Yeah, if the museum staff weren't watching him carefully the whole time, he'd walk out like a cartoon and empty out his pockets at home with the entire museum collection falling out
It is indeed a marvel. When we stripped one we had the user handbook open and, I kid you not, once you get to a certain point there is a page with a red stop sign that says go no further unless you're a trained armourer. You can see the page from the manual in our G11 dissaembly video. The Magot, however, is next level haha
Patent infringement cases today: *legalese, dry, boring, probably indicative results.* Patent infringement cases in the 1890's: "Not only are you wrong, but we built a bunch of weird-ass guns to prove just how wrong you are, sir."
I gotta say, it's not a very persuasive argument. Winchester had to make a significant and almost comical effort to find and secure examples of these early pump actions, and so the assumption is that Bannerman did the same to "steal" the idea. Meanwhile, Winchester...simply had to go and buy a Bannerman anywhere in the US. So Bannerman seems far less likely to have stolen from Europeans, while Winchester is almost certainly stealing from Bannerman.
@@DB-pr4rc It's not the assumption that Bannerman did the same research in Europe to "steal" the idea. Winchester never needed to prove anyone stole an idea knowingly: it's the fact that under US law you may not patent any idea or thing that is "Prior art". Bannerman had to prove beyond reasonable doubt that no other person had *ever* made a functional pump action shotgun in order to patent the idea of a pump-gun: any evidence Winchester provided to the contrary, no matter how comical, was proof of "prior art". It's not a game of "Who stole from who" it's a game of "If *anyone* in Europe, or anywhere else, ever pulled of a working design that's significantly similar, before Silvester Roper, then no one can patent the same "art" in the US, and so Bannerman can't have a monopoly, and it's open season for Winchester and *All* others to use this pre-existing design." Bannerman unwittingly paid another man for his patent for a thing that, legally, could not be patented because it was old tech. Winchester just needed to point this out. It's why Edison went very quiet about the rights to the patent for the lightbulb in the US: an Englishman called Joseph Swan pointed out that he had been making them first, but thought the idea too simple and obvious to bother patenting for several years until after Edison started making them, and he politely pointed out to Edison if he, Swan, ever told the US patent office this, Edison would lose his monopoly despite his patients. So, after some suing of each other Edison, bought him off to stay silent, the two merged their electric companies, and "EdiSwan Bulbs: lighting the empire *and* the republic" became a brand. Patent law in the Gilded Age is wild. The fact Ian has more than one video on "we made this weird gun to prove a point in court" is the gift that keeps on giving: look at this Maxim vs the Colt-Browing potato-digger lawsuit video. It's so neat.
@@DB-pr4rc Bannerman was *claiming that the patent covered the idea of using a pump action to cycle the bolt.* With patents, you need to cite the prior art, as a matter of "inspired by this and that, I had the following idea." The European patents showed that someone else had had the idea first. The Spencer/Bannerman patent didn't cite any of those European patents, so it was invalid on it's face.
@@sawyerawr5783 you know the Colt m1895 "potato digger" MG? Well, Maxim was trying to say that his patent for a gas operated machine gun included the gas port in the barrel and sued. So Colt made a version of the Potato Digger that ran off of muzzle blast, but otherwise used all the same working bits. Ian did a video on it. Edit: video for you. ua-cam.com/video/A85S8u7L4j8/v-deo.html
While you're at it, please collaborate with Winchester or Uberti to have a few thousand reproductions of the Magot rifle manufactured. I'll buy the first hundred or so.
One of the criteria for granting a patent is that someone with expertise in the field can take the patent application and produce a working example without further explanation. Clearly the Krutzsch patent was extremely well executed.
Bannerman’s ‘sue EVERYONE’ approach smells of an attempt at lawfare. If that was what he was indeed going for, it was a poor choice given the primary target.
@@Misericorde9 not an uncommon approach, back then. Ass-kickings like Bannerman received have taught later litigators (see you later, litigator..?) to be more selective.
@@lairdcummings9092 It's totally different now, the fashion is to abuse laws disney muscled into existence, buy rights to an old song you have no connection to, then sue every second songwriter you can find claiming that their three similar notes constitute breach of copyright. Oh wait...
I honestly would’ve paid to have been in the courtroom that day when Winchesters lawyers brought in those prototypes. The look on Bannerman’s face must’ve been priceless.
They were probably pretty surprises - but US trials generally don't allow for "surprise evidence" as far as I know, so they likely saw them for the first time before they actually reached the courtroom.
@@Khrrck 🧐. True but Bannerman wouldn’t have had an inclining of an idea what they were until the Winchester attorneys entered them as evidence and even then the full reason and explanation as to why they were evidence wouldn’t have come up until after the defense had begun their rebuttal.
When I was a kid there was a game that consisted of a spring-loaded frame compressing inward on a couple of dozen round pieces of different sizes (and shapes?). The challenge was to remove a piece at a time until it went sproing, compressing in and scattering the remaining pieces. Small kids loved the "destructiveness."
@@donjones4719 We had that game, and the idea IIRC was to put the pieces IN before it popped. And yes, all of the pieces had a unique shape. I'm thinking it was called "Concentration" -- I can see the thing in my mind, lots of yellow and orange plastic... I think my parents might still have it even (unless they cleared out the games & toys that the grandkids are too old for now).
