The 4-piece tier set bonus for resto sham was more impactful than the covenant abilities. Free instant cast chain heals when I dropped most of my totems was what made the class super comfy. This led to some super charged cloud burst healing. As soon as they disabled tier set bonuses, rsham feels awful at 299 ilvl.
Resto shaman just feels bad now for those of us who only really do M+. Primordial wave is the only covenant ability we kept and it only is good in raid. In keys it's horrible, which leaves us with acid rain and stormkeeper. Acid rain is just a worse version of vesper totem, and it also feels bad to use in keys. Stormkeeper doesn't even have the mastery effect that ele gets so it is incredibly weak. Not to mention we lost the chain heal tier set which was AMAZING in how it felt and how it finally incorporated chain heal use in keys which before was never pressed.
The 4 piece free chain heal casts was what made Resto Shaman so clean to play. That's a big miss, and the damage can be tuned... but we have all hard casts for our damage where most other healers dont which is what makes the low numbers feel extra bad
@L Historically Rdru plays cat for damage, and disc heals through damage so they technically do hardcast dps spells, but it doesn't take away from their healing. I would count these two in addition to Pala and Monk
Shamans already have a strong talent for periods of lots of aoe healing , high tide. People really underestimate the talent, but during high frequency healing situations high tide activates almost every 15 seconds; and having 2 fully empowered chain heals every 15-20 seconds is very strong. The only downside is playing around positioning, which you should already do because of healing rain.
I do have a gut feeling that when I watch reviews of the resto shaman class in Dragonflight some things are being overlooked. I think this is one of them but also totemic recall with earthen wall seems like a great thing to press to mitigate damage. To me, it seems like the number of impactful CD presses has just multiplied with respect to the SL version. Two talents, however; mentioned, Downpour and Ever-Rising Tide, I'm not sure why these, especially the later, would ever be picked as they both seem like such weak talents.
@@machinedreams9625 Totemic Recall is a very powerful cooldown indeed. And I actually like ERT for m+, it can help you pump out more damage with the extra haste and it's a really short cooldown. Shaman is all about cooldwon usage, as you always have something powerful to do. Stuns, Knock Ups, Damage mitigation etc. means that good shaman players are always contributing meaningfully to encounters.
I feel you. People don't use that talent and want to keep dpsing as healer. High tide is a saver, for me, personally, its waaay better than ascendance. You can top life your friends easily. Even in raid, if you fully heal 5 of your mates, its better than heal a little bit of everyone.
1/24/23 Restoration Healing Tide Totem healing now increased by 100% while not in a raid. Healing Wave healing increased by 6%. Acid Rain damage increased by 120%. Flame Shock damage increased by 20%. Lava Burst damage increased by 20%. Master of the Elements increases the effectiveness of the Shaman’s next Nature, Physical, or Frost spell by 20% (was 10%). Developers’ note: These changes for both Elemental and Restoration are aimed at improving their capabilities in dungeon content. We feel Restoration is lacking in reactive healing as well as damage contribution, so we’re increasing single target heals and a few damage abilities and talents. We’re also increasing the effectiveness of Master of the Elements, which is intended to encourage weaving in damage spells while healing.
I think you might want to consider looking at Totemic Recall, Totemic Projection, Living Streams alongside the Awakening and Earthliving Weapon talents. Projection allows you to make spells like Earthen Wall Totem or SLT much more effective because you can move the totems with the group out of swirls. Totemic Recall can get you 2x EWT at the same time, or 3 Healing Stream Totems at once (4 if you also grab Creation), which adds up to a LOT of on-demand throughput to deal with burst events. Shaman feels like a mix of 2 approaches: proactive (HST, EWT, Riptides, Stoneskin) vs. reactive (AG, Ascendance, SLT). Cloudburst and Healing Rain feel very clunky in 5-mans in DF. Thanks again for sharing your thoughts on Shaman.
Ancestral Guidance + Stormkeeper + Cloudburst felt very strong in M+ 15-20 past few weeks. Seems worth a mention when talking healing cooldowns. Maybe I was padding that with Vesper Totem, but Id still expect it to be felt. Has been my main CD.
My problem with the resto shaman it's just feels a dumber version of SL resto shaman. It's not about the numbers, more likely the talents. It feels like a chaos a lot of good things on paper, but in practice it just feels bad. I had this feeling at the start of BFA with my Aff lock, when all of my cool abilitys came from the artifact weapon and my class was naked shit at the start of the new expansion.
Mana spring totem is useless as long as it stays 33 mana per riptide and lava burts. I find the whole talent tree bloated just getting things I had three weeks ago back. Cloudburst for me is a no go now, too long CD. My biggest grip is that we HAVE to take earthen harmony for Ascendance. Earthen harmony is next to useless.
I think mana spring could potentially be useful in raid environments because only healers need the mana. It might make having more then one shaman deliver a fair amount of mana. However; I agree, one mana spring on its own, restores mana for beans.
Thank you for making these videos its helped alot in me deciding what classes to prioritize, It saddens me to hear that Resto shaman(which is my favorite healer, barring Drakthyr since I haven't tried it) but I'm glad that Blizz at least seems aware of the tuning issue.
Remember when everyone thought the 4pc tier in shadowlands was absolute dog shit then turns out it was actually pretty awesome! I think resto shaman will be fine people are just worried bc we were spoiled. We will get something or are overlooking something and everything will be fine. I just 2 chested a 23 GD with like 9k hps and 7.2k dps. I also never dropped below 50% mana and never like freaked out if someone was gonna die to my class/healing abilities.
