Why Narcissists Lack Empathy
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- Опубліковано 4 тра 2024
- In this video, Dr. Ettensohn outline 4 reasons why empathy may be impaired in pathological narcissism and NPD:
1. Lack of self awareness
2. Objectification of the self and others
3. A 'starvation mindset'
4. Avoidant attachment styles
Dr. Ettensohn also discusses his disagreement with Dr. Ramani's ideas concerning empathy and NPD, as expressed in the following video on her channel: • Narcissists don't lack...
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References:
Ettensohn, M. D. (2013). The relational roots of narcissism: Exploring relationships between attachment style, acceptance by parents and peers, and measures of grandiose and vulnerable narcissism. Dissertation Abstracts International: Section B: The Sciences and Engineering, 73(10-B(E)).
I will remove comments that are abusive to any individual (including myself) or population. This includes comments that are abusive toward pwNPD.
I applaud with you for this! I do the same with my pages and channels.
Thank you
There is a spectrum of narcissism. From the amount we all have to survive as an ego identity all the way up to sociopathic, psychopathic, sadistic murderous killer. This guy obviously hasnt been on the receiving end of a covert narcissist. Only people who have can understand the complexity, the depth of depravity, the evil smirk, the systematic, conscious orchestration of abuse.
This channel is for pathological narcissists with NPD who recognize their condition and want to heal (good luck with finding an audience).
It is not for people who have been abused by narcissists, it will obviously be very triggering to hear this guy speak.
@@sailingaeolus I'm with you, why give them ammo? It's been spoilt, even recovered ones don't seem that recovered to me, just holding off some of the more intense behaviour.. I think this compassionate thing is getting silly now.
you scammer cant heal npd.. you are the abuser here...
The narc may be drowning and pulling others down with them to survive however in my experience the narc is the one that capsizes the boat, pulls everyone down and walks away with no remorse while blaming the people they drown for the whole mess.
That’s been my experience as well.
My experience too
Yes
Exactly this!!! ❤️🌍🌏🍻🌎🎼🎨🖼️🌄😇❤️
You are absolutely right!!!!!!!!
Would love to see a video on the difference between narcissist who grew up in an abusive home and those who were overly praised.
Yes!!!!
Being constantly on a pedestal is psychological abuse
Narcissists who grew up in abusive homes have antisocial traits and are closer to criminal behavior. Narcissists who were overly praised become smug prosocial Narcissists that do everything they can to maintain a good social image, they are what Ramani calls "communal Narcissists".
I think it's the same as they view themselves as the most victimized and the most intelligent, and the most handsome/beautiful.
yes
I like how you recognize the human in the person with NPD, I think society tends to forget people with NPD are human first because they become unrecognizable to us because of their detachment from their self. I was raised by three caregivers with NPD and It's important for my healing that I understand my caregivers distress in order to let go of my pain. Watching your perspective has allowed me to humanize them instead of seeing them as monsters.
Children do not have the capacity to intellectualize around the emotional neglect and abuse they experience at the hands of narcissist "care-givers". Severe damage for life!!!
Yes and yes. It has done leaps and bounds for my healing to see the person in the disorder, rather than see them as a raging monster that is out to get us, like too many channels make out. There are a number of self aware narcissist channels that are very helpful too. Though a few of them still buy too much into the plotting and scheming model of narcissism, because they still follow Dr. Ramani as the ultimate expert and guru. I know she really validates victims of narcisssim, but I think at this point she does more long term harm than good,even for the victims of NPD abuse and definitely for the actual narcissist side.
Lee, Mental Healness got me started. Then Ben, Raw Motivations helped me recognize the trauma bond from a 10 year relationship. For me, recognizing what a trauma bond was took a big weight off me. I'd been out of the relationship for 4 months, but still mentally and emotionally stuck and obsessed, esp. given that ultimate panacea of "no contact" wasn't possible. Now I have a much better relationship w/ my 75 year old mother, who won't change or ever be diagnosed. My own mental shift made a huge difference though in her actually wanting to reach out to me for a change and be a bit more motherly.
This is incorrect, his videos are giving you the false and hopeful notion that somehow this disorder cannot be helped...oh it happened in childhood...etc.. because people with empathy cannot fathom why anyone would come to shut it off....it's not like that - i had a narcissist describe it himself - the very way I thought it was...it's like cancer spreading he put it- one bad choice "sin" lead to more "sins" and worse behaviour, and if anything people felt sorry for his trauma and because people feel sorry for them ( like I thought) they get away with more and more...people with empathy essentially enable them. I was severely mentally abused as are many people and yet many people don't become narcissists...the psychologist here I have to say I think takes an overly compassionate view due which could be due to his own inexperience with narcissists. At some point people are responsible for how they treat others. An abusive person is not some victim of their mental health- this is not a mental health issue or something foisted on an innocent child...they make choices, even children make choices and so they are culpable, not at all in need of being "overprotected" by this psychologist who is guarding the comment section - which i find infantilizing to all parties.
@@user-me3op3wg7v - pathological narcissism is not a fancy term for “abuser.” This condition is sometimes expressed in the form of interpersonal antagonism and emotional disconstraint, which can take the form of abusive behaviors. But abusive behavior is NOT the core feature of pathological narcissism or NPD. Unstable self-esteem is THE defining feature of these forms of mental illness.
Wrong. Abusive behaviour IS a defining characteristic because there is no way you can be a narcissist without being abusive in some form. Any person who thinks of people as "less than" will be abusive - for whatever reasons they feel "superior" as even people with minimal NPD will in the least be withholding in their relationships which is incredibly hurtful, they will one up themselves - there bye putting the other person down...how could a person even recognize a narcissist without recognizing their abusive patterns. So you are wrong . and no it' s not only always a disorder of self esteem. In most cases there is a sociopathic quality present.@@healnpd
This, all of this. I’ve noticed the trifecta of core wounds in narcissists: abandonment, unworthy, rejection.
The unworthy wound is the core shame.
The rejection causes them to be defensive and use control dramas.
And the abandonment wound causes them to live in deep fear and create a false self, perfectionist tendencies, lie and manipulate.
These wounds consume them (drown them) so they cannot escape the grip.
I believe the treatment of these 3 through several therapies and the practice of radical honesty and vulnerability that many NPD symptoms go away.
They can replace their thoughts with “I matter and you matter.” “I’m okay and you’re okay.”
No matter how you want to describe them they have the same result on their victims. They destroy them emotionally and physically. Escape if you can!
Agree 100%!
😂😂😂😂😂 OMG! It's so great. Sad and funny, because ONLY other survivors who lived this experience are able to understand the level of destruction... and this is the advice. Agree 100%!
The idea of the channel is not to advise victims because everyone is doing that already including the self aware narcissist Lee Hammick. The idea is to figure out inconsistencies in what mental health professionals think about this disorder and come up with possible treatments. For example not sure if you know this... But Borderline and Antisocial are treated with cognitive behavioral therapy. But it seems to be harder to treat narcissists. Antisocial is easier to treat even though ASPD is much closer to developing into a murderer than a narcissist. Why is it possible to treat people who are very close to murderer psychology and not narcissists?... So yeah.
I never get tired of laughing because my mom shamed me so much I developed a shame complex, and then was shamed for having the shame complex. Now she's trying to shame me for seeking help. A big problem I had with my parents is that I KNEW what I was experiencing was emotional abuse, I TRIED to tell them but I was gaslight into believing that my "normal" mindset was in fact wrong. I had severe depression and they put ME in therapy for it. My father would give me a list of issues I wasn't supposed to talk about because it would make him look bad. Every time I got close to the real issue, I clammed up because I believed so hard that my parents had my best interest in heart. It was like I was in therapy to make my mask better, not to fix anything.
@@samwalker3660 Narcissists are OFTEN victims of narcissistic abuse themselves. They just processed the abuse differently and were often praised for having those traits themselves. I could never cry hard enough for the abuse to stop, but when I was 15 something snapped. I decided that I wasn't going to be the victim anymore. I destroyed my bedroom and the hallway leading to it. I punched holes in the walls and threw anything within arms reach, yelling the same way they did to me. When I calmed down, everyone was gone and I got my peace. Basically I started to use their own strategy against them. If I could make them feel ashamed of how bad of parents they were and cause the same fear of bodily harm they did to me, at least SOME of my needs would be met.
The drowning analogy is accurate.
Throw them a life preserver, but whatever you do stay away from someone who is drowning or they will pull you under and both lives lost.
Are they evil? That depends on your definition of evil - maybe evil can be defined as someone who is "drowning" and pulling others under trying to save themselves.
Maybe most of us would be evil if we were "drowning" too.
Being a Victim does not nullify being a Perpetrator. It may be the reason why they are a Perpetrator, but they are still a Perpetrator.
Excellent, balanced thoughts! I agree.
I like this bit of wisdom
Thank you for this comment
Some in that same situation don’t pull others down with them
IT'S The Making Excuses For EVIL Behavior....Either You Haven't Been Burnt BAD ENOUGH Or You Are The NARC. That's Why It's Victims, Crimes And Death Just Giving Them A Pat On The Back.
