@@thomaslance5428 there has been times I have made a life choice or decided not to do something because it carried a risk of me dying and I refuse to go before a dream of spring
@@Manterok Nope. GRRM has made it very clear in multiple interviews that he will never allow anyone to finish his novels should he die before they are completed. He has left stict instructions with wife, children and numerous lawyers to destroy what remains and to sue anyone who even attempts a fiction in the same world he created. He has always had a zero tolerance for this kind of stuff in any if his works.
Prester is a good choice for the POV, and you're right that GRRM probably built him up in Jaime's estimation for that reason. Personally though, I hope it's Lady Sybell Westerling (Spicer). Of all the characters on that wagon train, hers is the head I'd most like to see into. She could tell us a lot about Tywin's machinations on the Red Wedding, the politics of the Westerlands and Riverlands, and her own family history, including the magic of her grandmother, Maggy the Frog. Plus, having Nymeria kill someone who betrayed the Starks would be great poetic justice! Great video as always.
I like this a lot and can see some good potential. But Martin isn't clever enough. I have no hope he can pull it off. Give Sanderson the notes and let him finish it in my son's lifetime.
If we don't get to get inside her head, we will def still get some shit on her family background. There is no way around that in text. You will get some satisfation-but! There is some background in Fire and Blood and some in what Kevan says about her when talking about how he would let his son marry a Westerling...but never a Spicer. That Westerling was ill to marry her lol
SO HAPPY YOU MENTIONED HIM SAYING THE POV MIGHT NOT DIE. I’ve been repeating it for years and all the big channels ignore it and - it just feels great to see it in a video.
Chett didn't die in his POV. He wet his pants but he didn't die till a later Samwell chapter. It's silly to say epilogue or prologue POV characters die given this blatant "exception". The "epilogue" to A Game of Thrones though might have ended with the death and resurrection of Dany. There's that mysterious shift in POV where we're told what other characters see finding Dany in the remains of the funeral pyre. A similar shift was noted in a Victarion chapter.
Not sure if this is just a coincidence but: AGOT - beyond the wall ACOK - in the south ASOS - beyond the wall AFFC - in the south ADWD - beyond the wall Somewhere in the south seems a safe bet. I agree with the person who said Sybelle Spicer for the PoV. Stoneheart attacking Jeyne's transport seems an excellent shout.
I think that the wolf pack directly attacking 400 soldiers is a bit too much. My idea is that it's the Blackfish and Riverlands survivors who launch an attack, and as they win the Lannister forces scatter. That's where the wolves come in, hunting down the fleeing Lannisters.
My guess is POV will be Sybelle Spicer. That in the prologue will have Jeyne westerling caravan being intercepted by lady stoneheart. Catelyn will capture Jeyne & execute Sybelle.
The timing is all wrong for that. They leave riverrun mid dance of dragons. In that time Jaime has travelled to raventree lifted the siege gone to penny tree run off with Brienne. Then have enough time for word to get back to kings landing when Cersei was still in jail. Then Cersei has her walk of punishment then kevan is killed by Varys. If the caravan was attacked we would have heard about it in the last book.
The one thing that makes me doubt it will be her POV is that she sort of already dumped out her whole purse for Jaime Lannister - she told him everything she did while conspiring against Robb, so what else is there to learn from her as opposed to being within an unknown entity? I like that the prologue POVs are nearly unheard-of characters because we get entirely fresh information.
Thank you for not abandoning your channel after the disappointments of season 7&8 like what seemed like lot of game of thrones/a song of ice and fire channels on UA-cam did
Great analysis and assessment! I've actually kind of said goodbye to the books because I can no longer believe that the series will be completed - but you've given me a renewed approach today, as well as you obviously know the books. The only thing that bothers me are the film images, because the film version completely lost me after the second or third season and I just found it absurd by the end.
I'm glad Martin doesn't feel chained to bad tv writers. It's like they didn't know what they were doing, at least towards the end, writing themselves into corners. Martin, on the other hand, has had this stuff stewing in his subconscious for YEARS.
I think what happened is that Martin’s ending was not too far off from the ending in the show, which had terrible reception. So he had to toss out years of work and try to rewrite something else. Combine that with being sidetracked by dozens of different projects to build his wealth, and you have a recipe for disaster. This book will not come out before he dies.
This isn’t exactly related to the winds prologue but I wanted to talk about my favorite chapter so far and thought this would be a good community to do it in. I just read the chapter where Brienne, Hyle Hunt, Podrick, and a septon are on their way from maidenpool. The way the septon speaks about the common man’s experience in war and how it breaks them moved me more than any of the other writing in the books. Obviously we see everything from the point of view of the rich and privileged, so anything from a common man’s point of view is interesting to a certain extent, but the emotion conveyed in this part was just incredible. At the end, they ask him which war he was in and he says he was a young boy. Hyle tells him “The war of the ninepenny kings?” “So they called it, though I never saw a King or earned a penny. It was war though. That it was”
Only years later when I read again ADWD I realized the prologue with Varamyr paralleled Jon Snow's ending, suggesting that his soul had entered the Ghost.
