Undaunted: Stalingrad Review - Emotional Gauntlet
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- Опубліковано 26 чер 2024
- #boardgames #review
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A review copy of Undaunted: Stalingrad has been provided by Osprey Games
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BGG Review list - boardgamegeek.com/geeklist/17... - Ігри
Thank you so much for one of the most thoughtful reviews I’ve ever heard for a game I helped create. It’s a huge honor.
Can’t wait the french trad ! I already own normandy, and I’m waiting for North Africa. Great games !
and you didnt even read it, doesnt it blow your mind?
I just heard about your game and I’m stoked to play it 🙏🏻
You guys are getting me through a very tough break up after ten years.
I bought Wingspan because of your review, and am playing solo currently - very far away from any friends or family.
Your videos have kept me going in a major way.
Thank you both.
Glad that we can bring some happiness in a tough time. We're thinking about doing a video focused on our pics for great solo games, hopefully something to look forward to.
@@NoPunIncluded You have no idea, that would be amazing! Have an amazing time putting it together 😊
@@NoPunIncluded I picked up Under Falling Skies and used it as a pleasant 2p experience with my kiddo, who can't read yet. I think solo games may have a solid place in parent/child gaming for kids who want a deeper game but don't have the literacy or math skills yet.
What game did you break up with?
As a player of many heavy war boardgames, one thing i've found is that despite the "play" aspect of turning tragedy into play, it has given me far better understanding and appreciation of the seriousness of these topics.
For example, everything I knew about Omaha Beach was based on the simplified and glorified depiction in Saving Private Ryan. However after playing the brilliant game D-Day At Omaha Beach, it left me with many questions that were eventually answered by reading the book that John Butterfield was inspired by when designing it - Omaha Beach by Joseph Balkoski. Considered one of the most accurate accounts of what happened.
I know we're turning chaos into fun, but if it leads to more people understanding history and ultimately knowing where we went wrong in the past, or even just identifying when the darkest moments of our collective past are at the point of being repeated. Then maybe it's worth it?
We are at a pivotal point once again, and yet folks are more concerned about leisure than taking self-responsibility. So have we truly learnt the lessons of the past, or do we once again go into learning hard lessons from misery, tragedy and loss.
I am a wargamer I have played historical figures games since 1973, board wargames since 1977, RPGs since 1977. The thing about playing wargames and this is a wargame is it makes you think about War, the consequences of war the horror of war. Its a valuable thing I am fascinated by War but I hate it, I hate it because I know i as much as anyone who has been fortunate not to have fought can. So the feeling of disquiet is understandable. I always say that when I fight a battle no one dies my figures go back in the box and can be used again. Great review as always
board game victim loitering in your house is such an excellent way to describe one's partner
This review stands out of one of the best ones, you have ever done on all fronts. Bravo No Pun Included.
This is the absolute best review you all have ever published. It's entertaining, it's informative, and it got me interested in a game that wasn't on my radar at all. Thank you.
A great review -- you guys ae always great. I appreciated the reflection at the end. There seems to be a growing consideration by board game reviewers when reviewing historical board games that perhaps we need to at least think about what is on the table. It is a welcome addition to reviews.
Oh goodness, that finisher!
Thank you for the enthusiastic and well considered review *again*. The quality of your reviews is incredible and the *context* of what the game is about, which often people ignore for mechanics or theme (or art), is brought into focus here. It is a compelling offering, especially since it is only 2 players, and that is much easier to organize than 4 players for sure. I will check out the behind the scenes Patreon video shortly, as I simply *must know more*
That was one helluva review from both of you. Well done.
i was 7 when the war started in my country. i was 12 when it finished. i didn't see much of it - some firefights in the distance and running to the bomb shelter during few air raids - but i've experienced things that come with the war. a rise in nationalism being spoon-fed to children in schools, devolving into fascism in mouths of certain teachers. food shortages and power shortages. debilitating poverty that gripped my family for years after the war. i've seen kids coming to our school as refugees only to escape to canada and germany and australia few years later. i've seen my aunt and uncle opening a bar in the winter of '91 with a pinball machine and electronic darts, and fleeing from their village, she pregnant to the teeth, in the winter of '92 with the bar ransacked and burned down. my grandpa's and grandma's house, where i played as a child, burned to the ground. my great grandmother dying from pneumonia as a refugee in a once modern hotel turned into a refugee center. i've seen my father going to war, a man almost 10 years younger than i am today, a father of 3 kids, and coming back changed. i listen to the news from ukraine, and it makes me laugh. not a happy, ha-ha laugh, but the worst kind of laugh, that dark, bitter, deeply sad laugh reserved for tragedies, when things are so bleak and insurmountable that all you can do is laugh. i listen to this childish need to portray everything in black and white, the same way our teachers and our media used to do during wartime, and it fills me with dread for the human condition. and it reminds me of one thing that i believe is true when it comes to war - if you haven't lived it, you can't imagine what it is. for me it will always be a defining break in my childhood, but still a suffering suffered first and foremost through the suffering of my kin - my father, my grandpa and grandma, my aunt and uncle, my cousins who were in the shit, both dying 10 years after the war through a combination of ptsd and alcoholism. for others it will be a thing far, far worse. it will be a place of dread, or of undying hate, or sadness and pain. it will be life-defining.
