@@OceanKeltoi Woops indeed. But hey it’s great to be open to polytheistic religions. I wonder what that early Christians would’ve thought about Shinto and the multiple kami worshiped? They probably would’ve had the same reaction of ‘people straying from the path’.
@@OceanKeltoi Many would be surprised that the book of Galatians in the judeo-christian Bible gives us a glimpse of Norse paganism through The Eyes of Paul of Tarsus. It is the first instance of Christians equating Odin with Christ and even the Cross of Christ with Yggdrasil. The comparison makes sense when one perceives Christianity through the lens of animism, which is self-evident to be the original Christian philosophy, as Paul of Tarsus stated in Acts 17 "in God we live move and have our being." This of course is confirmed by many things that Jesus said such as "whatever you do to the least of these that you do to me." And the three laws Jesus gave to replace Mosaic law, "do unto others as you would have them do unto you; love God with your whole heart whole mind and whole soul; love thy neighbor as thyself." At one point Paul expresses his relationship with the Galatians by comparing the Galatians to Odin and himself to Mimir by stating "...if it were possible you would have given your right eyes to me." With this it is eye-opening that Paul had already compared Odin to Christ, condemning a practice that some have theorized was done by the practitioners of the Seidr; the ordeal in which seers would hang themselves upside down from a tree; Paul of Tarsus seems to confirm this practice when he States "...do you not know anyone who hangs from a tree is condemned?" Meditating on this it seems that Paul was upset by the objectification, "idolatry" of focusing on material things by performing an imitation of Jesus crucifixion in lieu of performing an imitation of Odin on yggdrasil. I think Bruce Lee can sum up Paul's philosophy when he said "Do not look at the finger or you will miss all that Heavenly Glory." What else could a Christian be teaching other than Animism which would cause people who are effectively practicing Asatru to be amazed? Taking what Paul said on Mars Hill, in Acts 17, into consideration, it is evident that what we call Christianity Today is not Christianity at all. Contrary to the Christian perspective, as well as its methods, with follows Peter's philosophy of conversion as opposed to Paul's philosophy of philosophical dialogue ( it is evident that Peter and Paul were not fond of each other). Nonetheless, Christians would be appalled to realize that the true gospel is actually quite pagan; I could write a book on this subject. I think Paul of Tarsus and Jesus of Nazareth are the two most misquoted and taken out of context philosophers in history. Christianity looks for the kingdom of God in the afterlife, when the true message is that the kingdom of God is already here and all we need to do is follow God's law which is written in the fabric of nature: it is ironic that Christianity is guilty I've so much oppression and genocide when its original form gave rise to the concept of unalienable natural rights, which is known as Natural Law, Declarationism and Classical Liberalism: it truly is a miracle that Thomas Aquinas was not burnt at the stake for heresy for many of the things he said in Summa Theologica: Paul wrote extensively about freedom and the right of free agency, and that Christ is the element within nature that gives us these rights. Christ equals God's word equals God's law equals natural law as opposed to the laws of men. Very Pagan indeed. In closing, contrary to the Christians interpretation of the Doom and Gloom of Revelations, it is quite evident that the Book of Revelations predict the impact that the Roman Empire would have on the entire world; the Christians today think that the tribulation is near or just starting, when in truth it began with the birth of Augustus Caesar; we know this because the star of Caesar is referred to as wormwood. In essence the book of the Apocalypse isn't about the destruction of the world but about the fall of the spirit of the Roman Empire through the Awakening of the people among the nations of the Earth, in line with every one of those ancient Prophecies of the Awakening, which has been whispered through the genetic memory of every human being who honors their ancestors. Be at peace for the Christians as we know them today will have a rude awakening when they realize they stand as goats, not lambs, before the Divine natural law, which they call the bema seat. In short, the whole of Christianity is apostate. When you want to find out the truth about a religion, don't talk to the idiot members of the fan club, talk to the god from which it came.🤗 Caesar has been the enemy and is still the enemy of us all, every tribe and every people. Hail the Gods All My Relations With love and honor from a mestizo Apache-Viking and Native America ✌🦅🌲🇺🇸
@@mirandagoldstine8548 early Christians believed in animism, quite Pagan in their philosophy as opposed to the fake Christianity we have today. Please read my response on this thread. There is a whole lot more juicy stuff that I have learned through research and the seidr.
I dont read it like that, think of it this way, christian scholar writing on a collection of stories from someone else's ethnicity/culture. Although he is enamoured enough with the norse culture to write about it, how enamoured can he sound if he intends to keep his career. Maybe he endorses an already popularised belief that the pagans are practitioners of black magic that pray to wizards and sorcerer's, cementing him as a forward thinking christian, and thoroughly "one of us".
I had to chuckle at Noah in a Norse setting.... I just imagine him trying to explain to a bunch of old salts that only this one boat could survive the biblical flood.
I think the bigger issue would be those old salts trying convince Noah that maybe that god that is threatening to kill every person in the world is maybe not super worth worshiping. I mean, I know Thor could be a little bit... difficult... to deal with, and would not be surprised if old Norse people did associate bad weather with Thor and Freyr being angry with them but... man, Genesis is really intense
@@emiliobustamante2401 Women get angry and throw things at their husbands. Some thunder storms with a lot of noise and barely any rain or lightning was Thor just yelling back at his wife. All bark & no bite.
I can't state how important this group (Ocean, Wolf, Beo, etc) has become to me. Online heathenry is, let's just say, a bit woo-ey, and y'all are pillars of decency and integrity.
No doubt, if it's not a bunch of complete retards there're NAZIS. Jackson Crawfords channel is a dandy as well, not really a Hethean channel but he's a college professor who specializes in Norse/heathen history. He puts out some really good information.
@@shelltowee8629 Using that R-word as an insult is really not cool. It's actively harmful to people who you likely don't intend to hurt when you use it. Please think about that.
@@lysanamcmillan7972 so I have to self-sensor cause your sensitive, what happened to sticks and stones break your bones but words can never hurt you, how about ya quit being so God damn sensitive and focus that attention on a real issue.
We literally believe that there are deities who have been in existence since the beginning of existence itself who regularly interact with human beings and do really unbelievable things like own belts that increase strength and ride around on carts guided by massive cats. The entire concept is “woo-ey”. Unless you’re a boring materialist atheopagan (basically a hippie) then you, just like everyone else who believes in the northern tradition are cooks crazies and lunatics. Be proud of the insanity that inhabits your mind and enriches your life
I feel like some of this perspective is from someone who's studied myths on Merlin. What we know of Merlin is very similar to Odin but with an emphasis "knowledge is dangerous."
very good video tonight, it makes some good points and gives you food for thought, i will never look at sources in quite the same way again and this is justifiable
Thank you man. I descend from Germanic families who migrated to Texas. I have had many of dreams and visions of the Norse Gods. For a while I was trying to follow the path but was put off by the stories of some of their death. It is not what I imagined God to be, a thing that could die. To me, God is immortal. So I had and still am very into Hinduism, Shiva, Vishnu, Kali and such. But one thing is for sure, I do not recall ever having visitations of this pantheon as I do with the Norse. I mean it's immediate. Even before I clicked on this video. I saw it.. the spirit realm coming through.. of a small youtube add saying, "Ahh I'm on my way home." And the one who said it looked right into the camera and the moment became so alive. A few months ago, I had called upon the Norse deities again, this time Thor, and that night I had a dream of a lightning ball in front of me hovering, then I was in a wooden house and someone knocked, I opened the door and it was a Norse man with long red hair, of strength, warlike but of good cheer too. I woke up and knew instantly, that was it was Thor. There are too many stories to tell, of the visitations of Odin and Freya. Revealing things to me that I had never known, but are popular characteristics of them. Also a dream revealing to me one of my pronounced Germanic bloodline ties, the Goths. Later I took a DNA test and according to their results the DNA I have of ancient populations is #1 Visigoths. But yea, it was a needed thing to hear.. about how the stories presented are all made up by Christians.. Odin dying just never sat right with me. Thanks for reminding me to focus on my understanding of the world and not that of others (their writings) like it is the 'infallible word of God'.
It sounds like Geoffrey's "History of the Kings of Britain" story....or at least the beginning of it with Brutus leaving Troy and landing in Greece, and then traveling on to the north to live.
Personal opinion: I feel that the sacrifice of Odin of Himself to Himself is actually mirrored in a verse from the Hovamol: by your getting measure thy gift. So by the cycle of reciprocity you have a god being offered a god and as a result being given by some other power the runes as a means of ultimate wisdom.
Great stuff, Ocean! Really informative and insightful as usual. Is there any chance you may be making a video on Tyr any time soon? I feel like there isn't a lot of information on him out there in video format. (Also, I got to feed the algorithm)
I'm pretty sure it should be the gallic war. After all, it's concerned with the gauls, the celtic tribes living in what is now modern day france. The gaelic war would refer to the gaels, the celtic tribes living in scotland, ireland and the isle of man.
Hallå Oceanen! I believe in you and your concept! I think your channel will get big, so get ready to be famous my friend! /a swede! (Not the vegetable)
@Ocean Keltoi the picture for this video is misleading. It reads “Was Odin just some old Wizard.” But, when you click on it to activate the link it takes one to this video about bias. Please be advised.
its my personal theory that loki leading/causing ragnarok is Christians trying to equate him to their devil. in all the other stories he doesn't act like this being of evil that wants to destroy the world and kill the gods. it just doesn't make sense and isn't consistent with his personality enough for me to subscribe to at least that part of the ragnarok story.
If there's one thing I know about history (and the news media), it's that EVERY source is biased in some way. Including the bible. We just have to do the best with what we have and sort of average out the available sources to arrive at an educated guess of the truth
23:22 I am most certainly not an ex-Christian. However, I'd add that Nerthus worship in Tacitus: * concerns an idol of the cosmic, totally non-eumeric kind (a demon) * and that her name is identic to that of Odin's rival (both Saxo and Snorre's Heimskringla consider Skade = Frigga). I think it is very possible an indigenous heathen priest or priest king, named Nerthus for the goddess he worshipped, became divinised in the new cult he helped to start. And which hadn't come through as far down as in Denmark yet, which is where Tacitus discusses her.
Sword hand for tyr Blood for thor Heart for Freya Life for odin Hail to the Æsir Hail to the vånir Hail to our ancestors Wise words and healing hands while we live
Marcomir King of the Sicambri. Marcomir brought his people out of Scythia and conquered Gaul where they settled. He died in 412 B.C. first King of the Sicambri, who took possession of what is now Holland in the year of the world 3573. , The Sicambri are a good place to look for clues of the Germanic, then look for Fornjót , the first King of Kvenland . The birth of the Vikings .
Not sure if anyone’s mentioned this before, but it may be important to note that Germania by Tacitus isn’t a primary source. Tacitus, himself, never went to Germania and the text itself is better understood as a lit review of Ancient Roman texts pertaining to the tribes of Germania from what I understand.
10:18 W a i t ... did Saxo consider Odin longlived enough to make later appearances in person? Same guy who went to Uppsala? My own euhemerism on this is, the wizard who plunged a sword later known as Gram in the oak in Völse's hall, either was later mistaken for Odin, or simply played the part (a bit like Phantom of Bengali pretends to have been alive for centuries).
Specifically, did Saxo consider the Odin who betrayed Bjarki as identic to the one who had come to Uppsala? I think he specifically says, Odin was burned after death and Med-Odin ("the co-Odin") went down as a vampire killed in Finland, so putting Odin in Bjarki's time as identic to either would be anachronistic, strong sense, like Perseus meeting an Atlas mad bc Hercules had fooled him.
Odin=iron man based on Indo-European dialect. Yes Odin is the iron man of old. The original man of steel. the list goes on. Thor and Thrace is interested considering saffron was grown there in ancient times. Sif golden hair is another intriguing link. Just keep eye on the the small details.