Whether narcissists intend to manipulate others or not, they do real damage to people’s lives! Having experienced some of this harm myself, the danger over time becomes being worn down by such abuse to the point in which one’s internal “tapes” of toxicity all but take over one’s life!
Dr. Ramani and others have been invaluable in helping me get “the knowledge”. While her message is never to wish harm on the narcissist, it is also not to execute it on one’s self!
by understanding you can forgive, "hate the sin but not the sinner". See the wounded infant that was forced to make the self into an object.
This is the big debate. Are we looking at it as a moral failing or a mental illness. If indeed it is a mental illness, then it would appear that it's a stop on the way to psychosis, where the people who have it have a greatly reduced grasp of reality.
This comment!
NARCS Don't Care About No Forgiveness.....BEST To Forgive Your SELF For Putting Up With Them. Matter Of FACT They Don't Think They Do Wrong Or NOT Sorry About IT.
#valerie riggins I agree. They don't care about being forgiven. I don't care to forgive them either!
In my experience, empathy is only extended when it benefits the narc, as it is a conditional response over an actual emotion.
As someone with significant pathologically narcissistic traits, I can say with certainty that I sometimes do kind things simply because I care.
Not all narcissistic individuals are the same. People with Antisocial Personality Disorder are more utterly callous, and many narcissists have comorbid ASPD or traits thereof.
This incessant demonization of people with this MENTAL ILLNESS is not benefitting anybody.
@@jaimebanks8377 I hesitated to reply but decided to take the chance. I stated that ‘in my experience’ what ‘I’ have experienced living with people who exhibit narcissistic/sociopath traits combined with years of formal study, informal study, and personal therapy. On both sides. It was by no means a broad brush indictment. Merely a personal observation. Yet you perceived it within the narc mindset and took offense. I get that and I’m sorry. It’s ok. Yet you have reinforced my position with your final sentence. Also, I question if you actually have been diagnosed as npd, for if you were you would know that npd is a cluster B personality disorder. Not an actual mental illness. The differences are profound. I wish you well.
@sharongrause6005 - Personality disorders are forms of mental illness. I see this misconception frequently enough in the comments that I might make a video addressing it specifically.
‘Mental illness’ is the umbrella term that includes all diagnosable mental disorders. Personality disorders like NPD fall under that heading.
You don’t have to take my word for it. The American Psychiatric Association agrees. Here’s a quote: “Mental Illness...refers collectively to all diagnosable mental disorders.”
Reference: www.psychiatry.org/patients-families/what-is-mental-illness#:~:text=Mental%20illnesses%20are%20health%20conditions,social%2C%20work%20or%20family%20activities.
@@WaterBug46 I agree. "Demonization" is projection. When I tell people what my narcissistic parents have done, they get angry instead of apologizing. That is the hallmark of a narcissist, especially the malignant ones. Like O.J. Simpson.
I've not been diagnosed with NPD. I display many of the traits listed in the DSM, however.
Cluster B personality disorders, like all of the personality disorders, are mental illnesses. I'm not sure why you think otherwise. They are severe mental illnesses, in fact.
I also have a lot of experience dealing with pathogically narcissistic individuals. My family is composed of narcissists. I was severely abused throughout much of my life by psychologically narcissistic family members.
I'll never forget the day I was horrified to discover the person I had called my best friend for several years was a narcissist and a bully who had emotionally sucked me dry like a vampire. I'll also add that I realized that she had been my best friend but I was not her's. Although we still work together I vanished like Harry Houdini and still maintain a safe distance for my mental health.
Exactly my experience! Thank you.
@AmandathePandaBooks youre a narcissist
Same here, a close friend since four years old, grew up together, pals for nearly 50 years, made a lot of allowances for bad behaviour then one day it clicked. Went total no contact.
@@dociledeer3818same here. I considered her my sister (we r both only child) I was always there for her, but after 30 years of her not being there for me and people telling me stuff she did or said behind my back and some times it wasn’t even behind my back. She would make outrageous claims to which I wd always apologize, even then it took several more years of me directly seeing what others saw before I finally cut ties. It was hard to accept the reality and I mourned the loss of what I thought I had. Now I choose to look back as to a learning time for me. I have learned how to recognize when and how to set my boundaries. Still a process but getting better. I hope same for u. Thank u for sharing, I don’t feel so silly now.
I appreciate the in depth explanation but I think Dr Ramani simply acknowledges that they are no longer the victim when they decide to prey on other people.
Narcs lack of emphaty? Because they prefer to be evil. They know what's emphaty all about but that's not what they believe in. They think emphaty is stupid. That's how evil and crooked minds think. To satisfy their ego, they create problems out of nothing. They explode madness when they don't kike something. Whoever close to them will become very confused, you don't know where the madness is all about. It's a roller coaster ride living with the narcissist. Poor wife, poor children, If you're not crazy, you'll become one.
Ramani almost exclusively talks about narcissism as a personality trait and not about the NPD diagnosis. Almost no one with NPD would ever seek treatment unless it is court ordered. The NPD diagnosis is almost a waste of time. I liked the second observation you made about Objectification of self and others. Either everyone is all good or all bad, all shiny or all dirty. There is no room or thought of nuance in others. People are either to be placed on the pedestal with them, used like a tool for self benefit or thrown into the trash heap.
I have a wait list a mile long full of people who identify as having pathological narcissism or NPD and who are desperate for treatment. In fact, it’s one of the main reasons I started this channel.
I think the dialogue surrounding this disorder too readily collapses into the two-dimensional paradigm of predator and prey, doer and done-to, abuser and victim. It is challenging, because no one wants to invalidate survivors, and safe spaces are important. But we also need spaces that can make room for the reality that pathological narcissism, mental illness in general, the swirl of public stigma surrounding this diagnosis, and the complexity of actual human relationships make this a very complex issue.
I agree.
I understand narcissist to have cognitive empathy. They knew exactly what to use against me, but they had no mercy.
@@astridmiller7938 Yes! It’s soooo MEAN!!
And they have empathy for themselves. Do something to them and see how they act
@@rosettemarshall3024 Giant Babies!
All narcissists are not the same, and just cause they know what to do to make u feel things doesn’t mean they have empathy or understand it. Borderline and narcissists are caused by the same thing and are more similiar than u think
If they have “cognitive empathy” meaning they understand the actions fully and don’t care, that’s sociopathy
Being a child of a narcissist I can answer in questions if anyone reading this wants to know if their mom is a narcissist. I finally broke off the relationship a year ago in April. Very very hard and sad however 100% necessary for healing to happen. ❤ to all in the beginning of realization. You are NOT alone.
Good for you....may you find healing 🙏❤
100% So many people are identifying their mothers as narcs! One of the most difficult and most painful things in life to have a narc mother. Slowly move toward love and away from narkism.
We are not alone. Mother Dearest gets to speak to me about once a month. She babbles all about her fabulous self and I grunt occasionally. I was midway through life before I finally grasped that she was a sharp lump of ice that will never melt. The damage done in those formative years, however, cannot be ignored and educating ourselves is our best weapon.
@@wayneelliott1180 Spot on Wayne ! Good illustration. Women have kids to boost their ego, to have someone to control or as an insurance policy but that never eventuates. Only very few actually love their kids and are prepared to meet their kids' needs.
I'm in the process of figuring out what is happening. I don't know yet if my mother is narcissistic or I am. I have low self esteem, diagnosed depression and emotional dysregulation. I can't accept compliments, poor boundaries but I've pushed people away and been very cruel when I fear abandonment. I can also be very controlling.
My mother had anger issues at home growing up and emotionally invalidated us, she was also very controlling. Yet to the outsider, I feel I am the narcissist as I've had anger outbursts and lost friends and treated people badly. She is reliable, helps others and only loses it at home. She never self sabotages whereas I do all the time. Do we both have tendencies?
So much this! My wife is a covert narcissist. It is very difficult being with her, and overall not healthy for me, but I can see that she isn't acting with malicious intent. She is a collection of very anti-social behavior patterns that were developed as a survival mechanism during an extremely unhealthy and traumatic upbringing.
A few days ago while she was recounting her experiences that day, I received a notification and checked my phone to learn that a former coworker who I had worked closely with for several years had passed away. I was emotionally floored; it took me out of the moment immediately. I told my wife that my former coworker had passed and that I was not okay with it and she promptly.... continued telling me about her day. I needed empathy or if not that just a little time not being chatted to, but she didn't pick up on it. It wasn't that she was malicious and "just didn't care"; it was more like she "just didn't realize that this was a situation where one should care". She is deeply broken, and my codependent self feels absolutely awful for her. She does many wicked, nasty things and is completely oblivious to the damage these things do. She doesn't give true empathy - she does some kind of performance art empathy that looks kind of like the real thing, but just doesn't *feel* like the real thing.
