@@chrisf.9595 probably not but the impact is lessened in the tower since the maps tend to be pretty small and you’re often not moving units their whole distance anyway. Honestly feel like a fully trained/invested Marshall might be better than Haar in the tower, as controversial as that might be lol
I feel Armor Knights have definitely improved over the years, they are generally more worthwhile units in recent games, especially in Conquest, where having a General can be a lifesaver in some situations
They've definitely done better with them lately. Effie is huge in early conquest, and Louis is really helpful in early engage too. Having good stats in games with strong enemies and either good movement tools or small maps is a big deal.
Definitely. Early game Engage on maddening is practically impossible without Louis And it goes both ways. Armors are legit terrifying if you don't have the tools to deal with them quickly in Engage
@@actuallizard Effie is huge in conquest as a whole. She was able to wall off the ninjas in ninja hell (ch17) and I was able to solo the kitsune map (ch19) with her. And if she’s accidentally left in range of a mage or armorslayer, wary fighter is gonna ensure she can’t get doubled
@@melon42301plus she makes an incredible kinshi through Mozu friendship. It makes her surprisingly good speed growth useable, keeps lances, and gives her 1-2 range control with lances + bows
I think even in games where early armours happen to be good units, its never because of their armour status, its because they can go into better classes with their statline. Effie can go fighter and do boatloads of damage, and Louis can go halberdier and double with pincer attack with his strong and bulky statline
I'd say the Pair Up system in Fates is pretty epic for Armour Knights cuz it allows them to have lots more offensive capabilities. Like using Pair Up to ferry them across the map (as mentioned in the video) and using Attack Stance's dual strikes as an alternative way to get kills without having to double. Someone like Effie or even a reclassed Arthur can be used offensively in some maps like CQ Ch.10 while still retaining those defensive qualities for maps like Ch.17. It's quite a refreshing take on the Armour Knight that improves their flexibility between maps and I hope that that dynamic could return.
Also when an armor unit is paired up as the "backup unit" they provide a great amount of bulk to the main unit as well. About 4-5 def. So they'll make great use of the deployment slots even if your strategy doesn't revolve around them by making your other units stronger.
a big downside of both fates and awakening pair up was that it felt really strange to play the game when the AI never pair ups, in awakening they couldn't and in fates they would only pair up if they spawned that way, it would have been great if ai on fates was able to effectively use the pair up system and in future games if the mechanic returns as well
@@vitortakara7090 That would be absolutely terrifying but also kinda fun. And as for the pre-spawed paired-up in Fates it can already get pretty scary when it's two General with Weary Figther or two Swordmasters.
I definitely feel that we're getting better with Armor's implementation. Fates, 3H and Engage have all made at least a few characters in the class genuinely viable at certain points in the game on higher difficulties, so I'm decently happy with where they are.
I agree, but also like to mention how much Edelgard showed good design of objectives and maps can help different classes and play styles to feel impactful. As we saw in 3H, not designing maps with considerations can make even the strongest and most focused on armor knights feel disappointing, even if they have access to one of the most overpowered tools in the game.
I felt at points armor was a NECESSITY in engage hardmode because one bad hit and your broken unit can easily just crumble or severely mess up your following turn
I wonder if just making the games more difficult also help making armor knights more relevant by simply requiring them at times to hold chokepoints until it's safe for the rest of your army to advance.
@@kambyznn149 But nobody keeps Edelgard as an armor class in 3H. They just use her as wyvern. Thus she's not really a good example of a good armor when 98% of the player base won't use her signature armored classes.
Something you didn't mention about Effie is her insane base 50 spd growth. With a little luck, I would even have _her_ start doubling some of the slower enemies.
Can confirm. In my first Conquest playthrough my Effie hit about 30 Speed with Tonics and Food Bonuses. There are a LOT of situations where Effie doubling is a damn Godsend, the most immediate example I can think of is Takumi's wall defense chapter where being able to draw out the Lancers without dying and no selling the Archers was pivotal in giving the rest of my team any approach at all.
I think how important the movement penalty is really depends on the game. Games like 3H have extreme speed bonuses that functionally negate the issue Armors have, whereas Fates and Awakening have Pairing up as a core fundamental of ferrying Knights. Some games could probably benefit from 5 mov over 4 mov Knights. Also, Soldiers would still retain their identities against Knights, as Knights could be considered to be soldiers with extremes, with high bulk and decent to high power in exchange for poorer speed and res. Even without the move penalty in those games, statistically and skill wise Generals play very different from Spear Masters.
Gilliam may be slow but I always found his character design and armor color scheme way too cool to ever bench as a kid. Even now I can't help but use him even if it takes a while lol
Gilliam also helps a lot with growing Amelia, and its so cool seeing Gilliam and Amelia create a choke hold together or double down on a difficult enemy that could kill my squishy-er characters.