My guess is, someone from the museum, or a previous owner, intentionally put it together that way to show off the internal parts. They have no intention of firing it, so they set it up as a display.
As someone who has gone through many crash-development programs, I have to wonder how much time Winchester's shop had to put this together. "Here you go, Bob, here is a sketchy patent in another language. We need your team to build a completely functional copy (or two/three) in X days. Oh, and make the slide handle pretty. I'm sure you didn't have any plans for the next Y weekends, right?"
I suppose it's possible that prettified piece could have been a prototype part for the 1897, or a custom one-off one of the workshop guys made for an 1893. Or else that's how the patent-holder drew it, and they were gonna follow that patent to the letter.
Well the wood part were probably done by a carpenter who would have had a bunch of time to screw about while the gunsmiths were performing an act of god getting the guns to work.
Or they just told the wood working guy "If we're going to work night and day until this weird clockwork pump rifle thingie works, then you're going to work night and day on the stock and pump handle. Fair is fair. We all get to go home at the same time" and he just sighed and went "so checkered, lacquered, horned, customized sweeps, finest knot free wood I can find in a week and what ever else I can come up with to keep myself occupied?"
The Krutzsch is absolutely awesome, thats a neat action that would be really cool to see in action, too bad we don't have any of those old winchester tool room guys to whip up another one
@@kenbrown2808 for real, if a gunsmith got his hands on it for a day i’d bet they’d have enough info to make a copy (of the second gun shown in the vid not the spaghetti one)
Actually, G11 is the Lorenzoni system from 17th century + caseless cartridge A. Nobel 1890 patent + automatics. Krutzsch: enter to the chat Kalashnikov: leave from the chat Adeptus Mechanicus: enter to the chat Church of the Broken God: enter to the chat Da'at yichud: enter to the chat
Interesting that Winchester was able to win by showing these existed in Europe. Wonder how successful someone would have been doing something similar for that patent for the bore-through cylinder since that design was already in use in Europe for pinfire cartridges.
It is telling Winchester couldn't find or buy an example of a functional gun. Probably because no one was dumb enough to actually try to make one... even a prototype.
Agreed. It seems a bit sketchy from a strict legal perspective. It does, however, uphold the grand old American tradition of Big Corporations abusing their gargantuan resources to stretch the spirit of the law right up to the breaking point. (See also: Microsoft.)
I would also like to research how foreign patents won Wnchester an infringement case in America. Pretty sure they're separate for a reason. Fishy......
looking at the divot on the dust cover, it seems as if the pump pushes the cartridge back onto the extractor on the cover, the extractor forces the cover up and shoves the shell out, and the mechanism on the trigger looks as if it interplays somehow with the magazine
update ; talked to a few friends, sent a few emails, and apparently the mechanism is overly complex, but the normal operation would be that the follower is removed from the magazine, the magazine is loaded with proprietary shells with a slot cut into side of the shell, when loaded, you then compress the follower and insert it behind the shells, closing the buttstock. from there, each trigger pull somehow presents a shell from the magazine, which is picked up by the rod attached to the pump handle, and it slides into battery. you then release the trigger, and pull it again, firing it and presenting another shell. the expansion of the brass is supposed to grip the rod tight enough to allow for extraction, and the spring on the dust cover is supposed to remove the shell from the rod and push it out the top, where it should fall harmlessly to the left or right. im getting this from a friend who collects old manuals and he supposedly talked to another collector of those same manuals. take all of this with a _huge_ grain of salt cause its third hand, but i felt it worth posting because it fits the mechanisms we were shown.
That lawsuit was fought in the 1890s, so we wouldn't have to fight it today. Personally, I think patent is a net loss in terms of innovation over time.
Ian is terrified to take apart a one of a kind piece of history; meanwhile I break into a cold sweat when fumbling around with ANY hammer or trigger assembly and praying to 3 or 4 deities simultaneously that a spring doesn’t go sailing across my office or garage 🤞🤞
You know you have worldwide street-cred. when you can go into one of the world’s best firearm museums, they pull a couple of ultra-rare, one-of-a-kind, obscure rifles off display, then tell ya, “Let us know when you’re done with them Ian” and you proceeded to film today’s presentation. Well done, Sir. Fascinating.
I wonder if the Winchester machinists looked at those two weapons and took a lesson or two away. Even a poor design is a result. Sometimes just seeing a different perspective on the same problem or system can spark innovation. I once had instructor turn on a light in my head with the quote “this is my way, what is your way? THE way does not exist.”
I've come across eureka moments for past unrelated projects while working out problems for the current project. There's always something to learn, just have to be flexible and abstract enough to be able to see that solution apply elsewhere.
Even that double-curved pump handle is more than I could ever come up with (let alone make). The mechanical skill and intelligence that went in to actually making these is on another level. Stunning stuff. And thank you, Ian, for bringing it to us!
