Fun fact: there are only two gods who are aware of the fact that they were made by mortals, Heliod who is angered by this fact, and Kruphix the oldest god in the pantheon who is complacent with this fact. I'd have included Xenagos, but he is dead and part of the Nyx starfield
From the book also learn that Klothys, being old as Kruphyx, is also aware of that and that she isn't bound to mortal belief. Also, Phenax was once mortal, so he might be on to it as well.
@@TheLanach Athreos was also once mortal. In the book we find out that that he was the first mortal to die, and not wanting to be bothered with having to manage all the spirits of the dead, the rest of the gods kinda promoted him and dumped all that hassle on his shoulders.
11:17 this is the most important piece of advice on D&D religiosity. even in the FR it's not about converting someone else to your own god, it's about recognizing how a certain pantheon works, a Cleric of Selune doesn't have to convert a follower of Corellon Larenthian, because they're both members of the same pantheon!!!
Tell that to the Catholics, Jehovas Witnesses, Evangelists, Anglicans, Methodists, Lutherans, Baptists, Pentacostals, Nazarene, Episcopalians and Mormons.
@@jgr7487 Well the examples he gave all worship the same Christian God but they convert each other all the time regardless. I get what you're saying but I thought I'd just drop in to explain what the other guy was saying.
I am endlessly fascinated by this setting and cannot wait to run a game in it and one day, maybe, play in it. (I'm the primary DM of, like, three groups.)
"[Heliod] is Lawful Good." "Someone who is fanatically devoted to Heliod is not necessarily out there saying, 'You cannot worship Iroas, you must worship Heliod'." It's weird that he said these things, given that the MtG lore tells us the exact opposite. Heliod murdered a champion of his for becoming too powerful, out of jealousy and fear of his own position. And Heliod subsequently instigated a war among his followers against the followers of every other god, in order to starve them of worship.
That god at 1:20 and in the thumbnail gives me some mad B Dave Walters vibes, and that man would make a /mean/ god in a campaign. The undisputed Baron of the Pantheon.
That was Keranos, God of Storms, Enlightenment, and quick intellect. He is actually a LESSER god, to put things in perspective. He is mostly neutral, he hates mortals because they are too slow to make snappy decisions, or too impulsive to make good decisions. That said, he does have his acolytes.
I might be wrong but across the editions hasn't there been a LOT of canonical history about the Gods themselves and their interactions ? But i guess the equivalent is still much more immediate on Theros.
What happens if someone for fearun or grey hawk, comes to theros? Do all the gods show up and demand belief? Are the characters over whelmed with a sense of faith?
No, but if you take certain actions without making some kind of offering it may go poorly for you and open up adventure opportunities. Stuff like the characters making an ocean journey without making an offering to Thassa can result in heavy storms or maybe harpies being sent your way to show her displeasure. A cleric may offer healing in a way that offends one of the gods, like breaking a curse they placed on someone as punishment, resulting in that god cursing them to become a medusa over a period of weeks. Things that force players to figure out what is going on, why it's happening, and how to stop it. There's a lot you can do from a fish out of water angle, but I don't think the gods will come after you unless you offend them directly in some way.
matt murray "Do all the gods show up and demand belief?" No. The residents of Theros are enough to fuel the gods' power. A random adventuring party isn't worth their notice unless they start becoming notable in the world or unless they petition the gods for something. "Are the characters overwhelmed by a sense of faith?" No. The magic of Theros doesn't impose anything by itself on the characters, it just takes strong beliefs and makes them manifest, which can cause a feedback loop and strengthen the belief in that person, place, thing, or concept. A character may become overwhelmed by a sense of awe and wonder and find faith due to what they experience, but that's not something the magic of the plane is responsible for.
same things that happens when a tourist visits a country during an election, nobody really cares. Unless you're doing something to interfere with things.
