The best part of this interview is how Ali remains humble with his response to Cosell. He said, I was not fighting a Cleveland Williams at his tops, he was at his promise 6-7 years ago. All class. He is the GOAT.. in many regards. So much respect for the giant of mankind.
He knew Williams was still a danger in his diminished capacity, he was no easy beat. Ali didn't attack Williams he was fighting in counter-attack move, waiting for opportunities to present and take them without hesitation. Williams was a hard fight for Ali because of the way Ali fought him. With London and Cooper he was on offensive With Williams he was defensive but still managed a decisive victory. But this wasn't the Williams of Sonny Liston era.
Williams was ducked by all the heavyweights of his era, because of his punching power and strength. Ali again proved that by saying how Williams was both strong, powerful and courageous. This man had no quit and that should be enough proof of the fighter Williams once was. People can say all kinds of compliments with Ali beating Williams, but Ali even said does not proof anything by beating Williams, he knew the physical and conditioning of Williams before the fight, he had great respect
Ali admits that Williams was top notch five years earlier but not really when he fought Ali. Fair enough. That’s true. Williams is 34 years old here and he didn’t box at all in ‘65 because he was recovering from getting shot by a .cop’s 357. I hope Ali treated Williams with respect and didn’t run him down like he did with so many of his opponents.,
He was well past his prime but people forget Williams had to beat some ass just to get to fight the world champ. He won four fights in between him getting shot and the Ali fight and had a 9 win streak going. He fought for six more years after this fight
Muhammad Ali was a great boxer, tactician and had excellent ring generalship, but he knew when facing Williams he was a force and had to try and KO him quickly. He did not want to be in a brawling situation as with George Chuvalo, he knew it by admitting the hitting power in this clip. He didn't want to have the fight prolonged so he ducked, weaved and kept his distance and used his speed to his advantage to smash Williams. But that does not mean Williams was like Brian London who was nothing.
Beginning w/his loss to Floyd, the formerly great Eddie Machen began the end of his career, winning only 3 of his last 11 fights. He was done. Yes; Patterson -did- have a crystal ball; it told him: "You have almost nothing to lose, take the fight with Machen." Previously, this same ball told him: "You have too much to lose, stay away from Machen." The ball had a name: Cus D'Amato.
Why fight a more difficult fight if you don't need to? You're right. I never said Ali was irrational. But you're wrong about the other thing: We do agree. 'Avoided', 'passed on', 'chose not to', 'delayed', 'din't need to'. All mean the same thing. I love Ali. He probably would've beaten Williams, but no matter how 'good' the reason, he -chose- not to fight him, until Williams was a wreck. Yes, when it was a fighter named Clay in the fight, it's still Clay in reference; when it's Ali, it's Ali.
I agree, but then that isn't really saying anything about Williams except that Rocky retired early so as not to be beaten by any number of the good fighters that were coming up...wow, stop the press!
I remember in a article Ali called the Sonny liston 2 match a “failed shuffle” since liston kinda blocked it and caused ali to just shuffle without any punches thrown.
What I said was conjecture too, but I only applied it to the first couple of years of his and any fighter's career, that you wouldn't take on a guy with 8 years experience particularly when you've just turned 18 and the other guy is a top ranked contender of 26. This is once again pure conjecture on my part.
Floyd & Cus are famous for avoiding all possible losses. All boxing experts agree..one of the few boxing issues where no experts disputes exist. Thus, yes, we can fairly "read Floyd's mind" in this case. You're entitled to your -opinion- that Ali would've beat Foreman again, (perhaps he would have), but the -fact- is that Ali refused to fight Foreman again.
Who's talking about age? Williams was PERMANENTLY DAMAGED, from being shot and the subsequent surgery."Only 33"? So what? His injuries would've ruined him even if he'd been 23. The point is: Using his fight with Williams as evidence of Ali's greatness is absurd.
Marciano retired to protect his unbeaten record. Plain and simple. If you think you'll keep winning, you don't do that. Who cares who the opponent is?: Rocky knew he was due to lose, and he didn't have the honor to pass the title on in the ring. Being undefeated in this manner isn't anything to be proud of. Williams was a great fighter, but no match for Liston. Try reading what I actually write before you make fun.
not arguing if this happened or these conditions took place. That's all conjecture but the reality was that Williams performance to come back after the shooting incident that should have instantly killed him was beyond measure of courage, Williams lost a kidney 10 meters of his small intestines and the bullet lodged in his hip bone causing his right foot to shake. He was never and will never be the same opponent Sonny Liston faced. Liston faced a Warrior who landed bombs.
You're not responding to what I'm posting! No, Ali -doesn't- need this fight to be great, but many of his -fans- USE THIS FIGHT as ultimate proof of his greatness, whereas this fight actually proves nothing. Pay attention!
Great video, interview too. Why did Williams have zero fights between June, 1954 and Aug, 1956? He was young, being born in 1933 (on the same day as Mike Tyson: June 30). Marciano fought his finale in Sept, 1955, and retired in spring, 1956. Why was Williams inactive then?
Like the way you know how Floyd felt. Ali would have beaten George again, the guys who took him closer where Norton and Frazier. Foreman would have killed Williams as he had crumbled under Sonny and Foreman was better. Ali even beat Shavers when he was really going downhill....Lyle hit hard and nearly beat George. Foreman had lost to Jimmy Young who fought similarly to Ali.
Relevant indeed. Johanssen KO'd Machen KO'd almost immediately, ther was never a boxing match. Floyd felt he'd "slick" his way out of that possibility, outbox Johanssen "by a mile". 1st fight, he's wrong. 2nd & 3rd fights were contracted rematches for Floyd to get back & keep the title. I never said floyd -couldn't- beat better fighters, just that didn't like to take the chance.
