs. I do not think the fact that it is easy should play a part in it doing more damage. Its fun, active, and flexible and that makes it desirable in the first place the addition that its currently outpacing other melee especially Samurai is only relative at at 90th+ percentile because it doesn't really impact anyone else. With all of that being said likely they will bring other jobs to line with viper or otherwise. I will state that the gap between SAM and VPR is considerable but not completely busted and I feel a bit overdramatic in your analysis of the data presented. The correlation of job difficulty and dmg output is in the end a personal choice and someone who can't play the harder jobs should have a strong option to them. I like hard jobs and understand the reward when you execute the rotation perfectly and end up on top but not everyone is like this and should we design jobs around this mindset? Im hoping either VPR gets a potency nerf or the other jobs can receive a small buff after they've had time to look at the tier. What I would hate to see it VPR getting losing 3-4 spots just because it's easy.
I do think you have some good points in your answer, thanks for that. It is a very difficult decision on "who do you balance the game around" because well, a large part of the playerbase is indeed more casual which will never even care about the top damage output in the first place. The question is, would you play a job you do not enjoy purely cause it does more damage over a job you do enjoy while it might be lower? My answer will always be a no to that. I picked up monk, it is performing really well right now but I also would have played it if it were lower in damage. I still believe that difficulty should play a role in damage output. A job with lower difficulty ceiling should provide less damage or at least be on part when played properly with a job that has a higher ceiling. Otherwise the other job would technically seen always on paper be useless as it requires much more effort to have the same dps. I also did over dramatize the difference, I think It's because I a little jealous of all the shit viper got especially uptime wise compared to my monk... :D
i leveled this job because balancing 3 buffs seemed really fun, and it was. keeping all 3 buffs up for double reawaken was interesting, now the job just kinda plays itself and does too much damage lmao. i will stick to reaper, hopefully they dont remove deaths design from the game
I do not like VPR at all, I like being able to setup abilities similarly across all melee, not being able to set it up similarly with the other melee action bars feel bad. Now having to glue my eyes to the either the 2 buttons or watch the job guage in order to see what ender I need use feels bad too.
I also don't like Viper, but I feel upset that Viper has no damage mitigation or self healing. There's nothing else to Viper not even dot management from poison venom abilities which I thought would be a part of the kit and the lore. I'm disappointed 😞
The worst part is that not even dreadwinder or coils are meant to be saved for burst phases. double awakening takes up the entire raid buff window, and will give you 2 coils to use after the fact, so you literally have no real resources to save now that buffs are up to 60 seconds and noxious gnash doesn't have to be maintained. Class was actually gutted in 7.05
I have a Viper in my static and i am occasionally envious how easy he can keep uptime with his ranged Uncoiled attacks, but damn am i glad i got the chance to play Reaper again this expansion. Due to group composition i was stuck on Summoner for the last 2 raid tiers in Endwalker and while it was nice at first not having to think too much and have all of my focus purely for mechanics it grew boring very, very quickly. Now after leveling Viper to 100 i already feel the same... it's WAY too barebones and simple for my tastes. Not that Reaper is all that difficult to play either, but it's way more fun and engaging for me.
I originally thought Viper would have venom dots and you could literally watch the health bar of enemies just melt. This seemed reasonable with Viper being based on a poisonous snake. But there's no poison ......
Vipers aren't poisonous, they're venomous. Also funny thing, that venoms used to be ninja's thing back in the day and now there's a new class built about them.
@Gemini_Godhand yeah idk why either, in fact one thing I loved about SHB was snapshotting dots felt really good and now all dots feel like sqe is on a personal mission to get them out of the game
Viper before the changes was very easy, but it was still fun with its high APM that made up for it a lot. It had enough room for some optimization that it kept it engaging enough, and with more additions in the next expansion it could actually come to have a decent skill ceiling to make it more compelling to min-max. The fact as little as it was that they STILL took it away is just such a massive joke. I really don't get SE design philosophy. You WANT jobs to have a skill ceiling to try and strive towards to keep a job compelling for the playerbase. Even many of the casual players will WANT some way to express their skill playing a job to show up others and make their time playing the job feel more rewarding. In a game with casual content and then harder content you want players to strive to get better and the players will generally want to over time go for harder content (while not all will go to ultimate content, there are many who do eventually dip their feet into Extremes or even some savage after they played the game for some time).
Hoenstly the job is overtuned but I also don't think they should balance the jobs based on how hard they are to play since it's PVE, yeah there is an inbalance of effort between a VPR and SAM but at the end of a day it's not really like anyone is actually getting fucked over because of that fact. Like you might think because viper is so easy that you should just play it over any other melee for that fact but some people just play jobs because of personal prefrence. There is always gonna be a job some people consider "useless" but it really doesn't matter when it comes to clearing if people are actually hitting buttons. but i will say saving coils for uptime is actually just broken LOL
But then there would be no logical reason to ever play anything else. It's fine if you like to play the easier jobs but please do not expect to perform the same at the skill ceiling. Other jobs just would not have a place in the game anymore. There is no preference to working harder for less, or the same reward. It's just an idealistic way of thinking for someone who does not want their job penalized.
but balance like this matters only to the top 5% anyway who mostly play for efficiency and not any other reason. in that domain it is important to have a healthy balance
The class is cool, the kit is good, everything is fine on this class, some people might prefer easy/flexible gameplay, some prefer hard/strict rotations, its good to have an easy option. You make it sounds like viper is kinda problematic because it has good disconnect option, its other classes that lack a better designed option for the disconnect moments. The only downside is that it does slightly more damage than it should, if it would do similar-ish damage as the other melees, it would be fine disregarding how easy/hard all melees are.
@@YasuBlackstoneshouldn’t be dealing more dmg than blm or samurai with how brain off this job is, but I suppose potencies and stuff can always be adjusted. I’d say it being equal or slightly below samurai would be fair.
Keep in mind, often when people refer to damage they mean overall damage, including damage provided by buffs. Absolutely a non-buff class should have more personal damage, but overall damage needs to be equal or lower in vipers case
The issue is having everything all at once: - Being marginally easier - Having 9 seconds of free uptime from range - Doing more damage than any other class currently, which is partially due to free uptime. The difference in difficulty of the melees should not be this big. Sure, some can be easier and others harder but viper is so much easier its a bit of a joke. Ontop of that having uptime tools is not the issue, but having it for 9 seconds while no other melee class can perform this is just criminal. If you give uptime to all of them, it would be different obviously. And lastly, the damage output being too high due to it being too simply and getting free-uptime is the issue, it should be below every other melee dps (in rdps) with how much easier it is. Probably even below some casters. So yeah, i mentioned this even in the video, being easy is not the easy, its all the stuff on top of that causing it to be issues. If every class in xiv would be this level of easy i honestly dunno if i would play the game
The issue was keeping the debuff on the enemy. If for any reason you had to not reapply the debuff then everything felt bad. To apply it was part of your 123 and dreadwinder. It only gave 24s and a reapply of 40s. That wasn't even long enough to get your burst in. If you had a fight that made you back off the boss then your behind in your rotation and your buff and debuff fell off. That felt awful. There should never be a quote on quote hardcore job. All that does is alienate a player base. I use Vrp is savage and it feels fine. The pre patch vpr was doable but annoying. If majority of the player base felt it waa a problem the it makes sense to fix it. It was 1 of the 2 flagship jobs for the xpac. Dushing out a product that only less than 30% of the player base like is not good. This is coming from someone who only wanted a debuff increase on gnash to 24s to 30 up to 60. Them removing it and adding the dmg to hitting your positionals is a smart move. Changing the 123 help players not tunnel vision on the hotbar. The job is fine as it is right now. This is like saying old smn was peak and we should go back to that. Even though few player played amn in its old state. A job that is played by mainly peo players and little casual is still a bad job. It means it's poor job design. Even back in 2.0 when jobs had individuality. Player would discriminate base on that jobs uniqueness. Mnk was in a bad spot due to it doing blunt dmg. Brd and drg was king because of the piercing bonus. Pld and Nin with slashing and a blm for dmg with mage balled. If you main mnk you were shunned. Things shafted like this till stormblood. The job could pretty much play with any comp. So when I hear about job being homogenized. I think back to how bad people were when it wasnt there.
