Another worship leader loses his faith. What's going on? Jon Steingard & Sean McDowell
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- Опубліковано 18 чер 2020
- Jon Steingard of the band Hawk Nelson is the latest in a number of Christian personalities who say they've lost their faith. Jon joins Justin along with Christian thinker Sean McDowell who has written a response blog to Jon’s Instagram announcement.
Jon Steingard / jonsteingard
Sean McDowell seanmcdowell.org/blog/christi...
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I am an atheist and just wanted to say how much I appreciate Sean's humility and intellectual honesty. I wish all conversations on this important topic could be half as respectful as this one. Much love to all of you believers out there.
God is love and there’s no version of love outside of that.
Ex-atheist here. Come on over :) Also, check out J Warner Wallace...an atheist for 45 years scrutinizing to disprove the death and resurrection of Jesus, who is now a believer. And, as I did, I simply asked the Lord God for Truth, after He saved my life one night.
Let me add a couple of names to: Chuck Mistler, who has a very scientific mind, and Ravi Zacharias, one of the best apologetics guys for Christianity.clearascrystal
@Nigel Butt 1Can you explain some detail you had with Jesus? I not only had one encounter, but others since, but there was no doubt when God answers or speaks I knew it was Him. No not every "thought" so I am very careful of it. The Bible is what He showed also. I understand my experience won't prove anything to you btw. I know this by trying to tell atheists many times, and it is all dismissed as hallucinations, wishful thinking, etc. Do you dismiss all spiritual things?
@Nigel Butt How does a maggot get near a baby's eye?
When I was 12 years old I accepted Jesus as my personal Savior at a neighborhood evangelical church. My Mom and atheistic Step-father were upset and called me a "fanatic" and came close to kicking me out of the house. It was a difficult journey and I was able to continue my faith. I became disillusioned because the teachings of Jesus and the Christians I knew didn't match. At age 25 I "backslid" and led a hedonistic life during my adult years. When my third marriage failed after years of emotional personal dysfunction, at age 40 just having been beaten by my alcoholic husband, I tearfully, literally fell on my face and surrendered my life to Jesus Christ. I'm 86 years old now and my 46 years of pursuing God, serving Him at every opportunity, my life had become more real. The Kingdom of God is real.
Thank you for sharing that! How Beautiful to hear a personal testimony with someone of such life experience. 86 yrs young is remarkable!
@Jerry Collins You are of Satan. Repent
Thank you for sharing your story. It has had a tremendous impact on me. Bless you.
AMAZING... And it took you 15 years for God to bring you to your knees. Just like them. Let's pray for their life-changing encounter.
@@billion86 AMEN!
I wish all conversations could be this respectful and this honest. Thank you all three for conducting yourselves with such class and humility.
Well, I’ll give Jon credit for doing his best to be honest, live with integrity, and ask hard questions. It’s better that he is honest about his doubts/unbelief than to just go along with Christian culture or put on an act to please other people. I do hope he will eventually come around though and have a genuine faith in Christ.
Why?
I hope he continues to find truth in factually accurate answers to his inquiries. Answers that are rooted in the rigour and robustness of scientifically questioning everything you think you know, only to find the answers lacking, because you know that there is more to find out, and that the most satisfying question is the one with the answer ‘I don’t know, but I’ll find out’. …that or he could go back to believing in god, what a tragic story that would be.
@@rickwitten
So he is not stuck in darkness,
with you and Professor Dave.
The real question is,
Now that you’ve heard Sean,
no matter if you were raised in a crockpot, crackpot church,
or a test tube…
you are accountable.
Why would you reject the Light?
I agree with you, but your statement contradicts the Pascal's wager ideology being pressed by Christianity today. I think promoting the idea one xan fake it till they become so habitualized to the habit of belief one starts to believe is a belief that you can successfully lie to God. As if God can be fooled. It's good to see someone not pushing that belief.
@@kingsxkids why do you think this post is one promoting the "light'? First it seems condescending. Then you throw in a pinch of insult. Then toss in the threat through the idea of accountability. People that don't believe find they don't need a threat of punishment to do good. They become accountable to themselves and those around them. Why reject the light? What light? The light is supposed to come from the believers and followers. Look around at the 'light' Christians are spreading today. That light brings harm to so many.harm to children by the thousands, harm to people in the greater community, oppression, authoritarianism. The 'light you speak of is not a true light and it leaves darkness and suffering in its wake. That is how that light looks to those on the outside.
I’m only 41 minutes in, so I don’t know if they had discussed it but yes, you can know for sure because of what happens to you once you are BORN AGAIN! I grew up as a Muslim. At a low and scary point of my life I fell on my knees and cried out to Him, and He came, and there was no doubt in my heart that Jesus is who He says He is. I fell asleep one person and woke up another, that doesn’t just happen, it is the Holy Spirit that transforms us!
Jesus said we must be born again. There is a difference between that, and feeling like you’re a Christian because that’s what your parents are and you were going to church all your life.
Thank you for your comment. It is an inspiration. Prayers that the Lord bless and keep you, in Jesus name.
Hallelujah! Amen! It’s a Spiritual exchange! We must first, as you did, confess you’re a sinner before God. Confess that Jesus is Lord over all! Then ask Him to be Lord of your life and be our Savior!
Wow. Enjoyed reading your testimony!😊
I found this a sad story, but a very common one. Each one of us need our own faith, our own relationship with God. We can not live on somebody else's faith.
AMEN!!
Jesus says he will send the Holy Spirit and he will lead us into truth. I've learned that Jesus is the Word of God, and anything that contradicts Jesus is not God. Jesus never killed anyone, therefore, anytime the Bible says God killed someone, it is not true, because God does not kill people. Satan does. That is the gospel, the good news!
Its sad most comments seem to be that crappy people turned them away.
Etell R Well said, sister.
Absolutely!
I was baptized at 18, lost my faith and became an atheist for six years and God called me back in the most gentle beautiful way. God is not afraid of your questions. He'll meet you and wrestle with you like he wrestled with Jacob. If God is truth and if you honestly seek the truth, you will find.
Yes Amen and God is the only truth there is, I pray God will draw him back very soon
I almost lose my faith in christianity but when i realised what the true god is, i feel ashamed to myself.
God said he is the only god, and there is none like him.
Obviuosly, god "denied" any other god or another god who created him, which is a common trait of an ATHEIST..
am i deserve to be an atheist, i asked my self?..of course not was my answer..coz' i CA'NT be as mighty as god the CREATOR.
Remember this bro..
ISAIAH 43:10
God said... before me no god was FORMED, nor shall there be after me.
was FORMED?.. of what manner?. by what process?. somewhat the same as he created man out of DUST?. he was formed from dust?..
God is REAL!.
What a bunch of crap!
Amen. Thank you.
I really respect the tone and compassion of this conversation. I was worried that two Christians would attack an ex-Christian and berate him. So pleased to see the opposite.
According to Jesus, respect is the Christian way. It’s a pity more people don’t use it.
What bible verse says he can take back his belief? He only has to belive in Jesus then its all Gods job to save him and keep him as the lost sheep he is.
@@charlesco7413 well, in one of Paul’s letters, he talks about “some will abandon the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits “. Perhaps he has abandoned his faith.
What an incredible interview. What Sean said about shedding false ideas of Western Christianity?
Spot on
Cold. Hard. Truth.
I will definitely be recommending this interview.
I don't believe Christain doctrine ever held that god was a parking attendant ... just sounds like our Man Child has finally realised they need to act like an adult
I feel like he needs to talk to Dr. Michael Heiser or Dr. Tim Mackie. His misconceptions seem to fall on the english translation. Where did Jesus get his foundational teachings? The Law of Moses (Torah), The Prophets, and Writings (he calls them the Psalms) His teachings are from the TaNaK.
Hi,there,Melissa,I’ve seen you talk on a video. It was pretty good stuff. Thank you
Yes true,all should know the truth,it is everywhere church without Jesus The Christ.
So it's ok to deny your Faith when the bible expressly says what will happen? I subscribed to you now I want to unsubscribe.
I went to church my entire childhood because that was expected of me. It wasn’t until I had my own personal experience with God and formed a relationship with him that things actually came together. I can’t meet or know God through my family, it’s a personal relationship period...no other way.
The evangelical church speaks of believers having a "personal relationship" with Christ.
It's utterly absurd. How the hell can Jesus inhabit an indestructible physical body and at the same time be all knowing and all seeing? It makes absolutely no sense.
@@ianstrange5674 that's the holy spirit, Jesus is up in heaven, "I and the Father are one" John 10:30. And the holy spirit allows you to speak in tongues and what was your point because Jesus was destructable when he was human and physical and he's all knowing and seeing because he is God its hard to believe but "blessed are those who do not see yet believe" idk where that's from I'm still a kid memorisng my verses
Amen
YES ! Romans 10; 9 and 10 !
@@ianstrange5674 you genius
"I didn't have to be a Christian to make a living any more" What an illuminating statement! I wonder how many other Christians are in jobs they cannot leave like that. I mean people from the clergy project are a small group who were able to find other work but, like an iceberg, I think they are just the tip and there is a huge underneath of Preachers and Worship leaders teachers and every occupation they got because of their Christianity and they have to keep up the façade of Christianity to keep the job that is putting food on their families' tables.
Obviously we all must eat.
However it's a limiting belief to say, " I didn't have a choice."
We all have choices, but our minds limit our options.
Live always with integrity and trust God. The solution to the immediate problem may not be obvious today, but something we had not considered, will present itself tomorrow.
I feel sorry for anyone who is posing as a Christian to make a paycheck. Jesus never charged money or got paid to preach and minister.
@@testingspirits7446 Right, but it was because the community supported Him.
Of course He did not have a church building and a weekly collection plate, but no criticism should be made against pastors that do.
And don't forget the ministers that have secular jobs to support them and their ministry.