Not every post I make is about Williams. -You- brought up Rocky, so I gave you my opinion about Rocky. If you don't wanna hear about other fighters, don't start the thread.
Check the dictionary. "Avoid": 1/Stay clear of. 2/Keep from happening. 3/Keep out of of the way. 4/Refrain from doing. / No negative connotation is required. All that's required is knowledge & choice. EX: A1/I know the light is red. A2/I know what a red light means. B/I choose not to cross the street when the light is red. C/Thus, I avoid speeding cars.
Everything in the fight game is about chance, probability and calculation. Yes we can sit here and debate or argue what a prime Williams would've done to an Ali. Remember this Ali was told by Liston to face Williams and then come and face me for the title. Ali knew that they didn't want that hurdle so they pestered Liston until he relented. Good job on Ali part. But Ali was given the chance and he ducked him for good reason in 1964. Yes that's reality and how life apparently works, we are
Williams was a stand-up fighter suited 2 Ali, swarmers gave him trouble. Stand up fighters can b beaten with speed, Ali was the fastest, end of story. Why should Ali have gone through every conceivable challenge b4 becoming champion if he didn't have 2? Financially it didn't make sense. Once he became champion he was a fighting champion. He didn't shoot Williams & whatever Sonny may have said, fact was he dispatched Williams very quickly, 2X. I'm not missing a single point here.
Williams fought whoever he could get. He avoided no one, but he had no title to offer his opponents, just a tough fight; thus t h e y avoided -him- , (no caps, happy?). Like you say: Why -should- they, if they don't need to? on the other hand: Floyd could fight anyone he wanted to, having a title to offer. Who -did- he 'want' to? Not Liston (until he -had- to), not Machen (until Eddie was finished & Floyd had no title to lose, not Foley, not Terrel, & not Williams.
You 'like' reasons Ali avoided Williams, (1st he wasn't ready, then was fighting other guys, ...that's fine, no big deal. Ali was great, never said he wasn't, & his reasons to not fight Williams were just fine, but it's still avoidance; kinda like when he wouldn't give Foreman a rematch: George was stupid to not have it in the contract; he thought it was a sure W/KO for him. Ali was smart to not fight George again, there was no good reason to, one good reason not to. But it's still avoidance.
Absurd: There's a sub-culture of Ali fans (you've apparently not noticed), that uses this fight as the main piece of evidence of Ali's greatness. Of course it's not Ali, nor Cosell. Not in "his prime"? Ha! That'd be accounted for by age alone. No. It was -far- beyond not being in "his prime"; he was DAMAGED GOODS. YOU DON"T THINK -PATTERSON- DUCKED WILLIAMS? You're very funny. Patterson ducked EVERYONE, until public opinion FORCED him to fight Liston.
NO, read more carefully: I dont attribute Rocky's retirement to Williams. Williams was merely one of -many- fighters who Rocky wasn't SURE he'd beat. And he wanted to be SURE, which is a chicken-shit attitude for pro boxer
U keep raising points all over the place & I cover most of them, but it's hard 2 keep up -some I have answered & don't wish 2 repeat myself & a few are kinda off the point. Like you still keep on about avoidance & not having titles 2 offer. In the time frame there wasn't much time 4 Ali 2 face CW b4 66 (reasons previously outlined) If 1 could get a title fight quicker who wouldn't, then fight all the rest as champ. Ali was a fighting champ & faced more of the worthy opposition than other champs
"Said before", "different points": Sounds like everything anyone's ever said since the beginning of time. Is there a 3rd category? I love our chats. Sometimes you have to re-word concepts a few times before others get the point. One more time: 1/Ali's win over a damaged Williams is completely meaningless. Why do many Ali fans use it as evidence of Ali's greatness? 2/For -whatever- reasons, Ali -chose- not to fight Williams in his prime. Win or lose, it would've been a very different fight.
Actually, upon further thought,while Marciano, wouldn't technically be considered to have ducked the up & coming Williams, YES, it's fair to say that Rock's decision to retire was in no small part reinforced by Williams entering the competition. What the heck , it's ducking of the worst sort; permanent ducking. In Ali's case, he took fights he knew he'd win, avoided doubtful ones. No great sin, still, a real choice that he made: Don't fight Williams in his prime.
Even on your part, the only conjecture is in regard to the motives, not the facts. The facts, (or, at worst, a set of -very- fair assumptions): 1/Ali & Williams were aware of each other. 2/Williams was willing to fight Ali. 3/They didn't fight until Williams was badly hurt -&- considerably older. This fulfills the test of avoidance. No prejudice re motive or assumption as to the possible result if they had fought previously.
remember an Ali interview where said " as soon as I knock THAT bum off, I'm gonna take Cleveland Williams or Billy Daniels both in the same night if they can arrange it. I'll whup both of the bums" so yes in 1962 he knew of Williams and he didn't fight Daniels until late 1962
Williams lost 2 Terrel & twice 2 Liston by the time Ali got his title shot. Ali's title shot came unusually fast due 2 his flamboyance & publicity stunts. He only turned pro in 60 -Williams being a pro 4 8 years already, so Ali wasn't ready 4 him in 61 & 2. In 63 Ali fought rated contender Doug Jones while Williams decisioned Daniels who Ali ko'd in 7 & lost to Terrel. Ali beat Liston in 64 & didn't fight till the rematch in the year Williams was shot -'65. At their meeting in 66 he was only 33.
Williams won the first match with terrell, but Williams still won the 2nd match with terrell, Williams got scammed. Terrell got knocked out in one of the rounds and terrell did all the hugging and holding and cheap blows. Rewatch the fight I was scoring on points and Williams won without doubt
"The opposition Patterson fought was superior to Williams" ???? Sorry, up until now,I thought were attempting to resolve a misunderstanding, but if you really believe THAT!....
