Are The Hunting Horn Changes Good or Bad in Monster Hunter Rise? [1/2] - Heavy Wings
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- Опубліковано 10 чер 2024
- In this video we explore how the Hunting Horn was changed in Monster Hunter Rise, and we explore part of the response to the survey I published some time ago to determine
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Contents
0:00 - Intro
0:31 - The Hunting Horn, a brief moveset breakdown
4:25 - Rise of the Hunting Horn, the various changes
9:26 - The Monster Hunter Community's Response to the Hunting Horn changes, a study
10:34 - Question 1
12:20 - Question 2
13:50 - Part 2 Announcement
Sources/Information both used and unused when researching the video
www.monsterhunter.com/mha/en/...
steamcommunity.com/app/582010...
/ weapon_usage_statistic...
/ pc_weapon_popularity_r...
/ not_a_hunting_horn_mai...
www.polygon.com/22358607/mons...
• MHGU: Hunting Horn Tut...
• History of Monster Hun...
• MHGen Amatsu solo (Gui...
• MHRise | Hunting Horn ...
www.keengamer.com/articles/ne...
steamcommunity.com/app/582010...
gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/...
• Monster Hunter Rise - ...
www.fanbyte.com/trending/morn...
www.fanbyte.com/features/mons...
game8.co/games/Monster-Hunter...
gamewith.net/monsterhunter-ri... - Ігри
I just wish they didn't take away the old playstyle, which was methodical, complex, and satisfying. New HH is the closest weapon to just mashing now. I'm glad people like it. I just wish they didn't kill HH to do it. In the old games, I felt invincible with HH like I could just bully the monster as long as I knew when to do it. Now, it just kind of feels like hitting a wall until it dies. There isn't any weight behind the attacks, so it feels very unsatisfying.
I think above whether the changes are good or bad, it's more of the case that a weapon was wholy removed from the game, and a new one inserted in its place.
Imagine if Bow was never a thing, then from one game to the next your beloved LBG fundamentally changed into a Bow gameplay-wise, same weapon model but every gameplay mechanic is that of the Bow and everything about LBG ceases to exist. Ammo is now simplified into coatings (but still under the "Ammo" name) just like new HH "songs". Commonly used mechanics like "Rapid-fire" now work like DragonPiercer, instead of an attack you constantly use, it becomes a finisher "cooldown" attack but of course maintain the old name (compare Iceborne's HH spin to Rise's spin). So on and so forth. Like gaslighting the community into thinking it's the same weapon despite the obvious massive changes.
To me it's a disaster based on that alone. Just because the team has been SO good in changing weapons in the past. The GS going from no charging at all, to charing hit&run style, to tackle-charging in 5th gen, while still allowing all previous styles. Same for LS, going from a GS clone, to a single power-up bar, to expanding into multiple lvls of the bar, into introducing Iai styles and finishers in 5th, again you could completely ignore Iai and play it in its old style. Same for Gunlance, which had MAJOR new moves and improved combo strings starting with MHP3rd (grond slam, quick reload, etc), but the original core was still there. I could go on and on, DB, SnS, IG fun additions/changes along the way. HH is the first where they went full stop, murder, and redo style, especially painful when Iceborne's version was the best yet and only needed small changes to avoid corner-hooting. It just needed a couple steps forward from that iteration, mayhaps using some MHGU's style into the basic moveset, but they just shot it instead.
I agree with you wholeheartedly I am having such a hard time finding a weapon in rise that I enjoy playing even close to as much hh it’s really the only weapon I’ve played since I started hunting in portable 3rd
Ngl the response to question 2 made me a little mad for a second. I dont know, I just feel like a weapon should not be reworked just because of low player count. HH has its niche, and that's the keyword. Niche. A small niche that might turn a lot of players away, but those who stick with it realize how fucking awesome the weapon actually is. I hate how Capcom reworked the weapon to make it appealing to more players when they didnt need to.
I gotta admit, I dont have much experience with rise HH. It could be amazing, and I think it probably is, but it just isnt the experience I'm looking for. It's not HH, its rise HH. Same name, different weapon. It doesnt feel like an evolution of the weapon that I loved using in Iceborne. It just feels like a different weapon. It's like if you had your main straight up removed, and now you have to pick a different weapon. Sure, the other weapons are all great, but you picked your main in particular for a reason. But now it's gone. No hate towards rise HH enjoyers. Just my twenty cents.
Feel the same way. If every weapon is going to be revamped to appeal to people who never liked it in the first place then I'll probably start looking elsewhere.
I’m glad i’m not the only one angry at that response.
I had a lot of issues with Monster Hunter World on the whole, but that game absolutely nailed Hunting Horn. The changes made in World were the perfect mix of complexity and ease of use, both lowering the skill floor and raising the skill ceiling at the same time. It was awesome, and I was really sad when I discovered that Rise made the weapon so simple I never even had to look for song openings.
World HH followed on the steps of MHOnline HH, which is when I started to main it; the change was subtle but very nice, adding a slight movement while playing recitals.
Rise HH has its charm but is missing the repositioning required all the time to maximise damage output and buffs uptime, arguably things that aren't needed until the latest Apex Emergency quests to be honest.
While world horn is a great touch up while remaining true to hunting horn, id honestly say GU nailed horn above all else
The different styles for horn gave very different but unique openings for recitals that made it easier to get off massive note strings or recitals while even further elevating the skill ceiling for the weapon
GUs best change for horn though, and probably the best change for it in the series aside feom the changes from gen 2, would have to be double notes hands down.
As a HH main that fell in love with it since FU and P3rd due how you had to have a bit of brain to play it If anything I'd say World is exactly what led to these changes; limiting the amount of songs to nothing but attack, defence and health regen and changing it from a playstyle about well positioning, timing and commitment due those long animations to just encouraging going full on unga bunga spamming echo wave and positioning being less important thanks to mantles and being able to move during songs notes as well as "cancelling" out of almost everything that's why is a bad iteration of it if you asked me, is fun sure but not what HH was about like the guy above said GU really nailed the HH experience mostly due the variation in ways to play with it and the huge amount of songs that were beneficial to the party in so many ways and if you so preferred you also were able to go full unga bunga with valor or adept but wasn't limited to just that.
I ran a nightcloak malfestio HH with alchemy on top of some skills to boost damage and hunter art time and was hilarious how easier G rank hunts went since having almost perma HP regen and constant monster flinching is something busted but not many would like to learn to do with their weapon squeezing all potential out of it and just rather smash X or A until thing dies.
When 4% uses a weapon in Iceborne, it clearly isnt well designed, objectively
@@Pendji popularity speaks nothing as to how well designed a weapon is
Correlation and causation are different things
Support style things in all games are by far and away the least played choices, yet most support choices in games are well balanced and often the beat choices
People at the simplest level enjoy doing all heavy lifting in their games and smacking shit the most, support style options are just at a disadvantage due to that just for not being what most people want to play
Bow is one of the most popular weapons in rise yet i could argue its the worst designed weapon in the game
I'll simplify the charge blade as an example:
- Phials never need to be loaded
- Phials fill as you attack and automatically charge your sword and shield when they are full
- Overcharging and weapon bounce are gone
- Charge resets once you use saed
With this I'm pretty sure the majority of old cb users are not gonna be happy about the changes while newer players will find it a lot more appealing to pick up and play. It's a small change but it completely ruins the depth of the weapon and turns it into another switch axe.
This is what happened to the new hunting horn, it's a hammer that buffs without much effort.
this is a great perspective
Nope, firstly because the weapon not only has some complexity but also has been simplified in Rise a lot, but mostly because the playerbase that play the weapon is super solid, so they don't need to change it a lot for people to actually use it.
Hunting Horn situation was completely different I explained it in other answer in this video.
Now if you look at the Charge Blade more specifically you will realize some of those changes have already been made with the Silkbind moves, you instantly charge the phials and can discharge them, the bounce has been "removed" if your blade is enhanced (don't even need mind's eye), and since a long time ago the shield doesn't discharge after you use SAED...
The Hunting Horn is quite different from the Hammer, it doesn't have as much options on combos as Hammer or reach in specific situations the Hammer is made for, if you thing Horn is almost the same as Hammer I don't know what else to say you.
I played chargeblade in both GU and World before Rise, and I'll tell you rn I prefer Rise charheblade above all of them.
Apart from the much better weapon mechanics, you even get an alternative Spinning Axe (Pizza cutter) weapon art that can be used for a completely different play style. The wirebug move that acts as a shield and gives you full phials also opens up a ton of attack possibilities since the wirebug move combos into almost everything.
@@kingditto5149 you smokin balls if u enjoy the rise CB
@@kingditto5149 Your absolutely mad if you prefer rise CB to world but it is better than GU I agree, GU CB was butchered completely
In regards to the Greatsword, the main problem with "just going back to the old playstyle" is that a lot of the weapon's damage output (and therefore stagger potential) is now backloaded into the TCS. Sure, you can still just use draw attacks and the occasional supercharge, but your hunt times are going to increase by a significant margin because you're locking yourself out of most of the weapon's moveset. This problem is further exacerbated by the massive nerf to crit draw, essentially forcing Greatsword into the tackle bunga meta. You could play Longsword without any counters or wirebug attacks too, but that wouldn't be very fun would it?
It's the reverse for hammer in rise. On this one you have to get off as many impact craters as possible since it brings in 70% of your damage. On top of this they nerfed the motion values and removed the damage buff they gave in world with the charge and the worst is they made roll canceling many moves much slower. Slope aerial moves also cannot be aimed properly and slope sliding literally locks you in animation for 2 seconds before you can exit it if you are unlucky enough to find a random slope while charging.
It's literally the only weapon that got SLOWER instead of faster.
@@DTPandemonium Compared to World, charge blade is also slower when (Forget the real names) doing Store-Phials when not actually having any Charge available to store. Theres a slight delay animation not present in World. Also (while it isn't animation speed, but distance), the roll distances for CB are much shorter, so you're moving around unsheathed with CB a lot slower now.
