Technically speaking there was once a religion that worshiped Eru, the religion of the Numenorians. Their church was fairly accurately based of the function and structure of the Catholic Church (Albeit to a very simple degree.) and it was almost exclusive to them. Until Sauron corrupted it and destroyed it causing the downfall of Numenor. Keep in mind most of the races didnt have an actual need for religion as they knew exactly what would happen to them. The Elves knew, the Orcs knew, the Goblins didnt care, Trolls are too stupid, Dragons are Morgoth's followers as are Baurogs, its rly only Hobbits and Men who had anything we would call a religion simply because most of them didnt know anything about Eru, at least as of the Third Age. The fall of Numenor was so long ago most dont even know (Or care.) about its religion.
@@Elia-fn8jv No. As I said earlier, the dwarves have great reverence towards their creator, the Vala Aulë, whom they call Mahal ("Maker" in Khuzdul), but they worship Eru like Elves and the Free Men. They don't have a different religion.
@@Elia-fn8jv Not so much if you think about it: the dwarves worshipped a Vala more than the others, but also the Elves did so with Varda/Elbereth, the wife of Manwë and creator of stars. They just focus more on a Vala, but it's the same religion.
@@Owlusirie hmm, could you say Catholicism and Protestantism are the same simply because they worship Christ? One puts more emphasis on the Lady Maria than the other. Bottom line they can ultimately worship the same God but still be different with customs...
“Most witches don’t believe in gods. They know that the gods exist, of course. They even deal with them occasionally. But they don’t believe in them. They know them too well. It would be like believing in the postman.” - Terry Pratchett
What about the One who created everything? Do they believe in Him? The One who’s truly worthy of being called a god. The Only God for many across the world.
Amazing vid and it's impressive how you regularly discuss parts of Tolkien other channels never touch. I am a Roman Catholic so yes all of the Catholic elements of Tolkien's work are hard to ignore.
@@centeura1435 No one said anything about an allegory... there's simply Catholic elements and lots of typology in Tolkien's Middle-Earth works. He even mentioned in his own letters about the Lambas bread being similar to the Eucharist; which was of course by design, on his part.
There are a ton of dates in LOTR related to catholicism aswell. And I think Tolkien didn't like explicit religious allegory, if he didn't like allegory then what is the whole tale of Numenor but the Fall of Atlantis?
@@centeura1435Eru Illuvatar is quite literally the Christian God. "they say that the One will himself enter into Arda, and heal Men and all the Marring from the beginning to the end." He himself is portraying himself as a historian of sorts, and places the modern age at the 6th or 7th Age.
One thing you left out was the possible survival of Melkorism into the 4th Age. Tolkien's abortive sequel to LoTR, "The New Shadow" certainly seems to hint at it taking root in Gondor in secret, under King Eldarion.
10:06 Actually Melkorism answered the question that men had about the universe and the afterlife,it is said in the Silmarillion that Sauron replaced the religion of Iluvatar in Numenor with Melkorism and all that was attributed to Iluvatar was instead attributed to Morgoth. And there was the religion of the dwarves that worshipped Aule and they called him Mahar
No, the dwarves have great reverence towards their creator, the Vala Aulë, whom they call Mahal ("Maker" in Khuzdul), but they worship Eru like Elves and the Free Men. They don't have a different religion.
@@WiggaMachiavelli Thanks for the correction, I'm not a native English speaker. However, I strongly suggest you to calm down and have respect towards other people. I didn't offend anyone (and surely not you), so I see no need to keep that arrogant tone of yours.
Since I have only read the original book about five times, I have never been able to fully analyze it, neither have I wished to. But one very obvious reference to a religion still being practiced is when Frodo and Sam are taken captive by Faramir's men. About dinner time (or so I think), he explains to the Hobbits that they sit and face the west (or some other direction) and are silent for a few solelmn moments. Just from the top of my head, I think that's a definite ritual from a religion. They sit in silent prayer and remember those who came before them. That's my interpretation, being generally non-religious myself.
also feel it is worth mentioning that in the 'new shadow' the book about the fourth age, even if it never went far or is canon, it is interesting that it seems Men were adopting Melkorism again.
In Middle Earth, the "religion" of the protagonists isnt recognized as such because its just *how the world works* which Tolkien modeled after Medieval and Antique Christian Neo-Platonic -magic- -theurgy- philosophy
I think you made an excellent video from start to finish. I enjoyed it. It caused me to think a lot and learn about new ways to look at the lore of Middle Earth. Thanks!
It would be more worth for you if you where able to see the connection to liberalism and all it different root´s today where it is depraving nations...
😄 Lol , the Scientology bit there at the end! Very well, researched and spoken, Excellent, informative and very entertaining Middle-Earth video. Thank you.
@@Lawrence_Talbot not really Christianity well at least Early Christianity didn't spread via violence but through trade networks in Rome and became popular to te lower classes so much so it later became the official religion. (The whole notion on through violence part comes from late antiquity to the Medieval Period where Christianity did at times spread and converted people through violence.)
@@mephistodood I mean Early Islam spread through Conquest but I don't think that makes Muslims from the period any different from other groups. (And thats also generalising as people did convert through peaceful means as well)
@@forickgrimaldus8301except early christians were so violent and closed so many schools and temples and burned so many books, most Classical literature was preserved in Persian Sassanid Iraq and only got back to Europe via Arab translations. Its an inherently violent missionary religion, its why its only spread across the world with enforcement by the colonial empires
Ironically most of the Guys in Middle Earth are probably what we would Call Deists as in people who believe God can be proved through reason, I mean when you have Gandalf a literal angel guarding you its hard to justify the existence of Churches to worship Eru because why create Religious practices when you know God is gonna send his angel wizard men without the need of rituals, this isn't to say LOTR is a Deist work obviously not.
I didn’t know Morgoth called himself the “giver of gifts.” Maybe this is where Saruman get inspiration for also putting on the likeness and calling himself Annatar which means “lord of gifts”
Perhaps the sequel of lotr, 'the new shadow' has Melkorism as a more metaphorical 'Dark Lord'/'evil influence', those that follow Melkorism anyway. It'd make sense that way, as religion has a huge role in the world, belief is a powerful thing, even if that belief is wrong.
Just me who had to stop reading the book for a moment to laugh my ass off when Sauron told Ar-Pharizon about Melkorism for the first time? I think that was his first dialogue in the entire book and it was so so dramatic lol.
Awesome video. . There is clear difference between men and other races, because the Valar knew Iluvatar, and maiar, elves and dwarves knew the Valar, and orcs knew Melkor… though men in the first age saw some of the Valar, most didn’t throughout the second and the third ages… so they are the ones to eventually have religious beliefs (in place of direct experiences). . As for Melkorism, I see Two Main themes: - service to Melkor (to himself); and - active avoidance/disturbance of service to others (compassion, solidarity, cooperation, love of neighbors etc). . And service to Melkor (later to Sauron) has Two Main aspects: - extending his power (because others obey and do his bidding; they Are his feet and hands); and - submitting to his will (there’s not much more you can offer beyond human sacrifice; if you’ve got there, then you’re definitely and deeply in…). . I Strongly Suggest that this is what Happens in Reality (there are spiritual beings who are strongly self-serving and manipulative/controlling of others to their ends)… and I’d still add: Human Sacrifice (Human Blood and Suffering) is Vital Energy, and Vital Energy is a resource, it’s fuel, it really Allows beings to do stuff using this energy… . So that last bit is what explains the satanic human sacrifice thing, and it could be so (work the same way) in Ëa and Arda (dunno if Tolkien explicitly wrote about this, but I suspect he did, somewhere)… . And this, I believe, is the fundamental of all dark lords in all of fiction and fantasy: service of self and manipulation of others into service of the [dark] lord, of the boss.
I think it is worth pointing out that there are contemporary religions whose adherents believe the words of their holy text literally and any new human knowledge that conflicts with that text is, at best, ignored. There are also people whose religious practices clearly show their only real interest is in making themselves richer at the expense of their followers.
U just owned the religious sir let me wiggle my fedora towards you for this based AND new level of insight I’ve never seen a view like this ever represented anywhere ever my socks are knocked off sir
@@Lawrence_Talbot That's very much an exception though, especially demonstrable with Catholicism due to how it's actively changed in light of new discoveries and findings. I don't think it's good to belittle an entire faith based on an extremist outlier. Perhaps you were just referring to said outlier, and I apologize if that was the case and I am misinterpreting your statement.
You have to wonder why so many disparate civilizations all over the globe and throughout time, all came to the conclusion that if they brutally tortured/murdered children/babies, as a “sacrifice” to some unseen other, the unseen other would look kindly on their gesture of fealty, and bestow great things upon them, almost magically. Egypt, Rome, Carthage, Mayans, Aztecs, etc.
Well the point of sacrifice is giving something valuable up in the hope that what you're sacrificing to will be able to alter your situation. And what is more precious, and more valuable, then the future and your heitage.
@@brianboru2762 Exactly. Satan claims that which is most precious, as his hatred for God’s creation is boundless and he seeks to afflict the most damage in his ongoing war against God.
