What if England Won the Hundred Years' War?
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- Опубліковано 12 гру 2023
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#alternatehistory #history #england #france
An alternate history scenario asking what would happen if England had beaten France in the Hundred Years' War. In particular we looked at the new English-French Union, the longervity of the Union, the historical context of the relationship between England and France, their surrounding neighbours such as Spain and Austria, England's dynamic with the Duchy of Burgundy, and many more factors. In particular the figures of King Philip II Augustus of France, and King Henry V of England were key figures helping explain this alternate timeline, alongside Charles the Bold, Duke of Burgundy.
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![The Battle of Agincourt | Unravelling a Most Famous Victory | Hundred Years War [Episode 14]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/vnpcd-HX5FE/mqdefault.jpg)
Thank you for watching. Feedback on quality and video ideas would be appreciated as always.
I suspect the Anglo-French union would in effect become a French-run Union. French still being a dominant language and France being the biggest of the two pats and the focus of the aristocracy. So losing the 100 years war was necessary for the development of England.
Would definitely like a version where the union happens earlier and takes on a more French-centric route :)
Divergences of darkness be like
(Its a victoria 2 mod look it up)
Small correction: the first English speaking king was technically Edward longshanks (yes, *that* Edward longshanks), who was recorded as “habitually speaking English”, which would indicate that it was the main language that he spoke, so at least two generations before the Hundred Years’ War.
Amazing video though btw!
A video where the two stick together and a roughly equal blend Anglo-French culture (and with maybe the norm being a bilingual populace, though that’s definitely pushing it) eventually forming would be interesting though, perhaps focusing on Catholicism as an initial baseline of unity.
And even so, there’s evidence that technically previous English kings did know English to some extent as well. The nobility in England, particularly the lower nobility, spoke Anglo-Norman, which is obviously for all intents and purposes a combination of English and French, not just pure French. So the king very likely still knew a lot of Anglo-Norman and therefore knew a bit of English logically speaking. The idea that Medieval English kings were completely disconnected with their own people is a bit overblown.
@@TAKE_BACK_BRITAINI’d say the earliest one to understand it was probably Henry I (spent most of his adult life in England unlike his older brothers, and married a Scottish princess), Henry II and his sons might not have been fluent on account of the amount of time they spent in their French possessions, but by the reign of Edward I most of those possessions had been lost and he spent the great majority of his reign in England, so it stands to reason he’d be the first fluent speaker, although French was likely still his first language. The primacy of french slowly died as it became largely a bastardized diglossic language (Law French) which had a lot of its institutions decimated by the Black Death and the deposition of Richard II in favor of Henry IV, which broke the dominance of the French language among the elite, at least as an everyday speech. Obviously intellectuals to this day tend to learn a variety of languages, and French remains popular as a second language in Britain. From my studies of the Grocer’s Company archives, however, I can safely see that the “quality” of French declined with every generation, by the fourteenth century it was a bastardized pidgin language, and by the fifteenth century it was barely used outside a few phrases, and by the sixteenth century it’s completely extirpated.
@@seantolson6223
To be fair, Henry II’s sons (aside from his first who died early on anyway) were all born in England too. Including the infamous Richard the Lionheart who has become a controversial king in recent years because he supposedly loved France more than England. However, this belief is lacking in context to the point where it has become misinformation. Even Henry II apparently knew English to a certain extent and he wasn’t born in England.
@@TAKE_BACK_BRITAIN With Richard, it can't be denied that he hardly spent any time in England before being unceremoniously killed in battle. Even if in his youth he was exposed to English, his skills would probably be lacking after his entire adult life was spent in France and Outremer.
@@TAKE_BACK_BRITAIN Anglo norman is the english name of Norman-French, there's no english in it. And Richard the Lionheart never spoke english because he was basically french, his father being from Anjou and his mother from Aquitaine, it is said he never been in England more than 3 weeks, he had more lordshipds in france than in england also.
7:37 French culture would be suppressed? Bro ... what sources are you consulting for this? France clearly was the more prestigious holding with greater wealth, people, and productivity. There's a reason why the Plantagenet Kings when they controlled large parts of France, they spent more time there. The new Lancastrian King of France would move to Paris to rule his wealthier lands styling himself as a proper French King. The whole basis of his claim was that he was the natural and rightful heir of the House of Capet which he was descended from.