I would love it if the prologue is from the perspective of Jon in Ghost. Which would break the rule of prologue POV chacter death in that (A the character is technically already dead and (B will take part in the main action after the prologue. And as for Jayne appearing in that prologue, well it's already been established that the direwolves have a magical awareness of their siblings whereabouts and specific activities. Jon/Ghost has even had a fairly vivid vision of Rickon and Shaggy Dog on a different land mass (Skaggos). So it's perfectly probable that they could have a vision of Nymeria in the Riverlands or the Westerlands. And maybe now that Jon/Ghost are one flesh they will be able to have visions of the Starks who have been separated from their wolves, such as Arya and Sansa. Such a prologue could well forshadow all of the Starks gaining conscious control of their skinchanging abilities.😊 🐺
This is a very good breakdown of possibilities, thank you!! I think you are spot on. Nymeria will attack! My money is on Ser Forley Prester being the point of view. The big question is, will the pack kill Edmure and Jeyne or will he? Could they kill everyone, afterall doesnt matter how big the pack is, 400 soldiers is no joke, right? Or will the soldiers end up killing Nymeria - maybe this prompts Arya to abandon the faceless men and come back to Westeros? She would feel it, right? This could be a good way to solve several threads: wolf pack finished, Edmure and Jeyne dead, Lannisters lose hostages and many soldiers, succession in Riverlands and North gets more open for Sansa to claim it, Arya gets incentive to head back. If the prologue goes this way it would help move the story more quickly. Also, imagine the shock of so many important charcteres dying in the prologue!
Great vid as always IDG. Interesting thoughts / theory IDG , i think this prologue scenario could work really well on many levels. I had been leaning more towards LSh but perhaps underestimated the size of the Lannister force protecting Jeyne's caravan , especially considering their preparedness with them on the alert for any attack. I was between LSh and possibly even the Blackfish maybe converging unknowingly at the same time with the same aim. That would make for an interesting Tully reunion of sorts. Didn't really think of the wolf-pack in this instance , had thought more about the pack helping take out the Freys more specifically but I do like it to intercept Jeyne en route to Casterly Rock. The use of the wolf-pack in the prologue would actually be a fitting introduction in terms of the pack taking action on a grander scale , with ideally more to come from them. And could be the start of the Stark comeback in a sense and a catalyst for them with Arya and beyond.
Shivers up my spine! Nice! I think our man in command is loyal but conflicted -Prester IS LOYAL but has been in the habit of being loyal to the West - _" Gawan's girl?"_ he does not want to harm the child of another ( formerly loyal, mostly loyal) lord of the Westerlands.
I love the theory of Nymeria but I’m going to be hella sad as the stark second saying goes “The lone wolf dies, but the packs survives.” Who left of the stark wolf pack again • ghost (at the wall) • Nymeria ((riverlands)) • Summer (( beyond the wall)) • shaggy dog (( Skagos)) Is this correct?
I'm not so sure Lady Stoneheart would be concerned with Jeyne's wellbeing. At Catelyn Stark she was kind enough, but we do know that she attempted to hang Brienne without allowing her to explain, and most of her merciful side is lost. It's fully possible that Lady Soneheart will be included, but will she try to rescue Catelyn Stark's daughter in law is a bit up in the air.
@QuinnTheGM made a video were he theorized that the POV will be the Maester who assists Jeyne Westerling when she gives birth to Robb's heir. The heir would then be kidnapped/secured by the brotherhood without banners and Lady Stoneheart.
You forgot to mention there is a tendency for a certain type of character to be the POV of the prologue. The first one was beyond the wall, the second one a maester, the third one beyond the wall, the fourth one a maester (or close to it), and lastly, the fifth one was beyond the wall, again. It is likely the POV is a maester Another thing, about Jeyne's hips. Yes, GRRM said it was an author error her description, but I remember it being refered to be the one description made in AFFC, not in ASOS
The other thing about the hips is who was looking at Jeyne. Catelyn, being extremely preoccupied with motherhood and procreation (especially in ASOS, it's a major theme in her chapters), would be much more likely to pay close attention to her son's wife's body. Jaime, on the other hand, has absolutely no reason to find Jeyne's body interesting. All he sees is a thin young girl who isn't ready for any of this. Jaime see a fragile person in need of safety, so the thinness of her frame emphasizes that.
Chett didn't die in his POV. He wet his pants but he didn't die till a later Samwell chapter. It's silly to say epilogue or prologue POV characters die given this blatant "exception". The "epilogue" to A Game of Thrones though might have ended with the death and resurrection of Dany. There's that mysterious shift in POV where we're told what other characters see finding Dany in the remains of the funeral pyre. A similar shift was noted in a Victarion chapter.
While I doubt the Brotherhood would attack 400 men, a smaller force can successfully ambush a larger one if they attain surprise (and this is the Blackfish's country). Perhaps Nymeria's wolf pack attacks the Lannister camp throwing it into chaos and the Blackfish/Brotherhood uses the opportunity to rescue Edmure and/or Jeyne. The problem with that is it requires a degree of co-ordination between Nymeria and the Blackfish/Brotherhood, neither of which seems particularly likely (unless we go with the old stand by, "Bloodraven did it").
The question is WHY Nymeria would make such an attack? If it were Arya's warging influence, then how would saving Jeyne and/or Edmure be relevant? While related to her, she doesn't know them as far as we've seen. How would she have the intelligence to even know about the transport? She wouldn't. She couldn't. That would mean someone else is behind the superpack and Arya's just been around for the ride. Arya's chapter mentions a tree watching, so it could be a , "When in doubt..." situation.
For a practical purpose, it could be due to the size of the company itself. Prey becomes scarce with winter coming, so the wolves attack as much for survival as anything influenced by magic.
I like this, that opening of Jeyne and/or Edmure being killed in an attack by wolves, which while defeating the enemy comes at the cost of a family member and/or key player, could also foreshadow Rickon Stark's death during the Battle of the Bastards. It could be his funeral in the last chapter, not necessarily the battle itself.
