David, regarding shooting technique, in my experience the thing with the greatest carryover to photography was actually my experience learning to shoot in the military. Everytime I'm thinking about the cues I got from drill sergeants: slowly and smoothly squeeze the trigger (shutter release) -let it surprise you when it goes off; fire rounds between breaths-not holding your breath but fire during the natural pause between an inhale or exhale, etc., and then finally i almost always use the same shooting positions to shoot a camera as i would to shoot a rifle-i love to brace against something whenever possible if i have a slower shutter whether it be standing, kneeling or prone.
At 1:35:03, the actual answer is: Yes, you can definitely crop a 50mm picture to look exactly the same as a 75mm picture taken from the same spot. The “compression effect” will be the same, provided you accurately pick the aperture (you will need to use a 50/1.3 lens to mach a 75/2, after cropping). Of course, optical aberrations will probably be more visible on the cropped shot, as it is taken with a wider aperture, but aberrations apart, the two pictures will look identical. In that sense, a very good 50/1.3 “contains” a 75/2, if you use a good sensor and don’t mind cropping ;-)
Totally agree, there is no difference to compression, only to depth of field. Far too many people get this wrong - surprised RedDotForum didn't get this correct. There are numerous examples of people testing this out and proving that the only difference (if the lenses and sensors are perfect) is to depth of field.
I do love these two hour talks and you guys do go to great lengths to share knowledge which is appreciated. Having purchased a ‘tonne’ of Leica lenses over the last 5/6 years, I do have one criticism... I feel you overlook that a lot of photographers (myself included) often shoot stopped down to 5.6/8 and at that point the difference between an old tele elmarit or summarit or even APO Cron really is barely tangible. Sure wide open there is a huge difference but when shooting a slightly older lens I feel I have two in one almost. Something that’s lower contrast, wide open with a bit of character and tack sharp stopped down 👌 plus there is something extra special about taking a camera and 4 tiny lenses with you which you struggle to do with the ultra fast modern designs.
Your comments of and adoration for the 75 Noct and 90 Lux are spot on! Thanks guys! I own both of them and personally my all-time favorite pairing is the 75 Noct on the M10-M. I shoot almost entirely B+W in my work, and I have 2 M10-Ms - one with the Noct and the other paired with the 50mm APO Cron. The 90 Lux lives most of the time on my SL2 for the ibis, along with the other lane of Peter Karbe’s genius, the 35mm and 50mm prime SL APOs.. You’ve covered this gear so well in this and other RDF videos, thank you, I learn something new each time I watch them (over and over...). My heart remains solidly with the M-primes on an array of M bodies mostly the M10-Ms and 246s, adapted to SL2, and occasionally on the older 240 - MP which I believe renders color better than the M10 models. As a guy you don’t need to convince or market the Leica-goodness, your videos are expert and contain a depth of history and mile-wide-mile-deep knowledge. I am inspired and more knowledgeable as a photographer and Leica-Lifer..
May I threadjack as we are one year past your original and very interesting comment? Do you prefer the 246 or M10M under normal daylight and non extreme ISO conditions?
I would prefer dedicated episodes for 35mm and 50mm respectively. I thoroughly enjoy the depth you guys bring to these discussions. I would hate to miss out on some of your knowledge due to you having to abbreviate the conversation for a combined segment.
Great as always, regardless of the video glitches. I would suggest dividing the 35-50 session into two separate sessions, or 2 sessions of both. In any case, I think much more time (as in 2 regular sessions) is needed with the amount of data and questions (and lenses) we have on 35-50 :-)
Great show. My guess is that you could probably stretch the 35-50mm content into several shows as there are so many areas to cover: 35 vs 50, lux vs cron vs everything else within 35, lux vs cron vs everything else within 50. It just seems like it’s a lot of ground to cover but you can’t go wrong. Keep up the great content.