After the video : euhemerism. As you mention, it served to discredit the heathen as theologians, they mistook men for god. It also served to credit them as historians. _"Yeah, sure, Romulus was no god, but_ *his followers* _took him for one, because they loved him"_ ... freely after St. Augustine. In other words, Romulus existed. Your avoidance of euhemerism balks you from seeing that beings we take for men, but heathens took for gods are at the dawn of the Yngling dynasty. I may be partial, as a Swede. Speaking of which, Snorre, as a post-Republican Icelander, that is as a Norwegian subject, was also partial to the Ynglings, and that is why he, unlike Saxo, credited them with Trojan ancestry - you know the ancestry that makes Aeneas stand out as ancestor of Caesar or Brutus as ancestor of British kings ("when the siege and the assault had ceased at Troy" if you recall the prologue to Sir Gawain and the Green Knight in Tolkien's translation). Saxo was less partial to Ynglings, so he didn't. While being equally euhemerist and putting Odin's appearance right in Sweden, not Denmark. Despite Skjoldungs being credited with Odinid ancestry. A N D the one Christian historian who did discredit the historic existance of Odin also put him round the timespan where Snorre does _"but that tale is ridiculous, for one it is the true God who gives victory and not these false gods, and for another, Godan is a Greek magician called Mercury, who lived 1000 years earlier."_ (Freely after Historia or Gesta Langobardorum, by Paul the Deacon). You describe Odin in Havamal, "hanged and sacrificed to himself" (you know the poem more by heart than I do) as a reference to Christ, but have you considered, there are Shamans who do rites after which they consider themselves as incarnating the relevant gods or spirits ... hanging nine nights from a tree (I don't think he said "dead") and surviving after it, sounds like the nose wasn't tight around the neck and probably some sort of Shamanistic initiation.
Snorri isn’t contradicting himself though. Doesn’t he say on the text how important it is to record the stories accurately even if they are prechristian? His idea of the Aesir coming from Turkey is his idea of what really happened, from his position as a Christian, but then he goes ahead to preserve accurately for posterity these traditional stories that would otherwise have been lost forever.
I have been writing some short fiction and have considered bringing in some European Gods. I would likely have Odin be an old immortal wizard compared to some other creatures in the story. But he would be in a much more honorable position in my tales if I do. The God in my tales being the Christian one is the villain of the story already. It is somewhat a mashup of Lovecraft mythos and Gnostic Christianity. But playing fast and loose with everything and just building on coincidences so I can write my own myths. I plan to make it clear time and time again that what I am doing is fiction and just an attempt to flip some perspectives. Thank you for all this information though, it is going be a lot to juggle around in my head before my tales use any of it.
It's amusing to consider the notion that the Christians made up some of the stories or added their own spin on them and then heathens took the innovations and said, that's nifty. Let's keep them. A living tradition is going to change over time, and some of that change will be in response to interactions with other traditions. One of Christianity's flaws is its insistence on orthodoxy--often when it's clear that even Christiantiy has shifted as the years have passed.
The euphemism of Odin as wizard make me laught but we clearly see Tolkinen create Gandalf as an character for The Lord Of The Ring. Ragnarök is more epic than the apocalypse of the new testament
Gaelic (Gay-Lick) refers to people and languages that came out of Ireland. Gallic (Gal-Lick) refers to Gaul, the term the Romans used for roughly Roman France. Through after writing that out, I’m sure you know that, and you were just rolling with a mispronunciation. Lol
I understand people's desires to have a direct heathen source. But I also think, even through the bias, what we have is phenomenal. There's something more accessible and useable when you have to do a little reading and make up your own damn mind. I mean, how many stories and poems can you recite? Skalds may have remembered many, but most likely the average person remembered the few that resonated most with them, and therein found their faith. That's comforting, in a way.
Odin reads like a crazy celtic druid honestly. While Loki reads like a crazy sailor. And Hønir could be a crazy hunter-gather shaman local to scandinavia, but very vague due to the low population numbers prior to boats and celto-germanic expansion.
For what it's worth I am that one Christian that constantly pisses off other Christians by pointing out that the bible's basically been mutilated to suit the needs of whoever had the power to do so so many times that it should be regarded with an entire bucket of salt. One of the things I highly respect about my pagan friends is their willingness to admit that their source material's full of biases. If more Christians were willing to admit that to themselves, we'd probably all be better off for it
Preach! And I mean that legitimately! The thing about how to have a relation with gods, is being able to have to show that despite their power, you are willing to act more as an equal in the relationship. Rather than being a submissive yes man/woman.
Thank you. I was raised in a very open-minded household and I was raised to understand that you need evidence to back up a claim so I don’t like it when people (fundamentalists) claim that everything that happened in the Bible is true and that we need to follow it because the evidence we have mostly says otherwise. I’ll admit that unfortunately the source material for neo-druids are rife with a Roman bias. I mean we don’t have any surviving documents written by Celts and the surviving material we do have on the druids depicts them as being below the Romans which is a shame. Also there are Celtic pantheons missing from written records such as the pantheon of the Celts of what’s now Austria. I have checked and so far I have found no mention of the deities the Celts of Austria honored and worshiped.
The "Mutiliation" of the Bible didn't really start happening until the past century, you know, when people with the mindset such as yourself that the Bible had been 'changed' somehow. They claim to be going back to the oldest source texts but, they interpret the texts so differently.
I'm very happy that when your mention the Sámi, you actually take the time to explain the oppression dealt to my ancestors by christian monarchies and for five centuries of horrors still haunts Sámi people. I'm a direct descendant of the last noaiddi of Jokkmokk/Jåhkåmåhkke(Julevsámigiella), for which both stories within my family(on my fathers side) and the horrors mentioned above have had an enormous impact on me, my upbringing(born and raised outside of Sápmi) and especially now as an adult. For I am today an animist-agnostic, but I'm questioning that position. The remains of the Old Sámi religion is even less preserved than that of the Old Norse/Germanic pre-chistian religion and the research about the noaiddi isn't significant enough(nothing less then due to the colonialist systems that still lingers on). That's why I asked the question about how much similarities there are between seiðr and the sacred landmarks/objects used by the noaiddi for worship. I'm very interested to get to know how much does the different crafts/traditions shared from each other, that is prevelant in the sources about the late roman to early medieval Scandinavia? I will discuss with both heathens in my own town and my northward relatives(may not be fully without of family biases) for opinions about the question. P.S. I loved the video about Bragi, because I'm very fond of feasting, art, passion and poetry deities of all kinds. Artistic and social fullfilment is very important to me and inspiration is for me an almost "divine force" in a way.
"the historical documents serve not as the whole truth but as a window into the past that includes truths as told through the lenses of the dominant culture at the time," call that Critical Norse Theory
Coming from a background of many years of Pentecostal Christianianity. I definitely brought some of these biases to my faith in the Norse Deities. Possibly the most problematic was my internalised thoughts that if you don’t do everything correctly that you move further away from the Gods and that only their forgiveness could bring me back into relationship. I have found Ocean’s work has liberated me by showing the biases in the sources and my latent Christianisation. I now approach the gods differently and am so grateful. Thank you Ocean for your scholarship and explanations.
@@MrLeadbutterfly People tend to forget that the ability to bicker & insult were regarded as social verbal .. artforms .. at one time. And Loki had a nack of calling out people's flaws and insulting their virtues as if they were their personal vices.
The Norse gods couldn't even save their people from being beaten by the God of the Bible in war. You want to serve these gods who could not defeat one lone God?
@@DRYeisleysCreations ragnarok was predicted and in a way, the Christian invasion of Northern Europe is Ragnarok. Odin died in the peoples hearts and minds for hundreds of years. The Heathens wouldnt have lost if the Christians werent so deceitful. Heathens were welcoming of Christ, and many accepted Christ on the Heathen Pantheon before the forced conversion. Let's also not forget the "convert or die" mindset of Christians of the age, basically making Christianity at the time equal to ISIS
@@GunnerBob92 Hel, a lot of christians still have the "convert or die" mindset. Not quite the same, but my Catholic, lesbian mother (yes I see the irony, no she doesn't) has told me "maybe I would have been a better mother if you believed in God." In many ways, Christians have not changed.
Hi, danish person here :) Saxo's bias was always explained to me as being a mixture of him being a bishop and his wishes to please his benefactor, the king (i believe it was one of the Valdemars), who was very christian and went on crusades to spread christianity and defeat the heathens to the east
I really do want to find all the original Pagan sources but I don't find any problem with the books that you mentioned above I have them all and I enjoyed them
If you want sources written by pagans, I heavily suggest checking out philosophy written by the Greeks and Romans. The Gods are often discussed. Some examples would be Theogony by Hesiod and On the Nature of the Gods by Cicero.
Thank you I will Research into those. I personally am not a Christian hater coming from a very Jewish background so I can enjoy many of those Christian Author books. My favorite being history of the Danes. One day I hope to get to sit and talk with you or one of your other real Heathen friends and have a really cool discussion Faith the Heathen way because your videos and Your Friends videos have helped me on my path so much
@@OceanKeltoi I am brand new to the channel. Always been interested in Heathenry and Norse Paganism so of course I love the content. Just curious if you have any suggestions for some podcasts to listen to that are geared towards Heathenry. Whether it be history, modern practice, etc. thank you for all your work man 🤘🏼
@@OceanKeltoi can I ask a question? If I have Scandinavian and Welsh with more Hispanic and native American blood can I still follow norse paganism? Can anyone try to follow the religion
@@betterdays2006 Anyone can. Pre-Christian European religions (And even the old Sumerian religion) are often related and Asatru has Animism and Shamanism aspects as well; like many original beliefs all around the world. I think Native Americans would have related to a lot in Asatru. But the advantage to live in Scandinavia is that we have all the ancient holy places of worship, we have the old graves of our heathen ancestors back to the Stone Age, we have the rock carvings from the Bronze Age with the earliest pictures of our Gods. We have all the rune stones and we have the place-names themselves that still use our old Gods names for places. Like if you live in the suburb Västra Frölunda in the city Gothenburg you live where there was a Lund to Frö (Frölunda), a sacrificial holy grove to the God Freyr. And there is a ice hockey team with that name. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fr%C3%B6lunda_HC (Now they are not allowed to have an Indian any more)
@@alicelund147 that's so stupid how is the logo so offensive lol. I'm sorry these younger generations are ruining everything. I feel like it's a symbol of cultural appreciation more than offensive
The way the Romans viewed the Germanic tribes reminds me of the way the Spanish conquistadors viewed the peoples of the territories they invaded. In my land there were aborigines who had no access to metal and lived like in the Palaeolithic. But they had a culture, a worldview, gods, a special writing system and more... they were no less than their conquerors.
Someone recently made a point to me that was really impactful and it's coloring how I view this video, so I thought I'd share. They pointed out that the Roman Catholic Church isn't actually about Christianity, it's about the Roman Empire. The Romans killed most of the leaders of the early church. They then took "christianity", nationalized it, and utilized it as a weapon to conquer the rest of Europe and much of the known world. They use the same techniques but instead of an army of soldiers they use an army of bishops. They seek to "romanize" or "christianize" by destroying local cultures, appropriating some of the traditions to ease resistance, and kill anyone who refuses to assimilate by way of things like residential schools. The Roman Empire still exists and the United States is central to that.
Emperor Constantine did tell the Bishops to standardize their theology to unite his empire. But, the Roman Catholic Church long outlived the Roman Empire. Plus, I really don't see the argument that Christianity helped Rome expand. From the perspective of a conquered people, what is the difference between being invaded by followers of Jupiter and being invaded by followers of Jehovah? In both cases, the outcome is decided on the battle field, not in theological debates.