We all need food, shelter and clothes, including Jesus. And we either are supported by our own labor, charity or government welfare.
It was interesting hearing John Brierly state (unrelated) despite being a career Christian that he is sincere. Jon Steingard was probably was every bit as sincere. It's just after his livelyhood no longer depended on his Christianity he was free to explore doubts.
Hudson Taylor called them rice christians
I'm so grateful for Jon's openness about his deconstruction journey. Deconstruction can be a lonely process for a lot of people. It's good and healing, but also difficult. It helps to have someone like Jon talking about it so vulnerably and honestly.
You are so right. I went through deconversion a couple of years ago, and back then up to now, my wife of 26 years has remained faithful to Christianity. I never want to offend my wife, and I also do not ever want to take something away from her that seems to give her so much peace. There is always that feeling of conflict under the surface, but up to now, I have refused to let it get between us, and will continue to do so.
@@mikehock5285 that would be difficult to be in such different places, I'm sure.
@@mikehock5285Bro, your screename is "mikehock". I bet it feels really good to keep engaging in your secret sin now that you think you don't have a God to answer to. Instead of repenting, you walked away to make yourself feel better. God help your poor wife. She's probably crying her eyes out in prayer that you come back and here you are bragging about your folly as if you did something noble. Don't be a damn fool.
All three of you were able to share your heart and mind in a very honest way. The result is a constructive conversation. Thanks for sharing your heart, guided by your mind
Great interview. Love the respect shown between these men. As for the comment section, half the people seem to know “the real reason” why Jon left the faith. “He didn’t believe this specific way” “He never was saved to begin with” No one knows what he fully believed or experienced as a Christian. Also, just because you have an answer to his questions doesn’t mean it holds any water. This man is still trying to figure things out so it’s funny how so many of you have it figured out for him.
vic when Jon first became a Christian, do you think it even crossed his mind that one day he would leave?
We do “have it figured out” as the Word of God has revealed Truth. I have deep respect and compassion for this soul. I want him to know the love of Christ Jesus and make Him his Lord and Savior. I was once lost, too, and had a long journey of questioning and not really knowing what I believed. God was patient and slowly beckoned me back to Him. I’m so thankful to God because I now am a new creation in Christ Jesus. I first had to humble myself before God, ask Him to forgive me my sins against Him as He defines sin, and confess that Jesus is God incarnate. I had to put my trust and faith in the atoning Sacrifice of Jesus, Who died on the cross for the sins of man. Then I received His Holy Spirit and have been in a relationship with God Himself! It’s not always easy or fun, but exciting and transformative! Jesus is the way, the truth and the life! He loves everyone of us, equally. However, He never pushes Himself on us, but invites us into a relationship with Him...not a religion✨✨✨💕💕💕
Beloved, I don't know you in person but God knows you. God ministered to me in a revelation when I was on your profile to see things around you,I saw blessings but spiritual attacks holding onto them,in prayers,i saw a woman in the realm of the spirit monitoring and plotting delay in your life, with an evil mirror, and with a motive to destroy. But as I speak to you now her time is up, Render hand of favour with Anything you can afford or give to these motherless foundation (Godstime MOTHERLESS FOUNDATION) in kebbi state nigeria before 2DAYS with faith, as I Rise my hands towards heaven and pray for you they shall serve as point of contact wherever you are, you will receive double portion of grace to excel and total restoration of breakthrough in your life and in the life of your family. Ask for their acct details and help them call the MD in charge of the orphanage to get their details on (WhatsApp or call them now on +2348122050178) tell him I sent an you. For it is not by might nor by in power but of the spirit saith the lord (zechariah 4:6). You shall testify to the Glory of God in your life. God bless you..
I left my christian faith 20years ago at the age of 45. Never look back
Did you find other faith?
@@For3nity my thinking is All Gods are created by human. What make me jumped off the ship is the murder of my sister. Jesus supposed to be the protector instead he looks other way. The direct answer to your question is nope
I agree wholeheartedly ❤
I feel that sometimes human beings because they dont find "assistance" in this world in desperation turn to prayers to GOD hoping he will give them the miracle they need from a grave situation. But unfortunately we realize sometimes there is no such thing. Others are lucky to have their prayers "answered" if that's what really happened and in that case then what does it take to be chosen ???
It is really fascinating how two different people can go through deconstruction and one can stay a Christian and one leave. I remember moments in seminary when my older classmates told me I would come out the other side a stronger believer. I thought I had and then ten years into ministry I would now consider myself a Humanist. I am so thankful for this dialogue, thanks for sharing it!
The fundamental problem with The Christian belief system is the belief in sin and guilt real. How does one wake up from the profound illusion of sin and guilt if one first makes them real?
@Thatsmynametoo coming back to one beliefs from childhood isn’t as mysterious to me as falling away from them. It’s always easier to embrace what a culture and family have told you is the truth, it’s much more difficult to think independently and walk away from those beliefs. At least that has been the case for me. I wish Christianity were true, it would make my life a lot easier.
Teach I deconstructed from mind Controlling baptist church. L feel closer to Jesus now legalism and puritan life style does not work for believers.
@@teachpeace3750 do you feel like you’ve liberated yourself from the dumb superstitions of your family? That’s called pride. You owe it to yourself to teach yourself real Christianity.
@@freegracerevival that’s not how I would characterize my journey of becoming a Humanist at all. It wasn’t pride, it was being honest with the evidence. The claims simply didn’t match the evidence provided.
Also, I have two degrees in biblical studies from well known Christian universities in the US. I’m not sure what you mean by suggesting I should better understand real Christianity…
"Churchianity" without meeting Jesus = problems
Exactly I am at minute 7 and it is already pretty clear the guy wasn't even born again. So the problem is not that they are loosing their faith or however they want to word it. The problem is that there are whole freaking mega churches that have no born again Christians in them.
@@Vynachadzavy well, I hope you never have any doubts, because people will say the same thing about you. It's the easiest way to dismiss someone, just pretend that you know their experience, it's easier that way.
@@trybunt I know I sound very judgmental. That is because I am. The word of God is very uncompromising with those who are bringing spiritual confusion and false teachers and false prophets. And those are exactly the people I am talking about. We are also being told that these kind of people will say anything for money and money will be their main drive. This guy here says it right straight forward that he was pretending just for money. Once he had other source of income he wasn't afraid about the truth coming out.
I do have doubts. Everyone has. But once you are in Christ it is His Spirit that is reassuring you of your own salvation. What people say about me is absolutely irrelevant to me or to anything else. I don't seek approval of people because I have died to my self. I needed Jesus because I was a horrible person. And if you want to point out my flaws I will just thank you because you are proving Jesus right. But this young guy here was a people pleaser. He never died to himself. He wasn't ever born again. If you were born again you would understand how important it is to realize for a person that they are on their way to hell. So you will do anything to make it clear for them because you live them enough to care about their eternity. All the best.
@@Vynachadzavy I know people who would tell you right now that you're "clearly not a true Christian, because anyone in a real relationship with God couldn't have any doubts, it's that simple, you obviously haven't had any real experiences with god."
And likely, you would just think "pfft, what would they know, they don't know what's inside my heart or my head" and you would be absolutely right to think that, I'm only mentioning this because- if you actually care about other people's eternal salvation- then telling them that you know their hearts and minds, when you actually don't, is not a good way of helping them.
All I'm trying to say is- imagine how you would feel to be told the same thing, would that sound like it comes from a place of love ? From a person concerned about your soul? Or would it feel like you are just being conveniently explained away, so that these people don't have to confront your doubts?
@@trybunt I noticed that you are willing dodging term "born again" and replacing it with "true Christian" yet right after that you are the one who wants to define who it the true Christian. I am not playing that game with you friend. Being born again has nothing to do with an experience. The Churches that are full of worldly people who are NOT born again always talk about emotions and psychology. Emotions are real but they are very dangerous indicators of any kinds of reality. Internal or external. If you are born again then Holy Spirit is producing assurance in you. Yes because you are in the flesh you will have some doubts but you fight them with the armor well described in the scriptures. And born again person will reach for that armor without hesitation. The one who is not born again will try to find answers outside of God. Outside of his word. Btw. We are not talking about just doubts. We are talking about people who were professing to be Christians for a long time and they come out proclaiming that they are not Christians anymore. And that is your text book apostasy. If you want to understand what an apostasy is pls visit John MacArthur channel and help yourself.
Now I didn't have a stomach to watch this whole video and not sure if this guy is having just doubts or is proclaiming not to be a Christian anymore. But there is many others who have done just that and I believe even the title of the video indicates that. I will have to look again. I don't know who the guy in video is so I wasn't talking just about him. But if this all was just because of his doubts, boy I tell you the fact that he was allowed to continue the ministry he was in and the fact that it came so far and many other facts also indicate how rotten that church is.
My church family members get so upset when their kids say stuff or behave in “unchristian” manner and I always tell them that these children are not born again. Just because your children follow you to church doesn’t mean they are believers by default. My question is this: if you had an encounter with God, how can you expect your kid to just be and think they are born again. You must pray for their salvation and believe that it will happen. The scripture says “ when a a soul is saved, their household will be saved.” Keep praying and allow God to do the work. Don’t manipulate or force your kids. Except the Lord calls, no one can come to Him.
I have been praying for my kids since they were kids. My daughter got born again in sophomore year of college. My son just went to college in 2019. He called me one time that he wanted to go to a pajama party and was it ok for him to go? I just told him I had raised him right and I believe he will make the right decision. After hanging up, I knelt down and prayed, asking God to guide him. The next day, he told me that he didn’t go. When he came home during spring break I saw a change and I felt something great was happening. He later told me that he met some guys on campus who witnessed to him. He got baptized a month ago, praise God. Remember this parents.. God is faithful to all generations. My youngest son is getting ready for college next year and I know it is impossible for God to lie. If He did it for one, He can do it for all.