If someone transports to Theros, frankly only one God will immediately take notice, as Kruphix is the god of the future, but is also made up of all the intelligence and memories of everyone on the plain of Theros, so he will suddenly gain their experiences. That said, Theros is no stranger to people traveling to and from it, so he isn't likely to do much unless he predicts a future where this person destroys Theros. Otherwise, the other gods will only take notice of someone does something that gets them noticed, for better or for worse. The magic on Nyx doesn't compel anyone, its simple a parallel plain to Theros that looks like the night sky. It takes the beliefs of people and shapes them into being. The more people that believe that, the stronger and more real it becomes. Recently in the lore, there were even two outside meddlers who each tried to create/become a god by abusing the effects of Nyx... though neither lasted long when the rest of the pantheon took notice.
@@MakutaNazo Klothys, the God of Destiny, would also take notice, as suddenly new threads would begin to appear that are beyond their control. This came around when the Planeswalker Elspeth was knocking things around the pantheon. Elspeth's Planeswalker soul had disentangled her threads with the weave of Theros. To correct this, Klothys *created a Planeswalker*, Calix, to bring Elspeth's soul back into the weave of Theros. Depending on where on the timeline your "show up on Theros from another world" timeline happens, Klothys might very well send Agents of Fate to bring them into the weave, and thus under the control of Fate.
So far that only happened once with the Satyr Xenagos. Most mortals on Theros don't even realize that belief is it's own power. And since Xenagos's ascension and subsequent destruction, the gods have been making sure that doesn't happen again. Doesn't mean it won't ever happen, but it'll be rare.
They mention in the book too it was a ritual Xenagos did that many are not aware of. Also that your single character cannot change the world over night through pure belief. It would take the thoughts/dreams of many many people and it would take years possibly centuries to alter/change the divinity of someone or their personality even. (Example believing Heliod isn't an arrogant jerk who isn't about to smite you will not change anything in time) With that said though that doesnt change the fact that cultists/cults do exist that worship some of these Gods differently through ritual sacrifice of other humanoids etc
There have been mortals who ascended into godhood in the history of Theros. Phenax was the first mortal to escape the Underworld. Xenagos was a Satyr who pulled off a ritual to bring himself into godhood. It's by no means a common occurrence, but it is absolutely a plot that a DM could fit into a campaign.
Yup there's an underworld, and there's also chained titans just like in the greek mythos. Dunno if they'll touch on in the D&D book, but you can google the MTG lore. Also i'm pretty sure you can just recreate whatever your table's favorite greek legend is and just play it out. Haktos is Achiles, Anax and Cymede are Leonidas and Gorgo and so on.
If the returned pop up, that is going to be interesting. Because those are your people that crawl up out of the underworld, but they've lost all sense of self to the Styx equivalent river and become an undead creature with only their death mask as a clue as to whom they once were.
Nyx is Olympus from Greek Mythos, or the Warp from 40k. In Theros the night's sky - Nyx - is the place where our subconscious magically creates conscious entities that live on and grow on their own, feeding on our continuous background believe. Which is basically related to the cult of the dead of ancient greece (and posibly other older religions) - your soul lived in in the afterlife as long as the living kept thinking and talking about you.
"gods are dependent on the belief of mortals." Could be worked into a 5e adaptation of Planescape. (Honestly, whenever a new book comes out, I think about what I can use in Planescape)
The story of the original theros block was about the evil satyr xenagos disrupting the pantheon and becoming a god. In that same block, he gets ganged up on by Elspeth and several other gods and dies in Nyx, ceasing to exist. Klothys was actually the original green/red god of the pantheon, but has been in the underworld jailing the titans the entire time, which is why we only see her show up in Theros Beyond Death, because the underworld cracking open violates her control over destiny and fate. Fun fact, you can see her face carved into stone on some of the art in the original theros block, like the original art Temple of Abandon, or the scene where Elspeth and Ajani are climbing a ruined temple to face xenagos in the realm of Nyx.
Basically any unjust hierarchy in history, where the ones at the top of the hierarchy want everyone below them to forget that the power structure is based on the consent of the masses. Capitalism is one of these, of course, but so is Autocracy, Monarchy, Dictatorship, Oligarchy, and even Democracy (if the political establishment begins to rig the democratic process in their favor and suppress voting that would oust them). The antidote to this is, of course, for the people to understand the power they collectively have, and never let themselves (or their leaders) forget it.
