A Real Definition of Narcissistic Abuse
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- Опубліковано 6 лют 2023
- The term ‘narcissistic abuse’ has been, itself, heavily abused. Is has largely been a pop-psychology term that means different things depending on how and where it is used. It is often used to demonize individuals with pathological narcissism and NPD, who represent an at-risk population for depression, self-harm, and suicide.
In this episode, Dr. Ettensohn provides a new definition for narcissistic abuse - one that is actually specific to pathological narcissism and NPD. This new definition is based on the psychodynamics of the disorder itself, and describes an inter-generational chain of emotional mistreatment that creates narcissistic pathology in children, who then grow up to use people in the same way that they, themselves, were used.
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I will remove comments that are abusive to any individual (including myself) or population. This includes comments that are abusive toward pwNPD.
lkoa
@@crisestrada8268 -
Yep
If you did not experience the abuse and toxic family, one does not have an Idea what helll the victims go through
Exactly… many can’t relate to the hell we experienced.
It's so unbelievable I've rarely talked about it. It's so absurd even I in the center of it have a hard time accepting the hell happened because it's just so beyond...
Totally.
both my parents and then my abuser found me at 11 yrs old hes 3 half yrs older im now 43 ready to be take myself away 4ever
the individual with npd most likely went through this as well in their childhood
There's a fascinating study on the brains of people with npd. It shows less grey matter in the left anterior insula (one brain region responsible for empathy). Adding this to highlight npd is not a choice. It is even physiological in some cases. Additionally childhood neglect and/or abuse that forces a child into "fight or flight" for extended periods of time can do brain damage including shrinking the hippocampus (learning/memory) and enlarging the amygdala (base emotions like fear/rage)
Yes, and the neurology of mental illness is somewhat of a chicken and egg situation. Brain circuits that fire together wire together. The experiences that produce NPD have a neurological correlate. We can’t really say if a certain kind of brain produces NPD, or if NPD produces a certain kind of brain. But your point about choice is well-taken. Whatever the cause of our neurology, we can’t think outside of the range of thoughts permitted by our individual neurological configuration. This is why therapy is helpful: in a way it’s like having someone with a different brain helping to think previously “unthinkable” thoughts.
I think that can happen in adulthood also due to abuse or trauma.
@@healnpdit also points to the intractable nature of NPD.
@@markgamache6377 I would caution you against becoming too committed to the idea that NPD is incurable or intractable. There simply isn't any evidence to suggest that is true. Brains change and grow with time and experience. When I say that we can't think outside of the range of thoughts permitted by our individual neurology, I do not mean that we can *never* think outside that range. There are many things that my present neurology prevents. Walking effortlessly on stilts is one of them. But I suspect that with sustained effort and enough time, my neurology would change. 🙂
@@healnpd I am willing to be convinced by evidence that NPD is treatable. But, current evidence is that typical treatments result in only superficial and/or temporary changes for all but a small minority of patients. It might be therapeutic methods around trauma or even a neurochemical intervention might improve the outcomes. I would never say it's impossible forever. Even if a solution was found there would still be the problem of the disorder preventing them from seeking therapy and if in therapy. hinders the therapeutic relationship. Compounding the problem, IMO NPD is an adaptive response that is an affective way to navigate in modern society. It 'works' despite being damaging to those around the disordered person.
Thank you for your video. I am first time visitor to your channel, but already appreciate your content. Sam Vaknin states that at the core of cluster B personality disorders is Narcissistic personality style. This may be the reason why there is generalization towards calling everything NPD. I just went through a divorce with my ex-wife. It was such a mixed bag of feelings for me. On one end, I felt bad for her, and her inability to experience the world the way other people see it. I know that it is not her fault, that's all she knows. On the other hand, being lied to, cheated on, having my name smeared to my friends, having my reality not validated, getting all the blame assigned to me, being treated with contempt, being resented by her, her pretending to be a victim, and then being discarded after seven years of marriage has really shaken me to my core. I truly loved my x wife and really wanted to save our marriage. No one is perfect, I get that. When I tried to work on myself, and was asking my wife to work on herself, her version of working on herself was telling me what to do and what to change. Everything was too little too late, and not enough.
Those of you reading this comment, no matter what side you are on, what could be done for both cluster B and none cluster B people to bridge the reality gap while in relationship?
Sorry to hear of your experience. I am going through something similar at the moment.
But with narcissists there is no gap to bridge, what you see is what you get, it is either you get it now or later. And it is either you stay and take it and become the narcissist foot stool or you save yourself.
Full stop.
In my experience, the narcissist is not the one to change; they simply can't. Even if self aware. The one who will have to change is you. Now whether that change brings you closer together or farther apart depends on many things. How toxic the relationship is, how badly both of you want to make it work, etc. Ultimately it falls to the non disordered person, to decide what level of toxicity they can put up with, and what if any boundaries they are willing to compromise.
In my case, the change in myself was to protect my peace and inner child. My boundaries were very basic (respect, consideration, autonomy) but my NPD sibling wouldn't honor or respect them. That was a dealbreaker for me, so we had to sever our relationship.
Ability to change is highly dependent on the individual. Those who are motivated to change and to engage in the treatment process can absolutely make significant strides. 👍
@@healnpd This is a real platitude for the victims of NPD. What this says is, they will change if they want to. The catch is, they don’t want to. Which means that the victim is not worth changing for. That, is the conundrum for victims to accept, that their NPD partner does not think they are worth the effort to change, (Basic respect, civility, empathy, and support.) Hence, the victim is trapped into a hopefulness that somehow their partner will actually do what normal people find pretty easy to do. It’s give up, on all the good stuff, and leave, and roll the dice on getting someone minus the abuse.
Not to mention, people with a high self esteem, walk out the door at the first displaced, maybe even psychotic incident, the NPD tries to pull off. There is the lesson, from the get go for victims. You have to be tough, to let be known, (from the beginning), that you will get out for good, if there is any of the funny business the NPD like to use to get their sadistic supply. A firm, brick wall, boundary. If you don’t demand respect, don’t expect it to just be given to you.
Otherwise, you will find yourself five years in, and it’s just getting worse.
@P Rant - Thanks for your comment. My focus on this channel has been primarily to explain the psychology behind NPD and to address the widespread distortions about this disorder floating around out there. But another goal should probably be to help regular people understand the basic principles in psychology that underlie most of the material I produce. For example: when I say that an individual who is motivated for treatment can improve, perhaps I should also add -explicitly - that it is not possible to motivate someone to want or accept help, and that whether or not that person is motivated is entirely about them and no one else.
This is why when people ask me for advice for their loved ones who suffer from NPD, I only ever reply if they can actually name traits that aren't just "gaslighting" "Discard" "hoover" etc etc. These aren't behaviors that are specific to NPD at all. I can understand wanting to understand the pathology behind why they were hurt, but since we view narcissism though the lense of abuse it's the only reason of being hurt people can think of. And I think there's too much of a focus on it for the process of healing
Great vid on the topic. Best I've seen honestly. Which is unsurprising lmao
Thanks for your feedback. I fretted over whether to make a video on this topic because it is so charged. I 100% agree that narcissism is viewed through the lens of abuse to the exclusion of almost everything else about the disorder.
