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Red Dot Forum Camera Talk: Wide-Angle Leica M Lenses
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- Опубліковано 16 сер 2024
- On this episode, we're taking a deep dive into wide angle Leica M lenses. From the vintage 21 Super-Angulon to the modern 18mm Super-Elmar and exotic 28mm Summulix-M ASPH we'll discuss all the available Leica M lens options wider than 35mm.
Timestamps:
==================
0:00 Welcome
2:57 How do you decide between a 21mm and a 24mm lens?
7:30 Is the Q2 a viable alternative to the 28mm Summilux-M?
12:33 Creative pitfalls to watch out for when using a wide angle lens
21:03 16-18-21mm Wide-Angle-Tri-Elmar
30:36 How does two WATE perform on the M10 Monochrom and is there more than one version?
32:30 Which wide angle lens has less wide open vignetting and what can I do to mitigate?
35:32 Difference between the 28mm Summilux and the Elmarit when stopped down to f/5.6, 8 or 11 for zone focusing?
40:53 Differences between the first and second versions of the 28mm Summicron and 28mm Elmarit, particularly on an SL or SL2?
48:20 How would you compare a Summilux with an equivalent Summicron lens?
53:50 Why no Noctilux version of wide-angle lenses?
55:47 What is the most compact 24mm possible that will still pair well with the M10M for wall size prints?
59:14 How come the Summilux only stops down to 1f/6 whereas the Elmarit stops down to f/22?
1:01:33 Is there a round lens hood available for the Summilux 28mm without effecting image quality?
1:02:10 Pros and cons of using a hood
1:04:21 Please tell us about the Summicron 28mm?
1:08:08 Does the 21mm Super-Elmar make sense on the digital CL?
1:09:08 Is the Leica Super-Angulon a good option for the M10?
1:10:28 How can a buyer tell which version of a lens is offered for sale?
1:13:09 Can you get a 1984 vintage Elmarit 21mm 6-bit coded?
1:15:16 Is there enough difference between a 28mm and 35mm to warrant owning both focal lengths?
1:20:15 21mm vs. 24mm for B&W landscape photography?
1:22:46 What happens when mounting a 6-bit coded lens on the SL?
1:24:28 18mm Super-Elmar-M lens
1:31:20 Which lens for astrophotography?
1:33:40 How variable is the focus ring stiffness between lenses?
1:37:28 18mm vs. WATE
1:42:35 What is your favorite wide angle?
1:44:23 Does the 21mm f/1.4 perform the same on the M10 and the SL2?
1:47:00 Why did Leica discontinue some of the wide-angle lenses?
1:49:00 Is using a 28mm lens doable without referencing the framelines on a film body by using the entire viewfinder window?
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Really appreciate the chapter marks on the video makes it very easy to come back to the video for reference!
This talk show is just awesome. I rather watch 2 hours of mumbo jumbo on Leica gear vs some pop culture TV show on HBO/Showtime. What a great way to relax post-dinner. Yes, I am a nerd.
Thanks so much!
Just watching this for the first time and want to reiterate how awesome the WATE is. I used it with an M11 on the Canadian-side Niagara Falls tour boat. There was no way in hell I was changing lenses, and those two handled things like a champ.
Loving these Camera Talks . There is a special ‘Something’ about Leica lenses that pulls us in, even though I have no idea about the science and engineering behind them.
Watched this video a couple months after the fact. I have a few wide angles: the WATE, 21 Lux, and the little Summaron 28. The main reason I watched it, besides wanting to see your dog, is my Summaron. I like what it does but it's a one trick pony making 28 a prominent gap in my lens kit and I watched mostly for help deciding how to fill that gap. All the praise you two heaped on the Summilux made the decision very easy. Because of all the obvious effort that went into preparing that presentation, I'll order it from Miami and hope you guys get fat commissions. Thank you for the help
Nice. Much appreciated. You can't go wrong with the 28 Lux.
You guys are amazing. Thank you so much for the great content you release fortnightly. It’s invaluable !!
Our pleasure!
I'm getting hyped on the 28mm summilux
I have to stop watching these videos. Every time I watch one, I have to buy another lens!