That's awful 😞. My mother is like that , I tried so hard to get through to her, I tried to ignore these things she does and says , I tried to convince her to go into therapy, I tried to hide my feelings, everything just to have her in my life some way . But nothing worked and it was such torture for me . Then I cut contact and over time started feeling much better, discovering myself again and actually enjoying my life .I realised that I can't help her no matter how bad I feel for her , I have to save myself, otherwise she will pull me under like a drowning person . Please consider leaving your wife , it's not your responsibility nor your fault she is like that
Yes! I totally agree with this video as well. I have been coming to the realization that my wife is a narcissist, but I feel more that it is a developed way for her to cope. She is also diagnosed with BPD, Anxiety, and possibly ADHD as well as having a difficult childhood. I believe that she is capable of recovering eventually, but she has been dragging me down for too long, and I have to leave. It is a possibility that she will never recover. I really think that is what most people mean by 'getaway' is you have to care for yourself by not being dragged down by this drowning person. It is human nature to try and help someone who is suffering, but we need to realize when that person needs more help than what we can offer.
all narcisist person will have a bad history to tell to excuse their behavior. Your wife know very well what she is doing.
@@theblackrainbow1 mother is the worst king of narcisist. The society protects them as saints. Mother narcisists are evil
This was very well written. I can 100% relate in my current relationship. I’ve been grappling with the concept of someone with an unintentional lack of empathy vs someone who outright does not care. Your comment is definitely challenging my perspective and bringing some comfort in an interesting way.
I got news that my grandfather will be passing away in a matter of weeks, and similar to your wife, my partner immediately continued venting about their day and completely disregarded the heaviness that I expressed to them.
This is very compassionate view. Thank you for sharing . Even though we need to be aware that some people cannot love, they deserve compassion. We all do . And with self compassion we can feel it for others without remaining an "en-abler".
👍
I am relieved to hear this explanation.
Dr Ramani’s videos, and those of others, have helped me. I’ve suffered quite a bit of abuse in my childhood, and I think it may have been narcissistic abuse. Throughout, I’ve felt the vulnerability and wounds of these people. That led me to be too understanding and forgiving. Videos and books like those of dr Ramani and others have finally helped me see that something is really going on, there’s a genuine disorder, it’s not going to change, and I have a right to move away from that.
On the other hand I’ve been quite confused, over the many years of reading about narcissism, about the attitude with which narcissists are treated. It’s an “us and them” thing. They’re portrayed as bad people with no redeeming qualities - and if you’re too nuanced in your viewpoints, you can easily get accused of being an enabler. I do see that that risk exists.
But in the people that abused me (including quite a bit of physical violence) I never saw the cold, calculating individuals that the books and experts spoke of. I know they exist. But they were not my family members. My family members lashed out sharply and damaged me quite severely, but not because they were evil geniuses. They are troubled.
The worst of them, it’s true, isn’t all THAT troubled. But even as a child I knew she wasn’t acting from strength, just from a kind of primitive, troubled feeling. I will never have contact with her again because she’s just too destructive, but I don’t see a demonic human being. I see tragedy. In her own upbringing, and just possibly some brain damage from a fall.
One huge danger from the antagonistic approach is that, in the worst cases, people are encouraged to lash back out at the narcissist. Just look at the countless posts on Quora about how to get back at the narcissist. These posts, with thousands of upvotes, are filled with people who are extremely resentful about what happened to them, feel that the other person was 100% to blame and should be punished. Well, what sort of person is especially attracted to such a worldview? Right, the narcissist. I am convinced that many people who comment on that sort of post and see themselves as victims of narcissistic abuse in their marriages were in fact themselves the narcissist. The anger and vindictiveness are frightening. I’m reminded of a documentary about a murderer who bonded with his latest victim over…their bad former marriages, and how he was allegedly treated badly by his ex-wife who even cheated on him. In reality, the ex wife had long been trying to get away from him and was seeing someone knew. He murdered her. Then he bonded with a new woman over both having been victimised by their exes. And then he murdered her, too. So yes, I get very uneasy when I see excessively vindictive victimhood. No disrespect meant to people who have been genuinely victimised and are understandably deeply angered. I hope I’m making myself clear.
I believe my sister is narcissistic, and after many decades of hurtful interaction I want to change our relationship or sever it. I’m not helped by people who underestimate narcissism and preach healing and forgiveness and so push me back into the damaging interaction. But I’m also not helped by people who paint a black and white picture in which my sister is some kind of demon - she is not, she’s someone who hurts very much, but doesn’t want to talk about it and has to elevate herself above her loved ones in order to feel good about herself. And I have often hurt her, if not in the same way. Confronted with the abusive actions I’ve been withdrawing, rigid. I didn’t know how else to deal with it.
She and I are not demon vs saint. We’re both deeply damaged from our childhood. She’s used me a lot to take out her anger on, and I need to get out of that. I don’t think it will ever change. But she’s not a cold hearted person who uses her empathy against others. Yes, she can spot the weaknesses in those around her with lightning speed, and will taunt you with them. But why? Because she’s got those weaknesses, too, but doesn’t want to see them.
In short - I don’t know how to move on from here, but demonisation isn’t going to help. And is reminiscent of how borderlines were demonised until recently - when now, they’re suddenly seen as a group that has a very good prognosis with treatment. Demonisation is no good. It’s what narcissists do.
Preach.
By the time I reached the end of my 23 year marriage to a man with NPD, I realized much the same facts as you have. Narcissists are drawn to people with the same type of abusive histories as they have. By the end one part of me felt sorry for him and recognized that he was a very broken individual. My personal unspoken name for him was « The hollow man ». But I never felt sorry enough to stick around and be mentally, emotionally and financially destroyed any more than he had already done. His actions were those of a sociopath, if not a psychopath.
@@healnpd Sorry - what do you mean by “preach”?
@@catherinewilson1079 Well, that’s especially dire, sociopathy or psychopathy. Hollow man, indeed…I’m glad you didn’t stay.
@@i.ehrenfest349 Thank you. It cost me more abusive acts and some PTSD but I got away.
I’m 67 year old and have wondered why I initially have good relationships with people. There is mutual liking of each other and then I do something to sabotage the relationship and end the relationship. As a result I now have very few relationships and am very lonely and feel bad about myself. Having surmised “people don’t like me.” Your video has shone a bright light into understanding myself. I have an avoidant fearful attachment style. Having had 2 narcissists for parents that might explain how I developed a less than ideal attachment style. It’s gratifying to finally have an understanding of my behavior that has baffled me all of my life. Both of my narc parents had a lot of friends. I am not narcissistic and I have avoided having relationships despite wanting people in my life.
Same😢
I literally just found your channel today and am working my way through your content. One thing I want to add about "intentional bad actors" is the sadism assumption in particular. To me it seems like that is an attribute that lives more into the ASPD part of the cluster. My father was incarcerated and diagnosed with ASPD and NPD. (3 different doctors, forensic psych said ASPD, the VA doc said NPD, the state hospital doc said both, long story....) Having been his child, his victim, survivor, witness in his trial, and cptsd patient trying to make sense of it all, I think I have a pretty good picture of now the subtle differences of the more antisocial attributes as opposed to boundary issues and shallow smarm I've encountered in other narcissistic, but not antisocial people I've met in life. I think the sadism quotient in an individual is really important to spot accurately and be well educated on, and both things are not widespread skills in society, unfortunately. People on the receiving end of all these offensive behaviors might attribute the cyclic nature of splitting as proof the person is enjoying themselves. Because people w/NPD can frankly just be scary because of the way they can turn on a dime and don't appear to be living in shared reality, those who have been mistreated inflate them into being more smart/powerful than they actually are. Many of my friends in the cptsd community see narcissistic manipulation as some kind of sophisticated 'puppet master' mentality or evil superpower, when it might actually be some of the most primitive, badly planned, and duct tape/band aid coping there is to engage in. But having been there myself, I think that is a very natural assumption after being exposed to a confusing, hurtful agressor who is capriciou, reckless, and just...weird. It took me a long time to see manipulation as just their go-to because it can get immediate results and restore control. My father's sadism vs his manipulative strategies are way different in appearance. He is, unfortunately, one of that small percentage of people Dr. Ramani's description applies to. I am not sure people are familiar with what someone with sadism as one of their primary motivations looks like. I'm not trying to belittle others' experiences. People w/NPD are capable of causing others excruciating pain and trauma that no one should ever have to endure. It's just that for many narcissists, the 'why' behind their behavior is way more about meeting the need of the moment, whatever that need is. Your suffering is just a necessary byproduct that is fairly easy for them to forget as their constantly auto-redacting personal narrative moves on. Yeah, they might feel "look at me, I won! I showed them who's smarter, better, the boss, etc, but again it's a byproduct, not the objective. An antisocial sadist (or at least the only one I know personally) digs your pain because the need of the moment is to feel something. That is what they came to you for. It makes them come alive and display a kind of affective change that is only attainable to them via controlling someone to an extreme degree and seeing how the person is desperate to escape.