Since its modeled after Greco-Roman mythos its kind of a generational push-pull. The titans came first, so at that time we weren't really able to say who was more powerful. Then the gods were begotten. My understanding of Theros is to say that they were the literal manifestations of the prayer of mortals and thus were "designed" to be able to best the titans. In Greco-Roman mythology, its more of a next generation eventually becoming the rulers of the previous thing. The gods were born from the titans, but then they grew up and seized power from them.
The titans are objectively more powerful than the deities of theros, and are not dependant on mortal worship, they were bound by the elder members of the theros pantheon, particularly Klothis the god of fate and destiny and kruphux the god of horizons (think liminal spaces and boundaries, like how the horizon is the thing the separates the sky and sea or land). It is possible they were only able to be sealed because of the nature and domains of there two gods
@@nathanmcneill1817 Well Kruphix also maintains the domain of the future, and peoples memories... so destiny and time are both the strongest beliefs in Theros, and neither god apparently needs worship to exist, unlike the others.
Fun fact: there are only two gods who are aware of the fact that they were made by mortals, Heliod who is angered by this fact, and Kruphix the oldest god in the pantheon who is complacent with this fact. I'd have included Xenagos, but he is dead and part of the Nyx starfield
From the book also learn that Klothys, being old as Kruphyx, is also aware of that and that she isn't bound to mortal belief.
Also, Phenax was once mortal, so he might be on to it as well.
@@TheLanach Athreos was also once mortal. In the book we find out that that he was the first mortal to die, and not wanting to be bothered with having to manage all the spirits of the dead, the rest of the gods kinda promoted him and dumped all that hassle on his shoulders.
11:17
this is the most important piece of advice on D&D religiosity. even in the FR it's not about converting someone else to your own god, it's about recognizing how a certain pantheon works, a Cleric of Selune doesn't have to convert a follower of Corellon Larenthian, because they're both members of the same pantheon!!!
Tell that to the Catholics, Jehovas Witnesses, Evangelists, Anglicans, Methodists, Lutherans, Baptists, Pentacostals, Nazarene, Episcopalians and Mormons.
@@jeffbrownstain are you REALLY comparing monotheistic religions with polytheist ones?
@@jgr7487 Well the examples he gave all worship the same Christian God but they convert each other all the time regardless. I get what you're saying but I thought I'd just drop in to explain what the other guy was saying.
I am endlessly fascinated by this setting and cannot wait to run a game in it and one day, maybe, play in it. (I'm the primary DM of, like, three groups.)
Ah, a Forever-Dm
"[Heliod] is Lawful Good."
"Someone who is fanatically devoted to Heliod is not necessarily out there saying, 'You cannot worship Iroas, you must worship Heliod'."
It's weird that he said these things, given that the MtG lore tells us the exact opposite. Heliod murdered a champion of his for becoming too powerful, out of jealousy and fear of his own position. And Heliod subsequently instigated a war among his followers against the followers of every other god, in order to starve them of worship.
Well the point they were making was the pantheon is not split like the guilds of ravnica ;). Heliod is just, special...
I absolutely love this book and I hope they release one for Norse mythology and other mythologies as well
Kaldheim is out rn
@@mrveidt7260 Not a D&D book, at least not yet. It's a card set for Magic: The Gathering
Its wierd how technically the real Greek mythos exists in D&D multiverse and now Theros does as well..
Change the names of the Theros gods to the real Greek gods
I'm excited to see more about Theros.
That god at 1:20 and in the thumbnail gives me some mad B Dave Walters vibes, and that man would make a /mean/ god in a campaign. The undisputed Baron of the Pantheon.
keranos, god of storms
That was Keranos, God of Storms, Enlightenment, and quick intellect. He is actually a LESSER god, to put things in perspective. He is mostly neutral, he hates mortals because they are too slow to make snappy decisions, or too impulsive to make good decisions. That said, he does have his acolytes.
Mortal worships Keranos
Keranos zaps mortals with lightnings
I might be wrong but across the editions hasn't there been a LOT of canonical history about the Gods themselves and their interactions ? But i guess the equivalent is still much more immediate on Theros.
This explanation helped a lot. Thank you
Terry Pratchet was right in Small Gods
so its kind of like in American Gods?
