SOUTH BOUND SAUREZ - *DEMO /ANALYSIS*
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- Опубліковано 4 лют 2025
- There are differing opinions on how this beat was played and without video footage or a clear isolated track, its open to speculation. I decided to address some of the comments and do a little video on my interpretation of how the beat was played. I'm curious to hear what Bonhamites think.
My interpretation is that Bonham had occasional 1/16 note high hat sticking with every other note accented like on Musty Mountain Hop. Just my opinion. I've studied him in detail but am in no way an expert and I definitely don't play as well as you. Keep up the Channel work. Love it!
Ive always thought Bonzo overdubbed double chops on the hi-hat in this song. You can hear cymbal crashes while the double chops are going on in certain parts of the song. There are other songs from earlier albums where I believe I've heard Bonzo overdubbing hi-hat work. When the Levee Breaks comes to mind automatically. There's an extra hi-hat crack on the off beat that doesnt match the pattern. I think it's super cool and it's not caught by most ears bc it's on the off beat.
It's much Jonesy's piano chords on D'yer M'aker, which are on the up beat throughout the song, but most people I've pointed it out to, even seasoned Led Zeppelin fans and musicians - have never noticed it.
👍🏼
You're brilliant. Be proud!
I play 8th notes on the hats and fill in the the rest with ghosted notes. No 16ths on the hat. Always have. This is why I love your videos, George, you're just confirming what I already knew, and validating my ego :P
Same here - been playing it that way for years. Gives the same effect as the 16th notes with the same swinging vibe.
You're right, absolutely. Another point that supports your suggestion, is that the guitar rhythm has alot to do with the "feel" of this. It fills in the gaps where I can see where people might misinterpret the drum beat.
3:04 you struck sucha chord with me there, seriously, i find it so challenging and difficult to just play 2 and 4, no ghost notes, and always thought i should improve my ghost notes feel, like triplet ghost or shadow ghosts! Thanks for sharing keep it going please ❤️❤️❤️
Thanks Sir for the clear explanation, I think you are right, also when he crashes on the first beat and you still hear that overdubbed hi hat with the crash. I am transcribing that song for Drumeo. Thank you!
BABY! Oh when you WALK tha SWEET WALK!
Wow! This makes perfect sense as to what is happening in the song. Thanks so much for breaking it down for us George!
I think you're right about overdubbing because there are places in the song where the crash overlaps with the hihat. Can plainly be heard in the break around the 3:30 mark of the song. Also in the "makes me feel" spots, hihat and crash start together on the down beat. And just the way the hihat sounds, it seems very closely miked while the rest of the drum has a roomy feel. The hihats "role" seems to be more like a shaker/tambourine percussion thing.
We are Gruhak Yes, that is true....the hats continue through the crashes at times which is a the most obvious sign they're overdubbed. Good observation!
Man the sound of this set. I would pay some serious cash to have it tuned like this!
I just had a thought… What if John had 2 drum sticks in his right hand to get the double high hat hits. I’ve seen that technique before work
Your absolutely correct when you say he overdubbed the right left hi hat part. If you listen closely in the beginning both of drum parts sound disconnected for a millisecond. He definitely is adding ghost notes to the song too.
Yip, after listening to the tune over, and over, than playing it, I believe you're correct. For YEARS I've played 16th's, but after listening, I'm 90% certain he is playing 1/8ths with pleanty of ghosts to fill in the space. You description of "Lotta" was an excellent way to explain. I'm pretty obsessive with this stuff. I listened through R, and L, than each individually to see if Page, and co were using their studio magic. Yes, to a degree I believe there is something there in terms of overdubs, but great ear mah man
Man that example at 2:40 -2:47 Drums & Reverb Sound SO EPIC & PROFOUND! DUDE!!!!!!.....
Love how the Snare is miked.
I agree with your opinion, sounds exactly like that to me also. It used to drive me a bit crazy thinking about how clean JB got those fast one handed 16th notes :)
Hi George, I think your correct on all points. I remember when the album came out and I would have played open handed. But now I agree. Probably over dubbed with ghosting etc....