So I'm very interested in watching more of your content to see if my armchair theories have any veracity. If you haven't done a deep dive on the twilight zone where ASPD and NPD run together, I encourage you to do so. Sorry for the essay, y'all, but the guy just died and I'm reacting by splattering my insights all over UA-cam. Indulge me, please. 🙏
This is brilliant. I think you are very much on to something here. I'll read your dissertation later in the week when I have time. My mother and brother are vulnerable narcissists and my father would be considered a malignant narcissist at best and very much a borderline sociopath, I would say, if tested. Religion kept that group together. If you think this sounds highly unlikely, just imagine every moment of every day being a screaming match that you could hear from about 6 houses away on our road. I stayed away as much as possible as a kid and moved out very young. My father really does not understand other people's emotions at all. He's trapped with a 3 year old's emotional intelligence but in a very powerful body. I really thought he was like an alien when I was young, I met nobody like him, nor saw them on TV. I'm very very far away from all of them now but I understand that they were all quite traumatised as children. Me too, thank god I had neighbours to hang out with.
Haha, I thought my father and sister where aliens too. I though they where as if the aliens had almost nailed a fake human, but not quite.
My older daughter is exactly the same and at 43 is worse than ever. She abuses us now that we are elderly and very sick. She asked us to move in with her to help us. Please don’t judge. You don’t know our circumstances. Instead she immediately started the covert malignant narcissistic psychopathic terror. Police and senior abuse organizations are involved but we don’t have the money to leave. In medical bankruptcy. I believe this was her plan from the beginning. I’m terrified and we are not going to make it if we can’t get out. The horror is worse than you can ever imagine. This really does happen.
Your perspective is so helpful. This description of narcissism from the individuals internal perspective is something we all can relate to in varying degrees. I bet the degree to which we relate is directly correlated to the amount of narcissistic traits we display. Rendering us all the same, just different levels/degrees of the same characteristics. That’s a much healthier perspective on narcissism than the one that is present in society today.
Looking at this in a new way helps me a lot. I’ve gone round and round on all of this. I feel I’m finally getting somewhere in understanding myself, others and how life operates.
Almost all of us are all wounded just in different ways.
We all have some sort of injury/lack to self that prevent us from growing up/fully developing/individuating/developing internal locus of control/agency. Those are the differences among us when you get down to it.
Thanks for your thoughtful comment.
But we don't go through life abusing others the way the NPD person does!
The only way to be safe is to get away completely.
I am REALLY glad that your channel is finally getting traction. Let's get that collab going and I'll make sure awareness about you skyrockets.
-J
Thank you so much. Both of my parents are Narcs. I think one has NPD b/c she is very grandiose and the other is Narc. entitled but very sensitive. I had to go no-contact during Covid b/c they are older now (80) and they are just awful/nasty/entitled people....STILL! I think my whole 50 years have been in therapy. LOL. These people are like 2 separate people inside... and I never knew what would show up? They both came to me with their sadness, anger and made me the parent (oldest girl). It was so confusing! They would never seek therapy b/c they said there was "nothing wrong!" with them....that it was all ME! I believed it. Sorry for the novel, just wanted to thank you for this video. Dr. Ramani helped me go no-contact finally! I am glad there are a lot of videos on this topic now. We need all the help we can get!! ha
I’m sorry you went through all that.😢
I have to deal with a narc recently. She seemed like two different people at times.
For whatever reason, I see and can agree with your videos. I think people have been hurt so bad by narcissist, that they can’t have any compassion nor understanding for the disorder. Thanks for sharing !
I've experienced what Dr. Romani stated concerning empathy with narcs I've also experienced those weaponizing empathy as well. I also experienced Narcs with empathy, not mirrored of myself. There's so much more to this topic based on the individual battling Narc syndrome within themselves.
What I've learned from almost two years of obsessive research on the topic, Narcissist's are inherently selfish and controlling. However, they think they are good people and want to be seen as a good person. In order to do that, some of them learn learn how to mimic empathy through others they respect. But, their true selfish nature comes out when they are exposed to sociopathic ideologies. A fantastic example is how Andrew Tate, an obvious Malignant Narcissist managed to convert many Covert and Communal narcissists into his way of thinking. Donald Trump also did the same thing years ago. So yeah, narcissists have no empathy. What you see is just a poor imitation. Or maybe the narc with empathy you're talking about is actually a BPD, OCPD or PPD. They all appear like narcissists but do have instinctive empathy. Oh and don't forget Narcissistic Psychopaths. They all have fake empathy but unlike narcissists, they fake it really well.
I have experienced cognitive empathy only and a very empty and barren souls...
I know with ME, my mother constantly weaponized empathy and love bombing, I didn't realize there even WERE authentic relationships. This was just how people were to me.
Just that most of them don't really "battle" it. Extremely few by all accounts. They are not known for self-improvement, after all.
Dr. Ramani is spot on with the weaponized empathy. I know because I'm moving away from a person who uses this tactic. I can only be myself and can't change who he wants me to be on his terms. I never hid my true self, he wanted me to be someone that I'm not or ever will be.
Very helpful. I have two relatives who are narcissists & they fit what you described quite well. They are most unpleasant to be around &/or relate to. Each has a lot of material things, yet each never seems to be truly happy.
Hello there! Wow I need to watch this video again… it was life changing! My hubby insists I’m a narc and when he calls me a narc, I just feel like a monster. (Ugh… narcissists… what a cringy thing to be… self absorbed, selfish A Hole. Ugh!) There are so many videos on UA-cam warning people about narcissistic abuse and run as fast as you can and it doesn’t help or motivate me to be better, it just makes me feel even lower. I’m on a journey to self awareness and I’m looking forward to seeing more videos. Thanks for not calling me a monster!
Thanks for watching and best of luck on your journey of self awareness.
Hi Melanie. Just so you are aware; a true narc specializes in projection, meaning that they project upon others the personality characteristics that they CANNOT acknowledge in themselves.
Whether both my parents were narcissists or not, based on their manifestations of abuse towards me in front of a therapist a few times, I can offer a few observations I've had from up front and personal narcissistic abuse lifelong. First, narcissists lie to themselves. They have to foundationally, because they truly feel inferior to others. This inferiority is variable, and social relationships are where they prop themselves up. Narcissists put on an act to avoid appearing vulnerable, as this is threatening to them. Narcissists are experts at framing things to be, or seem like they want them to be. At various times in my much younger life (before going no contact), I actually heard the reframing as the OPPOSITE of what actually happened, and with IMPORTANT details completely omitted. My mother negated my entire childhood after age 14 (considering all the travel and partying they did, it's not any surprise to me that I was never any kind of priority when it was essential that as a child I be one to them) when she ragefully, with demon-fire in her eyes accused me of "lying" when I innocently brought up my history, FACT of having worked summers as a kid. Not in her eyes! I was "lazy" after losing a job, and suddenly, everything I had ever done to prove I wasn't evaporated, just because she said so. She was a woman of extremes who only showed her full self carefully, selectively, guilefully, and dishonestly. Nothing was ever her fault, including her choice to spend her time the way she did when we were kids away from us, doing what she preferred. My parents could both be quite charming, but they were cognizant of who was around when, and for what. I thank God they weren't sadistic until I was older (yes, it got worse over time) and I got out, despite the games to suck me back into the vortex for use as an object of blame and distraction, and of course disappointment.
So long as they're lower on the spectrum (not sadistic, seeking to CAUSE others' suffering) narcissists aren't all bad, all the time. That's how they fool those who don't really know them, but think they do, because of their own projections and expectations. Imo, what makes this tricky is that everyone has a level of narcissism in them, which can fluctuate based on stress and other factors (even the healthiest people can have a bad day) and being around others causes their "accents" to rub off over time (narcissistic fleas).
Perhaps the deliberately socialized normalization of narcissism, concurrent with its stigmatization will push further research.
thank you! I went through the process of observing narcissism first in others then myself, and quickly realised it was nearly all unconscious, and innocent just as you say. A symptom of c-ptsd.
About at 6:25 minutes in you give the best explanation of why narcissists lack empathy. They certainly have empathy but their experience of it is superficial in that their own experience of their personal feelings of shame, guilt, etc is suppressed and replaced with that grandiose false self. Objectification of self… well explained.
Thanks
A very compassionate portrait as well as easy to understand. Some other posters do seem pejorative towards what we could call a disability. Thank you and please keep posting.
Thank you SO MUCH for adding the attachment style to this. I have been aware of some time of my attachment style (disorganized) and only recently aware of the NPD diagnoses however I was immediately aware of the connection between the two.
Brilliant, you described the people around me perfectly. Both in their childhood and how they are now. It's my first time on your channel it's great. I do watch other channels on the subject. It's myself and my brother that I am wanting to understand. I know that what happened to my brother was cruel. We are too soft as a result and don't defend ourselves. We put up with unhealthy relationships. I do not know if I should tell my bother what I have learnt and what I remember. I suspect that he may have his damaged inner child re-emerge as I have we are in our mid 60's. ❤️
I truly appreciated your very thoughtful explanations throughout this video but especially surrounding the attachment styles of those thought to be vulnerable narcissists. Your words removed much of the villainy associated with the three phases of a relationship with them (Idealization, Devaluation, and Discard) and other actions that cause emotional pain and turmoil.
As one who was not long ago discarded (and replaced), I appreciate the knowledge imparted by clinicians like you and Lise Leblanc. The knowledge imparted has helped me immensely during this very challenging time.