At 1:35:25 you said that focal length affects compression. It does not, and in fact it's physically impossible. I'm surprised to hear this from you guys. Not that anybody is going to get hurt from making this mistake, but it has to be corrected. Think about it this way: if focal length affected compression, you wouldn't be able to take wide angle shots with a large format camera. You are of course correct about effective DOF. The wider the aperture is physically, the less the DOF. In any case I really like these videos. You can never get enough Leica talk. 😊👍
so little chat about the Noctilux ... in general, but I guess the cost makes them unpopular? Can we get more talk about the M50 Noctilux in the next segment??
Another great video! I was glad to see you mentioned the 75mm f2.5 Summarit. I use a second hand one on my digital CL via M to L adapter for travel. Really small size, I like the 112mm or so perspective and love the image quality. I would also prefer separate 35 and 50mm reviews, touching on some vintage lenses if you can.
In the advent of amazing sensor quality & sensitivity, the use of a simple 90mm f/2.8 is tantamount to owning a CHEAP Noctilux... Shallow Depth of Field, buttery smooth backgrounds (Bokeh), compact size & weight and medium format isolation/rendering/magic (i.e. A Hasselblad 'normal' lens is the 80mm focal length)...😍 - AND, use a 135mm and now you have the Large Format 4x5 rendering/magic !
Thanks for your thoughts about the 90 Elmarit 2.8 M. Iown one and thought about selling it since I bought the APO SL but OMG I can tel it’s razor sharp in the center and I definitively will not sell it... at least will wait again . Great video, missing some examples of photographs. You should prepare a folder per lens and share pictures in live don’t you?
Yeah, the 90 Elmarit is still one of my favorites. Sample pictures are a great idea, although we talk about a lot of different lenses during these livestreams, so the prep might be a challenge. Of course, you can always see tons of my photos with a variety of lenses and cameras in my in-depth reviews on reddotforum.com. For 90 Elmarit pics, you can check out my M10 review: www.reddotforum.com/content/2017/02/leica-m10-review-the-quintessential-digital-m/ my M246 Monochrom review (B&W only): www.reddotforum.com/content/2015/04/leica-m-monochrom-typ-246-review/. Also, I've got pics on Instagram at instagram.com/davidfarkasphotography
@@RedDotForum Thanks. I've had a look at your review. Very well done. Maybe one day I will get the chance to own an M10R... For now I play with my M8 or lumix S1 with M'adapter !
I own the 135/2.8 with goggles. Great lens for portrait!!! (+ !!!!!). There are also lenses with goggels (35 mm for M3). Ok it's heavy. But complete under rated lens for M2 to M6 plus modern digi M's. On digi M's of course with a vintage look... I use it often and wouldn't miss it.
About 1:35, No, the 135/2.8 was designed for the M2 so that it could use it's 90mm frame lines for the 135 where the M3 already had 135 frame lines. There was a 35.2 with goggles for the M3. The lens is stupid heavy, but it's actually a pretty good performer, if it's in good shape. Clean the goggles and try not to scratch it. I have one and don't use it much.
Enjoyed watching a number of your videos. One small correction to your 135 Elmarit segment: the 'goggles' do not enlarge the 135 framelines, the mount brings up the 90 mm frameline, and that is the view that gets magnified. It's an OK lens but awkward to use, I rarely use it but it is not worth seeing it. Wish I had not sold a 125 Tele-Elmar years ago. Jean-Michel (Canada)
love all the contents, I was wondering if you can choose just one lens for portrait and travel which one do you prefer, 75mm apo, 75 summilux v1 or v2? Thanks in advance
Trying to decide on a 90mm for travel. I like the f2 pre-asph #11136, but curious if the 2.8 #11807 would be a better option only because it’s shorter and lighter. Would also consider the 2.4/2.5. Anyone have thoughts?
Can I also ask how the 90/2 Summicron (the one immediately prior to the APO Asph one but which looks like the APO) compared to the Summarits and the 90/2.8 Elmarit Ms (latest model)? I am somewhat sensitive to weight and the OLD 90/2 was a beast. Is the previous 90/2 going to be a good general purpose 90 today? I don't recall you talking about this lens.