@@Sewblon Christianization helped expansion in the form of Christian institution. The resources and establishments that came along with nationalized Christianity largely created hegemony and stability in conquered/converted territories.
@@Sewblon basically the entire christianization of the British/Celtic Isles. The modern UK and Ireland were largely made up of tons of tribal chieftains and petty kings at constant war for territory, influence, and wealth. “Laws” were largely nonexistent, and those that existed were really just social rules that didn’t really extend outside the immediate family/clan/tribe. As Christianity made its way through those territories, and those chieftains and kings became Christian, it became far less acceptable for a Christian king to war against a fellow Christian king, or for Christians in general to attack/steal from/otherwise injure or offend fellow Christians. You begin to see more cooperation and eventually centralization of power, churches and the clergy that work them spread throughout the Isles and advised/mediated disputes between leaders, and even small “kingdoms” that once had to fight to gain and retain wealth and resources to care for their people now had the entirety of the wealth and resources behind the Church to aid them as needed (similar to the way a modern US state can appeal to the federal government for aid, or a nation can appeal to NATO/UN for help they can’t provide themselves for one reason or another). So, all in all, you go from dozens or more lesser lords/kings/etc constantly fighting over everything, to fewer and fewer leaders who all become Christian to some extent or another, and those territories become fewer and fewer until they’ve all coalesced into the modern unified nations of England, Scotland, Ireland, etc.
There are a few things about the Poetic Edda that you missed out that I think could be relevant for someone considering it's bias - 1) The Poetic Edda poems show evidence of being written or composed at different times - some are older than others (and perhaps more reliable?). Second, it is much harder for poetry to "evolve" than for prose (in poems the words are in a set format, must obey alliteration rules e.t.c.), so there is less ability for the Poetic Edda poems to change over time than there would be in a prose writing. These two facts strengthen the Poetic Edda as a source even if there is still some bias.
"Gallic" is correct in this context, as meaning "of/in-relation-to Gaul" where "Gaelic" is "of/in-relation-to the Gaels" (the people of Ireland and, depending on the time period, some or all of Scotland).
There is one thing about Tacitus which you didn't bring up, which is actually that Tacitus, not having any first hand knowledge of the region, is also likely to have invented some of the names and toponyms. This was discussed in some recent monographs.
I would just like to thank you for creating this channel and being a voice for reason. Your videos have been of great help to me in understanding my beliefs. I've been a Pagan since college but never really explored much, you could say i was half in the broom closet.
As far as the pronunciation of Gallic, I would say "Gal•Lick" because In order to pronounce it "Gay•Lick" it would need to be spelled "Gælic, or "Gaelic." I also want to say, that writing out "Gay•Lick" is quite humorous, and you should only lick gays if it is wanted by them. Consent matters.
problem with norse mythology is that it was passed down orally and not written like in the bible and we all know that when things are passed down with words the story tends to drag off.
I just finished the prose edda two days ago and have been wondering what other biases I should be aware of going forward in reading. Since bias exists in everything it's important to be aware of the author and time period. It's a bit different than the biases to watch out for while reading research materials produced more recently. Having no background whatsoever in this time period at all this video is so so helpful. Great content as always Ocean
So, I have a question. Of course I’ve watched the tv show Vikings. I know it is often criticized for over dramatic changes in the beliefs. I’m just wandering about Harbard. Who was he in the stories? Was he Odin in another form? Is that an actual thing in this belief? I guess I’m asking if Harbard or the wonderer was something Odin did often?
He is from the Poetic Edda in The Lay of Hárbarðr. There's arguments as to whether or not it's another name for Loki or Odin. Odin seems to be the more likely candidate. Either way, the character seems to be a disguise to mask the true identity of the character. But his character and behavior are very different from the expression of him in the Vikings TV show. Though he does like to talk about his sexual exploits.
I've really been getting into Irish Paganism via native Irish Pagans. What I'm finding is that they have a lot the same biases in their myths. Their gods are more like heroes than spiritual beings, or hell, maybe that's how early Irish Celts viewed their gods. Irish Pagans have kinda had to piecemeal their spiritual mechanisms the way Germanic Pagans have had to do. Saxo... the way writes makes me think of Tolkien.
Too true. It gets worse when you want to worship the Celtic pantheon of Austria because there’s no mention of the deities worshiped by the tribes. Also Tolkien was inspired by the Eddas partially for his writings.
Archaeology in Scandinavia the past 30 years has unearthed evidence of a far stronger connection with the Romans and also the steppes than previously thought. The likelyhood of ancient poems containing memories of the goths, gepids, heruls and so on and their exploits on the continent between 250 CE and 500 CE has increased exponentially. But have the text scholars taken this to heart yet? I believe not. I'm not implying these texts are turned into accurate historical records all of a sudden, by no means - they are more like half-confused memories and strongly mythologized - but the matter needs to be researched thoroughly, and many previous conclusions might be in need of a review. Just sayin'..
Some interesting pieces, in this segment! One's that I have shared n talked over, with several " Christians and [church leaders]" ... they are still scratching their heads... Lol!!!! It is good to catch " stories " ,n watch some spin tales from their ecumenical perspective...n yet..lol..still have no clear idea of what the varied connections actually were??!! Thanks for sharing 👍!
You say saxo's estate is suing marvel studios for copyright violations with such a straight face its almost believable. That and Marvel is already being sued for copyright violations for other things like stealing the Iron man and Ant man suit designs from smaller comic books.
i do like that viewing point,but be on the lookout for nicknames. i hope you keep it. would you watch, a video to in-turn, make a abetter- one? an no NO i dont wobt easy exits. you better post a reaxtion to SuperEyePatchwolf, because he deserveses it.
I really identify with the very last part of this video. Growing up as a Christian, I'm desperately wanting something that I can look to as the full source of my spirituality, and it's frustrating that basically outside of the Abrahamic faiths, that just doesn't really exist. That said, how do you go about using the texts mentioned in this video to reconstruct?
This topic isn't new to me, as such.. Christianity and paganism have mingled since the beginning of Christianity. Consider the pagan triple goddess Brigid and the Christian St Bridget that she became once Celtics lands became Christian. And...there's still discussion of pagan tradition inside Christianity and whether it should bother us (like the Christmas tree), to this day. As a Christian, I've had to ask the questions about my own practice, it's origin and it's utility, so it makes sense other faiths would do so. But I always wondered how Pagans/Heathens determined their practices based on the fact that scant sources for the stories existed outside of those like those you mentioned. And the oral traditions that might be more trustworthy have disappeared. I found this video both educational and interesting. There is much value in an approach to a lot of things that is profoundly aware but not overly dismissive due to bias. Because, as you say, it's everywhere.
As a Christian who struggled with doubts I appreciate and admire this mans careful thought as well as his passion in his faith. Although we do not agree on everything, I greatly appreciate you being willing to share and elaborate on your faith. Best of luck to you and your walk.
Ocean Keltoi, great. And when you were speaking of Rome during the time of Tacitus, it made me think of the US. I know others have famously made the same comparison, but it is scary, how easily people are duped. Dammit. I still want you to read my thing on power, you do 'dramatic' so beautifully! One of these times , I'll be able to limit my comment and put it in. Also, thankyou for the guidance away from that other channel, I should have looked in his previous loads. 👍🥰💞✌🎃
Thank you so much for talking about the situation of the Sami in the past and nowadays! It's rarely ever mentioned and often carefully ignored by nordic countries, who want to build themselves an image of virtuous and innocent nations who didn't take part in colonization. As you pointed out their situation is still precarious today so special credit to you for raising awareness!
It's amusing to note that, via a combination of euhemerism and fantastic genealogy, Queen Elizabeth II is said to be descended from both Woden and the Prophet Muhammad.
Being new to Nordic Paganism, and Polytheism. I was wondering what your thoughts were on Neil Price. I've struggled throughout my life, when it comes to religion. I was baptized a Christian many years ago, but throughout my entire life, I've felt it to be nieve, to believe that there is only one God. I've also struggled to believe, that one God, is responsible for creating everything within our world. Which brings me to where I am today. I understand that Nordic Paganism, is considered to be, the religion of homework, so to speak. The lack of accurate information, tends to make things tough/annoying sometimes. But then I remember/realize, that it is up to us, to form our own thoughts, and opinions, of the topic at hand. Which is why I feel very comfortable, with the Norse Pagan religion. It seems more logical to me, and it reminds me, that this ancient religion of our ancestors, in my opinion, was more so meant to be, an individual/family practice, as compared to an organized religion, meant to bring people together, and told what to believe, and then asked for a monetary donation, so that I too can be saved, by the almighty God. Lol. Thank you for sharing your wisdom, on all the topics, for which you address. Like Odin himself, I am always seeking knowledge, and or truths, in a world of people, who seem to not like truths anymore.
This video has really enforces my feelings against any form of reconstructionism. You can use the sources of names, themes, and some traits of the entities of the Norse tradition but should not be used as any kind of base for a spiritual practice. UPC is far more important then these sources and IMO are much more genuine. We will never relive the pagan religion as it was in pagan times so the best thing we can do is do anything we can and use any tactics possible to commune and get results from the gods and entities of this particular spiritual path
I was under the impression that the Poetic Edda is considered more authentic because the language in some of the poems is an archaic form of old norse that dates back to the 900s before Christianization.
I still need to get my hands on the Eddas, so this was a good warning when I finally get them. One of the many things I had to learn when I got into any mythology or folklore is that its going to get a lil bit of bleach on it. Odin being your Local Old Man fits on his disguises of course, a wise old wizard man should do the trick. Local Old Man only though, he is not Florida Person (Loki)
Excellent content, as always. I really appreciate how you do deeper dives into pagan topics and take a scholarly perspective. So many heathen content creators stick to a very "surface level" approach and don't delve into topics outside of beginner "guides" and such. There's nothing wrong with beginner stuff and it's great that it exists, but I think it becomes too much of a safe zone to exist in and limits your audience. With all that said, I wouldn't mind seeing a new series from you sometime which has a bit broader of an approach to explaining the faith or something, as you do such a great job and more people need to watch your content. Also, your beard is magnificent. Do you ever use a straightener? I'm currently just wearing a moustache for the summer, but when my beard gets as long as yours the hair patterns do CRAZY things and I've considered a straightener to get it under control!
I suppose that it is a home thing when an author declares their bias up front, as Butler does in his translation of the Iliad. I may be biased against open faced sandwiches, but I love pizza.
So this served as exactly what I was looking for in regards to doing my "heathen homework". For those who struggle finding a way, thank you for making one.
One of the things I remember being taught in my high school history class was this; "Every source has a bias." I was often taught to compare sources to each other to find what was missing, and quite frankly, that skillset gets used a fair bit in my practice. It's quite easy to back certain things up cause of some archaeological findings (e.g. Loki's binding appearing on the Gosforth Cross) or by being mentioned in multiple sources (e.g. Baldr's death), but even then, I think critically about it. I'm plenty aware of the biases so any source can have, so when I read the sources it's for multiple reasons. Primarily, it's because of faith (duh) but the other is because of genuine interest. I've long loved folklore and fairytales, and being a Scot (while I'm hear; it depends how the word is spelt and which country you're referring to. Irish is 'GAH-lic', Scottish is 'GAY-lic'), and being a history nut naturally these sources are right up my alley. But I think one of the more crucial parts about recognising biases is recognising our own and the ones we've been conditioned to have. This is something I'm still working on and even struggling with as I was raised Mormon, and raised to believe that me being Autistic was inherently a sin and enough reason for 'God' to abandon me. Loki has full on called me out on this, basically going "I'm not going anywhere, but for goodness sake, acknowledge the fact you've got abandonment issues and work on them." It's an uphill battle, but one that I think is well worth it, even if one is just enjoying the sources as folklore and nothing more. I've nothing against that.