So true, for someone like me who have played and liked longsword in FU, P3, 3G, XX, the longsword in Iceborne and base game Rise has not been very great. I like the new counters and I don't mind the nerfs with the flashing spirit gauge state, but I don't like being forced to perform helm breakers. You are just going to be labeled as "unskilled" by other hunters online for not using it in favor of other less risky moves like the spirit slash combo in Iceborne or the sakura slash in Rise. This is just unhealthy. Spirit slash combo is much safer and you don't need to increase the color to red again and sakura slash is just great to use since it can be used to dodge attacks while still dealing damage if you at least hit the monster once.
@@DTPandemonium well atleast we dont have to spamm Impact Crater anymore...
If you keep Impact Burst up through 80% of the hunt and land a few more Charged Brutal Big Bangs, then you actually outdamage Impact Crater!
Just gotta land 3 CBBBs (while IB is up) where youd otherwise land 1 full Impact Crater...
Not only is this way more reliable than IC spamm, it also allows you to have 1 wirebug for "Keeping Sway" wich is very handi.
Its also more Comfortable and comes closer to Worlds Hammer with Impact Burst basically just being Powercharge (allthough it has a time limit instead of reverting when hit/putting the weapon away).
I will say that crit draw greatsword is most definitely viable when using frostcraft. Frostcraft may come to Sunbreak with the release of Velkhana soon, so that will be interesting. The old school greatsword crit draw style was certainly viable in Iceborne with the use of frostcraft, but it’s not technically optimal, TCS is better
My problem with Rise's Hunting Horn is not the song mechanic. It's the normal attacks. I'm completely indifferent to the changes to the song mechanic, though I am disappointed by the lack of song variety.
Old Hunting Horn was unique among blademaster weapons in that its normal attacks had no fixed combos. Every attack ("attack", not "input") could combo into any other attack with only two restrictions in Iceborne: (1) you can't combo an attack into the same attack and (2) you can't use Hilt Stab or Echo Attack from idle. That's it. Additionally, each of the eight normal attacks in Iceborne behaved in a way unique from the others that give each attack a purpose outside of being "the next attack in the combo". For example, the Left and Right Swing are diagonal attacks that can hit around blocking body parts, the Overhead Smash always hits the head if it is in range regardless of what body part the hit box first collides with, and the Hilt Stab is a fast attack that can put any note of your choice on the staff. Even if you don't engage with the song mechanic at all, the weapon has a lot of nuance and gives the player a large amount of control.
Rise's Hunting Horn introduces fixed combos and, because of this, most of the weapon's nine normal attacks are now largely interchangeable with each other because the player no longer as the option to pick from their entire arsenal at all times, being limited to only three combo options after each attack instead of seven. (And Backward Strike, the one attack that is still unique, can no longer be used in the middle of a combo because of its uniqueness.) The uniqueness of each individual attack is gone, and there is no longer much reason to care which attack comes out next as long as it plays the note you're looking for. And even if you do care which attack comes out next, remembering which attacks combo into what is a nightmare with the mess that is the new Hunting Horn's combo chart, whereas for other weapons, you typically only have to remember your X combo, your A combo, and where you can jump between them.
To Rise's credit, though, the new recital animations are way better, and the invincibility from the standard performance animation is a huge benefit to the weapon in terms of positioning and survivability. I just wish that they didn't have to gut the weapon's normal attack mechanics to give us those upgrades.
Wish I had found the survey earlier. I enjoy Old-HH and Rise-HH, but for different reasons. I'm still disappointed the weapon I loved since 3U is gone in Rise. Rise-HH is HH in name only. I can appreciate Rise-HH for its simplicity, but the satisfying complex buffing playstyle niche of Old-HH is gone. So what if it was the least used weapon? If they wanted to make HH more appealing they should've just raised some of its inherent stats. Legit Iceborne HH with GU double notes would be my ideal HH. Rise-HH feels more like a blunt longsword.
Exactly my thinking.
The thing even has the Spirit Combo now.
Everyone keep saying is light hammer but none of HH attacks look remotely like Hammer's except for the slam and golf swipe, but the draw (former draw) attack is 1/1 LS's draw.
It's what allowed me to get into the weapon in the first place (i am a LS and HH main) because it was the only weapon that had somewhat similar attacks to the ones that I was used to use, but this is too much.
Agreed 💯
Blunt longsword sounds good tbh
the base stats for the weapons are generally the issue with most weapons. weapons like lance, gunlance, and even charge blade were nerfed in rise while other weapons received multiple unneeded buffs.
@@LucasTigy2 lance wasn't nerfed in rise tho? have you seen the kill times speedrunners are getting?
As someone who played HH prior to rise, I feel like song management isnt as huge a hurdle to get over when learning to play the weapon so much as the long animation commitments you needed to sit through to play songs. It's a definitely a skill you learn through playing, but its a turn off and kept me from touching it in 4U. Prior to Rise, there were changes made to make song building and playing more comfortable: GU had the double note system that rewarded aggressive play and lessened the amount of time spent playing buffs manually. World made song management and recitals less punishing by letting you roll out of recitals and massively buffed their strength on top, as well as letting you choose which songs to play and being able to hilt stab with any note to make song building even faster. Rise just needed to combine both of these together along with the new attacks, neutral draw, and i-frame recital and they would have hit it out of the park.
Instead we have a weird mix of moves that are pretty good (i-frame recital and crush are excellent) and absolute trash ones (double spin and melodic slap) along with nerfed movement speed...for some reason? Buffs like earplugs are totally pointless now that every weapon has a way to ignore roars, and many of the other negative statues like tremor and wind pressure do basically nothing in Rise. It lost mechanics, it lost moves, it lost songs, and the songs it DOES have outside of Attack/Affinity/Defense/Healing lack the potency they once carried. HH needs all it can get so why did it lose almost everything while LS keeps everything and gets buffed massively?
this is a great point
Whoah, the nerf to movement speed wasn't just my imagination? I guess it was to compensate for everything else being fast but it felt so off. I mained HH throughout GU and World, and I think learning how songs work is essentially the skill floor of the weapon, the basic thing to get used to so you're not playing a longer, weaker hammer. But yeah, the true test of skill was soloing difficult monsters, since you have to find time to reapply buffs mid-fight, and you can't rely on teammates to draw aggro. Double notes are good but iirc they nerfed recitals to compensate right? If double notes, Earthshaker, neutral draw and even more complex songs than in World were added to IB's Horn, it'd be my dream weapon. The real tragedy is that our MV's were nerfed due to demo runs and LS kept all its power.
My problem with old HH was that I could never remember the songs other than the universal "Self-Improvement" song, so I had to stop and check the list every minute or so. In Rise, they not only made them easier to remember, but put them on-screen as part of the UI so you didn't have to anyway.
In regard to question 2, I feel additions are far better than a rework. I’m a Lance main (aka, least popular weapon) but I love Lance for being Lance. I fear that complete reworks will always have the issue of alienating those who love the weapon to get more people to play with the “shiny new toy”, which seems like the opposite of what should happen.
An updated weapon should make the mains ecstatic and everyone else happy, not everyone else hyped and the mains left in a bitter-sweet limbo. It should solve the issues that stand in the way of the weapon rather than abandoning ship.
Finally there’s the idea that just because something is unpopular doesn’t mean it’s bad, it’s just more niche. For example, pineapple on pizza isn’t very popular, but the people who like it love it and wouldn’t want it changed just so more people are willing to take a bite.
I completally agree with everything you said, being an HH main (that still uses Rise version because coping, though I'm against all the rework)... Except for the example you used.
Pinapple pizza is not good full stop.
It sucks and I won't accept any other opinion.
This is something I agree with, but I personally think some weapons need a fundamental change in how the function as a whole. Gunlance, for example, needs a complete rework on shelling. Insect Glaive should focus more on the Glaive and aerial combat instead of the kinsect. That being said, basically every weapon is great as is. There is no real issue with the moveset or playstyles. The issues belong to damage output forcing people to play weapons in specific ways. Gunlance has been limited to basically full burst or slaplance, and Insect Glaive is stuck on the ground. We already have fine weapons as they are now, but changing core ideas of these two weapons specifically should take priority
@@paullucas7504 though I wouldn’t say they need a complete rework (I play both of those weapons and enjoy them quite a bit), gunlance and Glaive could certainly use their other play styles being more viable. I wouldn’t buff aerial Glaive too much though since being in the air is extremely safe and can trivialize a lot of monsters, so aerial being too good could end up detaching players from the hunt.
Ps. If you want some good gunlance knowledge/takes (not saying yours isn’t good) you should check out CaoSlayer. His comparison between ice borne and rose gunlance in particular is very insightful.
i play both the gunlance and hunting horn a lot i agree with this. the rework to the hunting horn just makes it a mashy weapon now, moveset also feels a bit worse. but the note playing is the biggest pain. in older games the skill curve felt great and picking horns for their songs was fun. I loved doing double 140 apex rajang quests with the chamelos horn for the buffs to teammates making carts a thing of the past, while still keeping up and getting kos and landing encores on the monkey's face. now its like... spam moves and forget about the note aspect because by the time you care you got a trio up to play all of them. if they reworked the gunlance i'd be upset. heck generations heat gauge annoyed me since I loved the ability to just spam my shells without a care at times but it made be have to micro manage attacks and shelling and then wyvern fire to lock the gauge which in a way hurt builds that used artillery because the gauge would reset faster. or at least i swore it did. worst thing they could and would likely do is make a hybrid of the two and turn into a switch weapon of sorts where both elements of the weapons are detracted at times.
I feel like reworks are a dangerous idea. You have to be REALLY careful to not kill the identity of the weapon. The Rise HH just did that. Horn used to be this elegant weapon where the player can dance around the monster like it's no big deal. That takes tremendous amount of skill, experience, and understanding of the weapon's nuances. With Rise, anyone can just pick up a horn, mash buttons, and succeed. It's just not the same thing. It went from a specialized weapon, to just another button masher.
