Tolkien was brilliant at forging these hazy edges to his lore. There are clearly happenings going on in the east and south of Middle Earth. Our perspective is, sadly, forever limited in the same way a flashlight doesn't shed light on a whole Island. I'd like to imagine that the second and third ages of Middle Earth contain many lost stories in the east and south. Conflicts between peoples, acts of heroism, wonders, tragedies, machinations of Sauron and his servants, and of course many wonders. There are periods spanning hundreds of years where Sauron is present but his attention is seemingly occupied. What was he doing? Who knows, but it's very reasonable to assume he was busy with lands that don't make it into the Red book.
Once Sauron re-emerged following the War of the Last Alliance, the 3rd Age largely becomes the story of his master plan to destroy the Kingdoms in Exile, Gondor and Arnor, and finally destroy the Númenoreans. He came very close to succeeding more than once. The Wainriders were the most powerful foe Gondor faced although even if they hadn't been ambushed and defeated at the Battle of the Camp, I don't think they would have been able to seize Osgiliath, cross the Anduin, and threaten Minas Tirith. But it was certainly Gondor's darkest hour until the Battle of the Pelennor Fields.
The fact the Wainriders always seemed to attack Gondor and her Allies just at the most convenient times to do massive damage I think gives hint to Sauron's meddling. The fact they were so well armed, disciplined and later able to even make a type of Alliance with Harad and Rhun gives away these people were likely helped and directed by Sauron, be it directly or indirectly by maybe puppets or middle men. To many convivences pop up to me, and so I think they were a creation of Sauron's or were a tribe that were made a tool. Maybe a test run of his later Eastern plans/armies and allies.
I would love to see you cover the Balchoth more in-depth, as well as the First Age Easterlings, and the bearded axe-wielding Easterlings at the Battle of the Pelennor Fields. Sme fun speculation on their origins, technology and cultures would be cool as well!
The way the Wainriders disappeared is actually similar to the way the huns disappeared: once Attila was dead not even a year later his sons fought and lost a battle against numerous germanic tribes (Gepids and Ostrogoth were the majority) that wished freedom from the huns, now that the man who decades before subjugated them was dead. The sons of Attila will continue to rule small bands of loyalist for more of less a decade (as mercenary or fighting amongst themself), at the end of witch we can safely say the huns, as a politically and military entity, disappeared from known history.
And to think that the druedain the most persecuted people in all of middle earth survived with their culture and secrecy. Not to mention being almost naked and animistic.
Wow I never heard of these Easternlings specifically by ethic cultural name. Very well done I didn't hear of the other Tolkien scholars covering this topic. And I really like the ideas you have with Sauron being behind their rise to power and their sudden acts of aggression and alliances with Gondor's other enemies. It really gives Sauron this unseen intelligent ruthless cunning vibe similar to that of a spritual Principality in the Bible. Principalities being the unseen dark spiritual powers behind certain regions and nations. Like Gog of Magog the who is the Prince of Meshech & Tubal being the Principality behind the rise of the Roman Empire. Even Satan does the same tactics being the unseen force behind Pharaoh in the book of Jubilees (Though he is called Mastema there) and the king of Tyre in Ezekiel. Though Satan is above the all of the Principalities who fall underneath his authority including Gog of Magog which was his granted right in the book of Jubilees by Yahuah after he complained about all nephilim spirits being locked up and being unable to do his own lawless will on the earth. Sauron's behind the scene actions being similar to that of a Biblical Principality is very fitting and I think a very great addition Tolkien added even if unintentionally.
Although Tolkien hates alegory, I have noticed something quite interesting. Balchoth is translated as wild horde. Come to think of it, when the Mongol Empire of Jenghis Khan was divided, the westernmost part, located in Russia and Eastern Europe was called the Golden Horde. I find it rather interesting, even though Tolkien hated alegory.
Huns in our timeline were pushed to Europe due to a more aggressive tribe, the Yuan-Yuan. But your information makes me think more of the Magyar invading modern Hungary than the Huns since the Magyar were actually a loose mix of many different Asian raider tribes.