In my first play through of fe7 I must’ve gotten incredibly lucky with levelups on my oswin because at the end of the game he wasn’t just fast for an armor knight he was just fast. He consistently doubled most enemy units, was near invincible due to his massive defense, was able to retaliate and 1 round most enemy units due to his high attack, and after giving him some boots was easily able too keep up with the team and stay on the front lines. He was by far my best unit while playing the game.
FE7 enemies have really low speed overall. You don't need to be that lucky to get enough speed to double with him, just a couple of lucky level ups are usually enough. I would say that Armor Knights are at a better place in this game compared to Myrmidons for example because of that.
As someone who just got into fire emblem last year, I feel the armour knight is a class that just gives a feeling of safety for new players. I remember playing fire emblem awakening for the first time, when Kellam joined my army, I just felt safe. Just able to let him tanking all the give me a sense of safety, although sometime thst can be a false sense of security when a mage shows up😂, but still the idea is there. Also map where enemies reinforcement shows up behind and just started to rush your army, having a few armoured knight or 1 general to cover your flank just to make it safer, atleast for me.
One idea I had was to allow them to boost the defense of units around them, or protect them in some way. In my mind, armor knights are supposed to be shields, valiantly defending their allies from any (non-magical) harm. It would make sense if they could somehow protect adjacent units, either with a flat out +2 or 3 to defense, or something else. Additionally, positional skills like swap and pivot are a good idea for knights as well!
Prody do exaxtly that in Vestaria saga, and has paragon and good bases on top of that. He is still a low tier unit because when the maps are large enought 4 mov js a death sentence no matter what.
@@blazerthewyvernwriter don't design every single map around crossing an huge distance. Low mov units are dramatically better in games with small maps. Ironically even FEH is an example.
That would be way too much in a single target game and even comes with some exploits in general such as placing them on a corner tile of an enemy so the enemy's counter get reduced damage. They are a tank and giving the ability to tank to others while being able to avoid magic doesn't work well in a single target tile game. They would be so oppressive defensively that you'd have to make maps designed with the intent to invalidate them.
Another idea how Armor Knights could be buffed is by establishing Zones of Control. Basically the Armor Knight "blocks" tiles adjacent to him, requiring units to need additional move to get through these tiles. It would emphasize both Armors job of protecting allies and their role as the wall on open maps as well.
Luie is awesome. Oneshots problematic targets, solos earlygame, has move to keep up with the army and great knight puts him as fast or faster than other units.
Effie being able to carry maps like kitsune's/ninja cave and one-rounding late game stoneborns is so ridiculous. Armors feel so weak in the newer releases whenever i remember what Benny and Effie could do.
Obviously General Wolf and Sedgar are the most notorious fe11 generals, but there are many units who I love making armors in that game. most recently I did a harebrained Hunter->General Caesar and jt was so fun! he was doubling and not taking damage and doing that with Caesar felt so good. Darros also, hilariously, gets 0 spd base and growth as General but sky high hp and def to truly minmax. there are also just plenty of units that make goofy but fun armors, like Bord, Castor, and Gordin. underrated for sure
I think Oswin and Gatrie did it right in Blazing Blade and Path of Radiance respectively: They have low speed and movement, but high enough level and other stats to compensate. Leveling them up and promoting them to General isn’t nearly as much of a chore as most other Armor Knights, and I’m pretty sure that’s why.
I like your solution of just buffing the stats. In a franchise where movement is so important, sacrificing it should come with some major power bonuses as a trade; and often it just.... doesn't for armor knights. They should feel like Hector in FE7: If someone is engaging them, they're either 1) A magic-user 2) Making a mistake Actually getting them into battle should be the hardest part of using one. Getting crit or doubled doesn't matter when you're not taking damage, so you would just have to keep an archer buzzing around them to pick off mages. Teamwork makes the dream work. Of course, having maps made specifically to give armor knights something to do is nice, but I bet it limits creativity quite a bit to always have to stop and ask "This is great, but what are the armor knights gonna do?". Alternatively, FE typically has the player attacking into enemies or on a time limit, so a few more defense maps would never hurt variety. As a third solution, I'd invoke a taunt ability. I haven't played all the newer games in the franchise, so maybe this is already a thing, but having an ability to force nearby units to attack the armor knight would open up a lot more strategies; both defensive and aggressive. This way, having your armor knight lag behind with the backline units wouldn't be a problem, but a feature. The cleric's best friend.
The problem with general amelia is that she doesnt wear any leg armor, what is the point of slowing yourself down with heavy chest armor if you still die from getting hit in the knees?