LOL
Haha.....every time I see one of these videos ..... I buy a camera..
😂 it’s called GAS and I suffer from it too.
I bought a 15mm lens for one reason: Shooting in the ultra narrow alleys in Hanoi and Saigon, using the distortion as an element im my pictures. Incredibly sharp lens: Voigtländer 15mm/4.5 III. Any 24mm would have been like a tele lens. Used it with M240 with live view. Besides: Great cam talk!
You answered many of my concerns. Thank you for doing you forum so well.
Well, David Farkas and Lloyd Chambers, together, convinced me to try a 24mm Elmar-M ASPH, acquired pre-owned, through the evil bay. I took delivery today, and shall see how things go. Thanks for this presentation.
I am really liking this Elmar-M 24mm f/2.8 ASPH. I did not use 24mm, much, with several zoom lenses, on full-36x24mm-frame DSLRs, but, with a Leica M camera, 24mm is working, for me. (I had tended to shoot at 28mm to 35mm, with DSLRs.) Interestingly, I was relatively uninterested in using a 50mm lens, until I tried a Summilux-M 50mm ASPH, on demo M cameras, at a Leica dealer. That specific pre-owned Summilux-M 50mm ASPH became the major reason I added the Leica M system.
OMG!! 😲 Million dollar table! 😁
That’s an expensive table with 2 million dollars of lenses on top
You didn’t mention the 24mm Elmarit except in passing. Those 2 24mm options would be an interesting discussion.
Bummer: Match Tech doesn’t have a replacement cap for the 21SEM and 24 Elmar, both #14212, but eBay has many listed at $30-35 usd.
Got my hands in a 28mm summicron safari. Looks great and has no inscription in the front, but most importantly it has an integrated circular shade which is amazing to keep it small
Great video as usual
Very informative providing well over an hour or two of entertainment
Much appreciated!
Thank you so much for this great episode guys. I am a M10M user and I reserved the 24mm f1.4 and the 28mm Summaron and was cooking to purchase. But thank God I watched this ahead of that. Post listening to this, I completely switched the purchase and now waiting for the 28mm f1.4 and the 24mm Elmar to arrive :)
Both are great choices. But you might find the 24 and 28 a little close in focal length. Maybe consider going for the 21mm Super-Elmar instead of the 24mm. Also a really fantastic wide angle.
RedDotForum thank you for this valuable suggestion 🙏🏼
Gentleman, you keep upping the bar with each new episode. Bravo !
Thanks!
So happy to retrieve you guys!! Thank you so much for those talks. Please keep them coming :-)
More to come! Stay tuned.
Message of the day for me "RedDotForum ist jetzt live: Red Dot Forum Camera Talk: Wide-Angle Leica M Lenses". Thank you so much for your "Talks" Although, due to Josh`s comment i just ordered one of the last Summarit-M 50mm f2.4 😀Regards, Harald from Wiesbaden/Germany ( just 80 km from Wetzlar)
Now I have to see what he says about the Summarit-M 50mm f2.4.
@@tamilhoward9708 Video covering the M Monochrom at 1:19:20
With you on the 24 Elmar!
For sure. It's a brilliant, capable and compact wide angle lens. Never letting go of mine!
@@RedDotForumI thought the Elmarit was the keeper?
lots of options indeed and opinions.... it helps to really describe the different lenses and why..... but it's so hard to decide bc if you really love the wide angle, a 21mm could be amazing .....i struggle with jumping to the 35 via the 28mm because i have both perhaps im decision overwhelmed .....
I’m expectant. I’ve wanted and needed this… thanks guys!
Hiya just noticed at 1:04 the caption on the time line is for a Summicron 38mm where it should be a Leica Summaron-M 28mm f/5.6
I never cared for the 28mm gocal length. My go to focal length is 21 mm suplemented by a 25 and 50. 👍🌟🌟🌟
Yes. Great Daytona, Josh.
Please next 35 and 50 mm ☺️👍🏻📷
they are going to save the best until last, I think.