@@HiImFox By the time you got reawaken you had about 15ish seconds to do burst. Most double reawaken so you had to activly delay burst to reapply debuff or just do the burst and lose out on dmg. You could get the debuff to 40s at the start and avoid this but now you are not in line with everyone else 2min CDs. That debuff also had an issue with falling off. If the boss mech had you off the boss then that debuff was pretty much going away. Its was the only melee that was that way. To keep it up you had to have your rotation up 100% of the time even during downtime. Rpr had 1 button the could just click and reapply, but Vpr needed it to be done via a 123 combo or dreadwind combo both of which only gave you 24s. It was doable but it was annoying. I was hoping for a buff on the time but they moved it to uping the smg on pos skill. I main and raid Vpr, I played it in both pre patch and current. I know its pros, cons and pain points. That debuff was a limiting factor, dreadwinder for lower skilled players is a big learning curve, and the 123 combo takes a bit to get use to. All of which was fixed and dreadwinders positional being monitored for now as its mostly just a movement skill check.
i think you said it correctly without realizing it "i play this when i dont want to focus and just hit buttons when they light up and play casually" that is the entire point of the job. this job is 100% for the bad player who somehow cannot play this already easy as fuck game. they WANT to make jobs that are easy as fuck, that take no brain to play, but yield a fuck ton of damage and results. its been a trend, rpr isnt hard, dnc isnt hard, vpr isnt hard, smn was made to be braindead, honestly neither is pct really but it takes more planning than its release brother. this is the direction theyre going because it probably yields more money
Im not sure if i want to agree because while yes, difficulty of class design has decreased massively since HW, the diff between RPR/DNC and VPR is still significant. Their idea was to make all jobs easier to make harder content (TOP/DSR) imo which obviously hurt job identity but, I do believe that the very casual player does not really care about damage as long as they are having fun and the class looks cool to them
This is ultimately - in the end - a BUSINESS decision. They used VIPER as the poster child of marketing. it got people super excited, it got old players to return, it got new players in.. VIPER is the highest number played job in the entire game at this point. that means even 20-30% of the viper player base = a lot of subscription $$$ what happens when the job you sold to make a lot of new and returning subscribers and $$$ is actually challenging to play properly? it simply made business sense to tone down the job's difficulty because of the sheer number of people who wanted to keep playing the job VS having to tell these players to play a different job. they were sold on viper. they want to play viper - or ELSE they might unsub. Bad for Business that's why they did it. it's not rocket science. it's suffering from the success of your marketing and not wanting to risk subscriptions revenue. We optimizers/ultimate raiders are not the deciding factor here. we are so TINY in population vs the casual/midcore player base. as much as I didn't like the changes to viper, I want the game to succeed. so i just moved to a different job and let the majority have their fun.
I dont think you know much about the devs if you think this change was purely about money lol. Plenty of ppl liked it before the changes. And even if some didnt, most ppl arent going to quit or not buy an entire expansion over not liking one new job.
@@omegaxtrigun I'm bringing my thoughts in as someone who was in the gaming and media industry where the entire business model was subscription revenue. thanks for your opinion though. have a great day
See this is a statement that offers 0 contribution to the topic at hand or the discussion. I think everyone knows XIV is not the hardest game and never will be, that does not exclude any discourse about difficulty of the jobs. But thanks man, now I know every job is easy, appreciate it man.
Difficulty of a job should NEVER determine the damage ceiling. EVER. Can people stop saying that please.... if that is the case high end players are basicly forced to play the hard jobs everytime because they do more damage instead of the one they enjoy in terms of class fantasy. If you choose the more difficult job it should be a choice of challenging yourself and not to squeeze out that bonus 0.2%.
Alright, I understand your point, how should in your opinion balancing be done? Cause right now dont you have the issue that you still play wtv is at the top which in return means not allowing you to play your fantasy class?
![[FFXIV] M3S Guide - AAC Light-heavyweight M3](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/H1qdLOVULo4/mqdefault.jpg)
I think there's a huge divide in the community between people who enjoy the whiteroom theorycrafting of rotations and the people who just wanna get in there with intuitive skills. Personally, I think it's okay to have both but the developers and the majority of the JP community largely falls in the latter camp. The JP community and the developers are in unison with the idea that your job should just flow naturally and the challenge should come from responding to what the encounter is asking of you. Rather than thinking about dumbing down or how skill expression is lost, I think it'd better serve you to examine it from the lens of getting your attention off your job bars or spreadsheets and into the encounter design. Viper is just a harbinger of all jobs going this way
nice take which i totally understand
As someone who came from WoW I like Viper alot, I was fine with how it was before this change but yeah.. Getting our eyes off the hotbars is huge. End of the day Viper is still much more complicated than any class in WoW so im not worried.
@@OnlyBeysthis is. a joke right? every class in xiv is a builder spender, including this. every single job in xiv is a rogue/feral druid/paladin with a coat of paint on it
But your job should flow intuitively. Also, if you enjoy difficult jobs then play those? But this idea that everyone has to suffer so you can choose a difficult job and feel it worthwhile is ridiculously silly. If the only enjoyment you get out of a difficult job isn't mastery but numbers, then you don't like difficult jobs, you like big numbers and big barriers of entry so your big numbers feel extra special and fill the black hole where your self-esteem oughta be. Either way, we should not be turning games into jobs (rather than what they are... entertainment) simply because vocal minorities in gaming communities want to push their power-trip on the entire base.
@@Theheadless1858 But then you're asking for non braindead jobs to be penalised. They'll *always* perform worse at an equal skill level unless they're mastered. Mastery should not be the bar. It should be the goldpot at the end of the road, where your efforts are rewarded. Doesn't need to be by some stupidly large margin, but there has to be some merit to not challenging yourself as little as possible. And since you're already inadvertedly okay with the braindead jobs being outright better because there's simply no failstates that lower your throughput, why not reward those who master their jobs by a similar margin? Viper doesn't need to invalidate all the other melees.
You know whats not easy… the tooltips for this job.
LOL yeah this is probably one of the most overexplained jobs in any MMO for how easy it is to learn and play well
BRO when i first unlocked this class I dumped it instantly cause I didnt wanna read a bible LMAO
I'm not really against changing certain 123 rotations to one button, since I gets rid of button bloat and it's not like you can really mess it up since on keyboard it's just 1,2,3 or controller it's just hold down trigger and press 3 buttons. My issue comes in with not adding more to the kit to make the job more interesting.
Exactly, it would make room for more skills in the future as well
I don't really think the debuff was a big win personally; the coil generator moves also applied the debuff, which I think is what led to them removing it, since it ended up with the two-sword class only using one of its "sword" lead-ins a fraction of the time when compared to the other. It's certainly easier without the debuff, but I do think it better delivers on the gameplay thematics of "you have two swords and you switch between them" a bit better when you're switching *every* combo.
Fighting for my life for uptime in M4 as Samurai.
Viper- “Haha uncoiled go brrr”
Do maths on the fly calculating how many fillers you need due to forced downtime. Viper - Haha what?
Yeah, but PLD is the exact same way right now on the tank side. Almost WAR level survivability on single targets and actually has good ranged options. I mean, it's burst window is ALL ranged attacks.
MNK meanwhile not having a ranged attack or any good kind of backdash/jump so i just run away... stand there... and wait... :)
@@MrSurfboy95 time for mediation xD
As a class, I already love viper because it's a nod to Final Fantasy IX and how Zidane played, but it's also satisfying watching my character rip and tear with his animations. But for how easy the class is to play, I agree that it does too much damage lmao, especially after the debuff was removed
This is my favorite job in Dawntrail, but I have to agree that the damage it does vs. the easiness of the job is kinda nutty. Going to enjoy it while it lasts though lol
absolutely LOL enjoy it man
I like how we flow between the two main combos now but I don’t think they needed to get rid of the debuff. I could have seen them keeping the debuff on vicewinder, at least you’d have something to keep track of other than Serpent’s Ire every two minutes.
I get the feeling that Viper was suppose to be more of a speed DPS like Monk kinda was.
I just...really dislike the dodge. I wish it was like Dancer's where you can dodge around freely instead of having to target something. I say this as a Dragoon and Reaper main, who both have dodges that can get them wherever they want to go. I switched to Viper and the moment I realized the dodge was target only, my whole entire outlook on the class diminished.
Interesting, I feel like the non-targeted dashes often feel way clunkier and harder to use since you cant determine their distance while a targeted dash will always get you to your target
@@HiImFox It comes down to tastes really. Like I said I main classes that have non-target dodges, so gauging the distance and the angle is like second nature at this point, whereas I dislike having to target an ally if I want to dodge out of the way of an attack. That feels clunky to me personally, and restricts movement.
Honestly, any non-damaging dash should be like Ninja's Shukuchi. Then again, I play with a mouse and keyboard.
@@soulechelon2643 assuming you're on mouse and keyboard, just make a mouseover macro for dashing to teammates. it's faster and doesn't change your target.
@@StripedSooner That doesn't fix the problem of having to rely on a teammate to dodge. And I would much rather have a dodge that allows me to go where *I* want, not where my teammates might be. That sort of freedom cannot be fixed by a macro.
After watching some other videos about this job, I thought it was too complicated for me. Then I came across this video...