For aoe I'm still surprised that they didn't just take elementals liquid magma totem, uncapped it's aoe and gave it in that form to both of the specs. Would fix both their uncapped aoe problem
I hope shaman still excels in raids. I am coming back for DF after dropping shadowlands and I had hope for my favorite class. I don't care as much about M+ as long as I can do my weeklys without issue, but if its shit in raids I will have to change directions.
If they made healing raid/acid rain instant cast, I think it would be better, and we should also get an oh shit instant cast healing spell like other healers. I have always mailed rsham, and will continue to do so, but they do feel very clunky atm.
I've been feeling a little lackluster in the DPS compartment, when I look at the damage other healers are doing in M+. Stormkeeper helps, for sure, but acid rain doesn't feel as strong as it used to at the end of SL. Maybe that's just me.
Shaman is the first class that really clicked for me so I'm a bit disappointed I was still thinking about maining it but Im leaning to alt now. And maybe not even that because I only really have time for 1 or 2 characters.
Stormkeeper isn't even a dps cool down.:/ It currently does the same damage as just spending three gcds on lightning bolt or chain lightning. It definitely needs a buff or won't be worth taking.
I was really hoping for a return to some level of quick casting, chain heal goodness with this expac. Very much disliked cloud + primordial wave play style, but doesn’t seem to be in the cards (yet?). Primordial wave seems odd spell for toolkit despite its incredible use, esp maximizing effectiveness. Most fun I actually ever had was hard mode DSoul - quick, fast healing spells + HRain + moving LB for mana return, wow what an amazing time to play that class. Always casting, always balling, and very shamwow feeling, as anecdotal as that is.
I personally hate that healers now are all about how much dmg can they output whilst keeping the group alive. They are healers they should be tuned around healing. just remove the dmg abilities and give them more utility or something in its place give them maybe the dmg buffs instead for example. I know this is a bit of a spicy take just from my experience I’ve found when healing that I want to just heal and keep the group up I don’t want to have to weave in dmg.
i really dont like shammy aoe healing they have pretty much nothing chain heal isnt so good holy priest can crank them and druid has wild growth witch i think is the best aoe heal in game shammy just feels meh i do like their mastery tho
I liked the video was interesting. Alot of talk about dmg, dmg, dmg, dmg, that's great if you're in the 0.5% of players (who really don't need videos to tell them how all healers play, they know they are filling the groups in beta you're not in). So how is shaman for the other 99.5% of players for actually healing a regular bunch of buds or a pug group in M+?
Damage matters, get over it. Or, another way to look at it, if you aren’t in a situation where damage matters, which class you play probably doesn’t either, so rejoice!
@@borkguy Kellin has the right of it. If you don't care about damage because it's irrelevant to the key content you're pushing, then you are in a position where you can play literally any healer.
@@borkguy Get over what exactly? I am guessing your part of the 0,5% people? Perhaps fanboy/fangirl. Damage is not super important for the healer unless your pushing world first keys never have I ran a +25 or below and thought omg thank goodness my healer pulled that big 7k dps overall or we would not have timed the key rofl.
@@MrMadman111 i think all of us had this moments, when you barely kill boss and/or manage to finish key in time with like 10 seconds left to spare. In moments like that i like to think, that every little damage that i made as a healer helped us to make it to the sweet victory
There's a guy above who wrote a comment, he wants to tell you his life story about how great he is and never does damage. Go talk to him, please. It will distract him and nobody else wants to do it.
Idk why but to me Growl gives off strong sassy gay friend vibes. I'm not saying I think you are gay, or care if you are/arent. There's just something about you that makes me think you're about to z-snap and talk about my clothes being out of style. And yeah they took way too many abilities out of the spellbook because "gotta come up with exactly 61 talents, no matter what. So what if we didnt start working on them until 3 months before the game releases? It'll be fine." Some basic talents are split into 3 pointers and some seriously powerful and legendary effects are easy to get 1 pointers. It was just done so late and haphazardly that the talent trees feel good in concept but not like they're going to be what they could have.
After maining shaman for a number of expansions, the changes to the toolkit has destroyed the class for me. I played the class because of it's toolkit and how satisfying it was to fully use that toolkit. With the changes, I can't... CAN'T... get the same toolkit back. Everything about that feels like complete shit. It feels horrible. Nothing is more frustrating than a situation coming up where you have a utility spell for it but you can't use it because you didn't have the talent for it. Even stuff like doing world is just frustrating if you get a mob that fears and you don't have tremor totem. Will is make or break you? No, but that doesn't change the fact that it feels like shit. Shaman's talent tree represents the most regressive and shallow design of any of the talent trees. Aside from not being able to get the full toolkit you had before, you are now going to have to micro manage your utility constantly. I don't know who thought that would be fun. Previously, it was about skill and gameplay to effectively use your skills at the right time. Now, before you step foot in a dungeon or get ready for a raid boss fight, you have to do even MORE bullshit to make sure that you have the right utility selected. God forbid you do a dungeon that has more diverse mechanics than what you can pick up in utility.