I don't think Edmure is going to die, if not then who's gonna rule the Riverlands at the end of the story? Plus he's shown to care about the common people more than the average lord and I don't think Martin would punished him that easily.
careful you will have his fanboys saying you dont deserve anything from him and shit when all george has to do is say he cant finish the books and people will just go on their merry way
Ok now, look. I get that Qyburn is a certified mad genius and all, but even he has limits. How could he possibly fit an entire horse inside of that suit of armour, oversized though it may be?
I would love a Forley Prester POV because having a chapter from the POV of a old and expierenced knight is the perfect opportunity to get more random lore about the previous conflicts in Westeros like Robert's Rebellion.
Ooooooh, yeah! He would definitely have been a young man during the uprising of the Kingswood Brotherhood, maybe even a teenager during the war of the Ninepenny Kings!
Its honestly just a race against his health, i some times think things like him wanting 2 be mre like Tolken put Winds in his will... sick of getting hopes up and impossible puting it in the back of ur mind coz spot on vids like this pop up every week. Pffffttt 🤞
@@burntorangehorn I know. Some were not even meant to be published. My point is Tolkien finished his story, the rest is more his life's work that he started long before LotR even came into his mind.
@@00Kuja00 Tolkien had planned to publish a Silmarillion even before publishing LotR. It was basically as published (some details likely would've changed), but with the three main stories (Beren & Luthien, the story of Turin and then The Fall of Gondolin) taking several pages like The Hobbit. He never finished it. A lot of that stuff was meant to be published at some point.
@@San_Vito Reading some of his letters, and his son's reasoning in each new published work I got a different view. But ofc I could be wrong. My point is that LotR was finished, and the rest was more Tolkien's life work/legacy which in it's nature "would never be finished" so to speak.
Based on your well done video, I’m guessing the pov is a Lannister guard who gets attacked by an interested party that would like to save Jane. Great video!!
I've long since bought into the idea that GRRM either doesn't know how to finish the series or simply doesn't really want to. It's not like he hasn't been writing - he's written lots of things since ADWD. 13 years since the last book isn't simply writer's block - he either doesn't know how to finish it or doesn't care to because he's bored with it.
@@PalmelaHanderson I remember when HBO announced a host of new shows, and a fan asked him if he was going to be involved in one, and he, not reading the room at all, said, no I will be involved in all four!
I like the video. I always wanted Ilyn Payne to go with Forley and act as the POV - then get eaten by Arya/Nymeria at the end. This would not only get a name off of Arya’s list personally, but also give us an insight into reading a POV chapter through a tongueless man (foreshadowing of what’s to come with Tyrion if you believe that theory) Alas, I’m fairly certain GRRM confirmed that Ilyn would not be in the POV 😢
I can see your point. Still, there are questions, for example - what part of the magic will be revealed in this prologue. May be that Catelyn's resurrection is similar with the wights resurrection magic, the God of Light and the Others being "opposite side of the same coin"? Also what exactly the role of Jane will be - I am pretty sure she is not pregnant, so may be Catelyn will want to kill/sacrifice her? This is all based on the assumption the brotherhood are the attackers. It will be interesting if one of them realizes that the wolf is Nymeria and that Arya is alive. Will that make Catelyn look fro her, forsaking her revenge?
I don't see dead Cat as necessarily trying to rescue anyone, be it her brother or daughter in law. She is more on a vengeance quest nowadays, and it's relatively safe to assume that she won't launch a deadly attempt on attacking a 400 men guard. From a story point of view, these characters have already played a role in the downfall of Robb, they are not necessary anymore to advance the plot, let aside for a highly hypotetical and partially debunked heir (which GRR doesn't need, since he already has 5 potential living heirs for Winterfell, although only Jon Snow and "Arya-Jeyne" is publicly known to be alive). However... If anyone, she would be more likely to go rescue "Arya-Jeyne", knowing that Arya is still alive and thinking that Jeyne is her and married to Ramsay Bolton.
It alternates between north of the wall and a maester or someone studying to be a maester. Maesters are good povs because of their proximity to important people. If Jeyne will be in the prologue, then it will be whatever Maester is closest to her.
The Arya quote also hints at a tree watching the wolves. It's possible even that Bran uses some tree magic to aid the wolf pack in their attack on the Lanister force heading to Casterly Rock. I just don't recall exactly what sort of magic he might use or what sort of things he could know about that Lanister force.
I hope the Blackfish is the prologue. I loved Kevan being an epilogue character since he is a character that we have seen quite a lot of before his epilogue and I still remember how i felt way back when i saw him as the POV to the epilogue.
Hadn't occurred to me before, but a Jeyne prologue where she's captured by and meets lady stoneheart, revealing the fates of pod and hyle hunt, would be fantastic whether she lives or dies.
3:55 I think the prologue will feature Jeyne Stark being moved from River Run to Casterly Rock and being rescued by Lady Stoneheart (the magical element of the chapter). Since GRRM also said there will not be any new POV characters, the chapter will be from the POV of Catelyn Stark, who will die at the end of the chapter. Either her body will be totally destroyed, or Catelyn loses the war of wills with the Stoneheart spectre, or she finds out that Jeyne gave birth to Robb’s heir and “gives up the ghost” to save her grandchild from death. Has Edmure been a POV before?
Prester choosing not to order Jeyne's shooting is quite possible. His reaction to Jaime bringing her up was surprise and shock at the idea of "sweet Jeyne" being dangerous, so it would fit if he does let her escape if the train were to be attacked
How epic a prologue that would be , the descend of a Unnatural amount of wolf Carnage at the Center of It , A Great Magical Beast, a Horse Sized Direwolf , like the DeadKings wolf is, the Reverent Level Mauling - Death
He said in a live stream that he's refreshing some videos, hopefully with new information coming with the Tourney at Harrenhall stage play. 👀 They'll be back!