God bless you all!!
Amazing testimony! Thank you for posting!
I believe you God bless you I have two son I continue to pray for them
I love what Sean said about the apostles giving their lives for the gospel. They were willing to die for what they believed. We have it too easy in this country, we're not persecuted like in other countries. We can't imagine dying for our Christian faith. Lord help us to stay in the faith, and to not grow cold. I pray for Jon to come back to the Father. He'll be waiting with open arms.
There are donald trump followers willing to die of Covid-19 because they believe in donald the trump.
Willingness to die or kill for what you believe is not good enough as proof of anything other than the willingness of someone to die or kill.
Christians aren't the only ones persecuted , and yes,if a lie is believed strong enough,attached to emotions and sentiments, it's humanly possible to die for it. It has happened since we were homo sapien sapiens, the last 100,000 plus years.
Marisa: Are you kidding? Many people die for what they believe. Look at the soldiers who have died for freedom and their country. I would also die in a heartbeat for my kids and grandchildren.
Dying for a particular belief is not proof of the truth or veracity of that belief. The Muslims who drove those planes into buildings on 9/11 were willing to die for their beliefs. Kamikaze pilots were willing to die for their beliefs during World War II. Jehovah's Witnesses were persecuted during World War II and willing to die for their beliefs. The Buddhist monk who set himself on fire as a protest against the Vietnam War was willing to die for his beliefs. The list goes on and on.
@@anonymousjohnson976 The Apostles died for what they saw, not what they believed. Nothing like early Christianity is comparable to any other religion.
My husband came to know the Lord through Josh McDowell's book "Evidence that Demands a Verdict". The book convinced him that the Bible was true and his life changed with the conversion. I will always be grateful to Josh for that book. It is now about 37 years and he is himself an apologist and never doubts God's word. I pray that Jon will be born again and turn to the Lord......
wont happen ever again once you use your logical mind and start to question things theres no turning back 🤷🏻♂ its simple, logic and intellectual honestly rips apart any religion
@@ray_x6959 I have a personal relationship with the Creator of the Universe , through the work of the Lord Jesus Christ on the cross . He died to atone for my sins , and rose from the dead to show that I have eternal life now with Him .
What about you ?
@@ray_x6959
Wrong
Typical atheist mantra.
Please do Not get your philosophy from a cranky Oxford physicist.
Nor from an MIT emo straw man expert. Get with the latest science which proves our Creator.
@@kingsxkids where is that evidence for a creator specificality the ones that are from religion?!? you would think it would be every where right?
@@malcolmscrivener8750 how do you prove that
One of the best, most honest and civil discussions that I have watched for a long time. Two lovely guests, keeping it real and not being over-intellectual. Honest questions, honest objections, honest responses. I would have loved another hour of it.
Christine S I completely agree!
Absolutely! I loved it.
Beloved, I don't know you in person but God knows you. God ministered to me in a revelation when I was on your profile to see things around you,I saw blessings but spiritual attacks holding onto them,in prayers,i saw a woman in the realm of the spirit monitoring and plotting delay in your life, with an evil mirror, and with a motive to destroy. But as I speak to you now her time is up, Render hand of favour with Anything you can afford or give to these motherless foundation (Godstime MOTHERLESS FOUNDATION) in kebbi state nigeria before 2DAYS with faith, as I Rise my hands towards heaven and pray for you they shall serve as point of contact wherever you are, you will receive double portion of grace to excel and total restoration of breakthrough in your life and in the life of your family. Ask for their acct details and help them call the MD in charge of the orphanage to get their details on (WhatsApp or call them now on +2348122050178) tell him I sent an you. For it is not by might nor by in power but of the spirit saith the lord (zechariah 4:6). You shall testify to the Glory of God in your life. God bless you......
Why call him a "worship leader" rather than a performer of christian music?
Oh yes he was a TRUE Christian, even though you want to reject it. 😂
@@carlose5751 I don't know what you are trying to say, or laughing at. I was questioning the title. Jon actually wasn't a "worship leader" -- i.e. leading worship music for a church or at worship concert events. He was a performer, and happened to perform Christian music. That was my distinction. What's yours?
@@chaddonal4331 I think youre splitting hairs. Its common to call the person leading worship music.. "worship leader". There is nothing nefarious there. Its just a title. Next time you go to church, feel free to walk up to the Music Minister and call him a christian music performer.. Go ahead... Let us all know how that goes..
@@ourawkfist Actually, you are conflating genres, and purposes. To lead in musical worship is to lead people in singing to God. To have a career performing solo songs with Christian themes has been called CCM. The genres, purposes, and approaches are different. Also the contexts (churches verses arenas).
@@chaddonal4331 Then youre splitting hairs over periods of time. Im 52, from the earliest age in church, before I was 5, the lead of music was called the worship minister or worship leader.. No, im not conflating purposes either. If he is in a concert and the audience/congregation is worshiping God via music, i would call his role/position worship leader. Its a MOOT point, it means NOTHING what title he chooses to call himself or what others call him. This argument serves NO Godly purpose other than to divide. Is that your purpose?
Absolutely honest confession. Sad too. The same mistake I can see in the church:- youth groups: forced to be worship leaders or youth seeking that social limelight - and given by the pastor WITHOUT them being "Born-again" as told in John chapter 3
As a Christian mother, pastor’s daughter, and pastor’s wife, I have often worried if my children will ‘fall-away’ from the truth. So I appreciate John saying it wasn’t his upbringing or his mom! 😅 But I also appreciate Sean’s response from his father not being scared of doubt and really saying it as a good part of the process in making his faith real! It has given me confidence when/if my children have doubts to not be shaken by that, because the search for truth brings us full circle to belief and it can stand against criticism. Watching this debate helps me to offer the same freedom to my children to let them ask the hard questions and struggle with the hard conclusions with the same kind of poise and wisdom that Sean had in this conversation with John who questions it.
But I also wanted to say thank you to John for being open and honest about his journey, because I, too have felt trapped at times being a pastor’s daughter/wife, to believe the church traditions that I don’t always agree with. Right now, I am studying the Bible and questioning the roots of our holidays and traditions that have claimed ‘Christian’ but have pagan roots-but it is counter-Christian culture, to claim to follow Christ and want to celebrate the feasts of the Lord instead of Christmas-for example. Because it reinforces the idea that sometimes Christians can be caught up in all the wrong things-like praying more for a good parking spot at church than praying for orphaned children in Uganda-and caring more about presents around a Christmas Tree than truly celebrating Christ. So, I understand in a way, how as you study and question the things around you, how you can conclude that Christianity is not the answer-but I hope you find that Christ still is. I, too, look around at Christ’s followers and wonder why they/we don’t always get it-that there are more important things than praying over our fried chicken. But I hope that as you keep studying you will have the courage to do what is right, and show believers what a true faith looks like and sometimes it is walking forward in faith even if you don’t know what the next step looks like. Sometimes it is questioning the systems in place to understand the true foundation that needs to be built on and rebuilding on a true foundation and not a shaky system of traditions masking themselves with Christ.
Thank you for this conversation. I enjoyed the whole thing!
This is the BEGINNING of his true faith journey, not the end. He is shedding his false self. Even though he is leaving now, it doesn't mean he won't be back in the future. Now begins his 40 years in the desert.
There is a time when God is not available...ppl speak of God's love but there is also His Wrath....end times and its time to endure not walk away
Look at what is going on in world right now . The financial social economic and political chaos. How can anyone in their right mind leave the church.? Now is the time to hold on to your faith. Signs of the times are everywhere and he is coming soon.
Very well said! I've actually never heard of this guy.
@@msmichelle2196 His wrath is not reserved for His children, but it will be coming for those that have refused His GIFT of our Savior. His Bride won't be here for the wrath.
@ Blueskygal - Amen to the beginning of his true faith journey. We are all tempted to cast Jesus aside because the Adversary will plant seeds of doubt. Christ stands by ready and waiting to welcome us back with pure love once we traverse the desert. Sometimes it takes many years to go full circle. The Holy Spirit walks with people in their doubt and dry periods. Loving people back into Jesus’s Kingdom on earth is what we are called to do without judging.
I see a guy who found himself while examining what his "faith" was made of. He asked himself the question "would I do this if it wasn't required". His answer was "no". That's an honest answer. Here's a guy who just discovered he's been religious all his life & was not living in faith concerning his so called "ministry".
I applaud him for honesty. Why? Because he discovered he was living a lie. Only Jesus would have helped him come to that recognition. Surely the devil did not ask him to look at his motives to see if they were authentic? Satan doesn't do that because it messes up his work.
I think this guy now stands a much greater chance of finding the Jesus he sang about but never really knew. God honors his honesty because Jesus is truth & would never reject a person for honestly examining himself. I think Jesus is at work in his life and is responsible for his discovery. Now I think Jesus can lead him better than before because the "faking it" is gone. God would rather someone leave a church building because of their honesty than stay in that building while not living true to themselves or to God. God is not impressed with outward appearances. He'd rather have an honest atheist to deal with than a dishonest "believer".
Yep. You hit the nail right on the head.
“I would rather you be hot or cold, but because you are lukewarm, I spew you out of my mouth”
@@donatzerodayslife-- Do you feel superior when you use scripture to create guilt & condemnation in people? Frankly I don't see how that guys story has anything to do with the scripture you're using to smear him. Do you think that was God's purpose in writing that scripture - so that you would apply it to others instead of yourself?
No, He wouldn't. False professors and atheists are both heading for the lake of fire unless they repent and believe.
@@HeartsofSound I think Don was agreeing with your statement that God would rather have an honest atheist than a dishonest believer. I’m fairly certain he was saying the dishonest believers are the ones who would be “spewed,” not the honest atheist.
CSLewis talks about having doubt but he also said he has doubts when he was an atheist. Then he directs us to tell our emotions where to get off.