Yes, I use the latest version 90mm Elmarit-M, the one with the slide-out shade. I love the size, handling, focusing and image quality that I get with the lens. Sure, the 90mm Summilux is certainly the pinnacle of 90mm lens development at Leica, but I don't really need the extra speed, nor am I after the wide-open buttery bokeh look all the time. Mostly, I prefer the small size and weight of the Elmarit, and still find the lens to produce excellent quality.
Was reminded by your comments on the 135mm f/2.8 (w magnifer) that many of the 'vintage' telephoto lenses the Head and Focus mount easily unscrew from each other so the head could be mounted on an original Visoflex. These items were paired at the factory and carry identical serial numbers. It would be unlikely to get good performance from a head and focus mount which were not correctly paired.
You really don't need a visoflex on the 75mm Summilux it's fine with just the rangefinder. And it's waaaaay off the look of a Thambar. It is nice at 1.4 (plenty sharp), sharper at 2, very sharp at 2.8 and ridiculously sharp stopped down further. Beautiful muted colour palette. A legendary lens for good reason.
I agree, using my Lux 75 on M10 and M246 rangefinder. Lux 75 makes a huge difference (just like other legendary lenses) on perfect bokeh progressiveness that gives texture gradient, a strong depth cue in photography
Another great video. I love your knowledge and Leica geekyness! looking forward to the 35mm and 50mm. Why not do two separate sessions? Sweepstake winner was from London 10 miles from me! I guess I was close! :)
Boris, you are correct! The 75 APO is 1:7 and the 90 Macro is 1:6.7. The question should have been "The highest reproduction ratio outside of the 90 Macro" but we neglected to qualify it properly! Our apologies for the error.
Your criticism of the 90 Elmar triplet from the 1960s is a bit too harsh, in my view. The lens is actually pretty sharp from wide open, even on a M11M. It is not very contrasty, of course, but on a Monochrom this is sometimes a virtue, and nothing that an orange filter and a Heliopan screw-in lens hood can't address. Or combine with a green filter for some portrait fun. My favourite 90 on a Monochrom (while almost unusable on colour cameras....). Yes, of course, this is not the only 90 one should own, but given its low weight, diminutive size and affordable cost, this is a fun lens, so stop dissing on it, please 🙂.
Video @ 54:00 "you may need lens calibrated to the camera" - HUH ? - Though techs don't wish to get into something so subtle, Leica lenses are rarely off; they're SUPER inspected. If one is off, it's usually due to a past poor service (tampered with) or a traumatized lens (impact etc.). - Now the camera's RANGEFINDER ! ? - Trust me, there's so many more 'weak links' there to blame...
David, regarding shooting technique, in my experience the thing with the greatest carryover to photography was actually my experience learning to shoot in the military. Everytime I'm thinking about the cues I got from drill sergeants: slowly and smoothly squeeze the trigger (shutter release) -let it surprise you when it goes off; fire rounds between breaths-not holding your breath but fire during the natural pause between an inhale or exhale, etc., and then finally i almost always use the same shooting positions to shoot a camera as i would to shoot a rifle-i love to brace against something whenever possible if i have a slower shutter whether it be standing, kneeling or prone.
For sure. Very similar disciplines that benefit from steadiness.
41:34 As an Elmarit 90 owner I especially loved that portion of the discussion.
It is a jewel, and a relative bargain. I love it on the M-D and SL2-S.
hahahahaha I just ran into the same thing and couldnt agree more!
I just finished watching this episode - the first one I haven't been able to see live. Super informative as usual, great job guys!
Glad you enjoyed it!
At 1:35:03, the actual answer is: Yes, you can definitely crop a 50mm picture to look exactly the same as a 75mm picture taken from the same spot. The “compression effect” will be the same, provided you accurately pick the aperture (you will need to use a 50/1.3 lens to mach a 75/2, after cropping). Of course, optical aberrations will probably be more visible on the cropped shot, as it is taken with a wider aperture, but aberrations apart, the two pictures will look identical.
