Star Trek Discovery 5.05 "Mirrors" Review
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- Опубліковано 6 жов 2024
- As if through a mirror,darkly... wait, I've heard this before.
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1:04 Jessie takes the brave stance that evil is bad.
A divisive standpoint these days.
Ugh, now she’s too woke!
Remember Burnham comes from the TOS and SNW era where the captain leads most away missions.
Something I've noticed about Rayner: when someone is speaking to him, he often looks like he's in pain. As if all babble is actually hurting him.
People who are introverted can feel this way. For others, too much talk can lead to sensory overload. And the crew of the Discovery... babble. They talk too much, and tend to vocalise their thoughts.
While this can work well in some situations, such as working out how to hold the wormhole open, for people who get sensory overload it can be a real problem.
I suspect that this is what's going on with Rayner. He's not trying to be jerk, he just has this overload problem and is trying to control it by controlling his environment: telling people to speak efficiently.
I agree this is possible, and I give credit to the actor. I find myself relating to Rayner a bit (but with significant and obvious differences) as a Gen X male. The real-life actor is 63, so older than me, but as I age, I can relate.
From my perspective, yes, he has many attributes of being a jerk, and sometimes I've found his toxic masculinity to be pretty extreme. That can't be brushed aside. It was a big part of how they established the character - that and the "combat soldier who struggles in a time of peace" trope.
But the pep talks remind me of situations that are unintentionally very painful. People who may not have experienced these pep talks first hand don't know that they hurt a person rather than helping. The pep talks are a reminder that he's in a position of relative weakness, and he's viewed as needing pep talks out of weakness. If he were still a captain, and still respected the way he was as a captain, he would not be getting these constant pep talks. If I put myself in his place I'd want to be able to do my job professionally but without the constant pep talks that are only being given because of perceived weakness.
I know that Jesse interpreted Rayner as expressing a lack of confidence in himself in his conversation with Burnham. That's not how I interpreted the scene (scenes are open to interpretation based partly on our personal backgrounds, so this isn't an attack). I saw this as Rayner expressing his view of what should be done in this situation. It is quite reasonable to assume that in this time period, it may be customary still for Captains to stay on a ship and other officers to go on these type of away missions. So his suggestion is a matter of duty. Not lack of confidence in himself. Burnham quickly leaped to the assumption that Rayner lacks confidence just as others (Stamets) assumed Rayner lacks confidence in himself. He reacted appropriately by going along with it, that's how you should handle a situation when people start alternating between insulting you or giving you pep talks out of perceived weakness and you are talking with someone in a superior position.
I don't know the character's age. But just for conversation with the actor's age, this would be a 63-year old experienced commanding officer, combat vet (they've hinted he is highly decorated from combat), with likely four decades in the military and likely around two decades (or more) of experience in commanding positions. He likely does not lack confidence. He would likely find these pep talks demeaning internally but know better than to speak up.
Any lack of confidence related to commanding this crew would perhaps relate to his knowledge that they view him as someone who has been demoted, and they might not really respect or trust him. Tilly made it crystal clear she has zero respect for him (and his behavior was on the toxic side too - both were at fault). That's a form of situational confidence. But that's different from lacking confidence in relation to his personal ability to be in command.
From my perspective the word limit thing reflects a preference for precision. Discovery's crew does tend to ramble. It may also be introversion, you could be right. And it may be his lack of comfort in the situation he's in on the ship (a demoted former captain receiving a range of put-downs from Tilly or pep talks from Burnham and Stamets, neither one of which he likely wants if I place myself in a position similar as him).
It is painful to find yourself in a situation (social, career) where people treat you differently (with insults, pep talks, and assumptions) based on a lowered status (be it temporary or permanent).
There are ways to handle this situation that are healthy and helpful. On Rayner's part, his approach in the "Tilly v. Rayner" episode was unhealthy, and other things he did were unhealthy. He is doing the right thing by letting people give him pep talks, and letting Burnham think that their situations are identical (they are not). He's in a spot where it's best for him to go along even if it hurts.
On the part of Burnham and others in Discovery, in real life, they would be hurting him without realizing it (I realize that giving a pep talk and comparing life experiences tends to feel good to the one giving the pep talk). The way to truly help him (in real life not a fiction show where things get sanitized by screenwriters) would be to let him do his work professionally, cut back on the insults and pep talks and assumptions. Be good colleagues and set a positive work environment where yes he will open up, but even as he opens up, realize his background and give him credit for the background.
He made a mistake that resulted in a demotion and there were hints at other mistakes or at least a bad attitude as identified by superiors. That's worth recognizing and addressing. But not as if he suddenly lost all confidence. He's a 63 year old experienced commanding officer, highly decorated (63 by the actor's age anyway) and would likely prefer to be treated as such.
@@billkerns9258Thank you for the TED talk 🫶🖖🏼😉. I agree with most of what you said, being 62 myself. I do think being demoted does make sense a difference, as well as being older ( noise can overload one even with hearing loss ) and set in his ways after decades of service and command. Also, he’s dealing with people who technically are a thousand years old 😏 and a ship that does things no other can. He’s in a new situation and learning what they’re like as well as a very different ship with a sentient computer. Not everyone can just jump into a “ new” job and be expected to fit the mold immediately.