Could you help explain how the mirroring occurs during the “love bombing” phase in the same way you described how “love bombing” and discard occur in the vulnerable narcissist? Your description of the attachment styles and how those with specific attachment styles (anxiety and fearful avoidant) leads them to an internal conflict of wanting love and being terrified to actually have it which leads to the manifestation those phases of a relationship.
Once again thank you for your words. It has helped me feel more compassion for the person who has caused me so much pain. And I prefer compassion to hate. 🙏🏻
I appreciate this thought provoking perspective. There are many facets of this topic. I find 3 main facets to be...
A.) Neural: brain chemistry and cognitive function.
B.) Emotive: effects of trauma, abuse, and neglect upon personality formation.
C.) Spiritual/moral: the application of the concepts of good and evil to individual narcissistic afflictions.
......
I absolutely believe most narcissism is rooted in childhood abuse and neglect; mistreatment by source figures. However, many are abused and neglected throughout their formative years and manage to preserve their sense of care, empathy, and compassion for others throughout it and beyond. Suffering is an inescapable aspect of human experience and the way we choose to respond to it largely defines our personalities. I've been struggling all my life so far to understand this topic as someone who was born the single child of 2 separated narcissist parents. With exceptions that come with every rule, for me it still comes down to free will and personal responsibility. Narcissists avoid personal responsibility as they also avoid suffering. The truth is that suffering and personal responsibility are primary aspects of human experience. Narcissists dissociate from their experience of both, and so dissociate from true connection with themselves or others. The narcissists I have known have all been very dissociated people. They dissociate from personal responsibility and suffering to an extent that their behaviors constantly create more suffering for themselves and others, and more personal responsibility for that suffering in a horrifying exponential cycle. Narcissism is certainly a terrible affliction.
This is one of the best comments thus far. I strongly disagree with much of what Dr. E has presented here, and what he derives from the research he referenced. Not all adults who experienced the forms of abuse and neglect during childhood become pathologically narcissistic. Choice is still a factor. Narcissistic people ARE aware of what they do, but are not aware of WHY, or the emotional triggers and deficits that cause their impulsive behaviors. But they DO know that what they do is wrong. Most narcissists will not display their behaviors toward those they abuse while in public due to the shame of knowing that this is unacceptable behavior. Free will choice to avoid personal responsibility and accountability are absolutely factors here. Dr. E leaves this out and describes them as people who, because of their childhood, just can’t help themselves but to abuse others because the compulsion is as strong as that of a drowning person wanting nothing else but air, or starving person wanting nothing else by food. Absolutely an exaggerated analogy, as narcissistic people are perfectly capable of seeking help if they choose to.
The number of people with NPD creating social media channels and using these platforms has increased significantly (there are so many now!), which is a testament to the fact that they CAN choose to get help, usually after a rock bottom.
So no. Childhood factors alone cannot explain and justify their behaviors. There is also deliberation and choice involved. All it takes is having the actual experience with one or more of them to know that they do know, to a surprising degree, of what they are doing.
And no, they’re not “out to get us”, like Dr. E said, and Dr. Ramani had never said that. I’ve actually watched nearly every video she provides-not just one. Never had she said that narcissistic people are out to get others. They seek relationships like we all do, but choose to play around with empathy in ways that only benefit them and not the other person in the relationship.
@@olivegoddess1 Lifts my spirit that my words resonated with you. Sending out thoughts and feelings to strangers is a mysterious act. I appreciate what you have shared in reply and your words are wise. When I wrote of narcissists avoiding personal responsibility, I refrained from directly stating that I find this very video providing example. But I'll say it now in response to your reply. I think this is an important video still for myriad reasons. At base, it opens a dialogue in a safe space between those who suffer from narcissism and those who have suffered narcissistic abuse. It would be enlightening for certain to witness this man and Dr Ramani have an actual conversation on the topic. This external voicing of a narcissist"a internal narrative about their own dysfunctional behavior is important because it reveals what is usually quite hidden and guarded. To me, this demonstrates the fracture of the psyche caused by self-deception. I believe this guy has a part of his mind that is a persona he manufactured to avoid suffering and personal responsibility. He can be seen here believing what he says from within that persona and unconnected and unaware of the overarching part of his mind that knows the truth and knows better, because it manufactured the persona he's personifying. !
Edit: I also think this video is important because in studying the topic I have encountered much disconcerting villainization of those with NPD without much attempt to understand what it means for those who have such traits. This contributes to exacerbation of the condition in my opinion. Narcissism is characterized by dysfunctionally overwrought defense mechanisms to begin with and compensatory personifications to avoid underlying lack of self worth. This man is correct in my opinion to assert that the condition needs to be examined from his perspective with compassion rather than enmity. The fact that much of society, especially capitalism, actively encourages, rewards, and supports narcissistic mentality in many ways exacerbates the condition as well. It's important to identify and examine all the factors contributing to narcissistic character disturbance. Again, however, personal responsibility and accountability must be acknowledged in the face of it all- especially as a key to healing damages caused by the condition on both sides of the equation.
For part B...how about being spoiled... being treated like you are a king or queen.- very entitled... there's not always abuse.....or neglect or abandonment....
Otherwise I agree with your assessments!
@@olivegoddess1 Have you watched all of Dr Ettensohn's videos though? I'm thinking that the one in regard to Malignant Narcissism might be more helpful.
I've found that it's more complex than simply making a choice and a lot of highly narcissistic individuals DO make fun of, or abuse, others in public, which I've experienced and witnessed many times over the years. 🙁
@@lydiapetra1211 I want to inform you that spoiling or overindulging children is still abuse though. 🙁
This is very helpful to me, I think, because I've been struggling for a long time to come to terms with the one I work with quite closely. Generally I do try to withhold judgment, but it's been so hard, because sometimes I feel attacked, ignored, devalued, and used. But you gave me a little "compassion kit" and I do know a lot about this person's background, so it just gives me a separation between the behavior I experience, which is so frustrating, and the way I can identify or name or process the behavior. I will still put on my "boundary cloak" but I think I've been longing for more compassion towards this person (because it feels so much better for me), and just not having it bother me so much, and I'm looking forward to making this little advancement when I go back to work!
My personal experience with a narcissist and empathy was that they did have amazing empathy. It would surprise me how insightful they could be of the dynamics of a situation involving someone else. But most of the time they were too consumed with their own feelings to consider others. However they also lacked understanding of cause and effect. When a situation occurred which required self sacrifice, they would choose to satisfy themselves over the other. They failed to recognise the personal benefits of self sacrifice and seemed to choose the “quick win”. Their choice of immediate gratification led to bad consequences in most instances. Rarely would they learn from this as you might expect. It would take several poor outcomes for the same choice, before they would decide to change.
You speak well in a clinical setting, and may all be true. however, I have lived with a narcissist for over 20 years of my life, and I can say this is a distrustive ideology. The reasons in their childhood start out tragically, but the narcissist will use everything, empathy for their childhood pain, what others have done to them as an adult, to set you up for use and discard. This can be dangerous for those who do have empathy, despite their own childhoods, to suffer tremendous agony from the narcissists. They have high manipulative behavior that exploit the empathy of others. Unless someone has had a close, intimate relationship with narcissists, it is truly hard to understand. I watch podcasts and UA-cam videos on this subject frequently to understand and heal. I hope this helps you as well. I believe you were almost too sympathetic in your interpretation. I love John Bradshaw as an author on childhood trauma. You have some of his philosophy. I enjoyed some of your interpretations. The sad fact is that a harder edge should be used due to the damage they bring to others in their adulthood. The narcissist is clever and has a low empathy for the pain they cause others, leaving devastation and ruined lives that must be emphasized as well.
If I had a nickel for every time someone told me that I’m being too kind, too sympathetic, too empathetic, too compassionate, etc. for this disorder…and just how DANGEROUS that is - as though kindness and boundaries were somehow mutually exclusive. It is possible…in fact, preferable…to have very strong boundaries while being kind and compassionate. It is not necessary for us as a culture to throw someone, much less an entire group of people, into the garbage can in order to have functional boundaries. In fact, I would argue that the “othering this person or group is necessary for our psychological survival” stage is closer to the first step in healing and recovery. It is very far from the final step, which is recognizing the humanity in all involved even though you’ve decided not to tolerate any more mistreatment or abuse. Setting strong boundaries with kindness and restraint is the goal, not the problem.
@ellanola6284 - I’ve responded to this question many times throughout the comments of this and other videos.
This guy is on some groundbreaking shit in general. As Dr. Ettensohn stated, he has waitlists and there's forums full of ppl identifying with NPD helping each other out. Just in my experience, even therapists don't want to touch cluster B sometimes. People do want help tho. Maybe just like how we normalized therapy by talking about it in a non-stigmatizing way, maybe we can get more open convos going so ppl with NPD can get help sooner and then everyone wins. Keep it up, doc.
Will do.
