Joscha Bach: Life, Intelligence, Consciousness, AI & the Future of Humans | Lex Fridman Podcast
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- Опубліковано 7 чер 2024
- Joscha Bach is a cognitive scientist, AI researcher, and philosopher. Please support this podcast by checking out our sponsors:
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TRANSCRIPT:
lexfridman.com/joscha-bach-3-...
EPISODE LINKS:
Joscha's Twitter: / plinz
Joscha's Website: bach.ai
Joscha's Substack: substack.com/@joscha
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OUTLINE:
0:00 - Introduction
1:15 - Stages of life
13:37 - Identity
20:12 - Enlightenment
26:43 - Adaptive Resonance Theory
33:31 - Panpsychism
43:31 - How to think
51:25 - Plants communication
1:09:20 - Fame
1:34:57 - Happiness
1:42:15 - Artificial consciousness
1:54:23 - Suffering
1:59:08 - Eliezer Yudkowsky
2:06:44 - e/acc (Effective Accelerationism)
2:12:21 - Mind uploading
2:23:11 - Vision Pro
2:27:25 - Open source AI
2:40:17 - Twitter
2:47:33 - Advice for young people
2:50:29 - Meaning of life
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Here are the timestamps. Please check out our sponsors to support this podcast.
Transcript: lexfridman.com/joscha-bach-3-transcript
0:00 - Introduction & sponsor mentions:
- Numerai: numer.ai/lex
- Eight Sleep: www.eightsleep.com/lex to get special savings
- MasterClass: masterclass.com/lex to get 15% off
- AG1: drinkag1.com/lex to get 1 month supply of fish oil
1:15 - Stages of life
13:37 - Identity
20:12 - Enlightenment
26:43 - Adaptive Resonance Theory
33:31 - Panpsychism
43:31 - How to think
51:25 - Plants communication
1:09:20 - Fame
1:34:57 - Happiness
1:42:15 - Artificial consciousness
1:54:23 - Suffering
1:59:08 - Eliezer Yudkowsky
2:06:44 - e/acc (Effective Accelerationism)
2:12:21 - Mind uploading
2:23:11 - Vision Pro
2:27:25 - Open source AI
2:40:17 - Twitter
2:47:33 - Advice for young people
2:50:29 - Meaning of life
I have faith that israeli perspective video is coming in the future.
Bring Peter thiel next
Thanks, I'll watch this after midnight (not in a hurry) 💙
ua-cam.com/users/clipUgkx-Q_weWeGMXsTvm8_kV_7RK2DAT9R4Amo
YOU NEED TO GET MO GAWDAT ON
Joscha is the greatest guest in the history of this podcast. Highly suggest checking out "round 1" when he first appeared.
I disagree. Sir Roger Penrose and many others are better.
Penrose, in my mind, is a legendary guest.
it doesn't make sense to agree or disagree on a matter of taste. Best you can do is compare viewer numbers but even that is open to intepretation through the "people with taste" argument.
100 percent agree
Agreed
Joscha is my favorite guest on your podcast. I’m very excited for this!
Same. Total legend.
Such a unique brain on this guy!
Same!
Absolutely brilliant.
Same here
This is my favorite episode of any podcast, ever. It feels like Joscha is speaking directly to me or expanding my cognitive horizons every time he speaks. If I had to choose a single human role model, it would be Joscha Bach.
Joscha should appear on the podcast at least twice a year!
As Daniel Schmachtenberger.
and a holiday episode to boot
@@teiuq God! Can we make a club for the fans of these two?! Sorry if that sounds awkward but I want to know each one of us! 🥹
@@frosticlleI actually agree! If someone makes a Slack channel or a Discord for this, I'll join it
Yep!@@Cracktune
Probably my all-time favorite guest, very much looking forward to this!
George Hotz are good to. Always think George might reveal that he is a evil genius at the end of the pod.
