The TRUTH About ARROWS. . Aron Snyder Arrow Conversation
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- Опубліковано 14 лип 2021
- The TRUTH About ARROWS. . Aron Snyder Arrow Conversation.. We sit down and talk with Aron Snyder of Kifaru International. Aron has a unique perspective because he gets to spend 100's of days in the field every season either hunting or guiding. This is an honest conversation about his experience from the field. #Kifaru #Elkshape
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This was a fun conversation to record. Completely candid Aron and Dan in Aron's living room just sitting down, kicking it, talk about their hunting experience(s).. Hope ya'll enjoyed got one more Snyder video in the hopper for next week where he's breaking down his backpack system. Headed to TAC and signing off - TC
Would love to see a candid honest conversation between Dan and Troy. Dan has talked about his theory, but not actually talked to him. It would definitely be an interesting conversation.
@@c.b.7830 for sure! All good. One thing to keep in mind from this perspective is it's recommendations for the western hunter, generally speaking. - TC
@@ElkShape I definitely get it. In fact, I'm a fan of Troy's, but I still built my arrows around 440gr for Midwest whitetail (all be it with 20%FOC). There is something to be said about the math behind it all as well as the practicality. Would be awesome to have 2 guys with totally different perspectives in the same room on camera.
He definitely has not listened to what troy says .
Science over opinion any day
Troy preaches shoot higher foc as long as it flies well and he does say to shot the arrow for your style...
I love what u do "elk shape" but this is the worst content u have put out .....look forward to some more of your good stuff
@@ElkShape have any of y'all or Aron ever shot an elk in the shoulder joint/ largest bone using an 800gr arrow with a sharpened single bevel?
Snyder's setup falls in line with the RF's recommendations. None of the counterarguments to RF made sense because he doesn't say everyone should shoot 800 grains, he says try and get to the 500s and also says raise weight and FOC to a point where your trajectory is still acceptable. We also know from RF and Ashby that a shoulder breakthrough is effective with a plan B arrow in a plan B scenario. He spends a ton of time talking about getting perfect arrow flight, knowing where to aim, and using sharp, strong broadheads as well.
You are correct!! 👍
Dr, Ashby & RF Troy have the science to back them up, including a ballistics engineer w/ Doppler Radar. Troy is a Respiratory Therapist. So, he knows a little about anatomy in front of the Diaphragm. Aron says the same things as Troy. His wife shoots an Iron Will.
I bet this guy hasn't even read The Ashby Report. Let alone his '12 Arrow Penetration Factors'. 580 & a CoC broadhead. Huh,480gr that's over 550gr (Also, 500gr the point he found a difference in penetration) & a CoC broadhead that RF mentioned as a minimum for a Plan B arrow. RF said they were on a podcast together. Did he ever say on a podcast "It's like grade school math for arrows?" on a podcast with the guy from Texas. Troy said they did a podcast together. When Troy said '800grs,' he was talking about shooting hogs above 250lbs covered in dried mud & over 1/2+inch armor plate on both sides. If you're going to trash people you might do a little more research. He is so full of himself. Jealous??
They shoot 70+# with a 580gr arrow. Duh, that going to give you allot of speed & Momentum. RF is shooting 300+# hogs with a 65# bow. IIRC- One was with his wife's bow.
Yep!
Totally right
The big difference is that Aron shoots 80# out of a faster bow. Aron targets 280 fps, not arrow mass. He wants the best of both world. The difference is RF says to shoot a trajectory that is acceptable but then says speed doesn't matter. Range error isn't significant. Giving animals more time to move doesn't matter. Etc. The problem isn't that he's wrong about everything, just that he's not right about everything.
@RanchFairy does not push 800 grain arrows, he pushes over 575
Also he says to just not shoot twizzlers
Also he pushes these as plan B arrows
Yep, 550+ set ups with cut on contact broad heads. Never heard him push 800 grain sets ups. Accuracy is always number one bit shots aren't always perfect.
And what was this Aron guy talking about at the end? Like a 525 and mechs for black bear and turkey. So there about 25 gr apart.
very true....you hear the disdain in this guys continued use of the words "800 grain" or that RF preaches getting your arrows tuned. im a newbie but hell i understand RFs ideas!
Aaron is not necessarily talking about RF, but some guys are promoting 800grains.
Also 80# bow vs 65# is also an important factor
Currently, I have arrows at 525 grains, 705 grains, up to 924 grains, all high FOC, single bevels for all, and three bows perfectly tuned to shoot its particular arrow depending on the mood I am in. That said, this whole arrow weight debate is getting old and people are turning into snobs about it. Best advice I heard was shoot a cut on contact and tune your bow and if a particular overall arrow weight WORKS for you, then it is neither wrong or stupid.