I think you made some good points. I do think UF is absolutely gross damage wise. I disagree with nerfing the job since you're just switching who's on top without dealing with what makes it better than the others. I also disagree that rotational difficulty = damage. Black Mage is still rotationally one of the easiest classes in the game, but people largely agree that playing it is still complicated due to trying to keep that simple rotation going. I do think Viper is the best solo PF class by far since you don't really have to play into raid buffs to do decently. Viper is the easiest melee to play by far. I agree with that. It is also the squishiest melee as well. If we're talking about the easiest job overall Summoner absolutely has that crown, but I don't think that's why its damage is low. We can thank the raid buff and raise ability for that. Pure DPS just need to do damage which is what Viper is doing right now. It should do more than RPR, DRG and NIN. SAM should be buffed to be better in full uptime and slightly weaker in less. All of this is my opinion though, so feel free to disagree.
i actually kind of like the design idea of VPR not having any damage boost cooldowns, i despise the 2 min burst meta and raidwide buffs should be removed from the game so it kind of feels like they made VPR with 8.0 intentions in mind if they actually decide to remove that god awful meta when the job changes come then, so in that accord i actually really like the design, however the simplicity is killing it for me, i have not unlocked VPR yet and i dont intend to for a while since i just do not care, it kind of sucks that we got another really easy melee right after we got RPR (i didn't even want another melee, i wanted new tank or healer) but the flexibility of the job is atleast nice if nothing else.
its just absurd that SE again have no idea what they actually want a job to be, the reason why the damage debuff was removed was because the job was too busy (note the BUSY not HARD), jobs like GNB are busy, but its not hard, that is why they enforce the continuation on it constnatly even tho it does not suit a tank at all, RPR is busy during burst, NIN is busy during burst, all the jobs are busy during bursts atleast, some jobs are even outside bursts like MNK somewhat, so the reasoning behind the VPR change and removal of the debuff make no sense, job was never hard but people just complained that "there is too much to do" well so does every job except SMN and such that are just mind numblingly boring, but again SE listened the wrong people, it definetly wasnt the midcore or hardcore players who wanted the job to be easier/less busy, it was definetly again the casuals who didn't wanna bother actually learning the job
A new tank wouldn't add anything of value.
They can't even design the current 4 right.
All of them are just slightly weaker versions of Warrior with the same dps rotation.
123 builders with a 4 spender.
A weaker version of inner release. That will then let you use your 4 spender for free 3 times.
3 ogcd's that line up with the burst.
A 1 or 2 minute heavy hitting GCD that also lines up with the burst.
A slightly worse equivalent of Blood whetting.
A slightly worse version of Holmgang.
A slightly worse version of Shake it off.
Let's not forget that Nascent is the only short mit that you can actually double dip either.
And whenever a tank finally does something better or different than Warrior, bald man and his community cries until it's all streamlined and everyone defaults into Warrior again.
The only plus side to adding a new tank is that we'd have 4 different ways of looking better than Warrior instead of 3.
I'd rather have them rework certain tanks into dps because that's the only engaging role left.
@@casualduck1580 lol. a simple 2 seconds of looking at logs shows that warrior is 3rd best tank right now at best. war/gnb/pld all have similar play, so no, not everyone is defaulting to warrior - and pld even has more clears on the pinnacle fight. drk is the semi "unique" tank and has by far the least people playing it, because being "unique" isn't a good thing in this game, despite your best efforts to ignore reality. your entire premise is completely bogus.
the fact that you think the bald bogeyman has the power to make changes in the game and alter how the dev team thinks is rather hilarious, though.
@@StripedSooner If you're still comparing dps to determine which tank is the best when they're all doing the same you're part of the problem. Their dps is the same. Utility is all that matters now. If doing 0.000001% less group damage mattered then War wouldn't see more than double the pickrate of the ''highest'' Adps tank.
I think it's great that this job doesn't have a lot *thinking* to do and it's more about correctly using the buttons that have lit up *fast enough* to keep up with the speed it should be doing.
I have actively pushed the *wrong* button in the combo chain because paying attention to my buttons/gauges at the same time as reading a mechanic, both of which need to happen quick, can sometimes just cause my brain to hiccup. I have accidentally used Vicewinder and then *forgot* and used Reawaken because Serpent's Ire was ready to go. I have accidentally pushed my oGCDs in the wrong order because of either fatfinger or ping or me just *going too fast*.
The *SPEED* of VPR is what makes the job difficult compared to other jobs that have complexity in how their burst works, and it's great that we have that for people who want that simple speed.
Also, NIN doesn't care about melee uptime *during their burst*. I know you try to discount NIN here when you talk about Rattling Coil being ridiculous, but remember that Rattling Coil is VPR's hardest-hitting button (outside of burst window) and we have literally no reason NOT to push it most of the time. VPR has to actively think ahead and remember to hold it for when it's needed.
NIN on the other hand can start their Mug/Trick Attack in melee, disconnect from melee, and then for stay disconnected for every burst button that actually matters. Hyosho Ranryu > 2x Raiton > 3 justsu from TCJ > even Phantom Kamaitachi (if it's up that time). Yes, at that point, no more ranged buttons - but you can spam daggers without wasting Raiju stacks.
Until VPR was released, NIN was absolutely the *BEST* melee for fights that usually screw over melee. I'd be sitting there laughing my ass off at the other melee DPS the whole time.
damn what if the downtime does not align with nins burst? guess ima do my mudra and that's it
quite the well-picked arguement there chief
@@HiImFox - Kind of a weird argument to make. It's almost like you've never raided on NIN.
Whenever NIN has downtime that forces them out of melee, the priority goes PK > Mudra > Knife throwing, assuming it's 100% impossible to get into melee on the target.
It's a DPS upgrade even out of burst because it's better to not waste Mudra.
I've yet to really see it happen that way, though. What you present is a purely hypothetical situation that *just doesn't happen*
The raid devs nearly always make major mechs happen at the 2-minute mark specifically to force players to adapt to it.
Look, your whole argument in this whole video is just plain dumb. At the end of the day, every GCD you're pushing a keybind, and that's all there is to it. That's true for all dps - melee or not. Pretending that going "OH NO I HAVE TO PUSH 5 INSTEAD OF JUST ANOTHER 2" somehow means a job is harder or more complicated is purely 100% ridiculous and shows that you're overthinking it.
You're still pushing the same number of buttons (outside of different jobs having different GCDs, which would actually mean that VPR and NIN push more buttons than the other melee do because we push them more often)
Skill in FFXIV does not come from doing your rotation. Skill comes from boss mechanics.
Rotation is a non-issue and takes zero effort regardless of job or number of keybinds. Frankly, every DPS feels the exact same to play.
Anybody who can't cut it at their rotation isn't bad at their job, they're bad at *gaming as a whole*
@@DrakeWurrum your last paragraph is something i can absolutely not understand at all
Some of your skill expression absolutely comes from the classes you play and how you have to adjust to different scenarios that are presented to you. Otherwise we could just all take a dummy press 1111111 and only do boss mechanics
Yeah the balancing of jobs rn is so off, idk why anyone would ever play machinist over viper cuz even if you just stand still hitting the boss and hit like half of your positionals you'd still outdamage them. I think the ranged tax is too much and there should be a better ranking of jobs based on their utility and ease of use.
Melees should always be at a higher bracket of damage due to the fact that they have to deal with uptime and positionals. Ranged should be on the lower bracket bc of 100% uptime and freedom of movement. Casters should stand somewhere between the two bc they are trading some freedom of movement for damage and needing positional awareness.
what percent of damage is the difference between the top job and bottom?
Looking at 90th percentile, the difference between viper and Mch is around 3k which is around 15%. Take it with a grain of salt though
Absolutely agree with your philosophy of balance. Its ironic that youre probably currently gaining more damage by running double melee (one being viper) and double caster over one machinist LOL even taking the 1% mainstat loss into account!
I Think, Viper should be on Top with Samu. They have nothing else, just pure damage. And viper doesnt even has a shield or something else to protect themselves, thats why Viper can have uptime, even from range if you plan it right. And if you look at how many parses are out there, waaaay more ppl playing viper and gearing it, so yeah if the best melee players on the world play viper, you dont have much to compare. lets wait until all ppl have BIS and go into the fight with other jobs
Personal shields should never ever be taken into account when balancing for damage
@@HiImFox not but it's a reason Viper has UF.
Reaper for example can take 1 more hit staying closer to the boss if it's proximity dmg. More uptime + heal for every one after
So since Viper is a glass canons and can't provide anything like this, he need something different.
Viper damage is crazy but so is picto
And even samurai gets closer now, since more ppl playing this job.