Are you referring to Amelia in heroes? They probably want to justify giving her 35 spd for an armored unit Or they just want to put recruit design, also her damaged art is probably a reference to her recruit animation
IRL legs are the least important part to armor. Because its very easy to guard your legs. Just be a competent fighter and your legs will never be open to hit.
I see no one bitching and whining about this when it's men showing skin, including men running around fully armored except no breastplate at all. Even Guts in Berserk throughout much of the Manga and Anime didn't wear any armor on his arms, and considering you're wielding your weapon with your arms you present them to the enemy more than your legs which makes them more vulnerable. But people only notice and complain about these things when it's women... It's annoying as hell
I know that in FE 12 New Mystery of the Emblem, the prologue maps are small enough for your MU Knight to get around the maps rather efficiently. It’s been my preferred class choice when playing Lunatic or Lunatic Reverse. Plus Arron gets to go General for the first 3-4 chapters pending on how often you’ll need him to take a hit.
I think Dedue from Fire Emblem 3 Houses has one of the coolest designs for an armor knight. His personal skill increases his defense by 4 if he waits which will be extremely valuable on early maps when attacks are hitting for 10 or so damage but as you progress through the game and attacks start hitting for 30, you won't be able to rely on that. Instead, he can learn the combat art Vengeance which will increase attack based on HP lost and allow him to get some kills that other armor classes would struggle with.
I gave 1 of the movement boost items to Panette in Engage and turned her into a general. She became a nearly invincible blender and didn't really have issues keeping up due to the map design being what it is in engage.
Armor Knights are my favorite class in the game, I grew up falling in love with Oswin and thought Wallace's promotion into a General was the coolest shit ever as a kid (even if he is terrible). My only major beef is that I feel like Armors constantly just fall off into the late-game for reasons you stated, but also because there are *so many damn casters*. Sometimes I wonder if giving Generals an innate Endure ability would help, as it would still allow them to perform their primary role of baiting out enemies or locking down chokepoints, but without the risk of just getting immediately killed by a strong caster that doubles. Another alternative was giving them a skill that gives them Res based off of half or one-third of their Defense, though that is probably arguably too strong.
Armour knights are always either the best or worst unit in any engagement. They either tank infinite amounts of damage, or get one shot because you forgot to check the map for hammers.
I loved playing with Effie and Benny on conquest, they were almost always on the team. Being able to carry armored around with pair up system also helps a lot, pair up with a paladin, the paladin passes to a not moved yet character and in the end, just swap and done, armored positioned much more distant than 4 tiles. In the end, I changed Effie to master of arms for fun and she became a war tank.
The smash weapons in engage are a huge boon to armors. I think generals should've had armored blow (in that game it gives +10) which would further work with those weapons. I also think Generals should be give staves. Being able to use an obstruct to help funnel enemies to them and reward to help keep up or dive bomb a pack of swordsman would be so much fun. Also a pair of them on the front lines to keep each other healthy. Sounds like a good time
I loved using armors when I first started playing cause every character felt so fragile. These days I rarely use them since the lower movement just feels awkward to me, even if it’s usually only one move less than the infantry. The last time I used an armor all the way to the endgame was on a conquest run. I was using Effie and she was SERIOUSLY speed screwed, like 1-2 points over her base speed after 12 levels. I was considering dropping her but I decided to hold out until wary fighter. I loved using her as a backpack for Xander, that pairing carried me through the ninja cave. As a general she sauced all over the kitsune village since they couldn’t damage her and she OHKOd all of them with the beast killer, and there she was able to learn wary fighter. I reclassed her to great knight and from there she was popping off, able to survive a round with any enemy and deal back massive damage, the occasional Luna proc also helped with one shots. She and Xander were quite the power couple, and I got a pretty swole siegbert out of it too
A lot of armors that are good are definitely good in SPITE of being an armor, not because of it, and of course a big problem is that armor knights, more than literally any other class in the series, are heavily dependent on map design to be considered favorable picks A map that's even slightly too open, or a game with slightly too weak enemies, results in the major advantages of armors evaporating and thus, they become annoying to use with little payoff because of it I think as well that one thing not touched on is that owing to the relative simplicity of FE's basic combat mechanics, there's not many ways to go about a hyper tanky unit that doesn't incentivize just using another unit who is maybe not AS tanky but is more mobile. Add on to the fact that armor knights are so extreme in their stat lines, and you end up with a lopsided class that struggles unless its extremes are actually required. One notable thing though that I think could help make armors interesting, and you brought it up yourself: giving them inherently better stats than your other allies, but specifically, do it in such a way that you unlock something that's not actually particularly common in FE: oneshotting potential. And EARLY oneshot potential at that. There's the classic tradition of the Jagen, who at least partially tends to bank on their higher weapon ranks alongside overall better stat line to provide a solid anchor for your early units to train up, but I think that armor knights, when given sufficiently high base weapon ranks, can fill this role in quite well too, and arguably better than the Jagen might. TL;DR: Give the Armor Knight a high enough weapon rank to use high power weaponry in much the same way you might give an early Paladin or similar a silver lance or sword to use.