While I agree the removal of abilities was bad and clearly because 'we need to have enough talents to make them have "meaningful choices,"(a term they like but dont actually understand) the idea that "Shaman's talent tree represents the most regressive and shallow design of any of the talent trees" is extremely questionable. Overall the Shaman design was rather well liked by the community, you can see this on Liquid Maximum's channel when he had a panel of shamans on to discuss it, as well as many other videos, comment threads, and articles. It has many powerful talents, most of which are one point, but is just too bloated by the amount of utility taken away and then forced back in through talents. This makes getting a "full" feeling kit very difficult. The "two point tax" to get to your keystones is bad but far from unique to shaman and at least most of those are useful and most bad ones can be routed around. Others do not have this luxury. Priests, to be able to get to their keystone "Power Word: Life" which is a great new spell have to take a two point talent that reduces the cast time of smite and flash heal by 10% BUT only when above 75% health. Its basically a dead talent that just eats up two points and doesnt even provide that much CDR ontop of being heavily conditional. That's not all though, on the other side to be able to take Mindgames they have to take another two point talent that makes shadow word pain do 6% more damage. That would be about a .5% throughput increase for two points. And neither of these can be routed around, you only have one path in to each keystone. In the druid tree there is no way to make it from moonkin or resto to the bottom left keystone at all. You have to take a full set of feral talents to be able to do so, and even then you're delegated a specific route. Its a hybrid class known for its multirole ability that can no longer use most of its forms.. Worse yet, for a moonkin or healer with the affinity to take their kick, skull bash, they have to take 8 points of feral talents, most of which are dead and punctuated by a 3 point node that gives 2% armor and physical damage per point, which is 100% dead for those caster classes. There is intentionally a decision to make kick a 4 point talent for all druids. THAT is amazingly bad design, even specs that previously did have it now have to choose if its worth it. They also have 3 3-point nodes and they're all in position to block off important abilities- skull bash, cyclone and heart of the Wild. There are many more examples but these are just among the healers specifically. Dps and tanks both have plenty of examples as well. I am unimpressed by the system and think it needed a lot of time to go through iteration cycles to be made into something worthwhile, and unfortunately we didn't get that. But, being melodramatic is not going to help or get people to take you seriously. It might be the one you care about the most, and it might not be very good in areas but its far from the worst. By now everyone has heard that "my spec is the worst and needs to be fixed right now" about every single spec in the game. If you want them to listen, give them something to listen to: Explain exactly what is wrong, why and what would fix it.
@@booradley6832 Liquid Max is the absolute worst possible person to represent the "community". He's playing a completely different game than the rest of us and it's a part of the game that is only played by an extreme minority of the players. To put it bluntly, what he says or doesn't say is representative of a world first raiding guild and not the "community". Of all the classes, shaman was one of the worst, if not the worst, class when it comes to having baseline abilities being taken away and being turned into talents. That alone makes it one of the laziest and worst trees of all classes. I have yet to find a single person to bring a valid argument for why this is acceptable let alone a good design. It's lazy and it destroys the entire gameplay of the class. If they can't take the time to create talent trees that don't rely on removing 3/4's the toolkit, then they shouldn't be doing what they are doing. You can talk about 2 point and 3 point nodes, but you are already so far past the red flags and problems with these new trees. The problem starts with the fake complexity. They've flooded the trees in an effort to force complexity but at the same time, it added so little depth that it's worthless. But it's actually worse than that. These talent trees were specifically designed for people like Max. People who can and will invest the time to actually care about the difference between a 2 point and 3 point talent or micromanaging talents. When you design the game for 1% of the playerbase, it's not a good design. Blizzard is trying to once again compete against the simming tools. Add enough variables to the formula and the sims can't function. The problem is that in their efforts to attack the simming tools, they've made it so incomprehensibly hard for a player to know what abilities and talents to pick that it's a shit show. l The most frustrating thing about these new talent trees is that they'll abandon them soon enough just like they abandoned the talent system they replaced which was ALSO a system that was designed to be used going forward.
But Max wasnt the one doing the analysis, he's the moderator and has community experts of the class come on to do it for each spec. High end raiders, class discord standouts, etc. Literally everyone got everything taken away. Shaman having more buttons means they lost more, but nobody came away with much at all. Its not even like Shamans lost more of their base kit. Druids forgot how to cast two of their four basic dps spells (sunfire, starfire,) warriors dont know any of their stances, there's a good example for every class. Lots of other classes had basic functionality of abilities split into multi point nodes. The lack of a base kit is a universal complaint no matter who the class is. Saying "its built for people like Max" as if that's a bad thing. They're trying to make it so that you can easily play the game without knowing every interaction but if you want to push it further to do the hardest possible content you have to engage with the talents and push for the extra 1%. "Easy to learn, hard to master" Is held up as the ideal design. Even if it is like that, playing a class well will always outdo playing the best possible spec but not being able to execute the incredibly demanding rotation, i.e. bloodtalons druid. There is no paywall or even information wall preventing you from being as good as you can be, everything is out there, people are directly telling you how to do it and with what. There is no great handicap on just shamans. If anything them no coming away with 3/4 covenant abilities is hurting them more than anything else. You're just going play the victim with no substance to your conviction. Its fairly clear you havent looked around to see how bad it is for all but a few classes and have no frame of reference but just want to throw a tantrum, so enjoy the expansion hopefully it drives people like you to have some introspection or just go away.
@@booradley6832 No offense, but I think you are more caught up in the fact that I'm disagreeing rather than actually addressing anything that I'm saying. What's worse is that all you are doing is barking out that a couple of people told you that it was good and like a good little sheep, you followed them. If all you can do is keep repeating "well, Max's stream said it was great, so it's great", then we can just save everyone's time by just ignoring you. In all of your longwinded replies, you have not addressed a single complaint that I've brought up. At best, you've dismissed it by saying "everyone got everything taken away" without even the slightest hint that exactly what you just described is a problem. How oblivious can you be? I fucking hate that everything got taken away and think it's lazy and regressive for the game. Do you think it somehow makes it better that every class had things taken away? You don't think through what you are posting. [Saying "its built for people like Max" as if that's a bad thing. ] Yes, let's design the game for less than 1% of the playerbase. Wait, no, don't do that. That's fucking dumb. How could you possibly think that what you just posted had any merit to it at all? You have to think through what you are saying because apparently, you don't realize that not everyone agrees with you and no amount of "but max" is going to change that because not everyone lives and dies based on what happens on max's stream. "Easy to learn, hard to master" is the exact opposite of these talent trees. YOU... specifically YOU... and the majority of the playerbase is not going to figure out what is the best build for the class. Instead YOU are going to have people like Max or those discord bros TELL you what to pick. When you create systems that are complex for the sake of being complex, all it does is ensure that you CAN'T pick talents based on what you think is best because it's impossible to look at these talents and determine which ones are going to be better or worse without a script evaluating them. So, if you bother to respond again, try bringing some value to the discussion rather than wasting time clearly getting upset that I didn't shine the boots of your master Max. Or maybe you don't don't have any standards and just accept whatever is given to you. That's fine. Some people think McDonald's is good food. Others like myself actually have our own opinions though and don't rely on having no standards or rely on someone else telling us how to think.