Many narcissists will find this to be the best video. Not many empaths will.
@@SeeDemDeh why are you trying to invalidate actual useful information about NPD?
Unfortunately, you are correct, Jay. There are tens of thousands of videos focusing exclusively on a stigmatizing and vilifying definition of narcissism as synonymous with 'abuse.' This deluge of skewed information has created widespread misunderstanding among lay persons concerning NPD and pathological narcissism. It's not that these individuals don't mistreat others, because they do. It's more that the public (and many clinicians) simply don't understand narcissism to be anything OTHER than abuse and mistreatment of others. They can't conceptualize it as a mental illness. Any time I or anyone else attempts to address features of this disorder that aren't explicitly about abuse, a bunch of people show up in outrage.
Funny how the views of these people only make room for the extremes, not for holding both sides - a skill which me with narcissism lacks but am learning now!
It is generational. My wife's grandmother had 13 children. She was a narcissist. I remember being present for a family meeting with all 13 of them talking about the harm their mother caused them.
My wife's mother is a narcissist. She raised my wife to believe emotions were weak and that women were weak.
My wife grew up serving her mother hand and foot. She also grew up to serve her oldest brother (her mother deferred to him as well).
The dynamic still exists between my wife and her mother. She spends just about every waking moment with her mom. I swear, if i hear:
"If I were you, I would ____" one more time. I'll be in prison but my wife might be free.
Grandmother-in-law
Mother-in-law
Brother-in-law
Wife
Youngest daughter
Someone has to break the cycle.
That was me...because each member mentioned above believes they have a proper perspective and the weak people around them keep screwing it up.
I spent 26 years with my wife believing I did screw her life up, that I did fail her, that I couldn't do anything right.
I cannot hate her for what she is, but I cannot save her. Believe me, I've been trying for years. I have nothing left. 😢
My man you seem like you've carried way too much for way too long.
All you can do is survive. They don't want to be saved. Jesus asked "do you want to be healed?" Their answer is f...off Jesus
Me too
I held onto a lifetime of narcissists with the idea that they had humanity inside there. I was bound, and determined to find it! They were just as bound and determined to prove me wrong! Which brings us back to the beginning of your explanation. It is a bizarre experience to live in a lifetime of fantasy worlds with a lifetime of Cluster B’s who never approved of my being born. Taking turns in the cycle. I felt invisible. I’m 55 and they still try to come back to finish me off. It would be a miracle to meet people out here who understand me. Alienation and Isolation after devaluation and discard like an engrained program until I finally understood that I held the keys to stop it! Which left me isolated and vulnerable to people who behave very much like predators.
It sounds like you've been through a lot.
@@healnpd I remember it like a Dream and a Nightmare. It was me behind all those closed doors. Sweet/Mean/Sweet/Mean/Sweet/Meaner…. Fear Obligation Guilt Shame/ Blame RAGE!! ect.. The whole nine.. I have to take a lot of breaks to protect and restore my energy. I’m exhausted and fatigued. I’m determined to hold my ground with my Boundaries and never go back or let any of them back in. It’s like I am allergic to them the way my body reacts to them . They make me really sick from the anxiety
@@heatherlynn3438 I'm glad you aren't going back. Toxicity will affect your health. I just finished radiation for breast cancer and presently wearing a heart monitor. Take care!
@@angieholt736 I’m sorry. I pray for your full recovery! I had bladder cancer while married to one of the narcs. My health problems were the biggest distraction while I was in there. I had no idea that people could make you sick. Narcissists disabled me.
So forgive them for robbing us of our humanity because of their mental illness...
I started having boundaries with my ex. It actually triggered him to start escalating the psychological abuse more, and then he started taking it out of my daughter even more. We finally had to escape. I hadn't eaten in weeks and I was losing so much weight. I felt like I had a chronic stomach ulcer. My face would break out in bright red splotches on my cheek & left ear. Even when he was begging me to come back, he was still completely denying specific events, Like refusing to let me go to the hospital. But then when he finally let me go- he walked away ahead of me pouting while I thought I was going to pass out.. He screwed me out of so much of my inheritance money. I got some of it back. But only because I threatened to scream it from the hills. Ten years Of hell. I've been gone two and a half months and i'm just now finally feeling brave enough to rest. I've started having nervous ticks that even wake me up as i'm falling asleep. The slightest noise makes my heart race. It's so not fair what they can get away with.
Cluster b milkshake sent me. Very glad she did. Here to rep for cluster bs
Welcome to the channel.
I suffered covert narcissistic abuse from my soon-to-be-ex wife for nearly two decades. Your videos have been among the most helpful in my journey to find forgiveness for her within myself. I do not like many videos on this topics precisely because they tend to dehumanize the narcissist - the same way narcissists dehumanize others. It can be difficult to find compassion and empathy for someone who has treated you as an object whose purpose is to elevate, validate, and praise the facade of competence that they have constructed -- and then played victim and manipulated you with guilt when you failed to admire them during their periods of poor behavior. But it is necessary to find that so that we don't dehumanize them and become narcissistic ourselves.
Same-ish here. Did not believe that I went through abuse at the hands of my npd family (my dad and his family) for the longest time, because of all the dehumanizing information out there. I know my families aren’t heartless monsters, I know they love and took care of me the best they can, it’s just that something in their psyche always seem to get in the way and they end up hurting me or other people. Abuse is a choice, yeah, it’s also impossible to ignore how hard they fought what they clearly thought of as “their inherent evilness” (in quotations because that is simply untrue). In her last years my gran deeply regretted how abuse passed down to me, and warned my dad several times to treat me better (while still being somewhat abusive to her children), but without understanding the root cause and suitable npd treatment, nothing really changed. I wish she finds peace in afterlife, and I wish my dad will have the chance and motivation to heal before he passes away.
I agree. My ex partner who I was with from 16 to 37 and had 7 children with (he was twice my age when we met and I was a homeless autistic girl) was very narcissistic toward me, but I know he was suffering from complex trauma from childhood and is a very frightened person. He needed to try to control me and undermine me because, as he told me "he had wanted a homeless teenager that he could mould" . He couldn't handle having a partner on equal terms. I think he is in a world of pain but has never learnt emotional intelligence. Our children are, one by one, turning away from him in alienation. He has no idea how to be honest or address his internal void that causes him to use other's for his selfish and fearful needs. It's sad. But I still care about him, he just can't help treating me as if my self-empowered adult woman self is a threat to him and he feels compelled to "divide and conquor". I left in very bad shape 14 years ago. I am now in a healthy relationship.
Thank you for explaining this correctly. Many people assume that someone is a narcissist based on superficial behaviors that don't necessarily mean someone has NPD. But, narcissistic abuse is rough. Tends to impact self worth, self respect and self trust. But many misconceptions exist in terms of how and why these behaviors occur. And you discussed many aspects of cluster b disorders that often aren't addressed. The loose concept of "Narcissistic Abuse" is one of them. More people need to watch this.