What a beautiful conversation. The level of mutual respect was such a contrast from other discussions I've seen.
He refers to growing up in a 'Christian culture' and of the 'Christian tradition'. THAT is the problem. Surely a Christian is one who has gone INDIVIDUALLY to Christ, confessing their sinfulness and their need of Him.
@Charles Pieters I'm afraid I strongly disagree with you Sylvester. None of us could ever keep the ten commandments. How many of us keep even the first commandment and love God with all our hearts and all our souls. Only the Lord Jesus kept the Law perfectly. We are saved by faith in Christ and in His death on the cross and His resurrection. The bible teaches this clearly and repeatedly. If any of us could keep the commandments, the cross would not have been necessary. It is His blood, and not our conduct nor our confession, that saves us. Confession restores us to fellowship with God, but it does not save us. We are required to be cleansed by the blood of Christ once and for all, and we can only do this by going individually to Him in prayer as sinners needing to be forgiven. Jesus said :'I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance'.
@@williambunter3311 & Charles Pieters
*_This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us._* 1 John 3:23
Also, Jesus commands us to do many things in the New Testament. To be like the good Samaritan, clothe, feed, give drink to the poor etc., our faith in action when we love others in deed not just in word. When we do all these things to others, we are doing it to Jesus. _That's_ how we love God with all our heart, and with all our soul, and with all our mind and our neighbor as ourself. God bless you both.
@@AmandaWait I think you are right to say that doing those things is loving our neighbours/s as ourselves. But the Lord said there were TWO commandments. One was to love God, the other to love our neighbour. You have conflated them into one, my friend.
Another thing was that my comment was not to deny the importance of living a righteous, obedient life. It was to stress that we are not saved by doing so! If somebody doesn't have faith in Christ, their good works count for nothing. Our righteousnesses without Christ are as filthy rags (Isa.64v6). Salvation is by faith UNTO good works, not BY good works( Eph.2 vv8-10). Without faith it is impossible to please God, no matter how many good works we do or how hard we try to obey His commandments.. Works without preceding faith are tainted by the sinful flesh, and deep down are in the nature of self-justifying vanity.
The Roman Catholic church has led millions away from putting their faith in Christ and in Christ alone, teaching them instead to 'obey the ten commandments', partake in the 'sacraments', and to be regenerated though infant baptism and much other error. Anything to keep them from the bible truth that we each and every one of us need to go directly and individually to Christ and ask Him to be our personal Saviour. Only such saved individuals take their place as members of His body, the true church.
@@williambunter3311 I agree. I don't follow the Catholic church. I know we are saved by grace through faith. I don't keep the sabbath. Jesus is Lord of the sabbath. He fulfilled the law and I rest in His works. I am not saved by my works but our works prove our faith. We cannot have faith without works. My faith is shown by my good works. Because we love God and our neighbours we will not break His commandments by stealing, killing, lying, coveting our neighbours etc. It's not that we are trying to be saved by works. No, faith comes first and then our works follow because *WE LOVE.* God bless you William.
@@AmandaWait Yes, my friend. I'm in agreement with you, though I would say that we need to be careful not to make statements that could be taken to imply that Jesus obeyed the law for us. We are not saved even by His works, but by His death on the cross. He obeyed the Law, but it was on the cross that He fulfilled it. If we could rest in His works, the cross would not have been necessary!
However, we can both rejoice with all other believers and be ever thankful that of God He has been made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption. Praise His name! God bless you J4Jesus.
What I hear is his church experience, his parents salvation, being a pastor’s son, and being in a Christian band. Not once did he mention ever giving his heart to Christ, repentance, reading and studying his Bible, or praying. So was he ever a born again believer or was this just something he was brought up in and turned into a job? He heard of Christ but never really knew Him personally?
Plenty think the Lord have grandchildren ( because the parents were born again , the children think they are automaticly saved ) , no not so .He only have children .
Henk Ackermann so very true!!
Food for thought. We each got to walk out our salvation, we can't ride on our parents relationship. PK or no PK, you got to give your heart to God.
Rita Holliday amen!
THis is to you and Frankin Graha,m who still invites people "to ask Him to enter one's life" . Look, NO OTHER TECHNIQUES than understanding WITH ONE's MIND- :That I fall so sort of the glory of God, and He clearly tells me over and over that His good news IS GOOD NEWS!@and I am laying all my TRUST that he is willing, ready and able to give me forgiveness for all sins, yes even those in front of me. My mind wants to believe there is a hook some where that trust is not enough!! So saving faith is given as I believe what society says "is too good to be true" At that point the Scriptures say the Holy Spirit of the Trinity enters me and His comfort and guidance will never leave!! Now I know that was long , because I was attempting to explain "how 'being born, so simple on our side , but Christ makes it simple in order that Gods plan stays 100 percent away from any need "TO DO". If we insist on 'helping God' by fooling with the recipe God has given, we will NOT be justified and ewe will remain in our sins, as God declares :He will share his glory WITH No man which means YOU AND ME, at the moment of justification , nor in life nor in death, Justification- being declared by God comes at the moment of TRUST for God's amazing gift.That it is for anyone who believes oh my!! Even ME LORD?? Look how Christ praises any one that does ANYTHING that requires trust in God, ALWAYS, not works.
Jon’s story didn’t have anything to do with a true conversion but religion. You can’t lose something you never had (faith)
Faith is a belief in something without good evidence it's very easy to lose faith. Happens all the time
What a lovely transparent conversation between 3 gentlemen! I am follower of Christ. The funny thing was that I found myself resonating with so much Jon was saying in his gentle and thoughtful way. And yet I find myself landing firmly on the beauty and persuasiveness of Christian truth. Thank you Justin for moderating another fantastic conversation.
Ditto!
I think there are a lot of people in churches who are there for "community" and don't believe in most of the Bible.
...and think the rather empty version they've experienced is all there really is.
Yes. they pick and choose. The enemy is real and he doesnt want people to have faith.
@Master Sphinx is Royal tell me something, what about someone who's blind, dumb and deaf? They can't read the Bible, they can't speak and they can't hear a thing. How would they relate to God? Surely God hasn't forsaken such a person. God loves everyone but this person can't access the Bible so how does he or she access God or Jesus?
Can someone here provide me with an answer?
Google Ravi Zacharias - he gives some answers to all of your qiestions
that is true how do you feel about the bible? is it Gods word?
I’ve struggled with the same for my whole Christian life.
It gets really scary at times, even at 70 years old. But I will never give up on Jesus❣️🙏🏻
You shouldnt give up on God the Creator. You struggle because deep inside you know that Jesus is not God... There can't be three entities of God..
I really relate to this Melody. I came from an intellectual family but walked into a charismatic church where my son had been saved when I was 54. Now 69, I have never felt the love of God more deeply than from the people and pastors at my church. I am still questioning but also declaring scripture over my life and my families lives as it makes so much sense to me.
@@SheriDin OH MY!! JESUS SAID "ye believe in GOD, believe ALSO IN ME! For I and MY FATHER ARE ONE! (John 10:30)!! Yes! JESUS IS GOD! If you DO NOT GET THIS RIGHT, YOU HAVE IT ALL WRONG!!😢!!!
@@valarie6310 GREAT COMMENT HONEY! Blessings!
Jesus says many people will claim to know him, but he will tell them, 'I never knew you.' Our prayer should be that we be known by Jesus. We know that we have that relationship when we hear his voice.
Such a humble and honest conversation! I hope and pray you find what you are really searching for🍁💚
Love the grace among the three of you. Always love watching Sean. I believe Jon will return to the faith. I will be praying for that. Love you all!
If anything, this conversation is worth listening to because of its civil nature alone.
Learned a lot. Thank you for sharing.
Jon stated "my LIVELIHOOD no longer depend on singing" "we were always on tour playing a SHOW somewhere", these words should have started ringing alarm bells not just for Jon but for the rest of us - how do we treat worship leaders today, do we often treat them like pop idols? As a worship leader, I would ask myself what my motivations are and sometimes, the answer I got is not what I want to hear. However the discipline is still to face ourselves in the mirror and ask difficult soul searching questions. As Christ followers, we should seek to carry, caution and admonish one another in love. Sadly, my observation is that instead of carrying, cautioning and where necessary, admonishing, we are falling into the danger of worshiping the worship leaders and not God the One that is to be worshipped. Another observation is that we often place too much burden on worship leaders like Jon to entertain us with the type of songs they choose. I have seen cases where church members have been annoyed because they did not like a particular tempo of a song, or the song was too modern or too traditional etc. I believe is time for the Church of Christ to rethink the stage/star/idol/entertainment/me mentality that some Christian worship has become.
So true, Joanna.
I am concerned that many people are not having a true “transformational moment” with Christ. I have had my doubting seasons, but never about being born again. My doubts were more “scholarship related”. For example, while I was raised in a denomination that believes in the Pretribulation rapture, I now have a more orthodox view that the Church held for over 1900 years, that we will experience the tribulation before the Anti-Christ is revealed. There are many issues that come up that can be confusing. Suffering for example is another issue that can be confusing.
Jerry Collins you are way off track.
Jerry Collins yeah what you are saying is definitely way off the truth for sure
Jerry Collins yes I will always call Jesus Lord. Creator of Heaven and Earth and all there in. One day He will come back and judge all peoples on this earth you and I included. I am not wrong in this. Maybe u need to re study the word of God.
You can't loose what you never own. Walking, talking, and looking like a Christian is about all we were ever taught.
Yes, I agree with your statement so much. I come from a different culture and when I became a Christian I was so surprised by all the superficial “presentation” of most people I came into contact with. It was only by the grace of God that I stuck to the Bible. You can’t lose what you don’t have and you can’t get into Heaven on your parent's faith.