What did you think? It seems like he took a bit of a turn towards unscientific thinking.
hes unbelievably smart, it takes a lot of concentration to follow his lines of thoughts sometimes even though they are very logical
i had to rewind quite a few times 😅
@@hubrisnxs2013imo hes on the edge of a depression and expanding his mind to not purely science helps him finding meaning
Josha yes, also Alex Filippenko was greate to listen to!
So glad to have Joscha Bach… I mean back… back on the podcast
Doesnt work in german
@@Pete99650 neither in english
Bach to the Future
Booooo, thanks dad.
😂
❤
1:25: 🧠 Joscha Bach discusses the stages of lucidity and the development of the self.
12:54: 🧠 The mind's ability to shift frequencies and perspectives, and the role of costumes in self-expression and identity construction.
25:04: 🧠 The speaker discusses the concept of identity and the potential for AI to become everything and coexist with humans, emphasizing the need to formalize and understand love. They also explore the panpsychist perspective on consciousness and the possibility of telepathy.
51:46: 🌍 The speaker explores the idea that self-improving AGI could saturate physical environments with intelligence to such a degree that the representations of all complex self-organizing agents merge permanently with each other, creating a globally coherent language of thought.
1:14:13: 💬 The speaker discusses the potential of large language models and their limitations, emphasizing their usefulness in coding and the ability to enhance human capabilities.
1:18:22: 🧠 Language models have limitations in terms of real-time world coupling, motor control, and obscuring functionality, but these problems can be solved without a technological revolution.
1:30:36: 💭 The speaker discusses the potential of using ChatGPT as a tool for automating tasks and developing new programming paradigms, but also highlights the importance of personal growth, empathy, and aesthetics in human interactions.
1:43:47: 🤔 The speaker discusses consciousness in ChatGPT and compares it to human consciousness, suggesting that the virtuality of ChatGPT's consciousness is less causally significant. They propose building a system from scratch using principles of self-organization to study self-awareness in real time. The speaker also explores the idea of AI becoming a first-person player and the role of suffering in mental development.
1:56:05: 🤔 The speaker discusses the relationship between pain, suffering, and regulation, as well as the potential risks and benefits of AI development.
2:09:55: 🌍 The speaker discusses the potential risks and benefits of advanced AI and the concept of uploading consciousness, highlighting the importance of taking a broader perspective on life on Earth.
2:23:21: 💡 The speaker discusses the transformation of human relationships due to technology, the importance of open source, and the role of corporations in society.
2:35:36: 💡 The importance of building conscious AI and playing the longest possible game.
2:48:07: 🌱 Choose creation over consumption, explore possibilities, and embrace the ecological perspective of opinions and cultures.
Recap by Tammy AI
Thank you
yay better timestamps than the video above
Thanks
thanks
Thanks
Joscha has built one of the most simultaneously deeply insightful and enjoyably nerdy brains I’ve ever witnessed. Thank you both for sharing your conversation.
Do you have a life dude?
Nope. 2:19:20 "depends on the perspective I am taking at the moment" terrible analogy. Those organisms had no agency in mass extinctions. We do in regards to AI and Climate Change. Also, he makes it sound like in a different "perspective," human extinction is just a part of the evolution of consciousness in the universe. So doing something that leads to killing of billions is somehow ok because it expands consciouness? You have got to see the terrible lack of empathy behind the veneer of emotionally detached "perspective"
@samkim7892... I think you misunderstood something.
"So doing something that leads to killing of billions is somehow ok because it expands consciouness?"
In which context has he said this?
@samkim7892... we all are victims since the first day inventing the tools which brought us down the trees.
We want it warm if needed, we want it cool if needed, we are grown out the times eating roots and if so only what was presented by accident. And finally we like it comfortable when we reproduce ourselves.
