Mystery Shotgun With a Very Unusual Action
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- Опубліковано 19 гру 2021
- / forgottenweapons
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This is a commercial pump-action shotgun manufactured in France and proofed at the St Etienne proof house. I know basically nothing else of its provenance, including who designed it, who sold it (although I would assume Manufrance...) or when it was in production (assuming it did get into serial production). What I do know is that it has a quite unusual and very interesting operating mechanism, and I wanted to take my limited access with it to at least show you that!
Thanks to Ader of Paris for the chance to film this very cool piece of firearms history.
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“I don’t usually do this, but since this is an obscure French gun, I will make an exception”
Αh...yes!
....the chosen one, no one knows where it came from,
lord presents it and warm welcomes it....
Obscure and weird French gun, it needs the full trinity to count for the exception.
Red Power Ranger!
Dab!
I bet Ian says that to all the obscure French guns
Rofl. True. Very true.
I saw the way that the bolt worked and I immediately went "Oh!"
That is really quite a clever system.
It's pretty interesting but also not practical at all, especially compared to modern pump-actions. For this model, as you cock the bolt back and then push it forward to reload the chamber, it requires you to reposition your right hand. This can be awkward for aiming. But wait, it gets worse. As you push it forward and lock it back in to battery again, there's a chance that your finger may accidentally bump the trigger while doing so, causing an accidental discharge. In the heat of the moment, this may be more likely than you think. The only solution to this is to remove your index finger from the trigger loop, which is even more awkward.
@@arnox4554 And perhaps the most dangerous situation is if you decide not to shoot and you still have to pull the trigger to unload the gun.
Very "clever " 😜
@@oscarjosefsson9300 Where the safety comes in .
@@richardsolberg4047 Oh yes!
That thing also gave me basically zero confidence! 😜
Ah I am not the only one good to know lol
I like the idea of the weight of the shells being back in the stock as opposed to under the barrel. I’m curious how well balanced it would be fully loaded compared to modern tube mag shotguns which are front heavy.
It would be very balanced. Check out the Italian Cosmi shotgun.
This isnt uncommon... I can think of quite a few rifles from the 60s and 70s that had stock based tube magazines.
@@roadsweeper1 Seems that it was also quite common in the mid-late 1800s as well.
Absolutely
@@joshkamp7499 problem is these systems tended not to work all that well, and paradoxically had too much capacity so it was near impossible to reload it expediently
I was so perplexed by your statement of it being a 'pump'. I thought to myself "Is this a single shot with a pump mechanism?" Then I saw the tube in the stock and the action! Incredible!
17.0mm is a metric designation for 16ga.
Wow! An actual forgotten weapon! When's the last time he did that? Not that I'm complaining; he could do a show on any gun as far as I'm concerned. "Ian McCollum has forgotten more weapons than you'll ever know."
I highly doubt that shotgun was anyone’s “weapon”, they probably had a revolver or 1903 or something for his defensive needs
@@308dad8 I suggest you look up the definition of weapon.
@@sambolino44 I suggest you do. A weapon is any item used to hurt someone. This is a shotgun, not likely ever used to hurt anyone.
@@308dad8 You can hurt someone with a shotgun.
@@jd_the_cat You can hurt somebody with a hammer too. What’s your point? You gonna get a CCW to carry a hammer around with you?
Even when “Gun Jesus” doesn’t know anything about the maker/when/why, he still manages to make Avery informative and entertaining videos! Keep up the amazing work, Ian!!
If gun Jesus dont know the maker, then it mean the gun just materialize from thin air.
Probably in europe between 1850 and 1920.
If I was a betting person I'd say 1915-1929 it has a very ww1 attempt to improve the pump shotgun feel. But given the fact it has a civilian style strap it most likely is post war in my unprofessional opinion.
Immaculate conception gun jesus style. Tis the season.
This was Avery fun comment :)
thats Avery gay self-reference bro
whilst this is incredibly weird, I would love to see some gunsmith take this basic premise and make one that works, solely because it's so unique I want to see someone actually shoot one.
maybe they never made it work that well and thus forgot about it.