i think beta would be cool if it gave you gear you would get in first few weeks of DF i feel you wont be getting 400 ilvl in first month of DF tbh aless you big sweety boi. even some of the gear in DF is 445-450 ilvl. so u can test stuff out that might actuality make it bit of a challenge.
I been out of the loop for awhile, since when was doing damage a part of a healers toolkit? Other than say a disc priest. Shouldn't healers be encouraged to focus on...healing? Been playing again but sticking to dps to get back into things, and have noticed many groups where healers are pumping out and beating dps in dps, makes no sense. I used to enjoy healer classes, was my go to when I'd play. If the game is encouraging healers to also dps no thanks, I dont need to be worrying about pumping out decent dps whilst also making sure 5 or more people stay alive, what is that. If I wanted to dps i'd pick dps as my role.
Since M+ came out. Doing damage and killing things faster is active damage mitigation. Healing will always be our main focus, but damaging is always a golden boon
Rdruid is just designed perfectly and don't have any real big weakness just like rogue or mage. As long as the tuning isn't extremely bad, they just can't be bad. In literally every content.
Stone skin over spirit link. SPirit link is good if you have the mana to back it up. Not worth using anymore imo...At least right now. Pre DF. Much better talents to use. I may go back to it when i lose Vesper totem, but its not looking likely. I built mine to the point of...No more damage from me.. .Not my job! no more CC'ing either. Why? All of the classes can heal, CC and do damage. If im in your group, im healing, thats it. I know what your ALLLLLL goig to say and idc, I do 17's and do basically no damage and succeed. Time for dps TO DO THEIR JOB for once. And i can promise one thing...Shamans will ALWAYS be king healers. Druids are the only ones that can hold up and pass a shaman. If you disagree.... Thats because I am not in your group I havent played yet, but i think youre wrong asf.. Shamans still feel crazy strong. The hell yoou talking about? lol I feel like i need to teach you how to play a shaman lol.
Kind of upset that you have a great class healer, with good toolkit, amazing mastery and you still let your friends die because you want to dps. Not satisfied with this video, sorry.
You can get through a dungeon one of two ways. By keeping everyone alive and topped up or by making the mob die before it overpowers your teammates. One of these two is vastly more effective at helping get there before the timer runs out.
Got the worst covenant ability with no offensive potential. Acid Rain doesn't make up for losing EQ ele + vesper. Nobody will ever spec NS, I see zero situations where it makes any difference or is any good actually. The trees are actually bad, not good. You lose most of your abilities chasing the things that actually boost your performance. Chain Heal is still unusable, 2nd expansion in a row. Just Riptide spam again. Very disappointing.
![Going Undercover as a New Healer [Zero to KSM Ep#1]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/rBsxrCy_nWw/mqdefault.jpg)
Hello friends this Grom.
The 4-piece tier set bonus for resto sham was more impactful than the covenant abilities. Free instant cast chain heals when I dropped most of my totems was what made the class super comfy. This led to some super charged cloud burst healing. As soon as they disabled tier set bonuses, rsham feels awful at 299 ilvl.
These videos are a huge help for me rn. Looking forward to more in the coming weeks
Resto shaman just feels bad now for those of us who only really do M+. Primordial wave is the only covenant ability we kept and it only is good in raid. In keys it's horrible, which leaves us with acid rain and stormkeeper. Acid rain is just a worse version of vesper totem, and it also feels bad to use in keys. Stormkeeper doesn't even have the mastery effect that ele gets so it is incredibly weak.
Not to mention we lost the chain heal tier set which was AMAZING in how it felt and how it finally incorporated chain heal use in keys which before was never pressed.
The 4 piece free chain heal casts was what made Resto Shaman so clean to play. That's a big miss, and the damage can be tuned... but we have all hard casts for our damage where most other healers dont which is what makes the low numbers feel extra bad
@L Historically Rdru plays cat for damage, and disc heals through damage so they technically do hardcast dps spells, but it doesn't take away from their healing. I would count these two in addition to Pala and Monk
Thanks for the vid Growl - my friend and I were just talking about Resto Shaman last night so it's good to get your perspective on it
Shamans already have a strong talent for periods of lots of aoe healing , high tide. People really underestimate the talent, but during high frequency healing situations high tide activates almost every 15 seconds; and having 2 fully empowered chain heals every 15-20 seconds is very strong. The only downside is playing around positioning, which you should already do because of healing rain.
I do have a gut feeling that when I watch reviews of the resto shaman class in Dragonflight some things are being overlooked. I think this is one of them but also totemic recall with earthen wall seems like a great thing to press to mitigate damage. To me, it seems like the number of impactful CD presses has just multiplied with respect to the SL version.
Two talents, however; mentioned, Downpour and Ever-Rising Tide, I'm not sure why these, especially the later, would ever be picked as they both seem like such weak talents.
@@machinedreams9625 Totemic Recall is a very powerful cooldown indeed. And I actually like ERT for m+, it can help you pump out more damage with the extra haste and it's a really short cooldown. Shaman is all about cooldwon usage, as you always have something powerful to do. Stuns, Knock Ups, Damage mitigation etc. means that good shaman players are always contributing meaningfully to encounters.