Very eye-opening how John refers to his experience with expository preaching as a positive and highlight. I tend to think people leave the faith because instead of preaching expository sermons, i.e., going through Scripture systematically, churches have addressed issues and propagated emotional experience. There has been a departure from teaching the simple Word of God. That is what will keep someone in the faith, the Word of God. A preacher is nothing if he is spouting his opinion or his own personal experience. It must be basic.
Spot on! Faith comes by hearing and hearing the Word of God!
Too many preachers say they preach the simple word of God when they're just masking their own assumptions in Biblical language.
👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽
Agree
I'm curious if you have met people who have left Christianity because of a lack of expository preaching, or if that is just the impression you get.
I ask because I've only ever met people who have stopped believing expicitly because of studying the scriptures. I know that a scholarly and dedicated examination of the Bible is what led me away from faith.
I often hear Christians say that studying the scriptures will lead me back to God, but it is the Bible itself which has convinced me that Christianity is not true.
this is a big issue within Christianity all over. People are there due to traditions. No real relationship with Jesus. Placed into leadership. Still no real relationship with Jesus. Christian music, as much as I love it is full of this. People who want to be professional musicians, and have been able to make it within the Christian music scene. And, it is exactly he same way amongst the general body of the church. Very few have any real relationship with their Lord and Savior. So they fake it, its how they make their money, both in the band, in the pulpit, and in ministry in general. The statement he is giving here, "If I dont have to believe in God, do I?" and then he realized he did not have to be a Christian to make a living. People living a lie, making money off a lie.
Jackie Horn Many ignoring the voice and prompts from The Holy Spirit and guardian angel. Lord help them to know you I pray🙏❤️🌷
no sinners prayer is the problem no sinners prayer taught by Jesus or anyone else in the whole bible the false teaching that the book of acts is history and that things are different now Acts 2;38 Repent and be baptized everyone of you in the Name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins and you shall recieve the gift of the Holy Ghost thats the Bible way of having our sins forgiven by God and having him live in us making us his children Ephesians 4;5-6
Absolutely agree...the problem I see with parents and churches is a lack of teaching of the word of God...young people do not know or unserdtand the word of God...there is so much we can teach our children not only biblical but how the bible came about using the history facts...but parents and church leaders cater more to entertaining activities or emotional feelings about religion but never teach how to form a true and deep relationship with God...
I remember when I was raising my daughters finding every possible way to answer their questions, to pray with them, to read them the word and explain the message behing what was read...teaching them how to run to God in every situation...teaching them that God is still God no matter what we have to face...
but many miss the fact that our children need to be prepared to face so many views that they will inevitably encounter someday...there are so many true and valuable sources that prove the existence in God and the sacrifice of his son Jesus....
but the most valuable source is to pray with your children to literally take the time to answer their questions and find the sources if you do not have them ...We have to continue to pray for this generation...
Amen
Could have been he wanted to believe but couldn't bring himself to believe so he never had a relationship with the Lord. People go to church for different reasons even in church you could find people that are not loving at all. That is why we believe in faith and mind soul and heart have to be fixed on Jesus
Please to all the pastors: do not just make people worship leaders because they can sing or you want to encourage them. They have to be born-again, anointed and chosen by God. Always ask God before you do anything. Because as soon as they are on the altar (or stage nowadays) they are ministering, so something is spiritually released. If it's not the Holy Spirit, it is another evil spirit, so for the sake of the other members, be very spiritually discerned and prayerful! Worship leaders cannot just lose their faith, unless they were not even born again.
Amen! 💯
A M EN! AMEN! AMEN!!!
Saturday 15 June 2019 I had a dream.
In this dream I am looking at a Christian singer busy performing on stage. I am looking on from the side, not from the audience view and I do not see the audience or anyone else in my dream.
He sings and turns his back on the audience and then when he turns back around his face is made up like the Joker character (which Heath Ledger played in the movie) and on his forehead
almost between the eyes is the lightning bolt symbol in black, like the satanic one and I have this knowing in my dream that he is satanic, an imposter, not a true Christian. Then on my right hand side I hear Christians praying fervently but I do not see anyone, I just hear them praying fervently when they saw the singer turn around. End of dream.
Jerry Collins -sad to hear your opinion. Sad to imagine your eternity at this point. You are so deceived. The demons are having a ball with you.
Jerry Collins oh boy oh boy dear Jerry Collins. I have so much to say to you but perhaps would mean more to you if you got a solid Reformed theologian to respond. You desperately need a friend who can explain theologically.
Pray pray pray that God would give you wisdom and insight. Pray that if you are wrong that God would reveal it to you. He will if you are serious.
I like the way you have a conversation. Asking questions gets answers you don't expect. Faith is a framework of reality. You don't know what is happening to you until you understand what God is doing in you.
Wow! I just stumbled upon this dialogue and it was so powerful. I was impressed with the authenticity of all involved. I lost my faith some years ago and could really relate to John but Sean and the host had some great points to ponder also. Thanks for sharing.
This is such a thoughtful and respectful conversation. Jon is open to answers rather than just being angry, bitter and defensive.
The Lord will reveal Himself in a new, personal and very real way to him. God is not threatened by our questions. 🙌🏼
@@denisepayne9399 how do you know God is real ?
Yes I know I was Christian for more than 40 years , how come God doesnt communicate with people ? Why is it that you communicate for him ? Either he can't , can but won't , or maybe he exists in people's heads , because it's been indoctrinated into your brain from small . Can you record or demonstrate your experiences, you'd save religion if you could
Why is it always people preaching for a God ? God has yet to record or write one word , just one word . God would also know how to communicate with me but chooses not to , why ?
It’s a little disrespectful to impose your beliefs unto his life. That would be like me saying, Sean seems so brilliant, he will eventually see that god does not exist.
Amen to your comment. This sad gentlemen NEVER knew the comforter. WHY?
No one who actually had a revelation of Jesus decides not to believe anymore. That is why he said what he said in Matthew 16:16-18. Joining a church and following traditions is not what he was talking about. It's a personal revelation that a person receives from God that He is the Christ, the Son of the living God. That is the rock he builds HIS CHURCH on.
I never seen such a confuse and conflict individual about his Christian faith.
Not true scripturally.
Amen child of God! Amen!
Exactly
Please do not try to understand God intellectually because you cannot match God. It shows you didn’t have personal relationship with Jesus because if you did you wouldn’t leave him. Where ever you are going to find God you will finally come back to him because there is non other than him.
Greetings from a Central America.
I was a raised with Christianity everywhere in an Spanish speaking country.
I started having doubts about God and Jesus when I was 11 years old, since many stuff didn't make sense to me. I rejected those doubts because was highly scared.
I didn't face my doubts until I was 19 years old, already in the university studying Engineering. I officially accepted myself as an Atheist when I was 23 years old, so it took 4 years to deconvert myself.
It was a painful process with a lot of suffering to lose the faith and realize the quantity of false stuff I have been taught.
For a long time I thought it's such a horrible process which I should not invite anyone to deconvert. I wouldn't help anyone to open the eyes since most people would not resist it and would reject to lose the faith in the road.
Now I think that helping people to realize how bad is faith is necessary and part of my duty as human being. Is part of my epistemic responsibility.
In the process of deconversion I read nothing about the famous atheist like the Harris or Dawkins, I didn't know about them. I started to read them after many years and was surprised about many ideas in common that I had had.
Now I am proud of my process and worried by the religious minds all over the place.
Religions are in part one of those elements part of the system of ideas which actually keep these countries in the Third World.
No they don't
Listening to some of John’s doubts and questions has really helped me realize that maybe my sons have these and haven’t voiced them and then listening to Sean has given me the strength and trust in God that doubting is healthy so long as it brings you back to the God’s truth on the cross!!! Praise God for this conversation!!!!
As sad as this situation is, I have to say that Jon is in a great place for the Lord to really reveal Himself to him in a deeply personal and profound way. As much as we can love and pray for him, and I will, he really needs the Lord to reveal Himself and meet with him personally. The great thing about questioning, doubting, and searching, is that it makes room for the light of God’s Word and truth to finally shine and illuminate his heart. If Jon wants to truly know who God is and if He is real- God is merciful enough to show him. Lord, please Bless Jon with the answers he needs because it is really YOU he is looking for.
We have to live by faith each day. Jon is the most conflicted people I saw on this video. He needs prayers.
Amen I agree we need to be praying
lol, you guys don't give up do you, you can't even go "oh well, lost another one to reason" and move on, no one needs a god, gods have never done anything for humans, religion is a complete waste of a brain.
Amen 💖💖💖
@@donnaroberts4513 You may need prayers too because you may be lost and deluded. Why do you deny Ahura Mazda? Why do You deny Osiris and Vishnu? There was the 7th avatar of Vishnu, The Perfect Man, Lord Rama, who came to be a mediator for humanity. The Vedic texts and Puranas are far far older than the Hebraic texts. So why do you deny these? Have you noticed all men throughout history had explained evil and human incorrigibility on some malevolent spirit or, character or entity ascribed as a devil or demon? This is not a coincidence nor is it proof of said conundrum. It's part of our evolution from the survival mechanism in preserving the species, and simply avoiding natural harm made into conceptual archetypes. See, I just gave you a candidate explanation that comports with our "known" reality though not ruling out any other. So, how can you have 100% certainty or confidence? How do you know I don't have a fire breathing dragon or pink unicorn in my garage that gives me eternal life as well?
It's all a human construct! That's the point! Jesus' rising is made up and an exaggeration to deify a man as other personal dying and rising saviour demigods were. It's all human contrived. It is all non sequitur and a fallacy of equivocation. Wrong and Right need only to be objectively justified. There is no need for any ethereal edict or supreme being ruler to justify morality. Sorry, apologetic is not good enough.
Honestly sean has grown on me so much,i wish more apologists showed his humility.Good work sean and keep level headed and dont let pride get a hold of you,like so many apologists.