People who like the new HH are people who weren’t a big fan of it in previous titles. This comes with the secondary effect of alienating previous HH mains. You don’t completely rework a weapon just because there aren’t a lot of people playing it. You *improve* on the base moveset. Imagine if your main got completely reworked in MH6 because some people didn’t like it. You’d be pissed right? Icebourne HH was almost perfect, it could’ve used a buff to a few of its motion values but otherwise i had no complaints. After being a HH main since GU, meaning i actually the spent time to learn how to maximize damage and songs with it, i no longer use HH. The lack of songs, plus the trivialization of the weapon’s combat has pushed me away. HH combat in previous games was very similar to GS combat. You had to know the monster’s moves to know when to throw an optimal attack while also playing songs. Now you just press a button twice in a row or ZR once. There’s no uniqueness to the combat flow. It’s the same ZR and A combo until the monster trips or gets stunned and then you do Infernal Melody or Earth Shaker. Im glad i have SnS as a secondary because I wouldn’t be playing Rise if not.
I started out with the HH but switched over to Gunlance (going from no damage to no damage...) because the new HH just feels like a musical hammer. Only four songs is ridiculous. Can understand why old HH players feel the way they do.
Only having 4 songs isn’t the bad apart about it the problem is no recitals and no encores at least to me it felt so good when you’d land a sick combo with those it’s why it was the most fun to me it was my favorite weapon in all of video gaming because nothing really played like it and rise made it feel like every other video game weapon ever
If they were to change the weapon so much as to it seeming as a different weapon, could they not have kept the hunting horn prior to rise and made a new weapon class? While hunting horn's overhaul does not personally make me feel loss, I would be in great concern if overhaul of this fashion for other underused weapons of are on the way.
People will then move over to the new weapon and further make HH underused/useless especially if they kept it the same.
I agree, it has become an entirely different weapon in core playstyle. If they make it into 2 different weapon, those who enjoy the old HH wouldn't felt left out.
@@dallasmccall6667 I don't think that's such a bad thing though. Horn players use it because they like it, and I think they understand that their weapon's support-oriented play style will be naturally unpopular. I don't think the right fix is to alienate those who already love it in the first place by completely changing their weapon.
nah, making an entire new weapon class is a completely different demon, it involves way more than just a kit change, would take much longer and they wouldn't be able to fit it with the already tight schedule they had for rise
@@dallasmccall6667 ok so?
I do wish that they had implemented a Switch Skill to turn HH back to the way it was in World, since there are Switch Skills and all. It feels like a missed opportunity. Rise HH is definitely easier to get into, and is very fun with the flashiness of it, but it's missing the OOMF that World HH had.
I was coming to your channel to try to participate in the survey but I guess I'm to late. That said, I'll leave some of my thoughts about the HH here.
I play and love the HH in World and in GU. When I saw Rise HH showcase I was super excited by the idea of Iceborne's song queuing mechanic and spins being coupled with the stylish animations of Valor style recitals from GU. Then the demo came and I found a husk of a weapon. Playing HH in Rise is so mindless that I can't enjoy the weapon at all. It seems great lengths were taken to make new attack animations so that attacks flow from one to another beautifully, but none of that matters. All you see is a loop of A then ZR repeated constantly after attack buffs have been played. And those attack buffs are as simple as press the same button twice. Old HH was about finding unique combo paths to maintain the songs specific to your horn.
Iceborne was amazing as it allowed you to queue and play multiple songs at once and required skill/knowledge about how many songs you could safely play at any given time.
GU had the double note system which rewarded players who actively fought a monster while queuing a song.
The soul of HH was the recital. Lining up your notes and then smashing your song across a monster's face is HH. Playing one note in an animation that last less than a second is nothing more than making a noise. That's not music.
In Rise, HH really is just a reject hammer and I dispise it.
thank you! that's exactly it. I had the exact same experience and impressions. and eventually the same problems.
though it reminds more of a blunt and less interesting longsword more than anything.
Unfortunately in order to start work on this video and Part 2 I did have to close the survey, since I can't start writing about statistics with responses still coming in.
If I ever do another project with involving a survey I'll leave it up for longer though.
@@HeavyWings I wasn't expecting to be included in the video at this point. I just left my comment to act as an additional opinion to the one's you'll be presenting in the next video. It's my own fault for missing the survey
@@GoldenXShark22 I see a lot of people comparing it to the LS and I can somewhat see it. Both are relatively fast hitting and have the potential for bust DPS that is ridiculously high by using their silkbind attacks. Plus the both have built in safety nets that serve as get out of jail free cards. LS with its 3 different counters and the HH with the new recital animation that gives i-frames
I will save my major opinions until I see what you say in the next video (as I gave lengthy opinions there) but as a horn main since my first game (4U) I really hated the changes in Rise after the near perfect horn we had in Iceborne
I just miss the precision of the old attack animations. Despite its size, fighting with the HH felt like you were use a scalpel and dissecting the monster in a very deliberate fashion.
The reason I Don’t like new HH. Is the lack of songs. Not only that we have less song per horn. There are less song in general.
And instead of feeling like bad ass musician who play a combination of note. I feel like a 2 year old kid who just smash the piano randomly to make sound.
The new move set is nice. It’s more fluid and seamless than ever. But I just want my songs back. :(
Also thank you for making a video about my favorite weapon. I already smash that subs button :)
You hit the nail on the head in the video. With old Hunting Horn, the skill ceiling was high; your decision making, positioning for recitals/encores, ability to maintain buffs and do damage all at the same time for me made the weapon super interesting. Your HH had a wide arsenal of songs available to it, each with unique button combinations to perform. It was such a unique weapon and I felt like I had unlimited potential when using it. It was also fun seeing how your songs would change going into high rank.
Whilst Rise HH adds some cool stuff (the new attacks in the base kit, the silkbinds are interesting) it does so at the cost of lowering the skill ceiling and removing the identity of the weapon; for me the trade-off isn’t worth it. The songs, which were a core part of the weapon, feel entirely secondary, passive and require little/no thought. Whilst it’s great that its brought more players to the horn, why must it do so at the cost of complexity and its identity? To be honest, the changes are so drastic it could’ve been a new weapon, that would’ve been more interesting; you have two utility-focused weapons with tradeoffs: more damage for weaker utility. Now, the HH just feels like a Hammer which does buffs, and whilst I enjoy knocking out monsters with HH, it’s more satisfying with a Hammer, so I guess I’ll just go play Hammer lol
I find it hard to believe that the game’s director is a HH main and is the one that came up with this new HH, it seems contradictory. If you love the HH and main it how it is, why would you literally turn it into something completely different?
To make it easier for people so it might see more play
@@soulreaver6546 it's a support weapon so logically its a least of weapon of choice in the game.now it just "stand still,imma dance" kind of stuff while in the previous games,you're actually need to have skills to use them(buffing and dealing damage at the same time)
I feel like the changes in Rise made HH less unique and made it feel like a hammer that buffs occasionally instead of an instrument.
More like impact damage Longsword.
The draw attack (former draw) is 1/1 LS' and the golf swing has the same AOE as the first hit of the Spirit Combo.
And in Rise it even has the Spirit Combo.
Rise HH is so far from being a hammer that buffs. More like DB, or LS, that buffs.
I don't recall longsword KO'ing monsters
@@Mik-kv8xx
And I don't recall Hammer having a gauge that fills after every attack.
@@yurei4414 still more similar to the hammer
To add more complexity to the weapon, they could create different recital depending on the situation.
I liked World HH because it was fun you could move while playing songs, to evade or get closer to the monster.
Now, recital is just a standing still multi hit combo, that doesn't require much positioning skill. I would introduce different recitals depending on the way you move the left stick before playing it, like in world.
They could even introduce different recital depending on the order you played the different notes, one for dps, one for counter, one to apply status ecc.
this is a great idea
I know I’m seriously late but I’m on PS5 so I didn’t get access to Rise until January ‘23. I started MH with MHU3 on the Wii U and became a HH main in World. I really dislike the HH changes in Rise. I miss the Encores most, and then probably the hilt stab. I miss lining songs up and playing them, the planning of it. I switched from HH to CB after about 25 hunts in Rise. Rise HH is just so dumbed down, but I’ve had tons of fun with the CB, so that’s a plus.
Great video btw. I enjoyed Part 2 as well. This is an interesting topic and you went above and beyond. Big Ups! Subbed.
The fact that the buff are simplyfied are disgusting.
As a MHW HH half main, sadge to see theres no harder weapon left.
Hey man! I genuinely had a fun time answering your questions on the survey and it's amazing that you would interact with your fans and subscribers like this. Can't wait for part two, keep up the good work!
looking forward to part 2! Another excelleng, well formatted video :)
I think World solved a huge problem with the horn with the song queue mechanic and the hilt stab reducing the downtime of playing all your songs massively, the only thing it needed was a way of dealing damage on knockdown being a blunt weapon but Iceborne came and fixed that problem with the echo attack and echo waves, then it just straight up became one of the most hidden op weapons in the game, but I feel the reason nobody played it was because the stigma of it being a "support" weapon had rooted too deeply within the community.
I'm conflicted about the HH changes.
I loved the fast paced movement overall, simplicity to build notes and the added i-frames; this last one was my favorite aspect of Rise's HH, I disliked how the rest of the weapons had several defensive methods to avoid, block or counter monsters attacks, but the HH had none, it became so unbalanced specially in multiplayer where the stun threshold is higher. The added i-frames with the zR attack in Performance mode and one of the wirebug attacks that launches you forward to play a melody combo made the HH combat smooth as butter and ultimately fun.
However, I also disliked the overall simplicity of the HH, feels like positioning isn't that important now. I've also felt like some attacks lacked impact because attacks are faster, so its stun properties were reduced. I also hated how the buffs lasts for like 10 seconds, you are always pressed to keep buffing yourself and the team instead of focusing on smacking the monster's head after applying buffs like in the older games.
So I liked the weapon changes, but I also feel like it has lost its identity. It's still kinda fun, but I miss the complexity of the weapon from the past games.
Lance's problem is that it has drawbacks and issues that haven't been adressed in Rise or have been implemented in Rise.
Monsters generaly move faster and, most importantly, get to position themselves further away from you and/or in an akward position Lance isn't able to capitalize on.
The charged sweep is a nice source of damage for Lance but it really breaks up the pace/rhythm which is one of the Lance's core aspects. It would be nice if we could use Focus to greatly reduce the sweep's charge time but this will also bring another problem.