In that sense, a very good 50/1.3 “contains” a 75/2, if you use a good sensor and don’t mind cropping ;-)
Totally agree, there is no difference to compression, only to depth of field. Far too many people get this wrong - surprised RedDotForum didn't get this correct. There are numerous examples of people testing this out and proving that the only difference (if the lenses and sensors are perfect) is to depth of field.
@@stefansmuts8882And they’ve gotten this wrong repeatedly, too. I like these guys but ack, that does bother me.
Great content! Thanks guys! Watching over here in Switzerland!
Thanks for watching!
Same, gruess us Bärn✌🏽
I do love these two hour talks and you guys do go to great lengths to share knowledge which is appreciated. Having purchased a ‘tonne’ of Leica lenses over the last 5/6 years, I do have one criticism...
I feel you overlook that a lot of photographers (myself included) often shoot stopped down to 5.6/8 and at that point the difference between an old tele elmarit or summarit or even APO Cron really is barely tangible. Sure wide open there is a huge difference but when shooting a slightly older lens I feel I have two in one almost. Something that’s lower contrast, wide open with a bit of character and tack sharp stopped down 👌 plus there is something extra special about taking a camera and 4 tiny lenses with you which you struggle to do with the ultra fast modern designs.
Your comments of and adoration for the 75 Noct and 90 Lux are spot on! Thanks guys! I own both of them and personally my all-time favorite pairing is the 75 Noct on the M10-M. I shoot almost entirely B+W in my work, and I have 2 M10-Ms - one with the Noct and the other paired with the 50mm APO Cron. The 90 Lux lives most of the time on my SL2 for the ibis, along with the other lane of Peter Karbe’s genius, the 35mm and 50mm prime SL APOs.. You’ve covered this gear so well in this and other RDF videos, thank you, I learn something new each time I watch them (over and over...). My heart remains solidly with the M-primes on an array of M bodies mostly the M10-Ms and 246s, adapted to SL2, and occasionally on the older 240 - MP which I believe renders color better than the M10 models. As a guy you don’t need to convince or market the Leica-goodness, your videos are expert and contain a depth of history and mile-wide-mile-deep knowledge. I am inspired and more knowledgeable as a photographer and Leica-Lifer..
May I threadjack as we are one year past your original and very interesting comment? Do you prefer the 246 or M10M under normal daylight and non extreme ISO conditions?
I would prefer dedicated episodes for 35mm and 50mm respectively. I thoroughly enjoy the depth you guys bring to these discussions. I would hate to miss out on some of your knowledge due to you having to abbreviate the conversation for a combined segment.
59:58 Summilux-M 75mm content yaaassss
I haven’t seen any discussion about the 90mm Summicron pre-asph. I love this lens!
Great as always, regardless of the video glitches.
I would suggest dividing the 35-50 session into two separate sessions, or 2 sessions of both. In any case, I think much more time (as in 2 regular sessions) is needed with the amount of data and questions (and lenses) we have on 35-50 :-)
Great show. My guess is that you could probably stretch the 35-50mm content into several shows as there are so many areas to cover: 35 vs 50, lux vs cron vs everything else within 35, lux vs cron vs everything else within 50. It just seems like it’s a lot of ground to cover but you can’t go wrong. Keep up the great content.
Another fabulous and very informative presentation
So nice of you
At 1:35:25 you said that focal length affects compression. It does not, and in fact it's physically impossible. I'm surprised to hear this from you guys. Not that anybody is going to get hurt from making this mistake, but it has to be corrected. Think about it this way: if focal length affected compression, you wouldn't be able to take wide angle shots with a large format camera.
You are of course correct about effective DOF. The wider the aperture is physically, the less the DOF.
In any case I really like these videos. You can never get enough Leica talk. 😊👍
Thank you guys for another great presentation. I again picked up some very useful information and some operating hints.
Glad it was helpful!
so little chat about the Noctilux ... in general, but I guess the cost makes them unpopular? Can we get more talk about the M50 Noctilux in the next segment??