Yes, everyone wins if more people get treated for it. More people get treated, if there's better awareness that treatment is possible for pwNPD, instead of friggen hundreds of channels of making them all out to be moustache twirling monsters that do it all on purpose because they feed off "empaths" like vampires. Sorry, getting a little spicy, because that crap just gets old. I used to go on those channels to tell my story and get validation. I was recoiling from the endless victim mentality soon enough though, and didn't want to stay stuck. Learned about trauma bonding, and that was freeing. Remembering these are still people w/ a serious and painful disorder was probably the last brick in my wall to freedom. Being locked in to bitterness and resentment, when we are told it's all on purpose is not at all freeing.
This is an excellent explanation! It seems that other narc vids seem to be lacking in where this one fills in the gaps! Thank you for making this vid!
Glad it was helpful!
Thank you for your insights. This resonates with my experience and the complexity of dynamic that occurs when these 'symptoms' meet different but similar imbalances in an overly empathic partner. Both have a diminished sense of self and are unable to meet each others needs.
I finally understand my ex better. We always ended up breaking up because he just wasn’t able to be very empathetic and then turned it all around to be about him. Just heartbreaking. I saw the human in him and only wish and pray for his healing.
"Objectification" of self and others... well explained and lots of food for thought. That this stats in childhood as a result of it being done to the child gives some empathy towards a narcissist.
Thank you so much for sharing such meaningful insight on this subject. I found this very helpful.
Thank you so much for sharing your excellent understanding with us! Incredible work! You've filled in SO many blanks.
Thank you. For explaining us better than we knew ourselves
I’m happy you are finding this stuff helpful.
I am really impressed by your presentation which host a real over view of a narcissist, however not impressed that you call out Dr Ramani as she has blessed so many with her knowledge and her experience with living around such people.
Yes , I agree with both of you about this area . I have experienced the treatment first hand for 34 years and as someone with a passion to understand this disorder as well as a victim that is totally scarred from what your discussing, I totally see both Drs as having validity in their studies. In areas they do totally lack ability to emphasise. However what come to my mind is their stonewalling attempts are a deliberate act of withholding some form of empathy. Narcissistic Personality individuals can be empathic in areas of their lives , however when it comes to areas where accountability & responsibilities is called there is no ability to be empathic in this area due to internal damage.
Your channel has been mentioned on an online community for pwNPD. I checked some of your videos and I'm really thankful for your attempts to make pwNPD more understood and less stigmatized. Your videos are helpful, informative and most importantly unbiased. Watching just few of your videos made me restore my belief that maybe I am not a monster. I really hope to see more content from you in the future.
Awesome, thank you!
My mother I have finally figured out is a narcissist and she has zero empathy. I had a very close personal friend (more than that actually) passed away unexpectedly. My sister that lives near me came to his celebration of life service with her husband. My other sister watched the service being live streamed on facebook. My mother never asked about his service at all. When my sister and her husband went to visit my mom a couple of weeks after the service, my mother never once asked about his service, never once asked about my friend and never once asked how I was doing. Yet she always likes to tell me "I love you with all of my heart". I received more empathy from my coworkers and my next door neighbor than my mother is capable of giving. The only love that I have ever felt from my mother is a very superficial love based on her being in control.
I have never heard your definition of lack of self-awareness. The pathological narcissist pretends not to have emotional needs. This is an eye-opener. Thank you.
Yes, and the pretending can be so convincing that it fools the narcissistic individual, themselves, into believing that they don’t have emotional needs.
@@healnpd wow, that is really indepth insight. TY for sharing more.
Thank you for the nuanced way of explaining from psychology, the structure of npd. I think, as so much, of what we think is a matter of perspective. In this vid the perpective is more of the psychological neutral outake on the person suffering from npd. Rightly so. Dr. Ramani is more on the perspective of the victim and validating the experience of the one abused. And the lack of empathy, projection and gaslighting etc is experienced as abuse. And it also needs validation. The perspective from the impared narcicist and its dysfunctiobal coping strategy is also true. The common demoitator is that 99% of humans long for safety, acknowledgement, being seen and experiencing worth and validation. Simply what we describe as love. Hence all you need is...And I also think that most is not intentional. But aligned with the drowning analogy. The ugly truth is, in my opinion, that in the relationships with people with npd both will drown. And that is both. The narcicist going on the the next supply is nothing more or less than clinging on to a liferaft. Npd is a spectrum. And I think that also taking in the account of the human with npd as in distress is of worth. But just don't forget to use the pole and secure your own safety first.
❤ Thank you ! Subscribed. I knew there had to be a way to reach them. Still not sure how ... but atleast with this info I can continue to try.
I appreciate your efforts at explaining this disorder. I fully accept Dr.Ramini explanation on this phenomenal dangerous force.
Love all of this. Your analogies and explanations are so helpful.
I do have a few questions:
You said, “In the drowning person scenario: Even the most admirable among us will clutch at someone attempting to save them from drowning in such a way that both lives are often lost.” Who is the lifesaver in this metaphor? And what do you suggest those of us who find ourselves in that position should do? In “real life,” how do we throw someone a lifesaver while also protecting ourselves?
Also, your video discusses the connection between vulnerable narcissists and the love-bombing/discard cycle. This cycle exists with grandiose narcissists as well, too, right? I would love to see a video about this idealization-devalue-discard cycle to better understand it. Dr. Stephen Johnson talks about it in “Humanizing the Narcissistic Style,” but I do not have a background in psychology and struggle to understand the connection (or lack thereof) to a caregiver in early childhood that leads to this need for perfection and absolute mirroring in others when children grow up. It seems many narcissists end up with empaths like myself who would give anything to show them the love and support they didn’t get as children, and yet nothing we do is ever enough.
Also, thank you for mentioning Dr. Ramani. I can’t even watch her videos anymore. They are too black and white and, you’re right, they do not address the suffering those with NPD go through. And for those of us who love narcissists, demonizing them isn’t helpful.
JC I'm glad you mentioned your issues with Dr Ramani and had to unsubscribe from her channel, along with another extremely popular one, because I was getting too angry while listening to them!
I found that it was causing more stress in my life, so decided to take their advice by going no contact. Lol. I don't think that it would've bothered them though.
I'm aware that she's a very intelligent person and has done an immense amount of work over the years; however, something isn't right at all and I'll leave the rest for now.
I want to add that I'm not able to respond to more of your comment because I'm extremely tired and can't even think properly at present. 😊
Thank you . I found this very insightful and deeper in evaluation of the narcissist.
Explaining the reason for discard is very helpful and feels correct concerning the narc I was involved with.
This is such an accurate description of avoidant attachment style. I've been completely surpressing my need for connection. I never understood why I can't make friends/relationships. People were always telling me I am "shy". I didn't know what they mean. I've thought by being quiet and not expressing any needs I am "earning sympathy". I didn't know any other way of being. When guys tried to approach me I didn't know how to respond. I was avoiding them and they were confused with my mixed signals.
None of the dating advice for women was helpful, it made me more socially anxious and avoidant of men.
I used to date guy who I believe is a vulnerable narcissist. Your videos make me more convinced of it bc of how accurately it describes him.
He used to say: "he's a monster" which didn't make sense bc he was so kind till he started raging when I said something resembling criticism. Our personalities and lifes were similar. My guts tell me his father was the cause of his narcissism. He was military and probably wanted his son to be tough like him when he wasn't. My mum was also unimpressed by me. I gave my best to not bother her with my existance and be the least burden.
Your perspective gives lot of insights.
Really appreciate your work here! Saying narcissists cause harm because they are evil is circular and explanatorily vacant - it treats them as objects (like they see others and themselves..) and totally bypasses the subject-hood that is essential to UNDERSTANDING why they tick as they do (like a bomb...)
Thanks for your feedback!
Thank you. I appreciate encountering an empathic explanation and understanding of narcissism instead of the prevalent demonization of this particular trauma reaction. I never really understood why we are able to empathize with c-PTSD, borderline personality disorder and other emotional manifestations of childhood trauma, but not with narcissistic personality disorder. It seems to me that people with narcissism might have even suffered more in their childhood than people with many other diagnoses.
I do not advice staying in a relationship with a narcissist and putting up with being objectified and with the lack of empathy, because you feel sorry for them, however, it is possible to hold care for their suffering while at the same time being fully aware that they are not capable of fulfilling your emotional needs and therefore instead to choose partners and friends who are able to do that.
Yes, I agree that culturally we should work to regard all forms of mental illness with compassion. Individuals can make their own choices when it comes to personal relationships.
From my experience with an ex narcissist boyfriend; I agree with every word in this video. Thank you for sharing your video it's educational and informative. ❤
EXACTLY my experience,perception of what was actually going on.and very well articulated by your person.your efforts a not in vein..Keep up the great content and i'm sure exhausting mind twisting research.
I appreciate the perspective you are bringing to this topic, Dr Ettensohn. Sometimes it seems that narcissism is a big business on UA-cam and that people are demonizing those with NPD. I too believe that the avoidant attachment style has something to do with it; definitely in the case with my girlfriend whom I suspect has NPD. I've also suspected her of having Borderline Personality Disorder and Psychopathy but I am not an expert; I just suffer from watching many videos trying to understand her irrational behavior.
I have found tremendous help in a lot of videos....lotsa insight.. info... great advice to help me heal and not to go back for more abuse....they helped me put the pieces together.....and save myself from more hell!!!