This. It’s a compromise no matter what you choose. I like high 500’s TAW. 200gr heads work well for me, fine tune the insert weight for desired FOC for arrows I plan to shoot over 40yds. Anything under 40 seems to fly with minimal drop, even with 300gr up front.
This is literally what the ranch fairy preaches. His first concern is arrow strength, that it is tuned, and heavy weight (650+) only comes into question when you go after the massive African game or massive hogs. He generally suggests a 550gn arrow that is actually tuned to the bow
*perfect arrow flight, high structural integrity, razor sharp…..*
RF and others have mentioned several times that 90% of their shots are within 30 yards , if you are shooting an arrow that's 500 + grains the heavier you go the more distance you sacrifice,.. I don't think you can shoot an arrow that's 800 gr more than 40 yards with an 80 lbs set up.
One takeaway from the Ashby report, is to always remember that it was written to allow the usage of archery equipment in Africa. It provided enough data to change the laws regarding methods of take on African Plainsgame.
Yes but don't miss the principle. Who else is doing or has done what Ashby has done? We can throw shade but we don't have a 27 year study.
@@davidholliday2703 Not sure who you are responding to (a deleted comment maybe?) but Tyler Nickel's comment is in support of Dr. Ashby's work.
I really appreciate the conversations you have on this channel without bashing anyone’s ideas. Open conversations are great and the only way we can learn. When it comes to the Ashby foundation, I think people have taken FOC and arrow weight and put way too much importance on them from the studies. All of the factors work together. I feel like everyone agrees with factor 1.structural integrity, and 2. Perfect arrow flight. 650+ grains is the last of the 12 factors. It is the least important factor of the 12 factors to achieve the stated goal for the Ashby foundation: achieve the most penetration possible with the intent of a full pass through. One statement Ashby made that is rarely mentioned is in factor 6. Arrow mass - “…you should always use the heaviest arrow possible that has a trajectory that YOU still find acceptable.”
Weight isn’t everything, but a perfect arrow for you is.
Happy hunting, keep up the great work.
He trashed Dr. Ashby/ Ashby Foundation & Troy. But, he says the same things as they do. I don't think he knows about the 12 Factors. Watch it again.
Man I love these type of videos. For someone who is “newer” to archery hunting (I grew up rifle hunting deer in SC) it feels like I am in the room listening while y’all talk. Brings back to a lot of memories of me doing the same thing while my dad and uncle talk about rifle hunting!
Ranch Fairy doesn't say to just shoot 800g. There's a hole process to go through. You should watch his videos you guys are much closer to being on the same page than you think
That’s exactly what I was thinking
Seems to me he pushes perfect arrow flight, high integrity, and razor sharp as more important. But what do I know?
850g 500 out front 26% FOC but I will need the antelope to be at 15 yards.
and that antelope would be DOUSED - TC
A 600 grain arrow at 50 yards on a black bear seemed to work rather well.
Shoot with that weight and the critter has time to cook dinner, bed, shed its antlers, and breed before the arrow gets there hahahaha
Sight tape lookin like a receipt from Walmart after shopping for a months worth of groceries and thats just from 20-40 hahahahaha
Might as well just go for broke and stick a nock on a fuckin javelin
Thank you all for the info BUT Man team up with each other stop this bashing system it's all about ethical kill shots
All that to say….. you agree with RF.
Nice practical conversation. I have also experimented with arrows 200 to 340 spine from 450 to 725g total weight with various inserts (static/spinning) and point weights. I have found at 68lbs and 28.5" DL that my bow is quieter and more dead in hand between 220 to 240 fps with 600 to 700g arrow builds. At the ranges I limit myself to this is totally acceptable and I find that my bow paper tunes very closely between 200/250 spine with total arrow weights of 550 to 650 grains. I have experimented over a wide range of weights and spines, and this is where I have landed. Had some 340's left over and decided to build some turkey arrows this year with a little more speed. They worked out to 440g and 270fps and paper tune nearly identical to the heavier spine/weight arrows on the same setup...go figure? Thanks for the great content, really appreciate what you guys are doing, be one with the bow...👍
Ranch fairy does promote very high foc and heavy arrow, but I believe he does understand the happy medium. His application is for shooting big pigs up close and he knows that. If you watch his video about an ideal elk arrows he says to probably get to about 550g and 15% foc.