Hmmm! Interesting! I kind of agree with your way of thinking. It sounds to mechanical to play the 1/16 notes on the hat while playing the groove. I’d love to compare a studio and live iso track to hear the difference. It does seem like a separate hat track would be best and easiest in the studio. Live could certainly be performed several different ways. I tend to agree with your analysis. Thanks for your very cool break downs. Love the vids brother. Peace!
At the 2:40 mark of the actual recording, when bonzo goes into a fill, you'll hear a separate hi hat track playing 16th notes at the same time. Therefore, the 16th note hi hats ARE overdubbed. Point: Fludas.
Why, thank you kind sir!! 👍🏼😊
Recording engineer here.......I had to go and listen again, and sure enough, that's right. There's a few other spots in the song you can hear the same thing (0:31 for example, but nearly every one that's not involving a stop). Funny, all the times I've listened to the tune I've never even really noticed. Also, it's worth noting that Bonzo's hat is usually panned to the right, and in this case it's right in the middle with the snare drum.
Cool stuff....fun to realize something new about a song you've been listening to for 35 years!
I agree with your assessment,very difficult to get that fluid flow with one handed sixteenths or 2 hand,definitely because of all the ghosting going on. Thank you for the way you broke it down,never felt in the groove playing either way.
I think you are correct. I have always thought that was an overdub.
I noticed on a lot of Bonham studio recordings his hi hat or snare were recorded with delay making it sound like 16th notes, do you think this was the case on the hi hat??
Sounds killer every way you played it!
Sixteenth notes sound overdubbed. you can hear them still going when he is playing fills and the track that has the overdubbed 16ths is a noticeably slightly louder in the mix (at least in the 2012 remaster) than the track that has the eighth notes on the HH. Basically using a second HH track as some would have used maracas or something like that back then imho.
I believe you are correct in saying that Bonham overdubbed 16th over 8th. Besides the ghosting on the snare, it is easy to hear in some parts that every second note of 16th on the hi-hat (if it makes any sense) sounds almost like a ghosting. It could be partly because, as you've said, he's swinging it a bit and possible because every first note of the 16th "overlaps" the 8th note that he played when recording the main beat and because of that sounds louder.
Additionally, on the topic of overdubs, George, do you think the hi-hat "swishes" between the verses of Over the Hills and Far Away were overdubbed? These swishes are much shorter and nearly absent on the Guitar Mix Backing Track of the song that was released on the companion disk. Bonham also played them very differently live...
Thank you for your time and your excellent videos.
Yes, Over the Hills has an overdubbed hi hat part that wasn't used for the rough mix.
There's quite a few LZ songs that have overdubbed drums.
Thank you, Beatles Instrumentals and More. Other than South Bound, Over the Hills and Bonzo's Montreux, which are the other ones?
Actually, I could only find a few more. I don't know why I thought there were a lot. I think Custard Pie and possibly Ozone Baby also have hi hat overdubs. There could be more that I missed.
I actually just listened to that guitar backing track alternate mix of OTHAFA . I never heard it before because that's the only Zep reissue I didn't buy a few years ago. It sounds like he plays a very short hihat splash, which is much less audible. he obviously overdubbed the longer splash because it didn't stand out on the raw take. Ozone Baby has a very brief section which has to be overdubbed as you pointed out.
Thank you.
sounds great as a stand alone drum track, I never cared for this track (this, Hot Dog both get skipped) but I love hearing how Bonzo was still playing with such inspiration in this isolated demo. Amazing sounding kit as ever.
Yes, I feel the same way, also this is quite possibly Jimmy's worst recorded guitar solo. I have no idea why they chose this for the record!
hey, got alot out of both of the videos and i was also wondering about the hh sticking pattern but its so fast i think you nail it and furthermore prove a good point although the part can be played with alternating hands on the hh its better to play accented 16ths on one had, but its not accented, just for practice, that way it helps with the feel, love how youve shown how the snare / hh combo works, really great to see im gonna practice this groove later. cheers
I agree with the way you interpreted it with the overdubbed hats.
Bonham played the high hat the same way you did at the end around 8:05 he was just a monster on the drums
Thank you so much for the amazing informative videos! I'm curious to know what your preferred drum heads are for the 26x14 Ludwig bass drum? Also, will there be an extensive Bonham tuning video at some point?
