The thing is, as far as consumer responsibility goes, music is a casual interest for most listeners. They care deeply about other things - literature, gaming, fashion, comedy, film, etc. I'm not passionate enough about all my interests to deeply diversify the media I consume and that's how most music consumers feel about music, especially in the Itunes era. We're back to the 45/7 inch era where cutting disposable sides for quick consumption is the aim of the industry.
its not respected because people don't understand the craft but they think they do. every one thinks it is simple and all you have to do is rhyme one word at the end of a line but the real craft comes from creating rhythm by lining up similar sounding syllables. its like using the English language as an instrument....PPL THINK ITS SIMPLE GRADE SCHOOL RHYMES BUT ITS MORE LIKE A SHAKESPEAREAN FREE FORM SONET
The answer, in my opinion, is showing younger generations classic Hip Hop. Be stubborn about it. Show them shit until you find something that they like. We have such a rich history, I know it's possible. Yes, kids are going to tend to be more into what's "in," but it's just a stubbornness. It can be overcome if faced with level-headed consistency. In order to re-gain our respect, we must re-educate the youngsters and show them that there is much more to Hip Hop than they see day-to-day.
@illtalk900 Yes, punk DID get accepted and eventually, respected as a MUSICAL ART FORM. The reason is as time went along the fans became adults. Music genres got pushed a lot further so punk was no longer just a bunch of noise because you had stuff like metal and rap to take the place. Plus, punk went mainstream. Parents saw stuff like Green Day on TV and became fine with their kids listening to it because it was no longer threatening. The face of the genre changed for the positive (unlike rap).
The velocity of money that has funneled into rap music has moved even mainstream artist away from the core of hip hop's art form. Hip Hop when it is all said and done is street music. For many hearing about what goes on within the streets whether real or fantasy frightens and repels some but also embrace by many who are familiar with street life the world over. The freedom of speech within hip hop is legendary compared to other genres of music and older generations can't see past the rawness.
Respect- A feeling of deep admiration for someone or something elicited by their abilities, qualities, or achievements. It's respected by millions period. It sounds like the charismatic qualities of Rick ross is what caused this admiration (respect) the lyrics aren't the only part of hip hop
The reason why Hip Hop isn't respected as an art form is because it is popular. It took time for Jazz to be accepted as an art form and even when 1 form of Jazz was accepted (Swing) fans still looked down on another Jazz form (Be Bop). Rock was accepted as an art form after the Monterey Festival in 67 but, truth was people still didn't accept it as an art form. Most of the music we accept as an art form has been old as hell (no disrespect). Jazz has been around for almost 100 years.
what happened was..the people who worked at labels etc, were people who LOVED music, the art form, etc. NOW, the people who work at labels etc are BUSINESS men, they care about sales, NOT the art form. they dont put out what doesnt sell. At the same time, the masses can easily say NO, and shift to different music rather than the BS on the radio.
One thing I was waiting for you guys to say that never was that is key to this whole thing - generally hip hop is easier to create than any of the other genres that usually utilize instruments (which generally require a band, co-op between it's members, in some cases skill with said instruments, etc.). These days hip hop can literally be created by one person lone. And before the argument of "hip hop artists using live bands" comes up, Soulja Boy arguably popularized the D-I-Y angle.
hip hop is the way it is because it got so damn popular that it changed to fit the standards of everybody, not just the african- americans but to the world. which i think is why r&b is being influenced so much in it
Mos Def said the people are hip hop and hip hop is the people. If the people are gonna be smoked out hip hop is gonna be smoked out. If hip hop is positive the people are gonna be positive. He said this on "Fear Not Of Man" on his debut album "Black On Both Sides". I'd say he was right. It's the people fam...
If corporatism can help explain the conditioning of the general public today, it can help explain their taste in hip hop. In a paradigm where people are too mentally exhausted from the drudgery of their highly specialized and enfeebling work days; the same-y materialism in the faces and messages pop music offers are placating justifications for avoiding any stimuli that demands active contemplation to pluck their sweet rewards. Hegemonic control today goes to the ruling class and so society goes
Ok lets put it like this, rock is someone that can sing over music, rap is poetry over music, its a difference. I dont know what it has to do with it but it does.
I think if you look at the target market for these record companies, it makes sense. They aren't marketing to urban areas, they're marketing to the suburbs. The people in the suburbs aren't going to latch on to more socially conscious rap coming from the city. Its a lot easier to get them to buy music with simple lyrics about weed or the club. But it's also this way for every type of music. Almost all mainstream music in any genre is mindless. You have to search for the deeper stuff.
I think @mykectown should have his own personal show. Just so I could hear more of his opinion on things and so I can hear about the music he likes. It may be very interesting.
@Mikelovision I didn't know we were comparing them to Dylan. That's a completely different argument so I'm not gonna go there. My point is that they were definitely respected as more than a fly by night band by that album. Critics saw them as real musicians based on the sound Harrison started on that album (not song writing). Listen to the playing, the leads and overall sound on it. They changed up a bit and tended to stray a little away from the kidsy sound of the first few albums.
I agree with Myke in that I don't think it's all down to race. Subject matter and public image is probably part of it, but more than that, I think rapping as a skill is too opaque for the general public to really understand. People respect singers in spite of the fact that singers do not (strictly speaking) play instruments, and I think it's because most people have enough personal experience with singing to understand that it takes a lot of skill and practice to do it well. Meanwhile, the most common insult used against rappers is still that "they're just talking". People who hate death metal and refuse to even acknowledge it as music will usually still concede that it takes a measure of technique to play it. With rap, there isn't the basic understanding that rapping takes any kind of skill beyond being able to form words.