French was a prestige language within the court of English Kings. Modern English as we know it came about because of the influence Norman French. The old English tongue of the Anglo-Saxons was closer to the Scandinavians with England more oriented towards them instead of the European continent prior to the Norman Invasion.
You're neglecting certain factors, such as the fact that English was made The official language of the English court soon before I had their victory in this timeline. The distinguishment between the two cultures had already happened by this point of the 100 Years' War, and it was substantial.
An example would be the Arab invasions of the Middle East, in which the Arabs with no sophisticated civilizational history asserting their culture over regions such as Egypt or Syria (plenty of notable Christian theologians and other cultural developments existed in the early caliphates for example). Was mainland Arabia as prestigious, wealthy, populous or productive as any of the regions they conquered? I'm not trying to dismiss your point as invalid with this drastic example, I'm arguing it's not a steadfast rule, particularly given the distinguishment between the English and French that had happened by that point in the timeline, and Henry V's proto-nationalism regarding the matter.
Additionally there were literally English settlements in Northern France by this period, as in English speakers, who were distinct from the French in the region. I'm unsure if I remembered to mention this in the script, but I argued it sufficiently regardless.
I've seen your opinion continually stated in all of the research I've done, but found it insufficient for the reasons I've mentioned and more. So I am going against the grain. But of course in an early phase of the war (definitely before Henry V), or during the Angevin period, the situation you describe would have played out in my opinion.
Obviously we're talking alternate history, so I'm just giving my opinion here as opposed to your opinion, and I appreciate this sort of discussion, and would enjoy any response you'd wish to give. But I won't be tolerant of the "bro what are your sources" condescending shtick.
@@HistorysInfluence The Arabs had a religious motive, with Islam being a religion of Arab culture. It's not a good comparison to use the arabs, especially in this contest. The English do not have a religion of an English prophet who has the English language as its core. The 100 Years' War is a dispute between French nobles for control of France. The only thing is that one side conquered another territory (England) and is using that territory to continue this war.
Regarding the issue of sources, it makes sense. Because your statement in the video that French culture will be suppressed over English culture doesn't make much sense. As a whole, the video is fun, completely wrong in the idea of imposing English culture on French culture. when in fact it will be the opposite. But fun anyway.
Regarding Protestantism, it is unlikely that either of them will become Protestants. Having disputes between them does not make them change their religion. In the same way that the various disputes between France, Austria and Spain did not change the religion of these powers.
In relation to power in Europe. France+Burgundy (which will probably be called France, with the title being more important than the Duchy of Burgundy, the same for the English conquest). The Kingdom of France with Burgundy as a whole will be the greatest power both on land and at sea, with only the Spanish with their infinite wealth in the new world managing to compete (Although in a weaker form). In relation to England, it is difficult to say the future of this power.
The same in relation to colonization in the new world, with more power the French could, for example, have won the dispute against the Portuguese for Brazil, or the English could have been the power that discovered the new world (among other factors).
@@mathiassunyenetto3818 I agree with you but in this scenario it isnt the plantagenates who conquered france but far later on, by that time the engluish and french had too much differences to still be fully reintegrated
@@cameroonemperor755 Yes, during this period the differences between the two groups were quite large. But these differences between the English and French will not generate a suppression of French culture. In the worst case, English is the language of dual union, although French was once again the "noble" language of the era. As a whole, it is difficult for a smaller and less populous country to keep its culture intact when conquering a much larger country.
It would become just like the Eastern Romans Greek speaking or in this case French speaking. This scenario also assumes there isn’t any migration from either side which is not feasible
Ever heard of Divergences of Darkness? It's a Victoria 2 mod covering History as it unfolded from an English victory in the Hundred Years War.
It would have meant France Ruling England. The nobles in both France and England, were French. The Hundreds years war, was French Royalty in Britain, wanting to take back, there lands in France.
In a Unified France and England, the center of power, would have shifted to France.
What if Joan of arch fought for the English instead of the french?
Probably not much tbh, she was really only famous for her role as a Frenchwoman.
Voyons monsieur cela est impossible ! Sainte Jehanne est du coté de DIEU.
Yes e wanted France to spread all the ideas that have beset The World for the last 200 years and more
@@laraik1198Joan of Arc is a false saint. Crazy woman.
God is and always will be on England’s side. England shall be the new jerusalem when Christ returns.
No blasphemy pls.