Yeah tell that to your teammates you are gonna cast long ass small heal on them so please stand close to you
I feel you. People don't use that talent and want to keep dpsing as healer. High tide is a saver, for me, personally, its waaay better than ascendance. You can top life your friends easily. Even in raid, if you fully heal 5 of your mates, its better than heal a little bit of everyone.
@@normy6801 it's not that long with riptide. Decrease casting of chain heal.
1/24/23
Restoration
Healing Tide Totem healing now increased by 100% while not in a raid.
Healing Wave healing increased by 6%.
Acid Rain damage increased by 120%.
Flame Shock damage increased by 20%.
Lava Burst damage increased by 20%.
Master of the Elements increases the effectiveness of the Shaman’s next Nature, Physical, or Frost spell by 20% (was 10%).
Developers’ note: These changes for both Elemental and Restoration are aimed at improving their capabilities in dungeon content. We feel Restoration is lacking in reactive healing as well as damage contribution, so we’re increasing single target heals and a few damage abilities and talents. We’re also increasing the effectiveness of Master of the Elements, which is intended to encourage weaving in damage spells while healing.
Adding in vesper could really help sham with damage and the burst healing
100% it filled that void.
I think you might want to consider looking at Totemic Recall, Totemic Projection, Living Streams alongside the Awakening and Earthliving Weapon talents. Projection allows you to make spells like Earthen Wall Totem or SLT much more effective because you can move the totems with the group out of swirls. Totemic Recall can get you 2x EWT at the same time, or 3 Healing Stream Totems at once (4 if you also grab Creation), which adds up to a LOT of on-demand throughput to deal with burst events.
Shaman feels like a mix of 2 approaches: proactive (HST, EWT, Riptides, Stoneskin) vs. reactive (AG, Ascendance, SLT). Cloudburst and Healing Rain feel very clunky in 5-mans in DF. Thanks again for sharing your thoughts on Shaman.
Ancestral Guidance + Stormkeeper + Cloudburst felt very strong in M+ 15-20 past few weeks. Seems worth a mention when talking healing cooldowns. Maybe I was padding that with Vesper Totem, but Id still expect it to be felt. Has been my main CD.
AG is great
Long time follower of yours, I want to say thank you for your perspective and Hardwork really value and appreciate
Thank you for taking the time to make these videos for us 😀
I still love my rsham but will probably be maining rdruid for the beginning of this xpac.
I definitely feel the lack of damage but still plan on maining resto sham in DF
same here.. played a ton of restosham in SL. now its time for something new :) nice vid as always. thanks for sharing your opinion
My problem with the resto shaman it's just feels a dumber version of SL resto shaman. It's not about the numbers, more likely the talents. It feels like a chaos a lot of good things on paper, but in practice it just feels bad. I had this feeling at the start of BFA with my Aff lock, when all of my cool abilitys came from the artifact weapon and my class was naked shit at the start of the new expansion.
Mana spring totem is useless as long as it stays 33 mana per riptide and lava burts. I find the whole talent tree bloated just getting things I had three weeks ago back. Cloudburst for me is a no go now, too long CD. My biggest grip is that we HAVE to take earthen harmony for Ascendance. Earthen harmony is next to useless.
I think mana spring could potentially be useful in raid environments because only healers need the mana. It might make having more then one shaman deliver a fair amount of mana. However; I agree, one mana spring on its own, restores mana for beans.
I think since so many classes have bloodlust now we should have bloodlust as a talent with a wind fury totem as an alternate choice
That would be dope, sad for ench shammans tho since that's their one unique spell
Or shamanism. This is like a better PI
skyfury totem
@@normy6801 or that ye
Thank you for making these videos its helped alot in me deciding what classes to prioritize, It saddens me to hear that Resto shaman(which is my favorite healer, barring Drakthyr since I haven't tried it) but I'm glad that Blizz at least seems aware of the tuning issue.
2:02 Exactly. “I can’t have everything” isn’t a valid criticism. Even if you previously could have most of everything.
Remember when everyone thought the 4pc tier in shadowlands was absolute dog shit then turns out it was actually pretty awesome! I think resto shaman will be fine people are just worried bc we were spoiled. We will get something or are overlooking something and everything will be fine. I just 2 chested a 23 GD with like 9k hps and 7.2k dps. I also never dropped below 50% mana and never like freaked out if someone was gonna die to my class/healing abilities.
I still wish being a healer was more about healing, and not about pumping dps on trash
For aoe I'm still surprised that they didn't just take elementals liquid magma totem, uncapped it's aoe and gave it in that form to both of the specs. Would fix both their uncapped aoe problem
Thanks Grom! Druid Evoker all the way
Nerf inc?
I hope shaman still excels in raids. I am coming back for DF after dropping shadowlands and I had hope for my favorite class. I don't care as much about M+ as long as I can do my weeklys without issue, but if its shit in raids I will have to change directions.
If they made healing raid/acid rain instant cast, I think it would be better, and we should also get an oh shit instant cast healing spell like other healers. I have always mailed rsham, and will continue to do so, but they do feel very clunky atm.
I've been feeling a little lackluster in the DPS compartment, when I look at the damage other healers are doing in M+. Stormkeeper helps, for sure, but acid rain doesn't feel as strong as it used to at the end of SL. Maybe that's just me.
Great video! Thanks Growl!
Thank you friend ❤
Shaman is the first class that really clicked for me so I'm a bit disappointed I was still thinking about maining it but Im leaning to alt now. And maybe not even that because I only really have time for 1 or 2 characters.
The loss of Chain Harvest makes me miss Shadowlands M+. Which is tragic, because the idea of missing that shitshow makes me feel kind of sick.