Yeah, honestly I could easily see this, perhaps in not our world, but some alternate one, tweaked to be a very efficient and compact combat purpose shotgun.
Perhaps magazine is gravity fed by pointing gun downwards and having rounds fall forward to position for pick up? Cycle pointing downwards to chamber next round; pointing upwards - to close gun empty?
Thank you for great and interesting videos. I love seeing the interesting mechanical workings and design decisions.
could very well be.
to me it would make more sense to have the magazine on the front end of the gun, if it indeed is gravity fed.
pointin the muzzle up for reloading is much more practical than pointing it down.
especially when this is a somewhat long shotgun for hunting. it'd be difficult to reload if you were crouching etc.
I was kinda thinking that too. Would certainly be a simpler design with no follower or spring
@@apple_with_a_human_butt Also there's a chance you could accidentally shoot yourself in the foot
Pointing it down would be safer to reload though, any accidental discharge is just going into the ground, rather than up into the air. Its standard 'good weapon handling' to always keep the muzzle under the horizon (and preferably at the ground somewhere in front of you) until your going to pull the trigger
This design looks like a visit to a hospital.pulling the trigger to do any thing other than fire it definitely a bit nerve racking 💀
This is THE weirdest action for a shotgun, or any gun for that matter, I've ever seen. Shame there isn't any information about the gun's inventor.
man invented a gun that cannot be unloaded with out holding the striker and pulling the trigger on a loaded chamber... Whats the potential for error there? imagine a pump where to free the slide you had to flip a lever and squeeze the trigger.
Cosmi armi.
you should see the weird over under he reviewed a few years ago. that one was also cool
@@musunator that side opening one?
@@pbgd3 there's also the breach loading one, the bullpup one etc. Who knows which one they meant
The magazine is a conveyor with two alternating rows of hooks or pawls. One stationary and one moving with the operating "pump" handle. The moving one is missing, probably it connected to the front end of the sideplate.
I still I don't understand how it would feed, as a shell has to arrive at the front to be chambered when you have pumped all the way back.
I wonder if there is enough room for the next shell to "live" below the bolt while it has a shot in battery. That way it would be sitting ready when the pump is drawn back, and as it's chambered the next one is pushed into the elevator
Similar but almost completely different from those penguins stair toys (just what my brain made the connection to)
@@juanordonezgalban2278 ratcheting hooks which drop below the cartridge rim when cycled, then move one way (forward).
@@TorquilBletchleySmythe but a shell would be pumped forward while the bolt is still opening, and I don't see whether it would fit that way.
I am glad it has some type of safety… My first thought when I saw how you open the action was “You need to pull the trigger to open the action, what could go wrong?”
Also to close the action you slam the trigger forward, at which point its ready to rock. So your choices are either to totally change your grip awkwardly after each shot, or keep your finger next to the trigger while shoving a round into the chamber. I kinda wonder if this idea never took off because it was just too sketchy, everything about it is kinda sketchy lol
I can imagine that any serious wear or damage to the locking system would cause the case to be blow-back ejected, pushing the whole of the trigger/bolt assembly, etc. with it. I think that would hurt.
Thank God Alec Baldwin didn't have access to one of these.
@@skeetsmcgrew3282 My thought was the same as some of some of the other commenters. That's probably the defining "feature" of this weapon. You can slam fire it, but it's guaranteed to be in battery, and the striker is what's doing the work. So, you also don't have to worry about not slamming it closed hard enough.
Also note that it "conveniently" un-safes itself in the course of re-closing the chamber.
I don't even own firearms, but I'm a regular viewer of this channel simply because it's so well researched and presented. Thanks for your efforts over the past year, Ian, and best wishes for the coming one. Kind regards from New Zealand.
same here man!
@@Sawer Likewise, you guys are cultured Kiwis! :)
@@Demour77 oh im actualy from the Netherlands xD
Same. From Canada. Didn’t think I would get hooked on this channel but here I am.
