What if the Fourth Crusade Never Happened?
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- Опубліковано 15 тра 2024
- / historysinfluence
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An alternate history video. What if the dreaded Fourth Crusade never happened, and how would the Byzantine empire be impacted as a result?
I plan on making more content like this, please comment if you would like more alternate history scenarios, or just general history content.
Timestamps:
0:00 - Introduction
1:21 - The "New" Fourth Crusade and Venice
2:53 - The Mongols and Anatolia
5:26 - Italy, Great Schism, The Balkans
8:14 - Ottomans, Timurids, Persia, Russia
11:15 - Renaissance, Colonialism, Industrialisation and Modern Day
14:48 - Conclusion
Music Credits:
Lost in prayer - UA-cam Music Library
Gates of Constantinople - Europa Universalis IV Copyright [2013] Paradox Interactive AB
Welcome to Constantinople - Europa Universalis IV Copyright [2013] Paradox Interactive AB
Then i woke up and realized it was a video and cryed myself to sleep :(
but i will dream about this
is like having a Christian ottoman empire I LOVE IT
But a bit smaller
ottoman empire was a muslim version of roman empire already. If Turkey was a christian country it probably would have the most similar culture to byzantines.
@@mertozbek680 It would be just a Byzantine Empire with a Turkish population and the line of Osman in the throne and these Christian Turks would assimilate and try their best to copy Byzantine culture
@@mertozbek680 if Turkey was Christian it would be like Greece’s best friend.
@@dewd9327 No if that was the case they would have been only one nation Rome
Good video I wish the 4th Crusaders weren’t so stupid. I’m glad you understand real history the Byzantine Empire was the Roman Empire the Holy Roman Empire was a pretender state. Thank you for bringing up the Armenian Genocide they tried to downplay it
13:39 I highly doubt the byzantines would just give up Egypt after getting it back It would make the rest to Europe invade them to take it back because Egypt was a core part of the Byzantine Empire and they weren't going to give it back
Yes, but the people of Egypt would rebel and fight an independence war, after seeing the rest of the world decolonize. Egypt would have to have a Greek majority to stay in the empire till the modern age. And that would not happen bc of Egypt's huge population.
@@comrademakno Egypt may just join the Byzantines because of their historic connection
@@benshiotsu8553 The thing is they would be a different culture, and in the modern world multi ethnic country's don't last so long and are very unstable eventually Egypt would want independence and the byzantines would have to give in to them unless if they would spend a huge amount of resources to occupie them.
yeah i bet the romans would dump all their energy on making Egypt a viable province. Not only for the core-breadbasket province aspect but also because it would give them direct access to India, East Africa and China. By the 1600-1800's the kopts werent gone yet. I could see greek settlement coupled with kopt revival. Alexandria had a small greek population until the 1900's in our timeline
The Egyptians would've rebelled heavily. France was also adamant on keeping some of its colonies like Algeria but the people's might overcame it.
If the Ottomans couldn't have even kept their territories in Iraq and Greater Syria, then neither could the Romans
i really wish Byzantium survived both the fourth crusade and the fall of Constantinople
this is the one and only dream i wish it would come true
Same I'm a byzantiphile
@@comrademakno same here 😢😢
Byzantophile 4 life
@علئ ياسر ? Uh no
Why bother with 4th Crusade and Manzikert whilst you can have Justinian never Attacking Ostrogothic Kingdom or the Vandals, thus Eastern Roman Empire remaining more Compact and Wealthy giving it a Better chance of Surviving Rashidun Caliphate.
keep making more alt history mate
Great video, I really enjoyed it
Cheers man
Me too, it was really educative
Roma = Byzantium
I once met a girl, who’s parents had come to the US from Greece. They had come from Thessaloniki, but their parents, her grandparents, had gone to Thessaloniki after centuries of living in constantinople. They still called themselves “Romeii” Romans
I barely stopped myself from crying....
Good stuff. However one tip for your oration. You use your throat to speak a lot, so some sounds are hard to differentiate from others. Almost like you are slighly slurring your words.
My suggestion is to take a deep breath before each sentence.
To be honest I noticed the same problem but I wasn’t sure what was causing it, I’ll try that in my next video. Thanks for the tip I appreciate it.