I’m gonna play with Acid Rain just because I like how horrific it sounds Lon
Here we go!
Have you done any updates to this video since the catalyst was launched in this week's patch (1/24/2023)?
Would love Fae Transfusion to make it into the talent tree
@L very elaborate and well thought out response, thank you
Cloudburst nerf is so punishing unfortunately
LOVE YOU GROWL!
Hello Growl, this is friends
I was excited to play dragonflight with my restoshaman until I watched this video.
Hello Grom this is friend.
Hello Growl, this is friend
I wish the video focused more about healing and less damaging
you said it. shaman is undertuned as fuck right now.
Stormkeeper isn't even a dps cool down.:/ It currently does the same damage as just spending three gcds on lightning bolt or chain lightning. It definitely needs a buff or won't be worth taking.
no? 150% increased damage means 250% damage. times 2, thats 500%, so you spend 3 gcd's to do 5 gcd's worth of damage
rsham looking good !
Think you are underselling AG a bit, nice cloudburst feeder
So healers have to dps to carry the dps classes more than they already do? Soon there will be no need for any dps classes.
What is your healing addon ? Healbot ?
cool Thumbnail , what ist it it is some fanart or what ??
I was really hoping for a return to some level of quick casting, chain heal goodness with this expac. Very much disliked cloud + primordial wave play style, but doesn’t seem to be in the cards (yet?). Primordial wave seems odd spell for toolkit despite its incredible use, esp maximizing effectiveness. Most fun I actually ever had was hard mode DSoul - quick, fast healing spells + HRain + moving LB for mana return, wow what an amazing time to play that class. Always casting, always balling, and very shamwow feeling, as anecdotal as that is.
what's your party frames addon? elvui?
shaman can easily deal with burst if you combo your cds. you haven't even mentioned AG combo with ever rising tide or acendence.
Your fears are validated feels bad healing grevious and bursting like wtf
Rest shaman for pvp feel really bad for the healing I can't keep anybody a live
Henlo grump this is heavy breathing
At least chain lightning looks cool
Shammy best healer 💙
how can i get your unitframes? (party)
they all feel great we get it
How's the FTX sponsor going? haha
rip that ftx sponsorship
I think not adding fae transfusion is whack.
Joel gang rise up
resto deserves this
I really hate how they nerfed ancestral awakening lol
I personally hate that healers now are all about how much dmg can they output whilst keeping the group alive. They are healers they should be tuned around healing. just remove the dmg abilities and give them more utility or something in its place give them maybe the dmg buffs instead for example. I know this is a bit of a spicy take just from my experience I’ve found when healing that I want to just heal and keep the group up I don’t want to have to weave in dmg.
I loved the DH meme but that's far from typical now.
i really dont like shammy aoe healing they have pretty much nothing chain heal isnt so good holy priest can crank them and druid has wild growth witch i think is the best aoe heal in game shammy just feels meh i do like their mastery tho
Any Joel s in the chat
greg
these popup windows are so annoying
What other healing class has lust ?
Evoker
Look at the numbers growl
Back to the shitter for mythic plus as shaman, such a shame.
I liked the video was interesting. Alot of talk about dmg, dmg, dmg, dmg, that's great if you're in the 0.5% of players (who really don't need videos to tell them how all healers play, they know they are filling the groups in beta you're not in). So how is shaman for the other 99.5% of players for actually healing a regular bunch of buds or a pug group in M+?
Damage matters, get over it. Or, another way to look at it, if you aren’t in a situation where damage matters, which class you play probably doesn’t either, so rejoice!
@@borkguy Kellin has the right of it. If you don't care about damage because it's irrelevant to the key content you're pushing, then you are in a position where you can play literally any healer.
@@borkguy Get over what exactly? I am guessing your part of the 0,5% people? Perhaps fanboy/fangirl. Damage is not super important for the healer unless your pushing world first keys never have I ran a +25 or below and thought omg thank goodness my healer pulled that big 7k dps overall or we would not have timed the key rofl.
@@MrMadman111 i think all of us had this moments, when you barely kill boss and/or manage to finish key in time with like 10 seconds left to spare. In moments like that i like to think, that every little damage that i made as a healer helped us to make it to the sweet victory
There's a guy above who wrote a comment, he wants to tell you his life story about how great he is and never does damage. Go talk to him, please. It will distract him and nobody else wants to do it.
Idk why but to me Growl gives off strong sassy gay friend vibes. I'm not saying I think you are gay, or care if you are/arent. There's just something about you that makes me think you're about to z-snap and talk about my clothes being out of style.
And yeah they took way too many abilities out of the spellbook because "gotta come up with exactly 61 talents, no matter what. So what if we didnt start working on them until 3 months before the game releases? It'll be fine." Some basic talents are split into 3 pointers and some seriously powerful and legendary effects are easy to get 1 pointers. It was just done so late and haphazardly that the talent trees feel good in concept but not like they're going to be what they could have.
Hmm
what?!
>stoneskin
>new totem
Heh.
It’s feel a bit clunky compared to shadowlands
damn man . all 3 shaman specs look lackluster. Thats my main 😐. Rip sub
Now you can go back to fortnite 👋
After maining shaman for a number of expansions, the changes to the toolkit has destroyed the class for me. I played the class because of it's toolkit and how satisfying it was to fully use that toolkit. With the changes, I can't... CAN'T... get the same toolkit back. Everything about that feels like complete shit. It feels horrible. Nothing is more frustrating than a situation coming up where you have a utility spell for it but you can't use it because you didn't have the talent for it. Even stuff like doing world is just frustrating if you get a mob that fears and you don't have tremor totem. Will is make or break you? No, but that doesn't change the fact that it feels like shit.