Wait, to say that all men besides the Edain followed Melkorism in the first age is gotta be a colossal exaggeration. Since it is mentioned in Silmarillion, that when the War of Wrath begun, many humans ignored the call to arms from Morgoth as well as from the Valar. My understanding is that while the Edain were the first to reject Melkor, they were not the last and by the end of the first age there were the Edain, the evil men who served Morgoth and then there were those, who were neutral. Those latter were the savage tribes who lived in the east or south and after the war, the remainders of Morgoth's men, presumably owing to their craftsmanship gained in his service, became kings in many of those tribes.
Back in the beginning of the First Age, was it Melkor who went to the men or was it Sauron? I don't think Melkor was able to take any form other than the terrible form he was in when he fled Valinor with Ungoliant. That's why he was able to be permanently crippled by Fingolfin during their legendary duel. Also, "The Giver of Gifts" definitely sounds like a Sauron thing. He would later take on a beautiful form and present himself to the elves of Eregion as "Annatar, The Lord of Gifts". I think it was Sauron who went to the men as Melkor's servant.
It was Melkor. The source is in book ten "Morgoth's Ring" in the "Tale of Adanel". So, I think that if Christopher Tolkien wrote that it was Melkor, we should assume he's right. 😉 Besides: Why should he not be able to assume a fair form that early (first sunlight) in the First Age? Sauron lost the ability to assume a fair form ONLY AFTER he had A) created his ring and poured much of his essence into it AND his physical form was destroyed on Numenor. Morgoth by contrast at this point cannot have finished creating his Ring AND he never lost his physical form (he had previously only been chained).
A lot of the more obviously Catholic scenes and characterizations were the ones, coincidentally or not, that Jackson and co changed or omitted from their version
You’re not one of those Melkor Reformists are you? I ask because you didn’t capitalise Melkor or end with the traditional “May War and Desolation be upon you and your foes.” I was raised old school and reject all those Sauronist reforms. May War and Desolation be upon you and your foes.
《‘Sit now there,’ said Morgoth, ‘and look out upon the lands where evil and despair shall come upon those whom you have delivered to me. For you have dared to mock me, and have questioned the power of Melkor, Master of the fates of Arda. Therefore with my eyes you shall see, and with my ears you shall hear, and nothing shall be hidden from you.’》 J.R.R. Tolkien - The Children of Húrin, Chapter III, “The Words Of Húrin And Morgoth”
2:04 Two questions, or three. 1) Would the religion of the Gneezle's in The Secret of the Swamp (Carl Barks) possibly qualify as some form of Melkorism or Baal worship? 2) Would you agree that this story is a good candidate for one of the most or even _the_ most Tolkienian story of the Disney franchise? 3) Would you agree that Gneezles are kind of inbetween the Goblins of Goblintown and elves of Elrond or Thranduil in behaviour? Apart, obviously, for their idol worship, which as Melkorism is clearly Goblin only and elves "no no"?
Interesting. I guess Melkor is a Lucifer, but also a Prometheus. Certainly an interesting character. I can see why some people might even find him sympathetic. I mean, most people would instinctively side with Prometheus and think that Zeus is a jerk in that myth.
Sarcasm: Meat, getting rid of undiserable's, Unification of the plebs, etc. Serious: Evil corrupts so easly because it makes things easy. After all: Why shoudnt you take the gold, the woman, eat the corpses of your enemies. Because it is wrong? According to who? A none existing god that even if he exist does nothing. Simple thruth is. Its easy to be evil. Being good takes constant effort.
I've just read the Silmarillion, and most of this doesn't fit that or anything not published posthumously many many years later? In the First Age many men simply ignored Melkor and many joined the elves and helped them. The followers of Morgoth were a specific group of humans recruited in secret amongst the elves human allies, and then betrayed them mid battle.
No, it doesn't. "Melkorism" as it is called in this video only exists maybe a few dozen years at most before Numenor is destroyed. Nowhere else does it actually exist.
@@dinmavric5504 Its a major plot point in The Silmarillion that during one of the big battles of the First Age, that two human warlords had sided with Melkor/Morgoth in secret. I've recently read the book, and dont own copies of the extended Legendarium. Yes in the section about Numenor, Sauron's influence only takes hold on the island with a particular king, but its implied he's there for quite some time as it was several kings previous that his armies were defeated and he switched to intrigue while posing as a faithful new vassal and advisor
I mean one of the big draws of Melkorism as a religion, was that Melkor actually *did* things for his worshippers. He would get involved, give them knowledge and power. The Valar, and Eru generally were just kind of... derelict. They never did anything to really help anyone and the few times they did intervene they tended to leave it so late that their interventions by necessity had to be earth-shattering calamities. Maybe I'm alone in this, but whilst I don't like the whole evil nature of Melkor, I found him to be a far more compelling and symathetic character than any of Tolkein's 'good guys'.
Gods, pal. There's a reason why Kratos, Asura, Tanya and Guts hate them all. Melkor and Sauron are bastards, and the Valar likely aren't much better. At least they're not raping people like the Olympians and Annunaki.
I'm mostly with you, except that I vastly prefer the Valar's dereliction to the likes of Morgoth or Sauron. I'd like them better had they not let their criminals run rampant over Middle Earth for entire ages of the world before finally bestirring themselves to do something about it.
Morgoth is responsible for almost all of the suffering and corruption in the world, from the very start of the creation of Arda he ruined and polluted and corrupted, anything good ever he could not stand, and thus had to destroy, he has killed so many and destroyed so much that you entire comment is frankly hilariously stupid. and it isn't up to interpretation, read the Silmarillion ffs
@@greendogg83 Clearly you didn't get the point of Nathan's comment. Morgoth is evil, that's not under debate. But the main reason he managed to corrupt and destroy so many is because the Valar are incompetent and neglectful. They mostly stayed in their perfect eden in Valinor, and in general seem incapable of preventing and fixing the bulk of Morgoth's damage to the world. A lot of the problems faced by Elves, Dwarves and Men are also of the Valar and/or Eu's own making.
@@DeathMessenger1988 Indeed! In fact there's a line during the creation of the world where Eru basically tells Melkor that no theme that exists in the music doesn't find its source in him, and thus whatever discord or evil Melkor did was ultimately in Eru's own service to glorify him further which... yes, matches Catholic theology but also kind of makes Eru... the source of all evil? And basically evil? At the least when Melkor was being evil, he was being... active, unlike the Valar who basically just sat off except when the Elves were in danger because I guess Eru and the Valar just really loved Elves more than Men. (I mean, death as the Gift of Men, seriously Eru? You were asking for the Numenoreans to try what they did...)
“Melkorism only existed in Numenor for 50 years but led to swift societal decline, seeing the numenorians forsake all of the traditions of their ancestors”. This sounds exactly like the current state of the US.
@@robertmiller9735 I don’t know if that’s how they necessarily saw themselves. They knew good and well that the old king’s were friendly with elves and respected the Valar’s injunction on sailing westward and essentially wrote these notions off as misguided. This type of arrogance and disregard for ancient wisdom is likewise on display today, largely from the left.
What I dislike about "Melkorism", is that there is absolute hatred against Melkor after the first age, by all non-Easterling men. So Númenor woud never do anything in the name of Melkor, Sauron converted them by convincing that THEY are gods, not him nor his deceased master!
First, Melkor is a highly ranked angel, not a god. Eru Illuvatar is the only god of Middle Earth - forgive my spelling there. Second, it is a fake religion because it is based on knowing lies of a being who knows, with absolute certainty, that they are lies. Melkor knows he's not going to give his followers any of the things he promises them, and that he *CANNOT* give them most of the things he promises them. The religion is based on the worship of a being who shares a name with Melkor but who is vastly more powerful - but no more benevolent - than the actual Melkor.
@@richardkenan2891 Wait is he though? Originally he was considered a Valar (to be considered a Valar you'd have to be one of the Ainur that first descended into Arda) and still technically remained one, just not in title. And if the Elves called the Valar, well, the Valar, and Men called the Valar "gods" that technically makes Melkor and the 14 Valar, gods. The second point you wrote in your comment is the reason why it's not considered a real religion. Real life religions are based on beliefs that often aren't proven, that's basically faith. However Melkorism based itself on both blaten lies and a real thing (the existence of Melkor himself being the only real thing).
@@grassblock7668 There is only one true God in Ea and Arda, and that is Eru Illuvatar. The valar are archangels. Maiar are angels. Melkor was the most powerful vala. Melkor is jealous and envied Eru, when the valar created the Ea and Arda thru their music in accordance to the plans of Eru. So Melkor started sowing his discord thru his music, against to the plan of Eru. So there was a chaos in Arda. Melkorism is a cult.
@@grassblock7668 yeah but there is the supreme god, so supreme, only he is worthy of this title. He made the song of creation and ended it. Melkor as an angel is more like satan as fallen angel.
it`s a very religious tale , but the religion is natural not structured like ours today ! and yes I agree about melkor and sauron ! melkor comes across as satan , only a more personal satan as he actually does harm personally , after his fall , his slave sauron steps it to take his place ! but both are defeated by those they would enslave ! but judging by tolkiens writings evil rises up again in the fourth age ! hopefully a lesser evil than sauron ! which would make sense , as evil as sauron was , he was a lesser evil when compared to his master !