I just love ur videos and ur book. It has helped me immensely in understanding my ex narc partner compassionately. Currently he is not in my life and I sometimes feel sad for him for self denial. I told him about his NPD issue very empathetically but his defenses are too strong to admit. Only thing which can heal him is praying for him. Hopefully one day he will wake up from his sleep and lead a fulfilling life.
Thank u Marc for ur insightful videos
Thanks for watching. I am glad to know these videos are helpful to you.
Thank you for taking such an insightful approach to this disorder. I have been watching your videos and it is opening my eyes to so much. The long term effects of abuse and neglect in children are so damaging. So unfair. To all of us.
In my experience NPD people are sometimes aware they are abusing others, they just don’t care. It might even be said some of them get satisfaction from inflicting upset on others
I release my narcissistic mother, with love and compassion, using the no contact discipline, and with the help and support I get from therapy, in hopes of creating a lifestyle that can improve my own feelings of low self-worth, and focus on my health, safety, and overall well-being.. rather than killing myself in order to please her in earning the right to exist in this world, after a lifetime of severe cyclical abuse, that almost led to my death. Thanks for posting.
I've been watching your videos of late to understand NPD because I've had a really difficult time with someone who I suspect has it.
I think the point about people with NPD not necessarily consciously manipulating you is so important.
I was chatting to a friend about it recently and they referred to one if the traits as being "reflexive gaslighting", like someone is just gaslighting you without even realising they're doing it.
It's really maddening to consistently be at the receiving end of that
I so appreciate every single one of your videos! It’s so hard to constantly see the term narcissistic abuse when having NPD doesn’t equal abuse and when everyone is so busy saving everyone from NPD and it feels like there is no one to save us and I have no one to abuse because I struggle too much to connect to people altogether. So much for that lol.
Thanks for letting me know you find this helpful. I agree it is very frustrating. As a clinician, it is frustrating to see narcissism equated with broad categories of mistreatment and abuse that apply to numerous mental health conditions.
What about the abuse from Narcissist?
@@SeeDemDeh do you mean a person with npd or strong narcissistic traits or....?
I could provide a list of videos focused exclusively on abuse from narcissists, but listing every one of them would take more time to type than years in the average human lifespan. I think we can all tolerate the existence of one video on NPD that leaves room for ways that narcisssistic abuse adversely affects BOTH the narcissist AND those around them.
@@healnpdAbsolutely. As someone who desperately loves someone with NPD (and who has been at the receiving end of devaluation and discard), I don’t need more videos about how narcissistic abuse manifests itself. I seek to understand how I can be there for a person with NPD in a way that their parents and loved ones never were… But in a way that doesn’t require abandoning myself.
And that it's all of the above makes it dangerous & insidious.
Thank you for that clarification! Your channel and book is much appreciated! I do struggle with wondering what is my authentic self and what feels like fraudulence. Healing is a life long journey.
Hi Sarah. Have you read the book called Untethered Soul? It defines self as an experience one is having at any particular moment. To count that experience as authentic, it must be felt with full range of emotions (not only selective emotions that make one feel good). One can become true self by allowing each experience to be remembered, serving as a building block for true self. Negative emotions will be observed and felt. As long as they are not neglected and brought to the surface (instead of repressed), negative emotions get worked out of ones body through different range of techniques (like breathing, meditation, exercise, etc). Whats left behind is a foundation of authentic self. one that experiences reality with all senses/emotions and remembers that experience starts to build true self. This process can work in reverse, where memories are brought to surface, repressed feelings are felt, and allowed to pass through one's body. I hope im making sense here. Thanks for all you do.
@@artsiomnaidzich9515 💗Thank you for the comment! I found the book being read on UA-cam! I will check it out. 🌈
I so appreciate your approach to this subject and the information you provide. My need to understand NPD as a survivor of the abuse dished out to me by narcissists in my family, still continues.
Thank you so much! At last, I have found someone who makes sense about this vastly misunderstood pattern of behaviour. Not only does it describe, but goes someway to explaining my husband's behaviour traits and how they have changed to being exactly the opposite of who he was when I first met him! Now I have found an explanation for my children to begin to understand why he now behaves as he does towards them. Understanding this, in the way described has given me hope that our family can begin to heal. A small beam of sunlight in a very dark and cloudy sky!
This is so well thought and helpful in understanding this subject please continue to make this videos there is no other videos on npd as good as this channel
I also have witnessed another NPD. She is a art teacher and I think she has been diagnosed. But she couldn’t help her self to no t to abuse me. She couldn’t not stoped. Even they are trying to control their behaviour, the internal itche is to strong for them to control.
Please don't act like every person with NPD is an abuser that has to abuse.
And also, you can say person with NPD.
This was really well articulated and one of the best advice videos for narcissists I have seen so far. Thank you
Glad it was helpful!
Thank you so much for being objective and giving me a proper understanding. Your channel is the ONLY one that I have come across that isn't filled with emotion and opinions. Thank you 😊
Thank you so much for sharing your excellent understanding with us! Incredible work! You've filled in SO many blanks.
Thanks so much for this, another good one. These videos are food for the starving soul.
I love your definition of narcissistic abuse. I find it hard to summon the right words to describe how my abuser sucks all the life/goodness/humanity out of me.
Sometimes I say they’re like a dementor in Harry Potter; when they’re in a self-esteem deficit there is no light, laughter or hope around, only a void. One that makes my soul ache as they suck from me to feed themselves. No humanity, only a dark, wretched hole devoid of all that is good.
It’s such a cruel disorder. And now I’m identifying in my life where I’ve done the same to others and it’s extremely uncomfortable. I’m in therapy and seeing some changes at least and I won’t be having children so the abuse stops with me. For how much talk there is these days about narcissism, it still seems mostly misunderstood. There are no winners. I wouldn’t wish the horror of this disorder on anyone.
With NPD there is the false self… having BPD I have never felt like I have a false self but I don’t understand why. I could be vulnerable but my self was my favorite person. I was them. I have this protective mask until I see you as good (I think). What is the differences between all 4 cluster b disorders regarding identity?
That’s an interesting question, and one that I may take up in a future video. 🧐
Thank you very much for the explanation.
You are welcome!
Thanks so much. I totally identify. My Narc owned a non profit business helping ptsd patients ironically. Worked also in Forensics and passed away 6 months ago from a brain tumor and internal bleeding which I was unaware of Illness. This makes so much sense to me in the way he treated me and almost destroyed my 31 yr marriage since he called my husband!!!!!!
"my narc" kind of sounds a little like an object
@@stillnotstillI was just about to say the same thing.
Your videos explain things so eloquently.
Thanks, and thanks for watching. 🙂
@@healnpd you mentioned gaslighting.
I personally don’t think most people do it on purpose. I think sometimes it’s just a shame reaction and some denial in small incidents.