I hadn't seen that quote about who would be in the prologue, but I thought it would be cool to have a prologue of some of the Nights Watch people John sends to Hardholm. Either as a survivor or getting there too late and seeing all the wights rise up.
My appetite to reread the series, as it stands, has been wetted. I just have to complete the Wheel of Time series, (book 13 currently), then I'll get back into A Song of Ice and Fire. I was looking to wait till Winds of Winter will come out and re-read in full context, as I have found with WOT, the disjointed effect of needing to wait for the next book to come out, really made it hard to keep track of events. I feel ASOIAF needs to be treated the same way, so probably again when A Dream of Spring (?) comes out, then again, is it possible GRRM might publish both at the same time, or in very quick sequence? The discussion here, about the prologue, is very intriguing...
Actually, where does Jayne fit in the world right now? Her family are Lannister loyalists. She was married to Robb for a short time, is not pregnant, and as far as she's aware, all Starks are dead (at least presumed dead). Tullys are distant kin through marriage, out of power and luck. Her prolonged stay with her was necessitated by circumstances. If the pack frees her and Edmure, where she goes next? Does she tag along with Edmure and goes somewhere? The secretly living Starks don't know her, should she go North and barter a place with them as Robb's widow to live with them for the rest of her life? Does she aim for the Wall and Jon, Robb's much loved brother? She is only 15 or 16, she could live a long life still that would make this entire thing but a blip. Is surrendering to her mother the best for her, after all? She could be a marriage option for the next Lord of Winterfell, had Rickon been older than 6. But Catelyn went from Brandon to Ned, could being matched with Jon be Jayne's fate? Could she fake an heir or be convinced to fake an heir?
A common theme in the prologues that you didn't mention is that books 1, 3, and 5 include the Others. While books 2 and 4 included a maester (or maester in training). I wouldn't be surprised if the POV was a minor maester who dies somehow.
There’s so many ways for this to go. Jon Snow’s second life through Ghost, since he’s a warg. Hodor, being a sort of close companion to Bran and a victim of Bran’s abuse via Bran using Hodor as a skin suit. There’s even that crazy girl who was sleeping with Euron, the baseborn one that betrayed her family to him and thought herself safe by being pregnant with his child. Lots of interesting choices.
Damn. I remember when this channel has like 20k subscribers. 711k is crazy. Shoutout to Robert for all the hard work.
Bump, bump, bump this to top, everybody to the bumpy bump!
Right! I do too! Robert is a legend!
712k now
its 712 now
714!
I'm glad I'm not elderly... My grandfather is about to turn 92 years old and has been waiting on this book for almost two decades.
I don't know whether to laugh or cry at that.
I'm sorry bro. That's one reason I wish I could live forever. Someone will finish this series one day
@@thomaslance5428 there has been times I have made a life choice or decided not to do something because it carried a risk of me dying and I refuse to go before a dream of spring
@@Manterok Nope. GRRM has made it very clear in multiple interviews that he will never allow anyone to finish his novels should he die before they are completed. He has left stict instructions with wife, children and numerous lawyers to destroy what remains and to sue anyone who even attempts a fiction in the same world he created. He has always had a zero tolerance for this kind of stuff in any if his works.
@@Manterok hope not.
Prester is a good choice for the POV, and you're right that GRRM probably built him up in Jaime's estimation for that reason. Personally though, I hope it's Lady Sybell Westerling (Spicer). Of all the characters on that wagon train, hers is the head I'd most like to see into. She could tell us a lot about Tywin's machinations on the Red Wedding, the politics of the Westerlands and Riverlands, and her own family history, including the magic of her grandmother, Maggy the Frog. Plus, having Nymeria kill someone who betrayed the Starks would be great poetic justice! Great video as always.
Great point, I totally forgot that she was Maggy the Frog's granddaughter...
I take every bit of justice for Robb I can take :')
I like this a lot and can see some good potential. But Martin isn't clever enough. I have no hope he can pull it off. Give Sanderson the notes and let him finish it in my son's lifetime.
If we don't get to get inside her head, we will def still get some shit on her family background. There is no way around that in text. You will get some satisfation-but! There is some background in Fire and Blood and some in what Kevan says about her when talking about how he would let his son marry a Westerling...but never a Spicer. That Westerling was ill to marry her lol
Because she can give so much information is why GRRM won't use her. He would rather obfuscate things. That's why we like his writing.
Jeyne Westerling is the granddaughter of Maggy the Frog??
SO HAPPY YOU MENTIONED HIM SAYING THE POV MIGHT NOT DIE. I’ve been repeating it for years and all the big channels ignore it and - it just feels great to see it in a video.
I'm more worried about the author dying...
@@ObsydianShade My fear, exactly!!!!
Perhaps now in the prologue, someone will be born or reborn
Chett didn't die in his POV. He wet his pants but he didn't die till a later Samwell chapter. It's silly to say epilogue or prologue POV characters die given this blatant "exception".
The "epilogue" to A Game of Thrones though might have ended with the death and resurrection of Dany. There's that mysterious shift in POV where we're told what other characters see finding Dany in the remains of the funeral pyre. A similar shift was noted in a Victarion chapter.
Catelyn died though.
Not sure if this is just a coincidence but:
AGOT - beyond the wall
ACOK - in the south
ASOS - beyond the wall
AFFC - in the south
ADWD - beyond the wall
Somewhere in the south seems a safe bet. I agree with the person who said Sybelle Spicer for the PoV. Stoneheart attacking Jeyne's transport seems an excellent shout.
And the two south of the wall were a maester and someone studying to be a maester. Kind of narrows it down
I think that the wolf pack directly attacking 400 soldiers is a bit too much.