She probably doesn't have all those disorders. It's confusing at first though when we are taking in information. I suspected those things w/ my ex at first too. Pretty sure it's lower tier NPD now though, and this mainly through him admitting and sharing feelings he had. Things he kept admitting: entitlement, selfishness, shame that he felt but couldn't show, and ability to compartmentalize when cheating (though he used different wording). When I did the research, his words kept echoing back to me. He's my ex of 6 months. I let him know, but I doubt he'll get the help. He was hoping I told him so we could work on things, but that's a firm no from me. I have enough compassion back now to put myself on the line and very gently tell him, but enough self preservation not to put myself back in the blender.
There is a huge difference between cognitive and affective empathy. Isn't this understood by all professionals? This isn't something unique to Dr. Ramani. I'm very surprised there is no differentiation here.
The binaries here seem false. Narcissists are not all suffering due to being cut off from their emotions, which get projected onto others. Their behavior is not all intentional or self aware as bad actors; hence the lack of affective empathy. Many are thriving in our narcissistic culture.😮
I'm not sure I recognize the validity of cognitive empathy. I think empathy without an affective component isn't really empathy.
The extent to which someone with pathological narcissism or NPD is capable of empathizing depends on a range of factors that are intrapsychic, situational, and relational. The same person may be quite capable and willing to empathize in situations that where the stakes feel low, but have considerable difficulty seeing past their own sense of personal psychological threat when the stakes feel high. This might look like the ability to empathize casually with complete strangers at the supermarket, but impaired or absent empathy in very close relationships or in situations that otherwise threaten the individual’s fragile self. When the self feels under threat, any number of defenses may kick in that distort perception and exclude threatening affects. These may include projection (which would impair empathy), splitting (which polarizes perception and impairs empathy), intellectualization (which might result in something like 'cognitive empathy'), idealization/devaluation (which would either enhance or impair empathy), denial (which would make empathy impossible due to refusal to acknowledge the reality of a situation), or fragmentation of self (which makes empathy difficult or impossible due to the feeling of falling apart).
I also think that many with NPD will engage in problematic behaviors and attitudes in an attempt to defend themselves from perceived threats in their relationships. Such behaviors and attitudes might include adopting an air of grandiosity, superiority, or contempt, minimizing or denying affect in themselves or someone else, treating themselves or someone else like a specimen or curiosity, perceiving someone else as a sudden enemy, threat, or rival, devaluing someone who was formerly idealized, etc.
I guess all of this is to say that the issue is much more complicated than "cognitive empathy," which isn't really a term in the literature on narcissism. It's mostly used in videos and articles aimed at laypersons, and it creates a false simplicity where none actually exists.
A narcissist listens to their internal dialogue of toxicity, while at the same time NOT giving compassion, understanding, connection, and warmth.
And when they do give these qualities, it’s to manipulate, to get them back from a fallen state with the people in their lives.
The extreme devastation for me, is watching a family member in such a deep burn out and depression…
They have Noo empathy.. !
To me if they continue this “drowning “ they heading for Dementia… !
And they’re destroying my life too. They continue to refuse HELP! 😢
Dr. Ettensohn, this was a good video. If you ever run low on ideas for videos, I would like to learn more about vulnerable/covert narcissism and attachment styles. Also, I was wondering is there some kind of patholical problem with me where I suppose I treat people like objects, but am by default nice and respectful towards the people I interact with as if I had empathy? I can't tell what's wrong with me other than the theory that I put other's needs before my own to have moral superiority or to gain external validation? I have a therapist that refuses to acknowledge that I have NPD so I have no one to talk about this with.
Vulnerable NPD and attachment is a great idea. I will have to circle back to the second part of your comment when I have more time to respond.
You sound like a kind, self-aware person who chooses to be kind & do good but maybe is numb with emotions but does the right thing anyway or maybe I relate & am projecting. Speaking for myself sometimes I feel the same. For me, I have been drained, depressed, anxious, have rejection sensitivity, adhd, ruminating ocd and have brought up or learned boundaries & was/am too afraid to many times stop or take myself out of negative, unkind people. Also, since I don't want to disappoint people, I have really cut back socially, emotionally and in person with many people to cut down the critical or controls to immediate family. I have online groups and am trying to heal & grow myself and find safe people. So I relate a lot of this and feel guilty that I can't do more. I respect & and love until I heal myself but I would rather not get more negative judgment with "you should-ers" or critical people until I can heal more and I am trying to internalize their actions are about them. I was raised & believed if you are kind to others, they will be kind to you and like you. It never occurred to me others would feel good or power being critical, judgmental, or controlling. Boundaries, codependency, people pleasing and even my own challenges were not even in my conscious awareness until someone kindly brought it to my attention in my late 30s. Also I was consistently told whatever I thought was wrong, and have very poor intuition & had my mistakes told as funny stories at parties for my fathers entrainment up until I finally spoke up in my 40s. Having seared mistakes I made has created some very critical voices in me to where I don't know which is my intutiton and which is my almost false, critical self - 2nd guessing, so decision making, fear, guilty, shame, procrastinating have made even EMD hard
Yes. The above is a perfect description of my mother. She absolutely weaponizes empathy. It's her signature move. Oh, she suffers. She will totally warp reality to ENSURE she suffers. She is always the victim, even as those cast in the roles of persecutor are shocked to learn, in spite of love, good will, and having been trained to walk on eggshells, they have committed sins. And if she learns she can't pull this supply from one source, [because she has finally pushed them too far] she will cast about to find the most vulnerable in the family constellation and fix on them. The golden child is largely exempt, however. It's not intentional. But it is compulsive. The metaphor I have used is black hole. Endlessly voracious, completely indifferent. And Ramani has said that most narcissists are not consciously targeting their victims, any more than they would persecute a toaster who no longer provided them toast. They just move on to a new [better] toaster. I think you are cherry picking, perhaps.
@Taom9004 - The video is not mean to be a refutation of Dr. Ramani’s work in general. I simply disagree with some of the things she said in the referenced video.
I find it interesting, watching both of your channels, how different, yet amazingly diverse your content is. And wonderful watching you, educating yourself further from Colleagues.
What an incredibly kind human you are …. Thank you for sharing this perspective .. the world needs this perspective louder than ever all narcissists …❤
I am so thankful for this video and your candor.
I am also thankful for your continued focus on the pain that these people have endured which is actually the cause of their current behavior.
As an elementary school teacher of 33 years, wife and mother- I’ve often been told that I’m too nice thinking that these children or adults should be seen as former victims and this treated with kindness. You have shifted my thinking. Thank you
Al fin encuentro un análisis balanceado, neutral y humanizador sobre éste desorden tan malentendido y demonizado.
Gracias, estimado colega, por tan necesaria exposición de un tema humano tan esencial.
So glad you found it helpful. And I agree that it is essentially human. 😊
Hi, thank you for the video. I have watched Dr Ramani for years and I love her work. It would be wonderful if you both had a conversation/debate
Thank you for this! I am truly loving these videos!
Glad you like them!
Great presentation. Where does taking personal responsibility, for the pain and destruction the narcissist causes? It seems deep down they know how much pain they cause but don't care. Sometimes it seems they get a "high" from emotionally squashing a "loved" one. Isn't that the definition of evil?
Yes! Completely true! My ex said during the breakup conversation, in a moment of clarity, “ I’ve just realised how insensitive I’ve been about this!” She then doubled-down on the cruelty & disdain. It can & did completely cripple me as a human.
You are not describing a narcissistic, but a sadist or a psychopath. Have you even watched the video?
What you are describing is a textbook sociopath, and not a narcissist.
A sociopath with narcissistic traits is still a sociopath.
Having a grandiose way to present oneself has little to nothing to do with cruel behavior towards others, finding joy in the act of inflicting pain and having no remorse for their actions.
Narcissists feel shame about their behavior, sociopaths have no remorse.
I feel terrible for anyone who has experienced people like this in their life, but comments like this only makes the stigma around NPD worse.
It is evil.
It is on a spectrum.
Some act perfectly fine around certain people or hide it but around their targets they are sadistic to them and extract a high off of that. And they’re not going to give that up. Targets need to leave them.
Wavy,
That’s why I call them Narcissist/ psychopath
I painstakingly type the full two words out so that people know that I mean the evil cruel ones who derive sadistic pleasure and a sense of superiority.
Dr Ettenhson, I love that you addressed the damaging information Dr Ramani has spread. This is a very important video; and, your balanced and insightful takes makes me feel that there is still hope to de-stigmatize this condition which I was recently diagnosed with.
Please don’t stop. And I really hope we can link up for a collaboration soon. (I am Jared from our email correspondence). Please keep up your work!
Theres hope, Just because Ramani says something does NOT mean its true for everyone!
@@rayjay292 100% agreed!
@PutingPinoy yes, I have been meaning to reach out. I have been absolutely underwater with work the last few months. I will have a clearer schedule this summer.
@@healnpd sounds great, Doc! (Not the part about ya falling ill, though. Seriously you are one of the most important doctors in your field right now. You have given me and thousands of others the hope for compassion, patience and love. You are literally saving lives and mental health like mine.) I look forward to our meeting and collaborations!