But can I ask, does the “reframing” change how they themselves remember events? Is it common for them to remember things falsely or not at all?
I do understand that memory is very subjective and unreliable in general for anyone anyways. Everyone experienced things differently.
But when people say they don’t remember many specific things at all, is that common with people personality disorders?
Do people gaslight themselves? Do they believe what they say when you know that’s not the truth?
Maybe I’m just an optimist but I’d like to think someone I care about isn’t lying to me. I’d like to believe there’s a reason for this.
I hope you can clarify as you have such great insight.
@@ange7422 I would say that gaslighting is not what people think it is. There is an understanding of gaslighting today that does not look anything like a traditional understanding of gaslighting from decades ago. I believe that a more classical understanding of gaslighting eliminates all confusion about this issue. A classical understanding of gaslighting supports the idea that gaslighting is always intentional. Therefore, when someone doesn't gaslight "on purpose", it doesn't qualify as gaslighting at all. I would also add that it's not possible to gaslight oneself. Gaslighting is a form of abuse; You can't abuse yourself (your fight or flight mind would never permit to you cause harm to yourself unless it believed the other option was even more harmful than any s*lf h*rm you are contemplating). When people say it is possible to "gaslight" oneself, they are actually referring to denial, delusion, self-preservation, OCD-like obsessive thoughts or compulsive mantras, or some type of hypnotic programming that was already installed by someone else. We don't do it to ourselves. Just my .02.🙂
This is the best explanation I have heard of narcissist’s objectification of others and lack of connection to true self. In your experience, what typically leads a person to seek treatment? All of the videos I’ve seen state the narcissist must hit “rock bottom” to get help, but those videos are also quick to point out that many of them never hit that low because, in their eyes, their approach to life is working for them-or, when it’s not, it’s someone else’s fault.
I’m not sure about the necessity of hitting ‘rock bottom,’ if such a thing exists. I think most individuals with pathological narcissism seek treatment when in a state of collapse. For some, this is a chronic condition and they may have sought treatment numerous times (whether or not they were correctly identified as struggling with narcissism is a different issue). For others, particularly those with strong grandiose or compensatory defenses, collapse may be relatively infrequent and they therefore don’t seek treatment.
Do you have any advice for someone who has been devalued and discarded by someone with NPD? I can intellectualize what happened until I’m blue in the face-your channel really does help-but it doesn’t stop the pain of loving and giving someone so much only to be made to feel unworthy of that person as they quickly move on to “greener pastures.”
@J - I think it is important to grieve the loss, to feel the disappointment and confusion, to let yourself be angry, sad, and ‘lost’ for a period of time while you process what happened. I also think it is important to recognize that the choices other people make are, ultimately, theirs. It is not a mistake to have loved someone, and you can’t hold yourself accountable for not knowing what you didn’t know. Use this as an opportunity to examine yourself compassionately and with acceptance and forgiveness. If you need work on boundaries, communication, or self-esteem then seek out a supportive therapist who can help you make sure that your next relationship is healthier and more satisfying to you.
@@healnpd I do not regret anything, but letting go is nigh inconceivable. I was like a mom to his young daughter, and I love and miss her as much as I miss him. I am working on myself and with a therapist, but this is one loss too many to be able to grieve in my lifetime.
Some losses can never be fully grieved. I’m very sorry for yours.
Very clear and comprehensive explanation
I like how you lined this video up with examples
Thank you ☺️
Love your video its the first honest representation I’ve encountered on youtube.
Thank you for your video! I highly appreciate your way of thinking. I aspire to be a practitioner who sees and honors our shared humanity, just as you seem to do so gracefully.
I don't understand why the lack of a stable identity is only associated with BPD, when it sounds like so many pwNPD have no solid sense of self unless others are reflecting it back to them? That doesn't sound very stable to me.
You’re amazing! 🎊 🎉 your explanation is spot on! It’s unconscious and truly a defense mechanism. Do they know they are being unreasonable? Sometimes I question that…I believe they do when it’s a control issue but when they collapse it’s unconscious. Please advise
Thank you for your video. There appears to be large number of "counselors" who label almost every man a narcissist and almost every "sin" proof or validation for the label. This smearing is not helpful and frustrating to see because it appears to berate men and almost be a form of abuse in and of itself. Terms need specificity. Ambiguity is a formidable enemy.
I consider that boundaries is the greatest issue of this personality disorder!Excellent definition!
Wow. Brilliant. Well defined.
Good to see your video
So all these words have stormed into the public lexicon… gaslighting, devaluation, hoovering, love bombing, minimization, invalidation, triangulation, blame shifting, projection, etc. What do we call them collectively then? Are they just called emotional abuse?
Also I’d heard that before, that narcissistic abuse is not just emotional abuse by a narcissist, but a form of abuse that involves the target losing their sense of self by way of being used routinely to meet the emotional needs of others. Sam vaknin I guess came up with the term and used this definition, I heard about it on Michele Nieves’ channel
Yes, those tactics are quite literally just textbook emotional abuse.
You do not need some special term that demonizes vulnerable people in the process. If you think what you went through was bad then imagine what people with NPD had to go through to turn out this way.
This is an excellent vid. 👏
Thank you.
I agree that the term is murky and that there are two primary sides to these situations. The person with a cluster b personality disorder and the person suffering at the expense of their manipulations (by their own admission, that’s what they’re up to most of the time. The “Self aware” one’s, as they’re often called, anyway), their need to self regulate, in a sense, by devaluing/degrading a person enough to put them beneath them, and their otherwise need for coercive control as a way to regulate themselves.
And whereas I have compassion and understanding for them, that has to come from a significant distance from now on.
I’m not even completely free from my “father’s”… machiavellian interpersonal squid games bs. So, it’s difficult to empathize too much until on the other side of it as empathizing with them, or feeling sympathy, tends to open another vector for roping you back into said squid games.
I’m speaking symbolically and somewhat hyperbolically with the “squid games” thing but… not by much. Imagine being upset because you couldn’t hurt someone as badly as you wanted to, after all… factor in said interpersonal squid games thing and yeah… that seems to be what a lot of people are referring to when they say “narcissistic abuse”. It’s so difficult to describe and or understand. Does it need a new name? Yeah. I’d say “narcissism” is often a very misleading name in and of itself, at least superficially…
On the other hand, I don’t want to “stigmatize” narcissistic people, but they are often a unique danger in and of themselves. Especially to anyone more susceptible to… whatever one wishes to refer to …what they tend to do and are kinda known for.
I have all the respect in the world for narcissistic people in treatment. Especially those who have been sharing information about themselves openly.
But those that are not… in my experience, and cumulatively, it has been like suffering at the hands of some nameless/faceless Lovecraftian nightmare.
And I’m not into it. Or cleaning up after it. And yet… that’s where the impetus to do so lies. With those who’ve suffered via the sociopathic machinations of narcissistic people.
I’m no clinician, and I’m sure I’m using terms you are not fond of. So, my apologies for that.