I loved how while Rayner has to adjust to the crews style, the crew also is adjusting to his. They're finding a middle ground that works for everyone, a very Starfleet thing.
The bit where Rayner asks for details and (IIRC) Adira says, "You don't need to know the details" showed incredible growth on both of their parts.
What I like from this season is that it's drawing on its own past instead of relying heavily on nostalgia to engage viewers. Even the setting was because they needed to finish a story from Discovery's past and not because "cool setting I've seen before in other shows!"
They didn't even say High Chancellor Spock for the emotional gut punch. Which is good, and I fully expected it. Love that one of the scientists was Terran
Was it Spock?
As shown in Jesse's video - DS9 made it canon that Spock eventually led the Terran Empire and pushed for reforms. In the episode, Burnham reads about an assassination attempt on a High Chancellor who was pushing reforms. According to DS9, this unfortunately leads to the fall of the Empire and the rise of the Klingon-Cardassian Alliance.
What we've found is that Mirror "Action Saru" helped the ISS Enterprise escape with several Terran refugees, including Dr. Cho.
I meant that Discovery showed some non-characteristic restraint not just saying to Burnham "Mirror Spock was also an honorable man that accomplished a lot in his time..." or something along those lines.
@@juniorbacon Most likely, though strictly speaking that's not certain. Spock was interested in pushing reforms, and IIRC in DS9 it was his reforms that led to the fall of the Empire, though I don't recall it mentioning his assassintation.
There were moments in Star Trek Online and a few other extra-canon sources where the Breen are hypothesized to be semi-gelatinous in their physiology. I loved seeing that that was acknowledged and utilized in a way that was thematic while also being a nod to fan theories. It also quietly explains why the Breen would side with the Dominion in DS9 when for the most part, we never saw exactly why they'd do so. In one episode, they quietly answered quite a few longstanding questions without drawing too much attention to it. Damn good writing there.
Throughout the episode all I had in the back of my mind is "damnit, they are wrecking Dr. M'Benga's Sickbay!" "Stop that, please." Also, I loved the little nod to Chris Pike's warp catchphrase of "Hit it" from Strange New Worlds there near the end from Book, and Burnham saying that didn't feel right, cheeky, very cheeky.
Always love "Discovery" ❤... But would rather it not end...😢
So Breen will use technology to eliminate all the solids or eliminate solid part in all Breen Confederacy. It will explain their alliance with the Dominion during Dominion War.
The Dominion War was about 1000 years ago by current DISCO time.
Rhys: I love the constitution class.
Rayner: Rhys loves the constitution class.
Michael: Detmer and Owosekun can take the enterprise.
It seriously seemed like they were building to a big Rhys moment and it never came.
Rhys saw the Constitution class in season 2 when he and the rest of Disco’s crew were evacuated to Pike’s Enterprise. Burnham needs Rhys at tactical on Discovery.
The bridge crew desperately each need their own episode
@@TroutBoneless 100% agree.
@@TroutBoneless Probably not enough episodes left to do that. I wish we found out how Detmer got her head injury.
@@thomashong2938 I thought it was implied (in season one) that she got it during the Battle Of The Binary Stars. Or maybe I imagined her on the Shen-zou, it's been a while!
The liquid was attached to the map piece when they found mol and lok
Book was helped by the former Cleveland Booker and so is enabled to help Moll. So, could we say that Moll's father is helping her... by proxy, in some way?
Love Disco expanding the lore of the Breen and also love that Disco continues to give the mirror universe story beat the nuance and depth it deserves.
Same thing that happened to Enterprise. Finally get things right and it's after cancellation.
my one complaint about this episode:
if there is any one single person on board Discovery who should be able to understand Culber's struggles with metaphysics, you would think it would be the guy who tripped mushrooms so hard that he broke the laws of physics for an entire spaceship as his day job, and who exists outside of the space-time continuum.
I think there has been some inconsistency with Stamets' character in regards to his relationship with the metaphysical and psychedelic. Remember the way stamets behaved when he was still tripping after the first spore jump? And the way he talked when he thought he was going to retire form the spore program, before they got stuck in the mirror universe?
For story reasons it makes sense that Culber has to go to someone else to have this discussion, but come on, no one besides Culber has as much experience with the trippy shit as Stamets. Tilly shouldnt have to explain to Culber that there is common ground between science and spirituality, his abuela was a doctor who was VERY spiritual. Like, he straight up comes from a culture that understands the connection. Maybe this is setting something up for Culber in a later episode.
I just came up with a possible explanation. Maybe its just been a long time since Stamets tripped, and so the short term effects have worn off. He needs a nice spore jump to get back to that more awe-filled person he has been lol
I mean Stamets was sort of communing with his Mirror Universe self during that time.
Stamets is very much a science-first, no-nonsense unspiritual approach. If there's no explanation, he looks for an explanation. I mean - as called back in the last episode - he is a curmudgeon that everyone is afraid of. Culber not only lived with that, but fell in love with that a bit - so I don't think it's particularly out of character for him to be so resistant to share this with his long term. That said, Culber also clearly stated in the last episode that he wasn't satisfied with his abuela's embracing of the spiritual - that it wasn't enough.