that is why i haven't got a problem with games like undaunted. or war films, or novels or anything. neither does my dad, or other people i've talked about this. because the war is gamified it's so removed from the real thing that it has no effect at all. it's just dumb (or in some cases pretty smart) fun, so fun that it has no ability to make me feel uneasy. but then again i can only speak for myself, through my narrow lens. others might feel differently. i haven't lived through what they had.
jesus christ
Your reviews are always so thorough and so personal that when you offer up a rave like this, it physically tugs at my purse strings.
Awesome review! You made my mind to try Undaunted series.
Your reviews are always excellent! Congrats!!
Exactly the review I needed!! Thank you :)
You are two of gaming's most thoughtful and intelligent reviewers. Long live No Pun Included!
No one makes me think more about the ideas surrounding board gaming than this channel. This was an excellent review, and I want to talk about it with the creators over several pints of beer for several hours. Perhaps a board game salon?
Hands down, the best ttbg reviewers out there! I just love you guys. Thanks so much for all you do. :)
You are just briljant. Thanks for a good start of the day
Undaunted game system is aging like good wine, the more I play it the more I appreciate it. Can't wait to play this one.
Wow! Great review. Very well done.
Great review. Question: Is ISS Vanguard up next? I'd love to make a decision on the second wave of the Pledge Manager with your perspective.
Thanks for another awesome review.
What cameras & mics are you using? Looks great. As a fan/subscriber, Can we please get a Behind-the-Scenes video how the writing, planning, lighting, and video workflow goes?
Great review, might be something I pick up in a year or so, as need to get through Normandy first
So how about I get the youtube 'minimize window' symbol on a t-shirt?
Another great review, with deep consideration of what games are. Love it.
Brilliant review. Thank you.
Love an NPI review - fantastic as always 👍
I got this game in pre order and can't wait.
Such a lovely video!!
Great review. Very thorough and informative. I had a hard time figuring out if you actually liked the game or not, for a while. lol. As a big fan of Undaunted: Normandy, I had already decided to buy it. It would have taken a seriously bad review, by more than one reviewer, for me to change my mind. I have had a blast playing Undaunted and this game looks just as good as the others.
22:27 important caveat. Thanks!
Best. Review. Ever. *
*Except maybe for that one early review of Space Alert on BGG that was titled, if memory serves, "A rolling hamster ball of chaos."
Are the cards different in quality to the cards in Normandy? Normandy’s cards had an almost plastic feel to them and felt durable.
I have Undaunted Normandy and I confirm that these cards are not built to last. Definitely want to invest in some sleeves. I just bought the Ryker sleeves that were made to fit Undaunted Cards. Don't know anything more about sleeves to say if these are the best pick. Hope they make my game last. I'm even thinking of buying another Undaunted Normandy because of how much they scuffed when I and my friends played. Current playtime is probably 24 hours, and the Platoon Seargent for Germany is definitely identifiable.
Thank you for a fantastic review, the game looks great with a lot of content. I have not played any of the other titles but am interested in military history. For me, I can’t get my head around the deck building, buying/playing cards to activate soldiers etc. it seems a bit abstract? I’ll have to give this a miss. I appreciate the effort gone into this game and I would have a go (as a potential victim) but I won’t be buying it at this moment. Thanks again!
Regards to all!
I also agree with your final sentiments and I have been to war.
It's available in the UK for £65. Would that change your opinions much?
So wish there would be a SciFi version of this. Not comfortable with WWII because of my grandparents stories (silly really).
My dream game would be this SciFi and in lcg style episodes...
I feel the same about most any real-world war game. I appreciate the historic recreations but I tend to prefer fictionalized settings.
I tend to agree, I can look past it if the game is really good tho. Personally I would enjoy a co-op game set in WWII where the Nazis are an AI and each player plays a different member of Allie.
I have wondered myself if using SciFi or Fantasy as an allegory for actual war is more or less disquieting, as Efka puts it. For instance Eclipse is just a silly game about space war, but also the first upgrade on the tech tree, neutron bombs, makes you much more efficient at killing civilians. Even though it is just about aliens, it’s hard to ignore that the real world inspired that technology
Not silly at all!