I have so much to say about this but I am a literal cave man as far as the net is concerned I will say as a heathen/pagan I love what you are doing keep spreading the knowledge Skol little Brother!
I know the story of Odin sacrificing himself unto himself from Manowar. Gods of War is a great album. But now that you have said it out loud, I can't think of that story without thinking "Your Christianity is showing." Good to know that its not just Manowar's fault for not being professional historians, but that even when the story was first recorded, it was all ready Christianized.
Hey Ocean, I am Pagan and have a question concerning Germanic God's. I was told that I can't worship Loki or Ran because I'm not white. Is that true? I've feel drawn to them and made them a part of my shrine. Please help, thank you so much. Oh for a bit more info I am Native American(Turtle Island) my tribe is Mayan.
@@OceanKeltoi Agreed. My ancestry is connected to the Middle East (my dad’s Jewish and his haplogroup is most common among people whose ancestors came from the Middle East) and Germany/part of Denmark (mom’s primarily German but we do have a small percentage of Denisovian DNA in the lineage). Yet I primarily worship the Celtic deities (especially Brighid who is an Irish Celtic deity) even though by that logic I should be worshipping the Phoenician deities and/or Germanic deities.
Regarding the hidden biases in the Poetic Edda, it's also possible that the connections to ideas associated with Christianity and other religions occurred naturally through cultural contact, especially considering that we're talking about the beliefs of a group of ancient explorers. In all likelihood there wouldn't have been a uniquely Norse faith separable from everywhere else to begin with, not only because the gods aren't restricted to a single people group or location, but because methods and views of religious practice are subject to human culture which refuses to obey borders. My thoughts on euhemerism are borrowed somewhat from Eastern religions, where there are beliefs in gods or other spiritual beings sometimes incarnating as humans. I don't see it as a contradiction at all for Odin to be both a human chieftain and a god.
Fenrir the wolf only wanted to kill Odin cause the Old One Eye, tricked and betrayed him and locked him away. Locking the young child away only creates hate for the adults around them. People who overly seek to control the lives of the children around them, will one day have to deal with those children as adults turning against them. Each battle and death in the telling of Ragnarok has many under lining means of ethical/ moral truths to them. Hidden wisdom.
@@MrLeadbutterfly Years ago just after the first Thor movie came out, I was at work talking with some of my friends and co-workers at the time. One woman, " What is .. Tom Hiddleston .. doing standing in the production line ?!" That dude that looks like Tom, " Why is everyone giving me strange looks ?" Older black woman, " Cause you see Tom, from how we are seeing you .. Loki .. you are in the conveyor belt. Otherwise you are standing within the center of the table." Where by .. Loki starts given little funny details regarding a little girl he once knew, and one young black woman in her early 20's says, " My childhood imaginary friend of Loki wasn't make believe !" Some guy, " You're imaginary childhood friend was Marvel's Loki ?" Young black woman, " No, .. my make believe was the Nose myth, I didn't like comics cause they had no depth." Loki, " But I like marvel's Loki, well at lest the good stories of him where the story arc covers multiple issues." Other times he starts up talking to someone, and another persons see some guy just talking to someone that is not there. Yeah, .. uh .. hmm .. Tom, yeah that's his name, well Tom is just subtle as all that you can get at pranking people. Odin not so much. a.) You have so called traditional heathens, folk/ volkism, of those that follow Norse Aesir myths. b.) Then the Chaos magik mages that will go with the comic book Asgardians, cause why not. c.) Then you have the set of elemental forces who reincarnated as Buddha that travel to different worlds and realities when a given group of people reach a stage of social development. Start influencing their dreams and moral/ ethical behavior just to see how the native species reacts and grows over time. Another way of looking at the story of " Thor & Company Camping in the Giant's Glove," it is Yoda's darkside cave. Despite what those fluffy bunny pagans have to say, the stone/ bronze age primal raiding war like Angrboda wolf mother " only the strong survive to breed," .. well .. she did motivate Germany's WW II imperialism mass murder. Watch enough wolf pack videos where a given pack gets big enough they will start mass killing all other packs for hunting rights. During winter the wolves will mass kill herds of game or live stock and burry the kills in snow for easier feeding. For god's sake watch how brutal African wild dogs can get when their packs reach numbers into their 40's or 60's. They well start going after lions at that point. Wolf spirits are like a twisted version of normal living wolves. The spirits may act as imaginary pets, friends, and protectors of small children, but to teenagers, you must earn your place within the pack. As adults only the strong and able are they friendly to. The Black Dog on highways, and the Shadow Hound of forests. They prey on human fear. Watch a few videos of the German Werewolf Cult Soldiers. Astral beings are Force to obey given laws that humans have to figure out so we can work with them or cast spells to control them. But over all, they just want your emotions or a given .. type .. of emotion to feed on to effect human reality in subtle ways. Christians talk about having a " personal relationship " with Jesus, and Jesus talks to them. Yeah, ok .. why does Jesus never tell his worshipers that a close friend or school/ church member/ official is " cough," abusing their small children ? Seen a YT video covering a story that came out a few years before the Thor movie, where a young male teenager was sent to the dean office, instead of calling the boy's parents. They had a cop go to pull off the boy's 2ndA t-shirt with Old Glory printed on it. The 14 yo started to chant " Odin " and it turn into a five way fist fight with the youth, end result the father was livid and went to sue the school and department. Chanting the old gods leads to battle rages, sometimes without the kill impulse, as for Jesus .. You have cowards that won't do nothing to make the world a better place, cause way too many think the sooner The Mark of the Beast happens, the sooner their Savior will show up to take them to Heaven and recreate the world. Over all when I could really do with some help from Jesus, he was not there for me when I fell into Darkness, .. Others where there waiting for me. I had .. problems .. when I was 16 years old, I went to all of my city's Christian churches and all they did was said, " Pray to Jesus." I went to the only Jewish temple in town, and they walked me through my problems for close to a year, and they knew I was going pagan. They just regard it as their duty to help me balance my path to the Source. I also met Survivors of Germany WW II camps, they told me to roll with what I can, endure what I can't roll with, and hit back any way if I was able. As we all are, we are in G*D's hands. 2.) My Jewish guide as a teenager, .." The less Key of Solomon cover 72 angels & demons, at first it was a single being with a positive & negative trait, then the early bronze age scholars .. he laughs .. list 144 human personality traits. 144 divide by 12 months gives you 12 personality traits for each month, you don't have to take my word but I can tell you my wife has more than 12 personalities each month. The Christian world view really doesn't make sense, but if you look at the world as Natural Selection through evolution by reincarnation to reach Buddha hood. Of barely evolved apes with astral souls struggling through survival of the biological and ethical fittest it starts to makes sense. East African rock monkeys do to their social compassion will take care of a stray baby jackal and the Jackal grows to an adult taking care of the monkeys from other jackals, and humans think we train sheep dogs. It is our ethic of compassion that allows us to survive as a group and biological we are just lucky to survive having the flu. ( He takes off and cleans his eye glasses, ) Along with having bad eye sight and not being able to run very fast, we learn not to take any unneeded chances cause we have people to look after. My reply, " You just cross the line of being a heretic on my religious sects and the social boundaries regarding .. ethic biological supremacy. " Jewish guide, " Buddha, we learn what we need to when we are ready. Hence reincarnation, the human soul is the lotus bulb and the flowering to the surface of the water reaching for the Sun is each new life." Me, " Yeah, I got that when I was 15, don't judge a tree to bear fruit out of its season. My English teacher was happy I was starting to learn something." 3.) The difference in mythology,.. a.) Egyptian it is stories about the gods, so is the same with Northern Europe. b.) Greeks it is about half gods and heroes. c,) Jews, .. it is about sometimes normal people just dealing with life, their place in the world and the sometimes failed relationship with G*D. Which the Imperial council of Nicea highjacked and bastardized. Jewish tradition can leave you lost and screwed over when mix with politics. Christian traditions breaks down in sects that just brain wash people with fear. The Torah/ Old Testament when read with 12 different views makes you start questioning reality but it is a book for living on life. As many rabbi have stated, Christianity New Testament is about an After Life, the Torah is about how to live a good life on Earth, cause death is merely death, and their is not life without death. Aesir Nine Realms shown as three inter locking triangles represent nine aspects of consciousness by each triangle point, and tracing the inter locking lines to the point is traveling into the subconscious. " This is where you get the Inner Space becoming the Outer Space." I burnt myself out as a teenager chasing .. power/ knowledge/ understanding .. When I was 25 years old just hanging around by one foot from a tree branch which creep some city folk out, they ask my grandma what I was doing, upside down with my arms spread like an inverted cross. Granny, " He is just talking to Odin, looking into the Well of Worlds." Blue jean jackets at times used to be the same shade of blue when human blood pools and bruises the skin, which was the color of Odin's cloak, and the left side of Hel's face. Other than thick cotton jacket keep you warm when ridding a motorcycle, why did biker clubs/ gangs like jean jackets so much over leather with a bunch of Norse themes ? Also with high way speeds and wiping out when drinking and driving/ ridding could cripple you for life and leave you dead on the spot.
Imagining all these old Christian dudes turning in their grave over how many people they've helped convert to Heathenry 🤣
oops
@@OceanKeltoi Woops indeed. But hey it’s great to be open to polytheistic religions. I wonder what that early Christians would’ve thought about Shinto and the multiple kami worshiped? They probably would’ve had the same reaction of ‘people straying from the path’.
@@OceanKeltoi Many would be surprised that the book of Galatians in the judeo-christian Bible gives us a glimpse of Norse paganism through The Eyes of Paul of Tarsus.
It is the first instance of Christians equating Odin with Christ and even the Cross of Christ with Yggdrasil. The comparison makes sense when one perceives Christianity through the lens of animism, which is self-evident to be the original Christian philosophy, as Paul of Tarsus stated in Acts 17 "in God we live move and have our being." This of course is confirmed by many things that Jesus said such as "whatever you do to the least of these that you do to me." And the three laws Jesus gave to replace Mosaic law, "do unto others as you would have them do unto you; love God with your whole heart whole mind and whole soul; love thy neighbor as thyself."
At one point Paul expresses his relationship with the Galatians by comparing the Galatians to Odin and himself to Mimir by stating "...if it were possible you would have given your right eyes to me." With this it is eye-opening that Paul had already compared Odin to Christ, condemning a practice that some have theorized was done by the practitioners of the Seidr; the ordeal in which seers would hang themselves upside down from a tree; Paul of Tarsus seems to confirm this practice when he States "...do you not know anyone who hangs from a tree is condemned?" Meditating on this it seems that Paul was upset by the objectification, "idolatry" of focusing on material things by performing an imitation of Jesus crucifixion in lieu of performing an imitation of Odin on yggdrasil.
I think Bruce Lee can sum up Paul's philosophy when he said "Do not look at the finger or you will miss all that Heavenly Glory." What else could a Christian be teaching other than Animism which would cause people who are effectively practicing Asatru to be amazed? Taking what Paul said on Mars Hill, in Acts 17, into consideration, it is evident that what we call Christianity Today is not Christianity at all.
Contrary to the Christian perspective, as well as its methods, with follows Peter's philosophy of conversion as opposed to Paul's philosophy of philosophical dialogue ( it is evident that Peter and Paul were not fond of each other). Nonetheless, Christians would be appalled to realize that the true gospel is actually quite pagan; I could write a book on this subject. I think Paul of Tarsus and Jesus of Nazareth are the two most misquoted and taken out of context philosophers in history. Christianity looks for the kingdom of God in the afterlife, when the true message is that the kingdom of God is already here and all we need to do is follow God's law which is written in the fabric of nature: it is ironic that Christianity is guilty I've so much oppression and genocide when its original form gave rise to the concept of unalienable natural rights, which is known as Natural Law, Declarationism and Classical Liberalism: it truly is a miracle that Thomas Aquinas was not burnt at the stake for heresy for many of the things he said in Summa Theologica: Paul wrote extensively about freedom and the right of free agency, and that Christ is the element within nature that gives us these rights. Christ equals God's word equals God's law equals natural law as opposed to the laws of men. Very Pagan indeed.