Lance in Rise has the issue that it needs to get in certain skills if you want to perform effectively with the weapon and not feel like it hits like wet toilet papper: Guard, Guard Up and Offensive Guard.
Before theese three essencial skills weren't hard to get in Iceborne but in Rise theese skills got difficult to implement without sacrificing other skills in the process. Guard Up for some reason got separated into three levels, Guard still insists on beeing comprised of 5 levels even though levels 2 and 4 are useless and the deco for Guard is now a two slot/medium deco.
World's and Iceborne's health augment greatly benefited the Lance since now the chip damage from blocking can be dealt with as long as you keep on the offensive which is the main philosofy behing Lance, using your defense to keep on the offesive.
Like mentioned before, the monsters' positioning in Rise really hurts Lance players compared to other previous games. The normal charge takes a bit to start speeding up which worked in the previous games since you had a chance to get to the monster even without reaching the full boost but in Rise monsters react quicker which, combined with their positioning, makes the charge quite unreliable as a tool for reaching the monster. The Twin Vines silkbind is akward to apply, costs two wirebugs which hurts Lance even more and I find myself having the teather break more often than I expected. The switch skill that changes the normal charge into the shield rush would actually be great if it wasn't for the fact it has a limited travel range AND melts through your stamina which is essential for Lance to have (although it weirdly has a pretty high stun value so you can easily stun monsters). Spiral Thrust is the best movement tool Lance has in Rise and even then it has wonky control imput and it's supposed to be a counter that substitutes Anchor Rage. The normal shield dash with ZR+X is still really good thanks to the fact it has near to now start-up which makes it function as an insta-block which makes it fuction as a safer and better hop.
Anchor Rage's buff depending on the knockback the monster's attack is dumb, it punishes you for using the Guard skill, why? Make the buff work like in Generations and GenU where the buff granted depended on the strenght of the attack blocked, not the knockback it would provide.
Oh yeah, talking about Gen and GenU, what did they do to my boy Adept Guard (renamed in Rise as the switch skill Insta-Block)? It not only has a smaller counter window, the counter itself is so weak that the risk doesn't justify this pitiful reward.
And why does Minoto get to use the Corkscrew Jab but we don't?
I feel like we're getting a new switch skill for each weapon in Rise so I hope the new one for Lance is either changing the Twin Vines into the Corkscrew Jab or changing the Charged Sweep into beeing able to independently charge each poke to get Gen's and GenU's long multihitting poke and that if performed as the third poke it then combos back into the poke combo.
From my experience lance in Rise at first was really rough, in its base form I think the weapon sucks ass and isn't suited to the game it's in. The charge is near useless due to monsters being so agile an running so goddamn fast when changing areas (somehow even faster when near death?!). Anchor rage is just as boring as it gets, it's the most basic of counters you could ever think of. But each switch skill brings the weapon to new heights and isn't just very useful but also much more stylish. the shield charge may be short ranged but realistically with good movement you never have to close a bigger gap (and worst case scenario you could spiral thrust), and its stun potential and burst damage output makes it 10 times more useful than the regular charge (not to mention you can do it out of insta-guard which is super useful). Insta guard just feels super rewarding to hit and makes it so guard up isn't needed at all in your set, the counter isn't so strong that it becomes the focus but good enough so that when you use insta guard (which you should) it's a nice reward. Finally spiral thrust is awesome and not too hard to control once you get the hang of it, it brings with it the good damage that lance desperately needed in this game and is really fun to use. Just gem in guard 1 and offensive guard 3 in your set with all 3 switch skills and you're good for any monster in the game.
forgot to say that I think it's a good thing the charged slap isn't too central to the game style cuz lance should not be based on slaps but powerful thrusts, yet it's still useful in some situations which is good for diversity
I feel like a mix between GU and Iceborne's HH would be perfect. Keep the Iceborne moveset with all of the different recital/encore slams and the echo attack, but allow double notes on contact with the monster so it discourages corner horning
Nice video dude! Looking forward to part 2
Counterpoint to question 1's conclusion: The common thread between the two largest sectors is that they both liked pre-rise horn. 82.6% of responders liked pre-rise horn compared to 17.4 who didn't. This is compared to the 48% who liked Rise. To me, this means that people seem to like pre-rise horn more than rise horn.
Informative and professionally done. Love it
Man I wish I found this video topic sooner lol I'm pretty much a dedicated HH main since world and I have played every HH since it's debut. Very nice video and it's interesting to see the stats you found.
HH just feels less interesting now. There's less of a need to know what openings are best for what recitals and yeah it helps weed out corner horners, but jeez it feels like the skill floor is ridiculously low.
Plus I just really enjoyed the moveset and needing to actually know songs
As someone who has played allot of lance and gunlance, I think the problem is that the weapons aren't portrayed all that well in what the upper skill ceiling is like for either. I'd rather not have the MH team change them drastically like the hunting horn because I think a new perspective on what exists and some minor tweeks to certain aspects of the weapons would do all that is needed. Yes, they do have the best shields in the game - first being lance. But ideally you'll want to be doing the minimum amount of guard actions possible to keep yourself right by the monster. When your there consistently you'll be able to do consistent damage with consistent uptime (the pointy object hits the *same* spot every time) - you even get the extra wiggle room with gunlance shells which do the same damage irrespective of hitzones. Both are actually extremely aggressive in the right hands, but what you'll see in most trailers is someone crawling behind a shield in 90% of the footage or doing flashy stuff only in the case of the gunlance. It also doesn't help that when creating armor sets for either it's always costly and the game kind of fights against you in multiple instance. The Anchor Rage skill for lance actually does less damage the more guard you have because it's calculated based on how much knockback you would have taken if you got hit - so it will effectively become useless in Sunbreak when guard 5 will become mandatory in the endgame unless it's altered drastically. You could be mad and run 0 guard the entire game and I'd almost say it'd be worth it by mastering insta-block... but the move hardly does much in terms of it's own counter despite it being the hardest frame window to hit in the game (at least you can do almost any action out of it other than the "strong" counter). Gunlance, from what I can recall, suffers currently because of the shelling level of most of the final weapons we have for now are all one level below what others are capable of with no recourse on changing that yet (so if someone really cared about max deeps, there are far less options than maybe one and a half hands worth of options). I've also heard many players want a return to a least some of the buffs the weapon received in Iceborne like shelling damage - though I'm not as ardent about that point. TL:DR - I hope they don't attempt major changes on Lance/Gunlance because of Hunting Horns success recently because those weapons need just a little bit more proper coverage/changes to make them decently popular.
Part 2
ua-cam.com/video/dhH-nkHDuuA/v-deo.html
IMO what they did to HH is PERFECT, and I will explain why, mainly because keeping a core mechanic on a Weapon or anything that only 1% of population uses is stupid, PERIOD. Usually when you have an element in a game or almost any environment where it adds so little to the overall situation you get rid of it in favor of other things.
This happens a lot with some games like fighting games for instance, there are games that people gatekeep so hard to keep them "hardcore" that the enterprise only sell like 10k copy of the game in the lifespan whereas when they move toward something more massive (even at the cost of changing core mechanics) they reach more thank 500k of players.
Lance and Gunlance are not that bad, the numbers are still quite solid for a 14 weapons choice, but they already changed quite a bit the Lance in the last games as well.
If I were a Monster Hunter Dev member I would directly remove Hunting Horn in favor of other weapon or rework it as he did, and I think reworking it was the best and most gentle decision they could made.
@@Lanzetsu this is a great comment
Oh geez... I know for a fact I was one of the people that wrote way too much haha
Showcased or not, I hope I was thorough enough in my explanation at least and didn't drone on too much!
I may have gone on a rant at the idea of Gunlance being redesigned... Leave my niche boomstick alone!
@@Lanzetsu I also like the idea of reworking least used weapon and lower the skill floor so that it is easier to use, but not as extreme as to change it's core playstyle into something else that it is now an entirely new weapon. Sure, it is the most logical points in term of numbers, but it turn away those who really enjoyed the HH pre-rise playstyle.
As just someone who never uses HH but has seen HH mains in my hunts, I don't see it as a "support weapon", but rather, a specialist weapon. I feel like Horn mains use it BECAUSE it is the way it is. Kinda like loyalists in fighting games. And it's beautiful to watch them dance around the monster while playing music. That's fucking badass! In Rise, HH just doesn't have that aura anymore. It just looks like Hammer with *some* music. The identity of the weapon is completely lost with the changes.
In this survey i answered that i disliked pre rise but like rise HH. I don’t think that’s a good thing because i used to dislike it because it was slow and not very show-off-able but now with all the flashy breakdancing i find it much. My problem with that is that people who liked hunting horn previously probably don’t enjoy the fast paced hunting horn of rise and dont really have any alternative left because HH is such a unique weapon. If rise HH was like the other HH, players like me who like it because it is flashy would just to back to longsword or insect glaive or whatnot.
And that's fine. No need to take away what people liked about it in the first place. Every weapon's designed with a specific playstyle and one that's undeniably leave some players out, and it's absolutely alright imo. Niches are good and diversity is even more so
My ideal hh would be rise's moveset overhaul with GU's song building, recital, and encore system. I seriously don't understand why rise made combos with hh flow so well but then completely axe'd the system that made hh combos satisfying in the first place. Lining up a four note song with the super flashy combos in rise would've been so cool
I disagree another part of old hunting horn is the way you attacks work. In old hunting horn you could do almost every single attack anytime it's not locked behind combos. So you would just dance around their head and do any hit you needed. This system also allows for the old song system too work well as you could play any combination of hits.
I have been a HH main since MH3U 4U GU and now Rise. I could not experience Iceborne HH due to not having a PC or console. Old HH ALWAYS will be my favorite and most enjoyable weapon of the 14 types. When I used HH in Rise for the first time it was really fun and was not upset with the new direction they decided to go with. This is the first time a weapon in monster hunter has been completely revamped into something new. With that in mind I wanted to used Rise HH as much as possible before seeing if I would still have fun with it just like demo. Now I can say for sure that Rise HH was nice, but would be lying if I don’t mention that the weapon is way too simplistic and somewhat brain dead due to how the buffs work now.