Melkorism sounds like Abrahamic religion. “Worship me and not the other guys”. Perhaps a cult is a better description, than religion, since Melkor knew deep down he was a member of the Valar and knew Illuvatar was real
I mean, comparing Abrahamic faiths to Melkorism on that base alone is sort of like comparing a consensual marriage to being trapped with a (I hate that I even know this word) yandere on the basis that in both cases, they demand some type of exclusivity. In fact, while I don't know if the same can be said of Islam, in the old Hebrew scriptures, God often compares his relationship with Israel and Judah to a marriage with the people of these nations as His children, whereas in Christianity, the Church is literally talked about as a bride waiting urgently for the day when she will be united to her Bridegroom, that being Christ, God the Word and Son, while the idea of individual Christians being the body of Christ hearkens back to the old concept of a man and wife becoming one flesh in the form of marriage, as we are the collective Church. ...Also, it just occurs to me that I may have just put the image in your head of Morgoth and/or Sauron being a yandere. I am so sorry.
At least Melkorism isn't as cunning, tempting, alluring, and decepting as the occult theologies and religions the Watcher Fallen Angels of the book of Enoch sprang up which they continue onwards in different forms after the Flood such the pagan and secret religions. The Watchers had alot more people willingly following their fraud occult theology then Melkor did. If you follow how the Watchers did things it was pretty horrifying how people would accept them so willingly. And all Mastema (Satan) had to do was adopt their evil legacies and paint them a little bit differently and spread them once more after they were gone and imprisoned in 1st Enoch and Jubilees with the help of the disembodied demonic spirits he was allowed to have authority over in Jubilees. Where Melkor exceeds in brute force and power Satan succeeds in deceit and cunning indirect manipulation despite being bound by the strongest Archangel Michael.
@@blackbeard1988 Okay then I was wondering what the intent of that comment was. The name "Mastema" is in the book of Jubilees and if searched in Blue Letter Bible it means enmity or to hate which is very close to what the title of "Satan" means.
Melkorism… Mmm sounds oddly familiar to abrahamic religions. Do what i say and you will be safe. I am true the other is a fake. Do it not and you will suffer. Great stuff
What’s your view of the truth then? How should the true God let us know that He alone is worthy of worship according to you? You have absolutely no real knowledge of what the Abrahamic religions teach if that’s how you view them.
Melkorism is definitely a real religion. Not only does it have a functioning clergy and worshipping rituals, but there's also the demonstration of "miracles" as well. Sure, it was more of a bargaining-type of religion. And definitely it doesn't fit in the fabric of our religions as well. But there are fundamental elements such as dogmatism and worship that can classify Melkorism as religion. When saying that this is a scam, that can also apply to any religion as well. I am not trying to devolve this into a deist-atheist arguement, but I fail to see why Melkorism couldn't be considered a religion at all. Even if it's evil and "scammy".
@@robertmiller9735 Some forms of atheism act as pseudo-religions, the worship of Reason or Science for one. Take progressivism for example, its basically a corrupted form of Christianity, with God being taken out of it, but the shell remaining.
Scumbag Iluvatar. He creates Men, offers no guidance, and when a fallen Vala steps into that void to guide them instead, punishes them for not knowing better by dooming them to finite life and calling it a "gift". It gets worse when you realise everything Melkor did was part of Iluvatar's plan, since he tells Melkor at the end of the music of the Ainur that every evil Melkor tried to wreak helped achieve Iluvatar's overarching goal.
The Gift of Men was almost certainly intended from the beginning, that aspect of the story is almost certainly false. Though the myth itself is likely stretched or altered from its original form due to being only orally passed down for so long. And while death in our own world is an abhorrent doom which is widely feared, in the context of Eä it is most certainly a gift as men are implied to go to a wonderful, heaven-like place upon death. Though the exact nature of such things is unknown. I do think it's unfair to entirely malign Iluvatar based on this myth, especially since it is almost certainly changed drastically from its original telling. I also think Eru has a subtle, but omnipresent influence upon Arda that acts as a sort of guide towards goodness, as demonstrated by Gollum's fall, or more directly by Olorin's resurrection as Gandalf The White.
On page one of the Ainulindale (Music of the Ainur) it says: (Illuvatar to the Ainur) "And since I have kindled you with the Flame Imperishable, ye shall show forth your powers in adorning this theme, each with his own thoughts and devices, if he will. But I will sit and hearken and be glad that through you great beauty has been wakened into song". Eru says that the Ainur have their own thoughts and devices so they can do as they wish. An example of free will. However the later half of that paragraph speaks to Tolkiens philosophy on good and evil. Consider the One Rings temptation. It harkens back to Abrahamic myths like the Garden of Eve- Original Sin and Classical myths like the Story of Persephone. How at the very end, when the temptation and curiosity is at its peak, humans are inherently flawed and prone to fail. But we also have the free will and ability to do what's good, which is what gives our lives meaning. Tolkien had a philosophy that good doesn't always win, but often relies on evil to enact it's will, or evil is self destructive. Frodo gives into his temptation at the crack of mount doom (an evil), and it's his mercy for Gollum which acts as providence through Illuvatar (Tolkien referred to this as "Eucotrastophe" though it does not negate the deeds of the hero) who makes gollum dance off the edge into the fires. There's a reason Humans were referred to as the children of Illuvatar, who were granted the flame Imperishable and who were able to create. Essentially Eru actually did very little, and it's Melkor who wishes to dominate all wills. Melkor was essentially granted raw power, he's said to have hot desire. And he grew prideful and lustful to have control over others. Also according to Catholic theology, good and evil aren't two equal forces, but is a lack of, or the corruption of good. And actually it was the marring of Arda which corrupted man and made them aware of death, and begin to fear it, aswell as sew jealousy into their heart for the immortality bestowed to the elves. This reminds me of original sin, when we were thrown out of the garden of unity, and became aware of our nakedness. Tolkien's work definitely has free will, Tolkien would not come up with the word Eucotrastophe if it had no relevance or utility in his work. Eru wishes to create a beautiful song through free will, and essentially gets it.
Also Satan offered Christ all kingdoms on earth but Christ would rather the confused freedom than domination and full control. Free will is extremely important.
That's Christianity for you. Make humans susceptible to "sin", punish them for eating a fruit, when that fruit was the only means for them to know that disobedience was wrong, etc. Omniscient god sets it all up and then punishes humans for doing what was in his knowledge and in his plan right from the start. What a pychopath.
Illuvatar doesn't interfere. Except in the case of Numenor. Also, yes, to a being that created a whole universe Arda is more or less a sandbox. Why would you want to personify a God when you know that a being like that would not care for ants? No... Illuvatar is small time compared to Yahwe and these other fairies. He's just a deist God who on ocassion might communicate with the Valar.
I don't agree with your definition of religion. For me, the purpose of religion is not to answer the unanswered. A religion is, though not exclusively, a story or a set of stories which provide instructions on how to live your life "properly". So like, imagine the moral of a storybook, but applied to its largest scale. Religions, for better or for worse, try to provide guidance to an otherwise ignorant person. As Melkorism does teach those who worship Melkor how to live their lives "properly", I'd call it a religion.
Maybe Melkor was the only sane entity in the entire Tolkien mythos . Eru stated plainly that everything that took place in or outside of his creation arda happened because he had preordained it . Melkor knew Eru better than any other being . Maybe rebelling against Eru and his spineless suckups was the only sane and decent way ( doomed to failure of course ) to free Eru's creations/victims from the the evil that Eru , by his own admission , was inflicting on them all .
Eru created everything, which means he also created evil. He needed an embodiment of evil so he allowed Melkor to go in his rebellious alt emo teen phase and to stay in it forever, he ain't that omnibenevolent of a god now is he?
On page one of the Ainulindale (Music of the Ainur) it says: (Illuvatar to the Ainur) "And since I have kindled you with the Flame Imperishable, ye shall show forth your powers in adorning this theme, each with his own thoughts and devices, if he will. But I will sit and hearken and be glad that through you great beauty has been wakened into song". Eru says that the Ainur have their own thoughts and devices so they can do as they wish. An example of free will. However the later half of that paragraph speaks to Tolkiens philosophy on good and evil. Consider the One Rings temptation. It harkens back to Abrahamic myths like the Garden of Eve- Original Sin and Classical myths like the Story of Persephone. How at the very end, when the temptation and curiosity is at its peak, humans are inherently flawed and prone to fail. But we also have the free will and ability to do what's good, which is what gives our lives meaning. Tolkien had a philosophy that good doesn't always win, but often relies on evil to enact it's will, or evil is self destructive. Frodo gives into his temptation at the crack of mount doom (an evil), and it's his mercy for Gollum which acts as providence through Illuvatar (Tolkien referred to this as "Eucotrastophe" though it does not negate the deeds of the hero) who makes gollum dance off the edge into the fires. There's a reason Humans were referred to as the children of Illuvatar, who were granted the flame Imperishable and who were able to create. Essentially Eru actually did very little, and it's Melkor who wishes to dominate all wills. Melkor was essentially granted raw power, he's said to have hot desire. And he grew prideful and lustful to have control over others. Also according to Catholic theology, good and evil aren't two equal forces, but is a lack of, or the corruption of good. And actually it was the marring of Arda which corrupted man and made them aware of death, and begin to fear it, aswell as sew jealousy into their heart for the immortality bestowed to the elves. This reminds me of original sin, when we were thrown out of the garden of unity, and became aware of our nakedness. Tolkien's work definitely has free will, Tolkien would not come up with the word Eucotrastophe if it had no relevance or utility in his work. Eru wishes to create a beautiful song through free will, and essentially gets it.