That said - a culture that does connect the scientific and the spiritual most is - well - Vulcan.
There was an old "gotcha" that evangelicals used to tell me - "Science says that a bee can't fly, but it flies nevertheless." Now the statement is ridiculous, but there was a brief time in history where science didn't have documented study of why a bee flies, because it didn't have sufficient science to explain it... yet. They eventually did. Because a) if it flies but the mechanism for how it flies isn't known, that doesn't mean science doesn't recognize its flight. Obviously, a bee flies. Science in no way denies that. It just can't explain it. b) It was eventually explained because of continued scientific research, study, and discovery.
Here, the spiritual journey is literally a search for gods - but in a very mundane, scientific manner. The Progenitors explain the existence of so many humanoids in the Star Trek Universe. It is an extreme evolutionary coincidence why there are so many humanoids, after all. However, to accept that would have to accept literal Intelligent Design - which in 21st century science is definitely not an accepted concept. Of course, this is obviously the result of so many fictional conveniences within the Star Trek meant to explain away budgetary and narrative constraints. You cannot tell a story about visiting alien worlds without interstellar travel - hence, faster-than-light Warp drive. Can't figure out how to land the starship? Invent the Transporter. A supply of food and equipment for the crew? Invent the replicator, and eventually develop a semi-utopian post-scarcity economic system.
Regardless, the influence of the fiction on reality must also be stated: we have research today in faster-than-light travel, with several theoretical concepts. We're literally studying teleportation. We have proposed semi-utopian post-scarcity systems being talked about today.
That said, if - as human beings - we meet several humanoid aliens, I'm sure that extreme sort of convergent evolution would eventually beg such a question and warrant scientific investigation. But with the Progenitor explanation - is it even evidence of the spiritual? the miraculous?
Probably the same spiritual journey found in TNG's "the Chase" - which isn't just a story about a genetic treasure map, but about the evidence and acceptance that we're all not so different, despite cultural and superficial differences. As much as Star Trek is about space, it's also about Humanity and how we react to things.
Sorry for the ramble, you just inspired a response I've been thinking over in the last couple of episodes.
I simply think that Stamets is too close to home and he needs someone who can see with a bit more distance. He can speak with Paul later on.
@@jmarquiso these are some good thoughts and you bring up some good points, especially about Vulcans, I wasn't even thinking about how Vulcans combine rigorous logic with spirituality that is tangible. I appreciate a good ramble lol.
But more to my original comment, I think I tend to project more psychedelic experience onto Stamets than the show intends. I thought Stamets was going to permanently change his personality after his experiences with the mycelial network and become more like his namesake, the irl mycologist Paul Stamets who is very much the type who revels in the mystery of the universe and has plenty of time for nonsense lol
Evil Universe Jessie!
Episode 5 already? My goodness. 👀
Also note that the dedication plaque suggested that the ISS Enterprise had been rechristened, likely about a decade before TNG/DS9 in the prime universe.
What's scary was that the third life sign in the ISS Enterprise sickbay was a mirror-universe tribble. They are the most nutritious and delicious food in the galaxy - but nearly impossible to breed.
I thought they were detecting Prime-Universe quantum signatures, not lifesigns?
@@antney7745 - Maybe, I was tired and making a silly joke
He's a dick sometimes, but he can grow. Especially with help from Burnham.
Head cannon: Rayner would like Christmas pudding. Traditionally a Christmas pudding is boiled in cloth.
I've been amused at how many people don't know that various desserts are boiled.
That's what I thought of!
Traditionally all puddings are boiled or steamed in a cloth, that's what it means, that's why things like black pudding are puddings even though they're savoury.
@@stevemc81 - True, as a USian I gradually understood that what many here call pudding is more accurately custard.
Clootie dumpling is a great example of a boiled "cake". It's the main reason I look forward to Christmas dinner here in Scotland.
What you said about systems and circumstances. To me, this is always what really made the mirror universe different. It’s not an “evil” universe. It’s a world where fascism affected people on a broad scale, both from the Terran Empire and the Klingon-Cardassian Alliance. And people can be molded by that fascism like Captain Killy, Regent Worf, Intendant Kira, Lorca, and so on. They can break out of that system like Spock, Sisko, and even eventually Georgiou. Or they can fight against it, like O’Brien, Leeta, Ezri, and the rest of the Terok Nor gang.
Breen fasciam
@@juniorbacon also a very good example
Given that’s what Mirror O’Brien’s little speech at the end of the first DS9 mirror episode gets at, I kinda always thought that was the point of the MU.
@@kaitlyn__L absolutely. That’s a really good point that I failed to mention. The mirror universe to me (and the Burn era does this to) is a test of Trek’s “we can be better” credo. It’s easy to start trying to be more than what we are in a system like the Federation. It seems insurmountable against the Empire or the Alliance, but just like it can seem impossible in our real world. But we have to try.
They couldn't show Mirror Pike, as according to TOS he was assassinated by Mirror Kirk when he took command of the ISS Enterprise. :)
TOS canon is not necessarily SNW canon.