@@HistorysInfluence yeah just try to use your chest to resonate your voice. A very minor thing to do considering the content is quite good.
I've always wished some one would do this "what if?" :)
Great video! With this level of quality I would say you're easily one of my new favorite alternate history youtubers, alongside Alternate History Hub, Whatifalthist, and Monsieur Z.
I see WW2 playing out very differently or even WW1. If Rome(Byzantium) begins to see a people looking to national identity and they consider themselves Roman. I think it is likely we would see them at the very least make an attempt to go for Rome. Especially, if we apply them to say WW2. Mussolini cannot happen as our timeline. If anything he would be a Roman at heart and being want to reunite Italy with Rome. The biggest issue is the two might actually fight over who has the right to the name and thus causing Rome to be reunited regardless of who would win. I do agree with your timeline as a very likely situation for Rome. Now it is important to know that the Romani (Romans) in much larger numbers would be still alive today. We likely would have a history written by Rome. America would be created as our time in a creation to be like Rome. I think that some Romans might take the chance and actually enter into the young republic creating a very Romanic United States of America. It really is an interesting idea how this actually the reverberates throughout history. Now WW2 Hitler I think would be effected by the change. I am not totally sure on what Germany would look like as Rome still would be alive and perhaps fighting to reunify. The only part here would be depends on if either sided with the Axis or Allies or just a personal war between Italy and Rome for control of the Empire.
Rome would likely seek alliance with Russia and with either France or the U.K if Italy were to go down the "We're the original" Rome route, they'd stay against Germany since Germany would still want to rule europe. They'd also naturally be against Napoleonic France, but I feel like after the American revolution, Rome might be more willing to return some powers to the senate, while still maintaining an emperor. I think a modern Rome would have a Roman Emperor who still has a lot of power, but with a stronger, and more stable senate due to seeing the progress and effects that the American Republic had.
That said, the American Republic would take more influence from Rome in this timeline, and probably won't start off as decentralized as it did in our timeline, making a more unified American identity earlier on.
That being said, the Romans stilled believed they were a republic, and probably wouldn't have a violent civil war, or anything like that in order to reform itself, but likely a mixture of outcry from the populace about returning to the original routes of the empire.
Romani? I hope you’re not mistaking the gypsies for romans lol.
Best Byzantine timeline so far
Nice video, looking forward to see more
Excellent video!
Well done. Thanks.
Good video keep this up and you'll be one of the great what if history channels 👍 great quality for a newcomer too👌
Interesting video, hope to see more in the future.
Wow great video dude!
Really good video man, can't wait for more in the future.
@@JustinianG I already watch your content
New sub mate, really good stuff!
Excellent.
Great video 👍 please make more videos about byzantinum.
I'm considering doing a Justinian based one in the future
Very nice
This content is underated, how the heck do you now have 5k+ subscribers? Anyways, love the content man, keep it up!!! God bless! :)
Lack of uploads lol. Thank you for the support
I could imagine the empire wouldve survived longer if the 4th crusade never happened, I doubt they'd reconquer all of Anatolia though (the Byzantine Empire rarely seemed to expand that much since about the 8th or 9th centuries) but probably parts of it, maybe parts of Bulgaria too
but survive to the modern day? Pretty hard to know that, with 800 years more to speculate.
The Byzantine Empire wouldve naturally lagged behind the rest of Europe once the age of colonialism would start, and the Turks wouldn't exactly go away as an issue in this timeline
Idk, at best in this timeline, if the Byzantine Empire did somehow survive to the modern age, it might’ve just essentially been Greece surviving as independent to the modern age, and instead of being known as Greece, it wouldve just been known as Byzantium, or even still just the Roman Empire, with the Greeks having called themselves that into even the modern era
Still, this would be so mindblowing, having a state on the map in modern times which in has continously existed for thousands of years since the ancient era.
Bro make more videos. How do you only have 77 subs?! wtf.
unless they somehow attempted a reconquest of egypt, its unlikely they wouldn't keep pressure on Southern Italy as it was a much more productive region.
Could you maybe do what if Byzantium won at Manzikert. 4th Crusade definitely did irreversible damage but Manzikert for sure was a huge set back but could be turned around with good management.