I'm an atheist and I totally agree. Dude is super honest and open.
much to be humble about...
Here here, I'm atheist and also totally agree (cheers Bothell). However, what i don't understand is the willingness to hold on various beliefs whilst acknowledging flimsy misinformed, misinterpreted, misunderstood holy books. Humility is the only acceptable attitude for those hoping it to be true. Too bad its so rare...he's a unicorn among apologists.
@@spectreskeptic3493 You can actually hear the cognitive dissonance when he admits the flimsiness and then in the next breath expresses a belief that all the bible (parts of which he just disagreed with) is inerrant
@@49perfectss Agreed. The cogdis is palpable.
What an eye opening, honest and apropos conversation!!!! I was intellectually and spiritually captured from start to finish!!
Thank you Dr. Sean that is the key to Christianity which is often missed: That Jesus was born, lived, taught His gospel, died, resurrected, ascended to heaven, and is coming back.
@cry for revival.. Well said..
"Son, guard your heart with your MIND, not your mind with your heart." Josh McDowell to Sean McDowell.
So sad that satan the father of ALL lies now scored another victim!
@Sylvester Ajah *AMEN!*
Sorry but what a bunch of phyco babbel . We guard our hearts by obeying the truth. What is the truth ? Psalm 119:148 Thy righteousness is an everlasting righteousness and thy Torah is the Truth. Direct biblical definition.
After reading all the replies I highly recommend people watch Dr. Kevin Zadai. He doesn't mince words when talking about the truth according to God's Holy word. What I love about what he has to say is that he says it all boils down to our *relationship* with Father God and following the life just as Jesus showed us by His example, which was having a constant day by day relationship with our heavenly Father. ✝️📖🛐
God bless you.
@@suejansevanrensburg6373 Satan's not real lol. But if you're going by the bible (where he's really not mentioned but twice maybe) the snake in garden Eden. The snake (devil maybe) was the only one that told the truth. God was the one lying and murdering. Is much rather be friends with Satan rather mass murderer. God
God still loves Him and when he has his crisis of belief, God will be there with open arms to bring him back into the fold. I'm praying for him. Being a Christian is never a job! It is a relationship with Abba Father. He is confused and we need to pray for him not criticise him.
AK///// If it really worked that well, he would not have begun to doubt.
Athena Koester, Amen!
@@k0smon we all have doubts at times...no big deal , for if we are honest with God , He reveals us the truth and doubts dissipate. That's why it's called a personal relationship: you can bring unto the Heavenly Father your innermost concerns, doubts and thoughts , and if you are sincere , God is there to answer most of your troubling questions. He is indeed good! He is indeed love! He is indeed mercy! Holy! Holy! Holy!
@@csmoviles ///// You make promises for God that I would love to receive. I will patiently wait.
Yes! ❤️
Very Good dialogue! The final points where absolutely so spot on !!!!!!!
“I have come into the world, that I should bear witness to the truth. Everyone who is of the truth hears my voice.” John 18:37
The Lord has NO grandchildren. It's easy but DANGEROUS TO ASSUME that conforming to expectations & going through the motions of living 'christianly' automatically equates to genuine repentance, belief and having been brought spiritually-alive BY GOD - it doesn't.
Yes, we all on our own when it comes to salvation. I feel this probably started out as a spirit of rebellion, because they are sons of Pastors , but after awhile if not dealt with this is what happens!
I think anyone who says "I dont need to be a Christian now because I now have enough money to not work in the church" has a heart issue to begin with.
Blessed Child: 1 Timothy 6:10 says that the love of money is the root of all evil.
So they can sing like a little bird...it would be better for them had they stayed put in their own little church and served the Lord freely and faithfully.... But they let the Devil whisper in their ear stories of fame and fortune, so they chased after the money and notariety. They made a name for themselves only to discover that they are not being true ...they are "posers" and if they speak of it, they will risk all they have chased after! The money is more important to them than their relationship with God.
@@krisgangwer3796
There are so many possible stumbling blocks for famous successful celebrities. Pride, greed, fame, temptation, distraction, political issues. Add pressure to perform as a Christian like he said to that...
He just became worldly! DUH!
I agree. Listening to all of his answers and back stories, I assume he was never a true believer.
Elga Benedicta it’s interesting. He struggles with a lot of things. However it seems he doesn’t go back to scripture to try to find the truth. When one has doubts all good but go back to scripture to gain understanding and ask Jesus to guide you.
Sean's answers were measured, respectful, compassionate, yet not compromised with the truth
Excellent discussion. I'm very glad I stumbled across it.
A great discussion. Nabeel Queresh really contributed to answering questions that I have.
Yes, Nabeel was phenomenal. I prayed so hard for his healing, and was truly devastated when he passed. He was not only extremely erudite, well considered, well spoken, and flawless in his research and delivery, as well as a brilliant thinker, but uncommonly gracious and kind. ( BTW, I think the name is spelled Qureshi. It's not important to the two of us, since we are both familiar with the man and his body of work, but it might be to those unfamiliar with him. 😉)
I’d b very, very careful there. Tread lightly. Aside from Ravi Zacharias being his mentor & Queresh “evangelizing” w/ RZIM, his beliefs strayed. He began telling blatant lies/exaggerating, his head swelled & most disturbing was the company he would keep. Idk if he intentionally strayed or was led away by false teachers that pursued him to stand on their side or what. Furthermore, the irony & details in when both RV & Queresh Departed & how, is not lost on me. We should pray for them.
The answer is very simple: You did not need JESUS and that’s why you lost faith. You said it yourself that you realize you did not need to be a Christian to make money. From your description your life was great and your parents were loving. Why would you need JESUS? He already blessed you because of your parents.
You seem that you are looking at Christianity with the community benefits but I was wondering if you have ever try to establish a relationship with JESUS? People tend to loose their faith in this world, you could have ask him for faith to get to know him better and I’m sure JESUS will have show you.
Unfortunately the ones with the stronger faith are the ones that have suffered and life has kicked them down so much Until JESUS saved them. The reality is JESUS exist but you have free will to choose to follow or not. I am a scientist too and I can tell you people are going to come up with all theories, twist few words, but they will never find JESUS. JESUS is a personal relationship, not a community relationship, not in science books. He is a one to one relationship
Lucy M That is what makes it so wonderful yet mystifying; We don’t control who He seeks out or who is “able” to believe. I could never truly believe until things went utterly and horribly wrong for me.
Yet now that things have improved I just believe. I couldn’t ,, then I did,, now I do...
it’s beyond explanation or human understanding
Lucy M : I love how you said that.
Jon needs to understand he is a sinner in need of a savior. Not am employee seeking an employer.
Beautiful... Right
All you people on here saying he was never a "true" Christian. How do you know?? Only God does. He who is without sin cast the first stone. How about the devil may of just got his way with him? Maybe its just temporary? Why don't you all just pray for him instead of saying "I dont believe he was ever a true Christian".
THATS FOR GOD TO DECIDE, NOT YOU
He might be a prodigal son. God is able to hold onto those whom He has called.
This belief ultimately comes from the fifth point of "TULIP" Calvinism: those individuals who are predestined to salvation WILL persevere in the faith. Those who do not persevere were among those who were predestined to hell all along. Calvinism is less influential than it once was, yet even among non-Calvinist Protestants, this doctrine often lingers in a watered down form.
@@michaels4255 Or perhaps there are similar minds in all faiths. Those who exercise their reasoning power realise there is no substance in it and leave. Those who don't think to much believe this nonsense for their entire lives. Everyone ultimately ends up in the same place, whether they thought differently during life or not.
I don’t know whether he was/is a “true” Christian or not, but how is that casting a stone more than saying he was a true Christian and the devil got him? That sounds more condemning to me.
And by his own admission, he had doubts before but was afraid to face them because of his career and family.
Thank you for the thoughtful discussion
"and some seeds fell amongst the rocks ,and sprung up......and withered for lack of moisture " Give your heart to God and if you like music second.
I thought worship was solely for Jesus Christ not for man or to create an experience. Our anchor is Christ. Our foundation is Jesus Christ.
Jesus Christ said he is the way the TRUTH and the life.
One LOrd one God and father of all who is above all and through all and in you all Ephesians 4;5-6 who are the you all those who (have been } thats past tense been baptized Romans 6;1-6 in the Name of Jesus Christ Acts2;38 to have their sins forgiven time is short Repent and believe the bible gospel the sinners prayer is a lie and its NOT in the bible anywhere Jesus did not say that EVER
@@perritoproductionsbiblespe7110
Trinity
@@raulruiz9680 ah trinity what?
trinity what?
I agree with you about worship; completely! I seldom find others who feel the same. Maranatha!
That was an excellent, honest discussion, thank you all for your transparency- asking the real questions.
Lots of believers go through a crisis of faith, it doesn’t mean it’s permanent. The lord may strengthen his faith!
It start with having a PERSONAL relationship with Jesus-Christ, I pray that for our Christian worshipers, not awards but a true relationship with the Lord that can stand in trying time.
His was the seed planted on thorny ground.
A 'true' relationship with a fictitious deity? mmm...
I still have a relationship with god himself. I offer him the smell of burning meat every sunday on my BBQ. Just like in the old days. I cut out the middle man.
Derek Allen lame
"And because of the increased lawlessness, the love of many will grow cold....but he who endures until the end shall be saved".. It's not that hard folks..."Marvel not that i say unto thee: You must be born again" (John 3). We're closer than we think to Christ's coming🤨🙏
callie ford
I have news for you....he's already here !! I recognised him and said ....excuse me, but don't I know you? and he said...please go away, I'm travelling incognito ...I asked him why? and he said ....are you kidding me ! the last time I was here, they nailed me to a cross!!