In closing, contrary to the Christians interpretation of the Doom and Gloom of Revelations, it is quite evident that the Book of Revelations predict the impact that the Roman Empire would have on the entire world; the Christians today think that the tribulation is near or just starting, when in truth it began with the birth of Augustus Caesar; we know this because the star of Caesar is referred to as wormwood. In essence the book of the Apocalypse isn't about the destruction of the world but about the fall of the spirit of the Roman Empire through the Awakening of the people among the nations of the Earth, in line with every one of those ancient Prophecies of the Awakening, which has been whispered through the genetic memory of every human being who honors their ancestors. Be at peace for the Christians as we know them today will have a rude awakening when they realize they stand as goats, not lambs, before the Divine natural law, which they call the bema seat. In short, the whole of Christianity is apostate.
When you want to find out the truth about a religion, don't talk to the idiot members of the fan club, talk to the god from which it came.🤗
Caesar has been the enemy and is still the enemy of us all, every tribe and every people.
Hail the Gods
All My Relations
With love and honor from a mestizo Apache-Viking and Native America
✌🦅🌲🇺🇸
@@mirandagoldstine8548 early Christians believed in animism, quite Pagan in their philosophy as opposed to the fake Christianity we have today. Please read my response on this thread. There is a whole lot more juicy stuff that I have learned through research and the seidr.
I dont read it like that, think of it this way, christian scholar writing on a collection of stories from someone else's ethnicity/culture. Although he is enamoured enough with the norse culture to write about it, how enamoured can he sound if he intends to keep his career. Maybe he endorses an already popularised belief that the pagans are practitioners of black magic that pray to wizards and sorcerer's, cementing him as a forward thinking christian, and thoroughly "one of us".
I had to chuckle at Noah in a Norse setting.... I just imagine him trying to explain to a bunch of old salts that only this one boat could survive the biblical flood.
I think the bigger issue would be those old salts trying convince Noah that maybe that god that is threatening to kill every person in the world is maybe not super worth worshiping.
I mean, I know Thor could be a little bit... difficult... to deal with, and would not be surprised if old Norse people did associate bad weather with Thor and Freyr being angry with them but... man, Genesis is really intense
@@emiliobustamante2401 Women get angry and throw things at their husbands.
Some thunder storms with a lot of noise and barely any rain or lightning was Thor just yelling back at his wife. All bark & no bite.
old salts: "I dunno Noah, we make pretty good boats here in the North"
Won't survive without Njörðr's blessing
I can't state how important this group (Ocean, Wolf, Beo, etc) has become to me. Online heathenry is, let's just say, a bit woo-ey, and y'all are pillars of decency and integrity.
No doubt, if it's not a bunch of complete retards there're NAZIS. Jackson Crawfords channel is a dandy as well, not really a Hethean channel but he's a college professor who specializes in Norse/heathen history. He puts out some really good information.
@@shelltowee8629 Using that R-word as an insult is really not cool. It's actively harmful to people who you likely don't intend to hurt when you use it. Please think about that.
@@lysanamcmillan7972 so I have to self-sensor cause your sensitive, what happened to sticks and stones break your bones but words can never hurt you, how about ya quit being so God damn sensitive and focus that attention on a real issue.
We literally believe that there are deities who have been in existence since the beginning of existence itself who regularly interact with human beings and do really unbelievable things like own belts that increase strength and ride around on carts guided by massive cats. The entire concept is “woo-ey”. Unless you’re a boring materialist atheopagan (basically a hippie) then you, just like everyone else who believes in the northern tradition are cooks crazies and lunatics. Be proud of the insanity that inhabits your mind and enriches your life
@@lysanamcmillan7972 does your entire life exist surrounded by padded walls?
Definitely nice to cover the various ways that bias can effect what we have, good job as always
I feel like some of this perspective is from someone who's studied myths on Merlin. What we know of Merlin is very similar to Odin but with an emphasis "knowledge is dangerous."
very good video tonight, it makes some good points and gives you food for thought, i will never look at sources in quite the same way again and this is justifiable
Thank you man. I descend from Germanic families who migrated to Texas. I have had many of dreams and visions of the Norse Gods. For a while I was trying to follow the path but was put off by the stories of some of their death. It is not what I imagined God to be, a thing that could die. To me, God is immortal. So I had and still am very into Hinduism, Shiva, Vishnu, Kali and such. But one thing is for sure, I do not recall ever having visitations of this pantheon as I do with the Norse. I mean it's immediate. Even before I clicked on this video. I saw it.. the spirit realm coming through.. of a small youtube add saying, "Ahh I'm on my way home." And the one who said it looked right into the camera and the moment became so alive. A few months ago, I had called upon the Norse deities again, this time Thor, and that night I had a dream of a lightning ball in front of me hovering, then I was in a wooden house and someone knocked, I opened the door and it was a Norse man with long red hair, of strength, warlike but of good cheer too. I woke up and knew instantly, that was it was Thor. There are too many stories to tell, of the visitations of Odin and Freya. Revealing things to me that I had never known, but are popular characteristics of them. Also a dream revealing to me one of my pronounced Germanic bloodline ties, the Goths. Later I took a DNA test and according to their results the DNA I have of ancient populations is #1 Visigoths. But yea, it was a needed thing to hear.. about how the stories presented are all made up by Christians.. Odin dying just never sat right with me. Thanks for reminding me to focus on my understanding of the world and not that of others (their writings) like it is the 'infallible word of God'.
It sounds like Geoffrey's "History of the Kings of Britain" story....or at least the beginning of it with Brutus leaving Troy and landing in Greece, and then traveling on to the north to live.
Personal opinion: I feel that the sacrifice of Odin of Himself to Himself is actually mirrored in a verse from the Hovamol: by your getting measure thy gift. So by the cycle of reciprocity you have a god being offered a god and as a result being given by some other power the runes as a means of ultimate wisdom.
Great stuff, Ocean! Really informative and insightful as usual.
Is there any chance you may be making a video on Tyr any time soon? I feel like there isn't a lot of information on him out there in video format.
(Also, I got to feed the algorithm)
I'm pretty sure it should be the gallic war. After all, it's concerned with the gauls, the celtic tribes living in what is now modern day france. The gaelic war would refer to the gaels, the celtic tribes living in scotland, ireland and the isle of man.
Germanic =/= Celtic btw but during the kind of caesar, both were around and both are distantly related to scandinavians.
Hallå Oceanen!
I believe in you and your concept! I think your channel will get big, so get ready to be famous my friend!
/a swede! (Not the vegetable)
@Ocean Keltoi the picture for this video is misleading. It reads “Was Odin just some old Wizard.” But, when you click on it to activate the link it takes one to this video about bias. Please be advised.
its my personal theory that loki leading/causing ragnarok is Christians trying to equate him to their devil. in all the other stories he doesn't act like this being of evil that wants to destroy the world and kill the gods. it just doesn't make sense and isn't consistent with his personality enough for me to subscribe to at least that part of the ragnarok story.
The whole Baldur story, from the actions of Loki and the promise of rebirth seems very suspect to me. Something definitely got lost in translation
I've been wondering about Ragnarok. Was it there as s story before Christianization?
If there's one thing I know about history (and the news media), it's that EVERY source is biased in some way. Including the bible. We just have to do the best with what we have and sort of average out the available sources to arrive at an educated guess of the truth
23:22 I am most certainly not an ex-Christian.
However, I'd add that Nerthus worship in Tacitus:
* concerns an idol of the cosmic, totally non-eumeric kind (a demon)
* and that her name is identic to that of Odin's rival (both Saxo and Snorre's Heimskringla consider Skade = Frigga).
I think it is very possible an indigenous heathen priest or priest king, named Nerthus for the goddess he worshipped, became divinised in the new cult he helped to start.
And which hadn't come through as far down as in Denmark yet, which is where Tacitus discusses her.
Sword hand for tyr
Blood for thor
Heart for Freya
Life for odin
Hail to the Æsir
Hail to the vånir
Hail to our ancestors
Wise words and healing hands while we live
Marcomir King of the Sicambri. Marcomir brought his people out of Scythia and conquered Gaul where they settled. He died in 412 B.C. first King of the Sicambri, who took possession of what is now Holland in the year of the world 3573. , The Sicambri are a good place to look for clues of the Germanic, then look for
Fornjót
, the first King of Kvenland . The birth of the Vikings .
Absolutely spot on with respect to the Sami people, tragically. Good work on this one.
Not sure if anyone’s mentioned this before, but it may be important to note that Germania by Tacitus isn’t a primary source. Tacitus, himself, never went to Germania and the text itself is better understood as a lit review of Ancient Roman texts pertaining to the tribes of Germania from what I understand.
No, I think Odin" I prefer to call him the hooded one" is a very real God.
I guess Marvel Studios should be in the lookout for Saxo Grammaticus's suing attempts🤣🤣.
It's even possible that Loki is a character. That was created as a way. Of makeing the myths seem more cohesive.
So the runes were not a thing with odin
10:18 W a i t ... did Saxo consider Odin longlived enough to make later appearances in person? Same guy who went to Uppsala?
My own euhemerism on this is, the wizard who plunged a sword later known as Gram in the oak in Völse's hall, either was later mistaken for Odin, or simply played the part (a bit like Phantom of Bengali pretends to have been alive for centuries).
Specifically, did Saxo consider the Odin who betrayed Bjarki as identic to the one who had come to Uppsala?
I think he specifically says, Odin was burned after death and Med-Odin ("the co-Odin") went down as a vampire killed in Finland, so putting Odin in Bjarki's time as identic to either would be anachronistic, strong sense, like Perseus meeting an Atlas mad bc Hercules had fooled him.
Odin=iron man based on Indo-European dialect. Yes Odin is the iron man of old. The original man of steel. the list goes on. Thor and Thrace is interested considering saffron was grown there in ancient times. Sif golden hair is another intriguing link. Just keep eye on the the small details.
“Was Odin just some old wizard?”
Is anyone?
After the video : euhemerism.
As you mention, it served to discredit the heathen as theologians, they mistook men for god.
It also served to credit them as historians. _"Yeah, sure, Romulus was no god, but_ *his followers* _took him for one, because they loved him"_ ... freely after St. Augustine. In other words, Romulus existed.
Your avoidance of euhemerism balks you from seeing that beings we take for men, but heathens took for gods are at the dawn of the Yngling dynasty. I may be partial, as a Swede.
Speaking of which, Snorre, as a post-Republican Icelander, that is as a Norwegian subject, was also partial to the Ynglings, and that is why he, unlike Saxo, credited them with Trojan ancestry - you know the ancestry that makes Aeneas stand out as ancestor of Caesar or Brutus as ancestor of British kings ("when the siege and the assault had ceased at Troy" if you recall the prologue to Sir Gawain and the Green Knight in Tolkien's translation).
Saxo was less partial to Ynglings, so he didn't. While being equally euhemerist and putting Odin's appearance right in Sweden, not Denmark. Despite Skjoldungs being credited with Odinid ancestry.
A N D the one Christian historian who did discredit the historic existance of Odin also put him round the timespan where Snorre does _"but that tale is ridiculous, for one it is the true God who gives victory and not these false gods, and for another, Godan is a Greek magician called Mercury, who lived 1000 years earlier."_ (Freely after Historia or Gesta Langobardorum, by Paul the Deacon).
