The Literal Worst Way to Interpret Norse Myth | Mythic Literalism
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- Опубліковано 27 чер 2024
- Patreon: / oceankeltoi
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Intro Assets by: / synje_grafx
Discord: / discord
music by Karl Casey @ White Bat Audio
Further Videos
Loki: • Why is Loki so Controv...
Hodr: • The Man Who Defeated T...
Vali: • Vidarr and Vali | Gods...
Baldr: • Baldur Is (not) the No...
Fenrir: • Fenrir The Destroyer |...
Jormungandr: • Jörmungandr | Nature's...
Gods of Heathenry: • The Many Gods of Heath...
Reciprocity: • How Does Worshipping T...
Defining the Gods: • Defining the Gods
Which Pantheon is True: • Which Pantheon is the ...
Monotheism vs Polytheism: • A Pagan Response to Mo...
Atheism vs Polytheism: • A Pagan Response to At...
Can We Know the Gods Exist?: • Can We KNOW the Gods E...
The Interpretation Argument: • The Interpretation Arg...
Viking Soul: • The Heathen Image of t...
Latent Christianity: • How Latent Christianit...
Original Mythic Literalism Video: • Christian Apologetics ...
Further Reading
- The Nature of the Gods - Cicero
- A World Full of Gods - John Michael Greer
- The Deities are Many - Jordan Paper
- The Case for Polytheism - Steven Dillon
- Outlines of Pyrrhonism - Sextus Empiricus
- Moralia - Plutarch - "On Superstition"
- Characters - Theophrastus
00:00 - Intro
01:29 - Defining Mythology & Other Terms
03:55 - Mythic Infallibility
07:16 - The Sources and Infallible Authors
14:53 - Mythic Literalism
17:06 - Latent Christianity
20:33 - Creationists and the Nature of the Gods
23:35 - Beliefs in History - Cicero and Superstitions
27:34 - The Problem of Mythic Literalism
29:05 - Variety & Contradiction of Sources
30:43 - Limited by Literalism
33:04 - Whats Really Important?
"stroke ymir's hair" just doesn't have the same ring as "touch grass"
🤔
I dunno, I kinda like it. It's just that basically no one would understand what I'm talking about if I said that 😢
I might start saying that. I like it lmao
new phrase against keyboard warriors
New Heathen joke just dropped
I am using this
Last time I was this early Odin was making people out of driftwood
Figuratively of course XD
We love our bald bearded youtuber talkin bout heathen shit 😂
"Humans are not infallible. Gods are not infallible. Therefore there is no one available in heathenry to produce an infallible text" is an extremely comforting thought for an ex Christian.
Also: trying to reinvent the wheels of an ancient faith using texts written SOLELY BY ITS ENEMIES is going to involve a LOT of guesswork and reading between the lines. Cause the authors of those texts were all strongly motivated (some more obviously than others) to present everything in what, to them, was the most unflattering way possible
Brother you really really need to write a book on the metaphysics of polytheism in particularly heathenism. That is a serious niche that needs to be filled.
Babe wake up, our blessed and most holy beard has spoken through its host once more.
Every time I turn on an Ocean Keltoi video, I am impressed and left with much to ponder. I hope life is treating you well, friend. Thanks for another great video!
2:49 I’m here for the glossary of definitions and word usages 😂
One of my favorite parts of paganism is to avoid the problem of evil, the idea of an omni deity is just a source of endless frustration for me. I'm glad to get away from it.
As a heathen, I’ve found that most Christians I know who scoff at Heathenry do so precisely because they themselves are mythic literalists. They often assume that their own literalist approach is universal amongst all religions.
Of you were a professor I would love to go to your classes. Everything you have talked about is so interesting and makes a lot of sense. Thank you.
So, in short: deriving facts about the gods from the stories is always hit or myth.
was asleep after my social battery being totally drained yesterday, woke up to this.
couldn't get better
"Christian Mythology is boring", finally someone said it.