@@elohimttv5806 Pictomancer requieres cast uptime. comits to almost 4 sec motifs cast. some knowledge of the fight to keep uptime (like black mage). comparing picto and viper you already wasted your turn argumenting lol. you're insulting picto mains
@@goropanckechi3028 with EVERY Job u have to know the fight and when u can greed for 1 more gcd. even with viper you have to know, when u need your UF so you can use them before overstacking. Picto too has many instant casts and can hold his Hammer Skill for sequences you have to move more. this game isnt that hard at all
Absolutely love viper, but honestly mainly because of the aesthetic. being a WoW player since vanilla and maining rogue, i mained ninja when I first started playing FFXIV, then I loved playing reaper. and when FINALLY the duel sword "rogue" like job viper was released i was so excited! i am 1000% maining viper right now. but I agree with u so much. especially since they took away noxious gnash. there is nothing to manage. just hit ur buttons and things die. now the job is super fun and i still very much love just ALWAYS pressing something. but compared to ninja, and even reaper. seems like something is missing with the rotational challenge within the job. i try not to complain because I don't want them to change too much. but even taking away noxious gnash i think was such a big mistake. least we had something to manage, and not having that up was a huge dps loss and was very punishing (and again wasnt hard to keep up but still. easy to get lost in pressing buttons and forget to reapply before a reawaken window, WHICH WAS GOOD!!!). now. who cares press buttons lol. anyways rant over. viper is Dope AF. but needs some real tuning for sure. positional imo are whatever. give viper a positional for every single skill. it wouldn't change anything.
reaper is just a significantly slower version of viper though lol. they both have similar functions of their rotation and how they build up to their bursts, viper just hits buttons twice as often to do it. i want to love reaper, but it's so boring. viper alleviates the boredom with fast tempo at least.
@@StripedSooner i agree with you. i look at reaper more like a bezerker or a barbarian feel. slow but powerful. lol but i agree viper i feel like im always super saiyan lolol
its super fun to play and also aesthetically pleasing absolutely
I don’t think it should be the top dps but I don’t mind if a couple jobs are easy to play like summoner (even if they do relatively high dps). There are other jobs to fulfill that difficulty/complexity = dps role. Add a little more complexity somewhere and slight potency nerfs then it’s cool to me
I think its actually good to have an easier melee class in the game to give more options for players who like melee but maybe don't want to play something difficult. Between reaper and viper you have two easy options now with different playstyles
its also okay to play harder jobs and not play them perfectly
To give Viper some credit, I'd say Reaper isn't THAT far from it difficulty wise. Perhaps a small notch above Viper but the two of them are pretty similiar. New MNK likely on the same grounds of Reaper given how massively they nerfed down the skill ceiling from the class from being the hardest melee down to being on the easy side.
While Reaper definitely is not the hardest melee, theres a significant difference imo between RPR and VPR. RPR has to plan out his burst by the GCD to fit his double enshroud into Arcane Circle, any wrong GCD means you will lose damage because your perfectio won't fit in or you are missing damage gcds from the first enshroud window. Monk, while once you know what you have to do is not as hard anymore, definitely is confusing to players due to not knowing how to use perfect balance while VPR out of the gates feels obvious on what to do. Unironically any class with a buff is already harder than VPR since vpr never needs to care about playing into it
@@HiImFox reaper straight up just lines up the debuff timer with their raid buff, then hits enshroud with 7 seconds left on the raid buff cd. then you debuff, enshroud gcd, debuff. it never changes, and the timers tell you exactly when and what to do. there is no planning at all lmao. come on, now.
@@StripedSooner i mean i get it, its not HARD but its still more to do than viper lol. You gotta pay attention to your own burst, pool your gauge and any downtime changs things around for you. You gotta make sure to not drop your combo etc. Like I said, its not hard but its definitely harder than viper.
Feel like there's two sides to this even though, I agree that Viper shouldn't do as much damage as it does right now. Yes, there is that part where a job with such and easy rotation should not be dealing such big numbers but then there's the counter to that as it being only damage and no support utility other than feint which all melees have anyway. For a long time now I've seen a lot of Machinist players saying they felt their job should do more damage compared to the other Phys ranged because they have less utility. It's weird that these two jobs are on opposite sides of the dps spectrum when they are both mostly selfish dps and both the easiest in their category to play well.
Before this patch it really felt like you had to go into your 2 minute burst phases methodically in order to make sure your buffs didn’t fall off. I think it’s really been understated by the community how much easier it is to optimize the job with the additional 20 seconds added to your positional buffs. If you had bad planning your buff timers all being 40 seconds meant that you ran the risk of everything falling off in a domino effect and I found that VERY engaging. The job is still flashy and you press buttons the same, but they took the tension/fun out of the job for me personally.
And to elaborate a little further, it makes the buffs on the job feel like a given. You don’t really make an effort to maintain your buffs as of current patch. You apply them and can forget about them. I think this makes Viper far less satisfying to play for anything above casual content.
absolutely agree, like I said its harder to drop them than to keep them up LOL
@tetsugrat8849 it wasn't hard to look at your timer and re-apply the buff if it was less than 20s.
@@StriderZessei you seemed to have missed my point. By that measure I could assume you advocate for the oversimplification of jobs.
You see if you had any interest in job optimization with Viper then you should be aware that you have a goal of fitting 2x ouroboros in every 2minute window following the opener. Sometimes the devs create moments of tension during burst windows or may even require you to break off from the boss so without even getting into uncoiled fury potency, how many rattling coils could you spend between two reawakening combos without dropping a single buff including the positional buffs pre patch? What was typically the best combo starter post burst? Honestly who cares now, just vicewinder post burst now because the devs don’t think the average player is capable of figuring out an optimal solution to maintaining 4 buffs. You could have thought critically but instead you boiled my point down to Maintaining buffs hard, which i don’t agree with in the first place. I found the loop before more engaging than a soulless husk of a melee DPS that has everything auto reapplied on loop without the risk of losing dps.
@tetsugrat8849 when all you talked about in your initial post is maintaining buffs, I assume that's all you were talking about.
i think they should just give it a raid buff nerf its damage put it around reaper lvl there, both were around the same difficulty give or take 1 or half a tier
I was so excited for Viper, even if I didn't know the best rotations, its a new class and I like learning it. These new changes are so strange and seem to dumb down the class, no bleeds, infinite buffs that don't make any sense, might as well just make em perma if they can't fall off, and now everything just combos into each other too? Hoping this is just temporary and they are fine tuning it and will rework it into something more complete.
Compared to how Summoner got slashed into an unrecognizable job in Endwalker, I'd say people are overblowing this situation just a bit w/ Viper. In fights like M2, keeping focus on Gnash was insanely annoying cause of how often melee has to disconnect from the boss in that fight and the first boss in that strayborough dungeon.
If thats the kind of fight design they're gonna be doing, having you constantly in and out while on the move, it may be for the best that it's gone imo. When they mentioned VPR changes, I was worried they were gonna reduce positionals since people were whining about that, and I saw no one really whining about Gnash.
yeah cause no one thought they would be losing gnash but they mentioned positionals
@@HiImFox Yeah, I'm not saying people can't dislike the change don't get me wrong. I just feel like overblowing it into major statements like I've seen people do calling it "brain dead easy now" is not the kind of discussion to be having. It kind of feels like a slight to the SMN mains out there pre-ew who know how that really feels to have a complex job reduced to simon says.
It did truly become braindead easy though unfortunately. I did dip my toes into viper a bit before the changes and i thought it was simple but still had some stuff going on, but post patch for real, nothing really matters.
Regarding SMN I quit right before EW so I didnt really know what happened there i just hear what people say about it. I used to play it a bit in SHB but thats about it
@@HiImFox SMN went from complex dot mage class to "Press Green for Garuda, Good Job!" "Press Yellow for Titan, good job!" "Press Red for Ifrit, good job!" I'm not exaggerating with how much they gutted it in endwalker by saying it in that way, either. So forgive me if after a change like that the VPR change just feels like a nothing burger to me.
@@Mexu-k9e You're comparing horse shit to dogshit.
Both are bad.
It plays like a simple hybrid monk for me so far.
Your HUD is so smol.
New expansion and new class means new overpowered class that is extra simple and massively easy and powerful…..in order to sell the new expansion…. Changes and nerfs incoming in due time….but for now it attracts sales of the new expansion. Every MMO does this. New expansion introduces something completely overtuned or broken and increases sales of the expansion. When things settle down then they will begin small nerfs to the class to balance it with the rest of the jobs. ESO is famous for this each and every expansion whether it be a item or class.
highly doubt they overtune a class for sales
i think most people just buy the game for gameplay, story, aesthetics and not "oh hell ye the new class is broken"
It is baffling to me that the same team made picto and viper. I know it's likely 2 different designers but it's still the 2 new jobs this expac. Picto is so fun, varied, challenging and fleshed out.
Viper on the other hand feels like it has a lvl 50 kit at lvl 100 to me, it seriously feels very barebones, especially now with patch 7.05. The fact that it deals an absolutely absurd amount of damage now that you don't have to micro manage noxious gash and can just reawaken with no real planning going into burst AND you have by far the best melee downtime ranged ability makes every other melee feel like "why am I not playing viper right now?".