I'm always amazed that complex systems like this were created before the 870. Having owned one for many years now I have an extreme appreciation for its simplicity, it's like the Glock of shotguns, and every time I clean it I'm glad it's not a Rube Goldberg style action like this is.
The system is actually pretty neat
Makes you wonder if it would function better if there was a grip to push/pull on.
Alec Baldwin type of gun
You don’t need guns with your trusty crowbar.
In the context of the times that wouldn't be considered dangerous, just a bonus feature. Most pump shotguns back in the day were capable of "slam firing" if you held the trigger down while racking the next shell in.
my 870 does that......had Winchester 62 clone that would do the same.....lol i thought all pump-actions did it.
Yup.. riot style was good for the era... to be frank it would be ok today if people were more responsible...
@@janwitts2688 I thought it was common sense not to hold the trigger down while cycling the action unless you want to slam fire lol
Though, don't some manually operated rifles also slam fire? Because slam fire guns basically have full auto triggers which are more simple than semi-auto ones.
@@unhippy1 how does your 870 do that?
That's a super interesting design. Most pumps are super front heavy, and the left handed pump action can feel awkward at times. All the weight in the stock and the ability to recock the action without upsetting your grip would help a lot in some situations.
Just a few random thoughts: This shotgun strikes me as being post smokeless powder, but pre-WWII. Here's why- John Browning almost certainly filed patents on the pump-action shotgun as we know them today (namely the 1893 and 1897.) The 1897's saw service in France during WWI, where they made quite a name for themselves and would almost certainly be noticed. By 1898 design work had started on the Browning A5 and by 1902 it was in production. It was at this time, J.M.B. had a falling out with Winchester and began working with FN. It only stands to reason that he would be filing European patents on his ideas at this time, even if they never made it to fruition, including pump-action shotguns.
I am of this writing 72. My father's father, Jessie Daniel was sent to apprentice in NYC to learn smithing / firearms and return to Ireland. He ended up in Red Bay Ala. A long story in it's self. After his passing his six sons deeved-up his best pieces little was left for the grandsons. I received a 10 gauge shotgun very similar to this shotgun except for the gauge.The power in his shop was provided by a Ford model A. belted to numerous tools.
Is there any way you could get it to a historian or Ian himself so the whole world may see?
It’s a really cool marriage of pump action and lever action. I can see why someone of the day and age it was created felt that it was a good idea to build at least one but not absolutely mass produce.
This is a really cool design. Surprised nothing like this has been used elsewhere, except for the weirdness with the trigger, which could be designed out of the product.
Very interesting action, with the incredibly unsafe features of yesteryear. Cheers, Ian
To me it seems possible that there would be be a spring that you insert into the magazine after you've loaded it with shells.
As you can see (and pointed out by Ian) there's a couple of hooks at the end of the tube. It could be that there was a spring with a plate at the end of it, with two notches on the rim of the spring retaining plate or whatever. And when you push the spring in, you rotate the plate to lock it in.
kinda like the recoil spring on the KVKK lmg.
The Remington Nylon has the same type of magazine system you described
Your description reminds me of the follower spring on a Spencer. Drop the rounds into the magazine tube nose-first, then push the follower in after them.
or it's gravity fed and you tip it down to reload it... it's not always complicated.
@@kingjames4886 But that would be a really bad reloading system
It is truly amazing how innovative and clever early firearms manufacturers were.
I am guessing it was made between 1905 and 1914 because the Remington and Winchester shotguns came out, the French decided they needed their own; then, war were declared.
These gems are some of my favorites, no known provenance, only room to speculate where and whom created it, who know’s the story? Very interesting.
Thank you Ian for showing us a truly forgotten weapon just in time for the holiday. Merry Christmas!
I find it amazing that there are so many different ways to do the same operations and someone is always adding some way new. Thanks for this
I was digging around in the back of my cabinet of forgotten longguns the other day and came across a Stevens 124. Also an interesting setup, the only bolt action shotgun I've ever seen. It's like someone started making a semi and only got 1/2 way.