Manzikert wasnt that much of a hit, but it unleashed the problems the Empire was facing ever since death of Basil II
One question what about the black plague wouldn't that stall the byzantines from taking back anitolia? Besides that I love it and was a great video!
I like the analysis. I play a strategy came called Europa Universalis IV, which starts in 1444. I mostly play as Byzantium, and try to re-form the Roman Empire. Needless to say, taking on the Turks in 1444 is **ahem!** a challenge. But, I like nothing better than to vanquish the Turks from Anatolia, reclaim the Levant, restore Egypt to the Empire, re-take the Balkans, and take Italy. Of course, the ultimate goal is helping wayward Catholics and later Protestants see the error of their ways (usually by force) and heal the schism once and for all.
Haha. Back in 2018 I used to always play byzantium, I used to do ironman and I had like 150ish attempts trying to get the perfect start. Ended up getting it and had a beautiful campaign. Back then the "mend the schism" mission didn't even convert the catholic countries lol.
Roman empire had been decayed for long time before the sack of Constantinople. After the east-west division, every successful attempt at expansion always came at the cost of further shrinkage of their territory within a generation. If the trend persisted, chances are by 19th century, they will be left as a minor Balkan state around Thrace.
We should not forget that there was not just Ottoman empire threat from Anatolia. Bulgarian empire existed just north of Constantinople as well. And it's the threat of both empires that prevent Byzantine from exacting their ambitions.
if the byzantines had anatolia they would have beaten the bulgarians as well
also becoming a minor state only in thrace seems very unlikely since mainland greece would be majority greek
same with western anatolia
it could shrink as a state but i doubt it would be a minor state
perhaps like modern greece with constantinople western anatolia and thrace
Please do a no Prussia timeline or an extension of this focusing outside the Balkans?
No Prussia video coming soon...
It's not as simple as it's painted. Even in 1203 the Greeks had already been suffering under decades of corruption and due to that most of anotolia was functionally independent (many of the post 1204 fragmentary states were actually lead by these regional nobles). Before you can think of major expansion these nobles would have to be dealt with and possibly admistrative reform. The reconquest could happen that rapidly if the Mongol collapse causes chaos among the turk tribes but it would lead to 2 or 3 centuries (at absolute minimum) of unrest while Greek recolonisation and integration occurred, a few regions would probably have remote populations of Turks, though not massive populations as Turks were not very populus at that time.
The Bulgarian identity was very established by the 1200s, as established as English identity in the same time. It's the 800-900 that Bulgarian identity was formed.
I wouldn’t say that tbh, the English identity as we know it today was not at all very well established, it had been Only a century after the conquest by the Normans, the upper classes were predominately French and the peasants Anglo Saxon, it was only after the 100 years war where the English identity was fully 100% solidified
Pretty much my look on this love you look on it.
How about if the Incan rebel state survived in Peru. The portion in the Amazon that lasted years after the rest fell.
Another great look would be theordoric the greats kingdom of Italy.
.
The neo-Incan state is quite fascinating. I'm considering doing a Justinian alternate timeline, perhaps if he never did the invasions at all, which would have a big impact upon the ostrogoths.
Make Istanbul Constantinople Again!
If the Varangian Guard still exists in this timeline (in like a French foreign legion kinda form maybe) that would be cool, they’d probably still be around in this timeline if the sack of Constantinople failed it would be because the Varangian guard wouldn’t have been held back and be let loosed know to the Crusaders and the city (and most importantly the empire) would surely be thankful to them and want to keep them around. Idk what do guys think, do you think they’d grow corrupt and bloated like the Praetorians and Janissaries or just like Rome in this timeline, stand the test of time.
tbh in this timeline the romans reconquered anatolia would focus on recapturing Bulgaria,Mosiea ,crimera and then by Mid 1300s and early 1400s they would focus alot of effort in reconquering the levant,Egypt and Cyrenaica so they have alot more time to have colonies in this timeline of course if they close the slik road like in OTL
Here is another question: What if Kaloyan helped the byzantines like Tervel did?