It's an extremely common trope in post-modern theological discourse. That the gods are real, but only because we make them real.
@@Bluecho4 Yeah, real common in various teachings of numerous philosophers and theologians.
What happens if someone for fearun or grey hawk, comes to theros? Do all the gods show up and demand belief? Are the characters over whelmed with a sense of faith?
No, but if you take certain actions without making some kind of offering it may go poorly for you and open up adventure opportunities. Stuff like the characters making an ocean journey without making an offering to Thassa can result in heavy storms or maybe harpies being sent your way to show her displeasure. A cleric may offer healing in a way that offends one of the gods, like breaking a curse they placed on someone as punishment, resulting in that god cursing them to become a medusa over a period of weeks. Things that force players to figure out what is going on, why it's happening, and how to stop it. There's a lot you can do from a fish out of water angle, but I don't think the gods will come after you unless you offend them directly in some way.
matt murray
"Do all the gods show up and demand belief?"
No. The residents of Theros are enough to fuel the gods' power. A random adventuring party isn't worth their notice unless they start becoming notable in the world or unless they petition the gods for something.
"Are the characters overwhelmed by a sense of faith?"
No. The magic of Theros doesn't impose anything by itself on the characters, it just takes strong beliefs and makes them manifest, which can cause a feedback loop and strengthen the belief in that person, place, thing, or concept. A character may become overwhelmed by a sense of awe and wonder and find faith due to what they experience, but that's not something the magic of the plane is responsible for.
same things that happens when a tourist visits a country during an election, nobody really cares. Unless you're doing something to interfere with things.
If someone transports to Theros, frankly only one God will immediately take notice, as Kruphix is the god of the future, but is also made up of all the intelligence and memories of everyone on the plain of Theros, so he will suddenly gain their experiences. That said, Theros is no stranger to people traveling to and from it, so he isn't likely to do much unless he predicts a future where this person destroys Theros. Otherwise, the other gods will only take notice of someone does something that gets them noticed, for better or for worse.
The magic on Nyx doesn't compel anyone, its simple a parallel plain to Theros that looks like the night sky. It takes the beliefs of people and shapes them into being. The more people that believe that, the stronger and more real it becomes.
Recently in the lore, there were even two outside meddlers who each tried to create/become a god by abusing the effects of Nyx... though neither lasted long when the rest of the pantheon took notice.
@@MakutaNazo Klothys, the God of Destiny, would also take notice, as suddenly new threads would begin to appear that are beyond their control. This came around when the Planeswalker Elspeth was knocking things around the pantheon. Elspeth's Planeswalker soul had disentangled her threads with the weave of Theros. To correct this, Klothys *created a Planeswalker*, Calix, to bring Elspeth's soul back into the weave of Theros.
Depending on where on the timeline your "show up on Theros from another world" timeline happens, Klothys might very well send Agents of Fate to bring them into the weave, and thus under the control of Fate.
So in this universe are you more likely to have cultists making cults dedicated to themselves, to give themselves divine power?
So far that only happened once with the Satyr Xenagos. Most mortals on Theros don't even realize that belief is it's own power. And since Xenagos's ascension and subsequent destruction, the gods have been making sure that doesn't happen again. Doesn't mean it won't ever happen, but it'll be rare.
They mention in the book too it was a ritual Xenagos did that many are not aware of. Also that your single character cannot change the world over night through pure belief. It would take the thoughts/dreams of many many people and it would take years possibly centuries to alter/change the divinity of someone or their personality even. (Example believing Heliod isn't an arrogant jerk who isn't about to smite you will not change anything in time) With that said though that doesnt change the fact that cultists/cults do exist that worship some of these Gods differently through ritual sacrifice of other humanoids etc
There have been mortals who ascended into godhood in the history of Theros.
Phenax was the first mortal to escape the Underworld.
Xenagos was a Satyr who pulled off a ritual to bring himself into godhood.
It's by no means a common occurrence, but it is absolutely a plot that a DM could fit into a campaign.
I ❤️ d&d
How about the afterlife in Theros? Do souls go to their gods, or do they go to a place like Hades?