All you have to do now is pretty much mash the same three buttons, build up the meter use magnificent trio and that’s it. Rise HH has zero learning curve and not that many ways to show some kind of skill, mastery or understanding of weapon. Now it is nothing more than just a weapon anyone can pick up and play without any need for basic fundamentals or challenge. For me personally it is not necessarily a bad change since this was their goal for this New HH but, it is kinda unfortunate for the OG HH mains who have put in a lot of time, commitment and passion in-order to master it. Now for the question in this video I would have to say NO. Changing weapon just to get more people to play it is a very tricky situation and most times can ruined what made original version special or unique.
It seems like people that liked both versions of HH are the silent majority here, since it seems like I only read about either people that dropped HH in Rise or picked it up for the first time.
However, "try the HH" seems a bit too open. Actually played it agressively (the good old boop and doot) would also have been an incredibly interestening point, who played mostly support and who used it to buff up and went to town on monsters simultaneously.
I'm excited for what the written part of the survey will show, I hope you can make the followup video soon!
I’m part of the percentage that likes the Hunting Horn both before and in Rise. I main Lance and Hammer and my first Monster Hunter was MH3U, I also try to play all weapons till I feel like I have a good understanding of it. The HH in MH3 was a little too “slow” for me so I stuck with the Hammer in that game. But I’d always keep trying it out occasionally, only in MHW: Iceborne did I really start getting it.
Gameplay wise I always tried to play the HH to it’s complete potential by buffing while beating monsters (regardless of if I was doing well or not). I’m curious about the percentage increase in HH users in Rise, because I’m sure an amount of them might be people similar to me who liked the HH but were on the fence.
@@ZhouTie47 May I ask to what extend you ended up playing HH in Iceborne? I'm really curious about that.
I was drawn to the absolute wackyness that is HH, but I ended up having an absolute terrible experience for the first hunts before I overcame the honestly quite high entry hurdle to have fun with the weapon.
@@onkellumos9139 In Iceborne I specifically started focusing on and experimenting with the Bowguns and HH in the Guiding Lands. That way I was able to experiment freely without having any real pressure. I never got to the point where I felt comfortable to take a HH into an AT quest or against Alatreon and Fatalis (I did do some Safi fights though). My guild card also definitely shows my hesitancy to use the HH in actual quests. But i’d like to say that I’ve hunted almost every monster with the HH.
Personally it took me a long while to finally get the hang of being able to do the performances without getting constantly knocked out of it. I believe that my experience with the Hammer both colored and aided my time learning the HH overall. My one personal nitpick with the HH before Iceborne was the lack of a kind of “goal” with the HH after you get all your buffs up. Which I felt Iceborne fixed quite nicely with the new echo attacks/effects. I definitely go out of my way to try and get a full list of Impact Echo Waves que’d up so I can both perform and encore them on a knocked down/stunned monster’s face.
To me, a guy who beat freedom unite and world IB and played 3 base and 4U, the toughest part was getting the breaks while getting my buffs. Most of the time , fights where I will intentionally lose the quest to learn the monster openings and try where I can use combos to attack. Most of the time I relied on on GS skills to dish the combos and I loved the triangle circle ground slam when the horn had it. When world removed it, head breaks just where annoying less you used the short ranged claw (and it was far too few.) I haven’t played rise just yet. (Work and other games in the way) but I can’t wait to get my hands on this “new horn” as it sounds like the weapon is suited for me. I just hope the my dual blades and switch axe mains are not nerfed in a bad way.
I'm personally a huge fan of the Rise HH, but they really should've done a better job preserving the og playstyle with Echo mode. Like keeping the longer recitals and Encore buffs as a tradeoff for performance mode's easier gameplay.
I'll leave a response as I had not seen this survey before the video and as a long time Hunting Horn fan I want to share my insights. In terms of preference, I definitely prefer old hunting horn, but there are some aspects of the Rise version I do prefer, but not enough for me to prefer it to the old playstyle. When it came to the old weapon, it was the complexity in the songs and lining up songs with the attacks that made the weapon enjoyable, not to mention how weighty it was to wield, really selling the strength of the weapon. Iceborne really pushed this with the buffed encore swings and the echo notes, making hunting horn even more powerful, with my only real complaint being that hunting horn felt a bit too slow for the faster speed of World, and that it lacked the motion values to match the slow swing speeds. Rise fixed that last issue by having a completely new combo system, with all the new swings feeling weighty and providing a more interesting way to build up the song gauge.
The issue I had with th weapon came from the song system and the current best playstyle. The removal of the recital/encore (and no the breakdance spin doesn't count since its just for self improvement) really killed the intricacy of the weapon, and also made the combo system completely irrelevant, since you just need 2 of the same note to play the song, which gave no incentive for players to engage with the combos. What made this even worse was the recital move itself. A really powerful move with i-frames AND built up the infernal melody meter quickly made it overly centralizing, to the point that optimal play involved looping only 2 attacks over and over until you use a silkbind or need to play infernal melody. Hunting Horn speedruns went from being really interesting shows of depth to really boring alternations of 2 button presses. When even speedruns don't use the full kit of tools available it really feels like something was lost.
It's weird too because while a lot of hunting horn mains feel Rise's version is too light weight, I only feel that's true with the triple beat and then recital, as the combos themselves still feel like they have weight to their swings, if a bit sped up and maybe lacking impact, but that's true for all weapons, not just hunting horn.
If I were to make changes to the weapon in future games, I would keep the combo system Rise introduced but bring back the old song system, including encore and echo notes, and MAYBE just have the notes play faster so that you are not open for quite as long to encourage a more offensive playstyle, since being stuck in place for so long seemed to be the biggest hinderance besides memorising the songs, which displaying the song list already fixes.
I never played rise.
I decided to main HH in iceborne, I fell in love with the weapon playstyle. Today at lvl 999 with 2k uses my reaction to RiseHorn may be biased but I wouldn't play it in Rise. It lacks the exact aspect that make me in love with IceborneHorn, complexity.
Old-HH mains are like elitist problematic kids, we know that the weapon is weak and sluggish but we feel stupdly pround of being able to use it well.
The weapon isn't even weak tbh, it's just that mastering it is so hard that it is kind of hard to deal damage at first. But that's the reward behind it.
@@HeavyWings I would disagree with you. It's not that it's hard to deal damage. Its that most weapons have an option for dealing high amounts of damage quickly. Until iceborne, that option simply wasn't there for HH. I primarily used charge blade and the hardest thing for me to get used to when learning HH was the Rhythm. I had to go from planning these huge burst of damage and prepping for the next burst. To playing a style that was all about continuous and consistent damage, being much more intentional with the attacks I used. I found myself playing much more aggressive with the HH and yet getting hit less, dancing around monsters causing them to miss and making sure i was able to react to it. Each individual attack had a purpose. Building a song mid fight wasn't that difficult, but the fun was finding the proper moment to play those songs for big damage. Watching someone who understands the death dance is one of the most impressive things you can find in MHW. Rise simply eliminated the need to understand that dance. and IMO its the one game that will actively make you worst at the weapon in other iterations of the game and being good at the weapon in other games doesn't help you all that much here. It's weird.... its a good weapon, haven't heard anyone really say otherwise. It just killed the weapon for me. Side not: I miss starting off a mission by buffing the team. It was a moment for everyone to group up together. You start getting your songs together and as people are running off towards the monster, they stop and come back to wait for the buffs. We then ALL move towards the monster together. it was just another part of the preplanning that goes on and it felt like a unique moment where we acknowledged each other as a team.
as someone who's been maining horn for the majority of the time its been a weapon monster hunter and I would say this horn feels like an old friend, every horn has been different but they all have a certain feel. The rise horn still has that feel, its skill ceiling is still there, its animation commitments are still there. It took me more than a few hours in Rise to realize that its depth is still there (albeit less obtuse), and that any form of the older horns couldn't exist in rise as it's too quick, you'd never be able to play the song and do damage. They had a choice, either keep the songs and speed up the horn to be a fast weapon or condense the notes played and i think they made the right choice.
with the new speeds of the horn and the new speeds of the monster it still feels like the same ratio. I still find my self dancing alone when I mess up, or lining up head bonks as the monster flies by when i do it right. Just because you can button mash the Rise horn doesnt' mean you're doing well if you are button mashing, I find myself putting out 2 or 3 infernal melodies to every 1 compared to some other horn users in my hunts sometimes, there is plenty you can do to improve your horn play in Rise.
It makes sense that a horn main was in charge of the changes, the core of the horn is still there. It was never about the notes you played or even the buffs, it was about the dance you did as you bonked the monster and that dance is still there and still feels good. I feel like all weapons were simplified in rise and I feel like in future games there won't be as much simplifications. so I think this was a fine experiment in how much could you simplify the horn while keeping its identity and I honestly think Rise is the answer to that question for the horn
I'm afraid of what capcom would overhaul gunlance into, it really feels like they've never liked the weapon and anytime they give it something good there's always a monkey paw effect.
GU: Oh you get to have fun with all these different hunting styles, but if you have too much fun your heat gauge will overfill and you'll be locked out of a fairly large amount of your melee damage for 2 minutes.
MHWI: Ok so you have a relatively aggressive and functional moveset, now to do good damage with your shells you have to go find rocks, take some time to stick them in your weapon, then try to land a really awkward move on the monster, and if you miss you have to start all the way over (plus it wears off after only a few minutes, so you have to do this several times a hunt). What do you mean this isn't fun?
MHR: Ok, this moveset is actually so much fun to play with, everything just flows so nicely. Plus you get a move that buffs your shelling damage by 20%! Oh wait, shelling damage was nerfed by 20% from world to rise, so this is to only even things out, and the buff only lasts for 30ish seconds, and if you sheathe your weapon for any reason it goes away. Ok but at least wyvernfire has a really long guardpoint, thats super cool! However the cooldown is several minutes longer than previous games. But you have a move that reduces the cooldown! That costs two wirebugs, is completely unsafe to do and leaves you in a state where you're extremely vulnerable to wirefall combo'ing moves. Also you can't have the 20% shell buff move and wyvernfire cooldown reduction move at the same time, you aren't allowed fun.