Probably coz they don't know about CW's injury. Would have been a different fight...the avoidance thing is conjecture, which you like pushing. By all means do, but passing it off as fact only satisfies only the uninformed and the haters.
So what, he still lost. Anyone can knock anyone out. I'm no fan of Terrel (dirty fighter, liar...) but he did beat him and might have also done so in a third bout...height range.
More fights? Not necessarily: There's this advanced concept called fighting one guy instead of another. (I'll assume you're using Frazier to be 'absurd' again, and won't respond to that.)
Based on his opponent's records Patterson overall fought better fighters than Williams did. Who he was afraid of...if anyone is pure conjecture. Better to stick to the facts if you wanna argue effectively.
Floyd didn't fight washed-up Machen til his title wasn't on the line. Floyd refused Machen when he was champ & Machen was dangerous. Floyd fought OLD Archie because he HAD TO, for the title. Obviously he couldn't avoid -that-. I never said he had no chance against fighters he avoided, he just didn't like his chances./ Williams was never champ; whoever he happened to not fight had NOTHING to do w/avoidance. /If you think records mean so much, check the records of the opponents' opponents!
Absurdity has nowt 2 do with anything. Neither Ali or Cosell claimed Williams was in his prime, we c it on this program. I was doubting Ali'd purposely ducked him. He beat fighters Williams was beaten by & Liston was the most feared of all, knocking out a prime Williams quickly, 2X. Foreman was superior & a good few other fighters Ali fought were on par or better, so, thinking about it, 2 claim Ali ducked Williams is pretty absurd. Williams never fought Patterson or Marciano -they ducked him 2?
By the way, Williams lost a SPLIT DECISION to Terrel in 1963. Terrel won by using his huge height & range advantage to STAY AWAY from Williams. WHY? Because WILLIAMS KNOCKED TERREL OUT in the 7th, in 1962
I -love- Ali, & I'm not the one who shot Williams, (who used to be 3X the fighter he was vs Ali). Heck, I don't even hate -you-. But -you- hate -facts-, a -lot-. Do facts hate? Do those who tell you the facts hate? : Nope, facts are just facts. So who -are- the haters? Well, the typical hater is the guy who goes around calling other people haters for no reason.
Fine,"financially it didn't make sense". So we agree, Ali avoided Williams. Considering the chump who knocked Clay down but couldn't finish him, on that day, at worst , Williams slaughters Clay.
Ali doesn't need the Williams fight as a claim to greatness. A man who fought all the great fighters of his era is now a ducker because he fought 1 man after he'd been shot & who fought another 5 yrs. Frazier, Foreman, Norton etc were way past their prime... Ur claim is beyond absurd. A 'main piece of evidence' after so many other great fights with on par & better opponents -unreal! The opposition Patterson fought was superior to Williams', they had parallel careers -Liston Ko'd both quickly 2X.
Yeah, & look who -they- fought to -get- those records. Patterson's known by EVERY boxing fan, (except you, apparently), to have avoided EVERY guy who had a chance against him,(yet he -still- lost to Johanssen): Machen, Foley,Liston,(until he couldn't get away with it),& Williams. Each would destroy Floyd, & Floyd knew it. Do some reading beyond the pumped-up records of every chump out there.
Patterson fought Machen & beat him, Williams managed a draw. Williams never fought Foley or Johanssen. Patterson fought Archie Moore 1yr after Moore floored Marciano. We could go on & on & are straying far from the original debate. Records r the best way coz of the subjectivity of fight fans, critics & the boxers themselves. How many lose a fight on points and admit it? How many have been knocked out from 'a lucky punch'? Forget the reading. Watch the fights and look at the records.
No , he -won- the only -decisive- victory. Split decisions are real-world draws, (one judge gave it to Williams. Why? (Perhaps you might have even agreed if you'd been there). But i guess SDs impress you.
Your not responding 2 what I'm posting. I never said this fight proved anything, I was refuting your claim that Ali ducked Williams except maybe in the obvious first couple of years of his adolescence, when no sane manager would put a young fighter against a world class fighter with eight years under his belt already...who probably wouldn't take the fight anyway. Williams never faced Charles or Walcott for that reason.....no wait....they ducked him too! I'm surprised he found any fights at all!
Cleveland Williams was trying to come back after being shot by a cop's .357 Magnum & undergoing massive surgery to save his life. He was a shadow of his old self, with most of his small insetine removed, & an atrophied leg. Young Ali avoided fighting the healthy Williams.
Williams was formidable for sure, but I believe Ali would have beaten Williams at any stage, because he was just too fast and too good. If he could handle Liston (who destroyed Williams twice, pre-gunshot) he could handle Williams. Ali always had the ability to neutralize power, which is why he defeated many of the heaviest punchers in history.
@@hodell82 Without opinion, Ali-Liston & Liston-Clay are both still subject to debate. The fact is, Williams was always a worthy candidate for Ali, but wasn’t brought until after he wasn’t up to it.
& admiration for The Big Cat. He didn't try put tickets on his performance of Williams as some great achievement, How come he couldn't maintain the same dominating performance against Terrell who was his next opponent. Not saying he was no good, he really dominated him over a 15 round performance, but it clearly shows Williams was not of the same standard or level. So he respected his opponent for shear courage. He gave him his chance and even was a human being, which Ali was.
How clever of you to look that up, but conjecture is still conjecture and that's all you've got however smart you try to be about it...try being the operative word in this case.
Once again, who was avoiding is a matter to conjure with. Machen lost 2 Johansson so Patterson fought him -normal. Prior 2 fighting Patterson Machen was unbeaten 4 two years & was only 4 years older than Floyd, 3 yrs less a pro Patterson didn't have a crystal ball so Machen looked good. Moore was in good condition, Patterson beat him, the rest is conjecture. U do that a lot. Annd u can check the opponents of their opponents & their opponents & u wouldn't have much of a life left, would u now?