My idea is that it's the Blackfish and Riverlands survivors who launch an attack, and as they win the Lannister forces scatter. That's where the wolves come in, hunting down the fleeing Lannisters.
Plus, George likes to create puzzles. Having multiple forces add to the confusion, helping him to obfuscate things.
The Reeds could finally get involved.
If I ever get famous enough for a biography, I want Robert to narrate it lol. Most calming voice in the genre
04:48 Robert misspoke here. The Tullys were Lords Paramount of the Riverlands, not the Reach, as most of you will know.
My guess is POV will be Sybelle Spicer. That in the prologue will have Jeyne westerling caravan being intercepted by lady stoneheart. Catelyn will capture Jeyne & execute Sybelle.
Excellent thinking, I suspect you may be correct
The timing is all wrong for that. They leave riverrun mid dance of dragons. In that time Jaime has travelled to raventree lifted the siege gone to penny tree run off with Brienne. Then have enough time for word to get back to kings landing when Cersei was still in jail. Then Cersei has her walk of punishment then kevan is killed by Varys. If the caravan was attacked we would have heard about it in the last book.
@@kasey670 I haven't read the books, but didn't the dance of dragons happen well over a century before this series started?
@@allthatishere fifth book is called "A Dance with Dragons", that's what they probably meant
This is a fantastic shout. Fits perfectly.
Thank you for running through each prologue character. Saved me googling it lol
This channel is the only thing that still keeps me in this fascinating but unfinished universe. Kudos to Robert!
My guess is Jeyne's mother Lady Spicer will be the pov.
It would be poetic justice if she's killed by a wolf. ^^
The one thing that makes me doubt it will be her POV is that she sort of already dumped out her whole purse for Jaime Lannister - she told him everything she did while conspiring against Robb, so what else is there to learn from her as opposed to being within an unknown entity? I like that the prologue POVs are nearly unheard-of characters because we get entirely fresh information.
@@Levacque good point!
At this point if the book doesn’t come out soon, the fandom will figure out everything on its own. This makes perfect sense !
Thank you for not abandoning your channel after the disappointments of season 7&8 like what seemed like lot of game of thrones/a song of ice and fire channels on UA-cam did
Great analysis and assessment! I've actually kind of said goodbye to the books because I can no longer believe that the series will be completed - but you've given me a renewed approach today, as well as you obviously know the books. The only thing that bothers me are the film images, because the film version completely lost me after the second or third season and I just found it absurd by the end.
I'm glad Martin doesn't feel chained to bad tv writers. It's like they didn't know what they were doing, at least towards the end, writing themselves into corners. Martin, on the other hand, has had this stuff stewing in his subconscious for YEARS.
at this point it's stewing for so many years i hope it did not fizzle away
Writing himself into corners for decades you mean.
Writing himself into corners for decades, you mean?
I think what happened is that Martin’s ending was not too far off from the ending in the show, which had terrible reception. So he had to toss out years of work and try to rewrite something else. Combine that with being sidetracked by dozens of different projects to build his wealth, and you have a recipe for disaster. This book will not come out before he dies.
@@Chaos_God_of_Fatewhy copy
This isn’t exactly related to the winds prologue but I wanted to talk about my favorite chapter so far and thought this would be a good community to do it in. I just read the chapter where Brienne, Hyle Hunt, Podrick, and a septon are on their way from maidenpool. The way the septon speaks about the common man’s experience in war and how it breaks them moved me more than any of the other writing in the books. Obviously we see everything from the point of view of the rich and privileged, so anything from a common man’s point of view is interesting to a certain extent, but the emotion conveyed in this part was just incredible. At the end, they ask him which war he was in and he says he was a young boy. Hyle tells him “The war of the ninepenny kings?”
“So they called it, though I never saw a King or earned a penny. It was war though. That it was”
Only years later when I read again ADWD I realized the prologue with Varamyr paralleled Jon Snow's ending, suggesting that his soul had entered the Ghost.
I would love it if the prologue is from the perspective of Jon in Ghost. Which would break the rule of prologue POV chacter death in that (A the character is technically already dead and (B will take part in the main action after the prologue. And as for Jayne appearing in that prologue, well it's already been established that the direwolves have a magical awareness of their siblings whereabouts and specific activities. Jon/Ghost has even had a fairly vivid vision of Rickon and Shaggy Dog on a different land mass (Skaggos). So it's perfectly probable that they could have a vision of Nymeria in the Riverlands or the Westerlands.
And maybe now that Jon/Ghost are one flesh they will be able to have visions of the Starks who have been separated from their wolves, such as Arya and Sansa. Such a prologue could well forshadow all of the Starks gaining conscious control of their skinchanging abilities.😊 🐺
Its about Maester Jon Vance.
Preston Jacobs took care of writing it for us.
This is a very good breakdown of possibilities, thank you!! I think you are spot on. Nymeria will attack! My money is on Ser Forley Prester being the point of view. The big question is, will the pack kill Edmure and Jeyne or will he? Could they kill everyone, afterall doesnt matter how big the pack is, 400 soldiers is no joke, right? Or will the soldiers end up killing Nymeria - maybe this prompts Arya to abandon the faceless men and come back to Westeros? She would feel it, right? This could be a good way to solve several threads: wolf pack finished, Edmure and Jeyne dead, Lannisters lose hostages and many soldiers, succession in Riverlands and North gets more open for Sansa to claim it, Arya gets incentive to head back. If the prologue goes this way it would help move the story more quickly. Also, imagine the shock of so many important charcteres dying in the prologue!
It will definitely set the tone for the book of swathes of characters dying.