Fantastic! I look forward to more videos.
Nice Video
your channel is vastly underrated!
I love your videos man, you even took a new take rather than just copy the english become french and rule it forever scenarios as well as burgundy becoming french. Great work
Glad to hear you enjoyed it, I remember you from the old videos lol.
Wouldn't the English become french considering the nobility were french.
@@blugaledoh2669 Well most likely yeah but thats also the scenario for every other alt history on english victory and and he chose a late victory scenario, so I guess whether the nobility is french or not no one would like to be ruled by the ennemy anyway so they might as well be angloids
Fantastic scenario, man! I think it’s realistic and actually quite thought provoking.
If either of the big 2-England of France, gets their hands on the Low Countries I think it makes them an ascendant economic power
Realy nice alt history mate, other alt history in this area normaly always say the english culture would be intergrared to frentch culture. I would personaly love a What if the Crusaders won the Battle of Varna, it is a very intresting divergence and again great video👌
He already made a what if the crusaders won at Varna.
"HES BAAAAAAAACK!!!!!!!!"
-That one minion of eggman in the movie.
The Plantagenets would just use loyal French nobility to rule France. This isn't controlling a foreign country it would simply gather aristocratic support for a domestic dynasty replacing another French dynasty.
We Anglos could try being less Anglocentric.
Yes but ironically enough the English kings became more English by the end of the war.
@@TAKE_BACK_BRITAIN exactly.
But prior to our French overlords anglicizing at the end of the 100 year war, in the beginning their priests, armies, clerics, nobles and aristocrats and historians were as Gallicized frenchmen as ever.
A Plantagenet victory is a French dynastic change.
I'm glad we lost or we'd of gallicized more and more French immigrants would make us all French.
Britain almost became a larger Corsica.
Our loss was a Anglo independence
What if the Nederlands won the 80 years war
What if Sweden Romania Greece joined the central powers
What if the British french American Empires collapsed
What if the sassanids weren't conquered by the Rashudin caliphate
I get that increased english nationalism and cohesion would give england the edge but i cant help but believe that because france was the more populated and wealthy of the two the english kings would set up on paris instead. Like james 1 moving to london. They've tried to rule from paris and probably lose a lot of the british isle territory to scotland
hey, just to say that I love your videos, but as a french person, I can't watch a video where the perfidious albion wins x)
I would not be as extreme as other comment that said that in your scenario Henry V would just fancy himself as a French king, however i think you somewhat underestimate the prestige and the grip French culture still had over english culture at the time. The nobility ceased to be primarily French speaking, that's true, however they still were learning french as evidenced by a multiplicity of french language manual from the late 100 years war period and french was still the language of lawmaking in England for quite a while even after their OTL defeat. Another piece of evidence is how lot of latin words modeled on french or directly french words entered the English language after the end of 100 years war.
My opinion is that at worst they would rule the French in French and replace part of the French nobility be an English one. There would be a big insentive for English nobility to keep learning French and to assimilate to their local newly ruled subjects. This would create a new Franco-English elite which would be seen as a foreign dominant force and like you said in your video create lots of resentment from the French. But the French culture would not be "supressed" probably more like "appropriated" by the English. The Anglo-Normans were very instrumental in the birth of French non-latin litterature and they were motivated by the will of presenting their dominion over Britain and part of France as legitimate by sponsoring epics about Roland, Charlemagne aswell as Arthurian cycle with the myths of a Briton king ruling over both France and Britain before even the de Normandie and Plantagenets. I think this trend would continue with this time a more English-centered strand but still with the idea of connecting the king of England and France to previous "glorious" leaders such as Arthur or Charlemagne. These epiques would be sponsored both in the English and French language to propagandize within both sphere of cultures. This would inevitably cause some sort of supression of French culture, but English culture would keep being very much influenced by French culture as it was even in our own TL and even more in this one since the crown is directly involved in French affairs.
Yes, it was a very particular exploration of the power in Europe, and Napoleon can be more strange exploration of identity, today, we ask again to ourselves
France with Belgium and the Netherlands ? That's an hegemony right there
I still find it super weird that whenever a smaller country conquers a larger one it usually ends up being assimilated into the country they conquered so therefore losing in a way like why invade since it would end the same way if the larger one invaded you like sure it’s you in control and not them but their culture still consumes yours so is it really you in control?