There's no proof of this. Williams didn't fight all the good fighters neither did Floyd. The rest is...oh I'm tired of repeating myself. I don't care if I'm alone...you can listen to Burt Sugar and then to Larry Merchant and have two totally different ideas of how it went and who won. So I really don't give a shit. The fights are there to be seen. Just watch them and make up your own mind.
No conjecture: I never said Ali was scared to fight Williams; I never said he'd have lost to a healthy Williams, just had a tougher fight; & even you admitted there was a time in Ali's,(Clay at the time) career that it wouldn't have been a smart fight. You make inferences about what I mean by avoidance; that's all you: I don't make the implications that you're assuming, I just use the word, and the word applies accurately.
He did retire to protect his unbeaten record and it is not necessarily something to be admired. You attribute his retirement to Williams, which is laughable, maybe you should try reading what you've written up till now and have fun.
All you are good for is trying to highlight the fact of how sensational Ali was, maybe you should listen closely to Ali talking in this clip. It does not proof anything beating this Cleveland Williams who wasn't the same of 6 or 7 years ago. What his trying to say to you people is after the .357 slug and operations he wasn't the same. Please don't glorify this victory. Maybe you should look @ that instead of trying to make yourselves some boxing experts when you clearly are not.
1/You still miss the point; It's NOT YOU I refer to, I made the point before you arrived: MANY Ali fans use this fight as ultimate proof of greatness. They obviously have no idea of the shape Williams was in at the time; I inform them. 2/Tho Liston's superior to Williams, many non-ahtletic issues in his Ali fights wouldn't be in force w/Williams. Sonny used to say: "You have to get thru Williams before you get to me". Ali had connections, he didn't have to do that. If he had , he'd have lost.
Stop wasting your time arguing with Vasantha. His the type that will make Larry Holmes victory over Ali and give all the reasons he was washed up and suffering from Parkinson Disease. Well the fact remains Ali knew the Warrior he had in front of him in The Big Cat. You don't go through a .357 slug @ close range and then make a come back to fight Ali. Yes he has a point or half truth to why Cleveland Williams and Ali never fought one another. But the mere fact Cleveland Williams is still champion
That's totally absurd. Marciano didn't retire 2 avoid Sonny Liston, a Williams spanker, no, he retired not 2 go 2 Cleveland! Ali went 2 face & beat Liston easily 2X, but shook b4 the man annihilated by him. He then faced Foreman, Frazier, Norton, Patterson, Quarry, Ellis, Bonavena, Lyle to name a few, but they were all nothing in comparison to Cleveland. Top marks in absurdity & banality go 2 u sir. Rewrite the history books people, according to 'ml s' Cleveland Williams was the greatest! Joker.
You've got no real points to make on the Ali-Williams issue so you keep raising things you've said before and I've answered...then you raise different points. You like our little chats, don't you?
Let's see you put all your boxing skills against a Cleveland Williams who took a .357 slug to the body. You better realize his courage was above any great heavyweight past or present. You want to demonize Williams because he didn't win the fights to become champion you can. Williams was a fighter who would put you in your place in one second. So don't start with your critique about a fighter you can never face or win, even in his diminished capacity.
You write a lot Bash and it's really unnecessary to go into the same arguments all over again. Just read my responses to the other dude which are numerous and comprehensive. Talk about me to him all you like. Enjoy the fights.
No, y have more fights unnecessarily, not more difficult. Childish fake misunderstanding from u, grow up! Everyone has bad days, like when Satterfield KO'd Williams in 3 rnds nearer the start of his career similar 2 Ali's knock down. Cooper knocked Ali down & lost, Frazier knocked him down & he was up in 3 after 15 rnds & rallied, then Frazier rubbed himself all over him (disgusting)not giving him punching room coz Joe'd been so severely pummeled he couldn't even stay 4 a gloating interview.
No we don't. Nice try....very slippery of you. Why should Ali have had to fight say 30 fighters to get to the title if he didn't have to. Now I see where you're coming from...and it's Clay now is it? Nice of you to show your colours and talk about Ali being knocked down and having the character to recover...which he showed later in spades as being a discredit to a chump who couldn't finish the job. I thought you were a reasonable man, but you're just an Ali hater in disguise. How sad for you.
Williams was shot-literally,in his gut,otherwise Ali doesnt fight him,Cooper showed what to do with Cassius,left hook 2 fook,n JOE FRAZIER followed the instructions to perfection......oh yeah Ali ducked a return with Foreman,but he lost all 3 to NORTON,fuck what the 'official'verdicts were.Bullshit that Ali won any fight against KNorton
The best part of this interview is how Ali remains humble with his response to Cosell. He said, I was not fighting a Cleveland Williams at his tops, he was at his promise 6-7 years ago. All class. He is the GOAT.. in many regards. So much respect for the giant of mankind.
What a privilege to be able to see Ali and Cosell's commentary on what may be the best 3 rounds in heavyweight history.
Can't touch this. Simply magnificent
Love this man he's my inspiration in life , truly the greatest, in an out the ring
He knew Williams was still a danger in his diminished capacity, he was no easy beat. Ali didn't attack Williams he was fighting in counter-attack move, waiting for opportunities to present and take them without hesitation. Williams was a hard fight for Ali because of the way Ali fought him. With London and Cooper he was on offensive With Williams he was defensive but still managed a decisive victory. But this wasn't the Williams of Sonny Liston era.
Williams was ducked by all the heavyweights of his era, because of his punching power and strength. Ali again proved that by saying how Williams was both strong, powerful and courageous. This man had no quit and that should be enough proof of the fighter Williams once was. People can say all kinds of compliments with Ali beating Williams, but Ali even said does not proof anything by beating Williams, he knew the physical and conditioning of Williams before the fight, he had great respect
Yes, in his prime, ducked by "Clay".