Yup there's an underworld, and there's also chained titans just like in the greek mythos. Dunno if they'll touch on in the D&D book, but you can google the MTG lore. Also i'm pretty sure you can just recreate whatever your table's favorite greek legend is and just play it out. Haktos is Achiles, Anax and Cymede are Leonidas and Gorgo and so on.
If the returned pop up, that is going to be interesting. Because those are your people that crawl up out of the underworld, but they've lost all sense of self to the Styx equivalent river and become an undead creature with only their death mask as a clue as to whom they once were.
I get that Nyx is the starfield.
Is it feasible that Nyx is the "Ao of Theros?"
It's a bit different than that. In Theros, Nyx is more like the Astral Plane or some alternate outerplane that is powered by belief/dreams.
Nyx is Olympus from Greek Mythos, or the Warp from 40k. In Theros the night's sky - Nyx - is the place where our subconscious magically creates conscious entities that live on and grow on their own, feeding on our continuous background believe. Which is basically related to the cult of the dead of ancient greece (and posibly other older religions) - your soul lived in in the afterlife as long as the living kept thinking and talking about you.
"gods are dependent on the belief of mortals." Could be worked into a 5e adaptation of Planescape. (Honestly, whenever a new book comes out, I think about what I can use in Planescape)
who was the god at 0:37 ?
Late i know, but it's actually a creature called Hindred-Handed One. Based on hecatoncheires
Why is Xenagos not in the book?
He dead.
The story of the original theros block was about the evil satyr xenagos disrupting the pantheon and becoming a god. In that same block, he gets ganged up on by Elspeth and several other gods and dies in Nyx, ceasing to exist. Klothys was actually the original green/red god of the pantheon, but has been in the underworld jailing the titans the entire time, which is why we only see her show up in Theros Beyond Death, because the underworld cracking open violates her control over destiny and fate.
Fun fact, you can see her face carved into stone on some of the art in the original theros block, like the original art Temple of Abandon, or the scene where Elspeth and Ajani are climbing a ruined temple to face xenagos in the realm of Nyx.
@@JamesSamson487 Sure, and Heliod is chained in the Underworld. But here he is in the book without that noted. Looks like cherry-picking to me.
Can you play as the returned?
That's not a race but you could make it up!
NICE
swag
This relationship between the deities and the mortals sounds a lot like capitalism to me. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
So Leonins are communists?
Leonids = Cat-Communists.
Basically any unjust hierarchy in history, where the ones at the top of the hierarchy want everyone below them to forget that the power structure is based on the consent of the masses. Capitalism is one of these, of course, but so is Autocracy, Monarchy, Dictatorship, Oligarchy, and even Democracy (if the political establishment begins to rig the democratic process in their favor and suppress voting that would oust them).
The antidote to this is, of course, for the people to understand the power they collectively have, and never let themselves (or their leaders) forget it.
So Titan's were more powerful than Gods?
The gods defeated and caged the titans in the Underworld, so I guess not. But they fear the titans being released again.
Since its modeled after Greco-Roman mythos its kind of a generational push-pull. The titans came first, so at that time we weren't really able to say who was more powerful. Then the gods were begotten. My understanding of Theros is to say that they were the literal manifestations of the prayer of mortals and thus were "designed" to be able to best the titans. In Greco-Roman mythology, its more of a next generation eventually becoming the rulers of the previous thing. The gods were born from the titans, but then they grew up and seized power from them.
The titans are objectively more powerful than the deities of theros, and are not dependant on mortal worship, they were bound by the elder members of the theros pantheon, particularly Klothis the god of fate and destiny and kruphux the god of horizons (think liminal spaces and boundaries, like how the horizon is the thing the separates the sky and sea or land).
It is possible they were only able to be sealed because of the nature and domains of there two gods
@@nathanmcneill1817 Well Kruphix also maintains the domain of the future, and peoples memories... so destiny and time are both the strongest beliefs in Theros, and neither god apparently needs worship to exist, unlike the others.
Xenagos did nothing wrong.
He stabbed his brother to death man.
I am not buying this setting. If this interests you, by all means enjoy, but I'm a lot more interested in using the figures from Classical mythology.
What was the point of this comment?
nobody asked you? but okay