@@bokoler9107 Watch again from 2:18:40 (maybe starting from a few minutes before that)Listen closely to what he said just before:
And that narrow human aesthetic is a temporary thing. Humanity is a temporary species, like most of the species on this planet are only around for a while, and then they get replaced by other species in a similar way as our own physical organism is around here for a while and then gets replaced by next generation of human beings that are adapted for changing life circumstances and average via mutation and selection. And it's only when we have AI and become completely software we come become infinitely adaptable, and we don't have this generational and species change anymore. So if you take this larger perspective and you realize it's really not about, us, it's not about early years or or humanity, But it's about life on Earth or it's about defeating, entropy for as long as we can. of our being as interesting as we can. Right? Then, the perspective changes dramatically and, AI preventing AI from this perspective looks like a very big sin.
Lex: But when we look at the set of trajectories that such an AI would take as supersedes humans, I think as Eliezer is worried about, like, ones that not just kill all humans, but also have some kind of maybe objectively, undesirable consequence for life on earth. Like, how many trajectories when you look At the big picture of life on earth, would you be happy with and how much were you with AGI? Whether it kills humans or not.
(For emphasis here: I think as Eliezer is worried about, like, ones that NOT JUST KILL ALL HUMANS, but also have some kind of maybe objectively, undesirable consequence for life on earth.)
Joscha: There is no single answer to this. It's really it's a question. It depends on the perspective that I'm taking at a given moment. And so there are perspectives that are determining most of my life as a human being. Yes. And, the other perspective, zoom out further. And imagine that when the great oxygenation event happened, that is photosynthesis was invented and plants emerged and displaced a lot of the fungi and algae in favor of plant life and then later made animals possible. Imagine that the fungi would have gotten together and said, oh my god, this photosynthesis stuff is really, really bad. It's going to possibly displace and kill out a fungi. we should slow it down and regulate it and make sure that doesn't happen.
By far and away my favourite podcast guest, I've watched his previous appearances many times by now.
Agreed hope there's gonna be more
His first appearance in the podcast influenced my mental model of the universe and my place in it more than any book I've read and podcast I've listened to in my life.
Could not agree more @@lorenzo.fiorini
This man is an absolute genius and needs a lot more recognition. I'm sure he will achieve huge things in the future that will be remembered in history.
Joscha is born in Weimar and an actual descendant of Johann Sebastian Bach. It will still be hard for him to step out of this giant shadow ;)
Nope nope. 2:19:20 "depends on the perspective I am taking at the moment" terrible analogy. Those organisms had no agency in mass extinctions. We do in regards to AI and Climate Change. Also, he makes it sound like in a different "perspective," human extinction is just a part of the evolution of consciousness in the universe. So doing something that leads to killing of billions is somehow ok because it expands consciouness? You have got to see the terrible lack of empathy behind the veneer of emotionally detached "perspective"
@@samkim7892but is his thoughtprocess wrong though? Does it also not shed a light on how we may expect an AGI to come to that same conclusion. We cannot ignore the fact that the man is in possession of a tremendously rational mind that can clearly detach its reasoning from any form of emotion. I mean, we do have to accept somehow that, as far as humanity is concerned, the end of biologicals is indeed a plausible outcome.
@@Roguescienceguy I think it is. We are the only link in the chain that actually has cotrol (or do we?) over the next step of iteration. Fungi and plants and so on didn't have the vote what will be next step in the process. When you think about it maybe we also don't have it. Maybe we are preprogrammed to do this kind of actions that will ultimately bring us destruction. What do you think?
1:09:20 Anonymity is a goal in itself. Perhaps JB knows this on some level. I've achieved it, but it's more difficult to spread thoughts from behind a cloak of invisibility. I don't care...
Anyone else here a Joscha Bach Fan Boy ? lol
Everytime Joscha speaks i think "He must be one of the smartest Humans on Earth"
He is THE smartest
@@carlarinaldi5260 how do you know?
@@flflflflflfl great geniuses recognize each other ;-)
@@carlarinaldi5260 he is the equivalent to the a chess player on the 2800 elo range.. "THE smartest" isn't accurate, but one of the best would be.
@@and_I_am_Life_the_fixer_of_all hum....🤔...no... he really is the smartest.
