Joscha Bach: Artificial Consciousness and the Nature of Reality | Lex Fridman Podcast
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- Опубліковано 13 тра 2024
- Joscha Bach is the VP of Research at the AI Foundation, previously doing research at MIT and Harvard. Joscha work explores the workings of the human mind, intelligence, consciousness, life on Earth, and the possibly-simulated fabric of our universe.
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Incredible comment by ernst.gemeint showing some of the topics mentioned:
• Joscha Bach: Artificia...
EPISODE LINKS:
Joscha's Twitter: / plinz
Joscha's Website: bach.ai/
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Full episodes playlist:
• Lex Fridman Podcast
Clips playlist:
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OUTLINE:
0:00 - Introduction
3:14 - Reverse engineering Joscha Bach
10:38 - Nature of truth
18:47 - Original thinking
23:14 - Sentience vs intelligence
31:45 - Mind vs Reality
46:51 - Hard problem of consciousness
51:09 - Connection between the mind and the universe
56:29 - What is consciousness
1:02:32 - Language and concepts
1:09:02 - Meta-learning
1:16:35 - Spirit
1:18:10 - Our civilization may not exist for long
1:37:48 - Twitter and social media
1:44:52 - What systems of government might work well?
1:47:12 - The way out of self-destruction with AI
1:55:18 - AI simulating humans to understand its own nature
2:04:32 - Reinforcement learning
2:09:12 - Commonsense reasoning
2:15:47 - Would AGI need to have a body?
2:22:34 - Neuralink
2:27:01 - Reasoning at the scale of neurons and societies
2:37:16 - Role of emotion
2:48:03 - Happiness is a cookie that your brain bakes for itself
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I really enjoyed this conversation with Joscha. Here's the outline:
0:00 - Introduction
3:14 - Reverse engineering Joscha Bach
10:38 - Nature of truth
18:47 - Original thinking
23:14 - Sentience vs intelligence
31:45 - Mind vs Reality
46:51 - Hard problem of consciousness
51:09 - Connection between the mind and the universe
56:29 - What is consciousness
1:02:32 - Language and concepts
1:09:02 - Meta-learning
1:16:35 - Spirit
1:18:10 - Our civilization may not exist for long
1:37:48 - Twitter and social media
1:44:52 - What systems of government might work well?
1:47:12 - The way out of self-destruction with AI
1:55:18 - AI simulating humans to understand its own nature
2:04:32 - Reinforcement learning
2:09:12 - Commonsense reasoning
2:15:47 - Would AGI need to have a body?
2:22:34 - Neuralink
2:27:01 - Reasoning at the scale of neurons and societies
2:37:16 - Role of emotion
2:48:03 - Happiness is a cookie that your brain bakes for itself
Your work and discipline has really inspired many people across the globe ... Though I must add, that many youngsters, like myself love your way of expression & the extent you push yourself to deliver the unique #collabs & #interactions ... it's just Marvelous. Lots of love from India ❤️
Lex Fridman what if A.I will go down pathway of having to build a physical picture of the world and create mechanisms to interact with it? Will it have a body ?
lex your closed cooling loop seems broken here
1:36:00 super good point.
Julian Maldonado Nirvana
Please have him back sometime soon, one of the best guests yet.
Like a character out of a magical dream! 😴😀
Brendan Wright
I really hope more people start making intelligent podcasts like this one. UA-cam is a playground for toddlers without good material like this.
Congrats
The speed at which this guy speaks makes this actually a 10 hour podcast compressed into 3 hours.
Not so much the speed of speech but the amount of dense ideas per unit of time.
Yeah. He speaks not too much faster than normal but his answers are dense af in terms of idea units per sentence. Lex could barely keep up in the first half hour.
Yeah, man.
You can tell that he has spent a lot of time formulating his ideas into writing
The best podcast ever!
All of us listeners are like pigeons, pecking on breadcrumbs from the insights this guy is casually tossing on the ground for us.
Thank you Joscha! Please do more podcasts; your articulated ideas are like fresh baked cookies for our brains.
Wish he had his own channel here
Just picking out the odd nugget every now and then !
Hand on heart, I listened to the first hour LITERALLY 20 times, and still don't get all of what he said( of course I'm not native english speaker and have to translate a lot words, but still, it is crasy to get what he talks about). Now I am planning to download the subtitle and read!
So damn right!
Indeed I've rewound this podcast over a hundred times trying to understand Bach's genius-level perspectives.
Ok, this is the 5th time i am watching this interview. Officialy addicted to Joscha.
Best interview ever
That’s rookie numbers.
I have watched it over 10 times now and I'm still processing.
Truly an epic Lex interview - the way Joscha relates his ideas is SOOOOOO dense, I have to rerun over and over to to grasp it, then to appreciate it, then to be captivated by the poetic beauty of it...amazing!
Joscha: *says something shockingly profound
Lex: "How do you know that!?
Joscha: *says something even more profound
Lex: *closes eyes in silence
Joscha: 25:52 widens eyes for intensity.
He is the alien. They call this 3 hour burn...soft conditioning.
And last name "Bach ?" Really ? Uhm...
"Wow", "Yeah, "
@@NationandState depp
Don't play this at 2x, content density is so high that a black hole might be formed right in front of your computer.
I say this from experience. Commenting from another dimension.
Goddamn pull your britches up the black hole will go away!!
so you just want to keep this new dimension for yourself?
Lol!!!! Awesomeness
Laugh of the Day-thanx!