Long story short, especially when it comes to gunlance, I don't trust capcom to deliver something fun, without also delivering an opposing awful mechanic. I would love to be wrong tho
i could probably send you a paragraph as well if you wanted, but here are a few points i feel were missed.
something that many don't seem to consider with the new HH is that they nerfed all of the songs as well. they probably did this because they are easier to play, but there is no more "XL" anything and the best you get is an "atk up large" from infernal melody which is on a "cooldown". some songs seem to still have their full power like "wind resistance", but many no longer give a strong benefit. the songs also need to be refreshed more often, but that could also be from the "horn maestro" skill being changed.
we also lost the song "flavors". each note color represented different types of buffs (red for offense, blue for defense, yellow for element, green for recovery, etc). this also helped you determine what kind of songs the horn would have based on the note combination. i suppose this is kinda of a minor gripe, but it means the instrument has less personality.
the combos now restrict some of the original useful moves to only be played from neutral and as the first move which restricts movement through those moves while simultaneously adding new flashy-but-pointless moves that are generally ignored for doing more damage to your sharpness with less damage to the monster.
the absolute worse offense though is probably just how much the HH flailing about will hinder your teammates. for a weapon that has been touted as a "support" weapon for so long, making the weapon anti-party by giving it so many moves that trip your teammates and fill they're screen with visual noise is not an ideal way to solve this stigma. a hunting horn was a very deliberate weapon before where i had complete control over what i needed to do, but rise HH is far more reckless and warrants apologies for the hinderance of my buffs
I started with world and always wanted to learn about HH but was too lazy to do it and then in rise i gave it a shot and played with it, i really love altough i really feel that the recital must be put back in some way, it is true that now you only think about having the three notes and just playing all of the buffs at the same time, i just wish that you could store the songs just like in rise and then you play them maintaining the simplified way that songs are now, just with the necessity of having to recite it, hell, that move's animation was one of the things that really made me wanna play HH in world.
I just thing we need a middle ground, even more now because there will be people that like this new style and changing it all over is going to make the same mess that we have now
This question is just about what I felt in the transition to World in general.
I tryed rise for like 2 months but I couldn't get into it, it didn't click with me like the other games there was no real story to get me into and it didn't challenge me (personally not that the game is easier just imo) like the other games do. And I honestly almost cried when I tried hh, it didn't feel changed, it was gutted. Nothing about it played or FELT the same. The hh felt like a hammer with support elements. It felt weighting and satisfying smashing heads in and then so satisfying pulling off songs mid fight and doing so much damage. In rise it just felt so light, like it had no weight and i didn't get the crunchy smashing feel lish with hammer that I crave. Idk the whole game is not for me and thats okay, but i cant forgive what they did to my boy
Assuming that MH6 will retain the HH overhaul from Rise, I’d like to hope that they’d add something to raise the skill ceiling for the weapon while still remaining accessible. Perhaps even a compromise between the two styles. Each Horn would have more than four songs again and you’d still need to play the notes in order for each song, but the swings would be faster like in Rise. You could store up to three songs like in World. Pressing ZR would do a quick performance that applies the song at the top of the list (no I-Frames on this one), while ZR + X/A/B would allow you to do a longer performance that would apply all of them at once and potentially lead to an encore. No more Infernal Melody, but the echo notes from Iceborne would return.
New fans could continue to play the weapon relatively easily, while older fans could play more strategically and wait for a big opening.
It's not that it's hard to deal damage. Its that most weapons have an option for dealing high amounts of damage quickly. Until iceborne, that option simply wasn't there for HH. I primarily used charge blade and the hardest thing for me to get used to when learning HH was the Rhythm. I had to go from planning these huge burst of damage and prepping for the next burst. To playing a style that was all about continuous and consistent damage, being much more intentional with the attacks I used. I found myself playing much more aggressive with the HH and yet getting hit less, dancing around monsters causing them to miss and making sure i was able to react to it. Each individual attack had a purpose. Building a song mid fight wasn't that difficult, but the fun was finding the proper moment to play those songs for big impact damage while leaving yourself enough time to dodge the next attack. Watching someone who understands the death dance is one of the most impressive things you can find in MHW. Rise simply eliminated the need to understand that dance. and IMO its the one game that will actively make you worst at the weapon in other iterations of the game and being good at the weapon in other games doesn't help you all that much here. It's weird.... its a good weapon, haven't heard anyone really say otherwise. It just killed the weapon for me. Side not: I miss starting off a mission by buffing the team. It was a moment for everyone to group up together. You start getting your songs together and as people are running off towards the monster, they stop and come back to wait for the buffs. We then ALL move towards the monster together. it was just another part of the preplanning that goes on and it felt like a unique moment where we acknowledged each other as a team.
Honestly Rise also butchered Longsword, they made it completally unplayable if you don't want to massacrate the monster in half a minute.
And being a person that only uses Longsword and Hunting Horn... I'm completally against it.
Don't tough lance, I litteraly never used it once, but please... Don't.
I have only one exception, though: Insect Glaive, because I see it as a broken bad game design in general, all the buff and kinsect add to the weapon is breaking the fight's pace and make you wait.
They should add nectar gathering as a possibility during normal attack combos and making kinsect more useful in battle (so that it's not only a for the buffs, it's part of the weapon itself).
Insect Glaive was my main when I started (i started with 4U) but bow I can't litteraly touch it anymore.
Agreed. Insect Glaive should have the post buff moveset and damage values as the base. Letting the kinsect gather essence for the other buffs like earplugs is a good idea, but Kinsect management is a chore whereas it should feel like a bonus. A kinsect is basically free elemental damage plus the cloud type. Not only that, you also have stun and cutting potential. However, needing to spend anywhere from 10-30 seconds every 2 minutes or so just to reapply the buffs is a nuisance. Most of the time I only get the red buff since you can do it quick and it's easy to get from a monster. This is not how this weapon should be played, but the design of the game and the weapon's functionality unfortunately promote this style of play.
It take literally 3 seconds to take buffs after world insect glaive. I think is one fastet phased weapon to play. I wait nothing when playing it.
Plus, in rise kinsect is part of the combo, and is used in every speedrun, is not just for buffs.
@@onyxsuccubus
IAI slash is basically a win button in this game.
Does a lot of damage, fills your spirit gauge, makes you immortal, the window is stupidly long, can be combo'd into the Spirit Combo for even more gauge, doesn't cost any wirebug, can easly be chained into Helmbreaker (wich is the attack that deals most damage of the weapon, wich is easier to use in Rise btw).
Even if you can't do counters effectively (wich I would question if you got brain damage from drugs or something if you can't in Rise) you can simply spam Sakura Slash that it's objectly broken in this game.
Not everyone is a sub 3 speedrunner, but you don't have to be one for getting good results.
You don't get sub 3, but sub 10, it's so hard man.
As someone who went from World HH to Mhgu HH to rise HH, I can say three things:
1.in mghu, play alchemy since basically no moves are taken away from playing that style
2. Focus on your most important buffs first then start sprinkling in the other ones
3. In rise, save up magnificent trio, infernal melody and earthshatterer until the monster is Knocked and then spam them
I'm subscribing because this was interesting. Also I love HH.
As a third fleeter who has mained HH since the beginning, I love the changes. I always felt the old world HH was a creative gem of a weapon concept, but felt overly clunky. So many attacks didn't flow into each other, and encoring mid fight was a sure fire way to get hit.
The Rise HH isn't as great as it could be, but I think it's a much more solid foundation that they can add complexity to with future installments.
Perhaps using performance after attacks would result in different animations, like it did pre-rise, or maybe make the back swing into more of a fade-slash (fade bash?) For repositioning in different directions. And I can't wait to see what interesting song effects they can come up with for Sunbreak
I think of old world HH as trying to play an orchestrated piece of music while a dragon attacks you. Very difficult, and the end result always feels sub optimal. I think of Rise HH more like capoeira, where the rhythm and action are playing off each other to make a fluid dance
It's a very simple dance right now, but little tweaks can go a long way, now that the whole moveset feels better
The beauty of old world hunting horn is that when you mastered it, it achieved that "dancing with the monster" feel. The skill ceiling was very high but that made hunting horn such a fulfilling weapon to play. I play every weapon type in the games since I started and it's the first game where I barely play hunting horn after spending hundreds of hours enjoying it before. The magic's kinda gone when positioning isn't important anymore and you don't need to plan our your combos according to songs, encores, stun thresholds etc
I think I've seen maybe around 10 at best HH users in 4 Ultimate and 0 HH users in GU, this is the first game I've seen more HH users and have even tried myself and liked it.
Then there's World HH, which had fluidity and orchestra attacks. Every attack we did could flow into a echo attacks then use echo wave when we had openings. Instead of recital being a sitting duck low dmg move like old games it became a good stun attack and good reward move in World. 3 songs stacked up also meant we can hear our juicy songs and not just some noise like rise HH. Only for a few changes that r good, they still slaughtered this wep's reputation.
I'd love to see you continue to these kinds of analyses in the future with other weapons. However, if you do, you would benefit greatly from playing some of the older games before hand. You keep talking about this change as a first, but it isn't even a first for Hunting Horn. The original play style of Hunting Horn from Dos was completely scrapped in favor of the system that was adopted for it in P3rd. In MHFU, the last game with Hunting Horn before MHP3rd, you didn't build up notes by attacking; you had to enter a recital mode and play the notes by hitting buttons to change the position of the horn.
I think the hunting horn is fantastic in Rise. It’s now my secondary weapon and I’ve been using it a lot when I take a break from switch axe. I always thought it seemed cool but was too complicated for my taste but I love it now. I can bonk monsters and still help buff the team
I haven't played much of rise but in general and objectively speaking for older games the HH is one of the slower and lowest dps causing weapons but it does offer unique utility due to the buffs but they can be substituted with consumables or skills BUT both of those are limited. HH can cut parts and relatively speaking it's one of the worst cutting weapons but it can also stun and exhaust monsters allowing for all the dps windows. With all this in mind it's a weapon that offers a lot of utility at the cost of some damage. So it depends on what you are looking for but most people would rather have optimal dps. The weapon guides in-game doesn't even tell you all the things you can do either.