Very interesting! I just spent the week figuring out why a Mosbergh 500 bolt was sticking closed, finally figured that out ,then just watched this video! Oh my word. I could fiddle with that action for months LOL. On a side note Bannermans island was on the East side of the Hudson river from Cornwall NY where I grew up. We could spend the whole day exploring the castle and grounds. Some areas were covered in old helmets 6' deep. Thousands of bayonets' and tons of military accoutrements. A few years later there was a fire that gutted the castle. My father gave me an old rifle from the basement of a house in Newburgh NY, also within sight of the island. A trapdoor rifle in 50/70. As new from when it was converted from the musket. I was in my teens by then and ordered brass from Dixie Gun Works. Had to sell it when I got married. My 1921 Thompson gun turned into a new refrigerator. I wish I was young again!!!!!!LOL
I had the pleasure of visiting the Cody Firearms museum last month. 1) My goodness was it neat and amazing. 2) The staff was awesome, interested in their exhibits and glad to share what they knew. And 3) Found myself wishing I had a portable Ian with so I could learn more and better appreciate what I was seeing. A good teacher makes anything interesting and you are a great one Ian!
Ian: "look at this gorgeous Viper STEN Conversion and the Prussian Bittner 1896!" The internet: "oh my gosh... The most steampunky guns eva! " Ian: ".. Wait for it..."
The ruins of Bannerman castle still sits on an island on the Hudson and can be seen by riders on the Metro North. Thanks Ian for filling in on the background of a ruin I have passed many times.
Extremely interesting hearing that first bit about Bannerman's Castle in the Hudson River! When I would go hiking in those mountains around the river I'd always see that island and building on there thinking it was super cool wondering about the history but never did much research into it. It surprised me to find out what it really was, and especially because this video was the reason I now know about it. I never would have expected that lol. Next time I go hiking and see that little island I'll now know the history about it and it'll make me think of this video.
I live very close to Cornwall and hike Storm King Mountain a fair amount. Love seeing the remains of the castle that wound up EXPLODING. So much history in the Hudson Valley, I love it.
I live right near bannermans castle, when I was little we used to go by it all the time when we would go boating in the Hudson with my grandparents. It’s funny I’ve never heard reference of it in anything aside from local knowledge and the normal tourist attraction
They built guns from patent drawings to prove a point? Amazing story. Imaging being given such a task. A patent drawing is so far from actual manufacturing plans. That prototyping shop must have had very skilled workers.
Imagine that bullet point on your resume. "Transformed a patent drawing into a functional firearm for a court case in X weeks." Interviewer: 🤯 you're hired!!!
I was a Machinist Mate, not a Gunners Mate... but that Krutzsch breech reminds me of what I saw of the 3' 50 Dual Purpose workings of the guns on my first ship.
I've seen LPL comment under at least one Forgotten Weapons video. It's not really surprising, as guns are intricate mechanisms, often designed with some interesting flaws and they usually contain great engineering. The overlap between Ian and LPL is pretty large, as is the overlap in audience :)
I first saw the Bannerman's Island Arsenal castle on Andrew Camarata's channel. He's run jet skis up the Hudson and flown a drone around it a few times.
"Story Time At The Cody Museum" should definitely become a themed event!! I would love that... Seriously though what interesting firearms and the backstory is fascinating! I would love to visit Cody and her wonderful Museum :-)
That 1885 Roper looks just so modern - at least at first sight. 08:00 - they went to that much work shaping the slide handle because they found it required so much force to feed a cartridge, would be my guess.
I've only heard a little about Francis X. Bannerman, but he seems to have been quite a character. He built his "Island Arsenal" because, for some reason, residents, businesses, and local government in Lower Manhattan objected to having tons of explosives stored in their vicinity. I have heard of a deal on which he presumably made a killing, via a Coast Artillery WWI unit history website. Circa 1905 the US Navy replaced 6-inch and other guns on a number of its older ships with newer models. Bannerman bought up a number of the guns at presumably scrap value. Fast forward to 1917. The US has entered World War I and has tasked the Coast Artillery Corps with operating most nondivisional heavy and railway artillery. Although most of the weapons used in France were obtained from the French and British other procurements were made. Numerous weapons were cannibalized from fixed coast defense installations and put on mobile mountings, and US production of French and British designs was implemented. And something like 30 ex-Navy 6-inch guns were purchased from Bannerman, presumably at a high profit for him. According to a recollection by a Coast Artillery officer, the Navy guns ranged from 30 to 50 calibers long, and were all cut down to 30 calibers in hopes of somewhat standardizing the ballistics. I have no information on whether these weapons were shipped to France, but it seems very doubtful. A sufficient number (around 72) of the Army 6-inch weapons removed from coast defense sites had been sent to France, equipping three regiments that never saw action due to not completing training before the Armistice (this was the case for about 12 of the 25 or so Coast Artillery regiments in France). So, it seems there would have been no need for the ex-Navy weapons, and Bannerman would be the only one to see a return on the deal.
That Magot is unusually gorgeous. From far away it looks like it has a fixed internal magazine that got rusted and busted, but the closer shots show it to be a work of art. I'd throw down good money even for a repro with a plugged barrel. I'm sure Ian can figure out those mechanisms given time for further review - the stock magazine especially makes sense just from looking at it.
This channel made me realise how mechanically fascinating guns actually are. Before that I just thought they're handy for self-defense and fun to shoot because they go BOOM.
I really want you to revisit that french one, when you can negotiate and prepare for a more thorough investigation. It's clear the slide has a v-shaped cam track that the side pins are meant to run in, but it never reached that far back. probably mis-assembled like the other was.
Winchester to tool shop: 'Build one of these.' Tool shop: 'Won't that cost about the same as the annual GDP of Canada?' Winchester: 'Don't worry about it, Bannerman will be paying.'