😂😂
I have listened to almost all the lex episodes. This the most insightful conversation on human nature Lex has ever had. I have watched it 3 times and will watch many more and learn new things everytime. Bach is just phenomenal. His sentences are very condensed and distilled. No wasted words, no pauses, efficient and well thought out and researched ideas. Incredible
The guy is an AI
It's like he has lived this day a few hundred times, already.
I love Joscha . To hear someone
else describe him as being
" " phenomenal " " . . . pleases me .
Mi thoughts exactly. This guy is the very definition of optimal synthesis.
I love listening to Bach. Especially when I'm studying.
Man respect to Lex for being able to carry on a conversation with this guy. I couldn’t keep up with hardly any of that let alone been able to formulate a response more intelligent than grunts and noises.
Must be nice to have a photographic memory.
Lol
I'm an idiot who's barely employable, but I feel I understand clearly what he is saying, his thoughts don't make me feel confused, it makes me feel satisfied with his articulation and I'm sure I'll spend a week or more pondering this, but this situation makes me so confused about myself, I'm so bad at doing everything, but stuff like this seems crystal clear, I feel that it might have something to do with the fact that, as was suggested, my simulation is so poorly adapted for this environment that my brain is super tuned to finding out what this environment even is.
He’s on another level
@@wilbertwallace6655 nah you just gotta fail more. Learn how to play Mary had a little lamb on three instruments. Than go play it for someone. See what happens.
His answers don’t freak me out as much as him not even taking a second to think about the questions Lex throws at him. He’s effectively reading his mind, pre-empting the questions, and answering them excellently. This is another level of intellect. Cannot wait for him to come on to the Portal.
I doubt he'll ever be on the Portal, I think Eric would feel threatened by Bach's intelligence.
@@naught_ Would you care to back up that claim with any reasoning that may support it?
@@jayanthkumar7964 The Portal Ep 15 is the most blatant example
naught lol I definitely see this
@@naught_ I think Eric would have to learn a new level of humility, or if it is already within him then I will say that I have misdjudged him
i would look forward to their conversation, however, because either way Eric would want to be able to talk to this guy
Joscha’s hair is not crazy enough to express his true genius.
❤️
damn good observation.ya his wig culd b like Donald Trump+that purple Georgio guy from ancient aliens show,if they had a baby....but polkadoted
Even entropy is intimidated by Joscha.
The guy doesn't even have a pocket protector. Sorry, but I can't take him seriously. A total fraud
@@michaeltrevino201 I had to look up "Pocket Protector " then I laughed when I saw what it is . OMG , my dad spent like $800 on a texas instruments calculator in the '70's and that is like $5000 today . I grew up with an analog wave oscillator in the basement . I can see it now in my minds eye , that bright green line waving over the emerald green field through the crosshairs
This guy just explained the meaning of Life, the Universe and Everything. He really did it 👍
Uhh, care to translate in a way a goof like me can understand?
@@Andy-pl7nk it’s a reference to a quote from a movie hitch hikers guide to galaxy
@@Andy-pl7nk Read or listen to the book I Am That; these concepts are explained without much scientific content.
Exactly! He even has a sensible, scientific theory about god!!!
@@Andy-pl7nk It helps if you are familiar with IT concepts. I work my whole life in IT, so I'm lucky in that sense to be able to follow him. Still I had to listen to this podcast multiple times over a couple of months to extract 75% out of it.
This might be the best conversation I've ever heard on the entire internet. Thanks Lex and Joscha.
The amount of intelligence and humility in this man is something I've never encountered. Its striking.
Yeah it set me back
this guy lost a lot of ego while learning he does not exist.
@@MrPoonomatic Lol. The more you learn the less you are sure
When you're wealthy and you meet a beggar you don't really feel the need to flaunt your wealth to prove to the beggar you're ballin'
So inspirational!
Not even ten minutes in and I can't believe the amount of absolute bombs this guy is casually dropping.
couldn't describe it better
I'm right there with you.
"A government, game theoretically, is an agent that imposes an offset on your payout metrics to make your knash equilibrium compatible with the common good"
@@obsoleteboomermobileobsole2043 en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nash_equilibrium
Holy shit!!! That guy really is impossible! How can he manage those ideas at that speed, and then weave them in natural language!!!
I'm glad that he seems to be a benevolent being. Can you imagine a guy like that with sociopathic or anarchistic views?
Lex: What books have you read?
Joscha: Yes
lol
This should be a transcript and published. Truly a remarkable conversation. I’m going to change the speed to .75 and take notes on the lap top
I had to slow the speed as well. Perhaps Lex sped it up before publishing it…I’d like a copy as well…
I comment in the hope I can get a transcript
"We only seem so complex to each other because we are so stupid, it's a little bit depressing"
This is the statement that sums up the conversation.
lol
That is depressing to hear in advance.. But he is wrong still not because its a defence we have within us to never let our guard down to be manipulated or controlled by natures gifts. its an instinct that is very sencetive and that can be eazily triggerd by the slightest unstability (caused by unfamiliarity) we feel within us. no one is perfectly balanced mentaly and our minds has no power to control our instinct try walking on sharp glas without feeling any pain or feeling for matter
@@Joshin_Jinn well... you, me, or Kaye may not be able to tame the instinct responses, but look at the case of protesting monks in Vietnam in 1963. The one from famous photo was not the only one.
nah, tha statement dat best summarizes tha convo is: "most people of tha west misunderstand tha nature of consciousness bc we been brainwashed by a crude middle eastern desert cult for 2000 years"
This is like a Directors Cut of Neo’s conversation with the Architect lol.