Very interested to hear IDG's educated guess. Ty so much for the continued amazing content.
Great vid as always IDG. Interesting thoughts / theory IDG , i think this prologue scenario could work really well on many levels. I had been leaning more towards LSh but perhaps underestimated the size of the Lannister force protecting Jeyne's caravan , especially considering their preparedness with them on the alert for any attack. I was between LSh and possibly even the Blackfish maybe converging unknowingly at the same time with the same aim. That would make for an interesting Tully reunion of sorts.
Didn't really think of the wolf-pack in this instance , had thought more about the pack helping take out the Freys more specifically but I do like it to intercept Jeyne en route to Casterly Rock. The use of the wolf-pack in the prologue would actually be a fitting introduction in terms of the pack taking action on a grander scale , with ideally more to come from them. And could be the start of the Stark comeback in a sense and a catalyst for them with Arya and beyond.
In deep geek and quin the gm in the same day. God is good
Praise the Old Gods and the New!
We’re eating good today
All the time.
The Bible volume 2 hitting the shelves long before I get to read this prologue
The Bible 2, Electric Boogaloo.
the bible 2 the newer testament staring jod and gesus
You uhhhhhh... You know that the Bible already got a Volume 2, right? Old and New?
Part 3. Sadly there is already an old and new testament
You mean the Quran...
I think this is a really cool prediction, well thought out. Nice work!
Shivers up my spine! Nice! I think our man in command is loyal but conflicted -Prester IS LOYAL but has been in the habit of being loyal to the West - _" Gawan's girl?"_ he does not want to harm the child of another ( formerly loyal, mostly loyal) lord of the Westerlands.
I love the theory of Nymeria but I’m going to be hella sad as the stark second saying goes
“The lone wolf dies, but the packs survives.”
Who left of the stark wolf pack again
• ghost (at the wall)
• Nymeria ((riverlands))
• Summer (( beyond the wall))
• shaggy dog (( Skagos))
Is this correct?
I believe so.
Glory to The Riverlands! 🐟
great job as always, Robert. can't wait for the next one. thanks!
Great video, it's a shame that we will never know since this book will never see the light of day 😢
Thank you again Robert
Mormont's Raven (Jacqen Hgar) is Hodor because it is in Ser Pounce's mouth inside Brynden Rivers' weirwood network.
I'm not so sure Lady Stoneheart would be concerned with Jeyne's wellbeing. At Catelyn Stark she was kind enough, but we do know that she attempted to hang Brienne without allowing her to explain, and most of her merciful side is lost. It's fully possible that Lady Soneheart will be included, but will she try to rescue Catelyn Stark's daughter in law is a bit up in the air.
❤❤❤shout out to the best narrator who brings a channel that I could listen to forever
@QuinnTheGM made a video were he theorized that the POV will be the Maester who assists Jeyne Westerling when she gives birth to Robb's heir. The heir would then be kidnapped/secured by the brotherhood without banners and Lady Stoneheart.
That makes no sense - we already know she’s not pregnant.
You forgot to mention there is a tendency for a certain type of character to be the POV of the prologue. The first one was beyond the wall, the second one a maester, the third one beyond the wall, the fourth one a maester (or close to it), and lastly, the fifth one was beyond the wall, again.
It is likely the POV is a maester
Another thing, about Jeyne's hips. Yes, GRRM said it was an author error her description, but I remember it being refered to be the one description made in AFFC, not in ASOS
The other thing about the hips is who was looking at Jeyne. Catelyn, being extremely preoccupied with motherhood and procreation (especially in ASOS, it's a major theme in her chapters), would be much more likely to pay close attention to her son's wife's body. Jaime, on the other hand, has absolutely no reason to find Jeyne's body interesting. All he sees is a thin young girl who isn't ready for any of this. Jaime see a fragile person in need of safety, so the thinness of her frame emphasizes that.
14:32 I do love the idea of the super pack getting involved.
Chett didn't die in his POV. He wet his pants but he didn't die till a later Samwell chapter. It's silly to say epilogue or prologue POV characters die given this blatant "exception".
The "epilogue" to A Game of Thrones though might have ended with the death and resurrection of Dany. There's that mysterious shift in POV where we're told what other characters see finding Dany in the remains of the funeral pyre. A similar shift was noted in a Victarion chapter.
I think you nailed it.
What I think is that your optimism about Winds of Winter being published is remarkable. I 've quit hoping.
Varameer Six Skins could be a prelude to Jon taking over the superpack
It was a prelude to Jon warging into Ghost upon his death
Another great video. Love listening to you talk about agot. Keep upnthe great work. Looking forward to the next one
While I doubt the Brotherhood would attack 400 men, a smaller force can successfully ambush a larger one if they attain surprise (and this is the Blackfish's country). Perhaps Nymeria's wolf pack attacks the Lannister camp throwing it into chaos and the Blackfish/Brotherhood uses the opportunity to rescue Edmure and/or Jeyne. The problem with that is it requires a degree of co-ordination between Nymeria and the Blackfish/Brotherhood, neither of which seems particularly likely (unless we go with the old stand by, "Bloodraven did it").
I love these videos. Thank you for sharing your thoughts with us!
What a masterpiece of a video, once again!
The question is WHY Nymeria would make such an attack? If it were Arya's warging influence, then how would saving Jeyne and/or Edmure be relevant? While related to her, she doesn't know them as far as we've seen. How would she have the intelligence to even know about the transport? She wouldn't. She couldn't.
That would mean someone else is behind the superpack and Arya's just been around for the ride. Arya's chapter mentions a tree watching, so it could be a , "When in doubt..." situation.
Are we blaming Bloodraven or Bran here?