I liked it for the most part; I'm not sure if I approve of the canon that it establishes for the Breen, though. I mean, the central appeal of them was that they were mysteriously alien; ordinary translators couldn't handle their language, they wear refrigeration suits in spite of being from a temperate world, we learn that they once destroyed an entire Klingon armada to the last warrior, and so on. And then we get their interior culture and they're just...people. The guy's b*tching about his uncle. And I get that Star Trek is about how different races can get along, but could we please just have some respect for the concept of Alienness?
You are wonderful and totally awesome. Thank you for the video. Love you. LLAP 🖖
Another strong episode. I'm glad we got a little bit of a backstory on Moll and L-ak. I am loving the character of Rayner!
Oh, the idea of Mirror Jessie terrifies me. But I'm also somehow curious...
Scarousal ™️
Finally, after 25 years the Breen have a face now. And all honesty, I was expecting to hear the voice of Mirror Spock (Ethan Peck) in one of the ISS Enterprise logs. And my favorite part of this episode, is seeing a Ferengi bartender and a Lurian customer in the bar.
I hope we'll see the ISS Enterprise again in the upcoming Star Trek Academy.
Or in Strange New Worlds.
They Never Needed A Face
Especially a Human (the very term is racist) Face!
There has to be a corny gimmick for alt universe Pike. It's right in the name: he stabs people with a sword.
I was thinking that just because we have the jellyBreens still doesn't mean there aren't other races in the Breen. The Breen was a confederacy which implies a group of various peoples, countries, etc coming together in an alliance. The jellyBreens may have been a group, that for some reason, started exerting influence over the rest of the Breen, eventually turning it into an Imperium. We really don't know what became of the Breen-Dominion Alliance after the war. The Breen did not sign the Treaty of Bajor. Could a jellyBreen link with a Founder? Lots of things that won't be answered but lots of seeds now.
I really enjoyed this ep. I love that Disco is fleshing out the Breen! Gotta say, I'm loving this entire season so far. It seems like they're finally having fun with it!
Punishing continuity question! The ISS Enterprise is from TOS times, and the "clue" is from TNG times, but Stamets says the ship was hidden in a pocket dimension created by the Burn, nearly 1000 years into the future TNG. How did the artifact get onto the ship, and how did the ship get that far into the future?
Id have preferred it be any other ship than the Enterprise, literally pull a name out if a hat, could still be Constitution, that would have still been enough to evoke the connection to Spock, but running into the same ships time and time again is making Trek feel like a very small universe.
So... the Detmer-Owosekun relationship REALLY heated up in this one. It almost wept tears of arousal when I saw the U-HAUL sticker next to the impulse exhaust as the two of them took off on the ISS Enterprise. They are going to get so much smooch. Hurray for Star Trek's invisible lesbians. 💞🖖
Also: this one's mention of Mirror Spock raised a few side questions that melted my brain: Was Mirror Spock a descendant of Mirror Mystique? Is Mirror Mystique the Ms. Marvel / Captain Marvel of the Mirror Universe? Was she Jack the Ripper instead of Sherlock Holmes? Was Mirror Mystique out & proud in the 1800s and going by Girlc*ck Holmes? (See X-Men Bue: Origins for more info) Is it none of the above, and it's all Prime Mystique traveling the multiverse?
Has Seven of Nine reached/equaled Spock's icon-ness in the Star Trek universe?
I was hoping that Prime Lorca was one of the refugees that transferred to the Prime Universe aboard the ISS Enterprise to resolve that dangling plot thread, but alas it was not to be.
He could show up in Strange New Worlds. Or in the upcoming Section 31 movie. Or in a sequel film.
I hate to burst your bubble but I don’t think he’s a dangling plot thread, I think he’s dead. The story regarding the transporter accident suggests he was probably killed aboard the ISS Buran before we even knew what was going on. If they wanted to use him, there’s always flashbacks of maybe a 2240s series, but then people would complain about prequels again
@@Cdr2002 Given that Mirror Landry and the other Lorca co-conspirators had survived, the idea that ISS Buran had no survivors should be taken with a grain of salt. Prime Lorca might not be dead, after all. If the Empire had recovered his remains, then Emperor Georgiou would have been surprised to see a second Lorca turn up and would have challenged his identity. She didn’t do that.
@@Cdr2002 we have not seen a body, nor any evidence that he's died. That's a dangling plot thread.
@@danboyle7165 evidence? He was a prime universe Starfleet captain transported to a Terran Imperial ship that was explicitly stated to have been subsequently lost with all hands. The ability to create a situation to bring him back exists, I will grant enough ambiguity for that. But the creative intention is to me, pretty obviously that he’s dead
"I'll get into spoilers in the back half"
>Back half is 19 of the 24 minutes in the video
The back half is always thicc as hell lol
I agree about obtaining the artefact was very light in the plot, so far this has been one of my favourite episodes this season for the character development and situations though. Sometimes the conventional storylines makes things very predictable, but I like the way they didn't do that and instead got hopefully signs of what happened on the ISS Enterprise only, and also a very different and challenging dialogue between Moll and Booker based on their opposing experiences of the same connection. I love the breen development with Lok and Moll's connection being outsiders of their own kind. All the running parrallels in this episode were so well done.