The answer to that is, as a former Viper main, it's simply unfun now. I was so happy with playing Viper and it literally kept me playing the game doing EXs and planning to do Savage and stuff as Viper. Then LITERALLY 7.05 happened the day Savage drops, and i immediately dropped it for Samurai.
Viper had just enough going for it before the patch, it was NOT just "press shiny button" even if that's quite literally most of what you do, there's a lot of micro managing, and overall i'd say it's about slightly easier than Reaper. Whatever people who didn't play Viper seriously before 7.05 think Viper was? 7.05 Viper literally IS.
And if you're the type of person who'd simply pick jobs only based on how much damage they do in the meta, frankly, i think you're part of the problem anyways, so fuck those guys.
What SQE has done is essentially made Viper a complete fomo class. If you want other examples of new classes, look at augmentation evoker from wow that literally broke the game on launch
@@ryudhal "And if you're the type of person who'd simply pick jobs only based on how much damage they do in the meta, frankly, i think you're part of the problem anyways, so fuck those guys."
This isn't a problem, this is something you simply have to do if you're doing top-end prog. Do you think world first or any serious proggers give a fuck about how much fun you are having on a job? No. You will pick whatever will secure you the fastest clear. There is nothing wrong with picking a job that is doing well over your personal enjoyment.
You cannot blame players for what is a game design/balancing issue.
I am not that guy, I am a healer main, not a melee main, but I do feel this with WHM/AST. I would have likely gone with WHM this tier, hell, I spent my TOP tome on a WHM cane in EW in prep, but it's balancing is so unbelievably shit right now that playing it over AST feels like absolute garbage.
@@ridleyroid9060 World First raiders are the top 1%. You should never balance a game based on the top 1% or the bottom 1%. There's not a single fight where you can play your jobs to a competent level and you'll die from lack of damage past the first few weeks. None. 0. This entire "damage should be tied to job difficulty" stuff has been talked and overdone for years. It's inane. The damage variance has NEVER been bad enough for it to matter that much for 99% of the playerbase.
The caveat to my statement i forgot to say was "UNLESS you're literally a world first raider, in which you SHOULD play the most powerful jobs to get to your goals quickly." It only matters for them and ONLY for the race. If you're playing any content atm (yes, even TOP. Yes, even back in Endwalker) as long as you play your job even at a decent competence, literally not even much optimisation is needed to clear with ANY proper comp.
If you're just some month 1 Savage raider and you're picking jobs based on the meta, simply put you have no idea what you're doing.
@@ridleyroid9060 "Any serious proggers" implying I'm not? I cleared Arcadion Savage M1 and M2 one session each from completely blind fresh, the only reason i haven't fully cleared the tier week one was cus i don't have much time to play anymore like i used to.
First few clears? We had upwards of 5 deaths.
Didn't even get close to enrage.
If you're assuming i don't know what I'm talking about, you assumed wrong. I've done every single Pandaemonium Savage fights without thinking about meta comps whatsoever and have cleared every single one of them with atleast purple+ parses on Reaper only, never swapped for the entire expansion (not even that high purple btw, meaning I'm not even doing top of the top damage with LOTS of mistakes) and i have not ONCE had an issue with damage when in most of EW iirc Reaper was playing second fiddle to Dragoon.
Let me repeat: Meta comps ONLY matter if you're a world first raider. You're not. Most of us aren't.
The problem is the combination of needing to do more damage than everyone else due to having 0 party buff or personal defensive while being that easy to play.
Either is not bad on its own but the combination of both is a bit much.
Nerfing its damage will make VPR obsolete. I do enjoy VPR but I also see the problems it brings.
But wouldnt that mean SAM is currently obsolete? considering that it has lower damage and does not provide any party buffs? On top of being harder to play. I wouldnt take mitigation really into consideration since most classes have the same/similiar ones and they should imo not affect the damage a class can provide!
@@HiImFox Kind of yes, but it as least has some sort of survivability with third eye or whatever the upgraded name is.
It would be very rarely a bonus but in some situations it might make the SAM survive something a VPR would have died to.
Getting these two jobs balanced will be hell for SE I am pretty sure since all they do is damage... the one dealing less could be considered useless/obsolete.
The ease of use should put VPR below SAM however.
Excactly, having third eye should not impact the damage samurai does, in fact top tier samurai players will take damage on purpose to procc third eye more often LOL its imo a bad skill but thats for a different discussion.
And ye, balancing them will be hell for SE. Either you make Viper more difficult to justify its dmg output to be on par with samurai or you straight up make it easier and its a lower difficulty ceiling with lower damage as a consequence which would be absolutely fine in my opinion since imo an average player can do more damage on a nerfed version of viper than they would on a samurai as it is harder
Defensives should have very little interaction with DPS unless we're talking about DPS who are literal borderline tanks like the inverse of GNB basically. in fact, I still fully believe that ALL DPS REGARDLESS OF THEIR UTILITY should have a personal defensive cooldown and it is a genuine failing that they do not.
Hi Fox, what is the UI mod that you use by any chance if dont mind sharing, the other one I used isnt supported since EW
Of course! You were probably using Material UI? In this discord discord.gg/T5sWUpgNPD you can find the new "material ui" or rather 2 new UIs, FROST UI (which is what im using) and a continued support of Material UI by someone else!
i agree that its too powerful in current content, but it would be a bit problematic to nerf it too much since in pre dawntrail/endwalker content it’s straight up the lowest dps in the game as is
I feel like Nerfing is never the answer as you will just end up with a more volatile/split community than it already is with current job design. They should just do what they keep doing in these situations, adjust bosses health and buff other jobs to compensate.
job wasn't for me. i like speed! but i also prefer being busier (for me that means more buttons being pressed in quick succession) I personally prefer having more individual skills than fingers. No salt. just aint for me. but I'm really liking dragoon now!
The differences in DPS are so minimal though.
Doesn't matter. If one job is going to be at the top, it makes absolutely no sense for that job to be the easiest job in the game.
@@casualduck1580 - Rotational complexity shouldn't be a factor in DPS capability. It's exclusively a fun factor.
People who want complex rotations should be able to do good dps.
People who *don't* want complex rotations should *also* be able to do good dps.
The vast majority of players don't pick the job that is "easy to play" but because it fits the class fantasy/aesthetic they desire most.
@@DrakeWurrum That works up until i feel like i'm wasting my time playing something that's not completely braindead. It doesn't work. I don't ''want'' to work harder for less reward. It's such a bizarre take.
Vpr doesn't have to suddenly become worthless but it can not be top dps.
@@casualduck1580 Doesn't matter what changes jobs get. Everyone will always complain about what the highest dps job is. Sam is the highest and BLM players will complain about they should be because harder to play. Every raid tier we get these same arguments, people will never be happy. You saying you don't wanna put in extra work and still do less just solidifies the problem. By that logic if they made everything piss easy or rocket science hard, you play which ever one strokes your ego the most. If everything was easy people would still play hardest hitting jobs, and vice versa.
@@UlfgeirValbjorn God forbid a melee dps with a sped up warrior dps rotation does slightly less than the ones with an actual dps rotation and failstates. Wouldn't want to create an environment where people feel encouraged to not take the path of no resistance would we now?
Yup when I heard him say he doenst use AoE in dungeons I had to rewind to see I heard him wrong. Okay wasnt hearing wrong. Yeah Ive heard enough you dont know Viper.
BRO WTF HAHAHA WHY WOULD I NOT USE AOE IN DUNGEONS
Viper feels like Melee Summoner except the damage is good.
The lack of Gnash management turned the class into press the button that lights up.
Similar to WoW Fury Warrior.
The discrepancy between DPS with easier jobs doing higher damage with low effort vs. harder jobs doing less damage for more work is concerning.
But it could also be a case of overtuning the new Jobs at launch only to bring them in line in a later patch.
Gotta lure in players to play the shiny new jobs.
I feel like I have real issue with 14's dps of oversimplification. I've seen some streamers say that "jobs have to be simple so fights can be hard!" but Wow and other MMOs have proven that wrong a THOUSAND TIMES over. The fact that 14 has managed to run into almost evrey problem modern wow has in half the lifetime in terms of class design is genuinely extremely concerning
It’s not the only easy class. Reaper is crazy easy. I enjoy reaper more but neither you have to think about.
not as easy as this, especially the burst
I find Viper a lot easier than other jobs as well. Combos condensed to a few buttons and not a lot of extra buffs and abilities to use make it very straightforward and hard to mess up. I do find it more fun than other melees though, as I personally prefer action games with fast-paced combat and less skills/buttons to press than classic MMOs. It's becoming a problem for me because after getting used to Viper I find myself not wanting to play any other melee job (I'm a ranged main so that's not a big issue, but still) 🥲
Also I do find Viper a lot easier on keyboard than on controllers with XHB. Most of my friends play with XHB and many are complaining about it being a bit too busy.