For a practical purpose, it could be due to the size of the company itself. Prey becomes scarce with winter coming, so the wolves attack as much for survival as anything influenced by magic.
@@thing_under_the_stairs I'm going with Bloodraven as I doubt Bran will have fully taken over the job by the first chapter.
@@carlrood4457 Leaving out the possibilities of all time-travelling Bran theories... for now. ;)
I like this, that opening of Jeyne and/or Edmure being killed in an attack by wolves, which while defeating the enemy comes at the cost of a family member and/or key player, could also foreshadow Rickon Stark's death during the Battle of the Bastards. It could be his funeral in the last chapter, not necessarily the battle itself.
I don't think Edmure is going to die, if not then who's gonna rule the Riverlands at the end of the story? Plus he's shown to care about the common people more than the average lord and I don't think Martin would punished him that easily.
We deserve the Winds of Winter, GRRM must finish the books
careful you will have his fanboys saying you dont deserve anything from him and shit when all george has to do is say he cant finish the books and people will just go on their merry way
So glad we'll get some insight about the wolves. They are such huge part of the story and they deserve a conclusion. Particularly Nymeria
Masterful video my man!
it will be tyrek lannister revealing how he come to be Ser Robert Strong
Ok now, look. I get that Qyburn is a certified mad genius and all, but even he has limits. How could he possibly fit an entire horse inside of that suit of armour, oversized though it may be?
I would love a Forley Prester POV because having a chapter from the POV of a old and expierenced knight is the perfect opportunity to get more random lore about the previous conflicts in Westeros like Robert's Rebellion.
Ooooooh, yeah! He would definitely have been a young man during the uprising of the Kingswood Brotherhood, maybe even a teenager during the war of the Ninepenny Kings!
@@Levacque exactly!
I fully agree with this.
Thanks for your work! We will get this book one way or another, so let's hope for the best
Its honestly just a race against his health, i some times think things like him wanting 2 be mre like Tolken put Winds in his will... sick of getting hopes up and impossible puting it in the back of ur mind coz spot on vids like this pop up every week. Pffffttt 🤞
What do you mean? Tolkien finished his work, the Lord of the Rings.
@@00Kuja00 That was one book. He left many things unfinished, hence the existence of things like Unfinished Tales and the Silmarillion.
@@burntorangehorn I know. Some were not even meant to be published. My point is Tolkien finished his story, the rest is more his life's work that he started long before LotR even came into his mind.
@@00Kuja00 Tolkien had planned to publish a Silmarillion even before publishing LotR. It was basically as published (some details likely would've changed), but with the three main stories (Beren & Luthien, the story of Turin and then The Fall of Gondolin) taking several pages like The Hobbit. He never finished it.
A lot of that stuff was meant to be published at some point.
@@San_Vito Reading some of his letters, and his son's reasoning in each new published work I got a different view. But ofc I could be wrong. My point is that LotR was finished, and the rest was more Tolkien's life work/legacy which in it's nature "would never be finished" so to speak.
So excited for this video.
Based on your well done video, I’m guessing the pov is a Lannister guard who gets attacked by an interested party that would like to save Jane.
Great video!!
Rhaegar returns 😮
I'll believe that when his son rises from the grave and dragons roam Valyria again.
Somehow Rhaegar returned.
What is dead may never die
I truly wish you would do Dune lore videos.
Thank you so much didn't realize this....after watching got and not reading books and so immersed in all
Nothing because it will never be written
Yeah I’m afraid you’re very right.
😭
I’m confident at least this part has been written
Booo
Oh the prologue is written. That I don’t doubt.
It’ll just never be released
It's been 13 years since ADWD, at this point I've just about lost hope :(
and interest
I've long since bought into the idea that GRRM either doesn't know how to finish the series or simply doesn't really want to. It's not like he hasn't been writing - he's written lots of things since ADWD. 13 years since the last book isn't simply writer's block - he either doesn't know how to finish it or doesn't care to because he's bored with it.
@@PalmelaHanderson I think there's some spite mixed in because everywhere he goes he gets hassled about it too.
@@PalmelaHanderson I remember when HBO announced a host of new shows, and a fan asked him if he was going to be involved in one, and he, not reading the room at all, said, no I will be involved in all four!
A big chunk of Winds of Winter is written already. My best guess: it will come out eventually. We will never see A Dream of Spring.
I like the video. I always wanted Ilyn Payne to go with Forley and act as the POV - then get eaten by Arya/Nymeria at the end. This would not only get a name off of Arya’s list personally, but also give us an insight into reading a POV chapter through a tongueless man (foreshadowing of what’s to come with Tyrion if you believe that theory)
Alas, I’m fairly certain GRRM confirmed that Ilyn would not be in the POV 😢
"Ah theyve guessed it, which means Ill have to change it, and it will take a few extra years for me to rework some plot lines to accomplish this.."
I always love your videos! Could you make a video explaining warging in depth?
Smart theory. I love your channel
I can see your point. Still, there are questions, for example - what part of the magic will be revealed in this prologue. May be that Catelyn's resurrection is similar with the wights resurrection magic, the God of Light and the Others being "opposite side of the same coin"? Also what exactly the role of Jane will be - I am pretty sure she is not pregnant, so may be Catelyn will want to kill/sacrifice her? This is all based on the assumption the brotherhood are the attackers. It will be interesting if one of them realizes that the wolf is Nymeria and that Arya is alive. Will that make Catelyn look fro her, forsaking her revenge?
what will be release first...star citizen or Winds of winter?
Damn, Geek, you make me want to return to the books. But I'm older now and I think I'll wait until WoW actually sees print.