I’ve listened to this video for more than 5 times.. I’m still trying to understand it..
That is uncannily accurate.
nobody would ever trust an architect with a germanic accent
This is what it would be like if Neo ate more of those red pills.
With a completely different director and screenwriter
The way Lex condenses the information into an analogy that us mortals can understand and then ask an insightful question is simply magnificent
This is like watching 100 Tedtalks in one seating
True
God, this feels like TED talks are the shadows in Platon's cave. There's material for 2 PhD Thesis here
@@wilLOCK I just watched something that winds the torroidal aspect of space with light and the creation of matter that will reverberate with all who want to know the truth about the universe and how things really work. These are some of the sharpest tools in the shed, so prepare for an amazing treat! ua-cam.com/video/M_qEhKL5cyc/v-deo.html (it will start at the torriodal part but back it up, the whole thing is great!) They go into quantum physics, electric nature of the sun, how planets are created and spit out, how matter created, etc. I'm so excited!!
👌👌👌👌👌
😂
Best conversation I’ve heard ... in my life
And I listen to 6 hours of podcasts all day
Thank you
He has an incredible ability to make models quickly
My name is also Troy, I also listen to podcasts for like 6 hours a day (I do deliveries), and this is also one of my favorites. Nice to meet you Max Troy, that must make me Lame Troy
sooo.. what part is actually profound? Its neat that they both have an ability - like a rapper being able to go with whatever and rhyme.. so they could probably go for who knows how long... but I'm interested in if they actually get to something new... i was impressed maybe 10 mins ago, I'm an hour in - and now im thinking he's stuck in the computer science mode. He's just going to keep explaining things in that language - its going to keep getting more complex until it breaks,. And he's hit that point - im thinking twice now..
@@gian2ooo some of us are always stuck in comp sci mode :(
It's up there for me too. Fairly staggering.
I’ve never seen Lex have to exert so much effort to keep up with the flow of insights from his guest.
Joscha's english is phenomenal for it not being his first langauge. He's literally a genius. Very inspiring, this gives me hope.
I typically prefer running podcasts/talks/interviews at 1.5x. This one ? 0.75x
Lol, exactly my experience. On this podcast I often have to pause, rewind, google terms :) Not complaining though
I also usually take it all in at 1.25X, this one I had to move down to real time.
haha, I was just thinking to myself that I often listen to podcasts at 1.8x, but this one 1x. Joshua's CPU clock / speech cadence seem to be about 80% faster than the typical human.
Same, first time when I have to decrease speed to 1.25
@@dmitrysamoylenko6775 1.25?? Dang, I was struggling with 1x (usually I'm listening 1.5-1.75). I had to double check after a break when I heard Joshua talking so fast lol
This guy is the most intelligent human I've ever listened to
Lex: "What is Real?"
Joscha:01001110 01101111 01110100 01101000 01101001 01101110 01100111
I feel the same way
Maybe only comparable to Feynman
Yup.
I said the same thing
Several timestamps of particularly interesting ideas during the conversation.
4:01 Nerd is someone who submits ideas to peer review when communicating. In contrast to negotiating alignment as typical people do.
24:52 Intelligence is the ability to make models of patterns and see the structure of those patterns. Some models are general.
25:35 Some of the problems are so general that a system that makes models needs to understand what itself is, how it relates to the environment. The cognitive system (you) have to model its own characteristics (attributes? personality traits?).
27:39 Self-awareness and intelligence are not the same thing.
Sentience / self awareness is an ability to make sense of the world and your place in it. In other words, it is possessing certain classes of models (models of yourself).
Intelligence - ability to develop these models if you do not already have them.
Conscious thought arises from a need to regulate surroundings that you are in.
When I know something about myself is when I model it. Part of my brain models what the other part is doing.
43:04 Category theory in mathematics - describing a set of fractals. First principle thinking: automata, number theory, spaces. Watch: Steven Wolfram cellular automata.
44:52 We are side effects of the regulation needs of monkeys. Regulation concerns the relationship between an organism and its surroundings which often consists of other organisms.
45:40 “Consciousness emerges over dimensions of disagreements with the universe” - understand consciousness as the conscious thought (in contrast to the conscious experience)(Lieberman, 2022)
52:08 Dalajlama is governmental software running on a human being. What model do you identify yourself with?
55:55 ‘Consciousness gives it colour, flavour’ - This is the conscious experience (in contrast to the conscious thought) (Lieberman, 2022)
58:40 Attention to the attention itself. Again, such self-referential mechanisms that pay attention to the attention itself is conscious thought. The term consciousness is being used idiosyncratically, interchangeably as the conscious thought and the conscious experience.
1:01:42 Space of concepts - Gardenfors would be handy here.
1:03:00 Wittgenstein, Minsky, common-sense reasoning. However, no recognition of taxonomic (classes of objects) and thematic (mutual appearance of objects) semantics.
1:07:00 Boltzman machines for building models. Networks which train Boltzman machines in a way that the number of constraints is not trivial. Possibility (vs. probability) of certain scenarios modelled as an effect of interaction of intentional agents?