Agreed
Well said.
Yeah he says 475-550 for the average setup. And he will always say get perfect arrow flight and practice with perfect arrows vs practicing with bad arrows. His words "you can't out form bad arrows" he is 💯 into ABT Never says just load up the front and blindly fling them.
Well his most current videos are testing speed, KE, and trajectory out to 60 yards. All of his points are to further his narrative of “adult arrows”. The glaring stat that he does not show is how much the 708 grain arrow will drop compared to the 472 grain arrow at 60 yards.
I mean it’s cool that the heavy arrow didn’t lose as much speed, but it also dropped 3 extra feet.
I like his videos and I think he has some good points, but you lose me when you do not tell the whole story of arrow flight.
That is very true. And in one if he's videos he clearly states that he shoots animals from 14 to 20 yards and if you want to go past 40 yards those plan b arrows are not for you. But he is an expert in arrow building for structural integrity and silence and i love troy's videos. Hes the reason i built me some 550 grain aftermaths with 220 grains upfront. Those arrows are damn near indestructible and really really silent. Troy got me with the "550 grains is the weight where you stop wounding animals to death and start actually killing them" 😅
Man I wish I knew half of what I’ve learned in the last year from you and the people you have on here. I missed possibly the same buck antelope twice within a week. First time at 40yrds and the second broadside at 20. Excitement and inexperience got me. I took my eye off/out of my pep and never looked back through it. If I get one kill with my bow this year that will make my year. Thanks for so much for the educational content.
I have been waiting for this one for quite a while. Not too many people out there have hunted as many places and taken as many varieties of animals with a bow 🏹 as Aron has. So any knowledge that he can share is extremely helpful.
I respect that he doesn't mention Troy by name when mentioning the extra heavy high foc arrow guy from Texas shooting pigs over corn as his test matter.
Arrows are tools like a hammer, certain ones work better in certain situations. I agree it's best to find a happy medium that shoots phenomenal out of your bow at all the ethical hunting ranges, has structural integrity and a razor sharp fixed blade broadhead.
Thanks guys for sharing this. Time to go to work. 🏹 ABT
Coffee with Dan & Aron. It's gonna be a good day. ABT!
ABT
Please leave a link to where ranch fairy tells hunters they should shoot 800gr. I would like to watch.
There isn’t one. I like Snyder but he is wrong in saying the ranch fairy recommends 800g. That’s just ridiculous. Ranch Fairy recommends a heavy arrow with cut in contact head. Sound familiar? Snyder recommends the same thing. Just because one guys says maybe 450g and another says shoved 500g, who cares. Disappointing to see them be so flippant about someone else and not being truthful.
Uhhh ranch fairy 100 percent talking about shooting 700+ arrows. Just UA-cam his videos. You'll find one eventually.
@@wyattcasey8066 i know he talks about it. he plays around with all sorts of different arrows. just like most people do. but, he never says you have to shoot a 800g arrow. snyder said in the video that "some guy" recommends shooting 800g arrows. simply not true. Ranch Fairy recommends heavy arrows and cut on contact head just like snyder. snyder is wrong with what he said.
@@wyattcasey8066 Ranch Fairy used a 700+gr arrow with a Doppler radar system....to test energy retention at distance. He used all different weights, to find out retention at all ranges of the spectrum.
Haven't heard him recommend people using that heavy a setup.
Literally his last IG post is a hog where is advertising shooting a 40# compound with a 730 grain arrow. Going 150 FPS. How on earth is that not telling people to shoot insane arrows?
Great combo of guys to listen to. Love both of your podcasts.
Love this! More people need to listen to this! Keep up the sweet content!
Damn. I guess I'll have to go down to around 460-470 grains from my 800 grain arrows. LOL. Another great episode, Dan. Lovin all the knowledge being shared. Thank!
I'm almost to 800 I'm at 757 grains my self
Back to back great video’s. I liked this format much better, where the audio is continuous and the video shows B-roll and components. What you guys are doing at Elkshape is really taking the lead on hunting and providing great information without being biased. Keep up the great work!
He recommends 550 if it will fly more than the crazy heavy stuff
What scent is that candle on the table Dan?
Elk estrus? Coyote urine?
Followed Aron since I started on UA-cam. In my humble opinion he's the best of the best when it comes to bow hunting. Never caught him in a lie, change his opinion, yes, but that comes along with his research. If followed his advice from the start, after proving to myself that he is right. I've made several comments mfjj interviews, they we're Aaron's facts that's been proven.