The one thing that bothered me in this episode! Stamets’ line: “Is that the ISS NCC-1701?” when he could never have discerned that.
Yup, it was even weird when Michael and Rainer immediately clocked it as ISS and they were much closer at the time. Woulda much prefer a 2-step “Is that the enterprise?” Then they catch the registry and go “Oh”
He can do to his connection to the spore network and can feel that the ship isn't from their universe
@@sonicsean34yet they saw iss before they saw the name enterprise so putting the two together
@@sonicsean34-- Rainer wasn't with Michael during that moment. That was Book.
@@davidrohde2636-- I agree.
Curious the way the bridge crew are almost (but not quite) entirely different this year.
The treasure hunt format is a little hackneyed, but it does provide a convenient structure for this season (as you said) so I dig it.
Going in a different direction with my comment. This entire episode reminds me of the song "Follow You Down" by the Gin Blossoms.
In the lyrics, it totally connects to both M'oll & L'auck, Burnham & Book
Together, they go through everything. But sometimes have to be apart, but they never give up on one another
Loved Mol and L'aks back story in this. I'm sick of the 'they hate each other but boy do they secret love each other' trope. Its nice to see a space couple who'd fight the entire galaxy to be together.
Was a little disappointed when they initially suggested what the Breen are but the new Breen suits look great and the actual reveal felt much more intresting. I still hope we get to see the future cardassians before Disco ends
I suspect we’ll see mostly green Breen if we see any besides L’ak with their masks off. Jelly Breen look expensive.
I'm really looking forward to, after the season ends, someone making a video exploring whether or not Rayner is autistic, or to what extent he can be viewed thru that lens. He's a surprisingly captivating character, he feels somewhat inspired by Kirk's character in Star Trek VI, but he's been placed in a world that is more understanding and progressive than what movie writers could imagine in the 80s. He doesn't quite connect with others in normal human social interactions, and we can feel him trying to connect with people, but his seriousness gets in the way. The struggle he seems to have as a social being reminds me of how my friends on the spectrum speak about their struggles.
hey jessie..always good to see you...i just watched about a dozen different reviews for this episode and they all said how horrible it was (one actually calling it the worst star trek episode ever)...but i knew that you would give it a positive spin...
i like the black uniform..looks good on you...
peace and good health to you always..
rocky
With this being the final season I’m not liking how they’re breaking up the Command Crew, first they sidelined Saru and now it seems like Owo and Detmier will be missing from the next episode. I was really hoping they were gonna detach the saucer from the N’cels when they were going back through the wormhole.
Though I do have issues with this season (on a per episode basis, but particularly the stakes of the overarching story), I agree that this season really hit the stride, they figured out how to make the larger arc actually work pretty well (outside of that stakes problem) in a way they'd been struggling with...every other season. It does make me a bit sad that it's the final season, but also glad that they were able to figure it out before the show ended.
I really liked this episode for the work it does to flesh out our "villains", along with the Book/Moll dynamic and interplay we get (Book has been a show MVP, such a great addition to the cast), but it did feel like they were trying to conserve the budget a bit by mostly setting it on a set they already had (the SNW Enterprise, even if it's the "ISS version") and setting the flashbacks in a dull cargo bay. It was around the second or third time they flashed back to that cargo bay that I went "oh, they just don't want to set things anywhere else, eh, not even a nondescript form of quarters?", but it didn't ruin things for me, I really liked most of the episode.
About the only bit I didn't think worked was the Burnham/L'ak conflict once the forcefields were dropped, particularly the injury of L'ak - that was just badly choreographed/blocked/filmed and an eyerolling tropey way to revive the separation of the two sides. Actually, Moll & L'ak's escape also seems badly set up, as until that moment, the episode was telling us "the shuttle Book & Burnham arrived on was the only way off the ship". Spoilers, but I am more annoyed by that move in that the couple don't even appear in the next episode (the last that I have seen as of writing, will be watching 7+ once I finish watching and responding to the reviews I'd missed over the last several weeks), so it feels unnecessary and makes me worry where they'll go from here.
Rayner continues to integrate into the series and crew well, playing a good "gruff, blunt, but still somewhat caring and smart" role, especially as he grows and pushes through that, especially like his boiled cake quip and his attempt to incentivize the crew with "citrus mash" (then sighing and conceding "mash for everyone" when it's the group discussion that resolves it). I want more Rayner and Jett Reno, though. And just more Jett Reno in general, Jett is the best and does not get enough credit or screentime.
I kinda don't like that the Breen have faces now
Some things are better left a mystery
We don't need to know who the Furlings are. Rey didn't need an important bloodline. And the Breen should have never taken their helmets off.
Important question: What kind of hairstyle would Mirror Universe Pike have?
I've missed your show analysis ❤
Come for the outfits stay for the content! Omigosh this look is so cute!
i am shocked, shocked that Jessie didn't make a little glass vial reference in regards to the clue and its watery surprise.
Time can be a really wobbly thing in Star Trek. Sometimes it's altered thanks to visitors from the past/future. Sometimes there's a divergence (such as the Mirror Universe, where humanity took a darker route along the way, forming the Terran Empire) that creates a new parallel universe.