Note that this primarily covers early game Armor Knights, but for Knights joining midgame or lategame Generals, here's a bit of a controversial pick: Introduce the Save set of skills (maybe brand them as, say, Savior) from Fire Emblem Heroes, which essentially allow an armor knight to quite literally STEP IN for another combat unit when an enemy attacks them on enemy phase. Alternatively, giving Generals something like Provoke could accomplish something similar. TL;DR: Give armor knights something that forces enemies to interact with THEM over one of your other units.
Shining Force's equivalent has an interesting solution; Guntz compensates for his low move by being good when it comes to terrain. On mountains specifically he's the only non-flier who isn't slowed. (Well, I assume Adam isn't either, but there's only one outdoor map left after he joins and he's going to be extremely underleveled for it)
I’ve been playing through path of radiance on my CRT for the first time in my entire life and have absolutely loved my armor knight Brom. I gave him the Vantage perk and having him bait attacks AND always hitting first has me outright devious with my plays
Shadows of Valencia made armors "balanced" on highs and lows. Random encounters were perfect size and quick. Stats were ok, but the teleporting witches would obliterate them
I honestly really love the Knight/General class because how how much hits they can take from physical attacks even dealing heavy damage back. While yes they are slow and are weak to magic attacks it atleast makes them good enough for when surrounded by physical units where as for magical units you rather avoid them as much as possible unless you can somehow 1 round them but that is highly unlikely to happen.
Disgaea has an interesting approach to armor units. Some of the same issues apply, but all units can have their mobility enhanced through Lift & Throw, and armors specifically happen to be the best generic units for throwing in most games they're in. So not only are armors not really slowing the army down, they're in fact usually making the army FASTER because of their contribution in aggressive extensions and repositioning. Slower monsters can run into similar issues, and can't throw to speed up the army, but this tends to be counteracted by how absurdly strong a lot of such monsters are, and the fact that they can still at least be thrown. They're often among the only units that can take multiple attacks per turn, so throwing them to the front makes sense.
I'd probably explore the concept of giving them more support-oriented options. I think being able to do something like "nearby units take reduced damage" or "enemies will prioritize the armor unit" or "enemies cannot pass through the tiles adjacent to the armor knight's position" as either combat arts or class skills would probably do nicely for armor knight units while still sticking to the general theme of the class.
NGL the first thing I did when I started making a Sacred Stones ROM was to install the Skill System patch to give Gilliam Drive Defense as his personal skill so he is useful even if he's lagging behind, because +4 Defense to all your allies within two squares helps the rest of the army enough that I want him to baby my investment projects while being one himself. (Now I have to mention that he is a poor investment target because his growths are bad... 😢)
I think fe gaiden/echoes got the armor knights right. Give them hight hp, str, def, and skill/dex rates, and low rates on the other stats. They're supposed to give the player good positioning by creating walls to prevent your less defensive units from being ganged up on, while also softening the enemies to finish them in player phase. Usually in the hard difficulties you get to see armored knights shine because you actually have to strategize. In normal difficulty, paladins usually eclipse them in positioning, spacing, and speed
Wow, thanks for making an analysis that takes into account the unique identity of armor knights and how they can fit into different play-styles. I agree that just giving them regular movement capabilities would miss the point. A lot of the hardcore (and vocal) FE community focuses on LTC, where 'efficiency' is the most prized virtue and high-movement units are king, so thanks also for considering other playstyles that value other aspects of the game. I think that Fire Emblem is like Pokemon, in that every unit is someone's favorite, and they will try to use them and make them a part of their playthrough.
Path of Radiance actually did armors quite well IMO. The biggest thing is that everyone has +1 movement, so the gap between them and other infantry doesn't feel as bad. Most of the maps aren't even that big, and the ones that are still give them lots to do with reinforcement positions. Gatrie is a fantastic early game unit who can still hold his own later on. Brom has a tougher time early, but he scales quite well and has more room to grow with the knight ward. Tauroneo is a very well balanced pre-promote who can actually take a couple magic hits, giving him a solid niche over the others. Cavalry still reigns supreme in PoR, but the armors can hold their own quite well.
One thing I didn't hear you mention is that *new* players are among those that are going to be playing slow and not "efficiently". I think armors, even in their current state, make the game more approachable for new players. One thing that might be neat I have is based on a personal skill in engage that gives a bonus based on weapon rank of the enemy; maybe give armors an innate skill that boosts defense based on the rank of the weapon the enemy is using. This makes their defenses better against stronger enemies while not immediately making them immune to weaker enemies, and makes their defenses better in harder modes (where enemies will have higher rank weapons) without having to just outright buff their stats for hard mode.