Y'all are doing a great job interviewing some of the best archers and hunters on this earth. Keep the cards and letters coming.
Great conversation Keep up the good work!
I have a pack from kifaru I have had it for YEARS love it.
The topic of heavy arrows is funny. Reason for this is people literally bounce off extremes.
Snyder is one of the best in the industry. I respect his absolute honesty
would love to see you sit down with ranch fairy to compare data and experience or the hunting public who "lob logs" on spot and stalks all over the country as well as taking the same set up to elk hunting. all points that were completely ignored and if anything you were misleading on.
@jsfea01 Aronm sat down with him recently on the Kifaru cast if you haven't seen it. They basically agree on everything lol
@@HickLif3 OK, RF did mention that podcast with THP guys. ua-cam.com/video/O11e4WsvcqQ/v-deo.html . I wonder why he trashed him?
Nice sit down arrow conversation thanks guys
Me and Aron are dead nuts same when it comes to the idea of arrow weight, etc. Ive pissed a ton of people off with this mindset. But when it works, it works
Great info! My theory is too go heavy enough in the front for to pull the arrow threw instead of trying to get the arrow to push the broad head threw
Keeping it happy medium! Sounds good to me!
Very insightful conversation, I learned a few things, thanks.
I think there is a lot of validity to this conversation. I think that somewhere in the middle is a great combo of speed and momentum. I'm shooting around 515 grains at about 265 fps. This seems to be a good blend of speed vs momentum for me in the whitetail woods. Pigs at feeders and 17 yard shots you can shoot any weight because you don't have a rutted up buck changing the distance at a moments notice and that is when yardage estimation comes in and can make or break the hunt.
And pigs never move.....
@@pensnut08 pigs do move but usually they come to a feeder and pretty much stay there…not like a buck after a doe that may move 10yards very quickly.
Something Aron touched on and explained but I would have liked to see him gone more into detail about and showed on camera is just how much arrow drop you have with a traditional bow and flinging logs.... 20,25,30,35,40 yards...Just how important it is to tune your arrows with a Trad bow, how much it will improve your accuracy and why it should all be known and taught for hunter ethical reasons....I now shoot a 60lb reflex/deflex trad bow 492grn carbon arrow with 4" feathers, 400 spine-this arrow setup has killed 3 elk and a bear (not counting all the smaller game) all with complete pass throughs (broadhead was sticking out the other side) at 30 and 35 yards....my arrows have a 8grn knock weight....I added these knock weights to get an absolutely perfect arrow tune. I also discovered that when I went down to a 4" feather my arrow had a much flatter trajectory and better stabilization at 20 yards than a 5" feather....I bare shaft tune my arrows out to 25 yards....When your run to much FOC your bare shaft tune will take nose dives past 20 yards and you are defeating the whole kinetic energy purpose (your feathers will be taking up too much drag and slowing down your arrow to stabilize it) ....You need to balance out your arrow with a little more FOC but keep that arrow on a flatter trajectory/gradual decent to the target to better deliver that punch!...I took my first elk almost 20 years ago with a 45lb recurve and im guessing a 450 grn arrow setup right at 40 yards....all i knew, was that I was confident with all range shots and could usually always hit a paper plate at 40 yards then....Had it not been an absolutely perfect shot I dunno if I would have tagged that bull. Nobody talked to me about some of these ethical things (including that maybe I shouldn't have taken that lucky shot in the first place) because the knowledge wasn't their or talked about/emphasized....especially bare shaft tuning... everyone that I knew back then that hunted trad just did a paper tune at 5-7 yards and adjusted knock point amd brace height. Hence the reason mechanical broadheads became so popular back then.
Dan you are better off than me. I have a 25 inch draw length and currently pulling back 62lbs. This is my second year into archery hunting, have yet to get the chance to draw back on hog or whitetail. My current arrow setup is 424 grains and 15% FOC moving at around 232 fps. Given my circumstances what do you think about my arrow setup. I am shooting Magnus Black Hornet fixed blade broadheads. I also need to mention I hunt in Texas and most likely won’t shoot past 40 yards and hunt in a tree stand or ground blind.
Ashby's study was on live and dead game, starting on live African game in the 80's, through into live and dead Asiatic Buffalo in the 90's.