1:09:00 Meta learning. The 1st wave of AI was writing an algorithm which implements the solution for an identified problem (chess). The 2nd wave is writing an algorithm which writes algorithms which implements the solution for an identified problem (go). The 3rd wave will be meta-learning = find an algorithm that discovers a learning algorithm for a given domain. Referring to Lieberman again, is meta-learning the conscious thought influencing the conscious experience? In other words, can meta-learning be understood as an effect of interaction between the prefrontal structures (dlPFC, OFC, ACC) and the Gestalt Cortex? As a result, the conscious experience of a given situation is modulated (as in modulating attention around 2:03:00).
1:23:05 We are intelligent over our timescale. From a perspective of trees or long-living ecosystems, we could be tools for releasing deposits of co2 back into the atmosphere.
1:25:25 Lions building more complex models of their surroundings than antelopes do? In a sense that antelopes cannot go extinct if lions are about to survive.
1:30:00 Closed cooling chains
1:41:12 Communities not die, they evolve
1:45:54 Frictionless governments
1:51:43 As a civilization, we push random buttons without knowing what they connect to.
1:57:14 Most people do not care about understanding themselves because they are adjusted well enough.
2:00:56 You are a machine that thinks that's you. It begs the question what is ‘you’. Is ‘you’ the one thinking or the one experiencing?
2:03:21 Meditation is a bunch of techniques which allow you to control attention. You can change how your attention works (i.e. you can change your conscious experience). As a side note, experience (perception) is for action, possibilities of action (affordances) are being perceived.
2:06:50 Dreaming systems that model constraints.
2:38:21 You act on models of your needs, not on your needs.
Thanks for your notes :)
Thanks for the effort.
Wow, you rock so hard! This is amazing. I realize it's selfish in nature so that you can get the info in your head and quickly reference it in future, but you choose to do it on a public platform and for that I thank you.
Thank you for these notes. You added to my enjoyment and understanding of this talk.
Wonderful notes my friend. I'll work on my own!
I love how this guy's eyes light up and grow bigger every few sentences, like he's blowing his own mind all the time.
I like his quote "it's important to think outside the box but also to understand the boxes"
We used Physics to deconstruct praying in religion which somewhat grants wishes by using the abilities of our frontal lob of our brains and hive mind to subconsciously influence others to achieve our wish. Now that you are outside the box and can see the box you can create new rules/ideas. 1. If the wish is not possible or you do not properly and effortlessly execute it then pray will probably not work for you 2. You can create methods like visualization of winning a race or getting a promotion and repeating the process will program your subconscious to make accurate decisions to achieve it while using hive mind, and the power of attraction to bring that possibility into reality. That is the importance of understanding the box, it allows you to sharpen your tools, verify they work, upgrade them, and use them efficiently.
Please have this guy on again, he was simply amazing.
simply... Somehow that adjective doesn't fit anywhere in the context :)
@@NationandState not all dots connect brother
Done :) !
The definition of intelligence that "it is the device by which we model the world" has made so much sense to me that I don't think I will ever forget about it. It finally makes sense why humans are what they are and what sets them apart from other organisms.
This guy has finally given me a framework for life I can really buy into and understand, This was completely fascinating and i am extremely thankful. I love the origin story too, the most creative/interesting people usually always have weird backgrounds.
This one section was a gem that I will always remember:
"Happiness is a cookie your brain bakes for itself. It's not made by the environment. The environment cannot make you happy. It's your appraisal of the environment that makes you happy. If you can change your appraisal of the environment, which you can learn to, you can create arbitrary moments of happiness."
Yeah, but this is ALWAYS used to justify oppression. The same thing was said in response to the abolitionist movement.
@@bucketiii7581 This is only meant to be on a personal level (eg. through meditation), not through leaders in government forcing you into a way of life detrimental to your wellbeing or inducing you into committing genocidal acts.
Mature makes me happy… the Humuingbird who comes over by me, trees, bees, butterflies. My Puppies, growing my garden of Organic nongmo food.. The tropical Hawaiian islands…. A lot!!! 🌿🌞💫
@@bucketiii7581 Operation Underground Railroad runs today, for children 💜🙏💫. Join, they are in every county
1 year later, do you still remember it? :)
My god the information density in Joscha's speech is incredible, but a lot to handle.
I wonder if this is a result of the language structure of the German mind. How German language has a tendency to layer comprehension and meaning by gluing words together.
his talk at the last CCC was also a really tour de force for my synapses. A lot of pausing and rewinding and pausing and rewinding etc...
ua-cam.com/video/e3K5UxWRRuY/v-deo.html
@@austinfromaustin320 that German language is a building block. More important is, to have small children "eating" through your local library /bibliothek. As there is nothing better to do when you grow up ....and sticking to it when growing up.
0.5-0.75 speed for me
thrylos32 SERIOUSLY!! That’s actually a wonderful idea. 💡
This is the kind of podcast you need a notepad and a pen to understand. The quality of conversation and ideas is enough for a premium lecture and i cant believe i can watch it, learn from it for free. Thank you Lex for creating the podcast and for inviting joscha bach to the podcast.
8:46 Nietzsche, understanding the comedy of your situation, lack of self-awareness, taking yourself (too) seriously as a function of your own misunderstanding, etc.. This section hit me (and my inflated ego) deeply. I feel exposed. Thank you.
He must’ve had many hours of answering his own questions. He is intelligent. Where he didn’t have a model, he made one. Really good thinker.
Lex's other guests are intelligent. This...this is something else.
The guy doesn't even pause after the unscripted questions by Lex. He's working on a whole other plane of intelligence.