The huns too! That sort of big confederacy of lots of different groups even speaking different languages and worshipping different gods was sort of the done thing among big Steppe kingdoms for centuries. lots of different groups of people because the Steppe borders every other part of Eurasia, and low population density. lots of different cultural backgrounds scattered across the same area made tolerance the best course of action to keep people happy
@@thorshammer7883 Hard to say because it seems as if Gondor never asked them for help. It seems evil to me that the Elder Children of Ilúvatar would partake in killing the younger ones but I guess it sometimes happened nevertheless. But I also think that they would avoid if possible to do that. And also, geographical distance matters. The Noldor at least were busy with the men of Angmar.
@@Crafty_Spirit Problem is time periods and what they could have done. They literally could have aid them in other ways. Besides Elves fought humans who sided with the Dark Lords before. It's not a secret it just happened.
@@Crafty_Spirit Plus Legolas slaying Easternlings who sided with Sauron and fought for him in battle shouldn't be considered evil. It's self defense and fighting for the realm's safety from a aggressor who attacked first.
I have a question that I'd love you to answer in a video 🐙 Are there any references throughought the Tolkien legendarium that suggest the existence of sea monsters? Besides the Watcher of the Water at the Misty Mountains, I would imagine great sea farers like the Numenoreans or the corsairs of Umbar would have had inevitably encountered them.
At 3:31 you show the Eotheod up by the Grey Mountains, but claim they had fled to the Vales of the Anduin. The Vales were not near the Grey Mountains, but rather where the Gladden meets the Anduin where the Eotheod were at the time.
I have a question. Is there at any time that Sauron/witch king could've done to gondor what they did to arnor? Like take over what would become Rohan before the arrival of the rohirrim? Sided with Castamir during the Civil War? Is there any point in time?
Certainly, the wainriders were the huns of the middle earth universe, although better armoured and technologically more enhanced with chariots added into the mix. That said they very well gave Gondor a run for its money at several key points in its history and if it hadn't been for their ability to stay unified of purpose or not prone to weaknesses of clannish society might have finished gondor off before Sauron's return.
Tolkein was a bit ignorant here. Chariots were never effective and never used by Huns. They were obsolete in the Middle East in the first millenia BC and in Britain were of no value 2 millenia ago. Chariots were not a sign of technological advancement.
@@darkjudge8786 True, they didn't and donn't think he was being ignorant, just though it would make for a challenging weapon for an adversary to use against Gondor's infantry heavy armies. True they were no of use militarily after 200 bc in warfare across the board. Middle earth is a fantasy world and for armies of the west facing them for the first time is certainly a shock and technological upgrade in the enemies arsenal to use against Gondor.
@@lukasmeier9245 No. The siege of Angband was broken by Morgoth in the Battle of Sudden Flame without the Elves ever breaching Angband. If the Elves had won in the Battle of Unnumbered Tears, that would have reestablished the siege but still left them with no way to breach Angband. Glaurung survived that battle; he wouldn't die until about 30 years later. It's not exactly clear when Morgoth had other dragons ready to fight but they did take part in the Fall of Gondolin.
@@istari0 but isn't it expressely state that the Elves led by Gwindor had broken throught the gates beforw they were destroyed so the union could have right in after crushing the armies and if he had more dradons he would probably have used them.
Tolkien was brilliant at forging these hazy edges to his lore. There are clearly happenings going on in the east and south of Middle Earth. Our perspective is, sadly, forever limited in the same way a flashlight doesn't shed light on a whole Island.
I'd like to imagine that the second and third ages of Middle Earth contain many lost stories in the east and south. Conflicts between peoples, acts of heroism, wonders, tragedies, machinations of Sauron and his servants, and of course many wonders. There are periods spanning hundreds of years where Sauron is present but his attention is seemingly occupied. What was he doing? Who knows, but it's very reasonable to assume he was busy with lands that don't make it into the Red book.
Once Sauron re-emerged following the War of the Last Alliance, the 3rd Age largely becomes the story of his master plan to destroy the Kingdoms in Exile, Gondor and Arnor, and finally destroy the Númenoreans. He came very close to succeeding more than once. The Wainriders were the most powerful foe Gondor faced although even if they hadn't been ambushed and defeated at the Battle of the Camp, I don't think they would have been able to seize Osgiliath, cross the Anduin, and threaten Minas Tirith. But it was certainly Gondor's darkest hour until the Battle of the Pelennor Fields.