Ali admits that Williams was top notch five years earlier but not really when he fought Ali. Fair enough. That’s true. Williams is 34 years old here and he didn’t box at all in ‘65 because he was recovering from getting shot by a .cop’s 357. I hope Ali treated Williams with respect and didn’t run him down like he did with so many of his opponents.,
He was well past his prime but people forget Williams had to beat some ass just to get to fight the world champ. He won four fights in between him getting shot and the Ali fight and had a 9 win streak going. He fought for six more years after this fight
Muhammad Ali was a great boxer, tactician and had excellent ring generalship, but he knew when facing Williams he was a force and had to try and KO him quickly. He did not want to be in a brawling situation as with George Chuvalo, he knew it by admitting the hitting power in this clip. He didn't want to have the fight prolonged so he ducked, weaved and kept his distance and used his speed to his advantage to smash Williams. But that does not mean Williams was like Brian London who was nothing.
Beginning w/his loss to Floyd, the formerly great Eddie Machen began the end of his career, winning only 3 of his last 11 fights. He was done. Yes; Patterson -did- have a crystal ball; it told him: "You have almost nothing to lose, take the fight with Machen." Previously, this same ball told him: "You have too much to lose, stay away from Machen." The ball had a name: Cus D'Amato.
Why fight a more difficult fight if you don't need to? You're right. I never said Ali was irrational. But you're wrong about the other thing: We do agree. 'Avoided', 'passed on', 'chose not to', 'delayed', 'din't need to'. All mean the same thing. I love Ali. He probably would've beaten Williams, but no matter how 'good' the reason, he -chose- not to fight him, until Williams was a wreck. Yes, when it was a fighter named Clay in the fight, it's still Clay in reference; when it's Ali, it's Ali.
I have one shirt with Ali on it it makes me feel like I can box anybody in the universe lloll, RIP Ali the Goat
I agree, but then that isn't really saying anything about Williams except that Rocky retired early so as not to be beaten by any number of the good fighters that were coming up...wow, stop the press!
What fights are you referring to?
correction: It's quite possible that fighters like Johanssen were avoiding Williams.
Ali said that this fight was the first time he unveiled the 'Ali Shuffle' , but he forgot that he did it in the 2nd Liston fight
I remember in a article Ali called the Sonny liston 2 match a “failed shuffle” since liston kinda blocked it and caused ali to just shuffle without any punches thrown.
What I said was conjecture too, but I only applied it to the first couple of years of his and any fighter's career, that you wouldn't take on a guy with 8 years experience particularly when you've just turned 18 and the other guy is a top ranked contender of 26.
This is once again pure conjecture on my part.
Floyd & Cus are famous for avoiding all possible losses. All boxing experts agree..one of the few boxing issues where no experts disputes exist. Thus, yes, we can fairly "read Floyd's mind" in this case. You're entitled to your -opinion- that Ali would've beat Foreman again, (perhaps he would have), but the -fact- is that Ali refused to fight Foreman again.
Who's talking about age? Williams was PERMANENTLY DAMAGED, from being shot and the subsequent surgery."Only 33"? So what? His injuries would've ruined him even if he'd been 23. The point is: Using his fight with Williams as evidence of Ali's greatness is absurd.
I've read that Williams still had the bullet in his body
Caps are for raising the voice, there to be used. So the points you miss aren't "worth bothering about" ? What a fine debater you've turned out to be.
Marciano retired to protect his unbeaten record. Plain and simple. If you think you'll keep winning, you don't do that. Who cares who the opponent is?: Rocky knew he was due to lose, and he didn't have the honor to pass the title on in the ring. Being undefeated in this manner isn't anything to be proud of. Williams was a great fighter, but no match for Liston. Try reading what I actually write before you make fun.
I guess I don't 'get' your subtle, sophisticated sense of absurdity. I see a new name in the conversation, I used it.
not arguing if this happened or these conditions took place. That's all conjecture but the reality was that Williams performance to come back after the shooting incident that should have instantly killed him was beyond measure of courage, Williams lost a kidney 10 meters of his small intestines and the bullet lodged in his hip bone causing his right foot to shake. He was never and will never be the same opponent Sonny Liston faced. Liston faced a Warrior who landed bombs.
A win is a win otherwise it would be called a draw.
Right,YOU threw Rocky in, I -responded-.
You're not responding to what I'm posting! No, Ali -doesn't- need this fight to be great, but many of his -fans- USE THIS FIGHT as ultimate proof of his greatness, whereas this fight actually proves nothing. Pay attention!
Great video, interview too. Why did Williams have zero fights between June, 1954 and Aug, 1956? He was young, being born in 1933 (on the same day as Mike Tyson: June 30). Marciano fought his finale in Sept, 1955, and retired in spring, 1956. Why was Williams inactive then?
He was shot and was in the hospital fighting for his life.
@@marghubarostami6547 That was years later. He was in the military in the mid 50s. I found my answer after I wrote this. Thanks for writing.
@@BruceAChristie yup military idk if he wouldve been better if he didnt enlist but he greatly was inspired by joe louis
Like the way you know how Floyd felt. Ali would have beaten George again, the guys who took him closer where Norton and Frazier. Foreman would have killed Williams as he had crumbled under Sonny and Foreman was better. Ali even beat Shavers when he was really going downhill....Lyle hit hard and nearly beat George. Foreman had lost to Jimmy Young who fought similarly to Ali.
Relevant indeed. Johanssen KO'd Machen KO'd almost immediately, ther was never a boxing match. Floyd felt he'd "slick" his way out of that possibility, outbox Johanssen "by a mile". 1st fight, he's wrong. 2nd & 3rd fights were contracted rematches for Floyd to get back & keep the title. I never said floyd -couldn't- beat better fighters, just that didn't like to take the chance.