Woah. I haven’t been exposed to such a nuanced combination of computer science and philosophy. Fascinating guest!
A wondrous area of the fractal to stumble upon, and to have the privilege of modeling it
You said it perfectly, and as if 'for me'! 👌👍
85% of videos I listen to at 1.5x - 2x speed. This is the ONLY video/podcast I've ever wanted to listen to at
Julian Maldonado Nirvana
Hear hear!
our way of expressing these concepts always attracts me, and nothing, but nothing compares with it-- the tone, the depth of spirituality, I can't put it into words. Your Manifesting Manual is something I can read over and over and soak up. ua-cam.com/users/postUgkxzpa8CIfZcihW4Z0F_ja0QF3W9KIatrsq I am in process of making the routine a solid part of my life, and it has made a difference! I LOVE your 12 meditations too! I know I am a different person after 9 months with Super Manifestor, and in process of continued positive change! You deserve accolades every day of the year! Keep on with everything, and as we say in Spanish, ANIMO! Lots of love and every blessing to you both.
This was my first time listening to this podcast and he answered the questions I’ve spent pondering for most of the past 6 decades on the meaning of life and if there is a god so beautifully and simply. I love the analogy about happiness being a cookie. He spoke to the issues I’ve had about the Genesis story and so much more in a straightforward simple manner without resorting to the standard line given by religious leaders that we must have “faith”. I do appreciate his honesty and knowledge and the simplicity of his answers and his understanding of different cultures and beliefs. I really appreciate Lex and his honesty and integrity and his pursuit of understanding of people and that he isn’t seeking to place a judgment on, good or bad, or cast blame on or promote or elevate people that he interviews but rather seeks to expose the truth, the reality and the humanity in each and every person. He leaves it to the viewers to form their own opinions, their own judgments, if one finds it necessary to judge others. He also explains his own thoughts and feelings and motivations and seeks to truly understand and empathize with each individual as a human being. None of us are perfect. Thankfully. We are each different and have had our own unique experiences, which we each absorb and respond to in our own ways. We should all be more open minded and seek to follow Lex’s example. Allow ourselves to be awed by each other, to find our own “cookies” of happiness without harming others, verbally, emotionally, mentally or physically.
I tried to think of words to articulate how much I love this dude but I couldn't come up with deserving words to express how awesome he is. I lost count of the number of times he generated a spark in my brain
Normally Lex can give his guests a run for their money, regardless of their caliber, but with this guy his brain had to run on overclock for 3 hrs just to be able to ask an adequate question - loved it! :) Keep it up, Lex!
peep how hard fridman stay sweatin thru tha full duration of tha discussin lmao 🥵🥵🥵 bach n tha sheer staggering power of purebred unrestrained german autism got his ass on tha ropes from beginning 2 end 🤣🤣🤣
scary intelligent idd... wonderful!
After 7 months of carefully dissecting this video I think it’s safe to say that none of us are ready for a part 2 yet.
Right . . . !
It's bonkers. Digesting what Joscha says half the time is crazy. Is it possible to fall in love with a mind? I think I have.
@@andrewwright1922
? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?
Is it possible to fall in L O V E
with a mind ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?
? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?
Y E S . I t ' s very possible . ------
@@reubennichols644 holy shit this comment made me feel high =D
Well, it's out now 🙂
38:06 this was me for basically the whole podcast LOL I'm so glad you had the opportunity to have this conversation, and thanks for sharing it
Watch Lex's brain break in real time and come back with "what.....is....real?" I felt that lol
I could listen to Joscha talk all day. He can talk of anything. I'd just listen and not say a word. What a sharp and beautiful mind.
Never imagined that an artificial intelligence podcast would offer such
incredible insights into general natural intelligence and the nature of reality.
Joscha's poetic coherence and Lex's romanticism make this podcast seem like a simulation within a simulation.
I've been listening to this channel for a while now. This is the greatest. And consider his guest roster and what that says.
@@dannywest8843 There was no insights - total rubbish.
yea.. and im wondering if they'll ever quit going into the same simulation. If they understand you can jump from simulation to simulation - jump into the real one and stop relying on the language of the ones you jumped from -- because theyre going in circles getting more and more complex - this is wrong, or dumb. They need to move towards simplicity. He should know this if he keeps talking about fractals.
@Mr. E Just a brainless post-modernist take on reality. "Nothing is real - it's all in your head". His entire psuedo-intellectual gobblygook is based on one fact - everything we experience comes through our brain. Duhhhh. He goes on to say nothing is real, you can never see truth, colours aren't real - what an idiot. Everything you see contains reality, and everything you experience contains truth. Practice critical thinking and that ratio of imagination to truth improves to favour truth. Consensus does a great job of checking your brain against other brains. Next! No more bullshit needs to be spun from the "we experience with our brains" fact.
Sometimes it takes an hour or so for someone to even mention AI :D. Not as much Artificial Intelligence Podcast as just Life and Philosophy Podcast hosted by a guy who happens to be very interested in AI :D.
This makes me so thankful for the internet.
Yeah I was on the fence, but in consideration of this video, I guess, the internet can stay.
I feel foolish to even comment on the content here. This is, without question, the most densely-packed thought-provoking three hours of information I have ever experienced. I may never unpack it all but it has me fighting so incredibly hard to force new neural pathways so to better understand anything, old or new, to the point I feel similar to the way I did when learning things as a teenager. This was a borderline childish experience for me. Experiencing Joscha for the first time will continue to be an immense joy.