“If the museum staff weren’t watching” this is why Ian is the people’s historian.
that's why they're always watching.
Yeah, if the museum staff weren't watching him carefully the whole time, he'd walk out like a cartoon and empty out his pockets at home with the entire museum collection falling out
@@drunkenhobo64 They hire has an armed guard for French section when Ian visits
@@irvinmarsh4745 I had a series of strange mental images about what this hypothetical armed guard could be armed with.
@@randomnobodovsky3692 let's assume that whatever it is it has Rosalie on the muzzle.
Ian has trouble figuring out how it works, and this man has seen the inside of a G-11
Kraut space magic vs Cowboy dirt sorcery.
When Ian opened up the G11, I dropped an F-bomb.
When a Swiss watch maker gets hired at HK...
It is indeed a marvel. When we stripped one we had the user handbook open and, I kid you not, once you get to a certain point there is a page with a red stop sign that says go no further unless you're a trained armourer. You can see the page from the manual in our G11 dissaembly video. The Magot, however, is next level haha
@@TheRealColBosch thank you!! High praise indeed. A real honour to play with a real G11!
@@Kesssuli
Indian Peyote
Patent infringement cases today: *legalese, dry, boring, probably indicative results.*
Patent infringement cases in the 1890's: "Not only are you wrong, but we built a bunch of weird-ass guns to prove just how wrong you are, sir."
Certainly a different time
I gotta say, it's not a very persuasive argument. Winchester had to make a significant and almost comical effort to find and secure examples of these early pump actions, and so the assumption is that Bannerman did the same to "steal" the idea.
Meanwhile, Winchester...simply had to go and buy a Bannerman anywhere in the US.
So Bannerman seems far less likely to have stolen from Europeans, while Winchester is almost certainly stealing from Bannerman.
@@DB-pr4rc It's not the assumption that Bannerman did the same research in Europe to "steal" the idea. Winchester never needed to prove anyone stole an idea knowingly: it's the fact that under US law you may not patent any idea or thing that is "Prior art". Bannerman had to prove beyond reasonable doubt that no other person had *ever* made a functional pump action shotgun in order to patent the idea of a pump-gun: any evidence Winchester provided to the contrary, no matter how comical, was proof of "prior art". It's not a game of "Who stole from who" it's a game of "If *anyone* in Europe, or anywhere else, ever pulled of a working design that's significantly similar, before Silvester Roper, then no one can patent the same "art" in the US, and so Bannerman can't have a monopoly, and it's open season for Winchester and *All* others to use this pre-existing design." Bannerman unwittingly paid another man for his patent for a thing that, legally, could not be patented because it was old tech. Winchester just needed to point this out.
It's why Edison went very quiet about the rights to the patent for the lightbulb in the US: an Englishman called Joseph Swan pointed out that he had been making them first, but thought the idea too simple and obvious to bother patenting for several years until after Edison started making them, and he politely pointed out to Edison if he, Swan, ever told the US patent office this, Edison would lose his monopoly despite his patients. So, after some suing of each other Edison, bought him off to stay silent, the two merged their electric companies, and "EdiSwan Bulbs: lighting the empire *and* the republic" became a brand.
Patent law in the Gilded Age is wild. The fact Ian has more than one video on "we made this weird gun to prove a point in court" is the gift that keeps on giving: look at this Maxim vs the Colt-Browing potato-digger lawsuit video. It's so neat.
@@DB-pr4rc Bannerman was *claiming that the patent covered the idea of using a pump action to cycle the bolt.*
With patents, you need to cite the prior art, as a matter of "inspired by this and that, I had the following idea." The European patents showed that someone else had had the idea first.
The Spencer/Bannerman patent didn't cite any of those European patents, so it was invalid on it's face.
I like that, this man speaks of the truth.
These guns look like something you'd see special forces soldiers in any steampunk settings would use.
It would fit right in with the vinci faction in the old game rise of legends, yep!
Have you played Iron Harvest, and possibly played the US faction...
@@GundamReviver Rise of Legends! Absolutely underrated classic! Still have my copy perma installed lol
Facts
I already wish every day was story time at the Cody firearms museum
I do love story time with Iain
Us too friend
If Ian is in drag Nickelodeon will definitely make it a show🤡
Same lol
me too
Wild Wild West called, they want their props back...
Lol, yeah. These guns look like they'd come out of Loveless' armory or something.
Steampunk
LOL
And, because of the lawsuit, Winchester built a giant mechanical spider...
@@Arbiter099 and used it to burn down Bannerman's castle
"...And the museum staff weren't watching...", whispers Ian, in fear
Surely you jest. I mean, I think you do. Ian has fine museum rapport and more than enough old gun respect and concern of his own.
Where does he say that
It's a building full of guns in a state full of abandoned mines. I'd watch my step, too!
By "the staff" he means Ashley Heblinsky; I'd be afraid too...
@Ryan Powell dude...
Some guy at Winchester is spite engineering this to win an infringement battle
Did you see the Colt 1895 MG patent lawsuit gun Ian reviewed?
@@ScottKenny1978 excuse me WHAT
@@sawyerawr5783 you know the Colt m1895 "potato digger" MG?
Well, Maxim was trying to say that his patent for a gas operated machine gun included the gas port in the barrel and sued.