I'd love to see someone take on a modern version of this....the action is so unique
What's maddening is there was a lot of work done on the metal and wood finishing for a gun that appears to be a dead-end one-off example. What a shame. Beautiful work on it.
You being able to make an informative video about this unknown gun really shows your knowledge of firearms in general. Great video Ian, thanks for all of it! Hope the holiday season treats you well!
Tilting bolt, slide action (1894 Burgess for reference) and with a ratcheting magazine feed systen, this thing is awesome!
Indeed, it is very similar to this ua-cam.com/video/HXvmGtLYwKA/v-deo.html&ab_channel=ForgottenWeapons
It seems French shotguns are a lot like French automobiles: nobody else on the planet does it like the French. This can be both good and bad.
They get stuff that works well then put it in a different spot that no one else does
Naaa? only ends BAD! Gramps fought and flew for Every Allie! And "the french!" as an American boy, paid his own pilots lic, joined the RCAF, then RAF and the USAC for the Battle of Brittain the D Day! and the END!
You pull the trigger to access the guns internals, can't see any problems with that, especially with that janky safety. Hope that ones never used on a film set!
actually, that kind of twist safety was quite common on a LOT of rifles. Both the Nagant and the Enfield use a similar system, as did a lot of bolt action rifles post ww2. The notch needs to be made a tag bigger, but the overall theory behind it is sound.
@@roadsweeper1 I honestly think that no one uses the safety on Mosins. They are a bear to get engaged.
I studied Spanish literature in college. My favorite author is a guy named Horacio Quiroga. He wrote a short story about a kid who goes hunting in the jungle. The make of his gun is a St. Etienne. I truly would have forgotten if not for your excellent video! So cool to actually see one. Thank you!!
This goes along with the theme of the newest Grand Tour episode about how the French do things a little different, for better or for worse.
Man this is so cool. It's fascinating to see all the crazy designs that were flying around before things started to standardize on best practices
The only problem I'm seeing with this system is when you need to unload the thing with a live round. Because you can (and will) forget to engage the safety before you unload it. But I guess the project might have been abandoned because of those concerns
at 7:15 is shows that when you start to pull back the external slider it appears to pull back the striker as well. so in theory it shouldn't be able to fire out of battery.
@@justindunlap1235 yes but you pull the trigger to open it, and with a live round in the chamber that means it will shoot whatever its facing while you are trying to unload it
@@ParaFox404 9:08 they did take that into consideration though. i suppose they're really counting on the operator to remember to engage safety. not a gun person but i suppose engaging safety before unloading a gun would be the default procedure?
@@wytfish4855 Even when it is, you can't really rely on human intelligence.
@@wytfish4855 it is a gun that requires attention for sure and I think it would be fine if you practiced with it, the safety could be a little sturdier but it is a proven system on stuff like the mosin, the problem is just human error, like forgetting to put a seatbelt on, or take the handbrake up or other relatable things you would forget like uhhhhhhhh
anyways the trigger being shoot and also unload is a problem because of that, I guess video games also work like a console game has multiple things on the same button sometimes you do something you didn't mean to do while trying to do something else
if you get muscle memory confused or skip a step in your head, or just dont click the safety properly you pull the trigger to a loaded gun, inexperienced people might not even have it pointed in a safe direction either
Dont get me wrong I find this gun super cool and interesting but in terms of general safety if this was ever remade a seperate slide release would be way better, however this design is far simpler and probably cheaper to make anyways
Its just super neat
Oh yeah, trigger unlocks the action. This is genius. Nothing could possibly go wrong.
I don't really wanna say it, but... a rear locking shoulder dropping down or going up to complete the locking cycle always reminds me of John M. Browning
sns 🙃
Thanks Ian, and Happy Holidays everyone!