I have the old vintage bass drum coated REMO head on the back ( maybe original) and the original smooth white LUDWIG logo head on the front. I will do a video talking about my gear and tuning soon. Thanks!
Thanks George! I'm a session/touring bassist and Bonzo was a huge influence. Years ago I acquired a mid 70's BB Ludwig kit in Bonham sizes, 3ply with granitone interiors. I have them taped/muted for the Fleetwood/Helm/Ringo sound at the moment. It might soon be time to leave them wide open to sing again. Your videos are the perfect companion with my morning espresso here in Toronto. Looking forward to more. Be well.
Dennis Mohammed thanks Dennis....yeah, open those babies up!! 😁
By the way - I love this song. It's super cool sounding !
I think he’s playing the whole hat part with his right hand - it is possible and makes all the parts make sense.
I still think it was most likely an overdub, mainly because I can hear the hihat often played on beat one when there is a cymbal crash, or when there are fills. I also feel like on the rough mix version, the hihat 16ths are not as prominent as the finished album version. He did hihat overdubs on Ozone Baby as well, from the same recording sessions, possibly on Darlene too.
I like the version what you think. 8th notes then he over dubbed the 16ths
But did he ever do it live?
No
I just had a thought… What if he used two sticks to get the double high hat hits. I’ve seen that technique work before
I swear it's what you are playing at 8:06, which you played wonderfully, by the way
There are a lot of songs where Bonham and Page played with delay, As with When the Levee Breaks. And like you said Bonham was a master at playing the spaces between the beat. If you apply delay to any beat played along with a metronome it can sound like two drummers sometimes. Just a thought.
I meant "not broken".....🙄
I get the same 16th feel with Custard Pie?
I play this song as you play it with the fast hi hat with one hand but is incredibly hard to play with the ghost notes on the snare xD from now i will play it as you say at the end its way easier and make sense
I can almost picture the session. Basic track is done. 8th notes on hat, typical Bonzo groove, sounds great. Someone in the room (I'd bet JPJ) says, "needs to swing a bit more, howze about adding a shaker on 16th notes?" Bonzo says, "eh, sod it, the drums are miked up, I'll just throw a high hat part on it! Leif [engineer]! Gimme a track!"
Just to support your argument for the swung L+R pattern on the hi-hat, notice that as you play it at the close of this video it is exactly the same rhythm & accents that he uses as the opening to "Night Flight".
Cheers.
Couldn’t agree with you more, great job man!
This is similar to In my time of dying, where he's playing over Page's slide solo. Sounds like straight 1/6th notes there as well.
I agree with you on bonham playing 8th notes in the original recording. There's a clip of Jason Bonham playing this during a soundcheck with his band and he's only playing 8th notes on the hi hat. I mean, hes pretty much as close as we're gonna get to asking the man himself. OR maybe they pulled a Heartbreaker and put a delay with the bass turned down (bcs on some delay pedals you can control the bass and treble) so he could get the 16th notes, which could also be a factor in why the hat sounds swung sometimes, where the delay could be set to have a little to much time before playing the duplicate sound
I want my bass drum to sound like that!! Very good!
I think he is using 2 hands, however, I'll also play the 16th with 1 hand. It allows for the ghost notes to be played easier, and the sticking for the fills (as you demonstrated) however, I'll do it as an exercise. Idk either, but he did use effects, as on When the Levee breaks. My best guess is 2 hands with the effects. Yes he did only use 3 mics for Levee, but he was using an old echo effect. Check out the guy who explains it, and duplicates it perfectly. If you don't know who I'm talking about I'll post the link
I am familiar with that video, and I knew that the Binson Echorec was used for Levee. I still think I hear too much ghosting for it all to be played with both hands on the hats. The debate continues!🙂
@@BONHAMOLOGY Did you ever see the vid when Plant plays on Bonhams kit? Geez, those are the greatest tuned drums I've ever heard! I'm super jealous of your kit. You have em tuned great, especially that bass drum. I don't want to get a reissued kit, and I won't buy a kit, or cymbal online. Even though I'm in the NY area, and spent a good part of my 20's at the LI Drum center, I've yet to play on one. Maybe they'll have one on "Music Row" in the city, but doubt they'll let people play on it? Well the snare is just unparalleled
The hi hat pattern is Ta ta Ta ta Ta ta Ta ta etc. and is played straight with e's and ah's unaccented. He is using the rock and roll technique where he's locking his hands together to play all the rhythm notes simultaneously whenever he can. I think listening to what he does on rock and roll may shed light on this. Rock and Roll is eighth notes, these are sixteenths but in both songs the hi hat is about the same relative speed. At the beginning of South bound, the clear sixteenths are very pronounced, further into the song it's less apparent, then at the end it's more pronounced again.