Is the I.S.S. Enterprise from the Prime Mirror Universe, or a divergent Mirror Universe? The Mirror Universe had so many incursions/visits from the Prime Universe (such as using future tech from TOS era U.S.S. Defiant in the time of Mirror Archer to give the growing Empire a leg up), that this could very well be from the resulting divergent timeline of the Mirror Universe.
After all, this Enterprise became a refugee ship post altered Empress inadvertantly left it in a mess, and stranded in that dimensional pocket.
❤❤❤❤❤YA JG great reveal as well as always now I’m just wondering what the mirror universe version of Jesse is like??
I am very much enjoying this season, however I am somewhat disappointed (so far) that multiple characters appear to be viewing the Progenitors and their mcguffin as some form of Grand Unified Theory or The Meaning of Life rather than a more generalized philosophical curiosity about common origins of humanoids. If anything is evident it's that the Progenitors are basically grand-scale video game designers.
The seasons were so stretched out I can barely remember the last one. The studios can't really blame the fans for giving up on series if it takes 5 years to get new seasons. Maybe just do two or three at a time and then take a break and start back up before they run out of material.
Star Trek can't survive like this. There is too much other stuff you can sit down and watch in two or three days and feel fulfilled.
Minor point. Since they found a post-TOS Enterprise, shouldn't the bridge have been the TOS mirror bridge rather than SNW?
Wouldn't the ISS Enterprise blip back and forth like Emperor Georgiou since it is far from its time period in the mirror universe? The Discovery writers room set this up, why didn't they follow their own mirror universe/time travel rules?
Good point.
I suppose it may be a later - century Enterprise.
If you've had a doughnut, you've had boiled cake. Just with sugar or frosting or glaze over the thing.
Boiled cake is also a thing.
@@jojoone1099 You are right. But I suspect a lot more people have had, and will continue to get, doughnuts than boiled cake as its own entity. Maybe I'm wrong?
@nancyjay790
Maybe you are right, and the connection may be clearer. But old fashioned-cake recipes and fruit cake use water to "boil" the cake. Donuts are usually fried like fritters.
Honestly I'm not a fan of the literal plot-device this season. I like that there's a bunch of very distinct, separate episodes which all fit into one larger plot, but the progenitor clues are such an obvious plot engine. It feels like what it is: a concept designed to let them tell completely unrelated stories and hang them together as if they were related. It's not an organic progression, and it feels fake
I think a lot of the season 4 episodes worked a lot better, because it wasn't quite as formulaic. It had a lot of mostly-self contained episodes (like this season), and it tied them together into an overarching story (like this season), but when one episode contained the seed for the next one, it felt a little more natural, because the connection was different each time
For instance, when Book and the other scientist decided to break away from the federation, they lost access to a lot of resources, and they ended up on the opposite side to Micheal. So they followed it up with an episode where Book was trying to acquire some essential resources, and he was in direct conflict with Michael. It follows naturally, and it means that that particular episode belongs at that particular place in the season. You couldn't put it anywhere else
I think that's one of the keys that can make a standalone episode feel like it's really part of a bigger story: a story involves change and progression, so if an episode fits neatly into one specific place in the season, then it's respecting those changes. If you could reorganize the episodes without changing anything, then there's not much of a story going on
In this season, Discovery usually ends an episode with one more progenitor clue than that had last episode, but that doesn't really count, because it's not really got an impact on anything else in the episode. You could completely reorder the episodes and the only thing you'd have to change is the number of plot tokens they've found, and which "next-location" clue was attached to each one
I guess i dislike it because it's _pretending_ to be an overarching story without really being one . Season 4 didn't always make it as neat as the example I gave above, but when there wasn't a good connection, they didn't seem to feel the need to make a cheap effort to force one
Love that mirror uniform! Wherever did you get it?
I just got around to watching this episode last night. I understand why a more mirror universe-centric storyline might have felt too much like fanservice for some people's liking, but if they're not going to lean into it, why even bother including the ISS Enterprise at all (other than the fact that the SNW sets were available)? It felt like a wasted opportunity to me. I was disappointed that Burnham never even learned anything about Mirror Spock.
Also, I'm not sure how I feel about us finally knowing what the Breen look like. The non-canon version in which they were actually comprised of multiple races was actually more interesting to me.
You need to move the strap over the shoulder so the rank badge sits on top...😊❤
Not knowing what breen look like is now gone
It seems the Breen themselves don't really know what they look like.
There was something at the end of the episode that confused me. When Book came in to talk to Michael, she was looking at an image of a Changeling (at least I think it was a Changeling). Specifically, the "woman" Changeling from DS9. But I wasn't sure why she was looking at it at all. It seemed completely random. So I hope they'll provide some details later on that. And if not... Oh, well. Not a big deal, I guess.
I didn't notice it. It was probably the progenitor lady. The Founder leader and the progenitor message person look alike, sound alike, and are played by the same actor.
The progenitor character was played by the same actress who portrayed the changeling.
In fact, it appeared that DS9 simply changed the color of the outfit from white to dark orange and made minor adjustments to the makeup and voila!!
Talking about DS9-connections: did anyone catch the Lurian (Morn) at the end of the bar scene?