I don’t see things as either this or that but often this and that. In this case, I see what you’re saying and agree. But there is another, very difficult side to it as well.
That being said, I just want to emphasize how much I appreciate your work and videos.
I sent one just the other day to a “self aware narcissist” the other day. It was the one where you discussed an exercise for connecting with threads of being within that feeling of emptiness they tend to have. I thought that was brilliant. Almost like teaching dormant neurons to fire together again.
I don't want to do X, but * X *
@@stillnotstill que?
In a sentence- passive aggressive treatment is how I describe my own. He never struck me but he did very awful things in SILENCE. A shy narc obviously. It’s very clear shy narcs that stonewall are simply passive aggressive in any manner they can muster 🧡🏴 I now feel guilty I left but that’s part of the abuse
Was he actually diagnosed by a health practitioner with NPD? Because the traits you describe could be attributed to many things. Also, calling an actual sufferer of NPD 'a narc' is very disrespectful.
Never feel guilty for leaving a narc
Important for you to heal
Otherwise he will hurt you until you or him dies
I was married to one for 40years divorced 6years ago he is still finding ways to hurt me
Alienating my children from me
Financial abuse
Smear campaigns are all not enough for him
Please continue to heal without guilt and live your life you deserve better
You are not his mother
Good luck and
Blessings
I wonder if demonizing and dehumanizing the person with NPD is a way to eliminate feelings of compassion and empathy for them which makes it difficult for some to maintain boundaries and no contact. I can speak for myself that because I’m aware of how and why the person in my life has adapted to be who they are because of their childhood, and I’ve experienced glimpse of vulnerability I empathize… my heart hurts for their inner child… as a Mother myself I feel a sense of hurt because I do know that there is a suffering in him and it makes my own defenses soft and when I think about trying to make it work I recall how I mostly experienced all of the negative aspects of this disorder and was always chasing a moving goal post, was confused, anxious and internally disregulated myself… that was hellish. So in trying to be a good role model for my children who are older adolescents I embrace compassion and empathy from a safe distance to me that is unconditional Love… I still Love him and regard him as a human being having the human experience like the rest of us…. But I am not a martyr nor do I wish to be a tribute in vain.
Very good point!
I feel so sorry for the guys childhood, it must have been extremely painful, because the pain he has put me through is like a car accident.
I Really appreciate these videos. I highly suspect I have NPD. The PNI was much more helpful and relatable for me. Do you have any tips on what therapy or therapist I should seek out to work with personality disorders?
@Oakhard Woodroberts
He has a video on the topic of finding a therapist, don’t remember the name of it, but it’s there somewhere!
Thank you.
Toxic is toxic. The result is the same. Call it whatever you want. It’s painful and you deserve better. Get away from anything toxic. Trying to label it is yet another rabbit hole. Much love to all you good souls❤
I disagree that the conversation should stop at the word toxic. 'Toxic' means different things to different people. There are many kinds of toxic behavior, some that affect only the individual, some that affect those around them. I think we would all agree that mental healthcare should develop ways to conceptualize and treat 'toxic' behaviors.
I think we need to understand where certain behaviors come from. Just running in the other direction will not give us any insight, and will not help us navigate with world we live in
@@dogtrainingmexico I understand what you’re saying. I had to educate myself on all of it too. I’m just saying don’t get too stuck in the rabbit hole of trying to figure out something that at the end of the day won’t make sense. Narcs are a rubics cube that won’t make sense to a healthy loving soul. Best wishes to anyone dealing w mean spirits.
@@mynewlife1911 NPD is not just a diagnosis for a mental health condition relating to behavior but also alludes to a framework for understanding these behavioral patterns, even if it isn't complete or entirely accurate. Narcissism makes plenty of sense of you have enough knowledge, which we all can access today. Sure, many authors do not see exactly eye to eye on it but the gist of what they all have to say still forms a very coherent image of the maladaptive self-narrative driven defense, coping and compensatory mechanism of pathological narcissism.
I was suffering abuse an npd for 12 yes now....thank you for the information....I am very. Relived my apprehension s are gone
I'm crying.
Another great episode, would you ever touch on how NPD is linked to Pathological lying, magical thinking or is it related to a cognitive thought process deficit? Thank you
Very good video
Thank you
You're welcome
Hi there, just wanted to say thanks for making this channel and being generous with your knowledge and expertise. I actually only started delving into NPD a couple of months ago, so this is all pretty shocking to me. At 35 years old I’ve finally realized that there is a term to describe someone like my dad and his family (narcissists). Why is it that narcissism is such a hot topic? How come I don’t see as much chatter about other personality disorders? Also, I understand that as a therapist specializing in NPD treatment you come from a compassionate place, and while intellectually I understand that narcissists are deeply wounded people with very sad childhoods, the people who suffered years of relentless abuse under these individuals find it difficult to express the same compassion. Have people called you an NPD apologist? Do you think you might be alienating survivors of narcissistic abuse through your content? I’m not at all suggesting these things, I’m just genuinely curious. Thank you for your time.
Thanks for watching. Narcissism has become an umbrella term on the internet to refer to almost anyone who engages in interpersonally abusive behavior. I have made several videos about this phenomenon.
Yes, I have been called a “narcissist apologist.” It’s a ridiculous accusation. Would you call someone who explains the psychology behind depression a “depression apologist?” How about someone who explains the dynamics of substance use disorders. Are they “addiction apologists?”
The focus of this channel is to explain the mental illness of pathological narcissism and NPD. I do so in an even-handed and clinically accurate manner. I don’t shy away from the negative facets of this disorder. But I also don’t stigmatize. I defend all individuals from abusive comments. I have heard from many abuse survivors that they find a humanizing perspective on narcissism to be helpful. Many others have thanked me for helping them finally truly understand the person who hurt them, or the mentally ill person they love. Then there are the many individuals who identify as having pathological narcissism or NPD who find my channel helpful in their own healing. I know it’s hard to believe, but there are MANY self-aware narcissists out there looking for help. Not every forum about narcissism needs to be for abuse-survivors, because narcissism should not be synonymous with abuse. That is an internet distortion. I firmly believe there is enough room in the world and in people’s hearts for compassion and kindness. If people disagree, then they are welcome to watch any of the approximately 1,000,000 ultra-stigmatizing videos on narcissism available on UA-cam. I’m not making anyone tune in to my channel.
@@healnpd thanks for answering!
Alienating “survivors”? My gosh, is there not allowed to be a single place where the people with the disorder are allowed to be the focus? The entire internet is there for any such self-centered person who can’t bare someone/a channel that they can literally block sharing a nuanced view of NPD. That’s quite a narcissistic trait, actually.
@@refreshingAnd yes indeed
I agree that the term "narcissistic abuse" is murky and sometimes misused; however, Dr. Ramani Durvasula argues in her new book that the diagnosis of NPD should be disbanded because "there is little substantial evidence for accessible treatment, and because there is little reliability across clinicians in assigning this diagnosis." She uses the term "narcissistic abuse" in her book - not to demonize anyone, but as a descriptor to help survivors not minimize their experiences. She also describes NPD as a "paradoxical illness that may harm the people the narcissistic person interacts with more than it harms the narcissistic individuals themselves." This is a complex issue with diverse perspectives.