I agree the 16th high hat notes were added later. Perhaps a younger Bonham would have done this with a single hand?
What about one-hand 16th notes?
I’m the same way with natural ghosting. My friends will ask me where I’m placing the ghost notes and I won’t even notice I’m adding them.
How do you have your bass petal so where you can hit all those really fast double kicks or triplets on the bass petal cause it's a little hard to hit those with any bass petal???
Hi, nothing special about it...I have it set to a medium tension.
@@BONHAMOLOGY wow checked 3 years later appreciate you! Still watch you’re channel daily! Take care my friend thank you!
@@foghorn2true I ended up getting a speed king and they are fast as heck! You actually can adjust the tension on the speed king on the bottom of each pillar where the springs are you need a flat head 🤙🏼
After practicing a lot and getting better I realized that it’s all in the way you play it and the way you feel it. Adjusting does make a difference but it really takes time to find your technique and how you really wanna play your drums.
Another example of this sort of beat is when Alex Van Halen played “Dirty Movies” on the album, compared to what he did on the stage. They never played the song LIVE in 1981 for the “Fair Warning” tour, but when he played it when they reunited with Roth, he played the high hats with one hand and it didn’t sound nearly the same. He was playing it lazy handed. This makes me think that he overdubbed or sampled those high hats on the album. If guitar players can layer their guitars, why can’t drummers layer their drums, right ?
What are the pitches that you tune the snare drum to?
The way I've always played it, is that I've used the right-left, slightly swung sixteenth note pattern on the hi-hat, with "1 & a, a 3" bass drum pattern with the appropriate snare hits. I guess the slightly underproduced nature of ITTOD made it hard for me to hear the actual bass drum pattern. I wonder if Mr. Page turned up the bass drum track in the 2015 remaster of the album.
Totally agree.
Can you cover the danish tv version of how many more times
I'd love to hear you play Bonzo's Montreux!
10:12 to 10:22 is absolute bliss......
I think you’re totally right, I think Bonzo did overdub those high hats. He was heavy into the booze by 1978-79, so I really don’t thing he would have played those high hats with one hand and in 16th notes , to much work. Also, if you listen closely to the track, the high hats play when he’s hitting cymbals and you don’t hear a shift in effort = impossible.
do you have a favorite song to play and a favorite in general?
i think he just used 2 hands. i dont hear any ghosting and cant tell if the hats hit w the snare. is there an isolated?
Sticksbass No. No isolated track. Listen closely and you can hear the hihats through the snare hits and cymbal crashes at times.
hes playing 16ths with his right hand, its easy done you have to totally relax in your playing and be precise on your rim shots, its all about accuracy, literally letting sticks fall. tony williams said up strokes are more important than down strokes. excercise with just upstrokes
That snare!!!!! 😀
Please film overhead , that would be great 👍 oh and. Fantastic work
Is there any live footage on his sticking?
Do you mean on this song?
Your snare sounds killer. What is it?
Thanks. It's the classic Bonham snare. 1968 Vintage 6.5x14 Ludwig LM402 Supraphonic.
@@BONHAMOLOGY Thank you! It looks bigger than that to me. I've got a 6.5/14 black magic and it doesn't look as deep as yours. Maybe it's the chrome vs. the dark finishes. Never mind, it sounds ace, and you play it masterfully.
Wow george, you've illuminated the sonic Vallhalla of sir Bonzo yet again....steve gadd plays 16ths on the hihat 2 handed and double taps the left hand so the 16ths are continous; not broen....🙂
It’s definitely all played with the right hand and the hat you can hear in the fills and elsewhere is the foot playing the hat. It’s not an overdub. He overdubbed percussion but this beat is played - don’t t over think it.