Not just that. We need time to gather all the lenses!
one thing about the Noctilux design is it's inherent inability to focus well on an optical rangefinder camera, as the aperture is so big, the corresponding D.O.F. is 1/4" or less, so makes it very taxing on the user who doesn't have an electronic viewfinder, live-view, or otherwise to aid focusing the lens wide open, so the market for one will be quite niece indeed. and having a wide lens puts added effort to this due to distortion, image shape and other factors, making it an affair similar to using a large format camera, but with that, you have exquisite control, and vision of any movements you apply.
Again, have you ever USED a Leica M? I think not...
I’ve been binge watching these shows for the last couple of weeks, and even rewatched some of them, highly appreciated guys! I have a question: David mentioned in the early part of the show that the Q2 Summilux lens has little distortion. I don’t think that’s true, it distorts quite heavily if I look at the uncorrected raw files. If you just use the SOOC jpegs you won’t notice, because the lens distortion is corrected in camera. I saw another comment saying that for this reason the Q2 can never be as sharp in the corners as a ‘regular’ Summilux 28 because it looses detail due to heavy lens distortion/correction. Any thoughts on this? Thanks!
Missed the stream, but I love catching up on your guys’ videos. Any thoughts on the discontinuation of the 24mm Summilux-M and how this may effect the M 0.8 lineup?
Leica Camera and Leitz Cine are two different companies. While the 24 Lux is discontinued in the M photo lens lineup, it may still continue as an M0.8 cine lens.
Does 6 bit coding for the WATE eliminate selecting focal length in lens profile manually when focal length is being changed on the lens? If there’s no electronic connection between lens and camera body, how will the camera know which of the 3 focal length was used without also selecting it manually, which means 6 bit coding on WATE and MATE superfluous?
My black 35 Summilux (Canada) has a serial number starting 2222 and a hood which accomodates series VII filters. Yet It also has an old-style infinity lock. Are there many like this?
Fantastic series, Gentlemen. I have a Q and am looking to make the move to a ‘system’. I am inclined towards the M but wished to hear your pros/cons (at a high level, recognizing the breadth of my question) of the the SL2 system by comparison. If this has been asked and answered please just point me towards the relevant review - written or live. With thanks.
Try an SL (601) with adapted M-lenses if you can. It is bulky and a far more technically capable camera than the rangefinders, but with 24MP. Unless you need 47MP, the SL2 is three times the price of a pre-owned SL.
currently using the 50 summilux amazing lens
Stay tuned for our discussion on 50mm M lenses in a few weeks!
also you forgot to say in the question of wide angle lens problems, the rangefinder focusing only "couples" to the 28 - 90 mm focus range, aka the frame-lines in the viewfinder and the 0.8 x / 0.72 x magnification of the focus patch, so extra viewing aids for composition and focusing become essential the more wide you go; just like the telephoto lenses, the rangefinder design is ONLY straightforward for the 35 & 50 mm focal length lenses, as this is an inherent trait of the design.
Have you EVER used a Leica M?
Do you guys think, the summilux 21 at f/8 is near good as the SEM 21 at f/8 for landscapes? Only compared for optical performance, i don´t use filters.
A wide angle Noctilux on M is physically impossible on a M, because of the way a rangefinder system works. Two light paths go into the viewfinder and rangefinder window have to cross each other on the subject to get correct focus. A large front element will block these two light paths at certain distance (close-up) and make focusing impossible.
18mm Super Elmar a beautiful lens.
It sure is!
What if a cheaper M body with not range finder, using Q style body, m mount, EVF / body display to forces ?
Why did Leica discontinue the 24mm elmar? I was so disappointed to find that out. Or...do they have something new replacing it?
Does the 28mm f5.6 come with a pair strap lugs for the proud owner to wear it around his neck? Much lighter than wearing it with a M body attached.