Not every post I make is about Williams. -You- brought up Rocky, so I gave you my opinion about Rocky. If you don't wanna hear about other fighters, don't start the thread.
Check the dictionary. "Avoid": 1/Stay clear of. 2/Keep from happening. 3/Keep out of of the way. 4/Refrain from doing. / No negative connotation is required. All that's required is knowledge & choice. EX: A1/I know the light is red. A2/I know what a red light means. B/I choose not to cross the street when the light is red. C/Thus, I avoid speeding cars.
Everything in the fight game is about chance, probability and calculation. Yes we can sit here and debate or argue what a prime Williams would've done to an Ali. Remember this Ali was told by Liston to face Williams and then come and face me for the title. Ali knew that they didn't want that hurdle so they pestered Liston until he relented. Good job on Ali part. But Ali was given the chance and he ducked him for good reason in 1964. Yes that's reality and how life apparently works, we are
Williams was a stand-up fighter suited 2 Ali, swarmers gave him trouble. Stand up fighters can b beaten with speed, Ali was the fastest, end of story. Why should Ali have gone through every conceivable challenge b4 becoming champion if he didn't have 2? Financially it didn't make sense. Once he became champion he was a fighting champion. He didn't shoot Williams & whatever Sonny may have said, fact was he dispatched Williams very quickly, 2X. I'm not missing a single point here.
Williams fought whoever he could get. He avoided no one, but he had no title to offer his opponents, just a tough fight; thus t h e y avoided -him- , (no caps, happy?). Like you say: Why -should- they, if they don't need to? on the other hand: Floyd could fight anyone he wanted to, having a title to offer. Who -did- he 'want' to? Not Liston (until he -had- to), not Machen (until Eddie was finished & Floyd had no title to lose, not Foley, not Terrel, & not Williams.
This the one
You 'like' reasons Ali avoided Williams, (1st he wasn't ready, then was fighting other guys, ...that's fine, no big deal. Ali was great, never said he wasn't, & his reasons to not fight Williams were just fine, but it's still avoidance; kinda like when he wouldn't give Foreman a rematch: George was stupid to not have it in the contract; he thought it was a sure W/KO for him. Ali was smart to not fight George again, there was no good reason to, one good reason not to. But it's still avoidance.
There's a reason they call it a split decision.
I don't doubt that you have other interests, but I didn't start anything...I threw Rocky in as an absurdity and you decided to make a point out it.
Absurd: There's a sub-culture of Ali fans (you've apparently not noticed), that uses this fight as the main piece of evidence of Ali's greatness. Of course it's not Ali, nor Cosell. Not in "his prime"? Ha! That'd be accounted for by age alone. No. It was -far- beyond not being in "his prime"; he was DAMAGED GOODS. YOU DON"T THINK -PATTERSON- DUCKED WILLIAMS? You're very funny. Patterson ducked EVERYONE, until public opinion FORCED him to fight Liston.
Looks like a small ring. Big disadvantage for a young mobile Ali. But of course he overcame it.
NO, read more carefully: I dont attribute Rocky's retirement to Williams. Williams was merely one of -many- fighters who Rocky wasn't SURE he'd beat. And he wanted to be SURE, which is a chicken-shit attitude for pro boxer
By the way, your post doesn't refer to any of the points that you DID miss.
U keep raising points all over the place & I cover most of them, but it's hard 2 keep up -some I have answered & don't wish 2 repeat myself & a few are kinda off the point. Like you still keep on about avoidance & not having titles 2 offer. In the time frame there wasn't much time 4 Ali 2 face CW b4 66 (reasons previously outlined) If 1 could get a title fight quicker who wouldn't, then fight all the rest as champ. Ali was a fighting champ & faced more of the worthy opposition than other champs
Patterson overall fought people with on par or better records. Look it up, I did.
"Said before", "different points": Sounds like everything anyone's ever said since the beginning of time. Is there a 3rd category? I love our chats. Sometimes you have to re-word concepts a few times before others get the point. One more time: 1/Ali's win over a damaged Williams is completely meaningless. Why do many Ali fans use it as evidence of Ali's greatness? 2/For -whatever- reasons, Ali -chose- not to fight Williams in his prime. Win or lose, it would've been a very different fight.
Actually, upon further thought,while Marciano, wouldn't technically be considered to have ducked the up & coming Williams, YES, it's fair to say that Rock's decision to retire was in no small part reinforced by Williams entering the competition. What the heck , it's ducking of the worst sort; permanent ducking. In Ali's case, he took fights he knew he'd win, avoided doubtful ones. No great sin, still, a real choice that he made: Don't fight Williams in his prime.
As an absurd example...there's a difference which you are purposely ignoring. You made a main point out of it, I responded.
Even on your part, the only conjecture is in regard to the motives, not the facts. The facts, (or, at worst, a set of -very- fair assumptions): 1/Ali & Williams were aware of each other. 2/Williams was willing to fight Ali. 3/They didn't fight until Williams was badly hurt -&- considerably older. This fulfills the test of avoidance. No prejudice re motive or assumption as to the possible result if they had fought previously.
remember an Ali interview where said " as soon as I knock THAT bum off, I'm gonna take Cleveland Williams or Billy Daniels both in the same night if they can arrange it. I'll whup both of the bums" so yes in 1962 he knew of Williams and he didn't fight Daniels until late 1962
Williams lost 2 Terrel & twice 2 Liston by the time Ali got his title shot. Ali's title shot came unusually fast due 2 his flamboyance & publicity stunts. He only turned pro in 60 -Williams being a pro 4 8 years already, so Ali wasn't ready 4 him in 61 & 2. In 63 Ali fought rated contender Doug Jones while Williams decisioned Daniels who Ali ko'd in 7 & lost to Terrel. Ali beat Liston in 64 & didn't fight till the rematch in the year Williams was shot -'65. At their meeting in 66 he was only 33.