This man's love hasn't grown cold, he's simply searching for the truth. I admire him for being honest enough with himself and others to admit that he has doubts. I'm positive that God will honor his truth seeking heart and he will find his way back into the fold, only this time his testimony will be far more powerful than any song Hawk Nelson has ever put out. God bless him.
the bible is rubbish. disregard this, this is metaphor, this is fact, make yer mind up. christ never existed in the first place so coming is going to be tricky.
@@HarryNicNicholas ///// You would find "Caesar's Messiah" very interesting. Jesus was literature, not history.
“They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us.”
1 John 2:19
This doesn’t mean we shut the door on this guy and kick him to the curb. It does mean that he isn’t and never was a part of the church. He was Christian in title only.
We should pray for his salvation. That he would truly be converted.
This is only an example of the wheat and chaff being separated.
It’s very sad to hear about this. I prayed this guy will be saved.
Being honest and then genuinely interrogating things ( discovering that there are serious problems with all religions) is frequently why people leave Christianity.
I was saved in The Christian explosion of the 80s. I wound up in the heretical and blasphemous Word of Faith/Gab It and Grab It teachings. The very embodiment of 2 Peter 2:3 where 'their covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you' (KJV). I was taught I was EQUAL with God and Jesus was reborn in hell. I, too, was a worship leader when I walked away over ten years ago. Within this past week I became sick of not being in fellowship with God. It's a terrible place to be. I encourage you to start at the very beginning. Read the Word for YOURSELF. Remember, even the Apostles had jobs. They weren't paid to be Christians. I find the whole idea of cashing in on position absolutely revolting!
His argument basically is, "I don't believe in God anymore because I don't like the way He is running the world. I am hurt that He allows evil and suffering to continue on earth." He disagrees with the way God does things, therefore he does not believe in God anymore. Fantastic foundation for atheism! Does his issue against God prove that God does not exist???? If God does not exist, does this position answer his questions better? Ultimately it will redound to: "Where were you when I laid the foundation of the world?"
You don't have to prove god does not exist you have to prove he does. He simply does not believe a god exists because there is no evidence of it.
If you listened to the conversation, it's obvious that hes not certain there is no god. Just not the God he thought there was. It is possible he'll believe again but it wont be the same type of belief he had before.
"Where were you when I laid the foundation of the world?"
Translation: "How dare you ask me questions?"
Awesome conversation! It seems like he is so close to belief. I'm praying for you to find the truth and be truly free!
I really appreciate this conversation
Great conversation! I admire the love and respect shown here. Real honest intelligent questions and points presented by Jon and awesome wisdom and kindness from Sean. I loved these two guests. I hope this conversation continues. i will keep you both in my prayers.
I admire his honesty. I pray that God will give him a supernatural experience. Similar to my experience when I was getting ready to go to work when all of a sudden, my whole being was enveloped with God’s love; I melted down on my knees and sobbed. I was in the presence of God and He was telling me that He loves me even when I was still sinning, He loves me.
Had the same experience, seems common among us.
That's amazing since god is just an imaginary character. That says a lot about your so called experience.
@@rejectevolution152 : Except that you cannot prove it was a god and it is all in your mind.
@@anonymousjohnson976 Prove it.
@@scooby3133 Prove it.
"Im thoroughly dissatisfied with nihilism." Best line yet, and Amen to that! 🙂
What a great conversation!!!
Whoever seeks God with his whole heart ,will find Him.God is a rewarder of those who diligently seek him.I have wrestled with God and He is ok with that.He wants relationship ,the longer I live the more I rest in Him and His goodness.The bible does talk about people being led astray by giving heed to doctrines of demons.😔💔
yes and the most prevailent Doctrine of Demons in our modern world is the false teaching of the sinners prayer its just NOT FOUND ANYWHERE in THE BIBLE yet people eat that stuff up this is what the BIBLE teaches about repentance and forgiveness of sin; Repent and be Baptized in the Name of Jesus Christ FOR the remission of SINS and ye shall recieve the gift of the Holy Ghost Acts 2;38 acts 4;12 galatians3;26-27 Mark16 16 Acts all of chapters 10 and 11
Excellent!
Steve The second death!
@@perritoproductionsbiblespe7110 Amen!
"Follow Truth ... ..."
TRUTH cannot be manufactured, it can only discovered.
Thank you for caring to meet him where His heart and mind are asking for truth
Sean, thank you for engaging without sounding judgemental.
"They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they all are not of us.”
Exactly! This is what Sean should have said rather than Cumbaya.
Amen
Saratogan yes exactly.
I had a very difficult time of struggling with doubt between the ages of about 14 and 22. When I was 22 I decided to find the truth at any price, and to believe what was true whether it was my former beliefs or not. In the end, I found that the doubts could be logically resolved. In the end, my faith was strengthened.
@ iAmLesbian Well, what exactly do you mean "evidence for the Bible?" If you mean the reliable transmission of the New Testament, there's excellent evidence for that. If you mean for the historicity of Jesus of Nazareth, there's as much evidence as there is for Tiberius Caesar in terms of extra-biblical historical sources.
And there's excellent historical evidence for the empty tomb, for example.
All peer-reviewed, and all accepted even by almost all skeptics (meaning historians skeptical of the Bible who specialize in first century middle-east / first century Europe).
I'd love to discuss the evidence with you if you're open to that.
Also, there are some great books, such as McDowell's _Evidence that Demands a Verdict_ (Sean, one of the guys on this video, helped with latest edition; his father wrote it), or Gary Habermas' _The Case for the Resurrection_.
The book that most helped me, back then, was C.S. Lewis _Mere Christianity_.
Sorry for the data-dump, but this is a topic very close to my heart.
@ Fear of hell is not the best reason to believe. But perhaps it might open the door to a journey that will lead you to a stronger faith with better reasons. I can tell you from my experience that God loves you where you are, as you are, and is willing to discuss it with you.
Isaiah 1:18 says (God speaking), “Come now, and let us reason together,”
Says the LORD,
“Though your sins are like scarlet,
They shall be as white as snow;
Though they are red like crimson,
They shall be as wool."
And Romans 5:8: "God demonstrates His love in this way: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us."
I will pray that you find the truth, and have the courage to seize it.
You probably did it wrong. People who properly did that are no more Christians. ;)
Amen! I was seeking truth and found faith also :) I Love Jesus
@@samael5782 An interesting hypothesis.
Over the years since then, I've been continually examining my methods to be sure. After, all, Paul tells us that if Jesus did not rise from the dead, then we are teaching lies and we are the most pathetic people on Earth! (1 Cor 15). So naturally, I want to know for certain that my methods are valid. Perhaps you can spot an error in my reasoning:
First, I always feared that science would destroy my faith. But when I resolved to know the truth, I tried to use science against my faith ... but it didn't work: There was no conflict. Science tells us about how things happen naturally, and it doesn't tell us about things that are supernatural ... it has nothing to say about that. I studied science at a famous and well-known school, so I knew science, and I can firmly say that science has no conflict with my faith.
Second, I turned to philosophy. I said that logic should show me holes in my faith. But I found that there is nothing illogical about my faith. I have to make one of two assumptions to begin with: That God is possible or that God is impossible. If I started with the second, it didn't lead anywhere. I later discovered that Tolstoy addressed this very thought in his book, "My Confession." Existentialism and Nihilism are an "end of the road" that we come to if we start with this assumption.
But if we start with the assumption that God is possible, we quickly find many reasons to believe that God is real, and that Jesus rose from the dead. However, I didn't want to beg the question, so I went further.
Third, I turned to literature. I read atheist writings, and I read theist writings. Atheist writings start with de-conversions, which are almost always something like, "I just stopped believing" or "I decided It wasn't true." Theist (especially Christian) writings come to a conversion at the end of a struggle. For example, when C.S. Lewis was told that he found God because he wished for God, he laughed and said, "Why would a mouse wish for a cat?"
Atheist writings were bold, scoffing, arrogant, putting themselves above the common people who believe "such nonsense." The most illogical thing I have ever read that purports to be serious was Russell's _Why I Am Not A Christian_. I asked atheists to explain Russell's point regarding the fig tree, and they usually say, "Oh, he was kidding." So it was impossible to take the atheists seriously.
But when I read of Lewis, who would say that he was forced to come to the inescapable conclusion, first that there was a god, and then that Jesus was that God, it is a very serious story indeed. There's no arrogance, no scoffing -- in fact, it's the act of looking for a way out that forced him to believe. See _Surprised by Joy_ or _Mere Christianity_ to see how he reasoned.
As I said, finding Tolstoy's _My Confession_, many years later, only served to confirm my reasoning. As Tolstoy say, x = x, a = a, 0 = 0. To solve the big problems without reaching an "identity" -- a useless answer -- we need a variable with both a finite and an infinite factor. And that can only be found in God and the Church. So Tolstoy followed the same method, and if I am wrong, I am in good company.
But who am I? Perhaps I err. So please, if you see a mistake, tell me. I would be glad to learn.
Looking forward to your response...
You've got to believe before "losing your faith".
Amazing discussion. Thanks for the civility on both sides. It’s refreshing.
Man i was the same way... i left Christianity myself .. then God brought me back 🙌
I just want to say about Sean McDowell - he, in my opinion, is probably the best person to talk to Jon. As I was listening to this, I kept thinking of how I would respond to someone like Jon, and I have to admit I don’t think I would be as graceful and loving as Sean. I need some work so that I would answer like Sean. Sean did such a great job! I can only pray that Jon would have a change of heart.
The very best way you could respond to Jon,
or anyone who'es skeptical,
would be to show what evidence exists for the claims, (you could still be 'graceful and loving')
which of course having been long time ,high profile christian Jon would would be very familiar
with already.
@paige the problem with Sean's position is that he still is trapped in the physicality of the resurrection. To those who believe in a physical resurrection it is impossible to imagine Jesus living inside them. They are limited to the view of life being limited to a physical object. It is logically incoherent with a metaphysical worldview.