My most played Fire Emblem by far is 7 and I played a ton of Link Arena in that, it was back in high school and we had a group of 4-5 people who just constantly replayed the game training new and stronger units/teams for the link arena Generals(Oswin, Wallace) always performed extremely well here with high stat caps and ability to use 2 different weapons including Vaida's spear you could get from using the glitch with the mine, Oswin in particular had really good support options too I was shocked years later to learn that the narrative is that Paladin+Fliers are the kings of the game cause low con and low stat caps always caused us to avoid them lol
One thing FE can do is make the Jeigan a General that doesn't double but is powerful in all other stats. Low movement is not an issue at first because the maps are smaller and have choke points. Also, a good Jeigan is one that phases out around halfway and the low move would do that.
I think they should be impeded by less terrain. Which is a change they have been going through in recent games. But I think the biggest change that would fix them would be nerfing fliers by 1 move; flyers are always going to be good. They keep getting better and have only one weakness, bows, but are also ideal for flying over and picking off lone archers. Heck, a lot of fliers in recent games are evasive enough to dodge bows reliably, so you can actually leave them surrounded by archers and they'll be ok 9 times out of 10. I love fliers as much as the next guy, but they will only be marginally worse with one less move. They already ignore all terrain, including walls. They will still be able to move so much more than other units, but not so much that all non-fliers and especially armors get left in the dust. It's good to plan situations that will be good for each unit type, but the movement disparity is really bad, not just for armors. It should be a difference of a couple turns, not the 10+ you might go through if you want an armor to finish off the boss. The next thing is just include more boots than usual so players can still make their nerfed-fliers completely broken or build a marathon runner armor. The boots are very good for strategic gameplay. There should be more, but not so many half your army can zoom around the map each turn unless they are just super expensive and buyable.
You know, favoring fliers less is an unintuitive way to boost slow classes, but I think you might be right. I feel the series has undergone something of a 'movement power creep' over the years. The stacking movement boosts of third-tier cavalry and flying classes in 3H gave them enormous mobility. When combined with that game's other tools like Stride, dancing, and Warp, the results were just nuts. I remember seeing that Hapi, a magic-user on a horse with 8 movement, got a skill that increased her attack range, and thinking, 'that's just unnecessary; give that skill to an infantry class instead.' When using Mire her range was just about the whole damn map.
I like Three Houses system as solution to the problem - if a character can become an armored knight he/she can also become a brigand allowing to switch between classes depending on the map for that extra bit of movement while in the end allowing to even move into a heavy cavalry class.
@@l.n.3372 I see it differently - until Great Knight I basically swapped my axe units depending on the mission, bigger maps got brigands while smaller or more defensive maps got armor so I could set up n enemy turn that didn't need healing every turn.
@@mareczek00713 But that's not a solution. That's basically a band aid saying "yeah this class sucks on maps. I won't use it anymore here." A solution would be, for example, like what Fates attempted. New skills (wary fighter) to prevent doubling. That way low speed armor isn't too bad since the opponent can't double either. FEH went a different route. Smaller maps cuz mobile game. Armors were broken for a long time cuz higher BST.
@@l.n.3372 And pegasus riders suffer on archer maps, and cavalry suffers if we give enemies horse slayers. As I said - the class is fine, it has its purpose, the game just needs map design incentivising usage of different classes.
@@mareczek00713 Not really. If you've played FE games in the past, you would never bench you flying units even on maps with archers. Their movement is usually too valuable. In GBA games, they can also carry your infantry units too, giving them extra utility. Some games give shields that grand immunity to archers. FE3H made a skill that grants avoid if you wait on player phase. Fliers in FE are absolutely broken and nobody benches them. The way to make a class better is not "hmm let's bench them." That just proves they're bad. If you're benching armors, you're acknowledging they're bad. And that doesn't fix the issue.
I think for me oswain, was just easily my favorite armor knight and he became more or less my go to dude to send in for being the beef cake I needed to bait and protect my squishy units. Since I loved using archers a lot. Yeah I am that slow guy ,but there is something fun about giving your enemies the same treatment when they swarm you
I love playing armor strategies,it really makes me feel like im commanding an army and it feels super good to be an invincible group of people that works all together beating up those bad guys and the slow movement actually makes it feel a little bit more powerful as if my enemies should fear my march.