I think it's pronounced swaray, as in the French soiree and erm...well it's a typically naughty Plant innuendo ;)
Anthony Peterson Aha, that makes sense. That Percy, and his word play! 😏
Yessir!
That would be "soirée" in French 😉
I always played the high hat same as the piano intro.....yeah WLL
I will say this, I am definitely know John Bonham but it is very difficult to maintain specific time relationships between the bass drum in this near drunk when playing on the 16th with one hand. I agree with you 100% in your analysis. In addition if you listen to transfer the 70 paying 60! And
I prefer you talking about the beat as you did here
moreso than just playing it. If it's an easy one like
Houses of the Holy or Dancing Days then there's
no explanation required, no demonstration either
really, although it's always fun to watch you play.
A soiree is an evening party. Suarez, con carne
and south bound seemingly indicate a Spanish
woman is the object of Plant's desire, but these
are the most pointlessly stupid lyrics Plant ever
put to a Zep song, especially when he's capable
of occasional poignant poetry. Jones has said
Plant would often come up with the worst lyrics
and the band would veto them. "Back to your
scratchpad, mate, those are bloody awful."
I intend to do more demo/breakdown vids , especially for songs as you said that aren't as patently obvious as to what the beat/fills are. The drum covers are really for fun, and also to demo how the song was played for anyone who is interested , at all levels. Sometimes what seems obvious to an experienced player may be very elusive to a more novice player. Yeah, Planty's lyrics run the gamut from fairly moving and philosophical to downright painful. Glad Jones and I'm assuming Bonzo kept him in line...somewhat!
He uses a single hand. There's no doubt. There are parts where you can hear that he misses the 16ths and does only 8ths. I would have never even thought of doing it with two hands.
I think he overdubbed. On the studio track sheet there is even a separate channel that says Hi Hat ...which you normally don't see, and isn't on other tracks.
Jimmy was overdub happy so i don't doupt they would have played with hi hat overdubs to add layers to the song
I think its the same like Royal Orleans, maybe.
Hats definitely swinging two handed I’d say you’re right, overdubbed
Your analysis is wrong. Overdub a hi-hat? lol. His groove was simply that mind-blowing. Just because YOU can't figure it out doesn't mean that it can't be played correctly.
Two hands sixteenth
I have to close my eyes and concentrate. I think he overdubbed because, !.?... of that pause that's not there
Stupid Siri... if you listen to tracks where was playing 16th notes with one hand only, his natural veal doesn’t sound like that
Jacob Kuntz 😂
I really respect your playing, George, but I really think he (Bonzo) is playing 16th notes on the hi hat. I’ve listened to this song countless times over 30+ years and think it just goes to show the talent of Bonham... my opinion.
A big part of me thinks that he was NOT doing left right 16th's and the way you mentioned later (with the ghosts) in the video was the right way, or at least more correct. A small part of me thinks that since he was doing left right 16th's on Carouselambra and again in Ozone Baby (both recorded in the same sessions), he might have been in a strange "16th note" phase of his career. These are the things I think about haha
Yeah, only other tune that I can remember Bonham doing a lot of sixteenth notes in is Beware My Love with Wings.
Simon Perry I really wish that song received more acknowledgement.
Yes, and he also plays them on Hots On For Nowhere. He would also often play them on the extended keyboard/guitar solo on No Quarter.
Yeah, I'm hoping that one day George might do Beware my Love after he's done all the Zep album tracks. I actually had a debate with someone about Bonzo's drumming on it, because I thought the bass drum was a bit too syncopated and busy in the verses. It was just a demo so he may well have changed it for the final version. But hey, who am I to critique the mighty Bonham!
Um, its not Suarez, it Saurez. Sorry, its the Spaniard in me.
I think you are dead on.
Its The Purdie Shuffle
This should have been played instead of Hot Dog on the 1980 TOE. Always hated Hot Dog - a piece of pastiche fluff.
My hunch is that Plant insisted on it being in the set to lighten the mood.
A Zep concert should feel like a 747 in a giant tailspin, hurtling towards the ground. Not like dispensible fast food.
Probs over dub, wouldnt put it past em tho
Very similar bass drum beat as the immigrant song,,,,