☺
Ian needs to bring a tackle box of snap caps/dummy rounds when recording these videos. Id really like to see how that magazine wouldve worked
I don't think that euro customs would know the difference and maybe even at the US because you're allowed to check guns as luggage but not ammunition
@@itsreallyjustmehere611 yes, but most commercial snap caps are red, clear, plastic
Is it possible the magazine works just by gravity? I mean the shells advance by pointing the gun down. Just saying. . .
Same thing I'm thinking, shoot, look at the bird that fell, keep gun vaguely down, pull the now a lever trigger guard back, wait for clack, push forward again.
@@GundamReviver Could also be recoil operated, when the gun kicks backwards, the shells are moving forward inside the mag and are cached by a hook in front of the mag.
From the looks of this thing, makes me think of what could happen if a Spencer, a Burgess and a single shot shotgun had an absinthe fueled fourgy with VD riddled Lebel
Mystery Shotgun I don't think I even blinked.
Cheer to your health from Canada that was great.
Huh, this seems like someone tried to make slamfire possible with the hand used to pull the trigger. Just keep sliding your hand along the stock to keep firing. Neat!
And "safe" too. That's what the crazy action is for. It will always fire, and won't fire out of battery.
Exactly what I was thinking, but if it is gravity fed like some are saying it might be, then that spoils the idea
The safety is reminiscent of the Schmidt-Rubin series, minus the ring.
Imagine what the speedloader for this thing would look like. You squat down, balance a bunch of shells on top of each other and slam the gun buttstock-first onto the ground, boom loaded and ready.
Never make your trigger do anything other than fire... Full stop, no other discussion needs to be had.
This system was designed by the Elbonian designer Luigi Grabmyass. He was given his walking papers for sabatoging troop confidence with this firearm.
Luigi Grabmyass was the son of the famed Elbonian inventor Marcel Shitsonfloor
Oh yes, Grabmyass, that guy. His grandson Invented the ejection seat for helicopters...
@@ducomaritiem7160 you mean the downward ejections seats commonly found in the Elbonian VTOL conversion of the P-51 Mustang?
And tested by Elbonian chief weapon tester, Bluey Zarsoff
I almost googled the name...
Very cool mechanism i wonder if it worked reliably, very cool though. Thanks Ian.
When he pulled the bolt back I literally mouthed "what the fuck"
This is the sort of "Forgotten Weapon" I subscribed to the Channel to see ! Thanks, Ian; and keep them coming !
P.S. a great candidate for one of Bruno's animations !
What a unique operational system it would be nice to see a fully functioning weapon but that's not likely
I want one just to give people at my local range conniptions when they tell me to lock my gun open at the end of a relay.
That is very interesting! Thanks for showing this Ian!
This magazine seems somewhat similar to the evan’s repeater with it being manually actuated
Look like a safety hazard considering the trigger double as mechanical dissassembly
Pffff the original SPAZ shotgun would sometimes fire when u put the saftey on. It's a feature
Don't you take away may freedomz!
Alec Baldwin would disagree.....
@@TheWolfsnack OH! Did his guns trigger double as a mechanical dissasembly?
I can easily see the breech being unlocked during firing by a vigorous pull of the trigger. Or a round going off while intending to open the breech.
I am really hoping Ian manages to lure a lot of knowledgable french guys out for a talk and information dump outside of the francophone bubble so we can all learn some of this wonderful French history that is otherwise stuck being only for the specially initiated. Luckily, lately the French are getting more willing to speak english an makes a lot of sense to do that to share the proud Franch past in optimum detail.
"Luckily, lately the French are getting more willing to speak english"... If you are really that interested, shouldn't you be the one learning their language rather than wait for them to learn yours, don't you think?
@@19Edurne Nope, that would be utterly insane since I'm Danish 🤪 only a radical fan of viking history might even consider that and if they did I'd suggest they go for Icelandic or Faroese in stead. I speak English because the world is larger in English, it's where we all meet regardless of national origin. The French are catching up to that fact, and we'll all benefit. I love the French and their culture as I do Tanzanians and the Greek, I'm not learning all of their languages in one lifetime, I'm not even going to bother trying.