Another great video! I was glad to see you mentioned the 75mm f2.5 Summarit. I use a second hand one on my digital CL via M to L adapter for travel. Really small size, I like the 112mm or so perspective and love the image quality. I would also prefer separate 35 and 50mm reviews, touching on some vintage lenses if you can.
The Summarits are highly underrated for sure.
I SO regret selling my 90 Elmarit-M. Sigh.
Never too late to get another one.
RedDotForum I’m looking! Alternatively, APO Summicron-M 75.
RedDotForum just scored an Elmarit 90. Thanks for the push, guys!
In the advent of amazing sensor quality & sensitivity, the use of a simple 90mm f/2.8 is tantamount to owning a CHEAP Noctilux...
Shallow Depth of Field, buttery smooth backgrounds (Bokeh), compact size & weight and medium format isolation/rendering/magic (i.e. A Hasselblad 'normal'
lens is the 80mm focal length)...😍 - AND, use a 135mm and now you have the Large Format 4x5 rendering/magic !
Thanks for your thoughts about the 90 Elmarit 2.8 M. Iown one and thought about selling it since I bought the APO SL but OMG I can tel it’s razor sharp in the center and I definitively will not sell it... at least will wait again . Great video, missing some examples of photographs. You should prepare a folder per lens and share pictures in live don’t you?
Yeah, the 90 Elmarit is still one of my favorites. Sample pictures are a great idea, although we talk about a lot of different lenses during these livestreams, so the prep might be a challenge. Of course, you can always see tons of my photos with a variety of lenses and cameras in my in-depth reviews on reddotforum.com. For 90 Elmarit pics, you can check out my M10 review: www.reddotforum.com/content/2017/02/leica-m10-review-the-quintessential-digital-m/ my M246 Monochrom review (B&W only): www.reddotforum.com/content/2015/04/leica-m-monochrom-typ-246-review/. Also, I've got pics on Instagram at instagram.com/davidfarkasphotography
@@RedDotForum Thanks. I've had a look at your review. Very well done. Maybe one day I will get the chance to own an M10R... For now I play with my M8 or lumix S1 with M'adapter !
I own the 135/2.8 with goggles. Great lens for portrait!!! (+ !!!!!).
There are also lenses with goggels (35 mm for M3). Ok it's heavy. But complete under rated lens for M2 to M6 plus modern digi M's. On digi M's of course with a vintage look...
I use it often and wouldn't miss it.
I Have the 135mm f/2.8 and it is sharp and lots of contrast.
Great videos! Very informative and helpful to navigate the world of Leica.
Glad it was helpful!
Excellent episode...again. Thanks for doing this!
Our pleasure!
You did not mention the 90 mm f2.0 Sumicron 😊
About 1:35, No, the 135/2.8 was designed for the M2 so that it could use it's 90mm frame lines for the 135 where the M3 already had 135 frame lines. There was a 35.2 with goggles for the M3. The lens is stupid heavy, but it's actually a pretty good performer, if it's in good shape. Clean the goggles and try not to scratch it. I have one and don't use it much.
Enjoyed watching a number of your videos. One small correction to your 135 Elmarit segment: the 'goggles' do not enlarge the 135 framelines, the mount brings up the 90 mm frameline, and that is the view that gets magnified. It's an OK lens but awkward to use, I rarely use it but it is not worth seeing it. Wish I had not sold a 125 Tele-Elmar years ago. Jean-Michel (Canada)
love all the contents, I was wondering if you can choose just one lens for portrait and travel which one do you prefer, 75mm apo, 75 summilux v1 or v2? Thanks in advance
I'd lean towards the 75mm APO. Great balance of performance, look, and physical size. Lovely for portraits and easy to carry.
Trying to decide on a 90mm for travel. I like the f2 pre-asph #11136, but curious if the 2.8 #11807 would be a better option only because it’s shorter and lighter. Would also consider the 2.4/2.5. Anyone have thoughts?
Can I also ask how the 90/2 Summicron (the one immediately prior to the APO Asph one but which looks like the APO) compared to the Summarits and the 90/2.8 Elmarit Ms (latest model)? I am somewhat sensitive to weight and the OLD 90/2 was a beast. Is the previous 90/2 going to be a good general purpose 90 today? I don't recall you talking about this lens.