Clearly, you've never heard of the saints. Well, tbf, the interesting ones are mostly pagan archetypes anyway lol
It’s supernaturally embellished history. Like Homer’s account of the Trojan War. Yes, there are archeological evidences for the mundane parts of the story, but there’s no evidence of the supernatural bits. Just like there’s evidence of the Trojan War, but no evidence of the involvement of Ares, Zeus, and other gods on both sides, there is evidence of certain kings in the Bible, but no evidence that Jesus walked on water or anything like that.
I mean it’s partially because we’re told it again an again every Christmas and Easter
Thor and Loki go on a literally legendary beer run
V.S
Jesus says fuck you tree for not bearing fruit out of season
Well, the story of Tamar is my favorite.
Strange they never talk about that when preaching.
Or the fact the Pharoa was called "cruel" because he requested 10% of the crops two times every year (because they had two harvests).
10% at all? The politicians today want 50% of everything in a good day (for us).
Loki’s binding to me is another poetic way to show he is the god of bindings, similar to his crafting of the fishing net.
Definitely wish for more of these more philosophical/theological discussion pieces. It’s something I’ve felt the pagan community has been lacking.
The split second 40k nod made my day 😂
It’s me!!! jOhN gRaMmAtIcUs!
I always feel like I gained a colony of new braincells when I watch your stuff. And also, I feel rejuvinated in my convictions. Thank you for taking all the time you do to put these together.
Absolutely! I'm glad you've enjoyed!
What I've come to understand is that Odin teaches us that seeking knowledge is difficult and can be dangerous, Heracles illustrates that while life is often unjust, we should keep going--a message similar to Beowulf--and on and on. Are the gods and heroes real in a historical or scientific sense? Who knows? But they are good stories for structuring a life.
I myth'd you.
I love the "I have a tattoo of this story!" interjection. Lol
Great information and well put together Ocean! Keep doing your thing.
At 27:52 I just gesticulated aggressively at my phone in agreement. That's another piece of what never sat right with me during sermons or studies. I think it's what is stopping me from reading either Edda now although I bought them both last year. Fear of being caught up in more of the same rules lawyering dogma decorated in a new religions aesthetic, rather than having the freedom to experience the stories for what they speak to me for my own growth. Which makes sense given my trauma was being forced to mask so hard in order to comply I didn't even know who I was until well into my 20's. I think I need to journal that, that feels important.
oh man, I have the same thing with the Eddas (and masking so completely like that). like yeah I want to read them (and enjoy retellings and people talking about the myths and stories), but no I don't want to find myself taking them so seriously I'm right back to that strict dogma and literalism I'm used to from Christianity. it feels like walking on eggshells to not slip back into that way of thinking, so my copy of the Poetic Edda sits unread for now as well 😔
Been talking to people alot about mythic literalism as of late so I'm stoked to see this video come out
If Christianity was so infallible there wouldn't be so many different interpretations of it. Methodist, pentacostal, etc
Hence the Interpretation Argument
@@OceanKeltoi if they were so infallible and their god was writing it through them or tell them what to write, and the author changed it the god would probably destroy them or knock them around. The same goes for our myths and legends. Our ancestors used a lot of kennings as well so we can't take everything as literal.
Lol. Imagine taking the kennings literally. Thats such a great point.
@@OceanKeltoi they used poetic prose in their legends of the people, why wouldn't they use it when talking about the gods as well.
@@KaosRunes From a Catholic background, the Bible is inspired by God, not dictated by God.
That is for Muslims where the Quran is uncreated and exist from the beginning with Allah.
BTW, we know we lost some book in the Bible, because some part of the Bible (Old Testament) make reference to another part we don't have.
The same holy texts, supposedly the same for all three religions are not shared: Muslims declare Jews and Christians "altered" the Bible. And the books included in the Bible are not the same between Christians and Jews.
Tyr's karma was dog maw.