@Mikelovision I can't say I agree with you on The Beatles not being respected until Revolver. Listen to Hard Day's Night. That was the first album where they had that particular sound with the melodies. They had developed a sound that not many others had tried thanks to George Harrison. And that was their third album. In my opinion, people then saw them as really changing music. In my opinion, their music was kinda boring before then.
It's about how negatively Hip Hop is perceived by the media, due to its tendency towards more provocative, uncomfortable subject matter. Same shit with Punk Rock, Heavy Metal, Rock and Roll and The Blues. Genres like this that gain acceptance in the mainstream are those that find ways to showcase positive artists. Hip Hop was on it's way up towards acceptance in the late 90s. I felt it. Then Cash Money Millionaires happened. Now the mainstream is all women and drugs.
They are right about ppl being lazy about finding non ignorant rap. In the 9th grade I hated what I was hearing on the radio, it had no substance, no message, no good representation of what I wanted to see and look up to. So I started looking for diff artist, I came across 9th Wonder, Skyzoo, and loved when I discovered Jean Grae. Six years later I'm glad I dug deep into underground because mainstream is totally ignorant, and so are MOST the ppl who listen to it 24/7.
You can tell what ppl listen to mainstream and what kind of ppl who listen to underground/indie. It's a big difference in those groups of ppl. Mainstream is like a hat that anybody can just pick up and wear, that's how it sells so anybody can just put on. Underground is a strong culture and not anybody and everybody can pull it off, not unless they know the do's and don't's of it or you'll be put out. At one time Drake was underground and rapping for real, now he's a mainstream singer.
An interesting thought...no matter where you are in the country, you can find a classic rock station on normal FM radio. However, unless you have something like Sirius radio, the only hip hop you will find is the mainstream crap we all hate...just a thought
So don't pretend you gave it all if you ain't gave it all Just faded in the hazy purple twilight No more time I tried to warn you all it's now approaching midnight
If I could spend a day with any Rapper I would totally spend it hangin' out with Saul Williams. I love intelligent conversation and I know there would be a lot of really cool stuff to talk about with him. I sort of feel like Punk Rock isn't super respected now-a-days though. I mean the biggest people in Punk are like you said. Sum 41 and Green Day. People like that are not perpetuating true Punk style. So it had to become Poppy. The Hardcore Punk scene is still rebllious and unrespected.
I feel like the reason Hip Hop isn't respected by and large because raps are spoken and not sung. Thus, some don't recognize that being a good rapper is, itself, a talent, considering your flow and vocal inflection and whatnot. Secondary reason would be the gritty urban lifestyle that was portrayed (in the 90's, primarily), along with the flashiness of the mainstream today.
I remember in 05 when Common and Kanye were both getting shine and were pretty social, and at the same time, 50 Cent and the Game were all club/mindless gangster rap. It was actually kind of balanced for the mainstream scene. Look at Billboard today- electronic music is getting its mainstream shine and the rap scene consists mostly of new hyped lables YMCMB, MMG, Roc Nation. Even dudes like J Cole who have deep records release singles like Work Out. It's not balanced at all rotation wise
@PM2126 I agree, but out of curiosity what intricacies are you suggesting. Also have to add that society is based on a majority rules philosophy... that's just the way it is right now... Everything is based on that one way or another. everything.
@corneliusrawness from an artist cadence ,flow, rhyme schemes, messages, Making beats (at least ones I like) takes musical talent. Even finding the right sample and using it accordingly to improve a beat or help deliver a message in a song isn't easy.There are others that are escaping me now.
I think the question has to be a little more specific in order for it to be valid. It's a great question! But my question is to who? Of course Hip-hop is respected as an art form (see Common at the white house or Jay-z at Carnegie Hall). To the youth hip hop is respected. Yes to the mainstream, because hip hop has sold millions of albums. Old people love the "clean" and old school hip hop artist. Hip Hop is internationally loved and respected. Who's left?
@mykectown No doubt. I definitely agree that hip-hop would still have a prevailing bias against it regardless of whether it was the modern day nonsense or not. But I think that a lot of it would be due to uninformed stereotypes and lingering bias. I feel though that if talented emcees were still at the forefront, gangstar or conscious, its scope of respect and recognition as legitimate art would eventually be established. But based on whats popular now that will never happen. Nor should it.
@CarlHH777 hit nail on the head with that. I think the only music that is truly respected as art is classical music. Everything else is just noise to one group or another. Those who appreciate their favorite genre and take the time out to learn about it are the the only ones who should have a say on what's art or not.
@MrAloo14 Exactly. Punk rock and metal isn't respected by the general public as an art form either. So because something is part of life I should respect it? Just because it excists doesn't mean it's ok to behave like that, certainly doesn't mean people should respect it.
and while it may be ignorant in concept, it's really not that bad of a thing to only like music that's on the radio. when you get in these in depth conversations about music, you forget that there are some people who just don't care as much as we do. it's not a problem. i don't like to judge other people based on what they listen to, just as long as you're not bothering me
@mykectown I agree with you. I couldn't care less what most critics say and the Grammy's generally represent garbage in every genre. I am just saying that whilst Hip Hop may not be respected in the same way Country or Rock are, those genres have the same amount of garbage that really isn't respected by music fans. I think major music critics do respect Hip Hop, and I actually don't think there are many intelligent music fans who don't at least respect Hip Hop as an art form.
@BattleRoyale9 At the same time, we have to take a deeper look than just race. While a factor, it's too easy to come to a resolution. I feel you though.
@MrAloo14 I'm from Amsterdam. But chasing materialism generally isn't respected in the art movement to begin with, in comparison to more social conscious motives. And for good reason I think.