Marvelous! I don't even READ the books. Just a committed Show fan who loves the depth and expansive story discussion here!
You should read the books! They’re incredible!
great video thank you!
I don't see dead Cat as necessarily trying to rescue anyone, be it her brother or daughter in law. She is more on a vengeance quest nowadays, and it's relatively safe to assume that she won't launch a deadly attempt on attacking a 400 men guard. From a story point of view, these characters have already played a role in the downfall of Robb, they are not necessary anymore to advance the plot, let aside for a highly hypotetical and partially debunked heir (which GRR doesn't need, since he already has 5 potential living heirs for Winterfell, although only Jon Snow and "Arya-Jeyne" is publicly known to be alive). However... If anyone, she would be more likely to go rescue "Arya-Jeyne", knowing that Arya is still alive and thinking that Jeyne is her and married to Ramsay Bolton.
It will just be a troll face released after his death. He's not working on it and he doesn't intend to either.
Thank you for this video, very very good👌
It alternates between north of the wall and a maester or someone studying to be a maester. Maesters are good povs because of their proximity to important people. If Jeyne will be in the prologue, then it will be whatever Maester is closest to her.
The Arya quote also hints at a tree watching the wolves. It's possible even that Bran uses some tree magic to aid the wolf pack in their attack on the Lanister force heading to Casterly Rock. I just don't recall exactly what sort of magic he might use or what sort of things he could know about that Lanister force.
It's one super-pac I can get behind.
I hope the Blackfish is the prologue. I loved Kevan being an epilogue character since he is a character that we have seen quite a lot of before his epilogue and I still remember how i felt way back when i saw him as the POV to the epilogue.
Hadn't occurred to me before, but a Jeyne prologue where she's captured by and meets lady stoneheart, revealing the fates of pod and hyle hunt, would be fantastic whether she lives or dies.
3:55 I think the prologue will feature Jeyne Stark being moved from River Run to Casterly Rock and being rescued by Lady Stoneheart (the magical element of the chapter).
Since GRRM also said there will not be any new POV characters, the chapter will be from the POV of Catelyn Stark, who will die at the end of the chapter. Either her body will be totally destroyed, or Catelyn loses the war of wills with the Stoneheart spectre, or she finds out that Jeyne gave birth to Robb’s heir and “gives up the ghost” to save her grandchild from death.
Has Edmure been a POV before?
Prester choosing not to order Jeyne's shooting is quite possible. His reaction to Jaime bringing her up was surprise and shock at the idea of "sweet Jeyne" being dangerous, so it would fit if he does let her escape if the train were to be attacked
Amazing theory!
George does not care about us or the books anymore it doesn’t take this long to write a book
How epic a prologue that would be , the descend of a Unnatural amount of wolf Carnage at the Center of It , A Great Magical Beast, a Horse Sized Direwolf , like the DeadKings wolf is, the Reverent Level Mauling - Death
11:56 Arya’s Super PAC
You're a great writer!
did your videos about robert’s rebellion get taken down?
He said in a live stream that he's refreshing some videos, hopefully with new information coming with the Tourney at Harrenhall stage play. 👀 They'll be back!
I hadn't seen that quote about who would be in the prologue, but I thought it would be cool to have a prologue of some of the Nights Watch people John sends to Hardholm. Either as a survivor or getting there too late and seeing all the wights rise up.
My appetite to reread the series, as it stands, has been wetted.
I just have to complete the Wheel of Time series, (book 13 currently), then I'll get back into A Song of Ice and Fire.
I was looking to wait till Winds of Winter will come out and re-read in full context, as I have found with WOT, the disjointed effect of needing to wait for the next book to come out, really made it hard to keep track of events.
I feel ASOIAF needs to be treated the same way, so probably again when A Dream of Spring (?) comes out, then again, is it possible GRRM might publish both at the same time, or in very quick sequence?
The discussion here, about the prologue, is very intriguing...
Actually, where does Jayne fit in the world right now? Her family are Lannister loyalists. She was married to Robb for a short time, is not pregnant, and as far as she's aware, all Starks are dead (at least presumed dead). Tullys are distant kin through marriage, out of power and luck. Her prolonged stay with her was necessitated by circumstances. If the pack frees her and Edmure, where she goes next? Does she tag along with Edmure and goes somewhere? The secretly living Starks don't know her, should she go North and barter a place with them as Robb's widow to live with them for the rest of her life? Does she aim for the Wall and Jon, Robb's much loved brother? She is only 15 or 16, she could live a long life still that would make this entire thing but a blip. Is surrendering to her mother the best for her, after all? She could be a marriage option for the next Lord of Winterfell, had Rickon been older than 6. But Catelyn went from Brandon to Ned, could being matched with Jon be Jayne's fate? Could she fake an heir or be convinced to fake an heir?
Will be a fun read for sure
Excellent video
A common theme in the prologues that you didn't mention is that books 1, 3, and 5 include the Others. While books 2 and 4 included a maester (or maester in training). I wouldn't be surprised if the POV was a minor maester who dies somehow.
I'm going to havebto reread these.
Dance's prologue is just brilliantly written, hopefully GRRM has spent as much time and care with Winds'.
How a dream of spring is gonna stay a dream
The worst thing is we'll never know because GRRM's position is if he doesn't finish his work then no one will.
There’s so many ways for this to go.
Jon Snow’s second life through Ghost, since he’s a warg.
Hodor, being a sort of close companion to Bran and a victim of Bran’s abuse via Bran using Hodor as a skin suit.
There’s even that crazy girl who was sleeping with Euron, the baseborn one that betrayed her family to him and thought herself safe by being pregnant with his child.
Lots of interesting choices.