Gods know I needed this today...
Note: I know you would've made this video anyway, but thank you Ocean, you always seem to upload at the right time.
“I think you misunderstand the myth”
“No, just Ask”
You lost the chance to say you mythunderstand
@@bezoticallyyours83 he just mythunderstood his own pun
This reminded me of a video by HelloFutureMe. He talks about fiction, wrtiting and world building. It gets worse Ocean Keltoi!! People are taking literal fiction literally!!! In one of his latests videos "Should Azula be redeemed?" he talks about how characters are not real people but parts of a narrative that serve the purpouse of a message. People in real life shouldn't abandon a 14year old girl in a prision somewhere when all the love and validation she knew came from a psycopathic narcissist but Azula is not a real girl, she is the foil of Zuko's characterization. Zuko embodies the hope that you can break the cycle and nurture meaningful connections and Azula is the warning of how hers is an empty life. My favorite quote from that video is "Zuko becoming the Firelord is not a commentary on how monarchy is a valid form of government".
So yeah, literary literalist apparently, big facepalm.
18:00 if someone says "Everything comes from Zagreb," is that a believer in Croationism?
As always, thank you, Ocean. Of all the heathen content out there, yours is by far the best. I appreciate your humility and excellent explanations. I always feel spiritually uplifted after watching your videos. Thank you for all you do. I see and appreciate your hard work.
Loved this well done! I Always learn so much from your videos. Thank you !
Very nice! Was figuratively glued to my screen.😊
Another great overview, as per usual. Ya spoil us, Ocean-thank you.
0:39 - 0:46 The opening already framed it perfectly: the ‘slightly different question’ on the reality of the gods, with the implication of dismissal on the part of the questioner.
When I encounter this, I attempt to clarify that the concept of there being minds greater than human is genuinely profound, and is not the same question as to whether characters in stories are real.
Good stuff Ocean! Very important information to get out there, especially the arguments against literalism and the connection between biblical literalism and mythic literalism. Also, great performance throughout; the points of comedy and sincerity came across well.
I'm not QUITE the target audience, but as someone with a passing interest in Nordic mythology and a passion for worldbuilding, this has been enlightening for how to interpret old myths for inspiration. It's the spirit of the thing I should heed, so I don't get hung up on the details. Otherwise, it'd be a hollow imitation.
There’s some people who watch this channel who are dungeon masters and are using this channel to build realistic characters for their sessions with players. I think its a really cool way to engage with the content.
Yesss new Ocean video! I was just wondering what I was gonna do with my evening. Now I have my answer.
If a god/goddess had a single, unbreakable truth in mind, we'd be born knowing it.
Ocean is back! I was thirsty for heathen content. ...That sounds dirty, but I'm sticking with it.
Often "mythic literalists" also take a pious "I am a better heathen than you because I really believe these stories as factual more than you do", which is not the case at all.
It is hard to explain this to someone, that they are wasting time being angry over details in myth stories, because if you try they turn around and imply your spirituality is deficient compared to their "my faith and true believer" nonsense is "superior".
Thanks for this video~ I hope it will help a lot of heathens
Well well look who showed up.. glad to see you on UA-cam 🤘🤘👍😁
I love your videos, keep up the great work.
Oh it is so good to see another video from you! I was starting to fret that our Beard had forsaken us 😂❤
Love these kind of videos!
You just had to drop this on a holiday weekend where I had to wait to be able to sit and enjoy it :P
I find the relationship with the gods needs to be way more personal than mythic literalism allows. When you are talking about powerful, but not ALL powerful, beings that exist beyond space and time and are largely seen in the natural world around us, you can't put them neatly in a box and say that's how it is. The tales and lore were not concocted to put asses in the pews and foster a fearsome control over people's actions. An animist shaman living in the wild, partaking of plants, reading the signs of nature. That's how we probably got most of our information regarding so many of the Indo-European tales that seem to permeate the mythos of the various parts of the ancient world.