The fact the Wainriders always seemed to attack Gondor and her Allies just at the most convenient times to do massive damage I think gives hint to Sauron's meddling. The fact they were so well armed, disciplined and later able to even make a type of Alliance with Harad and Rhun gives away these people were likely helped and directed by Sauron, be it directly or indirectly by maybe puppets or middle men. To many convivences pop up to me, and so I think they were a creation of Sauron's or were a tribe that were made a tool. Maybe a test run of his later Eastern plans/armies and allies.
I would love to see you cover the Balchoth more in-depth, as well as the First Age Easterlings, and the bearded axe-wielding Easterlings at the Battle of the Pelennor Fields. Sme fun speculation on their origins, technology and cultures would be cool as well!
If only amazon just stuck to something easy and origional to do like the Easterling invasions or kin slaying storyline for a tv show
Best legendarium channel on UA-cam. You should have ten times as many subscribers. Thank you for the solid research.
The way the Wainriders disappeared is actually similar to the way the huns disappeared: once Attila was dead not even a year later his sons fought and lost a battle against numerous germanic tribes (Gepids and Ostrogoth were the majority) that wished freedom from the huns, now that the man who decades before subjugated them was dead.
The sons of Attila will continue to rule small bands of loyalist for more of less a decade (as mercenary or fighting amongst themself), at the end of witch we can safely say the huns, as a politically and military entity, disappeared from known history.
And to think that the druedain the most persecuted people in all of middle earth survived with their culture and secrecy. Not to mention being almost naked and animistic.
Hell yeah, love when I see a new Darth Gandalf video!
Wow I never heard of these Easternlings specifically by ethic cultural name. Very well done I didn't hear of the other Tolkien scholars covering this topic.
And I really like the ideas you have with Sauron being behind their rise to power and their sudden acts of aggression and alliances with Gondor's other enemies.
It really gives Sauron this unseen intelligent ruthless cunning vibe similar to that of a spritual Principality in the Bible. Principalities being the unseen dark spiritual powers behind certain regions and nations. Like Gog of Magog the who is the Prince of Meshech & Tubal being the Principality behind the rise of the Roman Empire. Even Satan does the same tactics being the unseen force behind Pharaoh in the book of Jubilees (Though he is called Mastema there) and the king of Tyre in Ezekiel.
Though Satan is above the all of the Principalities who fall underneath his authority including Gog of Magog which was his granted right in the book of Jubilees by Yahuah after he complained about all nephilim spirits being locked up and being unable to do his own lawless will on the earth.
Sauron's behind the scene actions being similar to that of a Biblical Principality is very fitting and I think a very great addition Tolkien added even if unintentionally.
Although Tolkien hates alegory, I have noticed something quite interesting. Balchoth is translated as wild horde. Come to think of it, when the Mongol Empire of Jenghis Khan was divided, the westernmost part, located in Russia and Eastern Europe was called the Golden Horde.
I find it rather interesting, even though Tolkien hated alegory.
Huns in our timeline were pushed to Europe due to a more aggressive tribe, the Yuan-Yuan. But your information makes me think more of the Magyar invading modern Hungary than the Huns since the Magyar were actually a loose mix of many different Asian raider tribes.
The huns too! That sort of big confederacy of lots of different groups even speaking different languages and worshipping different gods was sort of the done thing among big Steppe kingdoms for centuries. lots of different groups of people because the Steppe borders every other part of Eurasia, and low population density. lots of different cultural backgrounds scattered across the same area made tolerance the best course of action to keep people happy
No they weren't.
Magyars also fled from the Pechenegs from the east. Its a common occurence in Eurasia where tribes moves to the west from escaping others.
@@strider8662 always Europe having to get the trash nobody wants?
They might have also been inspired by the Hyksos based on their reliance on chariots and nomadic lifestyle
Not so nomadic as rulers of Egypt+
I wager that they'll be featured in Rings of Power (in a future season) given that they're mentioned in the LOTR Appendix
Would love to see the Wainriders in a show.
Won't happen unless you're a rangs of Prime fan.
@@sirlionheart4614 Biggest flop when it comes to hype, budget and acting.
Completely ruined everything.
Meanwhile the Elves & Dwarves sleep while another human faction under Sauron's unseen influence has literally set half the country on fire.