10 grains per pound is a good guide for arrow weight, a little more for larger thicker game. Slightly bigger arc but better momentum and penetrative carry
Huge respect for the guy that hunts with a recurve
Troy and Aron need to sit down and do a podcast. I guarantee they agree with each other more than Aron thinks. Troy always says shoot what makes sense to you, usually suggesting something around 550gn, and it's more of a plan for the worst hope for the best setup. Also go watch some of the tests he is doing with the hunting public recently. He is showing that the heavier arrow actually has a better trajectory at longer ranges, the pin gaps don't open up near as much and it is more consistent
Great show I listened to it a few times already! Ranch Fairy has been brought up a few times here and it seems that he is only known for his Lincoln Log setups and not anything else. One would need to listen to before giving a comment on his choice of setups. For example he made a video 12 minutes long 3 years ago about the perfect Elk arrow and it wasn't a 800 grainer, but 550 grains. He is a pig killer that loves to tinker. Great show guys!
Are these books out yet? I just got my first frame pack ever i actually won it at the pa tac steel rhino contest love it thanks cant wait for the books
So Aron's wife shoots a 425 grain arrow @ 49 pounds. For comparison's sake, let's assume a 70# bow shoots a 650 grain arrow. A 49# draw weight is 70% of a 70# draw weight and 425 grains is 65% of 650 grains, a difference of just 5%. The arrow weight to draw weight ratio between 49#/425 grains and 70#/650 grains is pretty darn close. "Heavy" is a relative term.
Troy follows Ashby's 12 penetration factors (of which arrow mass is #6) and spends loads of time and money to test all-things arrows and shares those results at no cost. We can take it or leave the information, so why instead choose to flame him and ignore the fact he is doing more work on the subject than most? Because of his personality? So you don't like the messenger, yet you spend hours on the facebook, instagram and youtube platforms, all of which censor content. Hypocrisy at it's best.
The guy has never told anyone to shoot an 800 grain arrow or any specific weight for that matter, nor has he suggested anyone "aim" for bone. What he has said repeatedly is to thoroughly test your setup. That's solid advice regardless of who is offering it.
This man is the real deal and has been doing it for a long damn time...all the hardcore ranch fairy cool aid drinkers who think they can take any shot now, at any distance with the animal quartered to, just because of the extreme arrow weight please just give this some thought and make sure you know your equipment and its limitations as well as yours. Whether you shoot a super heavy setup or not
He literally shoots the arrow weight that Troy suggests the most. I guarantee they agree on more than he thinks if he actually sat down and listened to him. Just look up the Ashby 12 penetration factors and you'll see that mass is way down the list and is heavily dependent on what you are hunting.
@@HickLif3 i hear you im just saying people in the woods have a false sense of confidence now, but everyone needs to shoot what works best for them, their setup, their ability and what they are trying to ethically kill. Thats all
Just like the crossbow manufacturers basically telling customers they can shoot 100+ yards at game
@@jasondenzer8971 yeah through brush and dense woods and all. Why not right? 🤦🏻♂️ the worst…even with my setup i still ideally want a shot 30 yards and in, in the northeast woods
I've done it with 85# XX78s & 125 Thunderhead. Yes, I would do it again 30 yards or closer. It's not about extreme arrow weight. Unless you call 500-550gr extreme? If you know mammalian anatomy, where to aim. & have faith in your abilities & equipment it's possible. Oh, IIRC- It's Kool Aid.
I watched a bit of this, and holy cow, for two reasons. First, Mr. Snyder has a wealth of knowledge about bow hunting. Hats off to him.
BUT
Second, just another misrepresentation of that "pig hunter in Texas". I use misrepresentation to be nice. Some have already pointed out a few non-truths. So, a few questions.
What kind of bow was used for the Natal Studies?
If 650 grains is the bone breaking threshold for a 1980's trad bow, what's the threshold for a modern compound bow?
Where is it stated that 650 grains is a must do? 800 grains?
The list of questions could go on.
Awesome video love the info and Kifaru amazing gear. I’ve been shooting day six arrows 150gr up front total weight is 506gr killed multiple elk with that set up only shooting 267fps but man it’s lethal. Keep this shit up awesome
2 of my favorite people to watch. Laying down the knowledge bombs.
Was just fun to be sitting in the room with all that hunting experience in there - TC
Ranch fairy says 500 grains to 550 … where did 800 come from ? Just curious
I’m guessing they’re talking a traditional bow arrow set up
My PSE shoots a FMJ at 475 gr. with a 250 spine...It goes 292-295 fps...I'm very happy 😊 with that set-up...