Tough to not call all religions a scam then. Answers, comfort, or purpose you say, but I haven't seen a religion yet that provides those things without being based on lies or clinging to the limited understanding of the world by our ancient ancestors.
I feel that is an unfair view. With Judeochristian religions, many followers interpret much of the sources to be metaphorical rather than literal, and use it more as a moral framework for their world. There are also Eastern religions like Buddhism or Confucianism, which are atheistic in nature and focus primarily on either the after life and how to live a good life, or how to be a moral person who upholds a moral society. That is not to say that many religions are not scams, extreme subsections of Christianity are absolutely revolting in their obvious deception or denial of reality, and more obvious examples like The Cult of the North Korean Ruling Family, or scientology easily come to mind. Still, I think most people follow religions out of a genuine belief and desire for good, even if such things can come across as irrational in our modern understanding.
@@CoolKidMethew If it is all metaphorical then I have no truck with them, but that is a small number of judeochristians. You mention extreme subsections of Christianity being scams, but I see the vast majority of subsections as scams. The ones that deny reality are the norm, not the exception. As far as Confucianism and Buddhism, they try to be philosophical in the same way that alchemy was a try at chemistry and they are just as real or useful as is alchemy today. Like I said, a limited understanding of the world.
@@hansdrubal1 I understand where you are coming from, however, I think movements such as the Extremist Evangelicals of The United States, who have disproportionate political power to their relatively small size. For instance, before the extreme rise to prominence of Extreme Evangelicalism, the idea of denying evolution was ridiculous to many Christians, there was an early figure in the 1920s who was heavily derided for trying to use biblical litetalism to completely deny evolution. As for Buddhism, I am not knowledgeable enough on the topic as of yet to make definitive statements, but Confucianism acts as a sort of social theory on how members of society should act. Such as revering good ancestors, and striving to preserve social harmony and achieving altruism. While I personally do not subscribe to Confucianism specifically, I think it understandable why Confucians believe what they do, and very much not a scam.
Iluvatar accepting Aules creation of the dwarves was Eru accepting that Aule had the same desire has his creator did. The student became the master for an instant. As they often do!
I guess the difference between Aule and Melkor was that the first wanted to create things out of respect for Illuvatar, the second one out of arroganca and showing of his skill, however none of this would have happened if Eru let the ALL the Valar do their thing and give them more freedom.
@@grassblock7668 not only that Melkor wanted to create to control and dominate other wills, like you said Aule did it out of reverence and love for life and creation.
Aule wanted to contribute to arda, while Melkor wanted to destroy it. That is the difference between the half-creations of the 2, as well as the fact Eru completed Aule's.
@@erikthomsen4768 Just someone trying to shoehorn politics where it doesn’t make sense. I could just as well say Melkorism is like conservatism, and probably make more sense (for I see no similarities whatever between Melkorism and “woke” politics) but that would make me no better than the OP.
Satan was an angel that fell and it reminds me a lot of Tolkien's concepts even though this was his fantasy world and he wasn't trying to tie religious elements into it his universe of fiction. Same as the Marvel universe or even Warcraft. They all have titans and things that created everything in the beginning. The scariest thing is when people deny that this world is getting worse and that there is no Devil. But the great deceiver truly exists and is the ruler of this world. We can try Jesus concepts like be good and pay it forward and save the environment, but he says we need his grace and that this world will pass away. Our own time is limited as well and very short.
Melkorism is all of them, both communism and capitalism (liberalism) are inherently materialistic, both are trying to destroy the divine in Man. Same as Numenor, it results in the death cult of progress that we see today, with child sacrifices being seen as moral.
I'd say that more than a little bit of North Korea since it is effectively a religious cult dedicated to the Kim family. I do think the comparison to other religions is unfair however. Regardless of the negative consequences associated with many modern religions, they were founded out of a desire to do what the founders considered to be morally upright. Importantly, those people also actually believed in their religion, unlike with Melkorism, whose founders preached things they knew as objectively false.
Remember when people make videos like this if you don't know something for a fact it's only a theory and it is only something you think so it will never be anything more then either completely uninteresting or interesting LOL
Make sure you know what you're talkin about when you talk about religion you have religion and you have people that have looked for evidence of where everything has come from and have found all of the best evidence and any evidence to come from something like in reality the Bible there's tons of evidence to prove that many things that are in that Bible are true and happen now if a person believes that and just lives knowing what happened that's not being religious now if a person takes those words and turns them into some human form of gaining something for themselves through basically worshipping the group or themselves yet calling it God or taking reality in twisting it to pieces and making their own religion that would be a religion like for instance if I tell you I know who the president of the United States is and I know that I'm going to follow the laws of my country that's not me being religious by practicing obedience to those laws that's just simply me knowing reality and not wanting to have to deal with the consequences but if I pretend I have a different president and not go against all of the laws in a manner to wear if I do anything different I will have to somehow give Penance for that that's more along the lines of religion anyway there is reality and there is religion the common sense of knowing that there has to be a God is Not religion just want to make that clear for anybody that doesn't know
Technically speaking there was once a religion that worshiped Eru, the religion of the Numenorians. Their church was fairly accurately based of the function and structure of the Catholic Church (Albeit to a very simple degree.) and it was almost exclusive to them. Until Sauron corrupted it and destroyed it causing the downfall of Numenor.
Keep in mind most of the races didnt have an actual need for religion as they knew exactly what would happen to them. The Elves knew, the Orcs knew, the Goblins didnt care, Trolls are too stupid, Dragons are Morgoth's followers as are Baurogs, its rly only Hobbits and Men who had anything we would call a religion simply because most of them didnt know anything about Eru, at least as of the Third Age. The fall of Numenor was so long ago most dont even know (Or care.) about its religion.
There is also the religion of the Dwarves
@@Elia-fn8jv No. As I said earlier, the dwarves have great reverence towards their creator, the Vala Aulë, whom they call Mahal ("Maker" in Khuzdul), but they worship Eru like Elves and the Free Men. They don't have a different religion.
@@Owlusirie yeah but its still a different kind of worship compared to elves and men
@@Elia-fn8jv Not so much if you think about it: the dwarves worshipped a Vala more than the others, but also the Elves did so with Varda/Elbereth, the wife of Manwë and creator of stars.
They just focus more on a Vala, but it's the same religion.
@@Owlusirie hmm, could you say Catholicism and Protestantism are the same simply because they worship Christ? One puts more emphasis on the Lady Maria than the other. Bottom line they can ultimately worship the same God but still be different with customs...
“Most witches don’t believe in gods. They know that the gods exist, of course. They even deal with them occasionally. But they don’t believe in them. They know them too well. It would be like believing in the postman.” - Terry Pratchett
What about the One who created everything? Do they believe in Him? The One who’s truly worthy of being called a god. The Only God for many across the world.
@@RotisivI think you're taking what's essentially a joke a little too seriously.
@@RotisivDon’t take the High Horse’s dick so deep there, Mr Hands. It’s a fuckin joke quote from a work of satire.
@@RotisivAlso, fuck your sky daddy.
I honestly think melkor is like allah
"Go to Hell-ron, L-RON!" *not to be confused with Elrond.*
Amazing vid and it's impressive how you regularly discuss parts of Tolkien other channels never touch. I am a Roman Catholic so yes all of the Catholic elements of Tolkien's work are hard to ignore.
Sounds like you looking for an Allegory where there isn't
@@centeura1435 No one said anything about an allegory... there's simply Catholic elements and lots of typology in Tolkien's Middle-Earth works. He even mentioned in his own letters about the Lambas bread being similar to the Eucharist; which was of course by design, on his part.
There are a ton of dates in LOTR related to catholicism aswell. And I think Tolkien didn't like explicit religious allegory, if he didn't like allegory then what is the whole tale of Numenor but the Fall of Atlantis?
As a Jewish man, I can see and to an extent understand the Catholic elements of the world of Middle-Earth.
@@centeura1435Eru Illuvatar is quite literally the Christian God. "they say that the One will himself enter into Arda, and heal Men and all the Marring from the beginning to the end." He himself is portraying himself as a historian of sorts, and places the modern age at the 6th or 7th Age.
One thing you left out was the possible survival of Melkorism into the 4th Age. Tolkien's abortive sequel to LoTR, "The New Shadow" certainly seems to hint at it taking root in Gondor in secret, under King Eldarion.
Wasn't that worship of Sauron?
10:06 Actually Melkorism answered the question that men had about the universe and the afterlife,it is said in the Silmarillion that Sauron replaced the religion of Iluvatar in Numenor with Melkorism and all that was attributed to Iluvatar was instead attributed to Morgoth.