You describe Odin in Havamal, "hanged and sacrificed to himself" (you know the poem more by heart than I do) as a reference to Christ, but have you considered, there are Shamans who do rites after which they consider themselves as incarnating the relevant gods or spirits ... hanging nine nights from a tree (I don't think he said "dead") and surviving after it, sounds like the nose wasn't tight around the neck and probably some sort of Shamanistic initiation.
Loved the video, Some Great Points made!
I think the Suttung Odin story sounds a bit old testament.
@oceankeltoi have you heard of a book by Vegard Solheim, called Our Traditions?
Snorri isn’t contradicting himself though. Doesn’t he say on the text how important it is to record the stories accurately even if they are prechristian? His idea of the Aesir coming from Turkey is his idea of what really happened, from his position as a Christian, but then he goes ahead to preserve accurately for posterity these traditional stories that would otherwise have been lost forever.
I love ur channel and live Odin ❤
6 years till the romans returned to the forest
I have been writing some short fiction and have considered bringing in some European Gods. I would likely have Odin be an old immortal wizard compared to some other creatures in the story. But he would be in a much more honorable position in my tales if I do. The God in my tales being the Christian one is the villain of the story already. It is somewhat a mashup of Lovecraft mythos and Gnostic Christianity. But playing fast and loose with everything and just building on coincidences so I can write my own myths. I plan to make it clear time and time again that what I am doing is fiction and just an attempt to flip some perspectives.
Thank you for all this information though, it is going be a lot to juggle around in my head before my tales use any of it.
It's amusing to consider the notion that the Christians made up some of the stories or added their own spin on them and then heathens took the innovations and said, that's nifty. Let's keep them.
A living tradition is going to change over time, and some of that change will be in response to interactions with other traditions. One of Christianity's flaws is its insistence on orthodoxy--often when it's clear that even Christiantiy has shifted as the years have passed.
The euphemism of Odin as wizard make me laught but we clearly see Tolkinen create Gandalf as an character for The Lord Of The Ring.
Ragnarök is more epic than the apocalypse of the new testament
Gaelic (Gay-Lick) refers to people and languages that came out of Ireland.
Gallic (Gal-Lick) refers to Gaul, the term the Romans used for roughly Roman France.
Through after writing that out, I’m sure you know that, and you were just rolling with a mispronunciation. Lol
I understand people's desires to have a direct heathen source. But I also think, even through the bias, what we have is phenomenal. There's something more accessible and useable when you have to do a little reading and make up your own damn mind.
I mean, how many stories and poems can you recite? Skalds may have remembered many, but most likely the average person remembered the few that resonated most with them, and therein found their faith. That's comforting, in a way.
Precisely! I am really big into the personal spiritual journey. It is something that nobody else can redefine, it is yours.
I wonder how many over the centuries were just made up on the spot and forgotten.
Odin as a crazy old wizard actually fits with him when he is in disguise
Exactly why I used the... uh... kenning.
@@OceanKeltoi it did make me chuckle
And when he’s not, honestly
Odin reads like a crazy celtic druid honestly.
While Loki reads like a crazy sailor.
And Hønir could be a crazy hunter-gather shaman local to scandinavia, but very vague due to the low population numbers prior to boats and celto-germanic expansion.
@@fredriks5090 what exactly is crazy sailor? Like that sailor captain from the Simpson's?
For what it's worth I am that one Christian that constantly pisses off other Christians by pointing out that the bible's basically been mutilated to suit the needs of whoever had the power to do so so many times that it should be regarded with an entire bucket of salt. One of the things I highly respect about my pagan friends is their willingness to admit that their source material's full of biases. If more Christians were willing to admit that to themselves, we'd probably all be better off for it
Preach! And I mean that legitimately! The thing about how to have a relation with gods, is being able to have to show that despite their power, you are willing to act more as an equal in the relationship. Rather than being a submissive yes man/woman.
I am the same way!
ya, this is a thing!
Thank you. I was raised in a very open-minded household and I was raised to understand that you need evidence to back up a claim so I don’t like it when people (fundamentalists) claim that everything that happened in the Bible is true and that we need to follow it because the evidence we have mostly says otherwise. I’ll admit that unfortunately the source material for neo-druids are rife with a Roman bias. I mean we don’t have any surviving documents written by Celts and the surviving material we do have on the druids depicts them as being below the Romans which is a shame. Also there are Celtic pantheons missing from written records such as the pantheon of the Celts of what’s now Austria. I have checked and so far I have found no mention of the deities the Celts of Austria honored and worshiped.
The "Mutiliation" of the Bible didn't really start happening until the past century, you know, when people with the mindset such as yourself that the Bible had been 'changed' somehow.
They claim to be going back to the oldest source texts but, they interpret the texts so differently.
I'm very happy that when your mention the Sámi, you actually take the time to explain the oppression dealt to my ancestors by christian monarchies and for five centuries of horrors still haunts Sámi people.
I'm a direct descendant of the last noaiddi of Jokkmokk/Jåhkåmåhkke(Julevsámigiella), for which both stories within my family(on my fathers side) and the horrors mentioned above have had an enormous impact on me, my upbringing(born and raised outside of Sápmi) and especially now as an adult. For I am today an animist-agnostic, but I'm questioning that position.
The remains of the Old Sámi religion is even less preserved than that of the Old Norse/Germanic pre-chistian religion and the research about the noaiddi isn't significant enough(nothing less then due to the colonialist systems that still lingers on).
That's why I asked the question about how much similarities there are between seiðr and the sacred landmarks/objects used by the noaiddi for worship.
I'm very interested to get to know how much does the different crafts/traditions shared from each other, that is prevelant in the sources about the late roman to early medieval Scandinavia?
I will discuss with both heathens in my own town and my northward relatives(may not be fully without of family biases) for opinions about the question.
P.S. I loved the video about Bragi, because I'm very fond of feasting, art, passion and poetry deities of all kinds. Artistic and social fullfilment is very important to me and inspiration is for me an almost "divine force" in a way.
"the historical documents serve not as the whole truth but as a window into the past that includes truths as told through the lenses of the dominant culture at the time," call that Critical Norse Theory
Coming from a background of many years of Pentecostal Christianianity. I definitely brought some of these biases to my faith in the Norse Deities. Possibly the most problematic was my internalised thoughts that if you don’t do everything correctly that you move further away from the Gods and that only their forgiveness could bring me back into relationship. I have found Ocean’s work has liberated me by showing the biases in the sources and my latent Christianisation. I now approach the gods differently and am so grateful. Thank you Ocean for your scholarship and explanations.
@@MrLeadbutterfly People tend to forget that the ability to bicker & insult were regarded as social verbal .. artforms .. at one time. And Loki had a nack of calling out people's flaws and insulting their virtues as if they were their personal vices.
The Norse gods couldn't even save their people from being beaten by the God of the Bible in war.
You want to serve these gods who could not defeat one lone God?
@@MrLeadbutterfly you do not need to forgive someone who has wronged you. If someone murders your son, why should you forgive them?
@@DRYeisleysCreations ragnarok was predicted and in a way, the Christian invasion of Northern Europe is Ragnarok. Odin died in the peoples hearts and minds for hundreds of years.
The Heathens wouldnt have lost if the Christians werent so deceitful. Heathens were welcoming of Christ, and many accepted Christ on the Heathen Pantheon before the forced conversion. Let's also not forget the "convert or die" mindset of Christians of the age, basically making Christianity at the time equal to ISIS
@@GunnerBob92 Hel, a lot of christians still have the "convert or die" mindset.
Not quite the same, but my Catholic, lesbian mother (yes I see the irony, no she doesn't) has told me "maybe I would have been a better mother if you believed in God."
In many ways, Christians have not changed.
tacitus should be happy those barbarians were so lazy, or he might not be a roman historian
Hi, danish person here :)
Saxo's bias was always explained to me as being a mixture of him being a bishop and his wishes to please his benefactor, the king (i believe it was one of the Valdemars), who was very christian and went on crusades to spread christianity and defeat the heathens to the east
Im a converted muslim from the Netherlands (frisia) but i love stories about Vikings and their habits & beliefs. I love how you explain things ♥️
The instant you said "historical documents" my brain immediately went to Galaxy Quest.
By historical documents, I mean these tv shows I watched.
I see you are a person of culture.
"Those poor people stuck on that island...."
Can I just keep ONE darling?? Like, one tiny Havamal??
I really do want to find all the original Pagan sources but I don't find any problem with the books that you mentioned above I have them all and I enjoyed them
If you want sources written by pagans, I heavily suggest checking out philosophy written by the Greeks and Romans. The Gods are often discussed. Some examples would be Theogony by Hesiod and On the Nature of the Gods by Cicero.
Thank you I will Research into those. I personally am not a Christian hater coming from a very Jewish background so I can enjoy many of those Christian Author books. My favorite being history of the Danes. One day I hope to get to sit and talk with you or one of your other real Heathen friends and have a really cool discussion Faith the Heathen way because your videos and Your Friends videos have helped me on my path so much
@@OceanKeltoi I am brand new to the channel. Always been interested in Heathenry and Norse Paganism so of course I love the content. Just curious if you have any suggestions for some podcasts to listen to that are geared towards Heathenry. Whether it be history, modern practice, etc. thank you for all your work man 🤘🏼
I read "are the Eddas based" lol. The poetic Edda definitely is.
based af
Based and Heathenpilled
@@OceanKeltoi can I ask a question? If I have Scandinavian and Welsh with more Hispanic and native American blood can I still follow norse paganism? Can anyone try to follow the religion
@@betterdays2006 Anyone can. Pre-Christian European religions (And even the old Sumerian religion) are often related and Asatru has Animism and Shamanism aspects as well; like many original beliefs all around the world. I think Native Americans would have related to a lot in Asatru. But the advantage to live in Scandinavia is that we have all the ancient holy places of worship, we have the old graves of our heathen ancestors back to the Stone Age, we have the rock carvings from the Bronze Age with the earliest pictures of our Gods. We have all the rune stones and we have the place-names themselves that still use our old Gods names for places. Like if you live in the suburb Västra Frölunda in the city Gothenburg you live where there was a Lund to Frö (Frölunda), a sacrificial holy grove to the God Freyr. And there is a ice hockey team with that name. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fr%C3%B6lunda_HC (Now they are not allowed to have an Indian any more)
@@alicelund147 that's so stupid how is the logo so offensive lol. I'm sorry these younger generations are ruining everything. I feel like it's a symbol of cultural appreciation more than offensive
The way the Romans viewed the Germanic tribes reminds me of the way the Spanish conquistadors viewed the peoples of the territories they invaded. In my land there were aborigines who had no access to metal and lived like in the Palaeolithic. But they had a culture, a worldview, gods, a special writing system and more... they were no less than their conquerors.
@Stirgid Lanathiel Exactly.
@Stirgid Lanathiel The natives killed people to appease their gods.
The conquistadors killed people to appease their lust of gold.
They were humans and lived as humans do. Good and bad.
Most of the Germanic tribes the Romans encountered were invading the Roman Empire, not the other way around. That seems like a key difference.
Someone recently made a point to me that was really impactful and it's coloring how I view this video, so I thought I'd share. They pointed out that the Roman Catholic Church isn't actually about Christianity, it's about the Roman Empire. The Romans killed most of the leaders of the early church. They then took "christianity", nationalized it, and utilized it as a weapon to conquer the rest of Europe and much of the known world. They use the same techniques but instead of an army of soldiers they use an army of bishops. They seek to "romanize" or "christianize" by destroying local cultures, appropriating some of the traditions to ease resistance, and kill anyone who refuses to assimilate by way of things like residential schools.
The Roman Empire still exists and the United States is central to that.