@MrAloo14 It's the sound of your streets maybe, not where I grew up. I don't respect people using that word in general, not just in music. And you summarised it quite nice, to me what you described is some people trying to make money, not art. Not to mention that for many rappers it's more an act than reality.
@Caeolian87 Interestingly enough, I saw today that Mos Def was Waka Flocka's hype man for a show. That's really interesting because they are vastly different artist but Mos Def I presume just really loves the art form.
@illtalk900 Now, when I say art form, no, I’m not talking solely about them comparing it to Bob Dylan. But them saying “OK, this is a valid art form.” Meaning they consider is MUSIC and not NOISE. I think you know what I meant. No, no one goes around using the exact words “Katy Perry is art.” But few go around using the words “The Beatles are art” either. And few will say "Katy Perry is just noise, not music."
@Mikelovision I said it in the video...selling albums doesn't equate respect. A record exec will still sign you because you'll make him money,but that doesn't mean he respects you. A racist suburban kid will still buy your album because he's entertained by it, but he clearly doesn't respect you. They will not look at your average rapper as a valid musician or poet. So ,yes, it's a good question and I really don't feel like it's respected at all by the mainstream.
It's not respected because the progress that was made was not respected. For the longest it was not even considered a genre until corporations realized the monitory value and how it could be exploited and controlled. Something stolen and or sold out that we created once again. Now people say the classic hip hop artists are too old and this is a "young mans game" when older artists from all other genres can tour and make dynasties forever. Also this is the only genre where older classic artists are disrespected. Respect has been lost in society which always reflected in hip hop so now it's all disrespect based like crabs in a bucket trying to make it when we already have the power.
@illtalk900 And to your Twisted Sister argument, they were never sued. You’re getting your stories mixed up. They were attacked by the PMRC and Dee Snyder (alone) testified against the Parental Advisory Stickers. They got knocked, in most's eyes, for good reason. Their lyrics and imagery weren't kid friendly. It's that simple.
@Kingemedia yeah i hear that. but i think that as time passes & people who grew up listening to hip hop become the future generation of professors, teachers, etc. naturally a more informed and appreciative perspective would settle in society. I mean it has already in a very microscopic way but not enough to change the prevailing stereotypes etc. BUt my point is with the way things are now, even that kind of matured recognition is undermined into irrelevance.The shit now just isnt respectable
@Goofle11 I'm not saying I want anyone specific to respect it. I'm just pointing out that it's not. It's not gonna change my world if all of the sudden major music critics say "I do now consider rappers poets." The hip hop category at the Grammy's isn't really a good argument because, again, we're not talking about money or popularity. That shit is based on entertainment. Not whether or not you take the artist seriously.
It's typically seen as being too "easy" and not involving much talent. When I show friends who "don't like rap" people like Immortal Technique, Aesop Rock, Eyedea, etc. They are immediately impressed by the lyricism. For the most part hip hop is seen to have about the same amount of depth as a Britney Spears song due to the proliferation of people like Gucci Mane, Soulja Boy etc. Right when rap was going to transcend into complex lyricism, Biggie/Tupac died and Booty rap became popular.
@YourDailyMusicNotes So the only band out of the 3 you named that could be classified as traditional punk would be Suicide Commandos. Bad Brains clearly gets put into the hardcore punk category and if you know anything at all about The Misfits you know they started horror punk (and even get called deathrock by some). So, by your own logic, 2/3 of the bands you named can't be called punk because they fall under a sub-genre. Same as Green Day with pop punk. Maybe you get how silly this is now?
@mykectown @kbinge I think the biggest problem with these user comments is the fact that theres no focus on WHO does or doesnt respect it. My friends and I are hip hop heads certainly respect it as an art form, however few would listen to "mainstream". Other Friends; who like many genres who would respect it as an artform, yet think that lil wayne and the roots both have good songs; who dont listen to it but respect it. Then there are ppl, like my parents, who simply do not. Yet respect is there
i think promotion and people being force fed is a valid point, now i know some of you may slam me but thriller, the biggest selling album of all time and one of the most highly critically acclaimed albums is just huge hit singles crazy marketing and filler songs to make up numbers :/ maybe we are told what is good and we believe it
Some people go out of their way not to play the race-card because it's used to much as a cop-out. . But at the sametime, you gotta call a spade a spade. I use a process of elimination as to why certain things are the way they are for certain artist, genres, people, without using the race-card. But sometimes, it is what it is. There's many other genres of music that have a tinge of misogyny, offensive material, cursing, etc. Why is hip-hop singled out? Why is that?
@DrewBobson They know that, but a lot of people,(Republicans) were mad because of some one Common supported.That was more politics than Hip-Hop though.And Even still people were upset.
dont take there time to listen to the lyrics thaey just listen to the beat anyway keep up the hardwork Elzhi is the best out at the minite that 'the hood is like the glass house the devil throw stones through' line was tight i had to rewind that shit haha Peace out!
@carsonlevine13 I think that a big problem is that older HHHs say shit is garbage without realizing that it's a matter of taste. I don't claim to know any more than people younger than me. I claim to be an individual who loves Hip Hop, knows Hip Hop history and wants to share that love and knowledge with others.
@MrKeepit2000 you can listen to whatever you want. I do.Whether it's deemed too aggressive, too intellectual, soft, or just unpopular. Forget what others say.
The corporate does run it cause if the kids hear it on the radio they think its hot. The youth is where the money comes from, not us the older generation.
@corneliusrawness Not all forms of hip hop are easy to create. Simplistic beats, yes. More intricate beats layered with samples from multiple sources, no.