Guys we have to go back, I don't know how, but we must
After watching this video i got tears from eyes. everything was so close but those damn venicians ruined everything
What if the Ottomans converted to Christianity? It would be interesting to see a Christian ruler who was at war with the Ottomans and won have just once condition for the Ottomans to accept in return for peace. That being the Ottomans allow missionaries to enter and teach in the empire without persecution. I think the Ottoman rulers would accept if it was the only thing they had to do as a payment in a lost war.
There's a downside that hasn't been considered.
The Winged Hussars would have no need to arrive.
Interesting video. I really hope you make more of these.
One thing tho. What's stopping Bulgarians and South Slavs from wanting independence tho? Especially Bulgaria since they have been historically a rival to Byzantines, and both might wanna resist 'Greek-ruled' empire.
Are the Turks of Anatolia Hellenized in this timeline? If not, wouldn't they also want independence, due to huge cultural differences between them and Greeks?
Thanks man. I mentioned in the video that the Bulgarians would be assimilated into Greek culture, and my end map of Byzantium didn't include the other slavic land. Yes, the Turks would have been hellenised, which was likely given Greek Christians were still present in those regions of Anatolia at that time.
This assimiliation is highly unlikely especially around 1200. The Bulgarians had just liberated themselves and they had one of their greatest kings back them with some important alliances also. They were on the rise and Constantinople was already a bit weak - conquering them would not be possible for the next 50 years at least - so, maybe their only chance was in Anatolya.
@@HistorysInfluence You clearly underestimate us.
I don't think Rome/Byzantium wouldn't have joined the central powers in world war 1 mainly because it had/has been in competition with Austria and Hungary for control over the Balkan's, and instead it probably would've remained neutral with it probably joining the allies after America joined in on the side of the allies (basically like otl Greece). It's involvement in world war 2 be bit more up in the air and it would depend on the two power-hungry mad-men in charge of Italy and Germany, but in all likely hood it would remain neutral in that war. The cold war wouldn't have happened either as Russia with Roman/Byzantine help would modernize and industrialize much sooner in this timeline (by 1908 at the latest) likely avoiding the absolute nightmare that was the Russian Revolution and the wonderfully awful side affects of that.
I doubt Bulgaria would be part of the Empire for long, though. They showed that they simply don't want be part of it before. I see the modern Byzantium roughly the territory of Greece and Turkey combined, plus Cyprus. As for importance, I'm guessing a very strong soft powere because of culture prestige. Like France on steroids.
I think Rumelia (Eastern Rumelia) and perhaps Macedonia and if the Empire is very lucky, Albania. Could all remain as part of the Empire.
I dubt that Timur who conquered much of anatolia in 1406 would enter in war with the Empire. And possibly siege Constantinople. But it us possible Byzantine have access to plate armor and cannons in this tineline. Olso a strong byzantium could attract the mongols in 1240 once they leraned about some rich cities west of anatolia.
Ethnic makeup of this country would have been like
Balkan: Greeks, Albanians, Serbo-Croats, Aromanians, Bulgarians, Romanians
Crimea: Greeks, Russians, Ukrainians, Crimean Tatars, Germans, Armenians
Anatolia: Greeks, Anatolian Turkomans (of what etnic Turkish would have been like in this timeline), Armenians, Kurds, Arabs, Assyrians
i think albanians aromanians and bulgarians would dissapear as time went by
same about the turks
the greeks would have been a much much larger ethnicity than our timeline
@@TheHunterOfYharnam I'm not so sure about Bulgarians. They had their own script and independent identity and Byzantine grasp on the region after it was pacified by Basil II was always more limited to trade routes, Urban centres and fortifications. I think it is telling that the Bulgarians still had a large population after so many years of Ottoman rule as well. But there would definetly be a big Greek/Roman population living in the Urban Centres and Rumelia after a few centuries.
@@michaelpsellos2560 If we controlled Bulgaria for a thousand years they would have been long assimilated
And then I woke up 😔
I do wonder if the Eastern Romans would be interested in the Caucasus? Or would there be a strong and united Kingdom of Georgia between them and Russia?
If the Byzantine Empire survived into the modern day, then we'd basically have a European equivalent of the United States.
Maybe use video clips in your content, as well as pictures. It can give a clearer visual representation in some cases and seems more professional. Also, your voice is a bit quiet (unnatural if that makes sense?), almost like you're trying to be discreet. Maybe speak like you'd speak to a friend or sibling, or just speak louder in general. It will engage your audience more than you'd expect.