So Colt made a version of the Potato Digger that ran off of muzzle blast, but otherwise used all the same working bits. Ian did a video on it. Edit: video for you. ua-cam.com/video/A85S8u7L4j8/v-deo.html
I can imagine the guys tinkering, fueled by coffeine and pure hatred, muttering to themselves "Oh you think you invented that? The fuck you did!"
The toolrom machinists were like "just pay the God damn royalty"
Don't worry I'm working on the Magot at the moment, have just translated the original French patent. It is as complex as Ian suggests!
While you're at it, please collaborate with Winchester or Uberti to have a few thousand reproductions of the Magot rifle manufactured. I'll buy the first hundred or so.
if you need any help with translating french stuff I could try to take a look at it
Best of luck to ya! Hope you don't have to spend too much money for it.
@@vulkanlives9776 Not too much thankfully! It'll be worth it for the article and video - unlocking the Magot's secrets haha!
@@user-ii5im7zm2t haha I'd definitely be in line to buy a couple too
One of the criteria for granting a patent is that someone with expertise in the field can take the patent application and produce a working example without further explanation. Clearly the Krutzsch patent was extremely well executed.
While I agree that the patent was well executed, I imagine that Winchester had to give the tool room a case of booze for the headache...
The lesson here: do your due diligence.
Bannerman would have been far more successful in collaborating with Winchester, instead of tackling them.
Lawn Gnome
Bannerman’s ‘sue EVERYONE’ approach smells of an attempt at lawfare. If that was what he was indeed going for, it was a poor choice given the primary target.
@@gregdaweson4657 😁
@@Misericorde9 not an uncommon approach, back then. Ass-kickings like Bannerman received have taught later litigators (see you later, litigator..?) to be more selective.
@@lairdcummings9092 It's totally different now, the fashion is to abuse laws disney muscled into existence, buy rights to an old song you have no connection to, then sue every second songwriter you can find claiming that their three similar notes constitute breach of copyright.
Oh wait...
'until winchester introduces this guy' *laughs in john browning
HI middle name is Moses for a reason
“If the museum staff weren’t watching” that's why Ian seems more serious/professional here lol
I honestly would’ve paid to have been in the courtroom that day when Winchesters lawyers brought in those prototypes. The look on Bannerman’s face must’ve been priceless.
Just imagine the Attorney pumping away not breaking eye contact
With the stories we've heard of Bannerman, I would be surprised if he DIDN'T sell tickets.
@@AM-hf9kk Yeah, Bannerman probably found SOME way to turn this loss into a side-hustle.
They were probably pretty surprises - but US trials generally don't allow for "surprise evidence" as far as I know, so they likely saw them for the first time before they actually reached the courtroom.
@@Khrrck 🧐. True but Bannerman wouldn’t have had an inclining of an idea what they were until the Winchester attorneys entered them as evidence and even then the full reason and explanation as to why they were evidence wouldn’t have come up until after the defense had begun their rebuttal.
"Sproing into a thousand pieces". Merchandise needed.
When I was a kid there was a game that consisted of a spring-loaded frame compressing inward on a couple of dozen round pieces of different sizes (and shapes?). The challenge was to remove a piece at a time until it went sproing, compressing in and scattering the remaining pieces. Small kids loved the "destructiveness."
@@donjones4719 small kids? I want that NOW and I'm nearly 30!
Yep, I would totally buy that on a shirt!
@@sawyerawr5783 It's still on Amazon.
@@donjones4719 We had that game, and the idea IIRC was to put the pieces IN before it popped. And yes, all of the pieces had a unique shape. I'm thinking it was called "Concentration" -- I can see the thing in my mind, lots of yellow and orange plastic... I think my parents might still have it even (unless they cleared out the games & toys that the grandkids are too old for now).
Look like someone was one or two gear-teeth off when they put that Krutzsch rifle back together.
My guess is, someone from the museum, or a previous owner, intentionally put it together that way to show off the internal parts. They have no intention of firing it, so they set it up as a display.
Yeah I think they purposely did that so it wouldn't fire
When "I own a pump action shotgun" takes a whole new meaning...
As someone who has gone through many crash-development programs, I have to wonder how much time Winchester's shop had to put this together. "Here you go, Bob, here is a sketchy patent in another language. We need your team to build a completely functional copy (or two/three) in X days. Oh, and make the slide handle pretty. I'm sure you didn't have any plans for the next Y weekends, right?"
I suppose it's possible that prettified piece could have been a prototype part for the 1897, or a custom one-off one of the workshop guys made for an 1893. Or else that's how the patent-holder drew it, and they were gonna follow that patent to the letter.
Well the wood part were probably done by a carpenter who would have had a bunch of time to screw about while the gunsmiths were performing an act of god getting the guns to work.
When you get sued for patent infringement so you make a set of guns with ALL the patents.
I wouldn't be surprised if the ornate pump handle was just... One they had lying around.
Or they just told the wood working guy "If we're going to work night and day until this weird clockwork pump rifle thingie works, then you're going to work night and day on the stock and pump handle. Fair is fair. We all get to go home at the same time" and he just sighed and went "so checkered, lacquered, horned, customized sweeps, finest knot free wood I can find in a week and what ever else I can come up with to keep myself occupied?"
Probably they just had a craftsman who is enjoying the novelty of the project.