Also, I've had several years of French in school, I've tried communicating with it in France, Morocco and Rwanda with *very* little success even though I'm not particularly bad at learning languages, so it is definitely not something the French can reasonable expect everyone to do before you ask about interesting stuff :)
But I'm sure Ian's efforts to learn French has helped and will help open doors...*especially* since he's American, he will be teased for his accent but also gain a ton of respect for trying. But he is having to single French out for preferential treatment to get it, he isn't likely to learn Danish, say.
@@19Edurne Did the Norman French take Anglo Saxon lessons ? If there is now a worldwide push to learn English,the use of French as the international European diplomatic language is of historical interest only.Don't get me wrong,learning another language is crucial to learning your own. I literally do not know how many functional languages there are worldwide.
Listening to the Hu band interests me in Mongolian. Not enough to learn the language, but perhaps a few words.
I am currently trying to learn Farsi. The effort reminds me of just how many hours it took for me to learn French. It is an enormous effort as an adult. Those who know state it takes about 10 years to be able to speak Latin well. I suspect that is probably true for any sophisticated comprehension of any language. How many people are willing to make 10 years effort to learn something they do not use very often ?
Like it or not,English,which is a maddening language, is now the international choice of communication.
You could learn to read the language in twelve months of study. There are many books published in French that don't get translated.
@@uncletiggermclaren7592 But most
*do* get translated, especially important works. And you can't read everything even if you wanted to. You may in fact be able to learn French to a level roughly equivalent to using Google translate in one year, but it'd be a lot of work and leaves out every other language, of which there are hundreds of relevant ones, and also AI translation is likely to improve faster than you can learn very soon. Or depending how you look at it, already is since it's learning every language at once.
So, to me learning a language is passé unless you live in the country for more thana few months or have that fanatical interest in something that motivates it - like Ian's obsession with French guns.
I can't help by draw simularities to the Slide action Rifles you showed off a few years ago.
That may be my new favorite loading mechanism yet
Please let us know what else you find out about this forgotten weapon! Merry Christmas Ian!
The boys from TopGear/GrandTour are goofing around with french cars this month and all trough the video I could always hear Ian saying "The french copy no one and no one copies the french!"
That's a brilliant system. Still gasping for air...
Thanks for going with the info you had, Ian. At least I know about this strange gun having existed.
Really cool operating system that you've not seen anywhere else.
Is it Temple OS?
i use arch btw
@@yobart t. luke smith
I've seen drawings of conveyor belt style magazines in buttstocks somewhere on the internet before. I wish I could remember where, because they might have been of this very gun.
C&Rsenal discussed them in relation to the development of the Mosin-Nagant, helpfully illustrated with a set of toy penguins. It's difficult to explain the role the penguins play in the explanation, but I swear it makes sense in context.
Pretty sure I’ve got a belt style conveyor in my buttocks.
Edit: OH.... Butt stock... right, my bad.
The evans carbine?
@@sawyere2496 no, that's a helical mag with a rotating follower.
Yet another unusual and cool forgotten weapon. Thanks.
I think this may be a Frankengun. Truely bizzare. I own a MANUFRANCE, St. Etienne, bolt action, single shot shotgun that is 32 gauge and the bolt assembly encapsulates the breech. I made some black powder, .490 round ball shells for it since I could not find information about the proof marks to determine if this turn of the century (1900) was proofed for modern smokeless. It shot the cartouches with no problems. The only reason I bought it was because it was such a petite beauty and the blued and case harded surfaces were pristine. So was the wood. It may have never been fired until I fired it. I cleaned it to black powder specifications and it became a safe Queen. I wish I knew more about this Garden Gun.
Please, take a look at the Cosmi shotgun system. It is unique.
hi, Ian !!!
Merry Christmas 🎍⛄✨ ...
on the rear of the tube magazine there was a little housing magazine spring with a coil spring and a follower ... they are loss, if you look closely to inner rear tube magazine there is a little latch teeth to retain them
so long, badass best gunner kid ... 😉🎍⛄✨
What an interesting mechanism. Thanks for sharing it.