Well same with the Franks they conquered a large gallo Roman population. They were absorbed instead of absorbing. That’s what happens when you conquer a larger population than you have.
Life would be tragic if England won against the French.
You use your example the Norman conquest of England, and yet you assume that the English couldn't repeat the Normans request. I think you need to expand on the chance that the English could repeat the success of the Normans. Especially as France was not homogeneous, especially Gascony and Brittany.
7:43 The map doesn't really match up with the discussed time period. In the first place, Hungary didn't look like that until the second half of the 16th century. Furthermore, the Holy Roman Empire at the time was ruled by Sigismund of Luxemburg (who was also King of Bohemia and of Hungary), not the Habsburgs. Sure, Sigismund was succeeded by Albert von Habsburg in his realms, however he was part of the Albertine Habsburgs and only controlled Lower and Upper Austria (Inner and Further Austria were ruled by other branches).
Also, apart from the Burgundians, it would have been nice if you talked about the fate of Charles VII and his descendants, or the Valois-Anjou dynasty of Provence, or maybe even the House of Anjou of Naples.
I think you jumped forward too much. The Burgundians ascending the French throne should have been the conclusion, while most of the video should have focused on how exactly does Henry V secure and pacify France, and what are its immediate consequences both domestically and abroad.
Good spot regarding the Austrian borders. The Anjou dynasty would have been an interesting topic to discuss.
Hmm. I felt I was fixating too much in the video on the Henry V period and wanted to make it more broad to be more "interesting", although this mainly came from the fact I felt I should have done another point of departure to make the union last longer. It's good to know you found that part interesting and actually wanted to see more of it.
What's with the thumbnail flag? The english flag already represented france.
It’s allegedly the arms of Henry VI when he officially became king of France. I agree that It makes no sense like you said. But to be fair I also haven’t see any sources that say that’s what his arms even looked like. I lean towards it not being real because it looks like bs.
But henry v was already in line to become king of france. He just died too soon
👍
What if France was made of chocolate?
What I don’t understand is why King Charles doesn’t claim the French throne, raise an army and invade the French now.
The claim was officially abandoned in 1802 after the French Revolution and when Ireland was added to the Union; and not brought up again after the restoration of the French monarchy.
Because hed get absolutely bodied, the UK ruled the waves... A few centuries ago, but they never ruled the Land
What if Louis VIII of France had succeeded in conquering England?
just impossible foe england to rules france, not in all they re dreams!
England is a French colony since 1066. The one hundred years war is a civil war not between England and france but between two French family from French nobilty : the Plantagenets ruling England ( they spoke medieval French their official language , france being their ancestral and rightful homeland ) and The Valoys (ruling france ) . If the French Plantagenets had won that civil war , England would continue to be a colony of france for ever. It’s so obvious
No?
in that sense WW1 was just a german nobility civil war no?
Other than France, the vast majority of participants in WW1 had german royal families.
@@GlizzyGoblin757 That’s like saying an American who’s grandad came over From Ireland in 1823 is Irish. They’re not.
@@Finnbobjimbob the Plantagenets claimed rightfully the throne of france because they were French
Yes very true In a Unified France and England, the center of power, would have shifted to France.
What if imperialism survived after ww2
If England won the 100 years war France would have ruled England 😂😂😂
Oh the delicious irony and if France conquered England the it would be the same outcome either way England is screwed lol 😂
Disagree entirely. If Henry V had lived and been crowned king of the joint kingdom, je would have extended English Law to all of his kingdom, including newly conquered France. The French never had Magna Carta, so if that became law in France, the whole game changes. If English bureaucracy was extended to France, that also is a game changer. You didn't think it through very well. You took a typical American anti-British attitude and forgot that English law is the basis of American law. As is English bureaucracy. Try again with these factors. 😊😊😊
!
they would have stolen everything that wasn't nailed down, because they are British.
Cope
nice reddit meme bro
England conquered Scotland? Aye right.
2 of the worst countries united, what a terrible timeline.
I wonder if theyd still have bad teeth
Without them the USA wouldn’t exist
And the USA may never have existed or could have become a French speaking country
Racist much? Success breeds jealousy and contempt.
@finnisbored505 success. Like having your empires falling apart and the only reason you still exist is our money?
And btw, French and British are not people. And therefore can't be racist towards.
coming from an american?? lmao.
Also statistically better dental health than you.
“2 of the worst”, America is THE worst.