And there was the religion of the dwarves that worshipped Aule and they called him Mahar
No, the dwarves have great reverence towards their creator, the Vala Aulë, whom they call Mahal ("Maker" in Khuzdul), but they worship Eru like Elves and the Free Men. They don't have a different religion.
Morgoth commited Cultural Appropriation before it was even a term nice
@@Owlusirie Read a few dictionary entries, preferably from a good dictionary that talks about history, for 'worship'.
@@WiggaMachiavelli Thanks for the correction, I'm not a native English speaker. However, I strongly suggest you to calm down and have respect towards other people. I didn't offend anyone (and surely not you), so I see no need to keep that arrogant tone of yours.
@@OwlusirieCoincidentally, mahal means love or expensive (depending on the context) in tagalog/filipino
Since I have only read the original book about five times, I have never been able to fully analyze it, neither have I wished to.
But one very obvious reference to a religion still being practiced is when Frodo and Sam are taken captive by Faramir's men.
About dinner time (or so I think), he explains to the Hobbits that they sit and face the west (or some other direction) and are silent for a few solelmn moments.
Just from the top of my head, I think that's a definite ritual from a religion.
They sit in silent prayer and remember those who came before them.
That's my interpretation, being generally non-religious myself.
Awesome, barely anything is out there on such an interesting topic.
The genius of Tolkien's use of religion is like his use of magic:Subtle. Very, very subtle.
also feel it is worth mentioning that in the 'new shadow' the book about the fourth age, even if it never went far or is canon, it is interesting that it seems Men were adopting Melkorism again.
Sounds like the modern world...
Maybe they felt that was the only hope of rescue from the unelected autocracy under Elessar.
I'm going to become a patron today sir.
I thought I already was one but being left out of the shout outs at the end left me feeling some type of way.
In Middle Earth, the "religion" of the protagonists isnt recognized as such because its just *how the world works* which Tolkien modeled after Medieval and Antique Christian Neo-Platonic -magic- -theurgy- philosophy
Thanks for the new video!
I think you made an excellent video from start to finish. I enjoyed it. It caused me to think a lot and learn about new ways to look at the lore of Middle Earth. Thanks!
It would be more worth for you if you where able to see the connection to liberalism and all it different root´s today where it is depraving nations...
@@rayhinto I am starting to see those connections
😄 Lol , the Scientology bit there at the end! Very well, researched and spoken, Excellent, informative and very entertaining Middle-Earth video. Thank you.
So for all intents and purposes, Melkorism is Tolkien's version of Satanism. Melkor seems to play the role of Leviathan, and Sauron is the Serpent.
Ironic because it sounds so much like Christianity, particularly in how it spread.
@@Lawrence_Talbot But that's historically how most Religions spread, same goes for cults. Not just Christianity.
@@Lawrence_Talbot not really Christianity well at least Early Christianity didn't spread via violence but through trade networks in Rome and became popular to te lower classes so much so it later became the official religion. (The whole notion on through violence part comes from late antiquity to the Medieval Period where Christianity did at times spread and converted people through violence.)
@@mephistodood I mean Early Islam spread through Conquest but I don't think that makes Muslims from the period any different from other groups. (And thats also generalising as people did convert through peaceful means as well)
@@forickgrimaldus8301except early christians were so violent and closed so many schools and temples and burned so many books, most Classical literature was preserved in Persian Sassanid Iraq and only got back to Europe via Arab translations.
Its an inherently violent missionary religion, its why its only spread across the world with enforcement by the colonial empires
That scientology joke in the end make me laugh aloud
Holy shit this research is fantastic!
I love these types of different topics you put out there!
Interesting topic. One of the few "official" religions in Arda.
Ironically most of the Guys in Middle Earth are probably what we would Call Deists as in people who believe God can be proved through reason, I mean when you have Gandalf a literal angel guarding you its hard to justify the existence of Churches to worship Eru because why create Religious practices when you know God is gonna send his angel wizard men without the need of rituals, this isn't to say LOTR is a Deist work obviously not.
I didn’t know Morgoth called himself the “giver of gifts.”
Maybe this is where Saruman get inspiration for also putting on the likeness and calling himself Annatar which means “lord of gifts”
Perhaps the sequel of lotr, 'the new shadow' has Melkorism as a more metaphorical 'Dark Lord'/'evil influence', those that follow Melkorism anyway.
It'd make sense that way, as religion has a huge role in the world, belief is a powerful thing, even if that belief is wrong.
Could you do another video on the worship of Iluvatar and Valar in the diffrent cultures of Middle-earth
Good idea
All the children of Eru worshipped him or at least acknowledged him as creator. Rebels aligned to Morgoth
Just me who had to stop reading the book for a moment to laugh my ass off when Sauron told Ar-Pharizon about Melkorism for the first time? I think that was his first dialogue in the entire book and it was so so dramatic lol.
Awesome video.
.
There is clear difference between men and other races, because the Valar knew Iluvatar, and maiar, elves and dwarves knew the Valar, and orcs knew Melkor… though men in the first age saw some of the Valar, most didn’t throughout the second and the third ages… so they are the ones to eventually have religious beliefs (in place of direct experiences).
.
As for Melkorism, I see Two Main themes:
- service to Melkor (to himself); and
- active avoidance/disturbance of service to others (compassion, solidarity, cooperation, love of neighbors etc).
.
And service to Melkor (later to Sauron) has Two Main aspects:
- extending his power (because others obey and do his bidding; they Are his feet and hands); and
- submitting to his will (there’s not much more you can offer beyond human sacrifice; if you’ve got there, then you’re definitely and deeply in…).
.
I Strongly Suggest that this is what Happens in Reality (there are spiritual beings who are strongly self-serving and manipulative/controlling of others to their ends)… and I’d still add: Human Sacrifice (Human Blood and Suffering) is Vital Energy, and Vital Energy is a resource, it’s fuel, it really Allows beings to do stuff using this energy…
.
So that last bit is what explains the satanic human sacrifice thing, and it could be so (work the same way) in Ëa and Arda (dunno if Tolkien explicitly wrote about this, but I suspect he did, somewhere)…
.
And this, I believe, is the fundamental of all dark lords in all of fiction and fantasy: service of self and manipulation of others into service of the [dark] lord, of the boss.
so... Melkorism is basically scientology?
Kind of but worse because its literally 2 Satans that spreads it
I think it is worth pointing out that there are contemporary religions whose adherents believe the words of their holy text literally and any new human knowledge that conflicts with that text is, at best, ignored. There are also people whose religious practices clearly show their only real interest is in making themselves richer at the expense of their followers.
U just owned the religious sir let me wiggle my fedora towards you for this based AND new level of insight I’ve never seen a view like this ever represented anywhere ever my socks are knocked off sir
Christianity *cough* *cough*
@@Lawrence_Talbot That's very much an exception though, especially demonstrable with Catholicism due to how it's actively changed in light of new discoveries and findings.
I don't think it's good to belittle an entire faith based on an extremist outlier.
Perhaps you were just referring to said outlier, and I apologize if that was the case and I am misinterpreting your statement.
Religions encourage to live in peace but successfully in their societies.
@@Lawrence_Talbot Cough, Islam.
You have to wonder why so many disparate civilizations all over the globe and throughout time, all came to the conclusion that if they brutally tortured/murdered children/babies, as a “sacrifice” to some unseen other, the unseen other would look kindly on their gesture of fealty, and bestow great things upon them, almost magically. Egypt, Rome, Carthage, Mayans, Aztecs, etc.
Well the point of sacrifice is giving something valuable up in the hope that what you're sacrificing to will be able to alter your situation. And what is more precious, and more valuable, then the future and your heitage.
@@brianboru2762 Exactly. Satan claims that which is most precious, as his hatred for God’s creation is boundless and he seeks to afflict the most damage in his ongoing war against God.
@Hlord1109 Because the abrahamic faiths were almost the same?
And now the West, with its cult of sterility and death, not even children are safe.
@Hlord-be4xxi may be bit late, but one of reasons is certainly because Islam has risen from Christianity
This is the channel i download for work middle earth religion is neat
Cheers. Congratulations on passing 9k
The Silmarion is practically paradise lost with a sequel (I know about Paradise regained)
Wait, to say that all men besides the Edain followed Melkorism in the first age is gotta be a colossal exaggeration. Since it is mentioned in Silmarillion, that when the War of Wrath begun, many humans ignored the call to arms from Morgoth as well as from the Valar. My understanding is that while the Edain were the first to reject Melkor, they were not the last and by the end of the first age there were the Edain, the evil men who served Morgoth and then there were those, who were neutral. Those latter were the savage tribes who lived in the east or south and after the war, the remainders of Morgoth's men, presumably owing to their craftsmanship gained in his service, became kings in many of those tribes.
Back in the beginning of the First Age, was it Melkor who went to the men or was it Sauron? I don't think Melkor was able to take any form other than the terrible form he was in when he fled Valinor with Ungoliant. That's why he was able to be permanently crippled by Fingolfin during their legendary duel. Also, "The Giver of Gifts" definitely sounds like a Sauron thing. He would later take on a beautiful form and present himself to the elves of Eregion as "Annatar, The Lord of Gifts". I think it was Sauron who went to the men as Melkor's servant.