Under the table there's a leash to not make Ian go nuts and find every single weapon that exists in Paris.
In terms of dating the rifle, couldn't we use things like the screws, sling swivels, rear site type and things of that nature to at least set a floor for this thing. There are many "modern" features on this that seems like it was built after 1900 to me. What's your thoughts on that?
Finding out more about the magazine feed would be interesting…
What an interesting operating system. The more I watch of Forgotten Weapons videos the more interest I have in gunsmithing and learning to machine parts. The history of firearms and seeing how they have evolved over the years and the many variations to the different types of guns is a world I would be honored to be a part of. Thank you for all you bring to UA-cam and the world, Forgotten Weapons.
A True Forgotten Weapon! I love these wonkey and ingenuous designs!
could it be a gravity fed magazine? as in you'd have to pont the barrel down to reload it ?
Its got some beautiful timber and bluing.
The action just giving a good ol yoink of the trigger and guard... yeah I really don't like that at all! Just one of those things which shouldn't be done in case you're having a bit of a dumb moment and as much as its theoretically safe enough if you're paying attention, there might be a time you're not.
Murphy's law, rephrased: Design to account for absent minded operators.
It would certainly be mechanically possible to add an additional lever to unlock the action without doing anything to the sear. That would mean you could fire the thing and cycle it normally, but if you wanted to cycle it without having to have it pointed downrange, you could do so.
Strange there isn't any information about this gun, it's really too good to be some backyard project.
@@hanelyp1 You can’t be absent minded around firearms.
Natural selection is king.
If you idiot-proof something, the world just invents a better idiot.
Any kind of firearm is a deadly threat to the user and everybody and everything around them if they're being absent-minded or not paying attention. When operating a firearm, you do not have the luxury of day dreaming or half assing it, it is a deadly weapon and your focus should be 110% on the firearm.
Very provocative and exactly why your work exists. Thanks for sharing to the community. Patron dollars at work here and great content
Brilliant design! Thanks for showing us
Novel and interesting, but for me, the necessity of pulling the trigger to cycle the action and clear the chamber makes it a training nightmare, because of the possibility that it would become a muscle memory which could pop up while operating other guns.
But then again, I'm not a fan of release triggers in shotguns, either.
Haven't we seen a mystery shotgun like this before?
There have been other mystery shotguns, yes.
Weather they were like this one, I am not quite certain.
It looks very similar to the Roper repeating shotgun.
Edit: it also looks simmilar to a Burgess folding shotgun.
@@thejayman1886 He mentioned the Burgess at the start of the video.
@@jic1 I know.
Thank you for all you do
This gun looks like a production of the Frères Clair (i.e. Clair brothers) Jean-Baptiste, Pierre-Raphaël and Benoit, located 2 rue Achille in Saint Etienne, France. A self loading shotgun "Eclair" with a similar magazine in the stock is in the collections of the Musée d'Art et d'Industrie de Saint Etienne.
The Clair brothers proposed as well a gas operated self loading pistol with again a tubular magazine in the handle in 1889-1893. This prototype in the only known self loading pistol using the 8mm cartridge model 1892. It failed to impress the french authorities...
This being said, there is no proof beyond the magazine type, the time period, and the Saint Etienne location that this gun is the work of the 3 Clair brothers.
You got me at "mysterious"
This is why I love this channel, a truly Forgotten Weapon
I love guns with unique and cool actions, it's so interesting to see how they work.
Very neat presentation! However, the basic concept of using a finger inside the trigger guard to cycle the action is just a BAD IDEA.
The exact reason I suspect this particular design didn't go far. Otherwise, in proper working order, it may be a very nice design.
It's a perfect type of gun for filming trigger happy Alec Baldwin's movies...