Subjectively speaking it is definitely one of the harder weapons to master. On top of positioning and timings for each monster the user also has to be mindful of buff uptime/downtime, queuing and extra aggro from the monsters depending on the action. The weapon is slow so you need to be extra careful when preforming heavier attacks like the GS.
The coolest thing is being skilled enough to manage everything at once. There are also times when allies are out of range or spawning in so you have to redo songs and manage the buffs they get too. The HH also has a lot of moves tied to where you hold the movement stick. Unlike most games you can actually buff while attacking which is nice.
There are obscure mechanics like queuing up multiple songs at once in world, from a little test I did earlier I was able to queue up 3 songs in 5 attacks totaling 11 notes. Certain monster limbs get in the way of the head so I would also do an upwards swing with my back to the monster to avoid hitting their leg for example. And animation canceling. There are optimal ways to stock songs faster or in a way that causes more damage.
Personally I like the riskier and rewarding gameplay of older HH while the new easy and rewarding play-style doesn't feel as compelling to me. I'm also not a fan of "floaty" animations which the rise HH gives the feeling of, the other versions of the HH felt like an actual heavy weapon. I still like it but I prefer the older version of the weapon and specifically I like World's HH the most. Rise oversimplified the unique parts of the weapon and reworked the rest but I don't think it's a bad thing at all since it is more forgiving now to use and easier to get into but at the same time it lost most of its original identity aside from a few moves and weapon design.
If they wanted to make HH easier to use, there are other ways they could have done so, such as no longer having to maintain sharpness with whetstones.
This is an example of a very simple change that would have meant the player had one less thing to manage, and can focus on other things, like playing songs.
I actually got the hang of the HH in world at the end of it's update life cycle and man was i bummed out when the complex weapon I just started to love was gone in rise. It would be great if they could give us two HHs like how the bowguns have a light and heavy variant
While I found Rise HH really fun, going back to world and other iterations to try it out made me like and appreciate those versions more.
I think it would've just been better to have echo mode be the old HH, just have each Horn use only 3 of the Songs it could have in performance while enabling Echo mode to play more like it used to.
I loved the HH in Gen and 4 (tho I was a lance main mostly) and even started a run with a friend in World where I only run HH.
I tried the same in Rise and had fun with it, it's a great weapon and I'm glad more people enjoy it now, and the flow in the attack chains feels really smooth now.
But I just miss the technicality of the Horn, it felt a bit like actually learning to play an instrument (just not that complex especially with World giving you the sheets).
I think a common ground would be, keeping the simple 4 songs the new hh has but not limiting them to just 4. So there can be more songs but they're not simple double buttons. Bring back the older mechanics such as making songs stronger when notes are played by hitting the monster and making encores make the songs stronger or make them last longer.
Going even further, maybe some songs can only be played through echo mode? I think this was just a testing ground for what they can do with the weapon. They can go anywhere from here. Let's see where they end up.
The main thing that I dislike about rise HH is the lack of songs, each horn only gets three songs, one for the two attack buttons and one for pressing them both. This really takes away from the fun of the weapon for me since the fun part for me was stringing the notes together to play the song. Like many others have said, rise HH went from being a hunting horn to being a hammer with buffs and that’s what kills it for me
This is the perspective of someone who never main HH (until rise).
I play MH since PSP era. While i keep swapping weapons, there is a clear bias in my weapon choice since i use fast weapons more. Its not i don't know to play slow weapons, it's just i love fast-paced things. I understand the charm of HH and completely agree when people said World HH is the best HH that capcom makes based on previous HH. But i also extremely love the new HH. It become top 3 my most used weapon. Whenever i play with a party that has no HH user, 80% of the time i will swap to HH set.
The weapon is for someone who wants to play HH but doesn't want the chores that come with it yet they still get the praise for playing it. So my hope for the future game is they bring the old HH but keep the new HH as a new weapon (or maybe as a switch skill). So for someone who loves the chores gameplay can play their game. New HH is too cool to be removed.
You can argue old hh was too cool to be removed too. Good that some people find it more interesting now but for me and a lot of HH users they just replaced our favourite weapon with something completely different. I'm totally against destroying a weapon's identity to please people that never picked it up in the first place. It's a niche and that's alright. Now I'm afraid they'll "fix" lance and gunlance too which are two of my most beloved weapons. (If they do I'll probably not stick with mh which is crazy to say as a lifelong player)
Gunlance rework tho 👀. It's too complex for me. I main IG and LS so a dps faster explosive lance won't hurt.
I liked the HH in rise. Being a HH main since MH3 (the updated tri) I’ve used it consistently through the other MH iterations, and loving it in world. I understand why it’s so fast in this game due to the faster paced fighting, but I feel it’s too fast. I enjoy the direction they’re going in with the weapon. However in later installments I hope they slow the movement down. I really enjoyed the slower paced movements and correctly placing yourself in the fights for max damage and song output safety. In rise it’s kinda just go nuts. Though I feel it’s like that with all weapons due to the wire bug mech and the faster paced fighting.
My idea of HH rework is : keep the old combo ( however i do like the new combo , just not how the song is played and funnel you into one attack ), but HH now divide into Attack / defense / support Type , and you can install any note of your choosing thus all horn can have any song you want .The kicker is due to the HH type , the cost to install song / note will be different . Say you have 10 points to distribute note , an Attack type horn will have the cheapest cost for note that grant damage bonus while having higher cost for the other 2 notes . This will let us using the other horns but not bound to the META just because said horn have desired song .
I'm a HH main since mh3 (for who does not know, at the time you had to memorize the songs pre quest, so it was harder than in mh world), and even if the skill cap has lowered leading to less satisfaction by mastering it, i find Rise HH better in term of fun: less clunky, more dynamic. So i still love this weapon, but in a different way, and i honestly prefer rise hh than the previous versions.
Note that my second weapon are dual blades, so i probably like the new HH more because of the more aggressive and dynamic gameplay.
So imo it would be awesome if in the next mh they would keep the new hh playstyle but rising a litte the skill cap, maybe adding some extra song that you need to perform manually (like in world) but still keeping the magnificent trio fore the basic songs (i love that badass capoeira attack XD)
They wanted to make it so more than a hundred people play with the weapon. They succeeded. The question one should ask is, had the HH always been like this from the beginning, would you have still fallen in love with it? If the answer is yes, than the changes are irrelevant. In the long run, the spirit of the weapon is preserved, and now more accessible and stronger than ever. If MH continues for twenty more years, the OG HH would always have needed changing to justify its existence. Negative feedback loops are a thing, and with how few HH players there are, a bad one leaves an especially strong impression, leading to people forming negative conceptions. Case in point, the "support weapon" meme.
If your answer was no to my original question, ask why. What about OG HH are you missing? The skill? The exclusivity? Is it the game's job to cater to you, or to the average player?
Honestly the way the weapon performed when I pressed buttons. As others have mentioned it didn't have a real combo system, but felt more of a directional attack that I had spent time to learn the angles of the swings and could get hits where I wanted. I liked the feeling of doing a recital on a monster and greeding into an encore for more damage. The weapon had weight to it's swings and felt very visceral to doot on something's face. I miss the variety of songs that were available per horn instead of self buff +3 other things. These things are just gone. I already had a button "mashing" weapon I could play when I wanted that sort of thing, which is Dual Blades. I hopped between the two weapons to change my pace of playing and now I have dual blades and musical dull blades.
Exclusivity was whatever to me. PC Iceborne I saw tons of other hunting horns out there when I was maining it, to the point that it felt like they were targeting rooms/SoS in which another horn was in so they could play with another horn player.
I don't really care for hammer, should they make hammer better for me because I don't like it, especially at the cost of the people who do like it? No, I have weapons I do like and they shouldn't be focusing on trying to get me to like hammer.
@@TheFurrLord you still have to position yourself if you want to get KO, so no, it really isn't just dull DB now. This is an example of a terribly bad faith argument.
As for changing hammer... They have. Multiple times they have updated and iterated on it, leading to people increasingly using it. They tried that with HH three generations in a row, and failed to entice new players. Your anecdotal experience of meeting lots of HH players contradicts the factual evidence we have showing
Just wondering, but you do know that this isn't the Hunting Horn's first crack at an overhaul right? Pre-3U HH was also a very different (and difficult to use) weapon.
As a HH main, it feels weird seeing people talk about Old HH vs New HH when its more like Version 2.4 HH vs Version 3 HH.
Personally, i still enjoy HH even in Rise (though there are some aspects i would have wanted to change to be more similar to the previous version).
lol i've been saying this same thing pretty often, horn is different constantly, part of being a horn main is seeing what they did to it in every installment
if you know anything about fighting games, the dev tried to simplify the motion input and how the game is played, but takes control out from your grasp, the harder controp option is still available where you can make more powerful combo and adjust during different situations, I think the dev of mh need to do the same, to have the new hh user a footing to get them in the door, but there is an option if they want to reach a higher skill sealing, this should be better in short and long term cases for hh design
Man, the Rise hunting horn REALLY makes me miss the way it was in MHW.
Never mained HH pre-Rise but tried about 10 hunts with it in MHWIB. Never clicked for me pre-Rise, having to manage buffs and playing them.
Now I main Rise HH. It's ludicrously strong and allows me to fulfill my battle bard fantasy. Whatever they did to HH, it sure has been able to get more players both old and new to try the weapon. Though it may not be the same, it's not that bad of a thing.
While I would probably prefer Rise hunting horn if both versions were in the game, I do miss the earlier hunting horn and especially it's stronger buffs - it feels like you can have a near 100% up time because you have fewer, weaker buffs in Rise. I hope Sunbreak adds something to the Horn that gives back these longer performance time but stronger affect feeling buffs
As a player that mains gunlance and hammer the q&a about unpopular weapons receiving overhauls makes me nervous. Rise is my favourite iteration of GL in terms of having fun with the weapon, Hammer I preferred in world because it felt more weighty but capcom just need to make it the ko king again and itd be more fun in rise. Basically I don't think there's an issue with how fun they are (but I am biased towards them) it's more capcom needing to make the weapons feel satisfying and balanced. So I don't think they need overhauls, BUT I'd be interested to see what they did if it happens, id just hope you could choose between old and new styles, I feel bad for HH mains that lost their favourite way to doot.