I think the problem lies in people believing that Lil Wayne and Soulja Boi is "Hip-Hop" in the first place. It's pop music ultimately, Hip-Hop is the just medium that they use to "express" their sound...if that makes sense.
I think it's a combination of rap containing a lot more profanity than other genres (apart from maybe metal), and the fact that most rappers have worse live performances than their studio albums due to the fact that they can't play instruments. The Roots are respected because they're an actual band
I think we can say that every genre is not respected depending on what we consider "respected". Generally speaking, the mainstream is garbage in every genre. Some people will say Metal is garbage but the only thing "Metal" they heard is like Slipknot. Same thing applies to Hip-Hop. It's easy to judge the genre and say it's garbage based on Lil Wayne, for example.
i don't think the situation with modern day hip hop is as bad as people make it out to be. hip hop is just assimilating into a modern genre like pop and rock, and with that you'll get your mainstream music, you'll get your manufactured music, and then you'll get more "legitimate" artists underground. i think part of the problem is the cultural attachment hip hop has to the hood and how we just saw how it started as a form of fun and expression to a corporate moneymaker. but it's no biggie
@corneliusrawness Really? By major radio? Is a Mastodon or Opeth or Meshuggah record going to get album of the year by Rolling Stone, Pitchfork, or Paste? No. Will hip hop? Yes, it's called My Dark Beautiful Twisted Fantasy.
I agree with most of the stuff that's being said. But I always think that black culture does not need to look to white people for approval. Arguments like "we're not being treated equally" when it comes to music, awards, protection in the community and role models always bothers me because at the end of the day. It's NOT white peoples responsibility to take care of black culture. It's our fault for not supervising hip hop White people aren't evil, they're not illuminati. It's called Protecting your interests first, and then taking care of others AFTER if there's resources left. How many movies are there falsely portraying Indian people and Chinese people? Thousands. But those communities have never been that affected by how media portrays them BECAUSE they know it's not the media,s responsibility to raise their children. We don't need radio to tell us what's good Just because there's cheese burgers and fries being sold doesn't mean you have to buy it and eat it every day.
@beezy430 yo yall should talk about what if Joe budden and Jay Z still had beef and still were dissing each other on songs. also decide who would of won
@rjdizinez Hip hop is enjoyed by a great deal of people. Enjoyment doesn't always equate to respect. I hate that an integral part was left out of this video and that's when Feefo admitted that Rick Ross is not a poet based on the fact that he doesn't like his lyrics even though he enjoys his music. A LOT of mainstream critics think that way. That's what we were covering here. Just because you have millions buying tickets to your show doesn't mean your music or artform is respected. Just enjoyed.
@mioluce I didn't say the sole fact of them being good musicians make them a good band. You said they were ridiculed for their music and lyrics. Ridiculed by who? People who don't enjoy the genre at all? Or people who know nothing about musicianship? That's really like someone who doesn't like experimental rap at all saying he doesn't like El-P. Are you really gonna debate his opinion?
@DRM406 Whoa...could Mastodon or Opeth get album of the year in Pitchfork or Paste? Definitely. That was a really bad example. Just because it hasn't happened doesn't mean it can't. Metal, while more accepted, is still not as widely accepted as hip hop only based on a popularity/money making standpoint.
@MrKeepit2000 Dude, what in the world are you talking about? Underground rappers don't get love because you never saw them at spots and they weren't popular in school? How do I even respond to something like that? And guys? One guy made that comment. It wasn't a collective thought.
Thing is... alot of people nowdays, think that the music they listen to IS rebellious... even with how Safe it all actually is. "Don't give a fuck" became the same thing as Rebellious. But that's another convo. People like Pac, PE, were rebellious because they DID give a fuck... and they spoke about WHY. The way Lupe, or Mos Def have been snatched off stages for speaking out... that never could have happened back day, lol... we Mobbed back then lol..
That point about if an artist is not on the radio the masses think he's shit, IS SO TRUE. I think the young generation is lazy and has clouded minds. That's why when Drake raps about getting head in his condo up in Biscayne the kids go wild because they've been brainwashed by this fantasy lifestyle they wish to live, so they live it vicariously through these "artists". Its much harder for them to listen to guys like Rakim, Nas, Inspectah Deck, Chino XL, Reks, etc.
But when things like "Watch The Throne" happen, and they dont put out an album where they DONT have to fit the status quo, how could we expect the others to follow and be bold enough to do it too..HipHop Lives underground.
The thing is, as far as consumer responsibility goes, music is a casual interest for most listeners. They care deeply about other things - literature, gaming, fashion, comedy, film, etc. I'm not passionate enough about all my interests to deeply diversify the media I consume and that's how most music consumers feel about music, especially in the Itunes era. We're back to the 45/7 inch era where cutting disposable sides for quick consumption is the aim of the industry.
Glad to see the questions segment with Marjorie is back. I would have said 2pac too, but Chuck D was a good answer.
its not respected because people don't understand the craft but they think they do. every one thinks it is simple and all you have to do is rhyme one word at the end of a line but the real craft comes from creating rhythm by lining up similar sounding syllables. its like using the English language as an instrument....PPL THINK ITS SIMPLE GRADE SCHOOL RHYMES BUT ITS MORE LIKE A SHAKESPEAREAN FREE FORM SONET
sonnet*
Exactly
The answer, in my opinion, is showing younger generations classic Hip Hop. Be stubborn about it. Show them shit until you find something that they like. We have such a rich history, I know it's possible. Yes, kids are going to tend to be more into what's "in," but it's just a stubbornness. It can be overcome if faced with level-headed consistency. In order to re-gain our respect, we must re-educate the youngsters and show them that there is much more to Hip Hop than they see day-to-day.