I have found that knowing the gods is best when you don't try to put a strangle hold on what they are. They can be very loud, but most of the time their actions are subtle. I have felt the warm and tenacious protective strength of Thor many times. At no time did I ever feel that he was a giant red-bearded guy holding a massive, if short (no judgement), hammer. So while when in ritual i may call upon Thor as "The striker, chariot rider, wielder of Mjolnir, etc", "protector of Midgard" is what I feel is most important. My interactions with him have mostly felt like him nudging things out of the way that meant me and mine harm. I don't see him as a literal brawny dude braining giants and monsters to solve issues. I see him as more of a force that guides these dangerous natural things (storms, damage, violence, etc) away from whom he is protecting. That means more to me than him literally catching a world encircling monster on a fishing trip. Although much respect if he really has the gams to pull off a wedding dress.
To me, the most beautiful aspect of my religious/spiritual path is the lack of dogma. Now, with that freedom comes the responsibility to not go down a path of fluffy bunnery, but while the lack of a "big book of truths" can be frustrating it can also be freeing in a way that a more dogmatic religion cannot. It's not a set of hard and fast rules. It takes time in practice and in homework to find your path, but to me it is a much more rewarding road to trod than any literalist could force themselves onto.
This video is going to do good for the community. Thank you for explaining this expertly, yet easy understandable.
Yey, been looking forward to this topic 😊
This video was a long time coming and so important. As always, this is a remarkable breakdown and one I’ll be watching multiple times. Thanks you!
Okay, I have to insert my bad joke at 13:28. Someone who stubbed their toe the wrong way could have written history. Okay, I'll stop there. This is a good video.
An excellent, and much needed, video. Much food for thought, many great points made.
Excellent vid. As modern pagans, we are not reminded often enough that our sacred stories are presented in the form of poetry: Iliad? poetry. Theogony? Poetry. Rig Veda? Poetry. Poetic Edda? Poetry... this alone should remind us to never take any of these stories literally. Anyone who studies poetry has been taught that poetry makes free use of metaphor, allegory, hyperbole and anthropomorphism to 'suggest' and 'imply' deeper truths... poetry is seldom explicit or factual. And I think you're right, many of us coming from a Christian background come into paganism with baggage such as the Christian idea that there is one singular 'canon,' that there must be one 'correct' version of every myth, and that our lore is somehow infallible... meanwhile, ancient pagans held none of these ideas. In ancient Egypt alone, every major city had its own creation story and we never hear of them having civil wars over it.
I really like your videos. This one was particularly good. Thx! 😉
Here's some shiny teef. Hopefully, i can join yall for a gathering someday. In the meantime, encourage wolf the red to upload more. It's the closest i can get to a gathering.
Thanks so much!!
I literally saw ocea and immediately clicked my phone a thousand times OCEAN!!
I love this
SAME
He lives
Great video!
11:45 ...probably not
😂😂
Please keep making content. Your videos are informative, interesting, and funny. Thank you for your hard work.
Thank you so much for your great work..lot of love from Chile..
Great to hear from you ya crazy turtle wizard
Yesss, the return of the Hair Fart!
I love how you explain your point of view while also expressing how other narratives fit as well. It makes your content feel more welcoming, like a safe space for thought dialogue. I hope that makes sense. Anyway another great video, thank you for all the work you put into these
Informative and funny as always : )
Keep up the good work
Evig ild og SKÅL
I would love to hear more information on Epicurean polytheism.
Cicero’s The Nature of the Gods has an Epicurean who speaks at length. You’d just have to trust Cicero to be accurately representing what he disagrees with. Its a really interesting dialogue.
Great video man. Always great to hear what you have to say.
21:56
I’m sorry, but I now identify as a stick, and I still soon become a wizard’s staff. You cannot stop me.
is this what is meant by being on staff?
Wanted to give thanks for your videos and the knowledge that comes with them, so, thank you.