I shoot a 50 lb Black Widow bow with a 32"draw, I use Black Eagle Deep impact 400 spine arrows 56 gr outserts and 165 grain 2 blade broadheads going 180 fps. Arrow weight is 515 grains. They fly great. My buddy shoots the seven hundred grain arrow off his fifty pound bow with 27" draw, shooting into a virgin foam target, I get deeper Penetration by 2" at least
Maybe a dumb question but what are you meaning by zipping (cutting) threw too fast or quick? Isnt it still cutting the same way and same things no matte r how fast? Maybe im missing everything if so im sorry
You know what im an idiot man i was just so tuned in and focused that i was boggled for a sec. Went back n listed again lol thanks for all the amazing info
Very interesting video
"I sell hard work and dedication." That explains this channel in a nutshell. No frills, no bullshit. Straight and to the point, that is why I come to this channel. Great job fellas, and the content is seriously top notch in quality these days
my compound is 70lb at 29.5 and i shoot 630 grain. it was just how the numbers fell with the arrow build i did my target weight was 550. my recurve i am shooting 62lb at 29 with a 720g. i do like heavier arrows but there is a point of diminishing returns i think. i hunt black bear whitetail and occasionally elk. i know my sets are over doing it for what i hunt but next year i will be living in a new area and chasing moose for the first time. i dont believe i need to change a thing other then possibly moving back to feathers and away from the veins. i guess that extreme cold can be detrimental to some veins.
I made the swap from 682 grain arrows to 757 grain arrows to get better arrow flight out of my set up I practice 20 to 100 yds with the 757 grain set up with 18% foc and love it wish there was a way to share pictures here , last weekend I was shooting 90 yds walked up to 80 forgot to adjust my slider and smacked a quaking Aspen tree burried my heavy arrow 3 to 4 inches into the tree . The heavy arrow stuff is not for every one . But I'm also shooting 80lbs on a 29 inch draw . The 682 grain arrows I've got chronographed at 249 fps off my bow .
I find it really funny that Aron slags Ranch fairy, AND YET, is agreeing with 90% of what ranch fairy is saying. He makes some oversights as to what Ranch Fairy says , accounts for 5% percent. other 5% is valid argument.
Ranch fairy likes boys
Aron Snyder Basically just affirmed what That ranch Fairy dude speaks about. Aron is already shooting a great weight arrow for elk hunting. Elk Shape has formed his opinion wrongly about Ranch Fairy ( he can be abrasive I agree) but is letting his opinion miss the main points that change the frame of the subject being discussed. The recent testing about velocity degradation is eye opening for sure and more further reinforces Elk shapes reasoning for shooting a light arrow but his points should be pushing him to the heavy arrow not the light one.532 GR 17% FOC and its by far the best setup I have ever used.
Aron needs to get troy on his podcast. I guarantee they agree on more than he thinks
@@HickLif3 He has.
Probably one of the best conversations I've heard on hunting with bows yet. Thank you. I'm new to archery and the detailed explanation and experience given has really helped me understand more about the arrow and bow setup.
I agree totally with Aron's assessment of arrow builds and finding a happy medium. But, if anyone actually takes the time to fully read and understand Ashby, he never says that you need to absolutely shoot "x" weight arrows. His list is in order of importance what it he found it takes for penetration on heavily built animals. Arrow weight is not at the top. Structural integrity and arrow flight are the most important aspects of an arrow build. Ashby basically says the same thing as Aron is here. Ashby concluded that you should shoot as heavy of an arrow that still gives you an acceptable trajectory for YOUR purposes. A happy medium that emphasizes mass, slightly, when applicable. You do not need, and it would not be preferable to shoot, an 800 grain arrow with 35% FOC and a single bevel broadhead for something like dove or pheasant on the wing. Likewise, a 350 grain arrow with a flimsy 100 gr head would be less than Ideal for Cape Buffalo.
He found that 650 grains was the threshold for breaking bone on heavy animals. That does not directly transfer to deer size game, nor does it guarantee that an arrow is unstoppable. It was merely an observation, where within his test parameters, that he found a significant change in performance. Many people seem to only read the titles for Ashby's 12 rules but never dive any deeper into his publications.
Also, you have to remember that Ashby's studies were with 80+ pound Hill style longbows for the most part, and they have a mechanical speed limit due to the overall design. Therefore they do not have as much of a boost in velocity as a compound or even a recurve as you reduce the weight of the projectile. That works in the inverse direction too. So if you aren't seeing much of a velocity change why wouldn't you shoot the heavier, quieter arrow with much more momentum than the lighter arrow? So compounds and longbows aren't exactly apples and oranges, more like tangerines and oranges.