This guest says more complex and deep abstract concepts so quickly and perfectly and never says um, uh, or anything to the point where I've rarely seen someone so amazing 👏🙀 Don't you love it when you hear about a new Author or an interesting field of study..well this Scientist amazes me. So thankful to you Lex for having him on.🙏
I think this may be the 3rd or 4th video I've ever commented on...
This is the best discussion I have ever heard in my life, that I can currently recall.
Thanks for letting me hear this Lex
@@losmaldonado9655 Yes, how did you manage to violate the first law of thermodynamics! Eager physicists want to know!
What are other 3 videos?
Plot twist: "The Turing test is basically a test of the conjecture whether people are intelligent enough to understand themselves"
@@NationandState depp
I lost the time stamp, do you know when he says that?
@@wilLOCK 27:10
Not 100% sure why but i find this hilarious
Joscha Bach has every single answer at the ready. He never has to reflect, even for a second. Absolutely amazing.
This is still my favorite interview on The Lex Fridman Podcast.
This was one of the best 3+ hours that I've ever spent watching anything.
This guy is unbelievably brilliant. Probably the best guest you've ever had on Lex.
@@Robocop-qe7le how is cramming al this knowledge in a 3 hour podcast not communicating effectively? He got lots of complicated ideas across in record time imo.
@@Robocop-qe7le he is a genius dont be ridiculous.
Robocop2015 I think you need to rewatch. This was incredible to behold and ponder. He does not need to be correct, I found myself at odds with many things he said. Many of these quests do not [yet] have answers.
@@Robocop-qe7lejust like you, I used to believe that ppl who are extremely smart, talk fast, explain things way too complicated for "normal ppl" like me are just arrogant and want to be seen as intelligent. but i was wrong and just intimidated by their intelligence. they really just are like this and are cognitively superior. thats why their explanations seem trivial to them but complex to others
boy oh boy 😂
This dude is the most intelligent person alive, I'm not exaggerating.
I can't believe mr Bach doesn't have a teleprompter in front of him. He's like a live audiobook on 1.5x speed.
I just slowed down the playback speed. Thanks for giving me the idea 👍
"I think that Nietzsche is the classical equivalent of a shitposter" This dude is a riot.
He also said that he wouldnt want to work on what others are working, he’d rather spend that time on beach. Haha
I friggin' love his comment about Nietzsche
Finally someone said it.
Truly the best guest ever I’ve spent hours and hours listening to this one and rewinding it to listen again, this guy needs to come back and be a regular guest.
Exactly
By far my favourite conversation with Lex. I keep coming back to it. Joshua Bach is another level smart. Just to point out, both of these guys are talking in their second languages.
Same. This is a high density, quality conversation.
This will always be one of lexs most mind blowing interviews and I’ve seen almost all them.
I love this guy. He is SO CERTAIN of his place in the world and what the world is he almost convinces me that I’m not even really here at all!
Wow, listening to Joscha Bach is like trying to take a drink from an information fire hose. Thanks!
Episode 100: this is the best episode ever
Episode 101: this is the bst episode ever
My weekend data science project is to develop an algorithm, analyze this data you provide, and make a projection of the most likely thing that will be said about episode 102. And I'd better work fast, because Lex is cranking them out fast :)
Now proceed to Awe by induction
Episode 102: this is the bt episode ever
I cant belive how good those 2 episodes are good
Cannot agree more
Lex, this one with Bach was outstanding. Please interview him again. Bach and Jim Keller are both par excellence!
The most interesting conversation I have ever listened to. Started listening to it while going for a walk and found that I needed to focus so much that I could not walk and listen at the same time. Every sentence that comes out of Joshua’s mouth is deeply interesting and deserves a good amount of thought to digest. What an incredible podcast!
I love how Joscha says something profound and widens his eyes lol.
It’s so subtle to a lot of people, but I love these moments with him.
Also, when he says" when scientists are 'lucky' enough" .... i could've swore he said 'lackey' enough .... which also makes much sense in context
Haha yes
@@fattyjaybird7505 yeah I agree 👍
William Buckley did that eye pop emphasis as well.
Listen to thousands of hours of intellectual conversations and I think this guy takes the cake. Most of what he's saying is not theory, provable within our own minds
Joscha is such an eloquent and brilliant speaker. His responses were so rapid and well thought out, it astounds me how he gained so much knowledge and has such a breadth of understanding of so many worldly issues. I don't agree every cell is a turing machine yet, but the analogy is incredible. All of these interviews Lex performs highlight my ignorance and laziness, but it still makes me happy to know there are those of you seizing every second of life.
This is my 3rd time listening. Its just like throwing a baseball, you have to repeat the activity in order to get it into the subconscious.
I lost count. Should be more than 20.
Still watching it every 2 months or so. Esp. the first 1-1.5 hour.
Best podcast ever. I was having a bad day and then what he said about being a nerd and relating to people really made so much sense and it made me feel better about things. And then the rest of it _completely_ blew my mind. I never donate to anything but I feel like since this is probably the best thing in my life its unethical to _not_ donate to the Patreon so I did.
Right? Just altered my reality significantly.
hi , nerd here as well, in the spirit of gifting information i would like to suggest
ua-cam.com/users/fcumminsvideos (cognitive science)
ua-cam.com/channels/yOZmV5gC74-1m3iQFUC6DQ.html (cogntive psychology)
more reality altering stuff :P
@@fukkyouthatswhy thank you fellow nerds! Gonna geek out now lol
Man, this guy has fundamentals in almost every field. I am mind blown. Thank you Lex for this podcast.