My pleasure!
Awesome video. you put it into words alot of what I've been thinking and feeling about some things for awhile now. I just couldn't formulate the words to describe it myself.. gj brother
Ocean you made me dig into polytheism alot more and made me realize its something I believe so i thank you for that! I'm more attracted to the greek pantheon then the Norse mainy because i always loved the old greek story's but i really appreciate you opening my eyes more I used to believe that all the gods were just archetypes for different aspects of nature but but the more I researched it the more it didn't make sense to me and you're one of the main reasons why I started looking into it more so I truly appreciate it hail the omnipotent beard!
Shakespeare: the Immortal Bard
Ocean: the Immortal Beard
Thank you once again, ocean. You continue to broaden our minds and help us learn
WoO is a great example of a mythic literalist. He not only seems to take it all at the word of the author, and then pushes that as the way to go about it, and to see him as an authority. He seems to straight up believe we are on an arm pit.
Very important video. I started to feel like I was somehow wrong being heathen because I don't literally believe in the myths. And get frustrated when an atheist assumes so. I believe the gods exist but the myths are ways HUMANS have connected with them. They are probably stories, very old upg maybe a dream one had that helped them draw closer to the gods. Humans have to put names into feelings. They put the name Thor for this masculine protector type deity. The myths help us understand the gods and their nature but arnt ment to be taken literally. From a scientific minded person it just never made sense to me. And I was often confused as hell feeling such a strong draw and strong presence from the gods. Even responses from them after an offering. But I couldn't make the literal myths make sense in our physical world history. Because again the myths are to help us understand not be taken literally.
Great stuff! Thank you!
I swear I've been listening to this video for an hour and a 1/2. How is it only 30 minutes long?
Absolutely fire video 🔥🔥🔥
Fascinating video. It defiantly gives me a different perspective to consider while I contemplate my spirituality. Well done!
More videos like this, please. Champion among heathens!
Superstition in the Danish language highlights this meaning. "Overtro". Literally 'excessive belief'
Thanks for another great video!
I sincerely believe that videos like this one will become foundational to the next generation of Heathens. Understanding how we read the myths, how we interpret them, and what they can tell us about the Gods and our relationship with them is vitally important.
Like Folkism, I think some groups will use mythic literalism to push a specific pre-conceived agenda. Rather than learning and growing from the myths, they use a limited interpretation to justify erroneous beliefs. Hopefully videos like this will help turn people away from this way of looking at these sources and broaden their perspective on what Heathenry can be.
I always interpreted Ymir’s Skull as being the Oort Cloud. Comparing the Norse description of Midgard to an outline of the Solar System gets surreal. Even Jormungandr aligns with the Asteroid Belt. 🌌
Damn…my mind is blown
Dagnabit!!! I posted a link to the UA-cam channel Grimfrost. They are a Norse Pagan group, and they have a great video about the return of the belief in the Aseir (Tyrs Aterkomst [The Return of Tyr] by the group Hindarfjall).
Like the video ,great fan & love all of your work (keep it up ❤👍😊)
I think what you say here can also apply to reading about any mythology. Literary and oral stories offer a glimpse into the beliefs of a given culture, but they can only reveal so much when not considering the other factors that go into their telling, and they're never a perfect summary nor are they meant to be taken word for word (of course I'm not perfect either so please feel free to correct me).
finally!
Wow. Loved the video. Saving it up for the next time somebody starts bugging me about my beliefs and the eddas...
I can not wait for you to make more videos about this topic specifically! I have always been fascinated by theology of all kinds! It’s Christmas in heaven when the Mormons come to my door lol
I always think of the myths as true, in some way. Just as the ancients who wrote them down were inspired by the Muses (or equivalent) and thus probably a bit mad, so too we need to be a bit mad to interpret them.
And if someone says "that's a myth" I say "so it's true then? Thanks for confirming that for us."