Of the experts on narcissism that I've encountered, I am as of this writing most impressed with Dr. Mark Ettensohn. I appreciate that he doesn't vilify narcissists. In fact, he says that this mental illness is treatable. At the same time, he cautions the rest of us to beware when dealing with them.
Thanks! I'm glad you are finding my channel helpful.
Thanks for this explaining and interesting video 👍
You explain it very good so we now understand why they don't have empathy and not capable of it.
But I am a bit confused if Romani who is a very educated professional therapist within this area NPD says they have it but don't use it. Doesn't she mean cognitive empathy or even emotional that they FEEL IT BUT NOT SHOW IT?
That's the confusing that you are both psychologist but have two different views and opinions with an important question; Do narcissists have empathy or not?
Is it different between narcissists and also between different degrees?
So that low grade and covert has that lack due to the reasons you explained and for overt narcissists they have it cognitive but don't show it? Or sometimes show it fake with their mask to manipulate?
Psychology has a long history of disagreement and competing theories concerning narcissism. Many consider the two most prominent theorists concerning this disorder to have produced incompatible models. As your comment suggests, there is widespread confusion about what the word narcissism actually means - at what point is it disordered, what are the essential features of the disorder, how should we measure, can it be effectively treated, etc. You might be interested in my two-part video titled “What is Narcissism” on my channel. It goes through some of this stuff, as does my video in how to treat narcissism.
Are there any studies that support your assertion that NPD can be treated successfully and not just some vague awareness of what they are doing?
The worst thing is one day week years you never know when what where they will appear
Mark… God Bless you!!! As an only child,now 63 years young. ***Your empathetic insight has helped me peel back the layers of my 88 year old narcissistic father…..Who has simply devastated every person in his path…
Here in Texas …You are appreciated!!!
Would it make more sense then to call it Cluster B abuse? I would define this form of abuse (intentional or not) as the formation of a trauma bond through variable intermittent reinforcement as well as the continuing abuse cycle of rage/tantrums followed by shallow affection. It should be criminal for those who have received a diagnosis to not inform potential romantic partners. The psychological abuse is torturous, and it doesn't matter if it is intentional or not. The pain from the relationship often seems less than the pain of breaking the trauma bond, which is why victims stay even if they are being abused.
Interesting. I appreciate your content. I wonder how many ppl with npd have committed murder or have been the perpetrator of abuse as opposed to histrionic or BPD how many are the victims of abuse. I think that distinguishing feature stands to reason tbh.
You know what that same thing crossed my mind and I ve been thinking about it!
Like you, I feel compassion for these individuals and appreciate knowing that with a good therapist they can integrate all facets of their personalities without having to be perfect. I cannot imagine not being able to just be themselves. Thanks again for a humane look at how these people can be helped.
This video is incredibly helpful. You described my abuser perfectly: desperate for attention, desperate for approval, desperate for affirmation. It must be exhausting. Please do a video on the dangers of enabling this behavior or "feeding the monster." Sorry not sorry. 🤷♀️
Spot on doc , I was robbed as a child now I have a false self ! In addition I developed a few other mental health disorders
Good. Facts.👋👋
Sir, I was hoping I could reach you personally. Where might I reach you? I am a youtuber who is also a journalist who would like to talk to you a bit for an awareness piece.
You can reach me through my website at www.DrEttensohn.com
@@healnpd thank you, I will reach out soon.
Hi, i have recently been diagnosed with ASPD, i am still trying to figure it out, but everywhere i look its the same message, we are "bad eggs" "monsters" "stay away at all costs" "they can't be cured" etc... You're the only person i have come across on UA-cam who hasn't been belittling, biased or insulting. Unfortunately, i can't find anything on ASPD on your channel, but I have watched your videos on NPD and can relate with almost everything, so my question is, how different is NPD and ASPD? Does narcissism present it's self differently in those with ASPD? Also do you feel we're untreatable?
This is a good question, and one that I will need to do some thinking and reading about to answer well. I’m glad to know that you are finding my content helpful.
@@healnpd Thank you, for the reply. I will keep a eye out for new videos.
Nicely done! I disagree that your official industry's stance is well-equipped to handle this clientele.
I often ask why I didn't manifest a cluster B disorder. I keep asking the psychiatrists I work for, why not me? Literally all the ingredients were there and I do struggle with cptsd, particularly low self-esteem and feeling that I am a burden to others, pathologically inadequate, etc. Everyone's best guess is that I got enough secure attachment to my gentle, compassionate mother to become neurologically robust, before she became entirely numbed out by my father's abuse and assumed the enabling role he wanted her to play. Or perhaps being the scapegoat child in my family created a sense of injustice or indignation that strengthened my individual resolve to not do those things to others, to make myself as unlike him as possible. One doctor even thinks some of the oppositional defiant traits I must've inherited from my father made it just a little easier to resist becoming his mini me. Regardless, I didn't develop NPD or ASPD and outgrew the oppositional stuff. I did not repeat the cycle of violence. I deliberately sought out parent training when I was pregnant to make it as sure as possible that I didn't repeat the cycle, and I found I had more than enough empathy and stability to be a healthy parent the majority of the time. As insidious and harmful to one's inner world as narcissistic abuse can be, I believe that it's not the highly deterministic doom some may think it is, and it's so complex, so multifactorial, that we'll never be able to entirely predict it, tame it, end it. What we should do, imo, is build as good of a societal support structure for all children as we can, and a better way to approach and intervene with struggling narcissistic parents so they'll be more open to change. I have absolutely no idea what either of those pie in the sky aspirations really looks like in real life, but I do know that I turned out as a normative personality entirely by chance. Sheer luck. I'd like a little more certainty than I had for future generations.
Nothing wrong with MY understanding, You Tube, team!
Thank you, as someone who thinks abuse is abuse and inexcusable no matter what, and the way that people with NPD get generally talked about is inexcusable as well, including equating that with being abusive, I just came from the UA-cam channel of a, I guess he's a counselor or therapist or something, and a lot of it is great stuff but then it's like. Hey just because you're (you = tge other UA-camr) talking about family members doesn't mean you have to talk about narcissistic abuse in that way and please as a professional facilitate different language around the very real abuse that people are experiencing.
I generally sympathize with what you’re saying. As a term, NA is way overused.