Dope discussion as always. Nice points made across the board.
@illtalk900 Yes, punk DID get accepted and eventually, respected as a MUSICAL ART FORM. The reason is as time went along the fans became adults. Music genres got pushed a lot further so punk was no longer just a bunch of noise because you had stuff like metal and rap to take the place. Plus, punk went mainstream. Parents saw stuff like Green Day on TV and became fine with their kids listening to it because it was no longer threatening. The face of the genre changed for the positive (unlike rap).
The velocity of money that has funneled into rap music has moved even mainstream artist away from the core of hip hop's art form. Hip Hop when it is all said and done is street music. For many hearing about what goes on within the streets whether real or fantasy frightens and repels some but also embrace by many who are familiar with street life the world over. The freedom of speech within hip hop is legendary compared to other genres of music and older generations can't see past the rawness.
Respect- A feeling of deep admiration for someone or something elicited by their abilities, qualities, or achievements. It's respected by millions period. It sounds like the charismatic qualities of Rick ross is what caused this admiration (respect) the lyrics aren't the only part of hip hop
The reason why Hip Hop isn't respected as an art form is because it is popular. It took time for Jazz to be accepted as an art form and even when 1 form of Jazz was accepted (Swing) fans still looked down on another Jazz form (Be Bop). Rock was accepted as an art form after the Monterey Festival in 67 but, truth was people still didn't accept it as an art form. Most of the music we accept as an art form has been old as hell (no disrespect). Jazz has been around for almost 100 years.
what happened was..the people who worked at labels etc, were people who LOVED music, the art form, etc. NOW, the people who work at labels etc are BUSINESS men, they care about sales, NOT the art form. they dont put out what doesnt sell. At the same time, the masses can easily say NO, and shift to different music rather than the BS on the radio.
One thing I was waiting for you guys to say that never was that is key to this whole thing - generally hip hop is easier to create than any of the other genres that usually utilize instruments (which generally require a band, co-op between it's members, in some cases skill with said instruments, etc.). These days hip hop can literally be created by one person lone. And before the argument of "hip hop artists using live bands" comes up, Soulja Boy arguably popularized the D-I-Y angle.
That K-Mart comparison was great at the end
hip hop is the way it is because it got so damn popular that it changed to fit the standards of everybody, not just the african- americans but to the world. which i think is why r&b is being influenced so much in it
Mos Def said the people are hip hop and hip hop is the people. If the people are gonna be smoked out hip hop is gonna be smoked out. If hip hop is positive the people are gonna be positive. He said this on "Fear Not Of Man" on his debut album "Black On Both Sides". I'd say he was right. It's the people fam...
Great Convo
If corporatism can help explain the conditioning of the general public today, it can help explain their taste in hip hop. In a paradigm where people are too mentally exhausted from the drudgery of their highly specialized and enfeebling work days; the same-y materialism in the faces and messages pop music offers are placating justifications for avoiding any stimuli that demands active contemplation to pluck their sweet rewards. Hegemonic control today goes to the ruling class and so society goes
Ok lets put it like this, rock is someone that can sing over music, rap is poetry over music, its a difference. I dont know what it has to do with it but it does.
I think if you look at the target market for these record companies, it makes sense. They aren't marketing to urban areas, they're marketing to the suburbs. The people in the suburbs aren't going to latch on to more socially conscious rap coming from the city. Its a lot easier to get them to buy music with simple lyrics about weed or the club. But it's also this way for every type of music. Almost all mainstream music in any genre is mindless. You have to search for the deeper stuff.
I think @mykectown should have his own personal show. Just so I could hear more of his opinion on things and so I can hear about the music he likes. It may be very interesting.
@Mikelovision I didn't know we were comparing them to Dylan. That's a completely different argument so I'm not gonna go there. My point is that they were definitely respected as more than a fly by night band by that album. Critics saw them as real musicians based on the sound Harrison started on that album (not song writing). Listen to the playing, the leads and overall sound on it. They changed up a bit and tended to stray a little away from the kidsy sound of the first few albums.
I agree with Myke in that I don't think it's all down to race. Subject matter and public image is probably part of it, but more than that, I think rapping as a skill is too opaque for the general public to really understand. People respect singers in spite of the fact that singers do not (strictly speaking) play instruments, and I think it's because most people have enough personal experience with singing to understand that it takes a lot of skill and practice to do it well. Meanwhile, the most common insult used against rappers is still that "they're just talking". People who hate death metal and refuse to even acknowledge it as music will usually still concede that it takes a measure of technique to play it. With rap, there isn't the basic understanding that rapping takes any kind of skill beyond being able to form words.
one weird thing i found is that some of the public is actually too slow to hear it, like all they will hear is the rhymes
@Mikelovision I can't say I agree with you on The Beatles not being respected until Revolver. Listen to Hard Day's Night. That was the first album where they had that particular sound with the melodies. They had developed a sound that not many others had tried thanks to George Harrison. And that was their third album. In my opinion, people then saw them as really changing music. In my opinion, their music was kinda boring before then.
It's about how negatively Hip Hop is perceived by the media, due to its tendency towards more provocative, uncomfortable subject matter. Same shit with Punk Rock, Heavy Metal, Rock and Roll and The Blues. Genres like this that gain acceptance in the mainstream are those that find ways to showcase positive artists. Hip Hop was on it's way up towards acceptance in the late 90s. I felt it. Then Cash Money Millionaires happened. Now the mainstream is all women and drugs.
true, i dont listen to mainstream hip hop but when someone tells me to look something up it will take me 2-3 months to look into it
They are right about ppl being lazy about finding non ignorant rap. In the 9th grade I hated what I was hearing on the radio, it had no substance, no message, no good representation of what I wanted to see and look up to. So I started looking for diff artist, I came across 9th Wonder, Skyzoo, and loved when I discovered Jean Grae. Six years later I'm glad I dug deep into underground because mainstream is totally ignorant, and so are MOST the ppl who listen to it 24/7.