I missed him in this one, but he's been at the bar in previous episodes.
We are pretty much on one accord on this episode and this season! I loved the backstory more than you, but that's okay! THANKS for this!!!
I can't remember most of the Breen stuff. Maybe I have blocked it out. In any case, it wasn't necessary, and all we need is Breen details that add to the story. I get that they are trying to build a whole big culture out of the Breen, but you know, the more one knows, the harder it is to imagine alternatives and harder to imagine the horror of the Breen. I hated it.
but didn't michael & georgiou EAT mirror saru in S1?
"last episode they were trying to stop the DMC"..... go home Jessie you're drunk 😂
Jessie, your hair be cool.
I love this episode!
I've been finding these episodes of Discovery to be kind of boring. I generally really like Discovery but it seems like this season is just 1. go to location. 2. Some kind of fight happens 3. They get the next piece of the puzzle 4. Moll and Lok escape It's getting rather repetitive, plus there's not enough Tig Notaro.
I could definitely go for more Tig 🙌🏼🖖🏼. My understanding is, she’s filming a show of her own.
@@tlouiseallen9302 No excuses. 😄
This season feels like they are doing some budget shows, hopefully saving the budget for the finale.
To much tell and not enough show IMO. The best part of the episode for me was the conversation between Culber and Tilly.
I agree with Sean that the ISS Enterprise was a wasted opportunity.
Oh, that's a pleasant surprise. I thought there were only eight episodes this season, but I looked it up thanks to the mention of the "midpoint" and found out there are ten.
Did you wear it to the wedding?
This could have been a bigger episode if they continued the story of Mirror Spock and Mirror Pike (as a 2 part crossover story), instead the crew of ISS Enterprise already left the ship. Missed opportunity here. Sure there are some fight scenes and some tension of the ship not making it through the hole, but I think the story could have been better if they used the Mirror universe with mirror characters like in Season 1. The Season 1 mirror story in Discovery was so interesting! My opinion anyway, still what we got, was generally okay to advance the plot. The last episode in Discovery with the time bug was extremely good.
Mirror Pike and Mirror Spock sounds more like something for Strange New Worlds to do than DIS/DSC.
I see it as hiding in plain sight. The L'ak and Moll thing. You're being forced two different lives for two different people.
Heh, we really do need to find you someone tailorey that can fit your shoulder straps at least: in general, that always seems to happen but clasps can be moved. :) (And actually I really liked the backstory with the Breen. They could still be mysterious but not dependent really on the masks thing. But they didn't really spell it out either.)
(Also I really wish UA-cam had a playback speed option between .75 and normal. Periodically there's a co-incidence between someone enthusiastically-talking fast and pain pain making it just *that little bit* too hard to keep up. But, I missed the pendant reference too, though. Also thought the thing they did in the pre-episode 'Last seen on Discovery' was too cute by halfbecause of course my first assumption was that I missed an episode and went through Roku contortions to find out I had not and get back. :)
They do. You can set it to any number manually.
@@djkittycat Heh, just noticed the little 'Custom' word, thanks.
The cameos are coming lik
6:29 hey hey, former fascist turned revolutionary Spock!
Evil doesn't fit Jessie. Maybe that was obvious?
Jessie, those aren't Terran Monster Maroons, those are Starfleet Marine MMs. ;)
Why why why! The Breen were so cool being dangerous and mysterious. They have never taken the helmets off the Breen. Like they should never reveal where Yoda people are from. Discovery keeps discovering ways to ruin Star Trek 🤬🤬 it should have been cancel 2 seasons ago!
In our universe fascist chic rules but in the mirror universe it's a bit off the shoulder -seriouslt slipping 🙂
15:47 i thought Burnham ATE mirror Saru?
No, it was a different Kelpien.
Nothing happens in this episode.
“We’ve got eight minutes to live. Let’s have a five minute heart to heart conversation about our relationship.”
They could explore more of the interesting topics if they cut the boring action scenes with the silly power ranger fights and all the pew pews
I watch Star Trek to see the crew join forces to think out their way out of a problem, not brute force their way out of problems with guns and fists
I would replace all boring action scenes with classic conference room scenes.
16:06 perhaps the ISS Enterprise became a refugee ship in the fleeing from the Alliance? Spock could have set up such refugee ferrying during his revolution, the ISS Enterprise going from a symbol of oppression to a ship of liberators who fought the Terran Empire and brought about reform
Wow. A lot of people commenting here seem not to have watched DIS/DSC season 3 episodes Terra Firma, Parts 1 and 2.
@@thomashong2938 I thought those episodes took place in an alternate timeline mirror universe created by the Guardian of Forever and weren’t canon to everything else?
@@Cdr2002 The Guardian of Forever didn’t create that universe. He had Emperor Georgiou take the place of her counterpart. And then brought her back, with the other Georgiou dying in her place. The reference to Terran High Chancellor instead of Emperor means that Rebel Saru and the ISS Enterprise came from a parallel reality/timeline/universe to the one depicted in the Terra Firma two parter.
@@thomashong2938 the reference to a Terran High Chancellor more than likely refers to Spock’s position after ascending to “commander in chief” and instituting his reforms.