Extraordinary podcast. I don't think I've ever stopped and rewound a podcast this many times and I am only an hour in!
58:30 - 59:08 Most aphoristic description of mindfulness ever. People who know everything and don't make a big deal out of it are so fun to listen to.
Agreed. And once you get to the point of mindfulness in your life. It's so obvious how many people don't pay attention to whether they pay attention and are just majoritarily reflexive.
I always think I'm highly intellectual, then I watch a Lex Fridman podcast.
Sorts that out real quick 😂
I feel like a monkey when I listen to them. Normally I'd consider myself somewhat intellectual.
hahahaha true
Truly transcendental experience. No single school, book, event or conversation can be as insightful and eye opening as these 3 hours.
Opened me to so many new ideas, philosophies, ideologies and perspective. How can this guy be real and i have not heard of him?
It was like a land mine exploding inside my mind every time Joscha was dropping ideas (or bombs).
According to me, he is the result of many philosophers, computer scientists, physicists & mathemeticians in one. He should be the benchmark for human intelligence, period!
Krishnamurti comes to mind
100%, honestly, I'm continually surprised that he doesn't have a higher profile than he does. I think he'll be recognized very soon in the broader public sphere of science as one of the all-time greats. He's still young too, by intellectual/great thinker standards.
question 🙋… a neurone is just particles passing through a membrane.. a computer 💻 and all it’s processing can be done with just valves buckets pipes and water. A touring machine is just punch tape and 🕳…. How can consciousness “emerge” from these things…? This guy is a joke in my opinion.
@@mrbwatson8081 I understand that you are incredulous, but if there is a computable explanation of consciousness, then that does mean that any Turing-complete system of sufficient size could be arranged in a way for it to create conscious experience, even your valves buckets pipes and water example. The system would have to be gigantic and the processing would be very slow, but we already know that in principle, such a system can learn to solve novel problems, since one can let an artificial intelligence run on such an arrangement - if you have some means of producing the "input" into that system.
Whether we come to the conclusion that consciousness can be fully explained in terms of computation depends on whether there is any aspect of consciousness that appears unreproducable in a computational framework. The things that are (commonly) most arguable here are Qualia, and Dr. Bach argues that Qualia are likely produced by the brain as part of a simulation that serves to integrate both pre-processed sensory information and the associated meaning with the scenes, objects, sounds, people, etc that were detected during that processing. So the Qualia are then "loaded into" that simulation together with the objects and so on. We as conscious creatures identify with the symbols within that internal simulation, most(ly) with the representation of our own body within that simulated world.
@@nornront8749 so you seriously think valves pipes buckets and water can be put together in such a way that consciousness would emerge…? Who in their right mind could believe that…? Seriously 😐… why is it when it comes to consciousness people think it’s plausible to hypothesise such stupidity 🤪…! You think valves pipes buckets and water can be arranged in such a way that consciousness would emerge😂🤣 ….. 🪄 🎩 🐇 .. what makes you think that it’s even plausible…? “Depends on weather there is any aspect of consciousness that appears unreproducible in computational framework” 🤣😂🤣 you moron consciousness is experiential show me some computation that can experience itself…? 🤣 I think when you was a little boy,you spent a bit too much time alone with your computer. What gives you the notion that a computer can experience anything..? Does a calculator experience calculating when you press = ..? 🤣
"You're not continuous. You're just a machine that thinks that you are you."
Dude... This connects directly to what I've been thinking about what makes or creates the sensation of "I". There's no continuity of it. There's just... Like... A set of principles that guides my actions in the world. And they're not even stable, as much as I try to make them stable. I never know how I'm going to wake up. Who I'm going to be in the next few hours... Holy crap... What am I attached to, then?
Dude drops truth bombs like Santa drops candy. I'd never thought of myself as a particularly stupid person, but this man's brain is so beyond my own I feel like a starfish staring at the Sun.
😁starfish have difficulty staring at the sun. They don’t have eyes, they have eyespots, with no lenses. They can make out crude shapes of bright and dark areas.
His point exactly
Lex that was figuratively mind blowing! I mean - I had to actually pause a few times towards the end just to wrap my mind around the brilliant gems just gushing out of Joscha. OMG! Especially the last half hour! I have been struggling with these issues my entire life and went back to college to become a molecular biologist just to find the Cell is the answer as well. This brilliant human just validated everything I have been. slaving to uncover for 40 years - just exceptional Lex. Thank you so much. And if you ever start a hidden realm like John Galt - please, please come get me! I'm ready to go!
Edit- I actually have watched this 2x now all the way through. Just ...I can't even...life affirming. I seriously agree 100% with Joscha...get it completely yet...blows my mind.
Woah.
@@mobsnitchanonymous213 really? Someone who does not even adhere to the basic principles of his own method.
Master your primary instrument, Mind, Consciousness. MASTER, not tell a story about it.
99.99% of so called acientists can not even stop their own thoughtflow for 30 seconds, eyes open, let alone for hours on end.
Not a clue what consciousness is. You cant know what swimming is by looking at a picture of a swimming person.
Read my post elsewhere to some links that clarify this.
NO AI, not our tiny minds, are going to save us from extinction.
Did the politics, the religion, the science, the philosophy or the technology of the lizard make it create wings?