But I don’t think this definition perfectly hits the bull's eye, because NA here is defined as something completely active ("using", "exploiting") on the narcissist’s part, while ignoring things that happen _as a response_ to the other party simply being unwilling to comply to being used or exploited or to comply to polishing the bubble of the false self. That is, it ignores what happens to the narcissist when s/he receives a narcissistic injury (in the psychodynamic sense). And as anyone close to a narcissist knows, that is where _most_ of the abuse comes from. A person can use or exploit another without being a narcissist - that’s just actions. But very small and even imagined things can cause narcissistic injuries to narcissists (and other disordered people, but they also, in that case, react to feeling _narcissistic_ injuries) and then you're fair game. That’s why the sheer quantity of things that occur in most relationships without being very problematic turns into abuse in this case, as the other party starts walking on eggshells while their personality slowly withers away - to avoid the reactions of hurting the false self. I had a relationship with someone very likely npd. And I, for one, would _gladly_ have tolerated _more_ exploitation, more of being used, if it wasn’t for the unpredictable, arbitrary and hyper-charged reactions to things I wouldn’t - and couldn’t - even dream of making a thing out of.
This is where things like devaluing and even manipulation comes in - to preserve what’s often called the false self. But that is not using or exploitation (unless I misinterpret what you mean by ‘using' (in which case exploitation also is a form of use and hence redundant)). So in my humble opinion, if I were you I’d consider phrasing it something more like:
Narcissistic Abuse: Using, exploiting or suppressing* someone in a way that negates or diminishes their subjectivity, selfhood or value** in order to meet one’s own self-esteem needs.
*or something like that - penalizing/ interdicting/overbearing/quelling/quashing/defeating; you get the point.
**or self-esteem
This doesn’t encompass conscious manipulation, gaslighting and things like that either. But in a quite diplomatic way it still preserves some elements of what most people that has, or has had, relationships with narcissists, feel is the most dominant and deteriorative part of it - as a direct result of the narcissist’s need to regulate self-esteem. And it is also closer to what many self-aware narcissists, often in a less diplomatic way, report about what happens when they feel insecure.
Thanks for an interesting and humanizing video :)
I generally agree.
dismissing, ridiculing, undermining, browbeating, torturing consciously
I am 100% against the term "Narcissistic Abuse" but this may be the best definition I've ever heard to support the term actually having a distinct purpose in our lexicon. Your example would explain the actions of cult leaders, but it would not be applied to cult members. Cult members can engage in what people call "narcissistic abuse" but it's not to meet their self-esteem needs. It's because they've been programmed to act that way, or they are under duress. It's one of the main reasons I boycott the term. We've had a more suitable term that's been in use for decades: it's called "psychological abuse," and perfectly describes the abuse without making any allusion to any particular diagnosis, i.e. NPD. I appreciate your contribution to this discussion.
@@poisonouspeople Thanks. Yes, I thought about including "security" or 'safety'' since that's, most likely, what it really boils down to in the end. But then it would, as you say, include for example cult members, bullies and honestly basically everyone from time to time. Hence, if the term should be used, it should be used for behaviors pertaining to self-esteem, as basically the original myth says. In a sense I, too, prefer "psychological abuse", but I think it may still be too wide a term to not blur the differences in some situations. I would, as an example, prefer to deal with a bully rather than a narcissistic partner any day of the week, for reasons quite specific to the narcissistic condition. I'll check your channel out, as I read in other comments here that you're making a video on this of your own.
@@johnandersson8258 I have been away for several weeks . . . but it is definitely on my list of "to do" videos. 🙂
Everyone is healing they hatred by hated!!! So question is , who’s better than?!
What can a spouse do to make it a near perfect environment for growth and the feeling of safety? Even when things go south.
4:35 is the apex
Is it possible that an abuser will get help to recover from NPD.
From my experience the abuser would not take any advice - regardless of the source.
His policy only.
Made me ill.
So sad.
If you were to start from scratch, what terms would you use for which actions?
What if you are aware of the false self and you hate it.? And don’t want it it was just what you needed to play to survive. And how to heal it and become autentic
whats authentic space?
Was married to a narcissist for 28yrs it WAS HELL, didn't know about NPD then, only problem he thinks he is perfect and everyone else is the problem, he doesn't accept accountability for his own actions and all the affairs he has had and the pain he caused the whole family, it's EXTREMELY PATHETIC the way they live, it ABSOLUTELY DISGUSTING, he was NEVER ABLE TO DO FAMILY or have ANY FAMILY VALUES, he 66 now and still running around after women he is a LAUGHING STOCK, plus MONEY is his main priority too, nothing to do with children or Grandkids they don't know him at all, just a SAD SAD WAY TO LIVE, but you have to save yourself at the end of the day.
Where can a family get help with a family member who has narcissistic personality disorder? They don't think anything is wrong with them and will not go to therapy but there must be a way to help them.
You may find my book helpful.
Would you ever write a book about BPD?
I have one that is about 20% finished. I’m having a difficult time with it for some reason.
Is it difficult for them to recognize others boundaries, or do they just not respect them?
I think it’s both. It is difficult for anyone with a personality disorder to recognize boundaries. The grandiosity in NPD can also make the person disregard boundaries due to a feeling of entitlement or self-righteousness. In a vulnerable phase, the feeling of pressure/need/insecurity can cause the person to blow through boundaries in an attempt to get their emotional needs met.
Narcissistic abuse is any form of abuse perpetuated by a cluster b that intends to destroy your sense of self and/or your ability to feel positive emotions
They can’t be healed. I l live with NPD for 20 years. I didn’t know he was NPD. The info about NPD came to me at the end of relationship. But what I have seen at the end of relationship is a totally crazy person starting the a new cycle again. I was aware of it, he wasn’t. It was clear as daylight-he got his new supply the same way he got me.
Did he ever seek treatment? I’m not saying NPD heals itself. Someone has to want help.
Condemnation isn't productive. We do heal. I can say this for sure, there are some narc victim channels that put out pure garbage, but I have never felt the urge to go into their space and correct or condemn them for demonizing the condition or outright hate mongering. We all have lapsed in judgement and empathy at times. Generally speaking, society allows a certain group to be hated at different times.... I remember when it was ok to tell lies and villianize gay men. Glad that's over. Hope this ends soon too.
Was he diagnosed by a professional or did you diagnose him yourself?
@@refreshingAnd they are all diagnosed by unqualified morons you know that.
I come from a narcissist family and married a man with NPD. I work on forgiving my family and him for damaging me and our 4 children. 3 of my children are narcissists.
I live with my trauma and the continued abuse because narcs are everywhere. Also my family members trample on my human rights and continue to assassinate my character . My ex taught our children to be narcs.
So I live a life of oppression and am seen as the monster and they’re the victims.
My ex knew who he was and married me because I was conditioned to prop up the narcissist.
Healing, therapy - forget that. I haven’t found anyone who understands narcissistic abuse.
Most therapists make judgments and either dismiss the abuse or see me as the cause of the abuse. I’m dealing with pathological narcissism here. I can’t get away from it, I’ve tried. Death is my only escape from the ruthless abuse that I live with.
I gave understanding, love, forgiveness and what good did that do me?
It sounds like you are really having a difficult time. I hope you are able to find some help.
Me too. Learned behaviour.... Nearly killed me.... Organs shut down.
Left aftet 40 +yrs. Got better without meds or opp.
Fine & well since.
Im amazed at how well Im doing.