Gunlance in particular doesn't need a rework, it is amazingly fun and nuanced in rise. All it needs are some no nonsense buffs. If the weapon did more damage, its usage would skyrocket as more players would give it a chance, and realize how fun it is!
Rise HH isn't the first time in the series a weapon's moveset get completely overhauled. Ironically, it was another HH changes from freedom unite (2G) to portable 3rd. Some may even argue lance got overhauled in P3 (though most of lance's old moves are still there, HH got completely changed instead). Guess people in Capcom just don't think they can get this weapon right.
There's a way to solve this... In the upcoming expansion, they should tweak the echo mode into something that will offer more skill ceiling and better payoff. This can be done by adding more songs into the echo mode and making the echo mode more similar to the previous titles. This way, the newer players can still enjoy hunting horn using the melody mode, while the veterans can use the echo mode. Basically HH will have two systems: Melody mode (easier but offers mediocre payoff) and Echo Mode (harder but better payoff).
I played HH since Generations and i will say that in Rise it feels like im mindlessly hitting the monster. I think lining up and managing the songs added a challenge to the HH that was incredibly satisfying when you pull it off. However i really love the attack animations in rise. So i think the Ideal HH would have rise attack animations but have the old note system… it would also be really nice if the Rise dubble swing (x+a attack) could play 2 notes like in Generations and Iceborne when you press an additional button in the middle of the dubble animation.
I'm a little late to this vid, but i just want to agree with people who think the new hh is too simple. Really hope they fix it in sunbreak. I want to be a hh main again!
Excited for part 2!
I never got to play the hunting horn it seemed cool but daunting to get into I hope it will come back pre rise or maybe a mixture of rise and old with simple weak melodies and strong long form melodies
i love how this came out right before HandiTipsGaming made their video on why they dislike Rise HH lmao. it’s like it was coordinated
In rise it feels like they took out the heaviness of the weapon, just to put it all into earthshatter. While satisfying at times, it quickly becomes dull as they limited you to mostly just attack boost and elementless damage while botching stats on many weapons, making the majority of horns cool, but overall lacking to be considered usable.
Personally another thing i dont like the new Horn is the fact is there is combos that can be chained into large encore recitles to do massive damage and buffing, now you have Crush followed up into Perform or Chord, thats.... it
Back in older titles you MADE your own combos to make your songs play, like my Attack L Combo that i use on the Fatalis Menace Wailer wailer is Overhead Smash - Hilt Stab (Y+B) - Superpound - Hilt Stab (B), i used this to get Attack Up L ready FAST and make it do a lot of damage, yet im having a lot of strategies on how to load up songs in my prefered way.
I haven't played rise hh too much but from what I've seen you can't spin your horn every other attack, unlike in world and in my opinion world's hh just felt heavier, meatier and has more of that blunt type weapon feel which was why I played it in the first place.
I agree with old HH style was rewarding to do but from Capcom's view it was very under used due to it play style. So I understand why this rework happened. Hopefully they will do a mix of both styles next game or sunbreak.
As someone who uses new HH quite a bit in Rise and never enjoyed HH prior to Rise I feel that there was basically no real benefit to learning such a complex weapon, the HH has never been the best weapon in any of the games it has been in, as a result putting in twice as much effort to learn HH for the weapon to be just about the same strength as most other weapons just isn't worth it to most players especially if you compare it to CB, in 4 and 4U CB was kinda overpowered, it could cut tails, KO monsters and deal massive amounts of damage so people would learn it purely because it was so strong in contrast HH was just a daunting to learn but with less payoff, players didn't learn HH because it was the best they learned it purely because they wanted to, why put in the work to learn HH when less complex weapons are just as good? Finally it's important to remember that basically every weapon gets changes and adjustments with every single game so if the next game keeps Rise HH then it'll likely add more complexity, basically Rise HH may just be the new base for the weapon with future games adding back some of the complexity that was removed but in a way that meshes with the Rise HH revamp.
You pretty much answered your own questions..
As you wrote liking the weapon alone is enough to justify its use. HH is one of the harder weapons to master, riskier and possibly the least rewarding so people would need to play more optimally and better than others to get relative outcomes to other weapons. It's definitely looked down upon by many people but the game is cooperative and unlike other games despite being at a "disadvantage" or not giving yourself enough of an advantage you can still make up with raw skill and dedication.
Some people may prefer a challenge and consciously chose what is widely deemed the "worst" weapon yet still overcome what most can't.
Then there are people who use the least used to feel more unique. Or maybe a combination of the 3 listed reasons or more that I failed to list here.
The only benefit to mastering such a complex weapon was using it viably which all weapons should be.
@@sircinabun5478 I mean yeah that's kinda what I mean, *some* players will dedicate the time to learning the HH because they really like the idea or want to challenge themselves or because know it's the least popular and thus will stand out online, however the key word there is *some* hence why the weapon was the least used in every game prior to Rise, the majority of players would pick up the HH and quickly realise how complex it is and then never touch it again, when I say "the HH is no stronger than most weapons despite how much effort it takes to learn" I mean that a lot of people who play games will use the "best" character/weapon/etc regardless of how difficult it is, trust me I main lance in Rise and I get a small feeling of satisfaction knowing that most of the rando's I'm playing with online could count the number of lance players they've seen on one hand, ultimately the pre-Rise HH was doomed to be unpopular due to being a very mid strength weapon that required twice as much effort to use compared to most other weapons.
I don't think I agree with the claim that Hunting Horn is the most changed weapon in the history of Monster Hunter. I think that "honor" goes to Bow, which pre-World was basically a ranged hammer and now is closer to a ranged Dual Blades. Lots of weapons have had pretty drastic changes, such as Insect Glaive and Charge Blade (whose changes made them dramatically less fun to play) and even Switch Axe which doesn't really play like it did before World (for the better in that case). I'd even go so far as to say Deviljho post World is basically a completely different monster than before World, but there's a lot less complaint about the fact that it's just the same skin with very few similarities in terms of how it fights you. Changes that completely change the identity of something are not something new to Monster Hunter.
I think your argument relies a bit too much on the idea that the weapon is just different without proving that the weapon is necessarily worse. You claim that the skill floor and skill ceiling have both been shrunk, but your supporting evidence only demonstrates that you no longer need to queue songs and time recitals. Hunting Horn, just like any other weapon, still needs to be played in a methodical way. It doesn't have a lower skill ceiling than, say, Sword and Shield, which has fast attacks and also has some very powerful hits in its arsenal.
At the end of the day, more people are using the weapon because they find it more enjoyable to play. Charge Blade is not an excessively easy to use weapon, but it sees usage because it's fun to use. Isn't that really what's happening with Hunting Horn? The changes make it more fun.
I left a like but I don't agree with the thesis of your argument. Sometimes change is good. Sometimes it is bad, but in this case the changes had a positive impact on the playerbase.
I don't think changing the core identity of a weapon is a good idea period. They walked back on changes they made for the bow for example so it's not like they just changed it and left it at that. They added back in some of the complexity bow had before. For hunting horn, they just completely changed it's identity but I do think having a weapon that is niche is absolutely alright and you don't have to gut it's complexity and the importance of positioning, planning and methodical combo routes that made hunting horn interesting to a lot of hunting horn players. I see the hunting horn changes in general as a lazy way to try and fix what wasn't broken in the first place. You don't need every weapon to become longsword. You just need to have a weapon for everybody, and these kinds of sweeping changes just makes people that stuck by for specific reasons leave the weapon, and people that weren't interested in complex and harsh difficulty curves be drawn to it more. But it's not worth sacrificing what hunting horn was imo
/irony/
I think we need a Greatsword rework that just removes the whole charge thing, it's too slow anyway. It should have a faster more flowy moveset that focuses on repositioning so I don't have to sheat all the time, maybe a few counters here and there. Also it could disturb the teammates constantly since it's a wide sweeping weapon.
oh wait.
I know this is a joke but this is basically what happened to GS in rise anyways. Wirebug sheath and adamant slash remove like 50 percent of the nuance with the weapon and it hurts my soul.
@@meepmeep9943 i did not anticipate we would get a replacement for Charge Slashes when i made the comment :d
Rise turned a methodical weapon into a mindless breakdancing, button mashing weapon.
Old world HH is so boring, clunky and with repetitive playstyle, glad for the changes
@@wallacesousuke1433 that's because you didn't invest the time to actually exploit it's very rich and deep playstyle. Don't remove what other players were attached to because hunting horn isn't a second longsword (and it shouldn't be)
@@dmitrisemenoff6455 dunno how a weapon with such simple and limited moveset can offer rich and deep playstyle.. Dont get me wrong, I kinda liked HH in W:IB and GU but it grew old already.. Rise's HH needs some tweak for sure (a hybrid moveset that mixes both old and new style), but I like the changes for the most part
@@wallacesousuke1433 if you look hh's moveset it actually has one of the biggest movelists in world with directional encores and recitals. It's fine if you like them, but changes should try and keep the original identity imo.
I loved world HH but I genuinely cannot play it in rise. I liked HH in world because I had to be good with the weapon adding a layer of challenge ontop of the challenge. But now I just get to button mash to win.
At this point I just call the new Hunting Horn the Melody Mace. As well as picking up a new weapon to use.
Seriously if the original hunting horn doesn’t make a return in the next game I will CRY
I like the music of hh in other games. I modded in different songs in mhw so i could enjoy listening to it while playing. That is gone in rise
It's clear that they wanted to make it more simplified in order for it to be much easier to get a grasp of, but I'm not an HH main and even I think that they dumbed it down hard.
It is the weapon that feels really good to play once you master it. Dumbing it down just looses that whole feeling when you master it, since now it's so simple.
As someone who got into the Hunting Horn in World, the weapon I enjoyed is gone. I’m happy for the people who enjoy the new version. But I really miss the old one and just am not interested. I hope it doesn’t happen to another weapon I play.
I love the Hunting Horn, but looking at the older games (MHRise is my first MH game btw) I kinda wish they would've kept the complex combos and songs. :/