It was Melkor. The source is in book ten "Morgoth's Ring" in the "Tale of Adanel". So, I think that if Christopher Tolkien wrote that it was Melkor, we should assume he's right. 😉
Besides: Why should he not be able to assume a fair form that early (first sunlight) in the First Age? Sauron lost the ability to assume a fair form ONLY AFTER he had A) created his ring and poured much of his essence into it AND his physical form was destroyed on Numenor.
Morgoth by contrast at this point cannot have finished creating his Ring AND he never lost his physical form (he had previously only been chained).
Have you thought about opening a discord? That would be cool
Well done. Thank you.
A lot of the more obviously Catholic scenes and characterizations were the ones, coincidentally or not, that Jackson and co changed or omitted from their version
Shout out to my fellow melkorists
You’re not one of those Melkor Reformists are you? I ask because you didn’t capitalise Melkor or end with the traditional “May War and Desolation be upon you and your foes.”
I was raised old school and reject all those Sauronist reforms.
May War and Desolation be upon you and your foes.
《‘Sit now there,’ said Morgoth, ‘and look out upon the lands where evil and despair shall come upon those whom you have delivered to me. For you have dared to mock me, and have questioned the power of Melkor, Master of the fates of Arda. Therefore with my eyes you shall see, and with my ears you shall hear, and nothing shall be hidden from you.’》
J.R.R. Tolkien - The Children of Húrin, Chapter III, “The Words Of Húrin And Morgoth”
Hallowed are the Ori
2:04 Two questions, or three.
1) Would the religion of the Gneezle's in The Secret of the Swamp (Carl Barks) possibly qualify as some form of Melkorism or Baal worship?
2) Would you agree that this story is a good candidate for one of the most or even _the_ most Tolkienian story of the Disney franchise?
3) Would you agree that Gneezles are kind of inbetween the Goblins of Goblintown and elves of Elrond or Thranduil in behaviour?
Apart, obviously, for their idol worship, which as Melkorism is clearly Goblin only and elves "no no"?
Anyone who wants to know what Tolkien was doing only has to look up the letters he wrote where he describes what he was doing.
Great video
Boot stamping down on the face of humanity forever.
Big Brother intensifies!
Interesting. I guess Melkor is a Lucifer, but also a Prometheus.
Certainly an interesting character.
I can see why some people might even find him sympathetic. I mean, most people would instinctively side with Prometheus and think that Zeus is a jerk in that myth.
Until a half hour ago I did not even know that melkorism was even a word or areligion
Did the human sacrifice have any practical (maybe magical?) effect?
Not that I'm aware of.
Sarcasm: Meat, getting rid of undiserable's, Unification of the plebs, etc.
Serious: Evil corrupts so easly because it makes things easy.
After all: Why shoudnt you take the gold, the woman, eat the corpses of your enemies.
Because it is wrong?
According to who?
A none existing god that even if he exist does nothing.
Simple thruth is.
Its easy to be evil.
Being good takes constant effort.
Fascinating
Main difference between middle earth religions and earth religions is the middle earth religions had a real god.
Its really more of a cult than anything.
Cult... Religion
Tomato.... Tomato
We call it Amazonism now
What's the back music being used throughout the video?
A better way to put it I believe, would be that there is no explicit religion, there is tons of implicit and symbolic religion.
so effectively, Morgoth= von Hayek
Love your videos
I've just read the Silmarillion, and most of this doesn't fit that or anything not published posthumously many many years later? In the First Age many men simply ignored Melkor and many joined the elves and helped them. The followers of Morgoth were a specific group of humans recruited in secret amongst the elves human allies, and then betrayed them mid battle.
No, it doesn't. "Melkorism" as it is called in this video only exists maybe a few dozen years at most before Numenor is destroyed. Nowhere else does it actually exist.
@@dinmavric5504 Its a major plot point in The Silmarillion that during one of the big battles of the First Age, that two human warlords had sided with Melkor/Morgoth in secret. I've recently read the book, and dont own copies of the extended Legendarium.
Yes in the section about Numenor, Sauron's influence only takes hold on the island with a particular king, but its implied he's there for quite some time as it was several kings previous that his armies were defeated and he switched to intrigue while posing as a faithful new vassal and advisor
Melkorism sounds a lot like fascism
Isn't the giver of gifts Sauron???
Melkor is just Xenu now
How many practicing Melkorists today?
I mean one of the big draws of Melkorism as a religion, was that Melkor actually *did* things for his worshippers. He would get involved, give them knowledge and power. The Valar, and Eru generally were just kind of... derelict. They never did anything to really help anyone and the few times they did intervene they tended to leave it so late that their interventions by necessity had to be earth-shattering calamities. Maybe I'm alone in this, but whilst I don't like the whole evil nature of Melkor, I found him to be a far more compelling and symathetic character than any of Tolkein's 'good guys'.
Gods, pal. There's a reason why Kratos, Asura, Tanya and Guts hate them all. Melkor and Sauron are bastards, and the Valar likely aren't much better. At least they're not raping people like the Olympians and Annunaki.
I'm mostly with you, except that I vastly prefer the Valar's dereliction to the likes of Morgoth or Sauron. I'd like them better had they not let their criminals run rampant over Middle Earth for entire ages of the world before finally bestirring themselves to do something about it.
Morgoth is responsible for almost all of the suffering and corruption in the world, from the very start of the creation of Arda he ruined and polluted and corrupted, anything good ever he could not stand, and thus had to destroy, he has killed so many and destroyed so much that you entire comment is frankly hilariously stupid. and it isn't up to interpretation, read the Silmarillion ffs
@@greendogg83
Clearly you didn't get the point of Nathan's comment.
Morgoth is evil, that's not under debate. But the main reason he managed to corrupt and destroy so many is because the Valar are incompetent and neglectful. They mostly stayed in their perfect eden in Valinor, and in general seem incapable of preventing and fixing the bulk of Morgoth's damage to the world. A lot of the problems faced by Elves, Dwarves and Men are also of the Valar and/or Eu's own making.
@@DeathMessenger1988 Indeed! In fact there's a line during the creation of the world where Eru basically tells Melkor that no theme that exists in the music doesn't find its source in him, and thus whatever discord or evil Melkor did was ultimately in Eru's own service to glorify him further which... yes, matches Catholic theology but also kind of makes Eru... the source of all evil? And basically evil? At the least when Melkor was being evil, he was being... active, unlike the Valar who basically just sat off except when the Elves were in danger because I guess Eru and the Valar just really loved Elves more than Men. (I mean, death as the Gift of Men, seriously Eru? You were asking for the Numenoreans to try what they did...)
“Melkorism only existed in Numenor for 50 years but led to swift societal decline, seeing the numenorians forsake all of the traditions of their ancestors”. This sounds exactly like the current state of the US.
Yeah, Trumpism. Worship of an evil being.
So, the King's Men saw themselves as the true followers of the traditions of their ancestors, even as they dismantled them? Yes, probably so.
@@robertmiller9735 I don’t know if that’s how they necessarily saw themselves. They knew good and well that the old king’s were friendly with elves and respected the Valar’s injunction on sailing westward and essentially wrote these notions off as misguided. This type of arrogance and disregard for ancient wisdom is likewise on display today, largely from the left.
And also the child sacrifices.
Ew a conservative
Giver of gifts was Sauron, not Morgoth...
Annatar means "Lord of Gifts"
But it's providing material benefits to the worst adherents? Talk about an effective scam. Eru instead is hands-off or subtle in influence.
What I dislike about "Melkorism", is that there is absolute hatred against Melkor after the first age, by all non-Easterling men. So Númenor woud never do anything in the name of Melkor, Sauron converted them by convincing that THEY are gods, not him nor his deceased master!
Laveyan Satanism in a nutshell lol. Each person makes themself a lil Melkor and dies corrupting/being useless to everyone around them.
The whole middle earth story is based on religious beliefs aa Tolken was a devoted Catholic.
OMG this exists SO COOL i am christian and no one says anything about Lucifer and Satan in reference to Tolkien this video is mandatory
But Melkor is literally a god so how can this be a fake religion? Am I missing something here?
First, Melkor is a highly ranked angel, not a god. Eru Illuvatar is the only god of Middle Earth - forgive my spelling there.
Second, it is a fake religion because it is based on knowing lies of a being who knows, with absolute certainty, that they are lies. Melkor knows he's not going to give his followers any of the things he promises them, and that he *CANNOT* give them most of the things he promises them. The religion is based on the worship of a being who shares a name with Melkor but who is vastly more powerful - but no more benevolent - than the actual Melkor.
@@richardkenan2891 Wait is he though? Originally he was considered a Valar (to be considered a Valar you'd have to be one of the Ainur that first descended into Arda) and still technically remained one, just not in title. And if the Elves called the Valar, well, the Valar, and Men called the Valar "gods" that technically makes Melkor and the 14 Valar, gods. The second point you wrote in your comment is the reason why it's not considered a real religion. Real life religions are based on beliefs that often aren't proven, that's basically faith. However Melkorism based itself on both blaten lies and a real thing (the existence of Melkor himself being the only real thing).