Williams won the first match with terrell, but Williams still won the 2nd match with terrell, Williams got scammed. Terrell got knocked out in one of the rounds and terrell did all the hugging and holding and cheap blows. Rewatch the fight I was scoring on points and Williams won without doubt
"The opposition Patterson fought was superior to Williams" ???? Sorry, up until now,I thought were attempting to resolve a misunderstanding, but if you really believe THAT!....
Probably coz they don't know about CW's injury. Would have been a different fight...the avoidance thing is conjecture, which you like pushing. By all means do, but passing it off as fact only satisfies only the uninformed and the haters.
RIP
So what, he still lost. Anyone can knock anyone out. I'm no fan of Terrel (dirty fighter, liar...) but he did beat him and might have also done so in a third bout...height range.
More fights? Not necessarily: There's this advanced concept called fighting one guy instead of another. (I'll assume you're using Frazier to be 'absurd' again, and won't respond to that.)
Based on his opponent's records Patterson overall fought better fighters than Williams did. Who he was afraid of...if anyone is pure conjecture. Better to stick to the facts if you wanna argue effectively.
Floyd didn't fight washed-up Machen til his title wasn't on the line. Floyd refused Machen when he was champ & Machen was dangerous. Floyd fought OLD Archie because he HAD TO, for the title. Obviously he couldn't avoid -that-. I never said he had no chance against fighters he avoided, he just didn't like his chances./ Williams was never champ; whoever he happened to not fight had NOTHING to do w/avoidance. /If you think records mean so much, check the records of the opponents' opponents!
Absurdity has nowt 2 do with anything. Neither Ali or Cosell claimed Williams was in his prime, we c it on this program. I was doubting Ali'd purposely ducked him. He beat fighters Williams was beaten by & Liston was the most feared of all, knocking out a prime Williams quickly, 2X. Foreman was superior & a good few other fighters Ali fought were on par or better, so, thinking about it, 2 claim Ali ducked Williams is pretty absurd. Williams never fought Patterson or Marciano -they ducked him 2?
By the way, Williams lost a SPLIT DECISION to Terrel in 1963. Terrel won by using his huge height & range advantage to STAY AWAY from Williams. WHY? Because WILLIAMS KNOCKED TERREL OUT in the 7th, in 1962
Machen lost to Johansson so Patterson fought Johansson....why not answer that point.......that's pretty relevant, isn't it?!
Or maybe not. 'Chicken or egg' argument.
I -love- Ali, & I'm not the one who shot Williams, (who used to be 3X the fighter he was vs Ali). Heck, I don't even hate -you-. But -you- hate -facts-, a -lot-. Do facts hate? Do those who tell you the facts hate? : Nope, facts are just facts. So who -are- the haters? Well, the typical hater is the guy who goes around calling other people haters for no reason.
Ali doesn't sound very animated
toby099 ...was depressed with draft and prison issues...one of my fav fights!
Fine,"financially it didn't make sense". So we agree, Ali avoided Williams. Considering the chump who knocked Clay down but couldn't finish him, on that day, at worst , Williams slaughters Clay.
If I missed any it's because they weren't worth bothering about and I hate capitals, so unnecessary.
Ali doesn't need the Williams fight as a claim to greatness. A man who fought all the great fighters of his era is now a ducker because he fought 1 man after he'd been shot & who fought another 5 yrs. Frazier, Foreman, Norton etc were way past their prime... Ur claim is beyond absurd. A 'main piece of evidence' after so many other great fights with on par & better opponents -unreal! The opposition Patterson fought was superior to Williams', they had parallel careers -Liston Ko'd both quickly 2X.
Yeah, & look who -they- fought to -get- those records. Patterson's known by EVERY boxing fan, (except you, apparently), to have avoided EVERY guy who had a chance against him,(yet he -still- lost to Johanssen): Machen, Foley,Liston,(until he couldn't get away with it),& Williams. Each would destroy Floyd, & Floyd knew it. Do some reading beyond the pumped-up records of every chump out there.
Patterson fought Machen & beat him, Williams managed a draw. Williams never fought Foley or Johanssen. Patterson fought Archie Moore 1yr after Moore floored Marciano. We could go on & on & are straying far from the original debate. Records r the best way coz of the subjectivity of fight fans, critics & the boxers themselves. How many lose a fight on points and admit it? How many have been knocked out from 'a lucky punch'? Forget the reading. Watch the fights and look at the records.
No , he -won- the only -decisive- victory. Split decisions are real-world draws, (one judge gave it to Williams. Why? (Perhaps you might have even agreed if you'd been there). But i guess SDs impress you.
Let's just say, they had no good reason to fight him..does that feel better?
Your not responding 2 what I'm posting. I never said this fight proved anything, I was refuting your claim that Ali ducked Williams except maybe in the obvious first couple of years of his adolescence, when no sane manager would put a young fighter against a world class fighter with eight years under his belt already...who probably wouldn't take the fight anyway.
Williams never faced Charles or Walcott for that reason.....no wait....they ducked him too! I'm surprised he found any fights at all!
Cleveland Williams was trying to come back after being shot by a cop's .357 Magnum & undergoing massive surgery to save his life. He was a shadow of his old self, with most of his small insetine removed, & an atrophied leg. Young Ali avoided fighting the healthy Williams.
Williams was formidable for sure, but I believe Ali would have beaten Williams at any stage, because he was just too fast and too good. If he could handle Liston (who destroyed Williams twice, pre-gunshot) he could handle Williams. Ali always had the ability to neutralize power, which is why he defeated many of the heaviest punchers in history.