Between the 2 noctis which is better in terms of optical performance? The 50 or 75? Although the 75 is newer does it follow that newer is better?
I think they should make a 75 Noctilux-SL and I know they can do it for less than what the M version used to cost. I'll buy it if they price it right.
David, you personally use the 90mm Elmarit - M, am I correct? Which version, and why not the Summilux?
Yes, I use the latest version 90mm Elmarit-M, the one with the slide-out shade. I love the size, handling, focusing and image quality that I get with the lens. Sure, the 90mm Summilux is certainly the pinnacle of 90mm lens development at Leica, but I don't really need the extra speed, nor am I after the wide-open buttery bokeh look all the time. Mostly, I prefer the small size and weight of the Elmarit, and still find the lens to produce excellent quality.
RedDotForum Thanks David, how do you feel about the Summarit vs your Elmarit?
Is the 75 Summarit 2.4 worth it? Despite being discontinued
Absolutely. We love the Summarit 2.4 lenses.
@@RedDotForum thank you!
Was reminded by your comments on the 135mm f/2.8 (w magnifer) that many of the 'vintage' telephoto lenses the Head and Focus mount easily unscrew from each other so the head could be mounted on an original Visoflex. These items were paired at the factory and carry identical serial numbers. It would be unlikely to get good performance from a head and focus mount which were not correctly paired.
You really don't need a visoflex on the 75mm Summilux it's fine with just the rangefinder. And it's waaaaay off the look of a Thambar. It is nice at 1.4 (plenty sharp), sharper at 2, very sharp at 2.8 and ridiculously sharp stopped down further. Beautiful muted colour palette. A legendary lens for good reason.
I agree, using my Lux 75 on M10 and M246 rangefinder. Lux 75 makes a huge difference (just like other legendary lenses) on perfect bokeh progressiveness that gives texture gradient, a strong depth cue in photography
Another great video. I love your knowledge and Leica geekyness! looking forward to the 35mm and 50mm. Why not do two separate sessions? Sweepstake winner was from London 10 miles from me! I guess I was close! :)
it could have been better if they do have sample shots of what they are talking about
I think the leica macro-elmar-m 90mm f/4 has the highest reproduction ratio even without the closeup adapter...
Boris, you are correct! The 75 APO is 1:7 and the 90 Macro is 1:6.7. The question should have been "The highest reproduction ratio outside of the 90 Macro" but we neglected to qualify it properly! Our apologies for the error.
@@jlehrer1890 Thank you so much for the great video nonetheless!
I would prefer two separate shows for 35mm and 50mm. Thanks!
Noted!
Your criticism of the 90 Elmar triplet from the 1960s is a bit too harsh, in my view. The lens is actually pretty sharp from wide open, even on a M11M. It is not very contrasty, of course, but on a Monochrom this is sometimes a virtue, and nothing that an orange filter and a Heliopan screw-in lens hood can't address. Or combine with a green filter for some portrait fun. My favourite 90 on a Monochrom (while almost unusable on colour cameras....). Yes, of course, this is not the only 90 one should own, but given its low weight, diminutive size and affordable cost, this is a fun lens, so stop dissing on it, please 🙂.
what do you think of using the 50mm lenses?
We dedicated an entire episode to 50mm M lenses. Check it out here: ua-cam.com/video/ZDFaVRc_7_I/v-deo.html
Just 35 and just 50'
George Kowalski yeah. There are so many examples in each category that we need Josh and David to talk about them all :)
I think you should separate 35 & 50 into 2 diff shows. thanks guys
Video @ 54:00 "you may need lens calibrated to the camera" - HUH ? - Though techs don't wish to get into something so subtle, Leica lenses are rarely off; they're SUPER inspected. If one is off, it's usually due to a past poor service (tampered with) or a traumatized lens (impact etc.). - Now the camera's RANGEFINDER ! ? - Trust me, there's so many more 'weak links' there to blame...