You can tell what ppl listen to mainstream and what kind of ppl who listen to underground/indie. It's a big difference in those groups of ppl. Mainstream is like a hat that anybody can just pick up and wear, that's how it sells so anybody can just put on. Underground is a strong culture and not anybody and everybody can pull it off, not unless they know the do's and don't's of it or you'll be put out. At one time Drake was underground and rapping for real, now he's a mainstream singer.
@mioluce Motley Crue is definitely respected as forefathers of modern rock/metal.
An interesting thought...no matter where you are in the country, you can find a classic rock station on normal FM radio. However, unless you have something like Sirius radio, the only hip hop you will find is the mainstream crap we all hate...just a thought
I think it dependence on where you are in the world.. here in Sweden it's respected as an art form.
So don't pretend you gave it all if you ain't gave it all
Just faded in the hazy purple twilight
No more time I tried to warn you all it's now approaching midnight
If I could spend a day with any Rapper I would totally spend it hangin' out with Saul Williams. I love intelligent conversation and I know there would be a lot of really cool stuff to talk about with him.
I sort of feel like Punk Rock isn't super respected now-a-days though. I mean the biggest people in Punk are like you said. Sum 41 and Green Day. People like that are not perpetuating true Punk style. So it had to become Poppy. The Hardcore Punk scene is still rebllious and unrespected.
They didn't really touch on sampling, which I think is half the argument against it being an art form
Plenty people sample though not just hip-hop. RnB artists sample as well.
So much respect to CTown on choosing P.O.S.
I can totally relate to that, man.
I feel like the reason Hip Hop isn't respected by and large because raps are spoken and not sung. Thus, some don't recognize that being a good rapper is, itself, a talent, considering your flow and vocal inflection and whatnot. Secondary reason would be the gritty urban lifestyle that was portrayed (in the 90's, primarily), along with the flashiness of the mainstream today.
I remember in 05 when Common and Kanye were both getting shine and were pretty social, and at the same time, 50 Cent and the Game were all club/mindless gangster rap. It was actually kind of balanced for the mainstream scene. Look at Billboard today- electronic music is getting its mainstream shine and the rap scene consists mostly of new hyped lables YMCMB, MMG, Roc Nation. Even dudes like J Cole who have deep records release singles like Work Out. It's not balanced at all rotation wise
@PM2126 I agree, but out of curiosity what intricacies are you suggesting.
Also have to add that society is based on a majority rules philosophy... that's just the way it is right now... Everything is based on that one way or another. everything.
@corneliusrawness from an artist
cadence ,flow, rhyme schemes, messages,
Making beats (at least ones I like) takes musical talent. Even finding the right sample and using it accordingly to improve a beat or help deliver a message in a song isn't easy.There are others that are escaping me now.
I think the question has to be a little more specific in order for it to be valid. It's a great question! But my question is to who? Of course Hip-hop is respected as an art form (see Common at the white house or Jay-z at Carnegie Hall). To the youth hip hop is respected. Yes to the mainstream, because hip hop has sold millions of albums. Old people love the "clean" and old school hip hop artist. Hip Hop is internationally loved and respected. Who's left?
@mykectown No doubt. I definitely agree that hip-hop would still have a prevailing bias against it regardless of whether it was the modern day nonsense or not. But I think that a lot of it would be due to uninformed stereotypes and lingering bias. I feel though that if talented emcees were still at the forefront, gangstar or conscious, its scope of respect and recognition as legitimate art would eventually be established. But based on whats popular now that will never happen. Nor should it.
@CarlHH777 hit nail on the head with that. I think the only music that is truly respected as art is classical music. Everything else is just noise to one group or another. Those who appreciate their favorite genre and take the time out to learn about it are the the only ones who should have a say on what's art or not.
@AnthDouglass This is what started DEHH and the reviews are add-ons.
@MrAloo14 Exactly. Punk rock and metal isn't respected by the general public as an art form either. So because something is part of life I should respect it? Just because it excists doesn't mean it's ok to behave like that, certainly doesn't mean people should respect it.
and while it may be ignorant in concept, it's really not that bad of a thing to only like music that's on the radio. when you get in these in depth conversations about music, you forget that there are some people who just don't care as much as we do. it's not a problem. i don't like to judge other people based on what they listen to, just as long as you're not bothering me
@mykectown I agree with you. I couldn't care less what most critics say and the Grammy's generally represent garbage in every genre. I am just saying that whilst Hip Hop may not be respected in the same way Country or Rock are, those genres have the same amount of garbage that really isn't respected by music fans.
I think major music critics do respect Hip Hop, and I actually don't think there are many intelligent music fans who don't at least respect Hip Hop as an art form.
@BattleRoyale9 At the same time, we have to take a deeper look than just race. While a factor, it's too easy to come to a resolution. I feel you though.
nice P.O.S.
i seen him live it was 1 of the best shows ive seen ever.
THANK YOU JESUS for this! I have been waiting since part 1 for this.
@MrAloo14 I'm from Amsterdam. But chasing materialism generally isn't respected in the art movement to begin with, in comparison to more social conscious motives. And for good reason I think.
@hoppus222 yea they are, Krit is coming this week I think
@MrAloo14 It's the sound of your streets maybe, not where I grew up. I don't respect people using that word in general, not just in music. And you summarised it quite nice, to me what you described is some people trying to make money, not art. Not to mention that for many rappers it's more an act than reality.