I totally agree with your take on Dr. R's work. I like your perspective on this
We can’t see in others what we can’t see in ourselves - i think this disconnect from the self is so very real in NPD
i’m glad you brought up how the npd diagnostic criteria itself is stigmatizing. it always rubbed me the wrong way that most other disorders are defined by how the person with the disorder is feeling, but npd is described by how the person with the disorder is perceived by others. it definitely contributed to the hundreds of search results about “how to avoid a narcissist” that pop up BEFORE any actual resources for people with npd
edit: fixed some typos
Do narcissists actually have any idea of the soul-destroying consequences their actions have on others who genuinely love them? For example….is it fair & reasonable that a violent person who commits a heinous violation of someone to say “hey, how do you think I feel about what I’ve done to you?”! It’s all about accountability. If you’ve got none, then you’ll do it again & again.
@@assplundah i dont know how to explain to you that anyone is capable of abuse and anyone is capable of ignoring/escaping the consequences to their actions. gaslighting and manipulation are actions ANYONE can do. being an abuser isn’t unique to narcissism. it isn’t fair for *every* other mental illness to basically be described as the Victim Of Abuse disorder, and for npd/aspd to be the Abuser Disorders. and no, a stigmatizing diagnostic criteria ISNT a form of accountability. it will drive people away from seeking a diagnosis and abusers w npd will continue to do harm. we need to find rehabilitation, not ostracism and punishment.
I think the DSM has a lot of flaws. The system that's used in most of the rest of the world, the ICD, takes a very different approach. It's abolished all of the old personality disorders and instead records personality traits in a dimensional model. You get a diagnosis of "personality disorder" and then it records the all of the various traits you have shown that need treatment. It allows for a much more holistic approach, without the stigma. The DSM shoves things into fairly reductive boxes, which can cause a lot of problems.
@@th8257 agreed!
@@gloomvision I understand what you are trying to say about being a victim of abuse, HOWEVER I think that « fairness » becomes a non-issue when the degree of abuse they commit enters the realm of psychopathy and the complete destruction of another person’s life.
I appreciate your view, but I think it might fuel codependency. I was married to a narcissist and I had the same opinion as you do, and it kept me in if it's a cycle with him, and he consistently took advantage compassion and disease that he was broken and just needed healing. Also caused me to not hold him accountable because I considered him as emotionally and socially disabled, which eventually he learned how to capitalize on and use it to manipulate me at a higher level
My experience as well
I agree. This is a very dangerous approach and definitely codependent behaviour. Bad behaviour should never be rewarded or tolerated. Best to have nothing to do with them and heal from their intentional wounds.
You brought up some great points. Thank you.
Glad it was helpful. :)
Loved the co-relation with NPD and attachment style. This was truly helpful and valuable
Excellent Channel! One of the most compassionate and understanding views of NPD on UA-cam. It helps me better understand some of the narcissists in my life. I do have to ask though, is there a genetic component to NPD? In other words, is NPD always caused by some childhood event or could it be genetic?
Thanks for watching! Yes, as with most mental disorders there is a genetic component. It is not clear how genetics interacts with environment, but we do know that temperament predisposes some children to certain developmental trajectories, especially when combined with emotional trauma or neglect.
If there's a genetic component, that might explain my ex who has no obvious childhood trauma, and parents most would envy. If there's an innate hypersensitivity they are born w/, the triggers wouldn't have to be much though.
Useful video, thank you. I'd like to read your dissertation, but my university library doesn't have it. How can I access it?
Send me an email.
Your research and presentation are brilliant, thank you.
Dr. Romani comes from the point of a survivor of narcissistic abuse. Not the clinical definition or clinical diagnosticians that need to understand narcissism. Please don’t say she’s wrong. Dr. Rahmani is a goddess and she saved my life helping me understand the abuse I was suffering with my narc.
This is where the DSM falls short and the ICD system is significantly better. The DSM shoehorns personality traits into fairly arbitrary boxes, and can be reductive. The ICD offers a much holistic approach.
I have mixed feelings about this. On one hand, it's consoling to think that abusers are themselves miserable with their life, on the other, it seems to diminish personal responsibility and accountability, which plays right into the narc's playbook.
Not all narcissists are abusers. Not all abusers are narcissists.
@@healnpd Not all abusers are narcs, but I've never met a narcissist who wasn't an abuser.
Were these diagnosed narcissists, or did you diagnose them yourself? Diagnosing mental illness takes special training. I think many people have “diagnosed” those who have mistreated them as having NPD. You find what you’re looking for, and if your definition of NPD is abusive behavior then you are likely to find lots of abusive narcissists.
You're saying you take pleasure in other people's misery
@@michael35241 if they deserve it, yes, absolutely.
This is the BEST description I’ve ever heard.
I too, cannot get through listening to this Ramani lady. I had but to listen to one of your video's to know that you are a much better source for research on the subject. Thanks for all you input. It has been helpful to my gaining a better understanding of the subject.
Doc, it looks like this video grew pretty popular. You already knew this but as you can see by some of the comments, it feels like an uphill battle to educate folks on the nuance and complexity of the disorder that is narcissism. I just want to say, don’t be discouraged and please continue sharing your professional views, and also personal opinion on the subject!! There are many of us that are trying to get better, and your channel is one of the very few sources of real, humanizing information on NPD. Thank you again!
Thanks for your support and encouragement. It means a lot to me to know that people feel helped by these videos.
Hi Dr. Ettensohn, I want to express appreciation for the valuable content you share and the style you have that combines both depth and accessibility. Your insights have been instrumental in my learning journey. I've noticed that many discussions about Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD) portray it as a fixed condition, seemingly impervious to change due to a lack of self-awareness or motivation to alter established defensive behaviors. While it's widely acknowledged that early attachment experiences play a crucial role, I find myself grappling with the idea that individuals, even when educated and exposed to new information, might still struggle to break free from a defensive posture formed in their early years. How does the weight of early experiences persist throughout a person's entire life, especially when confronted with new evidence and knowledge?
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Thank you for being objective and not making anyone a villain. 🙌
♥️ Shared! 🎉
I think he might have picked up after your video on Dr. Ramen Noodles!! Perfect timing :) !
Thank you for bringing this to my attention. This is very interesting and relevant for my experience.
Thanks for sharing :)
Hope you have a great night, Sara. Thanks again. You are doing very good work. Proud of you!
I gained some insight from the reasoning you provided that people with NPD view themselves and others as objects. Can you explain why if they view themselves as objects do they actually require so much empathy and sympathy from their partners and others but they can't give empathy or sympathy? Do they think only some objects deserve empathy and others don't? Thanks for any clarification on this I appreciate it.
I agree with what you have said. I am happy to have found your videos.
This is the best explanation of an NPD. I get it now. I now can understand a person in my life.😮❤
You are fantastic! Thank you for showing the complexity and depth that this disorder deserves!
Thanks, and you're very welcome. :)
Very good video Dr Mark. I just want to emphasize on one thing. U r seeing npd from a detached way that's y u r able to get that deep into it which is necessary for ur growth and contribution to world. But I want to address the issue of partners of narcs who are not that much detached to see them objectively. A period of separation from their partner is a must to think clearly for both partners. Expecting to be compassionate while being with the narc partner is too much for them. May be they will be able to understand better when away for some time. Pls correct me if I am wrong. Need ur insights on this
None of my work is meant to suggest that individuals in abusive or unhappy relationships shouldn’t set boundaries. Sometimes, the best you can do for all involved is to leave. I had a teacher once who said, “Sometimes, the most compassionate thing you can do is say ‘no.’”
@Heal NPD Exactly. Due to our conditioning, most people feel that being compassionate means to stay with them no matter what but leaving them so that they can explore themselves can be the best solution sometimes. Thanks Dr Mark
This comment! Thank you
It's probably one the🙂 best descriptions of NPD I have viewed.
What am I struggles is that I have not been diagnosed with NPD, But I have been diagnosed with cluster B personality disorder. I generally find that I fit everything that is described in text or even in your videos, but there is one exception. I do think I feel things deeply and internally, but what I don't know is if my feelings are genuine or if I am impersonating feelings. I also think sometimes I'm feeling pain from the past but in my mind I'm manifesting it as the pain of my life. This pain often feels completely overwhelming to me. I certainly identified with the fearful attachment style. I deeply appreciate the fact that you consistently advocate for people with pathological narcissism or NPD. I agree that I feel like that drowning or starving person. I am not intentionally pulling someone down with me. I am not out there kicking and yelling in the ocean waiting for the lifeguard to come along so that I can kill him or her. I find myself in these situations or of course I am ruining relationships, but when I am doing the "love bombing" I think that I am showing love in a genuine way. I think I am pulling that person into me and creating intimacy when what I ultimately am doing and just avoiding drowning. And once I am safe I retreat back into myself just as you described. Anyway thank you again for this. I am new to your channel, but I know I will be exploring it intensely and with hope.
Its hard to know if one is gaslighting self and whether the particular feeling/scenario is genuine or not. You appear to have a good awareness of self; I believe that is a very positive step.
Great video!
Thanks for the visit