The Krutzsch is absolutely awesome, thats a neat action that would be really cool to see in action, too bad we don't have any of those old winchester tool room guys to whip up another one
@@kenbrown2808 for real, if a gunsmith got his hands on it for a day i’d bet they’d have enough info to make a copy (of the second gun shown in the vid not the spaghetti one)
Ah, that's what it looks like when your gun is inside out.
But the rifle is inside out...
And it exploded
Slowly trying to convince my group of friends to go to Yellowstone purely so I have an excuse to escape off to the Cody Firearm Museum
We all laughed when we saw the inside of the G11, how naïve we were ...
Actually, G11 is the Lorenzoni system from 17th century + caseless cartridge A. Nobel 1890 patent + automatics.
Krutzsch: enter to the chat
Kalashnikov: leave from the chat
Adeptus Mechanicus: enter to the chat
Church of the Broken God: enter to the chat
Da'at yichud: enter to the chat
Ian's got the gloves on. Story time!!!
Swiss firearms engineers: boy that's complicated. 🤣🤣🤣
It's so cool to see firearm history on display like this.
Interesting that Winchester was able to win by showing these existed in Europe. Wonder how successful someone would have been doing something similar for that patent for the bore-through cylinder since that design was already in use in Europe for pinfire cartridges.
Intresting thought.... And IF it WAS done, how would the weapon development been different.....Hmmmm, thought provoking.
It is telling Winchester couldn't find or buy an example of a functional gun. Probably because no one was dumb enough to actually try to make one... even a prototype.
@@mmercier0921 Ian said one of the paterns were in production in France. The one museum show next to those but he did not get it
Agreed. It seems a bit sketchy from a strict legal perspective. It does, however, uphold the grand old American tradition of Big Corporations abusing their gargantuan resources to stretch the spirit of the law right up to the breaking point. (See also: Microsoft.)
I would also like to research how foreign patents won Wnchester an infringement case in America. Pretty sure they're separate for a reason. Fishy......
"Maggot & Crutch". Why does this sound like a firearms company from a 90s Nickelodeon cartoon?
Looking at the first guntraption cycling, it looks like the extractor might also pull the new cartridge out of the magazine tube.
"Guntraption"
Brilliant.
looking at the divot on the dust cover, it seems as if the pump pushes the cartridge back onto the extractor on the cover, the extractor forces the cover up and shoves the shell out, and the mechanism on the trigger looks as if it interplays somehow with the magazine
update ; talked to a few friends, sent a few emails, and apparently the mechanism is overly complex, but the normal operation would be that the follower is removed from the magazine, the magazine is loaded with proprietary shells with a slot cut into side of the shell, when loaded, you then compress the follower and insert it behind the shells, closing the buttstock. from there, each trigger pull somehow presents a shell from the magazine, which is picked up by the rod attached to the pump handle, and it slides into battery. you then release the trigger, and pull it again, firing it and presenting another shell. the expansion of the brass is supposed to grip the rod tight enough to allow for extraction, and the spring on the dust cover is supposed to remove the shell from the rod and push it out the top, where it should fall harmlessly to the left or right. im getting this from a friend who collects old manuals and he supposedly talked to another collector of those same manuals. take all of this with a _huge_ grain of salt cause its third hand, but i felt it worth posting because it fits the mechanisms we were shown.
I am trying to imagine a pump action lawsuit, it looks like a violent event but also slightly erotic.
That lawsuit was fought in the 1890s, so we wouldn't have to fight it today. Personally, I think patent is a net loss in terms of innovation over time.
It's part 2 to the shotgun wedding. The final installment in the trilogy is the slam fire divorce.
Nobody is going to mention the movie "hobo with a shotgun"?
Laws should be clear, but men in black robes interpret them in 50 shades of grey.
@@legtendgav556 patents seem to put too much emphasis on who had an idea first and rather than who actually turns the idea into reality
When Ian starts a video with "Our story begins in 1882..." I am immediately hooked.
That foregrip is oddly prophetic... not far from some modern designs.
One is absolutely the grip from The Division that buffs reload speed and the other one is absolutely the Bruiser Grip from Cold War
I imagine these machnists had some interesting weeks figuring out these schematics to build prototypes lul
They did have that new fangled Coca Cola to power them through.
@@antoniobeltranthesumosnipe8634 Imagine if Mountain Dew would have been invited then theyd be up all night
@@omartorres5688 Heh... Coke then had actual cocaine in it.
@@antoniobeltranthesumosnipe8634 Oh yeah that is right
@@antoniobeltranthesumosnipe8634 not Cocaine in as much but coca extract. Far less refined, and you didnt get Rick James nose from it.
Ian is terrified to take apart a one of a kind piece of history; meanwhile I break into a cold sweat when fumbling around with ANY hammer or trigger assembly and praying to 3 or 4 deities simultaneously that a spring doesn’t go sailing across my office or garage 🤞🤞
That's why I do gun work in a small bathroom.
Ian, blink twice in the next video if they’re holding you hostage
Our Sponsor for today is the Law Firm of Dewey, Cheatem & Howe!
My all time favorite Law Firm.
My friend, it took a second before my brain clicked! :-D
You know you have worldwide street-cred. when you can go into one of the world’s best firearm museums, they pull a couple of ultra-rare, one-of-a-kind, obscure rifles off display, then tell ya, “Let us know when you’re done with them Ian” and you proceeded to film today’s presentation. Well done, Sir. Fascinating.