Emperor Constantine did tell the Bishops to standardize their theology to unite his empire. But, the Roman Catholic Church long outlived the Roman Empire. Plus, I really don't see the argument that Christianity helped Rome expand. From the perspective of a conquered people, what is the difference between being invaded by followers of Jupiter and being invaded by followers of Jehovah? In both cases, the outcome is decided on the battle field, not in theological debates.
@@Sewblon Christianization helped expansion in the form of Christian institution. The resources and establishments that came along with nationalized Christianity largely created hegemony and stability in conquered/converted territories.
@@jackjohnson2309 Could you give me an example of that?
@@Sewblon basically the entire christianization of the British/Celtic Isles. The modern UK and Ireland were largely made up of tons of tribal chieftains and petty kings at constant war for territory, influence, and wealth. “Laws” were largely nonexistent, and those that existed were really just social rules that didn’t really extend outside the immediate family/clan/tribe. As Christianity made its way through those territories, and those chieftains and kings became Christian, it became far less acceptable for a Christian king to war against a fellow Christian king, or for Christians in general to attack/steal from/otherwise injure or offend fellow Christians. You begin to see more cooperation and eventually centralization of power, churches and the clergy that work them spread throughout the Isles and advised/mediated disputes between leaders, and even small “kingdoms” that once had to fight to gain and retain wealth and resources to care for their people now had the entirety of the wealth and resources behind the Church to aid them as needed (similar to the way a modern US state can appeal to the federal government for aid, or a nation can appeal to NATO/UN for help they can’t provide themselves for one reason or another).
So, all in all, you go from dozens or more lesser lords/kings/etc constantly fighting over everything, to fewer and fewer leaders who all become Christian to some extent or another, and those territories become fewer and fewer until they’ve all coalesced into the modern unified nations of England, Scotland, Ireland, etc.
@@Sewblon I hope that made some sense. Trying to whittle down HOURS of lectures on the subject into VERY brief cliff notes.
There are a few things about the Poetic Edda that you missed out that I think could be relevant for someone considering it's bias - 1) The Poetic Edda poems show evidence of being written or composed at different times - some are older than others (and perhaps more reliable?). Second, it is much harder for poetry to "evolve" than for prose (in poems the words are in a set format, must obey alliteration rules e.t.c.), so there is less ability for the Poetic Edda poems to change over time than there would be in a prose writing. These two facts strengthen the Poetic Edda as a source even if there is still some bias.
"Gallic" is correct in this context, as meaning "of/in-relation-to Gaul" where "Gaelic" is "of/in-relation-to the Gaels" (the people of Ireland and, depending on the time period, some or all of Scotland).
There is one thing about Tacitus which you didn't bring up, which is actually that Tacitus, not having any first hand knowledge of the region, is also likely to have invented some of the names and toponyms.
This was discussed in some recent monographs.
I would just like to thank you for creating this channel and being a voice for reason. Your videos have been of great help to me in understanding my beliefs. I've been a Pagan since college but never really explored much, you could say i was half in the broom closet.
So I have an idea for a topic to talk about. Love and marriage in norse polytheism/ heathenisim
Yes please.
As far as the pronunciation of Gallic, I would say "Gal•Lick" because In order to pronounce it "Gay•Lick" it would need to be spelled "Gælic, or "Gaelic."
I also want to say, that writing out "Gay•Lick" is quite humorous, and you should only lick gays if it is wanted by them.
Consent matters.
problem with norse mythology is that it was passed down orally and not written like in the bible and we all know that when things are passed down with words the story tends to drag off.
I just finished the prose edda two days ago and have been wondering what other biases I should be aware of going forward in reading. Since bias exists in everything it's important to be aware of the author and time period. It's a bit different than the biases to watch out for while reading research materials produced more recently. Having no background whatsoever in this time period at all this video is so so helpful. Great content as always Ocean
So, I have a question. Of course I’ve watched the tv show Vikings. I know it is often criticized for over dramatic changes in the beliefs. I’m just wandering about Harbard. Who was he in the stories? Was he Odin in another form? Is that an actual thing in this belief? I guess I’m asking if Harbard or the wonderer was something Odin did often?
He is from the Poetic Edda in The Lay of Hárbarðr. There's arguments as to whether or not it's another name for Loki or Odin. Odin seems to be the more likely candidate. Either way, the character seems to be a disguise to mask the true identity of the character. But his character and behavior are very different from the expression of him in the Vikings TV show. Though he does like to talk about his sexual exploits.
I've really been getting into Irish Paganism via native Irish Pagans. What I'm finding is that they have a lot the same biases in their myths. Their gods are more like heroes than spiritual beings, or hell, maybe that's how early Irish Celts viewed their gods. Irish Pagans have kinda had to piecemeal their spiritual mechanisms the way Germanic Pagans have had to do.
Saxo... the way writes makes me think of Tolkien.
Too true. It gets worse when you want to worship the Celtic pantheon of Austria because there’s no mention of the deities worshiped by the tribes. Also Tolkien was inspired by the Eddas partially for his writings.
watching this for 10 minutes i can only think of the old man on the moutain asterix and obelix vs cesar... THAT WASH BETTER BE SOFT!
Archaeology in Scandinavia the past 30 years has unearthed evidence of a far stronger connection with the Romans and also the steppes than previously thought. The likelyhood of ancient poems containing memories of the goths, gepids, heruls and so on and their exploits on the continent between 250 CE and 500 CE has increased exponentially. But have the text scholars taken this to heart yet? I believe not. I'm not implying these texts are turned into accurate historical records all of a sudden, by no means - they are more like half-confused memories and strongly mythologized - but the matter needs to be researched thoroughly, and many previous conclusions might be in need of a review. Just sayin'..
Some interesting pieces, in this segment! One's that I have shared n talked over, with several " Christians and [church leaders]" ... they are still scratching their heads...
Lol!!!! It is good to catch
" stories " ,n watch some spin tales from their ecumenical perspective...n yet..lol..still have no clear idea of what the varied connections actually were??!!
Thanks for sharing 👍!
I’m surprised there aren’t that many videos on UA-cam about Euhemerism being used as anti-pagan polemics
Man, that’s some Marvel Comic’s Thor level of ... “artistic interpretation” at the beginning of the Poetic Edda. Does Snori have an ao3 account?
You say saxo's estate is suing marvel studios for copyright violations with such a straight face its almost believable. That and Marvel is already being sued for copyright violations for other things like stealing the Iron man and Ant man suit designs from smaller comic books.
i do like that viewing point,but be on the lookout for nicknames. i hope you keep it. would you watch, a video to in-turn, make a abetter- one? an no NO i dont wobt easy exits. you better post a reaxtion to SuperEyePatchwolf, because he deserveses it.
I really identify with the very last part of this video. Growing up as a Christian, I'm desperately wanting something that I can look to as the full source of my spirituality, and it's frustrating that basically outside of the Abrahamic faiths, that just doesn't really exist. That said, how do you go about using the texts mentioned in this video to reconstruct?
This topic isn't new to me, as such.. Christianity and paganism have mingled since the beginning of Christianity. Consider the pagan triple goddess Brigid and the Christian St Bridget that she became once Celtics lands became Christian. And...there's still discussion of pagan tradition inside Christianity and whether it should bother us (like the Christmas tree), to this day. As a Christian, I've had to ask the questions about my own practice, it's origin and it's utility, so it makes sense other faiths would do so.
But I always wondered how Pagans/Heathens determined their practices based on the fact that scant sources for the stories existed outside of those like those you mentioned. And the oral traditions that might be more trustworthy have disappeared. I found this video both educational and interesting. There is much value in an approach to a lot of things that is profoundly aware but not overly dismissive due to bias. Because, as you say, it's everywhere.
As a Christian who struggled with doubts I appreciate and admire this mans careful thought as well as his passion in his faith. Although we do not agree on everything, I greatly appreciate you being willing to share and elaborate on your faith. Best of luck to you and your walk.
Ocean Keltoi, great. And when you were speaking of Rome during the time of Tacitus, it made me think of the US. I know others have famously made the same comparison, but it is scary, how easily people are duped. Dammit. I still want you to read my thing on power, you do 'dramatic' so beautifully! One of these times , I'll be able to limit my comment and put it in. Also, thankyou for the guidance away from that other channel, I should have looked in his previous loads. 👍🥰💞✌🎃
Thank you so much for talking about the situation of the Sami in the past and nowadays! It's rarely ever mentioned and often carefully ignored by nordic countries, who want to build themselves an image of virtuous and innocent nations who didn't take part in colonization. As you pointed out their situation is still precarious today so special credit to you for raising awareness!
It's amusing to note that, via a combination of euhemerism and fantastic genealogy, Queen Elizabeth II is said to be descended from both Woden and the Prophet Muhammad.
Being new to Nordic Paganism, and Polytheism. I was wondering what your thoughts were on Neil Price. I've struggled throughout my life, when it comes to religion. I was baptized a Christian many years ago, but throughout my entire life, I've felt it to be nieve, to believe that there is only one God. I've also struggled to believe, that one God, is responsible for creating everything within our world. Which brings me to where I am today. I understand that Nordic Paganism, is considered to be, the religion of homework, so to speak. The lack of accurate information, tends to make things tough/annoying sometimes. But then I remember/realize, that it is up to us, to form our own thoughts, and opinions, of the topic at hand. Which is why I feel very comfortable, with the Norse Pagan religion. It seems more logical to me, and it reminds me, that this ancient religion of our ancestors, in my opinion, was more so meant to be, an individual/family
practice, as compared to an organized religion, meant to bring people together, and told what to believe, and then asked for a monetary donation, so that I too can be saved, by the almighty God. Lol. Thank you for sharing your wisdom, on all the topics, for which you address. Like Odin himself, I am always seeking knowledge, and or truths, in a world of people, who seem to not like truths anymore.
Hey Ocean thank you for talking a bit about the Sami! My fiance is Sami!
algorithm
This video has really enforces my feelings against any form of reconstructionism. You can use the sources of names, themes, and some traits of the entities of the Norse tradition but should not be used as any kind of base for a spiritual practice. UPC is far more important then these sources and IMO are much more genuine. We will never relive the pagan religion as it was in pagan times so the best thing we can do is do anything we can and use any tactics possible to commune and get results from the gods and entities of this particular spiritual path
I was under the impression that the Poetic Edda is considered more authentic because the language in some of the poems is an archaic form of old norse that dates back to the 900s before Christianization.
I still need to get my hands on the Eddas, so this was a good warning when I finally get them.
One of the many things I had to learn when I got into any mythology or folklore is that its going to get a lil bit of bleach on it.
Odin being your Local Old Man fits on his disguises of course, a wise old wizard man should do the trick. Local Old Man only though, he is not Florida Person (Loki)
Excellent content, as always. I really appreciate how you do deeper dives into pagan topics and take a scholarly perspective. So many heathen content creators stick to a very "surface level" approach and don't delve into topics outside of beginner "guides" and such. There's nothing wrong with beginner stuff and it's great that it exists, but I think it becomes too much of a safe zone to exist in and limits your audience. With all that said, I wouldn't mind seeing a new series from you sometime which has a bit broader of an approach to explaining the faith or something, as you do such a great job and more people need to watch your content. Also, your beard is magnificent. Do you ever use a straightener? I'm currently just wearing a moustache for the summer, but when my beard gets as long as yours the hair patterns do CRAZY things and I've considered a straightener to get it under control!
I suppose that it is a home thing when an author declares their bias up front, as Butler does in his translation of the Iliad.
I may be biased against open faced sandwiches, but I love pizza.
Interesting. I view pizza as a salad on a very large crouton.
So far entire month of July in southern Ontario Canada has been nothing But Thunder Lightning and rain
Well, the thought of Odin as a wizard, Merlin comes to mind for me. They share many favorable attributes.
Outstanding perspective and breakdown of historical sources and info! Nicely summed and a well needed caveat emptor for all religious seekers!