I like your 580gr setup
🔥🔥
When everyone talks about arrow weight, are they talking total weight with insert, broad head, nock, and vanes or are they talking arrow weight before completing the arrow?
total arrow weight, with all the things 👍👍
Fun stuff
The first entire interview I’ve watched with AS. Usually can’t handle him past the 5 minute mark. Great info and everything very accurate. Only disagreement is with bow noise. Modern compounds are as quiet or quieter than sticks. I kill plenty with both as do my clients. That said, after this vid I feel that I no longer need to stay broken up with Aaron. You’re on probation Aaron but this relationship may just work!
Great conversation but you where wrong about Dr.Ashby testing on dead animals. You also shouldn't bash the ranch fairy. He is the best thing to happen to bow hunting since Fred Bear. The guy is a freaking smart and is just showing the possibilities. Keep hating. More people in this country hunt the way he does than you do.
Who is Ranch Fairy and why do people keep saying his name?
You could probably type that exact question in the search bar on here and get all your questions answered.
@@MrBanolicious Lol, I know who he is. I like poking because his followers get butt hurt and it’s funny.
I stopped archery hunting after the arrow bounced off the deer. This was 15 years ago. Hopefully I'll be able to solve this problem.
Aron mentioned he would still shoot mechanicals at black bear. What is different with them that would warrant a mechanical?
Black bears are very soft skinned. Doesn't take much to puncture the hide.
Shot placement on a bear is further back and less chance of major bones in the way. The biggest issue I have seen with mechanicals is major bones mess their penetration up and eliminate their effectiveness. The best part of mechanicals is their effective blood channels, when no major bones are greeting them on the way in. A bear shot placement allows more center mass of body VS elk or deer etc...
I like my heavy arrows, my bow sounds better with them and I also get penetration. I mean I shoot a 672 grain arrow with a vpa 3 blade out of my Hoyt satori at 50 lbs. I have the benefit of a 32” draw length, but I also won’t have any problems hunting with this setup. I’d rather shoot slower, and know my setup is going through basically anything it hits.
The funniest part is the title "The TRUTH about arrows".
As an amateur ranch fairy watcher he is very clear that 550 is what he recommends which is what Aron sys he likes also. Just caught this video but I hope you did a follow up after doing some research
I would love to see snyder, ranch fairy and The hunting public do an episode together. It would be great content!
Anything Aaron Snyder is gonna get a like.
His snyder system is selling y'all $450 backpacks LOLOL
450 want buy one
Listen I agree very pricey. At the same time you obviously don't do 30-40+ mile hunts either. A good pack does help. I prefer Eberlestock(still expensive but not 450 expensive) myself as I was, until that past year, exclusively a rifle hunter.
@@dirtyharry2029 I'm not going to pack an elk 40miles for any reason. I hunt by myself, own a mystery ranch medcalf and 28, both with load carry than will carry a quarter. I Av a bull every 1 1/2 yrs with a bow and don't shot rag horns or it would be higher. Never hunt closer 1 1/2 miles to where a 4 wheeler can get but never over 4 miles from a pack out area, just saying.
@@dirtyharry2029 I looked at. Eberlstock makes a very Very good pack. But, I had a chance at a Badlands (brown, not camo) like 40% off & took it.
Do a video with ranch fairy.
Shooting a fletched bench press bar can get stuffed. The lob is insane and travels as slow as the mail
Y'all are bringing upTroy Fowler and Dr. Ashby. They don't preach straight 800 grain arrows. The first thing they preach is structural integrity, which is what your pushing with your glued together hit system and cut on contact. What they try to sell with super heavy arrows for are the super big, super tough animals.
I'm fine with my 465 gr arrows @13.42% FOC.
Killer set up.
At what FPS do you consider trajectory unacceptable?
Well... test your setups and figure out what you're comfortable with. This is a personal preference kind of thing... good luck.
@@derrickross192 I've only ever shot between 250-270 so I don't know any different, it seems all pretty similar. I guess I was curious what they consider "unacceptable" and worthy of going lighter on weight.
Glad to see some similar thinking with the “Happy Medium”. The happy medium led me to shooting 510 grains X-Impacts with ethics archery insert/outsert and 125 grain head leaving 12% FOC
I am guessing you are running FMJ's? Hard to be that light on FOC with a insert outsert and 125 heads.
@@ehhh11 X-Impacts
Excellent Video! Great Info!
Glad you enjoyed 🙏
Next you gotta try shooting a 650gr arrow out of a crossbow at 300fps :D
It’s disappointing to hear you guys bash Troy and Ashby when it sounds like all you’ve done is have someone tell you what they heard he says. Especially when you go on to say almost identical information.