@@hodell82 Without opinion, Ali-Liston & Liston-Clay are both still subject to debate. The fact is, Williams was always a worthy candidate for Ali, but wasn’t brought until after he wasn’t up to it.
& admiration for The Big Cat. He didn't try put tickets on his performance of Williams as some great achievement, How come he couldn't maintain the same dominating performance against Terrell who was his next opponent. Not saying he was no good, he really dominated him over a 15 round performance, but it clearly shows Williams was not of the same standard or level. So he respected his opponent for shear courage. He gave him his chance and even was a human being, which Ali was.
How clever of you to look that up, but conjecture is still conjecture and that's all you've got however smart you try to be about it...try being the operative word in this case.
Once again, who was avoiding is a matter to conjure with. Machen lost 2 Johansson so Patterson fought him -normal. Prior 2 fighting Patterson Machen was unbeaten 4 two years & was only 4 years older than Floyd, 3 yrs less a pro Patterson didn't have a crystal ball so Machen looked good. Moore was in good condition, Patterson beat him, the rest is conjecture. U do that a lot. Annd u can check the opponents of their opponents & their opponents & u wouldn't have much of a life left, would u now?
There's no proof of this. Williams didn't fight all the good fighters neither did Floyd. The rest is...oh I'm tired of repeating myself. I don't care if I'm alone...you can listen to Burt Sugar and then to Larry Merchant and have two totally different ideas of how it went and who won. So I really don't give a shit. The fights are there to be seen. Just watch them and make up your own mind.
No conjecture: I never said Ali was scared to fight Williams; I never said he'd have lost to a healthy Williams, just had a tougher fight; & even you admitted there was a time in Ali's,(Clay at the time) career that it wouldn't have been a smart fight. You make inferences about what I mean by avoidance; that's all you: I don't make the implications that you're assuming, I just use the word, and the word applies accurately.
He did retire to protect his unbeaten record and it is not necessarily something to be admired. You attribute his retirement to Williams, which is laughable, maybe you should try reading what you've written up till now and have fun.
All you are good for is trying to highlight the fact of how sensational Ali was, maybe you should listen closely to Ali talking in this clip. It does not proof anything beating this Cleveland Williams who wasn't the same of 6 or 7 years ago. What his trying to say to you people is after the .357 slug and operations he wasn't the same. Please don't glorify this victory. Maybe you should look @ that instead of trying to make yourselves some boxing experts when you clearly are not.
1/You still miss the point; It's NOT YOU I refer to, I made the point before you arrived: MANY Ali fans use this fight as ultimate proof of greatness. They obviously have no idea of the shape Williams was in at the time; I inform them. 2/Tho Liston's superior to Williams, many non-ahtletic issues in his Ali fights wouldn't be in force w/Williams. Sonny used to say: "You have to get thru Williams before you get to me". Ali had connections, he didn't have to do that. If he had , he'd have lost.
Stop wasting your time arguing with Vasantha. His the type that will make Larry Holmes victory over Ali and give all the reasons he was washed up and suffering from Parkinson Disease. Well the fact remains Ali knew the Warrior he had in front of him in The Big Cat. You don't go through a .357 slug @ close range and then make a come back to fight Ali. Yes he has a point or half truth to why Cleveland Williams and Ali never fought one another. But the mere fact Cleveland Williams is still champion
That's totally absurd. Marciano didn't retire 2 avoid Sonny Liston, a Williams spanker, no, he retired not 2 go 2 Cleveland! Ali went 2 face & beat Liston easily 2X, but shook b4 the man annihilated by him. He then faced Foreman, Frazier, Norton, Patterson, Quarry, Ellis, Bonavena, Lyle to name a few, but they were all nothing in comparison to Cleveland. Top marks in absurdity & banality go 2 u sir. Rewrite the history books people, according to 'ml s' Cleveland Williams was the greatest! Joker.
You've got no real points to make on the Ali-Williams issue so you keep raising things you've said before and I've answered...then you raise different points. You like our little chats, don't you?
Let's see you put all your boxing skills against a Cleveland Williams who took a .357 slug to the body. You better realize his courage was above any great heavyweight past or present. You want to demonize Williams because he didn't win the fights to become champion you can. Williams was a fighter who would put you in your place in one second. So don't start with your critique about a fighter you can never face or win, even in his diminished capacity.
You write a lot Bash and it's really unnecessary to go into the same arguments all over again. Just read my responses to the other dude which are numerous and comprehensive. Talk about me to him all you like.
Enjoy the fights.
No, y have more fights unnecessarily, not more difficult. Childish fake misunderstanding from u, grow up!
Everyone has bad days, like when Satterfield KO'd Williams in 3 rnds nearer the start of his career similar 2 Ali's knock down. Cooper knocked Ali down & lost, Frazier knocked him down & he was up in 3 after 15 rnds & rallied, then Frazier rubbed himself all over him (disgusting)not giving him punching room coz Joe'd been so severely pummeled he couldn't even stay 4 a gloating interview.
No we don't. Nice try....very slippery of you. Why should Ali have had to fight say 30 fighters to get to the title if he didn't have to. Now I see where you're coming from...and it's Clay now is it? Nice of you to show your colours and talk about Ali being knocked down and having the character to recover...which he showed later in spades as being a discredit to a chump who couldn't finish the job. I thought you were a reasonable man, but you're just an Ali hater in disguise. How sad for you.
HATER ALERT!!
Williams was shot-literally,in his gut,otherwise Ali doesnt fight him,Cooper showed what to do with Cassius,left hook 2 fook,n JOE FRAZIER followed the instructions to perfection......oh yeah Ali ducked a return with Foreman,but he lost all 3 to NORTON,fuck what the 'official'verdicts were.Bullshit that Ali won any fight against KNorton