The Magot looks like a prop for some scifi steam punk movie.
So Francis Bannerman pulled a Metallica and went after everybody.
I wonder if the Winchester machinists looked at those two weapons and took a lesson or two away. Even a poor design is a result. Sometimes just seeing a different perspective on the same problem or system can spark innovation. I once had instructor turn on a light in my head with the quote “this is my way, what is your way? THE way does not exist.”
I've come across eureka moments for past unrelated projects while working out problems for the current project. There's always something to learn, just have to be flexible and abstract enough to be able to see that solution apply elsewhere.
Ian starts moving rifle parts around, museum staff: *heavy breathing*
At 6:39 “I don’t know what all this is…” It seems to me this is that time machine you referenced earlier!
Even that double-curved pump handle is more than I could ever come up with (let alone make). The mechanical skill and intelligence that went in to actually making these is on another level. Stunning stuff. And thank you, Ian, for bringing it to us!
“That’s my patent you Magot!”
Well played, sir!
My homie Niko Bellic 💯
Very interesting! I just spent the week figuring out why a Mosbergh 500 bolt was sticking closed, finally figured that out ,then just watched this video! Oh my word. I could fiddle with that action for months LOL.
On a side note Bannermans island was on the East side of the Hudson river from Cornwall NY where I grew up. We could spend the whole day exploring the castle and grounds. Some areas were covered in old helmets 6' deep. Thousands of bayonets' and tons of military accoutrements. A few years later there was a fire that gutted the castle. My father gave me an old rifle from the basement of a house in Newburgh NY, also within sight of the island. A trapdoor rifle in 50/70. As new from when it was converted from the musket. I was in my teens by then and ordered brass from Dixie Gun Works. Had to sell it when I got married. My 1921 Thompson gun turned into a new refrigerator. I wish I was young again!!!!!!LOL
I had the pleasure of visiting the Cody Firearms museum last month. 1) My goodness was it neat and amazing. 2) The staff was awesome, interested in their exhibits and glad to share what they knew. And 3) Found myself wishing I had a portable Ian with so I could learn more and better appreciate what I was seeing. A good teacher makes anything interesting and you are a great one Ian!
It would have been interesting to see how they worked with dummy cartridges.
No way your get either to cycle at the moment to be honest.
Ian: "look at this gorgeous Viper STEN Conversion and the Prussian Bittner 1896!"
The internet: "oh my gosh... The most steampunky guns eva! "
Ian: ".. Wait for it..."
The ruins of Bannerman castle still sits on an island on the Hudson and can be seen by riders on the Metro North. Thanks Ian for filling in on the background of a ruin I have passed many times.
Very cool to hear about Bannerman, I live up the river from the ruins of the castle.
Kel-Tec: Write that down, write that down!
This is a great example of truly "Forgotten Weapons"!
Now there is a pair of Rube Goldberg contraptions if I've ever seen one.
the lovechild of a trumpet and a shotgun
More like trombone and shotgun.
Tactical Trombones of the Gilded Age.
Thank you , Ian .
Extremely interesting hearing that first bit about Bannerman's Castle in the Hudson River! When I would go hiking in those mountains around the river I'd always see that island and building on there thinking it was super cool wondering about the history but never did much research into it. It surprised me to find out what it really was, and especially because this video was the reason I now know about it. I never would have expected that lol. Next time I go hiking and see that little island I'll now know the history about it and it'll make me think of this video.
I live very close to Cornwall and hike Storm King Mountain a fair amount. Love seeing the remains of the castle that wound up EXPLODING. So much history in the Hudson Valley, I love it.
I'm so envious of your access to all these interesting historical firearms. Keep the great videos coming.
Love the deep dive into specific guns and how they work, but these history videos are equally awesome. Thanks for the interesting story/education!
The resemblence between alof's system and that winchester produced replica is very much stunning
Cant wait for your bannerman spencer video! I have several and am somewhat obsessed with them...
I live right near bannermans castle, when I was little we used to go by it all the time when we would go boating in the Hudson with my grandparents. It’s funny I’ve never heard reference of it in anything aside from local knowledge and the normal tourist attraction
That was one of my favorites I've ever seen! Love the whole background story to it all!!
I'm starting day two at Cody right now, all thanks to this video for reminding me to make a stop on my way home to the southeast. Thank you Ian.
They built guns from patent drawings to prove a point? Amazing story. Imaging being given such a task. A patent drawing is so far from actual manufacturing plans. That prototyping shop must have had very skilled workers.
Imagine that bullet point on your resume.
"Transformed a patent drawing into a functional firearm for a court case in X weeks."
Interviewer: 🤯 you're hired!!!
@@ScottKenny1978 Today, the could make millions in building the coolest steampunk gear imaginable.
@@jan-hendrikbussmann4644 I know I want one of those guns...
Makes me want to sneak into the museum and put that rifle together properly.
Damn skippy! It is just timed wrong.
Suck, squish, bang, pull.
shotgun.
@@kmoecub Yup...
I was a Machinist Mate, not a Gunners Mate... but that Krutzsch breech reminds me of what I saw of the 3' 50 Dual Purpose workings of the guns on my first ship.