I don’t know if there’s an official say so, but from my research Memory Alpha at the very least treats the Terra Firma mirror universe as an alternate timeline to the mirror universe as depicted in TOS, DS9, Enterprise, and Discovery season 1.
@@Cdr2002 Yeah, you’re right. Didn’t read the dedication plaque when I posted earlier.
Fix your shoulder strap!!! 🤪
The Breen design …. is so boring.
The translucent design is cool, but obviously that much CGI is going to destroy the show's budget.
But yeah, just another generic human-with-face-makeup alien. Again.
When strange new worlds comes back they must introduce Gary Mitchell we have Kirk and Mitchell was Kirk best friend before Spock was even in the picture
Empire for the empire throne!
Not going to lie, I tried but Disco just not for me the entire cause of the Burn
and the last season i totally zoned out, I still watch the content you create on the show
because its good. If they do greenlight a Legacy show I just hope from Episode one they make sure the additional cast are given depth, time and stories that make them actually crew members, When they announced this was the final season far from celebrating
I just feel if they had focused more on the other cast members,.
I like L'ak and Mol now!
My only gripe is that I would have preferred the episode to take place on a different 23rd century Constitution-class Terran warship, since I can't help but nitpick that the model and sets used are for the 2259 version of the Enterprise, despite us already having seen the 2267 refit in "Mirror, Mirror," meaning that the ISS Enterprise later went on to have a "defit" to look like it did 8 years earlier.
The episode featuring a Terran warship is great, but it being the Enterprise neither added anything substantial to the episode and it not being the Enterprise wouldn't have changed the story in any meaningful way, and Mirror Saru (who I thought Georgiou fed to Burnham back in S1, but apparently not!) could have stolen any ship, so there was no reason for it to specifically be the Enterprise except for nostalgia points.
I look at it as this being the only set they really have available right now, this isn't like back in the 90s where they could borrow/swap sets between 3 different shows.
If you watched the SNW season 1 finale A Quality Of Mercy, you would know that the SNW Enterprise will never have a defit so it ends up looking like the TOS ship. The Mirror Saru who ends up a rebel leader was saved by Emperor Georgiou when she ended up in an alternate mirror universe in the season 3 episodes Terra Firma, Part 1 and Part 2 featuring the Guardian of Forever. Or Carl, as he prefers to be called.
@@dellytancyl524 I'm just saying they could have named the ship something else and avoided all that.
@@thomashong2938 I have watched both of those episodes and they were each in alternate timelines, and in that specific timeline from A Quality of Mercy, the Enterprise that was still under Pike's command was clearly just never refitted into the TOS appearance it had under Kirk. Also, the USS Enterprise from A Quality of Mercy and the ISS Enterprise from Mirror, Mirror are two totally separate ships. Also also, the alternate mirror universe Georgiou is sent to is stated to have simply been a test that did not change the flow of events in the real mirror universe, because that would have obviously created a paradox. I was merely pointing out that I thought that the Kelpian served to Burnham in S1 was Saru, which apparently it was not, after all.
But thanks for talking down to me, bud!
@@posindustries If the SNW Prime Enterprise never looks like it does in TOS, then why should its Mirror Universe counterpart?
We live in the Mirror Universe and the States is the Terran Empire, so have at it ;)
If there is a Terran Empire, it’s the Russian Federation not the United States. Agony booths sound like an invention that would be of interest to the Kremlin.
I haven't given this a ton of thought yet, but doesn't Discovery retcon the DS9 Mirror Universe episodes? For example, how does Kirk come to command the ISS Enterprise if Saru successfully led a rebellion during the point the timeline when Pike would have still been in command? Doesn't DS9 establish that Spock leads the rebellion that fells the Terran Empire? Or does Discovery introduce an alternate timeline in the alternate universe?
No, I don’t think so. I took it as this is AFTER Spock began to rule the empire. They mention how the ship was used to evacuate people who were sympathetic to the emperor's new way of thinking. I just assumed that was Spock.
There is more than one mirror universe.
@@loupetron Watch or rewatch the DIS/DSC season 3 episodes Terra Firma, Parts 1 and 2. The Emperor/High Chancellor who was assassinated for trying to reform the Terran Empire was Georgiou not Spock.
@@thomashong2938 Watch or rewatch the DS9 season 2 episode Crossover. The Emperor/High Chancellor who was assassinated for trying to reform the Terran Empire was Spock, not Georgiou.
@@posindustries Yeah, you’re right. Didn’t read the dedication plaque on the ISS Enterprise when I posted earlier.
This one was such a mess. I can't take Mol and Lok seriously whatsoever, the way they're being developed just doesn't work. I like the idea of revealing what the Breen are like, but the acting and story just feel wrong to me, I wish I could be more specific but I can't. I can't take Rayner seriously either. Felt similarly about... who was the dude last season? The eccentric scientist dude? No. As soon as he walked on screen, just no. Press the back button, send this character back to where they came. It's a shame too, because I'm sure they're both very nice dudes irl.
Btw you addressed this well in your video. I would just be a lot more harsh because for me, those things that you said were "a little weird" or the like were things that really really really really really didn't work.