@@grassblock7668 There is only one true God in Ea and Arda, and that is Eru Illuvatar. The valar are archangels. Maiar are angels. Melkor was the most powerful vala. Melkor is jealous and envied Eru, when the valar created the Ea and Arda thru their music in accordance to the plans of Eru. So Melkor started sowing his discord thru his music, against to the plan of Eru. So there was a chaos in Arda. Melkorism is a cult.
@@evenstar1608 Yeah I know it's a cult, i'm just not convinced on the gods not gods thing.
@@grassblock7668 yeah but there is the supreme god, so supreme, only he is worthy of this title. He made the song of creation and ended it. Melkor as an angel is more like satan as fallen angel.
What is the actual name of this faith? In lore
It doesn't have one. It's usually just referred to as either "darkness worship" or "Melkor worship".
@@DarthGandalfYT thank you Darth gandalf I love your content :) you ever played war of the ring the ares board game?
@@DarthGandalfYT It takes a Darth Gandalf to know thing such like that, are you for real ? A Angel ? :) Ainur (Maiar) ? :D
it`s a very religious tale , but the religion is natural not structured like ours today ! and yes I agree about melkor and sauron ! melkor comes across as satan , only a more personal satan as he actually does harm personally , after his fall , his slave sauron steps it to take his place ! but both are defeated by those they would enslave ! but judging by tolkiens writings evil rises up again in the fourth age ! hopefully a lesser evil than sauron ! which would make sense , as evil as sauron was , he was a lesser evil when compared to his master !
Melkorism sounds like Abrahamic religion. “Worship me and not the other guys”. Perhaps a cult is a better description, than religion, since Melkor knew deep down he was a member of the Valar and knew Illuvatar was real
I mean, comparing Abrahamic faiths to Melkorism on that base alone is sort of like comparing a consensual marriage to being trapped with a (I hate that I even know this word) yandere on the basis that in both cases, they demand some type of exclusivity. In fact, while I don't know if the same can be said of Islam, in the old Hebrew scriptures, God often compares his relationship with Israel and Judah to a marriage with the people of these nations as His children, whereas in Christianity, the Church is literally talked about as a bride waiting urgently for the day when she will be united to her Bridegroom, that being Christ, God the Word and Son, while the idea of individual Christians being the body of Christ hearkens back to the old concept of a man and wife becoming one flesh in the form of marriage, as we are the collective Church.
...Also, it just occurs to me that I may have just put the image in your head of Morgoth and/or Sauron being a yandere.
I am so sorry.
Hallowed Are the Ori
Wtf no it was Sauron who started melkorism not melkor himself
More of an ideology than religion but there isn't much of a difference there.
how can it be a Satanic Religion if there is no satin?
1:07
At least Melkorism isn't as cunning, tempting, alluring, and decepting as the occult theologies and religions the Watcher Fallen Angels of the book of Enoch sprang up which they continue onwards in different forms after the Flood such the pagan and secret religions. The Watchers had alot more people willingly following their fraud occult theology then Melkor did.
If you follow how the Watchers did things it was pretty horrifying how people would accept them so willingly.
And all Mastema (Satan) had to do was adopt their evil legacies and paint them a little bit differently and spread them once more after they were gone and imprisoned in 1st Enoch and Jubilees with the help of the disembodied demonic spirits he was allowed to have authority over in Jubilees.
Where Melkor exceeds in brute force and power Satan succeeds in deceit and cunning indirect manipulation despite being bound by the strongest Archangel Michael.
Huh?
@@hoodedone8547 The guy named after the object of a pagan god equated pre Christian religions as the deception of one being
@@blackbeard1988
Is that supposed to be a insult?
@@thorshammer7883 No lol; I must have been tired when I made that comment. I actually agree but where did you get the name mastema?
@@blackbeard1988
Okay then I was wondering what the intent of that comment was.
The name "Mastema" is in the book of Jubilees and if searched in Blue Letter Bible it means enmity or to hate which is very close to what the title of "Satan" means.
Melkorism… Mmm sounds oddly familiar to abrahamic religions. Do what i say and you will be safe. I am true the other is a fake. Do it not and you will suffer. Great stuff
What’s your view of the truth then? How should the true God let us know that He alone is worthy of worship according to you? You have absolutely no real knowledge of what the Abrahamic religions teach if that’s how you view them.
@@Visitant01 They teach to be sheep and wolves.
Trve Numenorean Melkoristic Black Metal!
Hail Melkor!
Melkorism is definitely a real religion. Not only does it have a functioning clergy and worshipping rituals, but there's also the demonstration of "miracles" as well. Sure, it was more of a bargaining-type of religion. And definitely it doesn't fit in the fabric of our religions as well. But there are fundamental elements such as dogmatism and worship that can classify Melkorism as religion.
When saying that this is a scam, that can also apply to any religion as well. I am not trying to devolve this into a deist-atheist arguement, but I fail to see why Melkorism couldn't be considered a religion at all. Even if it's evil and "scammy".
"Satanic"? What?
The supreme god being evil and that people ought to worship a different god is NOT atheism. Where did you get the idea that Sauron taught atheism?
It is gnosticism, or in its modern forms, progressive atheism.
It's a direct quote from Tolkien, not myself.
@@DarthGandalfYT Ah, I see. Apologetics was of course going back then too...
@@shamusson How can it be any form of atheism if they believe a god exists?
@@robertmiller9735 Some forms of atheism act as pseudo-religions, the worship of Reason or Science for one. Take progressivism for example, its basically a corrupted form of Christianity, with God being taken out of it, but the shell remaining.
Scumbag Iluvatar.
He creates Men, offers no guidance, and when a fallen Vala steps into that void to guide them instead, punishes them for not knowing better by dooming them to finite life and calling it a "gift".
It gets worse when you realise everything Melkor did was part of Iluvatar's plan, since he tells Melkor at the end of the music of the Ainur that every evil Melkor tried to wreak helped achieve Iluvatar's overarching goal.
The Gift of Men was almost certainly intended from the beginning, that aspect of the story is almost certainly false.
Though the myth itself is likely stretched or altered from its original form due to being only orally passed down for so long.
And while death in our own world is an abhorrent doom which is widely feared, in the context of Eä it is most certainly a gift as men are implied to go to a wonderful, heaven-like place upon death. Though the exact nature of such things is unknown.
I do think it's unfair to entirely malign Iluvatar based on this myth, especially since it is almost certainly changed drastically from its original telling.
I also think Eru has a subtle, but omnipresent influence upon Arda that acts as a sort of guide towards goodness, as demonstrated by Gollum's fall, or more directly by Olorin's resurrection as Gandalf The White.
On page one of the Ainulindale (Music of the Ainur) it says:
(Illuvatar to the Ainur) "And since I have kindled you with the Flame Imperishable, ye shall show forth your powers in adorning this theme, each with his own thoughts and devices, if he will. But I will sit and hearken and be glad that through you great beauty has been wakened into song". Eru says that the Ainur have their own thoughts and devices so they can do as they wish. An example of free will.
However the later half of that paragraph speaks to Tolkiens philosophy on good and evil. Consider the One Rings temptation. It harkens back to Abrahamic myths like the Garden of Eve- Original Sin and Classical myths like the Story of Persephone. How at the very end, when the temptation and curiosity is at its peak, humans are inherently flawed and prone to fail. But we also have the free will and ability to do what's good, which is what gives our lives meaning. Tolkien had a philosophy that good doesn't always win, but often relies on evil to enact it's will, or evil is self destructive. Frodo gives into his temptation at the crack of mount doom (an evil), and it's his mercy for Gollum which acts as providence through Illuvatar (Tolkien referred to this as "Eucotrastophe" though it does not negate the deeds of the hero) who makes gollum dance off the edge into the fires. There's a reason Humans were referred to as the children of Illuvatar, who were granted the flame Imperishable and who were able to create. Essentially Eru actually did very little, and it's Melkor who wishes to dominate all wills. Melkor was essentially granted raw power, he's said to have hot desire. And he grew prideful and lustful to have control over others. Also according to Catholic theology, good and evil aren't two equal forces, but is a lack of, or the corruption of good.
And actually it was the marring of Arda which corrupted man and made them aware of death, and begin to fear it, aswell as sew jealousy into their heart for the immortality bestowed to the elves. This reminds me of original sin, when we were thrown out of the garden of unity, and became aware of our nakedness.
Tolkien's work definitely has free will, Tolkien would not come up with the word Eucotrastophe if it had no relevance or utility in his work. Eru wishes to create a beautiful song through free will, and essentially gets it.
Also Satan offered Christ all kingdoms on earth but Christ would rather the confused freedom than domination and full control. Free will is extremely important.
That's Christianity for you. Make humans susceptible to "sin", punish them for eating a fruit, when that fruit was the only means for them to know that disobedience was wrong, etc. Omniscient god sets it all up and then punishes humans for doing what was in his knowledge and in his plan right from the start. What a pychopath.
Illuvatar doesn't interfere. Except in the case of Numenor. Also, yes, to a being that created a whole universe Arda is more or less a sandbox. Why would you want to personify a God when you know that a being like that would not care for ants?
No... Illuvatar is small time compared to Yahwe and these other fairies. He's just a deist God who on ocassion might communicate with the Valar.