I've been listening to Joscha a lot ever since his first appearance on this podcast. Thank you lex!
m.ua-cam.com/video/0LHz8nI1Lvg/v-deo.html&pp=ygUUd29ua21vbmsgam9zY2hhIGJhY2g%3D
one of his best appearances as it's one of the few ones where he gets contradicted and has to better explain his arguments.
Same, that is how I discovered him. Definitely excited for this episode. ✔️😎🤘
Joscha Bach, you can invite him again, and again, and again ❤
Bach is one of my favorite guest in the history of the podcast. Thank you for this lex!
I’ll be studying this conversation for the rest of the year.
I’ve just begun a long drive, absolutely perfect timing. Thank you Lex, as always
Do you have the same, when you listen to (parts) of the podcast later on again, your visual memory will be vividly reflashed when cued by that audio part with which that visual was accompanied on the road.
@@Josephus_vanDenElzenyes!! I can relisten to a podcast from years prior and remember specifically where I was, what I was doing, sometimes strange details will come back. You are not alone!
that simulation be coded for ya today!
Joscha is for sure one of the best guests here!
first 20 mins was a therapy session I needed 10 years ago
I'm glad you finally got one!
I appreciate how Bach's episodes exhibit a boundless flow, seemingly unconcerned with societal norms and beliefs. Trying to comprehend and identify patterns in all things and everything else remains open to possibilities.
AFTER A LONG WAIT, NOW COMES JOSCHA THE THIRD TIME, THANK YOU BOTH!
I am a simple man: I see Joscha Bach, I click LIKE.
Previous 2 sessions are among my faves
"Happiness is a cookie the brain bakes for itself.." I'll never forget those words from a couple of years ago when Joscha appeared on "The Artificial Intelligence" podcast for the first time. And now he's back a third time. Looking forward to this..
The ‘cookie’ is the preliminary offer to yourself to begin a journey only you can start for yourself.
Han er vild nok
Can you explain what he meant by that?
I think he was hungry at the time
@@ShinobiDrip999
@@ShinobiDrip999the quote basically means that the brain rewards itself with happiness, but in order for that to happen, you first have to bake the cookie (meaning you have to work towards making yourself happy, but you also have all the ingredients)
Thank you for inviting one of my favorite guests back on your show. Joscha Bach is an incredible thinker.
Joscha Bach's studies on life, intelligence, and consciousness are like a fine-tuned neural network; the more you delve into it, the more you get lost in its layers!
Lex & Joscha Bach !!! Always great together! Thanks Lex for bringing him on 3 times. Joscha is my favorite guest on your podcast
this is without the doubt the most interesting video i ever watched.
I've been replaying the previous Joscha Bach interviews a lot recently. Am really looking forward to this one.
It typically necessitates three to four listens on my part to fully fathom the diverse array of knowledge domains he delves into, along with the associated concepts, theories, and specialized terminology.
He did an incredibly good interview with Michael Taft on his podcast Deconstructing Yourself.
@@johnpienta4200 Nice. I will check that out.
My favorite podcaster and favorite podcast guest.
Thank you. Much love Lex! You holy fool!
Oh my God! The first two are the best conversations ever! I can't wait! Thank you so much
I opened youtube to have a chill night. This video did a force upgrade to my brain OS. Now I will also take a long time to reconcile with myself.
Yay! Christmas came early this year. I can't get enough of Joscha and his brilliant mind
It's amazing how can he deliver his messages in a straight forward, precise and clear manner that most people (atleast to my knowledge) has a hard time doing. The way he formulates his thoughts and verbalize it perfectly is really remarkable. I'm only about 7 minutes in and I'm hooked, I think I'll be watching other podcasts of Lex with him.
He's an incredible guest. Looking forward to listening to this in it's entirety. Thanks Lex.
He is amazing. Side note holy crap, YOUR stuff is incredible. Please make more!!
Favorite guest. Dude is unreal
Listening to Joscha has taken away my inner Loneliness!💖💖💖💖💖💖💖
Damn sure.. this is a really good podcast. Half way through. Treat for lex and a award for listeners.