Personally I'm a slower-pace player, and what do you know, I love my big bulky Armors. A lot, Arden probably being one of my favorite characters overall even. As said, they're there to to their job and act as a bait and weaken the enemies while tanking their hits so your fragile glass-cannons can finis 'em off easy and get EXP to then in order do their job. And also grant some EXP for the healer(s) as well while on top of it. And much like you said, I feel like the simple solution of just giving 'em better stats would be all they really need, honestly. God knows why but oon my latest Engage run I ended up making Lady Anna a General... Probably for *** and giggles more than anything really. But the thing is while she doesn't necessarily transcend the armor class she makes it work surprisingly well. She has enough speed to reliably avoid getting doubled or in some cases even being able to double herself, or she can get a lucky dodge at times as well thanks to it. Not to mention it helps her actually hit something as well. But also, due her dex being pretty high she can also crit her foes reliably - even without equipping killer weapons - and at times this has resulted in her getting a much needed kill in retaliation. Not to mention (although this only more or less works for her really) she can also make use of that fairly early Hurricane Axe you get, which only adds to her capabilities o act as a wall that also breaks walls. For a something born out of a joke she sure - true to her character - made sure that I still got my investments worth though.
Some aspects I think really can be played with: • Grazing effects, as in environmental or magical chip effects. Let armor characters be straight up immune to these additions • While they have generally superior stats, they can have a greater role when it goes to controlling chokepoints for survive or protect based objectives. Damage prevention and the Obstruct ability emphasized can make armor feel meaningful. • Utility and support! If not Obstruct, let them increase defense for adjacent characters • Yeah smaller maps helps a lot. I loved them in Fire Emblem Heroes back when I was playing.
I feel you went a little light on wolf and sedgar. they straight up break the game. They can basically solo everything and can and will tank hammers and magic attacks through shear bulk. there is only a handful of maps they can't solo, and these are either not major problems or are generally warp skipped regardless. They are horrible in the OP department.
We got example of armored knight with move tho. It is called black knight. Joke aside as you said take, repositioning skill and pair could mitigate its movement issue.
Armor Knights/Generals should be your Boss Killer unit. And your Boss; They are your best/most reliable unit when it comes to combat. They should have the best combat stats AND the most weapon options. Because they are Generals, Masters of War. This means they have the highest maximum Attack/Skill/Speed/Defense/HP stats. (Only being tied in specific stats against Specialist Classes. Like the Swordmaster and the Berserker). The Armor Knight/General should be beating OR, at least, rivaling every physical Class. If even in level no one alone should be able to beat them in combat. Unless, The Armor Knight/General is specifically being itemized against. Basically, to defeat them it should require Armor-Slaying Weapons, Weapon-Type Advantage, Ranged Attacks, and/or Coordinated Attacks from multiple units. If an Armor Knight/General manages to get into a fight with someone, their opponent should lose. Because the Armor Knight/General is the combat expert. And not just with any one weapon, but combat in general. Because of their Disciplined Training, Versatile Weaponry, and Superior Equipment. And because they are sacrificing everything, just so that they can be the best at fighting.
Knights tend to be at their best when they have more going for them beyond their statline or at least having a reasonable compromise. Being naturally unbreakable in Engage is absolutely huge given how dangerous enemies can be, the robust skill system of fates/awakening letting them compensate for their innate weaknesses/hit harder/tank better/ do whatever you need them to do (wary fighter is honestly under appreciated) the pair up systems let them work around their low movement and still provide some excellent buffs in back up. We're still a long way away from the unga bunga that is knights in Tactics Ogre or Final Fantasy Tactics sure, but at least the future is looking bright for the units once stuck on "castle defense".
I really enjoy how Armor Knights felt in Engage. not having the movement deficit kick in till general gave them a really good gamefeel, and Louis had the DEF to really make tanking work even on harder difficulties. one of the things that really frustrates me about GBA era Armors is how many weakness they have outside of speed. Their low RES and LUCK means that they're at constant risk of low % criticals and mage one-rounds, and often times the archetype gives them shaky hit rates, meaning that their ONE attack per turn has a decent chance of whiffing. it makes them downright unplayable
i actually love using sedgar in shadow dragon, everything is op in shadow dragon, the wingspear is op, forging is op, sedgar is op, ballistas are op, shadow dragon is the most fun FE game to me to play, there are so many things to experiment with. also the first few maps on merciless 5 or whatever its called are brutal, so i think its fair to have some fun after that.
Having bad movement is what sells Armors for me. It is part of their identity and not everything needs to be meta. I love Arden and characters like Effie and Oswin are indeed amazing. It ultimately ends up on the situation of the game (maps, objectives and enemies) and tools they have. Like with every other unit.
I've only played a bit of three houses yet, but there is a bit of fun to using a gambit to make the armour knight faster and teleport it across the battlefield as well. Efficient? probably not. But is it funny to catapult the slowest unit across the board? yes.