@Caeolian87 Interestingly enough, I saw today that Mos Def was Waka Flocka's hype man for a show. That's really interesting because they are vastly different artist but Mos Def I presume just really loves the art form.
Are we going to see a review for 4Eva N A Day?
@BrooklynJEW7 truer words have never been spoken
@illtalk900 Now, when I say art form, no, I’m not talking solely about them comparing it to Bob Dylan. But them saying “OK, this is a valid art form.” Meaning they consider is MUSIC and not NOISE. I think you know what I meant. No, no one goes around using the exact words “Katy Perry is art.” But few go around using the words “The Beatles are art” either. And few will say "Katy Perry is just noise, not music."
@Dougs90 We're talking about the masses. Not people who are already hip hop heads.
@Mikelovision Nice point.
@Mikelovision I said it in the video...selling albums doesn't equate respect. A record exec will still sign you because you'll make him money,but that doesn't mean he respects you. A racist suburban kid will still buy your album because he's entertained by it, but he clearly doesn't respect you. They will not look at your average rapper as a valid musician or poet. So ,yes, it's a good question and I really don't feel like it's respected at all by the mainstream.
It's not respected because the progress that was made was not respected. For the longest it was not even considered a genre until corporations realized the monitory value and how it could be exploited and controlled. Something stolen and or sold out that we created once again. Now people say the classic hip hop artists are too old and this is a "young mans game" when older artists from all other genres can tour and make dynasties forever. Also this is the only genre where older classic artists are disrespected. Respect has been lost in society which always reflected in hip hop so now it's all disrespect based like crabs in a bucket trying to make it when we already have the power.
@SaveAD Depends on who you talk to. I know a lot of people who would disagree with that vehemently.
@illtalk900 And to your Twisted Sister argument, they were never sued. You’re getting your stories mixed up. They were attacked by the PMRC and Dee Snyder (alone) testified against the Parental Advisory Stickers. They got knocked, in most's eyes, for good reason. Their lyrics and imagery weren't kid friendly. It's that simple.
@RhymesWithHatTrick I mentioned sampling.
@Kingemedia yeah i hear that. but i think that as time passes & people who grew up listening to hip hop become the future generation of professors, teachers, etc. naturally a more informed and appreciative perspective would settle in society. I mean it has already in a very microscopic way but not enough to change the prevailing stereotypes etc.
BUt my point is with the way things are now, even that kind of matured recognition is undermined into irrelevance.The shit now just isnt respectable
@Goofle11 I'm not saying I want anyone specific to respect it. I'm just pointing out that it's not. It's not gonna change my world if all of the sudden major music critics say "I do now consider rappers poets." The hip hop category at the Grammy's isn't really a good argument because, again, we're not talking about money or popularity. That shit is based on entertainment. Not whether or not you take the artist seriously.
It's typically seen as being too "easy" and not involving much talent. When I show friends who "don't like rap" people like Immortal Technique, Aesop Rock, Eyedea, etc. They are immediately impressed by the lyricism. For the most part hip hop is seen to have about the same amount of depth as a Britney Spears song due to the proliferation of people like Gucci Mane, Soulja Boy etc. Right when rap was going to transcend into complex lyricism, Biggie/Tupac died and Booty rap became popular.
@YourDailyMusicNotes So the only band out of the 3 you named that could be classified as traditional punk would be Suicide Commandos. Bad Brains clearly gets put into the hardcore punk category and if you know anything at all about The Misfits you know they started horror punk (and even get called deathrock by some). So, by your own logic, 2/3 of the bands you named can't be called punk because they fall under a sub-genre. Same as Green Day with pop punk. Maybe you get how silly this is now?
@mykectown @kbinge I think the biggest problem with these user comments is the fact that theres no focus on WHO does or doesnt respect it. My friends and I are hip hop heads certainly respect it as an art form, however few would listen to "mainstream". Other Friends; who like many genres who would respect it as an artform, yet think that lil wayne and the roots both have good songs; who dont listen to it but respect it. Then there are ppl, like my parents, who simply do not. Yet respect is there
i think promotion and people being force fed is a valid point, now i know some of you may slam me but thriller, the biggest selling album of all time and one of the most highly critically acclaimed albums is just huge hit singles crazy marketing and filler songs to make up numbers :/ maybe we are told what is good and we believe it
@JamesRRM What intro? With the rappers? Come on man, we need the intro. It's like TV.
Some people go out of their way not to play the race-card because it's used to much as a cop-out. . But at the sametime, you gotta call a spade a spade. I use a process of elimination as to why certain things are the way they are for certain artist, genres, people, without using the race-card. But sometimes, it is what it is. There's many other genres of music that have a tinge of misogyny, offensive material, cursing, etc. Why is hip-hop singled out? Why is that?
@YourDailyMusicNotes I know I said I was giving up on this, but I'm curious. Name me 3 bands who you would call just punk. Nothing else. JUST PUNK.
@MrEternity1 Sorry about the wait. We had a break in programming. Blame @feefo247 and @beezy430 and @iammodestmedia
@DrewBobson They know that, but a lot of people,(Republicans) were mad because of some one Common supported.That was more politics than Hip-Hop though.And Even still people were upset.
dont take there time to listen to the lyrics thaey just listen to the beat anyway keep up the hardwork
Elzhi is the best out at the minite that 'the hood is like the glass house the devil throw stones through' line was tight i had to rewind that shit haha
Peace out!
The argument is always gonna be mainstream vs. underground.