It makes sense especially when it's cloudy
Though I love the subject matter I also really love the way you construct your points.
Thanks so much!
We have to Look at the sagas, myths etc like we look at a scientific text. We have to find the bias to classifie and understand them. In my opinion myths show us an event or story that was found important enough to be saved for future generations. And the changed from skald to skald a little bit. They tell us more about the mindset and points of view in former times, than about a special historical event.
Sorry for my english, it is not my mothertoung, but I give my best.
So I'm currently reading the Aeneid, and I know it was written by Virgil during the time of Augustus Caesar, so I don't assume the events of the story actuly took place, however it does tell you a lot about what Virgil thought of the character of the gods and which gods they prayed to and for what.
You get minute glimces of some cultic practice and so forth. So while the story isn't strickly true it is useful for understanding the gods.
exactly!
Thank you, sir. Going to be using this in my lectures.
Go for it!
Having a fairly irreligious-yet-spiritual childhood, I always had a fascination with science and the natural world, as well as world mythology. I recognized at a young age that there were so many stories about creation and the natural world that, sure, weren't factually accurate, but were beautiful and poetic and illuminating in their cultural significance. Now, as a heathen, I'm able to walk into the mountains and the desert, walk down a beach, watch a thunderstorm gather, and recognize the biological, geological, climatological, etc, and also see the fierce power of Skaði, beauty and vitality of Jörð, the strength of Thor. It doesn't take anything away from my belief and experience to not take the myths literally, and my exposure to mythic literalists has always left me, not only baffled, but also with a feeling of pity that they are missing out on a whole level of wonder with which they could be approaching the gods and landvættir.
I enjoy this topic. I'm a Hellenic Polytheist, I say the Gods are real. I don't take myths as literal. I also think, since I was first a witch, the Myths could be viewed in an occult way or a metaphorical way. I don't really think most Gods are omniscient, omnipotent, omnibenevolent etc. I think the Gods that are close to omnipresent would be the Gods of sex/reproduction, love, death, birth/life etc. I don't know how a person can believe that Zeus is all knowing because he gets tricked all the time. My inner child wishes that the Myths were real. Do I think that Prometheus sculpted every human from Gaia's clay? No. But do I believe it in a metaphorical and possibly esoteric way? Yes. I have been meaning to film a video on my believes and view points. For some reason in the Hellenist community I hear semi frequently that all ancient Greeks did not view their Myths as real....which to me is complete bs because HOW do we know what ALL ancient Greeks believed? If there are Bible literalists and modern mythic literalists..then why wouldn't there be mythic literalist in Ancient Greece?? It's a bit all or nothing thinking.
Wait...wait...wait....You mean the sky ISN'T a skull?!?!?! On a serious not, your mention of creationists and dinosaurs reminds me of my Christian days. I had heard (and studied) so many different theories attempting to bend science to mythic literalism. Awesome content as usual, easy to understand yet thought-provoking!
Good video ocean, I think exploring the accessibility and how to provide spiritual growth should be considered as well as concentrated on in the over all heathen community as a whole more often.
Would love to see a video on how you perceive and imagine gods, that would really answer to a lot of questions. Unless there already is such video and I missed it
This was very interesting! Thank you once again.
I do have a question, since you mention you are somewhat of a sceptic as well as a polytheist. How do you combine scientific knowledge about the world with a polytheist view? I'm very curious about that. Thanks in advance for people who can share their views.
I'm sort of searching for my path myself, and the fact that I grew up with a scientific worldview and have studied and worked in a scientific field always makes the polytheist thing seem strange to me. Strange but inspiring.
Yes, I'm still here. The intro/outro music is a bop, okay?
Ocean I appreciate you brother you have given me a great understanding of polytheism
It does help! I've literally been going in circles about which direction I want to go in or which gods I want to follow. Having someone tell this autistic man that is about our morals and life philosophy will propel me further into my journey
Great discussion. Thank you.