So this served as exactly what I was looking for in regards to doing my "heathen homework".
For those who struggle finding a way, thank you for making one.
One of the things I remember being taught in my high school history class was this; "Every source has a bias." I was often taught to compare sources to each other to find what was missing, and quite frankly, that skillset gets used a fair bit in my practice. It's quite easy to back certain things up cause of some archaeological findings (e.g. Loki's binding appearing on the Gosforth Cross) or by being mentioned in multiple sources (e.g. Baldr's death), but even then, I think critically about it. I'm plenty aware of the biases so any source can have, so when I read the sources it's for multiple reasons. Primarily, it's because of faith (duh) but the other is because of genuine interest. I've long loved folklore and fairytales, and being a Scot (while I'm hear; it depends how the word is spelt and which country you're referring to. Irish is 'GAH-lic', Scottish is 'GAY-lic'), and being a history nut naturally these sources are right up my alley. But I think one of the more crucial parts about recognising biases is recognising our own and the ones we've been conditioned to have. This is something I'm still working on and even struggling with as I was raised Mormon, and raised to believe that me being Autistic was inherently a sin and enough reason for 'God' to abandon me. Loki has full on called me out on this, basically going "I'm not going anywhere, but for goodness sake, acknowledge the fact you've got abandonment issues and work on them." It's an uphill battle, but one that I think is well worth it, even if one is just enjoying the sources as folklore and nothing more. I've nothing against that.
Vergil traced the founding of Rome from Aeneas the Trojan. Snorri and Geoffrey of Monmouth likewise linked their histories to Troy.
Exactly.
I have so much to say about this but I am a literal cave man as far as the net is concerned I will say as a heathen/pagan I love what you are doing keep spreading the knowledge
Skol little Brother!
I would have thought bias is when you pay for it.
I know the story of Odin sacrificing himself unto himself from Manowar. Gods of War is a great album. But now that you have said it out loud, I can't think of that story without thinking "Your Christianity is showing." Good to know that its not just Manowar's fault for not being professional historians, but that even when the story was first recorded, it was all ready Christianized.
Hey Ocean, I am Pagan and have a question concerning Germanic God's. I was told that I can't worship Loki or Ran because I'm not white. Is that true? I've feel drawn to them and made them a part of my shrine. Please help, thank you so much. Oh for a bit more info I am Native American(Turtle Island) my tribe is Mayan.
Whoever told you that is ridiculous. The Gods are not limited by dna.
@@OceanKeltoi Agreed. My ancestry is connected to the Middle East (my dad’s Jewish and his haplogroup is most common among people whose ancestors came from the Middle East) and Germany/part of Denmark (mom’s primarily German but we do have a small percentage of Denisovian DNA in the lineage). Yet I primarily worship the Celtic deities (especially Brighid who is an Irish Celtic deity) even though by that logic I should be worshipping the Phoenician deities and/or Germanic deities.
@@OceanKeltoi thank you. What you said was extremely validating for me.
@@mirandagoldstine8548 I also have Celtics God/dess on my alter.
@@inigoquixote2014 Lucky you. I currently can’t have an alter because of space and where I live (border south) so I make do with prayers.
This description of the Prose Edda reminds me of the Book of Invasions
Careful! Varg Vikernes might have an aneurysm if he heard that Christian sources can be reliable! Lol
Good.
The secrets are in the simplicity covered with poetic but complicated stories ... This "simplicity" is hidden in the Macedonian language ...
Regarding the hidden biases in the Poetic Edda, it's also possible that the connections to ideas associated with Christianity and other religions occurred naturally through cultural contact, especially considering that we're talking about the beliefs of a group of ancient explorers. In all likelihood there wouldn't have been a uniquely Norse faith separable from everywhere else to begin with, not only because the gods aren't restricted to a single people group or location, but because methods and views of religious practice are subject to human culture which refuses to obey borders. My thoughts on euhemerism are borrowed somewhat from Eastern religions, where there are beliefs in gods or other spiritual beings sometimes incarnating as humans. I don't see it as a contradiction at all for Odin to be both a human chieftain and a god.
I was always taught that Snorri wrote the POETIC Edda.
I learned something new today.😀
No Ragnarok. Well that blew a lot of heathenry out of the water!
@@MrLeadbutterfly what if it was the exact same, except that they didn’t die.
Fenrir the wolf only wanted to kill Odin cause the Old One Eye, tricked and betrayed him and locked him away.
Locking the young child away only creates hate for the adults around them.
People who overly seek to control the lives of the children around them, will one day have to deal with those children as adults turning against them.
Each battle and death in the telling of Ragnarok has many under lining means of ethical/ moral truths to them. Hidden wisdom.
@@MrLeadbutterfly May the G*Ds blessing also be on you too. Except for Loki everything with him is dry humor or out right weird absurdities.
@@MrLeadbutterfly Years ago just after the first Thor movie came out, I was at work talking with some of my friends and co-workers at the time.
One woman, " What is .. Tom Hiddleston .. doing standing in the production line ?!"
That dude that looks like Tom, " Why is everyone giving me strange looks ?"
Older black woman, " Cause you see Tom, from how we are seeing you .. Loki .. you are in the conveyor belt. Otherwise you are standing within the center of the table."
Where by .. Loki starts given little funny details regarding a little girl he once knew, and one young black woman in her early 20's says,
" My childhood imaginary friend of Loki wasn't make believe !"
Some guy, " You're imaginary childhood friend was Marvel's Loki ?"
Young black woman, " No, .. my make believe was the Nose myth, I didn't like comics cause they had no depth."
Loki, " But I like marvel's Loki, well at lest the good stories of him where the story arc covers multiple issues."
Other times he starts up talking to someone, and another persons see some guy just talking to someone that is not there. Yeah, .. uh .. hmm .. Tom, yeah that's his name, well Tom is just subtle as all that you can get at pranking people. Odin not so much.
a.) You have so called traditional heathens, folk/ volkism, of those that follow Norse Aesir myths.
b.) Then the Chaos magik mages that will go with the comic book Asgardians, cause why not.
c.) Then you have the set of elemental forces who reincarnated as Buddha that travel to different worlds and realities when a given group of people reach a stage of social development. Start influencing their dreams and moral/ ethical behavior just to see how the native species reacts and grows over time.
Another way of looking at the story of " Thor & Company Camping in the Giant's Glove," it is Yoda's darkside cave.
Despite what those fluffy bunny pagans have to say, the stone/ bronze age primal raiding war like Angrboda wolf mother " only the strong survive to breed," .. well .. she did motivate Germany's WW II imperialism mass murder. Watch enough wolf pack videos where a given pack gets big enough they will start mass killing all other packs for hunting rights. During winter the wolves will mass kill herds of game or live stock and burry the kills in snow for easier feeding.
For god's sake watch how brutal African wild dogs can get when their packs reach numbers into their 40's or 60's. They well start going after lions at that point.
Wolf spirits are like a twisted version of normal living wolves. The spirits may act as imaginary pets, friends, and protectors of small children, but to teenagers, you must earn your place within the pack. As adults only the strong and able are they friendly to. The Black Dog on highways, and the Shadow Hound of forests. They prey on human fear.
Watch a few videos of the German Werewolf Cult Soldiers. Astral beings are Force to obey given laws that humans have to figure out so we can work with them or cast spells to control them. But over all, they just want your emotions or a given .. type .. of emotion to feed on to effect human reality in subtle ways. Christians talk about having a " personal relationship " with Jesus, and Jesus talks to them. Yeah, ok .. why does Jesus never tell his worshipers that a close friend or school/ church member/ official is " cough," abusing their small children ?
Seen a YT video covering a story that came out a few years before the Thor movie, where a young male teenager was sent to the dean office, instead of calling the boy's parents. They had a cop go to pull off the boy's 2ndA t-shirt with Old Glory printed on it. The 14 yo started to chant " Odin " and it turn into a five way fist fight with the youth, end result the father was livid and went to sue the school and department.
Chanting the old gods leads to battle rages, sometimes without the kill impulse, as for Jesus ..
You have cowards that won't do nothing to make the world a better place, cause way too many think the sooner The Mark of the Beast happens, the sooner their Savior will show up to take them to Heaven and recreate the world.
Over all when I could really do with some help from Jesus, he was not there for me when I fell into Darkness, .. Others where there waiting for me. I had .. problems .. when I was 16 years old, I went to all of my city's Christian churches and all they did was said, " Pray to Jesus."
I went to the only Jewish temple in town, and they walked me through my problems for close to a year, and they knew I was going pagan. They just regard it as their duty to help me balance my path to the Source. I also met Survivors of Germany WW II camps, they told me to roll with what I can, endure what I can't roll with, and hit back any way if I was able. As we all are, we are in G*D's hands.
2.) My Jewish guide as a teenager, .." The less Key of Solomon cover 72 angels & demons, at first it was a single being with a positive & negative trait, then the early bronze age scholars .. he laughs .. list 144 human personality traits. 144 divide by 12 months gives you 12 personality traits for each month, you don't have to take my word but I can tell you my wife has more than 12 personalities each month.
The Christian world view really doesn't make sense, but if you look at the world as Natural Selection through evolution by reincarnation to reach Buddha hood. Of barely evolved apes with astral souls struggling through survival of the biological and ethical fittest it starts to makes sense. East African rock monkeys do to their social compassion will take care of a stray baby jackal and the Jackal grows to an adult taking care of the monkeys from other jackals, and humans think we train sheep dogs. It is our ethic of compassion that allows us to survive as a group and biological we are just lucky to survive having the flu. ( He takes off and cleans his eye glasses, ) Along with having bad eye sight and not being able to run very fast, we learn not to take any unneeded chances cause we have people to look after.
My reply, " You just cross the line of being a heretic on my religious sects and the social boundaries regarding .. ethic biological supremacy. "
Jewish guide, " Buddha, we learn what we need to when we are ready. Hence reincarnation, the human soul is the lotus bulb and the flowering to the surface of the water reaching for the Sun is each new life."
Me, " Yeah, I got that when I was 15, don't judge a tree to bear fruit out of its season. My English teacher was happy I was starting to learn something."
3.) The difference in mythology,..
a.) Egyptian it is stories about the gods, so is the same with Northern Europe.
b.) Greeks it is about half gods and heroes.
c,) Jews, .. it is about sometimes normal people just dealing with life, their place in the world and the sometimes failed relationship with G*D.
Which the Imperial council of Nicea highjacked and bastardized.
Jewish tradition can leave you lost and screwed over when mix with politics.
Christian traditions breaks down in sects that just brain wash people with fear.
The Torah/ Old Testament when read with 12 different views makes you start questioning reality but it is a book for living on life. As many rabbi have stated, Christianity New Testament is about an After Life, the Torah is about how to live a good life on Earth, cause death is merely death, and their is not life without death.
Aesir Nine Realms shown as three inter locking triangles represent nine aspects of consciousness by each triangle point, and tracing the inter locking lines to the point is traveling into the subconscious. " This is where you get the Inner Space becoming the Outer Space."
I burnt myself out as a teenager chasing .. power/ knowledge/ understanding ..
When I was 25 years old just hanging around by one foot from a tree branch which creep some city folk out, they ask my grandma what I was doing, upside down with my arms spread like an inverted cross.
Granny, " He is just talking to Odin, looking into the Well of Worlds."
Blue jean jackets at times used to be the same shade of blue when human blood pools and bruises the skin, which was the color of Odin's cloak, and the left side of Hel's face. Other than thick cotton jacket keep you warm when ridding a motorcycle, why did biker clubs/ gangs like jean jackets so much over leather with a bunch of Norse themes ? Also with high way speeds and wiping out when drinking and driving/ ridding could cripple you for life and leave you dead on the spot.