@carsonlevine13 I think that a big problem is that older HHHs say shit is garbage without realizing that it's a matter of taste. I don't claim to know any more than people younger than me. I claim to be an individual who loves Hip Hop, knows Hip Hop history and wants to share that love and knowledge with others.
@BigkKinny God, thank you.
@MrKeepit2000 you can listen to whatever you want. I do.Whether it's deemed too aggressive, too intellectual, soft, or just unpopular. Forget what others say.
The corporate does run it cause if the kids hear it on the radio they think its hot. The youth is where the money comes from, not us the older generation.
@corneliusrawness Not all forms of hip hop are easy to create. Simplistic beats, yes. More intricate beats layered with samples from multiple sources, no.
I think the problem lies in people believing that Lil Wayne and Soulja Boi is "Hip-Hop" in the first place. It's pop music ultimately, Hip-Hop is the just medium that they use to "express" their sound...if that makes sense.
I think it's a combination of rap containing a lot more profanity than other genres (apart from maybe metal), and the fact that most rappers have worse live performances than their studio albums due to the fact that they can't play instruments. The Roots are respected because they're an actual band
I think we can say that every genre is not respected depending on what we consider "respected". Generally speaking, the mainstream is garbage in every genre. Some people will say Metal is garbage but the only thing "Metal" they heard is like Slipknot. Same thing applies to Hip-Hop. It's easy to judge the genre and say it's garbage based on Lil Wayne, for example.
i don't think the situation with modern day hip hop is as bad as people make it out to be. hip hop is just assimilating into a modern genre like pop and rock, and with that you'll get your mainstream music, you'll get your manufactured music, and then you'll get more "legitimate" artists underground. i think part of the problem is the cultural attachment hip hop has to the hood and how we just saw how it started as a form of fun and expression to a corporate moneymaker. but it's no biggie
@corneliusrawness Really? By major radio? Is a Mastodon or Opeth or Meshuggah record going to get album of the year by Rolling Stone, Pitchfork, or Paste? No. Will hip hop? Yes, it's called My Dark Beautiful Twisted Fantasy.
I agree with most of the stuff that's being said. But I always think that black culture does not need to look to white people for approval. Arguments like "we're not being treated equally" when it comes to music, awards, protection in the community and role models always bothers me because at the end of the day.
It's NOT white peoples responsibility to take care of black culture.
It's our fault for not supervising hip hop
White people aren't evil, they're not illuminati.
It's called Protecting your interests first, and then taking care of others AFTER if there's resources left.
How many movies are there falsely portraying Indian people and Chinese people? Thousands. But those communities have never been that affected by how media portrays them BECAUSE they know it's not the media,s responsibility to raise their children.
We don't need radio to tell us what's good
Just because there's cheese burgers and fries being sold doesn't mean you have to buy it and eat it every day.
@beezy430 yo yall should talk about what if Joe budden and Jay Z still had beef and still were dissing each other on songs. also decide who would of won
@corneliusrawness there are different intricacies in hip hop that are not as easy as they appear. Not saying you, but others seem blind to them.
As a art form really though the majority of people think its easy music to make until they see how it is made stripped down then they respect it.
@YourDailyMusicNotes I'd say they are.
@rjdizinez Hip hop is enjoyed by a great deal of people. Enjoyment doesn't always equate to respect. I hate that an integral part was left out of this video and that's when Feefo admitted that Rick Ross is not a poet based on the fact that he doesn't like his lyrics even though he enjoys his music. A LOT of mainstream critics think that way. That's what we were covering here. Just because you have millions buying tickets to your show doesn't mean your music or artform is respected. Just enjoyed.
@MrKeepit2000 Who says you have to only like one type of music? Sounds like you're putting those restrictions on yourself.
The majority of younger people don't respect the culture of hip hop because they haven't or aren't being taught about it.
@mioluce I didn't say the sole fact of them being good musicians make them a good band. You said they were ridiculed for their music and lyrics. Ridiculed by who? People who don't enjoy the genre at all? Or people who know nothing about musicianship? That's really like someone who doesn't like experimental rap at all saying he doesn't like El-P. Are you really gonna debate his opinion?
@DRM406 Whoa...could Mastodon or Opeth get album of the year in Pitchfork or Paste? Definitely. That was a really bad example. Just because it hasn't happened doesn't mean it can't. Metal, while more accepted, is still not as widely accepted as hip hop only based on a popularity/money making standpoint.
@MrKeepit2000 Dude, what in the world are you talking about? Underground rappers don't get love because you never saw them at spots and they weren't popular in school? How do I even respond to something like that? And guys? One guy made that comment. It wasn't a collective thought.
Thing is... alot of people nowdays, think that the music they listen to IS rebellious... even with how Safe it all actually is. "Don't give a fuck" became the same thing as Rebellious. But that's another convo. People like Pac, PE, were rebellious because they DID give a fuck... and they spoke about WHY. The way Lupe, or Mos Def have been snatched off stages for speaking out... that never could have happened back day, lol... we Mobbed back then lol..
@JamesRRM there's nothing wrong with the intro.
That point about if an artist is not on the radio the masses think he's shit, IS SO TRUE. I think the young generation is lazy and has clouded minds. That's why when Drake raps about getting head in his condo up in Biscayne the kids go wild because they've been brainwashed by this fantasy lifestyle they wish to live, so they live it vicariously through these "artists". Its much harder for them to listen to guys like Rakim, Nas, Inspectah Deck, Chino XL, Reks, etc.
Knew Kinge was gonna say chuck d at the beginning but I was surprised myke didn't say el-p.
But when things like "Watch The Throne" happen, and they dont put out an album where they DONT have to fit the status quo, how could we expect the others to follow and be bold enough to do it too..HipHop Lives underground.