They probably were not keen on fighting Men by standard policy
@@Crafty_Spirit
Even if allies may request aid in their darkest times or some form of proactive support then just doing nothing in apathy?
@@thorshammer7883 Hard to say because it seems as if Gondor never asked them for help. It seems evil to me that the Elder Children of Ilúvatar would partake in killing the younger ones but I guess it sometimes happened nevertheless. But I also think that they would avoid if possible to do that. And also, geographical distance matters. The Noldor at least were busy with the men of Angmar.
@@Crafty_Spirit
Problem is time periods and what they could have done. They literally could have aid them in other ways. Besides Elves fought humans who sided with the Dark Lords before. It's not a secret it just happened.
@@Crafty_Spirit
Plus Legolas slaying Easternlings who sided with Sauron and fought for him in battle shouldn't be considered evil. It's self defense and fighting for the realm's safety from a aggressor who attacked first.
great video!
YESSSSSSSSSS!!!!!!! I've been waiting for this video!!!! Frick Yeah!!!!
going out for a ride, Hun? could you pick up some bounty?
I have a question that I'd love you to answer in a video 🐙
Are there any references throughought the Tolkien legendarium that suggest the existence of sea monsters? Besides the Watcher of the Water at the Misty Mountains, I would imagine great sea farers like the Numenoreans or the corsairs of Umbar would have had inevitably encountered them.
At 3:31 you show the Eotheod up by the Grey Mountains, but claim they had fled to the Vales of the Anduin. The Vales were not near the Grey Mountains, but rather where the Gladden meets the Anduin where the Eotheod were at the time.
awesome vid enjoyed it mate looking forward to the next vid😀😀😀😀
What was the shadow that passed over the fellowship on their way to carahddras? “Whatever it was, it was fast. And not with the wind..”
I love these Videos
Great video, very informative!
I have a question. Is there at any time that Sauron/witch king could've done to gondor what they did to arnor?
Like take over what would become Rohan before the arrival of the rohirrim?
Sided with Castamir during the Civil War?
Is there any point in time?
Good one 👍🏼
Can you make a video on the new shadow?
I think of Tolkien as actual history.
Certainly, the wainriders were the huns of the middle earth universe, although better armoured and technologically more enhanced with chariots added into the mix. That said they very well gave Gondor a run for its money at several key points in its history and if it hadn't been for their ability to stay unified of purpose or not prone to weaknesses of clannish society might have finished gondor off before Sauron's return.
Tolkein was a bit ignorant here. Chariots were never effective and never used by Huns. They were obsolete in the Middle East in the first millenia BC and in Britain were of no value 2 millenia ago. Chariots were not a sign of technological advancement.
@@darkjudge8786 True, they didn't and donn't think he was being ignorant, just though it would make for a challenging weapon for an adversary to use against Gondor's infantry heavy armies. True they were no of use militarily after 200 bc in warfare across the board. Middle earth is a fantasy world and for armies of the west facing them for the first time is certainly a shock and technological upgrade in the enemies arsenal to use against Gondor.
Could you maybe make a video about what if the Union of Maedros won the battle of unnumbred tears?
Another centuries lasting siege of Angband, sadly without succes again.. it would just prolongue the inevitable end..
They'd still have no way of successfully attacking Angband and once Morgoth had flying dragons, the elves would have been routed.
@@istari0 Hadn't they already broken through it's gates and Glaurung was done for.
@@lukasmeier9245 No. The siege of Angband was broken by Morgoth in the Battle of Sudden Flame without the Elves ever breaching Angband. If the Elves had won in the Battle of Unnumbered Tears, that would have reestablished the siege but still left them with no way to breach Angband. Glaurung survived that battle; he wouldn't die until about 30 years later. It's not exactly clear when Morgoth had other dragons ready to fight but they did take part in the Fall of Gondolin.
@@istari0 but isn't it expressely state that the Elves led by Gwindor had broken throught the gates beforw they were destroyed so the union could have right in after crushing the armies and if he had more dradons he would probably have used them.
Jeez. These both mean different things in Scotland 😂
Was looking for this comment :D
@@TheRedBook Your videos are top notch 👌
@@TheRedBook I'm one of your subscribers!
Algormancy!
The Hephthalites or White Huns.