Sean spoke the truth in love. Sometimes that is hard to do depending on on our own hearts. I always try to think this way. If I had grown up in the shoes of this person or that person why would it be hard for them to believe?
It had nothing to do with being graceful and loving and everything to do with not standing for one's convictions. Sean believes that a search for truth will lead a person TO Christ, not AWAY from Christ. But you had to really listen closely to discern that message. So yes; if he'd have just been straight-forward about what he truly believes about apostasy, few if any in these comments would be speaking well of him. But Jesus warned us in Luke 6:26 that whenever that's the case, it's never a good thing. Cumbaya will get us nowhere with God.
I agree with you Paige. God sends the right person at the right time...and Sean's manner is so engaging and respectful, and still very articulate about the message of the Gospel. He is very likable and knowledgeable.
Isn’t that just like God? He lets unbelievers deny Him without destroying them. He doesn’t feel threatened by them because the truth will eventually come out.
A relationship with God is so much like any love relationship. Trust is foundational…even when you don’t see Him or feel His presence.
Everything in life changes, the moment you realize God knows you!
was this guy ever born again? Did he ever make a personal decision for Christ? the reason I ask this did just get involved in Church culture.
I was born again and made a personal decision for Christ. Then as I became an adult I became an atheist. The 2 things that changed my mind was studying the Bible and other very similar religions that were around at the same time, and looking at how Christians behave in modern times.
And did he repent
Jon said he was touring with his band and did 'shows' every Sunday...'Shows?'
@@JL0007 You were not born again if you renounced Jesus Christ. The Holy Spirit does not dwell inside of you and just leave.
"They went out from us, but they were not of us;for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us." 1 John 2:19
@@hisservants8003 so my church was lying to me when they said I was born again?
In the last days ppl will depart from he faith--even denying the Lord. 2 Peter.
@Joseph Marton Have been happening for over 4 billion years....what's your point?
@@foreversurfingthenet Were you there 4 billion years ago that you are able to tell God about it?
Matthew 16:2-3 : 2 He answered and said to them, “When it is evening you say, ‘It will be fair weather, for the sky is red’; 3 and in the morning, ‘It will be foul weather today, for the sky is red and threatening.’ Hypocrites! You know how to discern the face of the sky, but you cannot discern the signs of the times.
@@SuperLastdayz Hmmm .....two elements to your question.......Was I there? obviously not....why, were you there? obviously not, so what's your point? There's more than enough evidence to demonstrate the age of our earth....
second element.. you ask ''are you able to tell god about it?''...First prove he exists at all ....then you can ask further questions.......
So many love living for Jesus with All the frills, But few there are who will die for Him. This Persecution of Christians will Cause a Mass Exodus. Its called "The Great falling away," and comes along with the persecution. The bible says about this time "That Because lawlessness abounds The love of many will grow cold." Jesus said If they hated Me they will hate you also. If these men knew Him at all they would've known that. But now that its flesh against flesh they are trying to save their life. Jesus also said blessed are those who lose their life for His sake cause They would find it, but those who Save their life will lose it. These are the last days spoken of, as The Generation of His wrath, The days of Vengeance, and many will fall for trying to save themselves in this present world, and taking The Mark about to be delivered by this world in order to Buy or Sell. It is the temptation coming on the entire world, and though our flesh is weak and afraid of Not going along to get along, but The Holy Spirit is willing, and well able to strengthen our heart, and spirit man for each moment we will be facing.
That doesn’t mean that’s the end of the story.
Justin, thank you 🙂
You moderate the best debates with Grace and elegance.
Great discussion! It seems to me that Jon simply wants to know truth regardless of what that is and I believe 100% that God will honor that search for truth because it comes from an honest heart. I said a prayer for him while watching this video that God will not abandon him and through his searching God will nudge him through the Holy Spirit toward His Objective Truth. I believe in my heart that Jon will come back to God eventually. Bless him for being honest with himself and others about his doubts. When he comes back I'm convinced he will be a strong warrior for Jesus Christ.
Thank you so much for a wonderful, humble, honest and respectful dialogue on all sides!!
This was a wonderful interview! I understand Jon’s position. Like he, I found the western cultural Christianity I knew to be lacking something, or rather, Someone. I tried to find acceptance within the Christian community, but I must say that what I have experienced in local congregations, in para-church organizations, and some Christian Internet groups was disheartening at the least, and bitterly competitive and vicious at the worst. I wonder whether these announcements by prominent Christians is not a denial of faith or belief in God, but rather a rejection of the religious system? I threw out the bath water, but kept the baby to re-coin a phrase. I have discovered the authentic Jesus in the wilderness, outside the camp, having occasional fellowship with other seeking believers who are also discontented with the idolatrous “other Jesus” of contemporary western Christianity. Fellowship in the Body of Christ begins with each believer being in fellowship with Jesus Christ first. Once we fellowship with Him on a deeply personal level, then we will have genuine fellowship with other believers independent of an organization. We become the living stones of Christ’s temple that HE is building. It is my opinion that institutional Christianity is as deadly to faith in God as rabbinical Judaism was, and is, toward Jesus. The religious Jews were threatened by Jesus’ disruption of their corrupt system of spiritual bondage. We can say the same is true of Christianity, at least in Europe and the Americas. Both are competitive with Christ for supremacy over the hearts of mankind. Jon, may I encourage you that God has promised if we will seek Him with all of our heart, we will find Him. May the peace and grace of the Lord Jesus Christ be with you.
Great comment!
@StAnthony Paradoxcally, it seems that you may be the one who is overly-critical and self-righteous, since you don't know me, nor my walk with Jesus Christ. This is typical of those who are threatened by the freedom others find who worship Jesus Christ in Spirit and in Truth. I have not abandoned Biblical doctrine to seek spiritual experience. I have not forsaken other believers, and I gather with others of faith. The term "church" has come to mean a brick and mortar building, much like the Jewish temple and not a living organism built by Christ Himself. I am not critical of those who remain in that system. That is their choice. But when I see such people as Jon who are truly seeking to understand God, my heart breaks that what he has seen and experienced has driven him away from faith in the One who loves Him. There are congregations where the Holy Spirit lives and works among believers. They are rare. Jon's journey has taken him to seek truth from men, who are questionable at best, but God's love for Jon is greater than any false teacher's deception. Sometimes we take a detour, but our Good Shepherd is faithful to find us and bring us back to His pasture. God has not failed Jon, but the system that he was involved in sure did! I'll leave this discussion now, dearest StAnthony, with the prayer that you will rest in the peace and grace of our Lord Jesus Christ.
@StAnthony I believe you just proved my point.😉
@StAnthony Oh, Saint Anthony, you’re back already?!! 🙂 Well, once again, you prove my point without my having to write a word. No, you are not genuinely asking. You are trying to provoke an angry response from me so that you may further accuse me to bolster your own position. Did your debate teacher never tell you that ad hominem attacks are employed when the argument is weak? You call me narcissistic. That is merely a modern psychological term for evil. (Oh, the discussion we might have had on the topic of psychology infiltrating the Church and diverting the Word of God!) I find it interesting that you resort to using it, and it is typically a narcissist’s method of throwing back on another what is in their own heart. Perhaps you could ask the Lord to examine yourself before hurling unwarranted accusations?
The point of this presentation is why did Jon Steingard find it necessary to make his announcement? Perhaps you might rewatch the video to see how three men of excellent character handle their difference of opinion enveloped within the grace of Jesus Christ. This website brings together believers and atheists who are both searching for truth and asking honest questions.They are watching our discussion. Many atheists have turned away from God because what they have witnessed and experienced within the religious system. As believers, you and I are to be careful of how we treat each other because it affects those who may be searching for God.
For me, this discussion will go no further. You seem to be contentious and looking for a fight. You will have to look elsewhere for this is not of Christ. Even so, if you profess faith in God through Jesus Christ you are my brother. I pray that He will bless you and that you may grow in the grace and knowledge of Him.
“Remind them of these things, charging them before the Lord not to strive about words to no profit, to the ruin of the hearers.”
2 Timothy 2:14
Joanne Canova, I am half-way through the interview and am loving it. I love your comment with its focus on our fellowship with Jesus being paramount to our having fellowship with each other as true believers. My first thought was that I could enjoy rich fellowship with you! When Jesus is trusted as Lord of our lives and experienced in reality as the Lover of our souls, members of His body anywhere in the world can immediately recognize their kinship, no matter how different their cultures or local church affiliations.
I had never heard of any of the people in this interview, but am encouraged by its tone and especially interested in what Josh McDowell’s son had to say about his father, his journey of faith, and his emphasis on the need for a foundation of truth. I heard Josh McDowell speak at Amsterdam ‘86 and had read his biography years ago.
I have high hopes for Jon (because of his desire for authenticity and his continued love for the Christians in his life). I pray that he will begin again, this time with the right foundation, free from the false and free to seek and to find the risen and living Jesus Himself to be the Way, the Truth, and the Life. True believers around him will care about him, love him, and, like Jesus, not give up on him.
I read with interest the thread in response to your comment. We can always learn from the way others see us as well as what their responses reveal about themselves. As Jesus was full of grace and truth, may our words always minister grace to the hearers (or readers). We never know who will be hearing (or reading), as you say. A Bible verse I had to recite with my class in third grade sticks with me, “Let the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength and my redeemer.” Truly, “out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks” (or writes). Let us shout to the mountain, “Grace, Grace, Grace!” We reign in life, said Paul, through the One, Jesus Christ, by two things (Romans 5:17)-“the abundance of grace and the GIFT of righteousness.” Wow! What an amazing thing it is to “discover the way of gladness,” isn’t it? And it’s for “whosoever will.” And “not of us, lest anyone should boast.” To HIM be all the glory! Those who know they have been rescued by Jesus and live by His life know this.
Excellent discussion. Productive and respectful. The way it should be.
what a classy exchange between these guys. so good to see.