@@gokid what is your take on This War of Mine?
I watch and rewatch your reviews so many times until the point I say "That's it! I know I have too many games I still need to unpack but I need this one". Today is that day again.
Stop the reviews!!
top review!
One hell of a review!
@No Pun Included
guessing this is a scam account?
You both are so darn talented at this. Thank you for the thoughtful, entertaining and informative review.
I'm still not sure. Is starting with Normandy smart or skip that?
As someone who plays Go conceding is so natural to me and now I feel bad about it because you compared it to bad sportsmanship... like obviously Go is a different beast to a lot of games, and if we have piles of end game scoring objectives there's a difference, but in something directly confrontational... yeah, that's just good manners, surely?
I think it's game/culture dependent. Magic players who play at tournament level, for example, find it rude to not concede when the conclusion is obvious. I think it's not so much the practice of conceeding, but more what it says about the game that is interesting.
Conceding always seems reasonable to me in a head to head two player game. I'll play through if a turnaround seems possible - they are always instructional, but when it's clear the game is lost and you're just going through the motions, lessening the time spent in a death spiral and getting back into a good contest seems to make more sense.
I also think it depends on how many turns there is to game end. If it's just 1 or 2 not-long turns then let's finish it, I know it feels good to actually see how you win a game by a lot. If we have 30 minutes to end the game and I clearly can't win let's just end it now. How long is too long depends on the people of course
@@NoPunIncluded This is very interesting to me. The only game I've played "competitively" (I use the quotes because of my skill level) is X-Wing, and although you do see some concessions from time to time, the game is quick enough and (at least hypothetically) it's possible to come back from a deficit, so it feels like they are pretty rare. However I have never gotten the sense that to not concede would be viewed as poor sportsmanship. I imagine this depends on the game and the community in other words.
Sounds great...
Wow, that's some high praise! Replayability? Would you take joy in playing it after the 15 campaign sessions were completed?
We wouldn't, but not because the game isn't replayable. We're just not big on replaying campaigns.
Do you replay Undaunted scenarios that you've already played? If yes, then there's totally replayability here.
This isn't a criticism really, but I went from "I have to buy this" to "Hmm... need more reviews" over the course of watching. I have not played the original Undaunted. I have a few game friends with whom I think I could play this (and who would like it). But the two reservations about (a) the finale and (b) how Efka felt about it.
I share your reservations. I would add to that the price is somewhat prohibitive, and there is no solitaire mode like in Undaunted Reinforcements. Also, I think my gaming partner and I would have to argue over who has to play as Russia, given what is happening in Ukraine right now as it leaves a bad taste in my mouth (He has a Ukrainian friend). Also, the landscape artwork on the tiles is rather depressing and dreary, compounding the feel of the game that Efka mentions. I like Normandy and North Africa tile art better for some reason, more colorful. I think I'm going to preorder the Undaunted Battle of Britain air war instead, since my gaming partner and I both have worked in aviation anyways, it seems more appropriate for us.
LibreOffice rebels rise up!
is there any way to solo?
Wow that box size surely escalated compared with previous installments
Very important caveat at the end. I had some friends been uneasy with D-Day Dice. This here would certainly have more impact.
Very good
I love you. I still like Advanced Squad Leader better. Look up “Red Barricades Campaign Game”. Yes, I am insane.
Teams? I know this is a game but that word makes me think of sports. That said great video
Yessss🎉
What a thumbnail!
I Really appreciated most of yours videos, and this one in particular. I am a board wargamer for the better part of my life, and i go for 60. I started playing with the '70 S.P.I. games like sniper and Panzer 44. And I still play today. I fully understand the uneasiness in playing with the "Bad guys", to the point that i cannot play on fully solo with the axis or in a game of mass bombing like "B17 queen of sky", BTW I'm an anti-military pacifist, on the left side of politics. But the board war game, more generally an historical conflict game, helps you to understand the reasons, the mechanism that drags people into war. It's fun, for sure, but it makes you think, and study history a little more, to try to understand.
A brilliant review... such a pleasure to watch... as always 🫶
I'm so very excited to play this. Congratulations David for making this remarkable experience.
21:00 It’s interesting you gloss over the concept of the “accidental narrative”. I think Undaunted has always leaned into the players making stories over the board more, so whilst I don’t think it was ever unintentional (you might find the cards having names trite without any explicit mechanics to back it, but it was obviously there for thematic appeal), it does sound like a shame to anti climax slightly.