WATE, WATE, WATE… That 16-18-21 broke my heart. I had so much hope for it; with that range it sounded so great on paper, but NO… This lens has huge, weird, mustache-shaped distortions that no Photoshop, DXO, or any other software that I know of can fix. Maybe if one is in Niagara Falls [as a previous commenter wrote], or in some forest, or anywhere where straight lines don’t matter, maybe then would this be worth the while. Otherwise, particularly in any scenario with architecture on it, this lens is sinful. Even worse when one thinks of the cheaper and more precise alternatives from everyone else [Fuji, Nikon, Canon, Sigma, Zeiss, etc.]. I guess if one is strictly bound within the Leica M ecosystem, certainly the WATE is the widest alternative, but then again those really wide needs are much better satisfied by other systems with other combos. As an architect who loves to travel I felt somewhat betrayed by this lens [used then on my M-10R and M-7]. I now get by with the Voigtlander 15 on my current M-11. I’ve also tried the Zeiss 15 which is almost as good as the Voigtlander but twice as expensive, and bigger. If anyone’s curious I can share comparison pics between the WATE[16-18-21] on my M-10 against my Fuji X-Pro with an equivalent Fuji wide angle. The cheaper Fuji shows almost no distortion, and the little distortion gets easily corrected on software, whereas the WATE seems to melt the image. All to say that for the $6K to $8K budget one is way better off with these less expensive options, and save the money for the Leica 21 / 1.4., or maybe better, the Leica 18mm. My two cents, so you can save many dollars…
I read the 21 f3.4 is a very sharp lens. Maybe one of the sharpest wide angle Leica lenses. How do you think it will perform on the SL2?
That Tri Elmar can do macro because of 0.3m? Why leica stop producing them?
Is it nice to just get 2 lenses 16-18-21 and 28-35-50 to do everything?
Question: I have the 28mm 1.4 Summilux and I love it, but the lens has a little play in what I think is the lens group. It is not where the lens meets the camera. I bought it new roughly 4 months ago and seem to remember it being like this from the beginning. Is this something to be concerned with in your opinion? What is considered normal? Image quality in my opinion seems superb. My 35 Summilux does not do this, so I am just asking for an opinion from someone who has handled a lot of lenses. TY in advance.
How did that issue play out?
@@magiccarpetrider4594 I sent it in and they tightened it for me. It had too much play in it. Perfect now
Does 24mm a lot wider than 28mm? If you get q only then how you shoot tight indoor?
You guys are the best 👍🏻 would you readers, buy am Leica M Elmar 24mm 3.8 or the Elmarit 2.8 for a Leica 10 Monochrome?
Thank Tim
Elmar it is a legendary sharp lens. But you lose speed and that slight bokeh. I went with summilux and never looked back but the elmar is super sharp 🥲
Question: David refers to 6-bit coding actively correcting images on the SL (Typ 601). This is happening in conjuction with the Leica L to M adapter. If the correct lens profile is chosen in camera, are those same corrections being applied to a DNG and/or JPG (when using an aftermarket adapter)?
Yes. As long as there is a lens selected in the menu, the same corrections will be applied to both DNG and JPG. The 6-bit code reader in the Leica adapter just makes it automatic.
Be so good to have some sort of level detection built in the Visoflex.
On an M10-P or M10 Monochrom there is a virtual horizon option that you can view in the Visoflex 020. Unfortunately, this isn't available on a standard M10.
@@RedDotForum Thanks, I have a M10-D.
Is there going to be sub “part” on external viewfinders for wide lenses?
I have a M-10 monochrom with a Summilux-M 35mm f/1.4 and a Q2 and I'm looking for a wide-angle. I would really appreciate your insightful advice on what I should get. Thanks in advance.
this kit is OP
Great video!
Glad you enjoyed it
I'm having a hard time choosing between the 21mm elmar asph and the 24mm elmar asph. I intend to use them as my wide angle lens for landscapes. I currently have the 35 cron and 50 lux and I will most likely get the 28 2.8 in the future. Which one should I choose?
Both are fantastic lenses. If you plan on using a 28mm, I'd suggest skipping a focal length and going for the 21mm. If you just intend to carry 35mm as your main lens, either the 21 or 24 would work great. Really, you can't go wrong here.
When did manufacturing begin for “digital” era Leica lenses?
Technically, the first M lenses designed for digital cameras came out starting in 2006, the 28mm Elmarti-M ASPH and the Wide-Angle-Tri-Elmar. But, I'd say the modern-era lenses started in the late 1990's with the advent of the first ASPH lenses like the 35mm Summicron-M ASPH and 90mm APO-Summicron-M.