Shaman's talent tree represents the most regressive and shallow design of any of the talent trees. Aside from not being able to get the full toolkit you had before, you are now going to have to micro manage your utility constantly. I don't know who thought that would be fun. Previously, it was about skill and gameplay to effectively use your skills at the right time. Now, before you step foot in a dungeon or get ready for a raid boss fight, you have to do even MORE bullshit to make sure that you have the right utility selected. God forbid you do a dungeon that has more diverse mechanics than what you can pick up in utility.
While I agree the removal of abilities was bad and clearly because 'we need to have enough talents to make them have "meaningful choices,"(a term they like but dont actually understand) the idea that "Shaman's talent tree represents the most regressive and shallow design of any of the talent trees" is extremely questionable. Overall the Shaman design was rather well liked by the community, you can see this on Liquid Maximum's channel when he had a panel of shamans on to discuss it, as well as many other videos, comment threads, and articles. It has many powerful talents, most of which are one point, but is just too bloated by the amount of utility taken away and then forced back in through talents. This makes getting a "full" feeling kit very difficult. The "two point tax" to get to your keystones is bad but far from unique to shaman and at least most of those are useful and most bad ones can be routed around. Others do not have this luxury.
Priests, to be able to get to their keystone "Power Word: Life" which is a great new spell have to take a two point talent that reduces the cast time of smite and flash heal by 10% BUT only when above 75% health. Its basically a dead talent that just eats up two points and doesnt even provide that much CDR ontop of being heavily conditional. That's not all though, on the other side to be able to take Mindgames they have to take another two point talent that makes shadow word pain do 6% more damage. That would be about a .5% throughput increase for two points. And neither of these can be routed around, you only have one path in to each keystone.
In the druid tree there is no way to make it from moonkin or resto to the bottom left keystone at all. You have to take a full set of feral talents to be able to do so, and even then you're delegated a specific route. Its a hybrid class known for its multirole ability that can no longer use most of its forms..
Worse yet, for a moonkin or healer with the affinity to take their kick, skull bash, they have to take 8 points of feral talents, most of which are dead and punctuated by a 3 point node that gives 2% armor and physical damage per point, which is 100% dead for those caster classes. There is intentionally a decision to make kick a 4 point talent for all druids. THAT is amazingly bad design, even specs that previously did have it now have to choose if its worth it.
They also have 3 3-point nodes and they're all in position to block off important abilities- skull bash, cyclone and heart of the Wild. There are many more examples but these are just among the healers specifically. Dps and tanks both have plenty of examples as well.
I am unimpressed by the system and think it needed a lot of time to go through iteration cycles to be made into something worthwhile, and unfortunately we didn't get that. But, being melodramatic is not going to help or get people to take you seriously. It might be the one you care about the most, and it might not be very good in areas but its far from the worst. By now everyone has heard that "my spec is the worst and needs to be fixed right now" about every single spec in the game. If you want them to listen, give them something to listen to: Explain exactly what is wrong, why and what would fix it.
@@booradley6832 Liquid Max is the absolute worst possible person to represent the "community". He's playing a completely different game than the rest of us and it's a part of the game that is only played by an extreme minority of the players. To put it bluntly, what he says or doesn't say is representative of a world first raiding guild and not the "community".
Of all the classes, shaman was one of the worst, if not the worst, class when it comes to having baseline abilities being taken away and being turned into talents. That alone makes it one of the laziest and worst trees of all classes. I have yet to find a single person to bring a valid argument for why this is acceptable let alone a good design. It's lazy and it destroys the entire gameplay of the class.
If they can't take the time to create talent trees that don't rely on removing 3/4's the toolkit, then they shouldn't be doing what they are doing.
You can talk about 2 point and 3 point nodes, but you are already so far past the red flags and problems with these new trees. The problem starts with the fake complexity. They've flooded the trees in an effort to force complexity but at the same time, it added so little depth that it's worthless.
But it's actually worse than that. These talent trees were specifically designed for people like Max. People who can and will invest the time to actually care about the difference between a 2 point and 3 point talent or micromanaging talents. When you design the game for 1% of the playerbase, it's not a good design.
Blizzard is trying to once again compete against the simming tools. Add enough variables to the formula and the sims can't function. The problem is that in their efforts to attack the simming tools, they've made it so incomprehensibly hard for a player to know what abilities and talents to pick that it's a shit show. l
The most frustrating thing about these new talent trees is that they'll abandon them soon enough just like they abandoned the talent system they replaced which was ALSO a system that was designed to be used going forward.
But Max wasnt the one doing the analysis, he's the moderator and has community experts of the class come on to do it for each spec. High end raiders, class discord standouts, etc.
Literally everyone got everything taken away. Shaman having more buttons means they lost more, but nobody came away with much at all. Its not even like Shamans lost more of their base kit. Druids forgot how to cast two of their four basic dps spells (sunfire, starfire,) warriors dont know any of their stances, there's a good example for every class. Lots of other classes had basic functionality of abilities split into multi point nodes. The lack of a base kit is a universal complaint no matter who the class is.
Saying "its built for people like Max" as if that's a bad thing. They're trying to make it so that you can easily play the game without knowing every interaction but if you want to push it further to do the hardest possible content you have to engage with the talents and push for the extra 1%. "Easy to learn, hard to master" Is held up as the ideal design. Even if it is like that, playing a class well will always outdo playing the best possible spec but not being able to execute the incredibly demanding rotation, i.e. bloodtalons druid. There is no paywall or even information wall preventing you from being as good as you can be, everything is out there, people are directly telling you how to do it and with what. There is no great handicap on just shamans. If anything them no coming away with 3/4 covenant abilities is hurting them more than anything else.