I agree with your take that stats are mostly the way to 'fix' armor knights. If the purpose of them is to be basically physical walls limited by movement, they need to *be* physical walls! Echoes shows this in its class balance; it's super hard for any non-mage to deal with an armored unit. And in Engage on Hard at least, Louie famously just soaks up all physical assault aimed at him. Actually, one thing I do want to highlight about Engage's armored units is not only do they have the break resistance, but also the Greatlances and similar 'heavy' weapons exist. It doesn't limit Louie at all to carry around a silver greatlance with ike's "+3 mt +15 wt" crest when he was going to be doubled anyway, but the existance of these super high power weapons that most characters would choose not to wield is a perfect match for a Knight's statistical profile.
I love having one dedicated armor knight per playthrough regardless of the game/difficulty. At lower difficulties they are practically immune to damage, allowing for a reliable source of enemy phasing damage/kills, and even on higher difficulties it allows extra strategies of being a road block for enemies. While I do think they tend to run out of usefulness at higher difficulties/later in the game, they are really fun to play with.
Honestly i think the 5 move aspect of armors is pretty easy to maintain and balance around over wary fighter, not only can you just not give them move on promotion if they become too centralizing which has happened in the series before, but they also suffer the most out of any class movement wise when considering terrain movement as well, which combined with low speed is pretty bad for even min maxed units, Hector has base 5 move and isnt too centralizing while also being fun to use which i think is a good base to go off of. I think wary fighter becomes alot more of an issue due to the fact enemy armored units cant be doubled which even with strong magic and effective damage makes them alot more annoying to deal with, and also makes faster physical enemies pretty obselete if armors just remove their niche. But regardless love the unique style of fe content
Honestly I will always come to the defense of armored knights, but you make fairly good points. They’re cool in 3H though: if you take the time to master War Master, they become an amazing enemy phase unit, where they don’t really take damage and thus always double on the counter due to Quick Riposte always triggering. Use Lysithea, Linhardt, Manuela or Hapi to warp them into a choke point or rescue them with Bernadetta, Flayn or Constance if they fall behind too much, and you’re golden.
I like your train of thought. I think armor knights are a fine class, but they are not well represented in terms of the characters of that class. Thinking about some of the armor knights that I am most familiar with (Wendy, Barthe, Bors, Oswin, Gilliam, and Amelia), most of them just have bad stats. Like, I wouldn’t use Barthe or Wendy if they were Mercenaries instead. Heck, I probably wouldn’t use them even if they were Cavaliers! Oswin and Gilliam get by because their personal bases are so dang high. Most of the other armor knight representatives in the series leave a bad impression of the class to their own incompetency as a character, not because of the class they are in.
Yeah I just started playing Fire Emblem a few months ago, with FE7 being my first entry into the series. I ended up taking Oswin all the way to the end of the game. The fact that every other map or so, they would spawn reinforcements to attack Merlinus's camp made me feel better about leaving him behind to guard, because he was basically a one man army. He's the only reason I managed to kill Ursula, as I had to face tank her Bolting attacks with him because otherwise she would just one shot anyone else on my roster. After his promotion to general, he managed to double many enemies, and just one or two shot them, taking hardly any damage in return. So Oswin will definitely always hold a place in my heart.
This might be a weird take, but if we're gonna go with class identity, I like to consider knights as tanks that can level light terrain obstacles just by walking over them. However, their heavy armor will weigh them down in certain terrain like sand. So if anything, maybe an armor buff would be that their movement is not affected by terrain such as brushes and forests, but get very punished by desert terrain like how the Solm quicksand works.
Something I really enjoy about hacks is how they try to fix this issue in different ways. Order of the Crimson Arm had one of my favorite solutions: it gave them bows! Armors being able to attack enemies without having to move toward them helps mitigate some of the movement issue, and gives them the ability to choke points at all stages of the game without unequipping entirely. Archers in that game are so strong that they can frequently one-round units, so it doesnt step into their design space too hard, and it means Javelins can keep their downsides.
I'd say keeping their move values close enough is important Armour 4, Foot 5 Cav 6 (all +1 on promotion) is OK, Armnour 4 ,foot 5 fast foot 6, cav 7, Light cav and fliers 8 (with some units getting more than +1 on promotion) is too harsh a penalty however no unit should be twice the movespeed of another without terrain or items involved. Good additional mitigation (immune to double, chance invul tank, etc) also helps keep them relevant.
I think a cool buff they could give to armor knights would be supporting adjacent units. They could added defenses to adjacent allies or like have a % chance to block damage for allies (like Lucina's emblem ring bonded shield). I think pivoting to supportive utility would help to keep their identity as a defensive unit without also making them goated at combat. There's a srpg game called dark deity and their armor knights give adjacent allies defence.