I don't agree with your definition of religion. For me, the purpose of religion is not to answer the unanswered. A religion is, though not exclusively, a story or a set of stories which provide instructions on how to live your life "properly". So like, imagine the moral of a storybook, but applied to its largest scale. Religions, for better or for worse, try to provide guidance to an otherwise ignorant person.
As Melkorism does teach those who worship Melkor how to live their lives "properly", I'd call it a religion.
It does sound familiar, like liberals
Maybe Melkor was the only sane entity in the entire Tolkien mythos . Eru stated plainly that everything that took place in or outside of his creation arda happened because he had preordained it . Melkor knew Eru better than any other being . Maybe rebelling against Eru and his spineless suckups was the only sane and decent way ( doomed to failure of course ) to free Eru's creations/victims from the the evil that Eru , by his own admission , was inflicting on them all .
Eru created everything, which means he also created evil. He needed an embodiment of evil so he allowed Melkor to go in his rebellious alt emo teen phase and to stay in it forever, he ain't that omnibenevolent of a god now is he?
On page one of the Ainulindale (Music of the Ainur) it says:
(Illuvatar to the Ainur) "And since I have kindled you with the Flame Imperishable, ye shall show forth your powers in adorning this theme, each with his own thoughts and devices, if he will. But I will sit and hearken and be glad that through you great beauty has been wakened into song". Eru says that the Ainur have their own thoughts and devices so they can do as they wish. An example of free will.
However the later half of that paragraph speaks to Tolkiens philosophy on good and evil. Consider the One Rings temptation. It harkens back to Abrahamic myths like the Garden of Eve- Original Sin and Classical myths like the Story of Persephone. How at the very end, when the temptation and curiosity is at its peak, humans are inherently flawed and prone to fail. But we also have the free will and ability to do what's good, which is what gives our lives meaning. Tolkien had a philosophy that good doesn't always win, but often relies on evil to enact it's will, or evil is self destructive. Frodo gives into his temptation at the crack of mount doom (an evil), and it's his mercy for Gollum which acts as providence through Illuvatar (Tolkien referred to this as "Eucotrastophe" though it does not negate the deeds of the hero) who makes gollum dance off the edge into the fires. There's a reason Humans were referred to as the children of Illuvatar, who were granted the flame Imperishable and who were able to create. Essentially Eru actually did very little, and it's Melkor who wishes to dominate all wills. Melkor was essentially granted raw power, he's said to have hot desire. And he grew prideful and lustful to have control over others. Also according to Catholic theology, good and evil aren't two equal forces, but is a lack of, or the corruption of good.
And actually it was the marring of Arda which corrupted man and made them aware of death, and begin to fear it, aswell as sew jealousy into their heart for the immortality bestowed to the elves. This reminds me of original sin, when we were thrown out of the garden of unity, and became aware of our nakedness.
Tolkien's work definitely has free will, Tolkien would not come up with the word Eucotrastophe if it had no relevance or utility in his work. Eru wishes to create a beautiful song through free will, and essentially gets it.
Gift of men was given to them upon creation, WTF are you talking about. Are you mad?
Tough to not call all religions a scam then. Answers, comfort, or purpose you say, but I haven't seen a religion yet that provides those things without being based on lies or clinging to the limited understanding of the world by our ancient ancestors.
money and religion, the original pyramid schemes
I feel that is an unfair view.
With Judeochristian religions, many followers interpret much of the sources to be metaphorical rather than literal, and use it more as a moral framework for their world.
There are also Eastern religions like Buddhism or Confucianism, which are atheistic in nature and focus primarily on either the after life and how to live a good life, or how to be a moral person who upholds a moral society.
That is not to say that many religions are not scams, extreme subsections of Christianity are absolutely revolting in their obvious deception or denial of reality, and more obvious examples like The Cult of the North Korean Ruling Family, or scientology easily come to mind.
Still, I think most people follow religions out of a genuine belief and desire for good, even if such things can come across as irrational in our modern understanding.
@@CoolKidMethew If it is all metaphorical then I have no truck with them, but that is a small number of judeochristians.
You mention extreme subsections of Christianity being scams, but I see the vast majority of subsections as scams. The ones that deny reality are the norm, not the exception.
As far as Confucianism and Buddhism, they try to be philosophical in the same way that alchemy was a try at chemistry and they are just as real or useful as is alchemy today. Like I said, a limited understanding of the world.
@@hansdrubal1 I understand where you are coming from, however, I think movements such as the Extremist Evangelicals of The United States, who have disproportionate political power to their relatively small size.
For instance, before the extreme rise to prominence of Extreme Evangelicalism, the idea of denying evolution was ridiculous to many Christians, there was an early figure in the 1920s who was heavily derided for trying to use biblical litetalism to completely deny evolution.
As for Buddhism, I am not knowledgeable enough on the topic as of yet to make definitive statements, but Confucianism acts as a sort of social theory on how members of society should act. Such as revering good ancestors, and striving to preserve social harmony and achieving altruism. While I personally do not subscribe to Confucianism specifically, I think it understandable why Confucians believe what they do, and very much not a scam.
Satanism but in fantasy.
Iluvatar accepting Aules creation of the dwarves was Eru accepting that Aule had the same desire has his creator did. The student became the master for an instant. As they often do!
I guess the difference between Aule and Melkor was that the first wanted to create things out of respect for Illuvatar, the second one out of arroganca and showing of his skill, however none of this would have happened if Eru let the ALL the Valar do their thing and give them more freedom.
@@grassblock7668 not only that Melkor wanted to create to control and dominate other wills, like you said Aule did it out of reverence and love for life and creation.
@@squaeman_2644 true, Aulë had way less evil intentions
Aule wanted to contribute to arda, while Melkor wanted to destroy it. That is the difference between the half-creations of the 2, as well as the fact Eru completed Aule's.
lol sounds like comunism to me xD
nice video bro thanks cheers :)
spoilt melk
If you sacrifice people to god like entity, you are a religion.
Wow, Melkorism sounds like "wokeism" ...just sayin
Except
1. “Wokeism” doesn’t exist
2. They are nowhere near the same
3. It’s *mostly a buzzword thrown around by righties like communist and socialist
Thats because the people pushing it literally worship Satan
Both rooted in darkness and shadow
What does that even mean?
@@erikthomsen4768 Just someone trying to shoehorn politics where it doesn’t make sense. I could just as well say Melkorism is like conservatism, and probably make more sense (for I see no similarities whatever between Melkorism and “woke” politics) but that would make me no better than the OP.
Satan was an angel that fell and it reminds me a lot of Tolkien's concepts even though this was his fantasy world and he wasn't trying to tie religious elements into it his universe of fiction. Same as the Marvel universe or even Warcraft. They all have titans and things that created everything in the beginning. The scariest thing is when people deny that this world is getting worse and that there is no Devil. But the great deceiver truly exists and is the ruler of this world. We can try Jesus concepts like be good and pay it forward and save the environment, but he says we need his grace and that this world will pass away. Our own time is limited as well and very short.
Melkorism is capitalism
Incredible analysis
@@nevilleslightlylargerbotto1726 they make you belive that meritocracy is a thing when in truth it is a scam to get richer
Globalism, communism etc
Melkorism is all of them, both communism and capitalism (liberalism) are inherently materialistic, both are trying to destroy the divine in Man. Same as Numenor, it results in the death cult of progress that we see today, with child sacrifices being seen as moral.
@@shamusson I agree, although I don’t think capitalism in and of itself is necessarily evil, but the worship of money and materialism certainly is
It sounds like religion to me. With alittle bit of North Korea thrown in.
I'd say that more than a little bit of North Korea since it is effectively a religious cult dedicated to the Kim family.
I do think the comparison to other religions is unfair however. Regardless of the negative consequences associated with many modern religions, they were founded out of a desire to do what the founders considered to be morally upright.
Importantly, those people also actually believed in their religion, unlike with Melkorism, whose founders preached things they knew as objectively false.
Lmao, religion doesnt play a role in Tolkien? You really do not know much.
Remember when people make videos like this if you don't know something for a fact it's only a theory and it is only something you think so it will never be anything more then either completely uninteresting or interesting LOL
Make sure you know what you're talkin about when you talk about religion you have religion and you have people that have looked for evidence of where everything has come from and have found all of the best evidence and any evidence to come from something like in reality the Bible there's tons of evidence to prove that many things that are in that Bible are true and happen now if a person believes that and just lives knowing what happened that's not being religious now if a person takes those words and turns them into some human form of gaining something for themselves through basically worshipping the group or themselves yet calling it God or taking reality in twisting it to pieces and making their own religion that would be a religion like for instance if I tell you I know who the president of the United States is and I know that I'm going to follow the laws of my country that's not me being religious by practicing obedience to those laws that's just simply me knowing reality and not wanting to have to deal with the consequences but if I pretend I have a different president and not go against all of the laws in a manner to wear if I do anything different I will have to somehow give Penance for that that's more along the lines of religion anyway there is reality and there is religion the common sense of knowing that there has to be a God is Not religion just want to make that clear for anybody that doesn't know
Punctuation. Use it.
melkorism is just capitalism lmao