Played 2 scenarios of undaunted Normandy and both of us didn't really enjoy the high luck factor mostly with drawing the right cards at the right time. It just feels wrong for what I thought was a highly tactical game but in the end isn't.
Both games came down to the winner drawing 2 cards for the same unit twice which allowed them to finish out the game.
I work for a Boardgame manufacturing company, and here is a Question... Or maybe 2... Which company do you think has some really great components? And which one do you think may improve theirs?
For everyone wishing there was a solo mode, I have the answer. Persuade Osprey to develop it into a digital version on Steam platform, with a competent computer AI. This is the future of board games in my opinion - own physical copy for joy of ownership but play on computer as it's faster (no setup and put away time) and you don't need an opponent.
I wouldn't mind playing either side for this game. I've always had a issue with a clear good and bad side. Playing as a good guy I NEED to win and if I'm the bad guys I'm always a little hesitant. I don't know why it's just how my mind works
I know, David Thompson said it is a 2 player game and it just doesnt work solo. But as a campaign game with this special topic at this particular world state, I will never find anyone to play it with me. Unfortunately, I heard the same from other players interested in the game. At this price point, it will be a hard sell. If at some point in time David or David T. Come up with a solo mode, I will definitely be acquiring it.
It's not a matter of coming up with something. Look at how many solo cards the ~12 scenarios of Normandy required. The 15 scenarios of Stalingrad each have several "sub variants" based on the game states shown in the video. The real issue is that it would have made the price point an even harder sell (i.e. things would have gotten more expensive).
If Osprey ever calls for a solo expansion, we'll be there. But you have to realize how daunting a task this is...
@@davidturczi5713 Thank you David for your answer. I can totally see the Challenge it poses. The obvious answer seems that a solo mode would need to be different from the reinforcement one, if otherwise a bazillion cards were needed. Flowcharts, dice, sth like the Gmt solo system? But it would take a lot of time to create a new one and I absolutely understand that a) you do not have the time to do it and b) Osprey didnt order it. Maybe I have to come up with a very rudimentary system myself, because I really want to play it.
I secretly hope someone will take the reinforcement system and adapt it to Stalingrad, if only to have as a benchmark for us how much stuff it would have actually needed. I will be fighting for inclusion of the solo for every future undaunted product nonetheless, or a solo expansion where the former is not possible....
@@davidturczi5713 and as one of the Stalingrad play testers, I will be there with bells on. I've played an unhealthy amount of Solo since reinforcements!
All quiet on the western front... What a book man....
I’m wondering why Pandemic Legacy would be that board game? 0:37
Any thoughts on the solo mode? I don’t think that I’ll be able to get that one played without it.
There is no solo mode.
@@NoPunIncluded My mistake - that is in the Reinforcements expansion, not this one.
7:12 Please don't mix up Soviets and Russians. Soviet Union was a country of many peoples, Russians were the largest group and mostly in power, but expecially talking about the common soldiers - they could be Russian as well as Ukrainian, Belarussian, Latwian and so on. Even Stalin himself was Georgian. Efka, you should know better ;)
They could have come from a number of places. But not by choice, and who sent them there. Not many Ukrainians saying please let me die for my oppressors.
@@teachersears Ukrainians weren't oppressed in USSR, and who do you think oppressed them with Georgian as head of the state?
really good review but to be honest it drives me insane how board game reviews refuse to even allude to most things that make a campaign game like this neat. hinting that buildings get destroyed is personally not enough for me to want to spend 90 dollars on a campaign when i know i can buy the Normadny edition for 30 dollars. you can show me a card. you can explain some mechanic that is cool. i just don't understand why board gamers of all people are SO secretive about spoilers in a game like this when spoiling SOMETHIGN the 2nd campagin based on the most likely scenario would be so much more of an incentive to maybe consider spending 100 dollars.
I really wish there was an AI system so this could be played solo. I love the idea, but my board game time is strictly solo.
It literally says solo mode on the box cover.
There is no solo mode for Stalingrad, nor does it say that on the cover. Reinforcements does have a solo mode so maybe that's where the confusion stems from.
Good review. Military veteran here (10 years). You can still play a game about war, and be against war. It doesn't have to be a conflict of feelings, interest nor feel bad about having fun. What matters is that when real bullets are flying, yes, war is bad and we should avoid it at all costs.
I agree -- more campaigns. The problem with nearly every game is that they are one-off, and that is never as fun as a campaign that carries consequences and it's own narrative.
Exactly the same initiative system as in Sekigahara - The unification of Japan.
"A potential victim loitering inside your house already." Nice.
I so want to play this but have nobody to play it with. I am hoping the "Schizophrenia" method might be doable (i.e. play both sides to the best of your ability).