I sense a future deep dive into that crazy looking french pump action gun. And I'd be totally down for it, and will watch for sure if it does happen
"I wasn't able to get it out of the display case" - Gun Jesus needs to collaborate with the Lock Picking Lawyer.
I've seen LPL comment under at least one Forgotten Weapons video.
It's not really surprising, as guns are intricate mechanisms, often designed with some interesting flaws and they usually contain great engineering.
The overlap between Ian and LPL is pretty large, as is the overlap in audience :)
Man i fucking wish guns look like this now those looks so cool just like the mauser 1911
I first saw the Bannerman's Island Arsenal castle on Andrew Camarata's channel. He's run jet skis up the Hudson and flown a drone around it a few times.
I know we've said this about a lot of guns, but that Krutzsch straight up looks like a prop blaster rifle from star wars
The Magot looks like it only works if you bathed it long enough in several different oils while chanting zeros and ones...
Indeed. Its Machine Spirit has strayed far from the Emperor's Light and must be placated.
Really hope we'll get a closer look at both of these at some point!
"Story Time At The Cody Museum" should definitely become a themed event!! I would love that...
Seriously though what interesting firearms and the backstory is fascinating!
I would love to visit Cody and her wonderful Museum :-)
I need to see all of those disassembled. It's like the Graal of cool weird guns.
Hey Ian. I’d recommend you try and take a tour of Bannerman’s island while the castle is still (mostly) standing. I live a stones throw away from it.
That 1885 Roper looks just so modern - at least at first sight.
08:00 - they went to that much work shaping the slide handle because they found it required so much force to feed a cartridge, would be my guess.
Those guns are works of art.
Ian should be allowed all the time in the world to understand these firearms!
Those look so magnificently unique!
I've only heard a little about Francis X. Bannerman, but he seems to have been quite a character. He built his "Island Arsenal" because, for some reason, residents, businesses, and local government in Lower Manhattan objected to having tons of explosives stored in their vicinity. I have heard of a deal on which he presumably made a killing, via a Coast Artillery WWI unit history website. Circa 1905 the US Navy replaced 6-inch and other guns on a number of its older ships with newer models. Bannerman bought up a number of the guns at presumably scrap value. Fast forward to 1917. The US has entered World War I and has tasked the Coast Artillery Corps with operating most nondivisional heavy and railway artillery. Although most of the weapons used in France were obtained from the French and British other procurements were made. Numerous weapons were cannibalized from fixed coast defense installations and put on mobile mountings, and US production of French and British designs was implemented. And something like 30 ex-Navy 6-inch guns were purchased from Bannerman, presumably at a high profit for him. According to a recollection by a Coast Artillery officer, the Navy guns ranged from 30 to 50 calibers long, and were all cut down to 30 calibers in hopes of somewhat standardizing the ballistics. I have no information on whether these weapons were shipped to France, but it seems very doubtful. A sufficient number (around 72) of the Army 6-inch weapons removed from coast defense sites had been sent to France, equipping three regiments that never saw action due to not completing training before the Armistice (this was the case for about 12 of the 25 or so Coast Artillery regiments in France). So, it seems there would have been no need for the ex-Navy weapons, and Bannerman would be the only one to see a return on the deal.
Makes you wonder why they haven't reassembled it correctly. Be cool to see it actually working properly
Two by two, hands in blue... There is something very Firefly about these steam punk space western guns.
Idk why but I literally love this video. The style, comedy, history and weaponry. The perfect Forgotten Weapons video to date.
I think the hollow "bolt" was assembled to the rotating shaft 180 deg out of position. Remove the pin, rotate the bolt and reinsert the pin.
That Magot is unusually gorgeous. From far away it looks like it has a fixed internal magazine that got rusted and busted, but the closer shots show it to be a work of art. I'd throw down good money even for a repro with a plugged barrel. I'm sure Ian can figure out those mechanisms given time for further review - the stock magazine especially makes sense just from looking at it.
This channel made me realise how mechanically fascinating guns actually are. Before that I just thought they're handy for self-defense and fun to shoot because they go BOOM.
Sure they're impractical and overly complex, but they are very interesting for review subjects! Cool history and video.
Morning Ian! Love your videos
This was a fun ride down winchester and their history
The lines of the Magot are really reminiscent of the Browning semi auto .22, cool!
AMAZing. Best Episode ever. Bravo!
The remnants of the Bannerman Castle still sit in the Hudson River. Impressive to see!
Those look like something the Mandalorian should be carrying.
It piss me off when i see the Krutzsch shotgun cause it didn't assembled in the correct way. PLEASE HEAL THE GUN, IAN !!!
This content is the reason i love your channel! Thanks Ian! Much love from Germany.
I really want you to revisit that french one, when you can negotiate and prepare for a more thorough investigation. It's clear the slide has a v-shaped cam track that the side pins are meant to run in, but it never reached that far back. probably mis-assembled like the other was.
Incredible. Imagine people that are new subscribers, what a journey they can take on this channel.
Winchester to tool shop: 'Build one of these.'
Tool shop: 'Won't that cost about the same as the annual GDP of Canada?'
Winchester: 'Don't worry about it, Bannerman will be paying.'
@6.43 you can see the inside of that plate on the pumpbar that has a track in it, i suspect it operates that odd lever with a pin on the outside.