Yes, the answer is in the cells, and nature will take care of it, by forcing us with our backs against the wall, to evolve into Cosmic Consciousness. And that is only an intermediate step.
@@hammerstrumm thats why his language is so key; makes art of science...poetic and epic.
And to imagine, their great grandparents probably fought and killed each other in ww2, and now we have such great minds meeting and discussing science , philosophy and solving great problems in our societies. Imagine how much faster the world would have developed had we spent money and time in building and progressing, instead of fighting wars.
Well said.
And what the point of this development? Where do you wanna be at the end of the day? Without wars, there still would have been kings and peasants.
How are you so sure this is not BECAUSE of the wars? That's the dilemma to me
was usual before the wars
great grand parents? p sure it'd be their grand parents
I have listened to this episode twice. Second time far more intently. Really insightful, entertaining and practical. Thank you Lex
This podcast series is one of the best in the world. So many brilliant people sharing their views, can't get any better than this. Thanks a lot for producing these.
This dude is so far up there... I aspire to even comprehend how he models the world.
Once we all have Neurolinks implanted, maybe you will be able to! haha
Sufficient meditation is all that's required
@@gabegabriel9288 Not at all, meditation doesn't teach you about cognitive science or artificial intelligence, they compliment each other greatly. A monk will understand the universe to a lesser degree than this man, even if he understands himself better.
@@pickledpope I must disagree with you here! Science deals with the "objective world", however all "objective" ideas exist within the subjective experience. Meditation is about examining the universe, not from the perspective of ideas, but realising than all intellectual thoughts and ideas are comprised of sensations. Enlightenment is about understanding this on an experiencial not intellectual level. The true building blocks of reality are sensations, not atoms or fundamental particles. As all these are concepts and ideas that are comprised of sensations within conciousness. To further illustrate my point, all scientific ideas exist within your own conciousness, how can you get to the bottom of reality by adding ideas on top of idea on top of ideas, when to get to the fundamental building blocks we need to deconstruct the only reality we have: the subjective experience into its constituent sensations.
@@pickledpope to clarify I'm not against scientific ideas at all or saying they aren't true, I'm just saying that they exist on a different higher level of abstraction than the experiencial truth that is revealed through meditation. These ideas are tremendously useful and should obviously be studies and advanced. But *fundamental* truth exists in the experience as it is, not as higher level abstractions.
This guy is the smartest guy ive ever heard speak to break down these ideas. Thank you for sharing him
My thoughts exactly. Joscha seems to be the personification of rational thought. Its as if he has become the very thing he is trying to achieve (AGI)
It's amazing to hear Joscha talking about these complicated subjects with such a humble confidence and using normal English words! If our consciousness is a "software" construct, does that mean that individuals with Dissociative Personality Disorder and Alien Hand Syndrome have a "multi tasking" brain that runs two implementations at the same time?
Maybe not two separate processes but a single fractured process.
This is one of my favorites so far. What a brilliant conversation! I love watching Lex's mind get blown!
"when you take yourself seriously and you're not functional, it ends in tragedy"
ua-cam.com/video/wZTGh35kioQ/v-deo.html
Odds Trump is listening to this podcast: 1 in 1.300000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000...
This podcast should be a six part mini series. It's just impossible to comprehend the shear amount of complex brilliance he has bestowed upon us. I am at awe completely mind blown, I have never in my 45 years on this Earth encountered somebody so intelligent and fascinating.
Yeah watched this about 20 times.
35 year old philosophy student and geek, everyone needs to stfu and just listen to Joscha, once they get him they can proceed lol
The question at 7:54 and the answer… forced my finger to press the like button !!
I already listened to this episode 3 times (while long-distance driving), and plan to do it again this year. I hope to one day understand everything Joscha says here :)
I want the URL to this video written on my tombstone.
LMAO
Same
😂😂😂😂❤❤❤❤👌👌👌👌
Right now...? ;-)
Damn so true
If you listen to Joscha long enough you start thinking like him. He has a very pragmatic and analytical way of thinking, but he is cheerful and playful at the same time and I like it when he is talking about his kids and in the very end of the interview his interpretation of Genesis as a portrayal of childhood memories.
This talk was amazing, I have watched it 3 times already just to give myself time to internalize everything.
Also tried to discuss the topics with others to see if i can explain it to them, those failures brought me back to refresh my memory and understanding.
Please get Joscha on the podcast again! What an amazing amazing guy!
48:01- Lex (with existential dread on his face): "But hold on a second! Do I exist?" This is gold.
Edit: 1:27:19 - Lex (unironically): "But maybe the trees are the ones who made the phones." This just keeps on giving!
This gentleman might just be one of if not the smartest individuals I've ever heard speak in my life, this podcast is just wow I keep keeping back to it learning more each time and realizing how true the stuff he says is based on my experiences.
Yes but he has no chill
the mind of this man is beyond the stratosphere; i'm utterly captivated..thank you, Lex..both of you are stars in my version of heaven..
A life-changing discussion and definitely one of your very best. I would love to know more about Joscha Bach's childhood story and how he ended up becoming such a singular mind (his effortless intelligence is almost intimidating), there are brilliant minds and there is Bach.
Well that altered my perception of perception
metaception
I'm gonna watch it a few more times. The concentration of ideas per minute is extreme.
What an epic interview this is. I've listened to it many times now. It's still bending my mind in a most pleasing and peculiar way.