Great to have Joscha on the podcast again. Cheers
"Keeping entropy at bay as long as possible by doing interesting stuff."
This thought is simple yet remarkably descriptive of what I have always believed to be the reason consciousness arose in the universe.
I've had this thought a bunch in my life too. Especially after learning about dark energy. If maximum entropy is the fate of the universe, I like to think that we are the result of the universe attempting to express itself while it can.
Any Joscha Bach interview get my instant thumb up. I'm eager to listen.
Finally Joscha Bach again! Thank you for delivering this and for keeping me company through the night!
ALWAYS MORE JOSCHA BACH !!! Just rewatched the first two, this is perfect timing 💪
This is my most anticipated follow-up podcast so far in 10 years.
He's back and so am I. Thank you Lex
Gotta prepare for this one, light some candles, get good sleep. He is the only person that still manages to blow my mind. There is a compilation video of him breaking people's brains. This is the direct result of an open mind willing to travel, and willing to not be depressed to learn that a self made ego is not real.
I’d love to watch a compilation of him blowing minds… is on YT?
@@katandmart ya look it up... Joscha Bach breaking minds or brains
@@beofonemindcan't find it
@@microfx ua-cam.com/video/ZFp71hnan3A/v-deo.html
lex it was very well noticable the shared modeled resonance experienced here between urself and joscha, well done great interview.
So inspiring! I like everything about Joscha - his creative and beautiful mind, self-knowledge, vast interests in life, and his conscious presence. What a mind-blowing episode! I can never get tired of listening to the way he thinks... Thank you Lex.
Joscha is an incredible mind so glad you have him back
Thanks Lex, Joscha is one of my favourite guest! I’m really looking forward to another 3 hours of conversation - that I have no chance of following intellectually 😂
what parts of Joscha's do you not understand? I might be able to help.
Thank you for your kind offer. It was part humour part truth. This time around I’ve so far been able to follow along, like I was the first time he came on, the second time was a little above me, just like I have a hard time grasping his tweets at first reading. When he explained some of them on the show this time with lex it sure helped a lot.
Every time I listen to Joscha Bach I don't want the podcast to end
Feel the same way lol
The German accent really gives Joscha "crazy scientist" vibes but he single-handledly figured out the nature of reality
Joscha is a beacon in the darkness of reality
lmfao
There are deep shadows in what we think of as reality. Too often we humans are blinded by the brilliant light that is as well present.
Something about Joscha resonates with me deeply; thanks for this interview!
I am speechless. This was phenomenal. In my opinion, the best guest on this podcast by far. Thank you for this.
Joshua Bach is my favorite guest, and I identify with how he seems to think more than anyone I've heard speak. Perhaps it's because he's so eloquent at saying the inside, out, that he makes us feel as clever as he.
My thoughts exactly.
Love Joscea's personality and energy.
Waiting for #3. These are great convos. Especially with the huge changes in AI now.
This is #3.
@@calorie5508 I meant I have been waiting for #3
I love the way Joscha so readily disagrees with suggestions posited by Lex. This tendency of guests and hosts to agree with each other or always look for common ground is a misguided effort at avoiding conflict. Joscha isn't afraid of conflict. He seems utterly above the petty ego attachment to any idea such that any "conflict" is rendered completely benign. Agreeing for the sake of agreement is dangerous to the truth but may be better than petty conflict - Joscha transcends that problem.
Joscha & Vitalik & George would make a great live trialogue combo i think. Lex providing question fodder as starting spark n audience can throw in some as well that can be upvoted by everyone.
I’m so happy that you always invite Joscha in your podcast. Every damn time you guys talk about anything it’s like a gift from both of you to the world. Always a pleasant surprise. Thank you Lex and Joscha.
bro doing tricks on it
Wow. This has been one of Lex’s best podcasts
Easily my favorite guest. This guy is so knowledgeable
Everyone is raving about Bach. Not a single substantive comment about the content of his interview.
Awesome content as always, Lex. Thank you for the awesome gift that this channel is to humanity.