Hes only trying to help the Marjory of use that only hunt whitetails from a tree stand . That shoot under 40. Have seen many on the hunting shows shooting high poundage.. that can't get pass threws on whitetails. Much less elk. Which most of use can't even afford to hunt
Agree but it's because they shoot huge mechanical heads that take a lot of energy to open. I shoot a fairly light arrow at just over 80 lbs of kinetic energy and I blow through everything whitetails using a moderate size head.
The microphone quality is scuffed
The only evidence I need to see is my target bow shoots a lot faster than my hunting bow but my target bow shoots 400 grain arrows and the arrows barely go in and my hunting bow with 600 grain arrows the arrows blow through the targets
The ranch fairy's newest video also shows that the heavier arrows maintain their velocity better and actually have a better, more consistent, trajectory because of it
@@HickLif3 Using Doppler Radar. (Science)
Aron's on the money
Sledge hammer or a toothpick 🤔 pretty simple
Easton axis long range. 135gr Iron will single bevel snyder core broadhead. 25gr collar total arrow weight 470gr. 273FPS
sweet rig!
@@ElkShape all thanks to you guys! Kept it under 500gr being a western hunter
I feel like the super heavy weight arrows and low 200’s speeds are like entering a cheat code for getting broadheads to “fly like field points”. Like Aron said it’s harder to tune as they get faster and they expose bad form a lot more.
Has Aron ever thought of interviewing Troy Fowler about his experience?
Dr Ashby gave a great interview about thr WHY of his conclusions this week on the MeatEater podcast. Worth a listen.
Who do you think they kept referring to this whole interview? No they wouldn't do that....
He did.
I’m shooting 750 grains at 248 FPS. Happy medium
Lol
The thing about trajectory is that trad archers are shooting elk out west with arrows that have what Dan and MFJJ call “bad trajectories”. It’s called being aware. Practising all summer without a range finder and getting close to the animal you are trying to kill. Speaking of hard work and discipline. You do the work. Your bow shouldn’t be there to make up for your lack of try. I still think that anything faster than 275 is still too fast. Guys were killing elk for decades with crappier speeds than anything on the market currently and had no issues.
Speed of sound is 767.27 MPH...Not 1100...If we're going to spit out #'s, let's at least be accurate...
Ashby has also did a test where a heavy arrow would lose less speed at longer distances than a lighter arrow. With heavy arrows, you can expect more penetration with little loss to its speed. Find a happy median, shoot an arrow faster than 250fps was my goal and im happy with my 20% foc at 516 gr
sounds like a sweet rig friend
Ranch fairy & co just did some recent testing ua-cam.com/video/ZCtp1SnPliY/v-deo.html + ua-cam.com/video/mj877sYO9lw/v-deo.html
Unfortunately smaller changes in speed doesn’t equate to a better trajectory.
@@Ridgerunner_802 a better trajectory does equate to losing penetration at longer distances compared to a heavier setup.
@@Bryan-vz4sz well aware, but it won’t do you much good if you end up missing because you misjudged by a yard with a heavy arrow
Lmao he roasted ranch fairy!
Has anyone shot the largest bone/ joint on an elk with an 800gr setup using a sharpened single bevel broadhead? What was your results? Has Aron done this? I haven't but I'd honestly like to know.
@elk shape have any of y'all done this yet? Has Aron done this?
Dr. Ashby says 650gr & Single Bevel is the threshold. But, he's a trad guy. There has been a Cape Buffalo study with Compounds & different single bevel heads. It's on The Ashby Foundation's website.
I’d love to see this guy debate the Ranch Fairy. He’d get destroyed. RF knows his shet.
So shoot heavy arrows with a high FOC....not Extreme FOC at 800 grains. Got it 👍. Aron just validated shooting a heavy high FOC arrow. You either haven't watched the Ranch Fairy or you don't understand what he's saying. You literally just agreed with what the Ranch Fairy says.
If they sat down and talked I guarantee they will agree on alot more than they will disagree
Well as the Rocket man told Troy "you know what your saying but you don't know what hell your taking about". That sounds like this entire conversation. I think I'll listen to the guys actual using science to figure out all out. The science isn't settled yet like Troy said. Troy is aiming at the vast majority of bow hunters that tree stand hunt and take shots at less then 30 yds. It's simple physics an object in motion tend to stay in motion unless meet with an equal and opposite force.
l feel like all I hear people talk about nowadays on UA-cam is Troy and Donald Trump. Lmao
The happy medium is 550 to 650
With a trad bow sure with a compound no way that's considered super heavy