Does William Snyder, whom you have mentioned before, still use a rangefinder and 21mm lens? Impressive body of work, for sure.
William doesn't actively shoot PJ as much these days. He left the Dallas Morning News several years ago as Director of Photography, and currently chairs the photojournalism program at RIT's school of Photographic Arts and Sciences. In his free time, he tours with The Who as their long-time photographer. He just published a coffee table book in collaboration with them this past year: Join Together (With the Band) amzn.to/2AEJB0b
FYI. Your "long answers" are the best answers because they feel more like a shared conversation than a Trump press conference. It's where you share your knowledge and passion
Thanks!
Does the universal wide-angle finder offer something that the Visioflex viewfinder doesn't on a digital M? The universal finder is more expensive.
The Universal Wide Angle Finder offers a pure optical viewfinder experience. It's quite a complicated piece of engineering, with zoomed positions for 16, 18, 21, 24, and 28mm as well as incorporating parallax correction.
What non-leica camera body works best for M mount lenses? I travel a lot (normally) and want a modern digital camera, with too many features, that I can bring on trips with me and still use my M lenses without compromising IQ too much.
We actually don't know of any non-Leica camera options that work well with wide angle M lenses. Most mirrorless systems simply aren't designed for the high-incident angle light rays from wide angle M lenses. Your best option would be a used SL601 for full frame without breaking the bank or a CL if you don't mind a cropped sensor. If budget isn't a concern, go for an SL2. Amazing with M lenses - IBIS, 5.6MP EVF, 47MP, weather sealing, access to SL glass, etc.
using a Breakthrough 46mm X4ND filter on the following lenses, 21 super elmar, 90 summarait and 50 summilux will I be able to use the lens hood with the nd filter ? on a 35 sum micron with a 39 to 46 step up ring I assume I won't be able to use the lens hood, correct? thanks Harvey
With the 21 SE, 90 Summarit and 50 Lux, you can use an E46 filter and the hoods together. With the 35 Cron, no you won't be able to use the E46 filter and step ring with a hood. If you get a native E39, then it would work with the hood as well.
@@RedDotForum Hi, thanks for your prompt response, your answer related to using the Leica E46 so as to have the ability to use it with the hood on except the 35 Cron. 3 questions, first does the same apply if using the Breakthrough X4ND or is the ring too thick to use with the hood on and secondly which is the better choice Leica or Breakthrough for truer color rendition and overall IQ. Lastly are there Leica step up rings or do I use another brand of 39 to 46 so I can use with the 35 Cron. Harvey
Does Leica have plans to make zoom M lenses? Also can you do a talk on R lenses as well? As it is being used on Leica M and SL.
The Wide-Angle-Tri-Elmar-M is technically a zoom as it can be used anywhere in the focal range of 16-21mm. This is only possible because the foal length coverage falls outside of the frame line coverage. Normal zooms aren't practical on M cameras due to the requirements of bringing up correct frame lines with lens mount cams and rangefinder focusing. So, no, we don't think there are any zoom lenses in the pipeline for the M system.
We'll certainly consider an R lens episode. Thanks for the feedback.
the ultimate Leica "wide" lens is the Noctilux .95 50mm ... If only it didn't cost $12700! 😂. is 50mm wide?
Ive watched this many times! 10:47 Is the 28 summilux sharper than the summicron? I believe the graphics show the opposite. Maybe I still don't know how to read them 😝
Yes, the 28mm Summilux is the sharpest 28mm M lens available. The Cron is great, but the Lux definitely pulls ahead optically.
@@RedDotForum I just traded the Cron for the Lux. I hope that extra stop of light and image quality makes up for the viewfinder blockage, and price :) Thanks! I really enjoyed all these videos. Spent hours listening to you guys.
Contemplating to switch my 35mm Summilux M 1.4 FLE to 28mm Summilux M 1.4, since acquiring the 50 mm Summicron AA.
Is the 28mm optically as good as the 35mm ? I have learned that the 28mm has "purple fringing".