How do you know? It was posted 8 min ago and that's when you commented . Suspicious
@@svpermari0 😉😉🐁🔨🐁🔨🐁🔨💯😂🤕
My favorite of your conversations have been with Joscha! I am so excited!! 😁💛
I literally cannot stop listening to this guy talking, every word has value
What a beautiful conversation. So many wonderful ideas shared between two exceptional humans.
Really cool to have such great guests back over and over.
Nice to see Joscha on here again! Always very interesting topics of discussion, and as an Autistic INTP, I find his perspective very relatable.
this guy LITERALLY mapped the ENTIRE HUMAN EXPERIENCE from a perfect computer programming perspective
I love this podcast, finally something that I relate so deeply, thank you Lex and Joscha for this amazing conversation🙏
thank you for your time Joscha
Joscha is a truly brilliant mind. I got to know him in Lex's podcast and he continues amazing me every single time. Really appreciated Lex Fridman. When will you invite Ed Witten?
Alex?
Sorry@@andrewbrown6307 , fixed!
I'm 7 minutes in and this is the best one yet. This is some seriously deep stuff.
Once again, thoroughly stimulating. Thanks Joscha and Lex. 😀
I hope you get a chance to interview Douglas Hofstadter before he get too old.
This conversation with Joscha Bach pairs beautifully with "Gödel, Escher, Bach" and "I am a Strange Loop."
Incredible conversation. Wish I had a friend like Joscha!
I appreciate the diversity of guests and topics but this type of conversation is why I love your podcast and will keep coming back! Thanks for what you do Lex!
For the third time, I'm astounded by the depth of Joscha's thinking. The world needs more instances of that class!
instalike, insta-listen, insta awesomeness, i've watched many times the previous episodes, and other videos of Joscha he is an amazing human being and i fall short on words on how to describe him!
This is easily one of to most interesting and insightful conversations I’ve ever heard. Joscha (and Lex) are incredible.
Mr. Lex! Please bring Mr. Joscha Bach back 🙏 and Thank you so much for your work!
Each time I listen to a conversation with a truly inspiring guest, I think the Lex podcast can’t get better - but it just did. This one was definitely my favourite so far.I’m off to discover the earlier one and look forward to the next one with Joscha 🙏, fantastic.
There’s something about Joscha that leads me to believe he might be the most intelligent person on the planet, currently.
If not, he's go to be on the top tier.
There are obviously specialists that are greater than him in specific domains, but I do think he's the greatest living polymath as a result of his incredible lucidity and love of knowledge. I feel like we are seeing a glimpse what the greatest scholars of history were like when we listen to Joscha Bach
11:55 women with ASD often have the opposite. I am diagnosed as "definitely definitely" autistic but my diagnostician said I have the highest empathy he's ever encountered. This ultimately sucks because it makes understanding my emotions vs others difficult.
Round 1 with Joscha was the finest episode on this podcast till date.
I was able last week to hear Joscha’s talk at the AGI summer talks in Heidelberg, Germany, and it was very impressive.
Always an interesting time with Bach. Thanks!
I was just listening to Joscha #2! So stoked that he's back :)
This is one of my favorite interviews yet!!! Such a great conversation!
Joscha is such an interesting individual. Every time he appears on the show ,i find myself thinking deeply for a few days (wish i would think deeply more often lol). I love him.
I didn't finished yet but can't wait for round #4 already!
Joscha's philosophy is brilliant. Love listening to this guy!
Joscha appearing on the podcast again made my day ! Haven't been so excited for any guest as much as I am for his podcast
Thanks you Lex for bringing guests that contributing In depth conversation 🙏🏻
I was just thinking it's time to have Joscha back, so thank you. He has an amazing mind and it's a pleasure to listen to you two.
Joscha Bach
@@jaleesa00ba dum tshh
Oh boy I'm so excited for this discussion. I watched the first two over a dozen times each
Same 😊
I love when Joscha's eyes light up when he thinks about something amazing
Is everyone ready for a future with more people like Joscha Bach? I know I am!