The definition of narcissism is so broad and encapulates so much because narcissism is the sin nature. We all have one. We are born with it. For instance, parents have to teach toddlers how to share, not how to be selfish. I respect if you are not religious and do not believe that there is a God, but regardless, this is the state of things. We come out selfish. This is pervasive across all of humanity.
Amen 🙏🏻
I'm reasonably aware of how people become narcissists. But don't expect me to sympathize with them. They have destroyed my life, so my heart isn't bleeding. I don't point fingers at them and call them names; I just avoid them, like everyone should.
You had to come to the one place that people are seeking help for npd and say that? What was your motivation? Was it meant to help? Was it meant to hurt? Was it validating? Was it seeking validation? Think about how much you just devalued an entire group of people. Please try to have a little more empathy for these people who are trying to heal. And that "like everyone should" is not just devaluing, but it's brutal and condemning. This is just my opinion, but it's really not cool. But, I get it, you're hurting. But you're allowing your hurt to lead you into dehumanizing and othering people. I think you may need to do some more healing.
I think this place may be triggering for you and you may not be ready to take perspective yet. DOC SIPES is a great channel for healing and she's very practical in her approach and education. She's helped me a great deal. If you don't mind the advice, you might check her out. And don't worry about this comment, we all get in our feelings sometimes.
@@whitewings2363great comment. 😊
@@whitewings2363 exactly. How many resources are there for victims of abuse compared to NPDs trying to get better? And this person has to find one of the only resources for the latter and project all of their hurt in the comments section. Pathetic
@@jackgoff6215 It is quite telling of you having such a disproportionate reaction to a few words when they are simply expressing the pain that they have been caused. Especially looking as to how you feel the need to call a victim of narcissistic abuse 'pathetic'. Wow.
@@whitewings2363
Hello! I would like a few questions answered whenever you have the time.
Why do you believe people with NPD are trying to heal? i.e., How do you know this?
Why should one have empathy for individuals who not only do not empathize in return (even if they can't help it) but actually *weaponize* empathy?
What about the fact that these individuals who suffer but consequentially cause immense suffering in others *already* dehumanize other people, not due to other people's shortcomings but because of how they view other people, a means to an ends and nothing more? You didn't seem to point that out for the sake of balance. Why?
Why do you think that this is the only place this person came to and shared their opinion? Why do you think this is the only place individuals with NPD come to? Would you really have a problem with NPDs complaining about how *they* feel in the comments section of videos focused on healing *from* abuse portrayed by narcissistic individuals?
Why do you think them sincerely believing that people ought to avoid those with narcissistic defense mechanisms is akin to condemning these individuals who, because of how they suffer internally, needlessly cause suffering in others? Is it not a good thing given that it would result in far less suffering? Why should narcissists not be avoided if they cause such immense destruction and damage?
It probably was validating to the pain they have undeservedly experienced, yes.
It probably did help them with some immediate relief.
It probably wasn't meant to hurt anyone.
Who do you think caused the hurt that results in the person 'othering' people who know they are abusive but persist in these patterns?
This person has every right to express their feelings. They did not direct any attack - of which there wasn't even one - at you, and thus aren't responsible for your feelings. They have the right to freedom of expression, and so do we all. This includes you too, and I have no problem with it. But I think you read far more into what they had to say than was present.
Please understand that these are not loaded or leading questions but sincere curiosity from someone who can be very fallible as to what he knows about this mental health condition, but is simply confused as to the sentiment behind your message. This is due to the glaring holes and *seemingly* baseless assumptions in your argument.
They are very cruel, lack of empaty, they make you cry and then they are mad at you, they are humans? Many people had a difficult/ narcissistic abused childhood and are not NP.....they choose to be cruel.....
@Prot91 - The idea that people with this form of mental illness “choose to be cruel” is simply not helpful. Not only does it contradict most of what we know about the impact of complex developmental and relational trauma, but it also contradicts the clinical literature on this particular form of personality disorder, which is dominated by internal preoccupations about self worth and self esteem. The pwNPD is primarily concerned with maintaining a positive self image. For the most part, cruelty or mistreatment that results from this primary process is incidental. For example, some pwNPD will treat others cruelly as a way to boost their self esteem. The primary goal is self esteem, not cruel treatment. Complicating matters is the presence of reality distorting defensive operations in NPD that occur at the unconscious level. These mechanisms, like denial, projection, acting out, splitting, omnipotent control, and idealization/devaluation distort perception and produce rationalizations of poor or abusive behaviors after-the-fact.
@@healnpdFirst it is not a mental illness! and have you been a victim of a malignant narcissist???
@Prot91 - All mental disorders are forms of mental illness by definition. I appreciate that you are watching this channel and educating yourself about NPD.
I’m curious are you diagnosed NPD?
No. I’m a psychologist and author with a clinical specialty in treating pathological narcissism and NPD.
Gaslighting and double bind.
Ok so ive been in a d out of therapy for decades but most of it they didnt know. Stranded Im healing myself. Feeling like im walking as a leader although Inever thought that would be neccesary You know you say ppl with NPD see objects , but they kinda are, on the path of the H uman race at one place or another (its not like these objects have enormous amounts ofknowledge is all Im saying)
Well said. No one wants to be a narcissist and if they don't know why they are doing it, how can they get help and how can any one say they are demonic?
Because when people tell you that what you are doing is hurting them and the person ignores or denies it, they then know and don't care.
You state that gaslighting, manipulation, splitting etc. are all hallmarks of borderline personality organisation and, by extension, ALL personality disorders.
I find this very interesting because you never hear about people with Cluster A or Cluster C personality disorders engaging in these behaviours. Most people think of them as unique to people witn Cluster B personality disorders.
The tendencies toward dramatic thinking, impulsivity, and interpersonal conflict that characterize cluster b disorders make them a more frequent focus of attention. But splitting, projection, denial, projective identification, omnipotent control, and idealization/devaluation are frequently present in other personality disorders as well. They are caused by difficulties adhering to reality, confusion between the self and others, and disrupted continuity of internal experience. For example, individuals with paranoid personality disorder (cluster a) frequently project their own unacceptable wishes and impulses onto others, engage in splitting by perceiving others as all bad, engage in projective identification by suspicious treatment of others that makes others feel like they are bad or are doing something wrong, etc. Individuals with obsessive-compulsive personality disorder (cluster c) frequently engage in spitting, idealization/devaluation, and omnipotent control. They feel they must adhere to an extremely rigid set of standards in order to prevent catastrophic fragmentation and loss of self. They tend to project these standards onto others as well, holding their loved ones accountable to unrealistic rules and expectations. They tend to be extremely controlling of their partners and children, reflecting a fundamental confusion between self and others.
Personality disorders are really just personality styles that sit at a particular level of internal disorganization (borderline or psychotic). This level of disorganization is what produces most of the dysfunction, not the style itself (which is mostly just where the dysfunction is aimed in the person’s life). The same basic defenses are found throughout personality disorder categories, just dressed up a little bit differently.
Who wants to remember their childhood , it s hilarious