Edit: On damage output, I do think having classes like Samurai and Monk do the same or more damage than Viper is definitely the way to go. Nerfing the ranged combo might be a good idea as I think the "fun" of Viper mainly comes from the melee combos anyway...
just play machinist, piss easy, and also doesn't deal any damage, and SE doesn't care about you. Fr tho they should nerf it, the .05 buff not only made it even more braindead but also so strong like you said lol
I kind of agree that viper ATM is overtuned compared to the other class, but so is Pictomancer so maybe its just a new class thing and they are gonna asses this in the future balance patches at least. This Tier does seem to favor uncoiled fury A LOT with downtime lasting 3 seconds at most so i can see why it does seem unfair. Now, to the 'harder jobs should deal more damage' statement, I kinda don't believe in that. Well of course each patch there is going to be classes that deal more damage than other classes and thats kinda what I like about it. I could be playing paladin for a patch and the damage might be low but maybe next patch my class could be up there with the big leagues, y'know the GNB and DRK or WAR which nowdays paladin is actually pretty strong compared to whatever the fuck it was in Endwalker before the rework. If every class always had a hierarchy and did the same damage each patch in my opinion people would just play the better jobs, every world first race would be the same comp and for me that would be kind of boring (Remember Abyssos where everyone ran like GNB/DRK and Bard was bad to play and MCH was a joke compared to DNC so everyone was just DNC). You could say that the way i'm describing this shouldn't be a reason to play the other jobs and you should just play the job you like, but doesn't it kinda feel bad when the job you like to play is just 'technically' worse than the other jobs because its easier to play according to some people at SQE who will make up the damage hierarchy inhouse. I remember how I felt playing P8S as Paladin week 1 and technically griefing since I would be doing equal/greater damage if i just actually trained a bit of GNB before that patch and my bursts would have been a lot more damage. That shit was ass since when I saw we got like 50.5% it kinda felt like my fault since i was playing the weaker job on the raid tier with the thightest DPS check in the expansion.
Saying that 500 dps difference is destorying DPS balance is kind of an overstatement when the DPS check this tier is doable for everyone. If this was Endwalker that might have been true that 500 dps is a lot but DPS deal like 22000+ Damage nowdays it like 2%~ give or take. They changed so many potencies at once before savage dropped that this was bound to happen. Let's just hope 7.08 fixes the problems with weaker jobs and buffs them up.
Yeaah you right on this tbh. I wish SE would balance more often and change the meta a bit more often personally, it would keep the game more interesting. Dropping balance patches on savage release is something I will never really understand tbh, its really weird to do that on a tier release.
You made me rethink my opinion on dmg by difficulty with your response. I think for VPR right now its just that it feels unfair to every other melee with being the highest and by far easiest
I agree with this all 100%. Viper losing the Dread mechanic is what made me decide against using it last minute before Savage. I know it's probably doing better overall, but I genuinely dislike how easy it is now. Yes, it required a lot of maintenance before- but it was a "high execution, high reward" class. Now it's "simon says, high reward," and that's just depressing. Awakening is pretty easy to maintain since you know to use it for your burst windows; and since Serpent's Ire gives you a free cast instead of Awakening instead of giving 50 meter, theres no real risk of overcapping unless you time something awkwardly or have downtime to misalign the rotation. Aside from that, it has what I believe is hands down the _best_ melee disengage option in the form of Uncoiled Fury and just making sure to burn one before capping so you can save them for disengages is the only other resource you need to keep an eye on now. The buffs are easier than ever to keep active now too since you have nothing else you really need to pay attention to.
Its sad because Viper is genuinely really, really fun to play. It's a great class and the concept is awesome and unique. But I think making it easier by removing a core mechanic wasn't the step they should have taken.
It was easy before the change, really. Gnash was just an annoyance and would of been if fight design like M2 and strayborough is the direction theyre going with for DT encounters. Like I previously mentioned (look at my other comment) , I and many others were worried it was gonna be positional removal. But thankfully that wasn't the case.
@@Mexu-k9e That was my concern, too; that they were going to make the job easier by removing some of the positional requirements. I personally enjoy the more difficult jobs where you have to pay attention and be involved. Having a higher skill threshold is nice; but as it stands right now, Viper feels easy to pick up and play. As long as you keep in mind to alternate between rear and flank during your combos; or simply remember that "Swiftskin" actions always are/lead into rear attack, and "Hunter" actions are/lead into flanks; the job plays itself. Viper definitely feels like it has an edge in the M2S case right now. Alarm Pheromes (and even Spirited Charge) can be extremely annoying for uptime; while Viper has Uncoiled Fury to stand back and make the mechanic super easy to resolve while keeping damage up for most of it. Trying to greed M2S with Samurai so I didn't have to spam "Enpi" was perhaps the greatest challenge of the entire tier so far.
Unrelated to viper but more of job balancing as a whole the balancing of jobs this expansion and EW has been jarring to me. MCH doesn't offer enough dps to justify not bringing DNC or BRD yet it sits in limbo with the range tax when it should be in the mix of lower melee. The same goes for summoner which is hit with raise tax and what seems to be range tax because of how easy it is while simultaneously doing less than a MCH and even RDM and having none of the group utility of a RDM or a PCT. RDM doesn't have to waist its swift cast on raise like summoner, Summoner doesnt have a heal that scales with its stat like RDM, and summoner doesnt have any party mit like RDM and PCT yet it sits in a spot where bards are pulling hairs from its ass cheeks. They sit here and make the easiest melee the best dps in the game and then punish the other easy jobs for being easy to the point where they are weaker than jobs with superior utility and support.
What outfit is that bro? The drip is godlike
i think i am using the aglaia top
"9 seconds of uptime" its more like 6 or 7 if you hold all of them and have better gear but that's not always optimal and rarely will you hold all 3. There's a bit that can be done on viper to optimize when you are doing reawaken or uncoiled fury. Viper is the least punishing to make mistakes or die. Viper is just the best designed melee right now, all the others feel like shit to play. It is ok, stop saying it isn't. The other jobs should follow suit in streamlining process. Formerly I mained ninja, and while I loved that job, mudra bugs and the kit changes have turned me off from it. So it's not like I can't play a class with a higher skill requirement, but a lot of my damage relied on the party not being dogshit at the game, on viper I don't need my party to get the most out of my job. Also 90th percentile is a crazy cherry picked selection of data. Square does not balance everything around the top 10% of players, arguably they only ever balance ultimates around them. And let's be honest here, the top 5% of players are usually having the party sandbag for parse runs. But that data does not account for the skill floor. Square has been changing ff14 to be "accessible" and easier for new players to get into, and part of that is going to include making the jobs not clunky to play. Unfortunately, other melees compared to viper are extraordinarily clunky to play at the moment. Viper isn't hard, but it is busy, and I think that it has an appropriate balance that should set the standard for jobs in the future. It will probably have a small nerf in the future when they nerf picto as well.
If every single job would be like Viper I probably would not play anymore tbh. It's not engaging enough for what I would like classes to be so, I kindly have to disagree its the best designed melee.
just because some jobs don't play themselves and have 0 room for mistakes like viper doesnt mean that the other jobs are clunky
@@ek9750 See reaper (supposedly one of the best designed jobs) having built in communio drift. That shit is clunky. See machinist clipping and spamming, shit is clunky. Ninja mudra bugs, summoner's garuda phase summon being worthless.
@@HiImFox Everyone forgets how braindead samurai and red mage were on release, and how they frontloaded so much damage they could rip aggro from tanks, and if the tank was a warrior diversion wasn't even enough to save you. Reaper was also cracked on launch and it got nerfed down. But now the scouting gear job has a slightly overtuned release and everyone loses their minds.
Gee, it's like they made a new job and thought people should play it by making it more accessible for general/casual players.
Any job is accessible to anyone. dont bullshit
@@HiImFox You missed the part where I mentioned casual players. The type of people that can't think beyond a single button push from a mobile game. SE has to think about the game from a business perspective, first and foremost. More people playing the game because "new job" means better numbers for them. What you find dumbed-down might be someone else's complexity. Broaden your viewpoint beyond the raid mindset and you'll see the "why" of when they make changes to jobs.
@@Avenal059 than can just make jobs interesting. not everything has to be homogenized slop because someone cant read tooltips or do good damage. if theyre a casual they wont worry about optomization regardless, so why design with them in mind in the first place? theyre gonna do bad damage whether the job plays itself or not, so why make people who like the deep parts of combat suffer. literally look at summoner players.
summed up my thoughts pretty well on this.
I dont see any reason to insult casual players by claiming "they cant think beyond a single button push from a mobile game". I cherrish the casual gamer more than the hardcore players. Yet, job design will never be made in mind with casual, nor with hardcore players. Its made with the average player who does general battle content raging from normal modes to ex trials probably. The game is not balanced around the top 1% nor is it around the bottom 1%.