You're just going play the victim with no substance to your conviction. Its fairly clear you havent looked around to see how bad it is for all but a few classes and have no frame of reference but just want to throw a tantrum, so enjoy the expansion hopefully it drives people like you to have some introspection or just go away.
@@booradley6832 No offense, but I think you are more caught up in the fact that I'm disagreeing rather than actually addressing anything that I'm saying. What's worse is that all you are doing is barking out that a couple of people told you that it was good and like a good little sheep, you followed them.
If all you can do is keep repeating "well, Max's stream said it was great, so it's great", then we can just save everyone's time by just ignoring you. In all of your longwinded replies, you have not addressed a single complaint that I've brought up. At best, you've dismissed it by saying "everyone got everything taken away" without even the slightest hint that exactly what you just described is a problem. How oblivious can you be? I fucking hate that everything got taken away and think it's lazy and regressive for the game. Do you think it somehow makes it better that every class had things taken away? You don't think through what you are posting.
[Saying "its built for people like Max" as if that's a bad thing. ]
Yes, let's design the game for less than 1% of the playerbase. Wait, no, don't do that. That's fucking dumb. How could you possibly think that what you just posted had any merit to it at all? You have to think through what you are saying because apparently, you don't realize that not everyone agrees with you and no amount of "but max" is going to change that because not everyone lives and dies based on what happens on max's stream.
"Easy to learn, hard to master" is the exact opposite of these talent trees. YOU... specifically YOU... and the majority of the playerbase is not going to figure out what is the best build for the class. Instead YOU are going to have people like Max or those discord bros TELL you what to pick. When you create systems that are complex for the sake of being complex, all it does is ensure that you CAN'T pick talents based on what you think is best because it's impossible to look at these talents and determine which ones are going to be better or worse without a script evaluating them.
So, if you bother to respond again, try bringing some value to the discussion rather than wasting time clearly getting upset that I didn't shine the boots of your master Max. Or maybe you don't don't have any standards and just accept whatever is given to you. That's fine. Some people think McDonald's is good food. Others like myself actually have our own opinions though and don't rely on having no standards or rely on someone else telling us how to think.
hopeless spec
they should just reduce the cd on downpour because honestly that skill is so stupid... penalized for doing your role??? so dumb.
RIP DH hahahahahaha brilliant!
i think beta would be cool if it gave you gear you would get in first few weeks of DF i feel you wont be getting 400 ilvl in first month of DF tbh aless you big sweety boi. even some of the gear in DF is 445-450 ilvl. so u can test stuff out that might actuality make it bit of a challenge.
I been out of the loop for awhile, since when was doing damage a part of a healers toolkit? Other than say a disc priest. Shouldn't healers be encouraged to focus on...healing? Been playing again but sticking to dps to get back into things, and have noticed many groups where healers are pumping out and beating dps in dps, makes no sense.
I used to enjoy healer classes, was my go to when I'd play. If the game is encouraging healers to also dps no thanks, I dont need to be worrying about pumping out decent dps whilst also making sure 5 or more people stay alive, what is that. If I wanted to dps i'd pick dps as my role.
Cool story casual
you are in fact encouraged to focus on healing. The top priority is still to keep people alive.
Since M+ came out. Doing damage and killing things faster is active damage mitigation. Healing will always be our main focus, but damaging is always a golden boon
I bet that top 200 m+ will be evoker gelore or druid. This game is rigged.
Rdruid is just designed perfectly and don't have any real big weakness just like rogue or mage. As long as the tuning isn't extremely bad, they just can't be bad. In literally every content.
please get down the ftx ad
They butchered resto sham
Stone skin over spirit link. SPirit link is good if you have the mana to back it up. Not worth using anymore imo...At least right now. Pre DF. Much better talents to use. I may go back to it when i lose Vesper totem, but its not looking likely. I built mine to the point of...No more damage from me.. .Not my job! no more CC'ing either. Why? All of the classes can heal, CC and do damage. If im in your group, im healing, thats it. I know what your ALLLLLL goig to say and idc, I do 17's and do basically no damage and succeed. Time for dps TO DO THEIR JOB for once.
And i can promise one thing...Shamans will ALWAYS be king healers. Druids are the only ones that can hold up and pass a shaman. If you disagree.... Thats because I am not in your group
I havent played yet, but i think youre wrong asf.. Shamans still feel crazy strong. The hell yoou talking about? lol
I feel like i need to teach you how to play a shaman lol.
Cool story bro.
@@Ihopeyouhatedit cool reply bro!
Spurdo's reply had about as much depth to it as your post, but at least respected the reader enough to not waste their time.
@@booradley6832 if you're on UA-cam you're wasting your own time and thank you for giving my comment the light of day. I'm super flattered.
Lol ace b8
Kind of upset that you have a great class healer, with good toolkit, amazing mastery and you still let your friends die because you want to dps. Not satisfied with this video, sorry.
Meow
First comment!
first
Healer chanel but we talk more about dps than healing, just play dps class if you like dps :)
Dps matters as a healer, prpbably not so much in your 15s but in higher keys its very important
You can get through a dungeon one of two ways. By keeping everyone alive and topped up or by making the mob die before it overpowers your teammates. One of these two is vastly more effective at helping get there before the timer runs out.
Bad
you're bad
You're a fucking cartoon bird, who gives a fuck what you think? Goofy ass.
@@ToadsTho seethe
@@Lugiapkm
No u
Balding
Got the worst covenant ability with no offensive potential. Acid Rain doesn't make up for losing EQ ele + vesper. Nobody will ever spec NS, I see zero situations where it makes any difference or is any good actually. The trees are actually bad, not good. You lose most of your abilities chasing the things that actually boost your performance. Chain Heal is still unusable, 2nd expansion in a row. Just Riptide spam again. Very disappointing.
Friends, Hello. Growl this is.