Good advice, apologies this comment will held for review for some reason so I didn’t see it until checking now. I will definitely be taking this advice on board.
My 1000th byz eu4 run
Relatable
I highly doubt they would conquer much past central Anatolia given how useless the Angelos were
As I said I agree, a civil war would have caused different and more competent leadership to arise.
Fourth crusade could still happen salong as they elect not to and in the succession crise in the empire and is form against Venice that they will be repayed.
1204 the most cursed day in history.
A Christian Turkey?
This is just beautiful
With adopting Gunpowder and Cannon first + navy, Egypt and the Levant would be recovered in teh 1600's. Easily. Also they had majority christian population until 1800s.
I reckon the Byzantines would still be set back by the Mongols more than you think. The Mongols would be motivated by the lure of rich cities.
What if the Crusader States never collapsed?
Wow, no Ottoman emipre!
So chritian turkey and greece unified? With maybe parts of bulgaria, serbia and albania
Ottoman Empire is gerad op
You could just as easily say that without the Ottomans, Bosnia and Herzegovina couldn't have been annexed by the Austrians, Archduke Franz Ferdinand therefore doesn't get assassinated by Serb nationalists, no WWI, no fascism or communism, no WWII, no broken Europe, no decolonisation.
The problem is that it's almost impossible to predict even the next six months after an event changes, let alone 800 years. I get that this is all a bit of historical fanfic and a bit of fun, though, so I'll try to be less of a pedant. If was still well researched and professionally executed :)
My argument was not about the same type of WWI or WWII occurring, but instead similar conflicts occurring and having similar results. My argument would be that the European balance of power wars were already occurring before 1204, and that the great acceleration of Europe will still occur. If these two things hold true, then there would inevitably be a European balance of power war using mechanised warfare like in WWI, and this would most likely have similar effects (Europeans starting to doubt themselves etc). Communism or a similar equivalent is likely to form out of a worker's rights movement, which is essentially guaranteed if an Industrial revolution occurs, at least in my view. Fascism or an equivalent far right movement would likely find roots after such a devastating conflict as well.
Essentially my argument revolves around the major factors causing WWI, WWII, fascism and communism in the long term still occurring, so it would make sense a similar conflict to those two would still occur in this timeline and cause similar results, and similar political movements to occur.
My argument is based on the idea that WWI was essentially inevitable regardless of Franz Ferdinand, but that's a specific view of history not all people agree with. Anyway I had fun writing this justification, was just trying to explain that this video was not meant as a fanfic kinda one, and I have justifications for why equivalents to WWI, communism etc would still occur. I appreciate the support as well.
There would also be no muslim ethnic groups forming in the Balkans, butterflying away OTL Bosniaks, and no Great Migrations of the Serbs, so ITTL the majority of the Bosnians would have likely been assimilated into the Croat identity while under the Kingdom of Hungary.
So in other words the Roman empire would still exist.
Safavids will not conquer Iran in this timeline the reason for this is that the safavid Dynasty was linked to Aq Qoyunlu ( White sheep ) , Aq Qoyunlu themselves were linked to the komenenos family as they royal married them , this happened when the komenenos family ruled the empire of Trabzond which will not exist in this timeline keep in mind that the Aq Qoyunlu managed to conquer persia due to Hasan Uzun " he wouldn't exist in this scenario as he is too linked to the komenenos "
But that won't Change the religion in persia as Iran in this timeline will remain under the rule of Qara Qoyunlu " Black sheep " they were Shia Muslims and Azeris.
No Kara Koyunlu didn’t conquer Persia, they owned Azerbaijan and Mesopotamia mostly, the many Timurid breakaway states ruled Persia before the Safavids came.
One question WTF Crussade attak Bulgara Empire and Bizantyne Empite .Maybe Crussade anti christian ?Bulgarian Powerful Fist Smah arogance Crusader and anti chistian coalicion in Odrin 1205
9:09 "The Byzantines had gotten along with the Armenians throughout history". So did the Ottomans before the the 19th Century, but then they became very intolerant.
This.
When I first learned about rhe 4th crusade, I revoked my Papacy Loyality Card.
Later I learned what christians did to library of Alexandria I left it for good.