If someone has no interest in learning battle classes, releasing easier ones won't change it. Their goal was not to release a class catered towards casuals, viper pretty clearly is a test alongside pictomancer for a change in how GCDs work to remove button bloat. Their change in 7.05 made the class this easy and it was harder on initial release as I mentioned.
If someone struggles playing XIV, theres something they can do, which is put in effort and improve. Not every single piece of content needs to be handed to you. Im also quite confident in my viewpoint on this. Just because I happen to raid does not exclude me from understand that SE is a business that wants to make money. Otherwise I would probably cry about how boring the raid tier was and that I want more hard battle content, not necessarily make a 20 min yapping video about a class that I perceive as fun, yet too easy and too rewarding.
i just wish easy classes had less damage, every viper main thinking they are gods of pve, yet the humble ninja and bard are the real gamers. SE should give incentive for playing harder jobs. Yet the easy ones all top FFlogs
1000% agree
i'm commenting after your FFLOGS segment.
If you ask me, i think they locked themselves with how they design jobs
they take in account How easy it is to perform+raid buff or not ?+ the role (melee,phys range or caster)
this is way too much criteria to balance anything properly, Viper should be lower than even dancer or bard if we take in with their logic. I think they should just stop trying to please every one and have clear categories of DPS.
I dont know if there is a lot of structure behind their balancing process tbh lol, melees seems currently strongest and the rest does not feel like it makes a lot of sense. Why are VPR and SAM the strongest melees but BLM and MCH not the strongest casters then? juist as en example. I think balancing by difficulty should always be the way to go
@@HiImFox they should indeed only taking job difficulty into account and nothing else. that way they could give more than cosmetic skills and some new big explosion button every expansion since SHB. coming from Heavensward. i was still happy to play SHB jobs because i thought they were about to go from that base and sort of ''bring innovation'' each expansion as they did prior. but i was dissapointed so far.
@@goropanckechi3028 IMO, they fucking massacured what made SHB gameplay actually fun across almost all jobs.
I know this might be wishful thinking because so many of my friends disagree with me. I feel like the harder a job design/kit is to execute properly especially in a raid setting should be rewarded with "higher" DPS. Be rewarded by playing that said "harder" class well. On the other spectrum jobs that are designed to be the casual/easy job can do well in any content but won't provide DPS at the same level of a class designed to be "harder".
Think the difference between NIN and MNK for DPS numbers. Otherwise, if easy job = top DPS why play the others?
I do think the class is going to get balanced but my point stands. Giving a Job identity is another huge aspect I think will do some good also!
I feel very similiar to you. The concept of high risk high reward is something I personally enjoy and I would like to see it more in XIV. I think we partially have this logic applied with melees being high on the damage charts by having to care about uptime, positionals and in some cases even cast times, while phys ranged have none of that, therefore being on the lower end of dps.
And exactly as you said, if an easy class can provide more damage, why (besides out of personal fun and interest) would you have any reason to play a difficult job?
@@HiImFox Yes!! I get so much flak for having this opinion. People want things easy but think it's unfair to be below someone who is doing the actual effort in trying to get better. Makes me happy to know that not everyone feels that way. Thanks for the response :)
This is why I’m happy that bard is doing better than the other phys ranged, despite having a lot of utility and damage buffs it’s still way harder than the other two to play. In EW there was literally zero reason to bring it because it was far harder than the other two to play optimally AND it brought less damage, this just feels healthier imo.
Ever since they did the SMN changes going into EW my mindset has changed on job design and damage. To be honest I just want something that is fun to play and can do competitive damage. With SMN they made it extremely easy but gutted the jobs feel and overall its enjoyability to play at least for me. With Viper, it is incredibly easy but it is also incredibly fun to play and the reward from playing it correctly is profound. I've played the Hardest jobs in this game and I feel that if that's what you like you should absolutely do so. Viper is easy sure but should it be the lowest melee?? I don't think so. I've played MMO's for a majority of my life and if I've learned anything its that people no matter the difficulty at the high end will simply just play the best classes/jobs suitable to clear the content quickly. Granted, this does limit the pool in the current case where viper is ahead of the other melee jobs. I do not think the fact that it is easy should play a part in it doing more damage. Its fun, active, and flexible and that makes it desirable in the first place the addition that its currently outpacing other melee especially Samurai is only relative at at 90th+ percentile because it doesn't really impact anyone else. With all of that being said likely they will bring other jobs to line with viper or otherwise. I will state that the gap between SAM and VPR is considerable but not completely busted and I feel a bit overdramatic in your analysis of the data presented. The correlation of job difficulty and dmg output is in the end a personal choice and someone who can't play the harder jobs should have a strong option to them. I like hard jobs and understand the reward when you execute the rotation perfectly and end up on top but not everyone is like this and should we design jobs around this mindset? Im hoping either VPR gets a potency nerf or the other jobs can receive a small buff after they've had time to look at the tier. What I would hate to see it VPR getting losing 3-4 spots just because it's easy.
I do think you have some good points in your answer, thanks for that. It is a very difficult decision on "who do you balance the game around" because well, a large part of the playerbase is indeed more casual which will never even care about the top damage output in the first place. The question is, would you play a job you do not enjoy purely cause it does more damage over a job you do enjoy while it might be lower? My answer will always be a no to that. I picked up monk, it is performing really well right now but I also would have played it if it were lower in damage. I still believe that difficulty should play a role in damage output. A job with lower difficulty ceiling should provide less damage or at least be on part when played properly with a job that has a higher ceiling. Otherwise the other job would technically seen always on paper be useless as it requires much more effort to have the same dps.
I also did over dramatize the difference, I think It's because I a little jealous of all the shit viper got especially uptime wise compared to my monk... :D
i leveled this job because balancing 3 buffs seemed really fun, and it was. keeping all 3 buffs up for double reawaken was interesting, now the job just kinda plays itself and does too much damage lmao. i will stick to reaper, hopefully they dont remove deaths design from the game
I agree, I actually did sometimes reawaken without paying attention to my debuff and messed up, unlucky :( haha
Death's design feels fucking awful imo.
I do not like VPR at all, I like being able to setup abilities similarly across all melee, not being able to set it up similarly with the other melee action bars feel bad. Now having to glue my eyes to the either the 2 buttons or watch the job guage in order to see what ender I need use feels bad too.
I also don't like Viper, but I feel upset that Viper has no damage mitigation or self healing. There's nothing else to Viper not even dot management from poison venom abilities which I thought would be a part of the kit and the lore. I'm disappointed 😞
The worst part is that not even dreadwinder or coils are meant to be saved for burst phases. double awakening takes up the entire raid buff window, and will give you 2 coils to use after the fact, so you literally have no real resources to save now that buffs are up to 60 seconds and noxious gnash doesn't have to be maintained. Class was actually gutted in 7.05
buff mnk
They felt like nerfing us for some reason.
@@xL0stKIlah literally how?
@@StriderZessei they removed our dot and ability to buff all our moves constantly. Literally how not!?
@@xL0stKIlah by making it so your moves get buffed with fury. Monks are literally dealing more damage than ever before.
@@StriderZessei too bad you can only buff a whopping 3 moves
I have a Viper in my static and i am occasionally envious how easy he can keep uptime with his ranged Uncoiled attacks, but damn am i glad i got the chance to play Reaper again this expansion. Due to group composition i was stuck on Summoner for the last 2 raid tiers in Endwalker and while it was nice at first not having to think too much and have all of my focus purely for mechanics it grew boring very, very quickly.
Now after leveling Viper to 100 i already feel the same... it's WAY too barebones and simple for my tastes. Not that Reaper is all that difficult to play either, but it's way more fun and engaging for me.
I originally thought Viper would have venom dots and you could literally watch the health bar of enemies just melt. This seemed reasonable with Viper being based on a poisonous snake. But there's no poison ......
Because SQE hates dots.
Vipers aren't poisonous, they're venomous. Also funny thing, that venoms used to be ninja's thing back in the day and now there's a new class built about them.
@@scorpiowarrior7841 I don't know why the change because in HW it was about dots. Had boss' hp bars lit up like a Christmas tree ....
@Gemini_Godhand yeah idk why either, in fact one thing I loved about SHB was snapshotting dots felt really good and now all dots feel like sqe is on a personal mission to get them out of the game
Viper before the changes was very easy, but it was still fun with its high APM that made up for it a lot. It had enough room for some optimization that it kept it engaging enough, and with more additions in the next expansion it could actually come to have a decent skill ceiling to make it more compelling to min-max. The fact as little as it was that they STILL took it away is just such a massive joke.
I really don't get SE design philosophy. You WANT jobs to have a skill ceiling to try and strive towards to keep a job compelling for the playerbase. Even many of the casual players will WANT some way to express their skill playing a job to show up others and make their time playing the job feel more rewarding. In a game with casual content and then harder content you want players to strive to get better and the players will generally want to over time go for harder content (while not all will go to ultimate content, there are many who do eventually dip their feet into Extremes or even some savage after they played the game for some time).