The 28mm Summilux is one of Leica's best wide angle lenses and probably the best of the Summilux range. We both love the 35 Lux, but technically, the 28 is bit better. If you are looking for something wider than your 35, you'll be extremely happy with the 28 Lux. I haven't seen purple fringing (CA) on the 28, but if you do experience some, it takes one click to remove in Lightroom.
"don't buy a lens, just buy this" lmaoooo 1:22:04
Josh does love the Universasl Wide-Angle Finder!
How is the 28summicron v2 on the SL2?
The v2 28mm Cron is excellent on the SL2.
How does the 24 elmar-m and 18/3.8 SE performance differ on the M10 vs SL2?
Both of these lenses perform quite well on the SL2. The difference is more ergonomics than absolute performance.
one tip, you should have called this the SUPER wide-angle lenses, as the 35 mm is not covered, BUT is a wide angle lens.
No, it’s not.
This is an interminable video with not a lot of info. It is also not fully researched, so has a LOT of errors. It reminds me a lot of a majority of used car salesmen, and unfortunatley I don't mean that in any good way. Shape up guys! The correct information is out there.
y -y
Can't say the Z word? 🤣🤣🤣
I've noticed these videos seem to go on an interminable length of time. I would suggest that some form of sweet release from this kind of thing is in order. I do not support euthanasia for people, but for video policies that make nearly 2 hours of video I am willing to pay for the bullets. At least provide a timeline by topic. This must stop, who but an addict could spend such time on such a narrow topic as ONE manufacture and their range of cameras etc. for hours on end.; AND more than on ONE video? It is an abuse of bandwidth worse than porn. I like Leica, I like a lot about them, but this thing is too damn long. You will not see many comments like mine because you have killed off that much much much wider audience, and potential sales from them because they have to run for the door.
I both agree and disagree. 2 hours is insane. Sometimes I don’t have time to watch a 13-minute-long video. But this is a conversation on all things Leica, 2 hours per subject. How would you address so many questions where many probably don’t even make it to the live broadcast. Well, two things to point out: 1) live broadcast makes things engaging, there are people that actually tune in, and thanks to direct chat it becomes more interactive so you involve the audience more - time flies, 2) since it’s a talk the guys do side-track a lot both for the worse and for the better. I loved the episode on analog M for example, and the guys clearly have an extensive level of knowledge, but I could pull my hair out thanks to some questions that are so generic and boring that I find myself fast-forwarding (I can’t ever watch this live anyway), and which could easily be addressed in a non-Leica discussion, e.g. basic photography, Lightroom, etc. I wonder then if the better quality questions could be pre-selected. But then you lose the interactivity. Bonus) remember that these are times of lockdowns - this offers an opportunity for stores and customers to interact in a more time-efficient way.
Our goal with these live broadcasts is to answer as many questions from our audience as we can reasonably get to, and do so while providing in-depth information. Even in two hours, we still can't answer every single question. Based on the overwhelmingly positive feedback we've gotten through comments, likes, new subscriptions, direct emails and phone calls, seems like most of the Leica community appreciates what we're doing.
We do timestamp our videos, as you can see on our previous episodes. This makes it easier to find the exact topic or topics that you might find most relevant.
One is free to run for the door, nobody will hold your hand. I'm personally grateful that people care enough to answer ALL the questions and people who own in-depth knowledge on certain subject area is willing to share without reservation. If one lack of judgement how to use one's time on youtube or internet in general, yup ... maybe he should run for the door. The length of these video are driven by the curiosity and inquires of audiences and in fact very customer-focused approach, and you don't see many youtube channels are willing to do this. There are millions of youbute video even with 5 minutes are simply waste of time and i find them even more abusive of bandwidth than thoughtful 2 hours discussion. Yes I don't see many comments like yours especially one o use 'porn' and comparison of this insightful and educational channel is extremely disrespectful and I found it offensive and 'abusive', time and value is relative to each individual, it is probably none of your business to tell people how they should use their time and energy in life...and if you worry about bandwidth of internet? well you got more things to worry about in this world...
@@adyshih Learn to cope with other views. Try harder.
@@johnjon1823 Thank you John, yes exactly totally agree with you - :)