Personally, I have nothing against believers, I just coudn't stay in line and suppprt it anymore. Blindly followimg orders isn't my thing.
not all christians, and all religions were like that back then
Here is a "what if?" What if Prince Henry Stuart had never swam across the Thames in 1612, & subsequently died of typhoid? There is so much tragedy in England and Ireland that unfolded all because some haughty young prince decided to swim across a polluted river. Namely, Charles who never wanted, and was never groomed for the crown becomes the next Stuart king of England, fails miserably because he is completely in over his head, is deposed & beheaded. Under the Protectorate led by Oliver Cromwell, the genocide against the Irish goes into high gear. And for all the tragedy that this generation has occurred, Parliament ends up recalling Charles II to be King in England. All this because some dumb kid had to show off & swim the Thames.
I've heard of the civil war and such, but I never knew about Prince Henry Stuart before. Quite a tragic story. Sometime in the near future an Anglo-Saxon alt history will be coming out, but it would definitely be interesting to cover a more recent English timeline, perhaps involving the civil war.
@@HistorysInfluence TY for noticing my request. I really do think it is one worth exploring.
The house of Osman could have risen since turks had setteled anatolia ever since manzikert so we could see them in classic roman imperial fasion overthrow the emperor by military force since for generations they had extremely compentant leadership at the start. So we could have seen a couple of muslim emperors from the house of osman
Eastern roman empire*
You are siding alot with byzantium when timur attacks anatolia the hungarans could and would attack then venetian and genoes would hider trade and conquerer islands the mongols and if baibars of mamulaks still acends he would attack anatolia and you are also forgetting turkic miagratons and unrest along with that russia has the manpower to invade thru the balkans
The communion of christians was actually likely because constantine XI was really looking to bring Christianity back together
How Europe made the Balkans poor, before they were even aware they were a thing.
However, they wouldn’t be called Byzantines. They would call themselves Roman.
Sometimes when I refer to Byzantium as Rome people say "Rome didn't exist in that period" :(
not necessarily by 1000 ad the byzantines were starting to use the name hellenes as well
it could go kinda like it did in our timeline
refering to ourselves mostly as romioi and using the word greek as secondary
until the 20th century when we start using the word greek over the word roman
also i think that perhaps the bulgarians wouldn't be assimilated that easily but by our time i think some would be assimilated and the rest would be way fewer than the greeks in thrace to be considered a problem
same probably with the turks
also in the colonialism think i don't think egypt and the levant would be separate from the empire because they are connected by land
i also think that the byzantine empire or Rhomania as we called it would have ended up as a greek ethnic state
perhaps with 2 small minorities, one bulgarian and one turkish that as time would go by would disapear by assimilation and other means
egypt and the levant wouldn't be majority greek (perhaps lebanon and parts of syria would)
the rest could regain independence just later? cause if the byzantines were to hold on to those regions
they would have to grow their population considerable and keep those places with lower population
managing 100 million people in egypt would be a challenge
but definetly the greeks today would be a much much larger ethnicity too
globaly there are 17-18 million greeks today
but if the forced assimilations of the 12th century didn't happen
and the genocides didn't happen either
perhaps the greeks would be at least 50 million today if not more taking in to account that it would be powerful economically, it would be very industrialized, a major player in global affairs ect ect
to be honest i think it would eventually annex serbia croatia and south italy too
but who knows
@@TheHunterOfYharnam I wish 1204 never happen 😢😢
in a better timeline islam wouldn’t have existed in the first place
What if Islam had never launched the 1st jihad and the prophet (pbuh) had never been born?
I will be making a "what if islam never occurred" timeline in the future
If the 4th never happened, majority of Asia Minor and the Balkans would be speaking Bulgarian right now.
No lol, this is very inaccurate.
bro is glazing bulgaria
Smartest Bulgarian nationalist
free greek konsantinupolis!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Sorry buddy but you are delusional. The target for the 4th Crusade was Constantinople from the very beginning despite that the Romans didn't knew it. The ambassador of the Pope was waving at the Venetian ships shouting "For the gold of the Romans!"
Nice video, looking forward to see more
Fourth crusade could still happen salong as they elect not to and in the succession crise in the empire and is form against Venice that they will be repayed.