Hoenstly the job is overtuned but I also don't think they should balance the jobs based on how hard they are to play since it's PVE, yeah there is an inbalance of effort between a VPR and SAM but at the end of a day it's not really like anyone is actually getting fucked over because of that fact. Like you might think because viper is so easy that you should just play it over any other melee for that fact but some people just play jobs because of personal prefrence. There is always gonna be a job some people consider "useless" but it really doesn't matter when it comes to clearing if people are actually hitting buttons. but i will say saving coils for uptime is actually just broken LOL
But then there would be no logical reason to ever play anything else. It's fine if you like to play the easier jobs but please do not expect to perform the same at the skill ceiling. Other jobs just would not have a place in the game anymore. There is no preference to working harder for less, or the same reward. It's just an idealistic way of thinking for someone who does not want their job penalized.
yeah that works until you compare pct and blm
but balance like this matters only to the top 5% anyway who mostly play for efficiency and not any other reason. in that domain it is important to have a healthy balance
The class is cool, the kit is good, everything is fine on this class, some people might prefer easy/flexible gameplay, some prefer hard/strict rotations, its good to have an easy option.
You make it sounds like viper is kinda problematic because it has good disconnect option, its other classes that lack a better designed option for the disconnect moments.
The only downside is that it does slightly more damage than it should, if it would do similar-ish damage as the other melees, it would be fine disregarding how easy/hard all melees are.
I would hope it does more damage then the other melee lol it has no buffs to give to the team not even a single defensive
@@YasuBlackstoneshouldn’t be dealing more dmg than blm or samurai with how brain off this job is, but I suppose potencies and stuff can always be adjusted. I’d say it being equal or slightly below samurai would be fair.
Keep in mind, often when people refer to damage they mean overall damage, including damage provided by buffs. Absolutely a non-buff class should have more personal damage, but overall damage needs to be equal or lower in vipers case
The issue is having everything all at once:
- Being marginally easier
- Having 9 seconds of free uptime from range
- Doing more damage than any other class currently, which is partially due to free uptime.
The difference in difficulty of the melees should not be this big. Sure, some can be easier and others harder but viper is so much easier its a bit of a joke.
Ontop of that having uptime tools is not the issue, but having it for 9 seconds while no other melee class can perform this is just criminal. If you give uptime to all of them, it would be different obviously.
And lastly, the damage output being too high due to it being too simply and getting free-uptime is the issue, it should be below every other melee dps (in rdps) with how much easier it is. Probably even below some casters.
So yeah, i mentioned this even in the video, being easy is not the easy, its all the stuff on top of that causing it to be issues. If every class in xiv would be this level of easy i honestly dunno if i would play the game
The issue was keeping the debuff on the enemy. If for any reason you had to not reapply the debuff then everything felt bad. To apply it was part of your 123 and dreadwinder. It only gave 24s and a reapply of 40s. That wasn't even long enough to get your burst in. If you had a fight that made you back off the boss then your behind in your rotation and your buff and debuff fell off. That felt awful. There should never be a quote on quote hardcore job. All that does is alienate a player base. I use Vrp is savage and it feels fine. The pre patch vpr was doable but annoying. If majority of the player base felt it waa a problem the it makes sense to fix it. It was 1 of the 2 flagship jobs for the xpac. Dushing out a product that only less than 30% of the player base like is not good. This is coming from someone who only wanted a debuff increase on gnash to 24s to 30 up to 60. Them removing it and adding the dmg to hitting your positionals is a smart move. Changing the 123 help players not tunnel vision on the hotbar. The job is fine as it is right now. This is like saying old smn was peak and we should go back to that. Even though few player played amn in its old state. A job that is played by mainly peo players and little casual is still a bad job. It means it's poor job design. Even back in 2.0 when jobs had individuality. Player would discriminate base on that jobs uniqueness. Mnk was in a bad spot due to it doing blunt dmg. Brd and drg was king because of the piercing bonus. Pld and Nin with slashing and a blm for dmg with mage balled. If you main mnk you were shunned. Things shafted like this till stormblood. The job could pretty much play with any comp. So when I hear about job being homogenized. I think back to how bad people were when it wasnt there.
wdym it wasnt long enough for your burst, ofc it was
@@HiImFox By the time you got reawaken you had about 15ish seconds to do burst. Most double reawaken so you had to activly delay burst to reapply debuff or just do the burst and lose out on dmg. You could get the debuff to 40s at the start and avoid this but now you are not in line with everyone else 2min CDs. That debuff also had an issue with falling off. If the boss mech had you off the boss then that debuff was pretty much going away. Its was the only melee that was that way. To keep it up you had to have your rotation up 100% of the time even during downtime. Rpr had 1 button the could just click and reapply, but Vpr needed it to be done via a 123 combo or dreadwind combo both of which only gave you 24s. It was doable but it was annoying. I was hoping for a buff on the time but they moved it to uping the smg on pos skill. I main and raid Vpr, I played it in both pre patch and current. I know its pros, cons and pain points. That debuff was a limiting factor, dreadwinder for lower skilled players is a big learning curve, and the 123 combo takes a bit to get use to. All of which was fixed and dreadwinders positional being monitored for now as its mostly just a movement skill check.
Easy but boring tbh
i think you said it correctly without realizing it "i play this when i dont want to focus and just hit buttons when they light up and play casually" that is the entire point of the job. this job is 100% for the bad player who somehow cannot play this already easy as fuck game. they WANT to make jobs that are easy as fuck, that take no brain to play, but yield a fuck ton of damage and results. its been a trend, rpr isnt hard, dnc isnt hard, vpr isnt hard, smn was made to be braindead, honestly neither is pct really but it takes more planning than its release brother. this is the direction theyre going because it probably yields more money
And yet at the same time slowly kills any form of skill expression
Im not sure if i want to agree because while yes, difficulty of class design has decreased massively since HW, the diff between RPR/DNC and VPR is still significant. Their idea was to make all jobs easier to make harder content (TOP/DSR) imo which obviously hurt job identity but, I do believe that the very casual player does not really care about damage as long as they are having fun and the class looks cool to them
Virgin Viper vs Perfect Pictomancer.
yeah man have fun drawing your sojaks with the reddit class
@@randyrandom2052 Soy-Viper wearing Clive/Squall outfits says what?
Uncoiled fury should go into role actions and should be available to every melee.
Nearly every melee already has ranged attacks or other ways to deal with downtime.
. Monk has entered the chat.
slight difference inbetween throwing spears and uncoiled fury, just a tiny
This is ultimately - in the end - a BUSINESS decision. They used VIPER as the poster child of marketing. it got people super excited, it got old players to return, it got new players in..
VIPER is the highest number played job in the entire game at this point.
that means even 20-30% of the viper player base = a lot of subscription $$$
what happens when the job you sold to make a lot of new and returning subscribers and $$$ is actually challenging to play properly?
it simply made business sense to tone down the job's difficulty because of the sheer number of people who wanted to keep playing the job VS having to tell these players to play a different job.
they were sold on viper. they want to play viper - or ELSE they might unsub. Bad for Business
that's why they did it.
it's not rocket science. it's suffering from the success of your marketing and not wanting to risk subscriptions revenue.
We optimizers/ultimate raiders are not the deciding factor here. we are so TINY in population vs the casual/midcore player base.
as much as I didn't like the changes to viper, I want the game to succeed. so i just moved to a different job and let the majority have their fun.
I dont think you know much about the devs if you think this change was purely about money lol.
Plenty of ppl liked it before the changes. And even if some didnt, most ppl arent going to quit or not buy an entire expansion over not liking one new job.
@@omegaxtrigun I'm bringing my thoughts in as someone who was in the gaming and media industry where the entire business model was subscription revenue.
thanks for your opinion though.
have a great day
dont believe that anyone will buy a game because of balance. most people arent even aware of the balance of classes lol
Bro all jobs in this game are easy
See this is a statement that offers 0 contribution to the topic at hand or the discussion. I think everyone knows XIV is not the hardest game and never will be, that does not exclude any discourse about difficulty of the jobs. But thanks man, now I know every job is easy, appreciate it man.
Optimising jobs is genuinely challenging.
But this job optimises itself with 5 button presses.
Difficulty of a job should NEVER determine the damage ceiling. EVER. Can people stop saying that please.... if that is the case high end players are basicly forced to play the hard jobs everytime because they do more damage instead of the one they enjoy in terms of class fantasy. If you choose the more difficult job it should be a choice of challenging yourself and not to squeeze out that bonus 0.2%.
Alright, I understand your point, how should in your opinion balancing be done? Cause right now dont you have the issue that you still play wtv is at the top which in return means not allowing you to play your fantasy class?
But that just makes the inverse true: If there isn't a benefit to playing the more difficult jobs, what's the point?