Well, I guess in the end the Germans get overrun. Can't really end it another way as a historic game. Not sure what the point of this as a scenario would be though.
awesome review
…in what way are d10s unreliable?
In that they range from 1-10 rather than 1-4 or 1-6 or 1-8.
@@NoPunIncluded Sure, but it all comes down to how the rules handle the results. More results means more granularity in how a designer can use those results. You just get more fidelity to work with.
first time I've paused a review after 26 seconds and ordered a game. lmao
"No one knows what you mean." Didn't know my wife reviewed board games.
The last 47 seconds touch on a very good subject that is rarely discussed across the game industry. On the one hand games are a powerful tool that allows player to experience the situation at hand rather then a perception of that situation by an author. On the other hand, player has to invest themself into the situation in order to experience it. Otherwise they just rustles cardboard tokens across cardboard tiles.
But the latter is usually abused by the public and misrepresented as a default approach to games. As if player always participates in a serious military wargames for shits and giggles. Which leads to an odd notion that serious themes never can't be in games since not everyone will play them *seriously*! I wish there were far more discussions on ethics and approaches on how convey complicated subjects in games with care.
Crash Octopus IS that board game and I will not stand for Crash Octopus slander
Calm your tentacles!
I relate to your disquiet at playing out historical evils. It makes me wonder what I'm becoming through that process.
£90!!!
Not russians! soviets!!!
As a former Soviet citizen, I do indeed understand the distinction, apologies.
@@NoPunIncluded soviet army its not only russians, but belarusians, ukrainians, georgians and many other occupied nations
I'm a wargamer and I don't feel an ounce of pity on playing bad guys or pirates, etc. Its a game. The idea that Germany could have won the Battles of Stalingrad and The bulge are ridiculous. But it does give games a competitive feel to balance the sides.
Nor do I feel like a vampire or cannibal when I take the Eucharist.
y'all are just lovely
Having come to this review by a link I will say that the discomfort felt about the teams is a practical description of Thought-Action-Fusion; the belief that thinking, or writing, or reading a bad thing is the same as the bad thing. Furthermore, the unease expressed in the comments is the display of Thought-Action-Fusion.
As a retired cognitive behavioural therapist, who plays wargames I recognize that this is a problem for a lot of people. The obvious answer of avoidance of any and all such feelings, unfortunately, doesn't work, because avoidance only reinforces the feeling of disquiet. The alternative is to face the fear, understand the fear, and remember this is a game, and correlation is not causation.
People aren't changed by playing wargames. Wargames are games, real conflicts are not games.
Thank you for sharing this. We've explored this subject in more detail in our video for Blood on the Clocktower, it might be of interest.
@@NoPunIncluded I shall check that out. Glad you thought my comment was okay.
@@NoPunIncluded It was a great video describing a type of game that I find unpleasant, though mostly because meh! Is that it? YMMV.
Still, fascinating reviews and I've subscribed because I like to support quality content.
Yeah that ending unsold me
i know right? weird, i was all in, but i think he is just a great salesmen for his opinion and because its at the end it has more weight.
Nice!
@10:22 - 1337, further cementing this channel’s greatness. “Hack the planet!”
Lol. Good script
I really want to like this video, but I’m most of the way through it and have yet to hear the word “pundaunted.”
Too bad you didn't expand on the bit the Soviet player can't ever read Nazis book and vice versa. It seems very limiting and more like a con than a pro. How big of an issue is it if I know the other book? If for example I want to replay the campaign but playing the other side? Or worse, if in the middle of campaign with one friend I would like to start the campaign with someone else but that person would like to play as a side that I am playing in the other campaign?
I mean, that's for every individual person to gauge what they're comfortable doing. I think it's probably fine if you've played through the whole campaign.
Pre-ordered this game and will happily play the game as either the Wehrmacht or Red Army....
Played Undaunted Normandy and Undaunted Africa. Neither of those games had Nazi's in them either.
I am a communist but I am also a trotskyist so I am not that hung up on Soviet Union post-Stalin-stabbing-the-revolution-in-the-back. I do however know which side of the two I'd always prefer given the choice. :P
Stellar review. Looking forward very much to getting my own copy as I very much enjoyed regular Undaunted, just never got the expansions.
✌
Nope. War.
People most certainly will wear shirts with the hammer and sickle, fly flags with it at political rallies, and use it on social media profiles. Tis not as you say.
And a shame it is! What a cherry-picking of un-experienced history 🍒
"Is Memoir '44 that boardgame?"
Welp, I guess I don't have to watch further. Too bad.
Bad timing for a review on this style of game IMHO.