@@jrvgwagner I briefly considered a comment about Mr. Baldwin but decided it would be in bad taste. However, I recently watched The Hunt for Red October. The instant Scott Glen hands Baldwin a 1911, he promptly swept Glen’s abdomen with his finger on or very near the trigger. Maybe I was imagining it but it seemed like Glen flinched just a tiny bit.
This does indeed look interesting!
Gun Jesus, I have a prayer request and I think it may be important for historically recording information about surviving firearms examples from history: could you please interact with and learn how to use any sort of video-to-3d-model scanning software? There are examples such as 'Agisoft Metashape' that are the modern versions of software that have literally been used to 3d-print snap-on physical graffiti that grafted onto existing structures (there is a famous example you can find if you look up 'sandstone legos').
this kind of scanning could allow researchers to reconstruct full working replicas of mechanisms, so to the extent it's possible, basically capturing a few angles of all square surface area of all parts would make short work of this, and the content would probably be relatively interchangeable with the actual gun-on-the-black-tablecloth as per normal footage capture, so I think the work load would actually be reasonably light, once you know what you're doing?
KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK! hopefully someday soon I can send you a cool new gun design to try out, but I need to finish prototyping before that!
Ian mentioned in a video somewhere that he would like to do something like this (pretty sure it was a Q&A from a while ago in reference to taking high quality photographs) and I believe he said he couldn't due to the time constraints he has while filming. He typically films 5-6 videos in a single session over the course of about a day and having the time to take photographs of everything would ruin his scheduling process. I would personally love to see scans of the many firearms he has seen before but I don't believe that's going to be on the cards anytime soon.
I love it when Ian gets excited, you know it's going to be a funky gun!
You have to be appreciative of the fact that Ader has been along longer than many countries...
Saint-Etienne is a well known factory for weapons, they also created the FAMAS which actually is an acronym the "Fusil d'Assaut de la Manufacture d'Armes de Saint Etienne" or "Assault Rifle from the factory of St-Etienne"
The classic question, "Is it a bullpup?" Normally this would require the trigger be in front of the action but what about when the trigger is PART OF the action \o/ Very cool piece though, streamlined and sleek. I wish you were able to dismantle the magazine and get a glimpse into there.
Interesting firearm! Thanks, Ian!
That action sounds amazing. Lots of clacking, very satasfying.
Hey Ian, Thank you for the video, always very interesting to see those french design, especially as a french mechanical engineer myself.
By the way, I have been in a Museum in Catania, Sicily a couple of months ago and I saw a very weird Flintlock Revolver (yeah Revolver!) and I thought it was freaking interesting. I took a couple of pictures of the gun itself and of the article that was alongside it in the glass showcase but I can't give directly the link to my google drive (thanks youtube for deleting my first comment). do you have a mail or something where I could send them to you? I am sure you find those very intriguing.
He definitely has his contacts on his website
@@t.104 which website? because on the merch website, the only contact address is related to the merch shop and ordering and such.
@@tyrionas he says his website at the beginning of each video. It's in one word, forgottenweapons
@@t.104 there is only a physical address, but I can't send the pictures by physical mail, that would be silly
@@tyrionas UA-cam tries to delete it, but the email is admin @ and then the website address
This is a range master's worst nightmare, requiring the finger on the trigger for basic action of the gun
Yeah, it seems like it was one of those ideas that seemed bright in the moment but the maker realized later the problem... Perhaps that may have been what canned this "prototype" if it is one.
Definitely a unique shotgun design. I've never seen a shotgun with that kind of action. Cool video 👍
Never seen this weapon before, thank you for the knowledge
It must have been built by an experienced gunsmith or a really good toolmaker. It looks too much like a gun and is too well finished to be anyone else's early prototype. It is awfully simple. I wonder what else they made?
If it functioned reliably it would make an awfully nice upland bird gun. The way the safety works is not that different from a Winchester 1897. I would like a safety that didn't change state when working the action defaulting to off. Learning to use the trigger to unlock the gun might be dangerous when using other pump shotguns. I unload the chamber leaving slide back in the truck moving between hunting places. I like single-function triggers. It could use more gripping surface for the hand working the action.