I haven't played a ton of FE in general, but overall, I just love the concept of a nigh-impenetrable warrior marching towards the enemy forces, or being the one thing standing between weakened units/civilians, and an endless swarm
I think the Wary Fighter skill was one of the best things to happen to armor knights. Giving them that by default, or some other unique ability, would let them have utility without busting their stats. Maybe something like the Rampart skill from the knights of Tactics Ogre LUCT?
I REALLY love armour knights, they're my favourite unit type, and I make space for one in every game, they're like, bottom tier units 70% of the time and the rest they're okay/good but that won't stop me from using them just because I feel like it My favourite character from FE ever is Bors and a promoted Arden was right up there in the front lines with the cavaliers (After turn stalling for me to get him there I'm not insane enough to give him the leg ring)
I think the one novelty of making Amelia a General in Sacred Stones is that since she has an actual speed growth and General Promotion bonuses are pretty crazy she can end up being an armor knight whom not only can't be doubled but can sometimes or even often double the opponent's instead. It's still not optimal but I admit it is fun that this is a perfect example of armor knights having at least decent speed can help them perform a lot better then if they didn't have said Speed. (Yes, Wary Fighter exists in most modern games to mitigate the issue of them being doubled but I think that shouldn't be an "excuse" to make them never have Speed)
Also the obligatory comment that you should have more defense mission. No one really cares about low move If you just have to walk eight squares to block a gate
I wish armored knights had some unique mechanic like mounted units have cantor. Something like defend, where he can select an adjacent ally so he can defend the first hit on enemy phase coming to them, or they unique having the defend gauge from fates and being able to defend the adjacent ally when it was full. Also, you might have forgotten to say (or i havent payed enough attention) that fates armored units had an advantage in movement towards the previous games that is the pair up mechanic, where they could reach further places easily. If fe4 had that, it would be a huge boost for infantry and armored units for sure.
Bors might be the best armour in the series. If you give him the pursuit ring and max out his movement with boots from the secret shop (which he can purchase if you are willing to warp him there) then he is able to one round Idun using an Armads Triangle Attack.
One idea I had for buffing Armor Knights was giving them an extra Move. Not giving them another point of Move, letting them Move *twice*, at the cost of their action. It's potentially problematic, but I'm approaching this with a lot more experience in, like, TTRPG spaces where that sort of idea is a lot more common.
No mention of Lukas and Forsythe is odd, I think they're some of the most effective armour knights in the series both from a casual and efficient context. They do simply have much higher stats than other units, which is the main reason why they're good, but another reason is Gaiden/Echoes' speed thresholds being so wide. Most units may double them, sure, but there are also a healthy amount of enemies that they can double too, like arcanists, or zombies. Arcanists in particular are something Armour knights excel at killing, their speed is just high enough to double, and they have enough strength to 2 shot them with a good lance. Echoes in particular also does something great for them, in dungeon crawling mechanics. A huge part of why Armour Knights feel unintuitive to use is because they're front liners who can't reach the front line. If you simply hit an enemy in the dungeon, you and your armour knights will already be within attack distance of them. This subtle change makes it so much easier to get them combat and by extension exp.
I also like the ones where the lower movement is more of a skill tax. I always give Kellem move +1 and putting Siguard's ring on a heavy in Engage is just win.
I think engage did armor well by just making Louis a very strong unit. He basically cannot die unless there's mages or 4-5 backup units swarming him with chain attacks. And unbreakable made him great for enemy phase. Plus, the option to fix his move with the sigurd ring is good fun.
Armor Knights have seperate problems throughout the game. Early Game: As tanks they are hopelessly outclassed by Jagens. Unless they are the Jagen. While they have enough defense to usually take no damage, Jagens do the same but with more movement, utility and offense. Early FE is also usually dominated by axe users. Making their 3 extra points of defense be for naught (they take 1 extra damage, while your cavs and sword lord takes 1 less). Mid Game: They compete with Cavaliers for Knights Seals. Cavaliers are the obvious pick every single time. And thus I go with paladin every single time. This results in a Roy situation where they spend most of their time unpromoted. End Game: Scaling is not their friend. Strength scales faster than Defense does in most games. Combine that with better weaponry and the defense stat gets less impactful as the game progresses. Combine that with their low speed and they end up taking more damage and being more fragile than anyone who isnt the Magical Girl (Elise, Lysithea) On a mod I made, I gave every infantry an NuXCOM style dash that increased movement by 2. Using this dash would prevent you from attacking in the same turn, and for every bonus tile moved this way, the unit takes 2 damage. Because Armor Knights had such high defense, they could utilize this better than anyone else, same with axe fighters who had high HP.
I agree that armors should be kept at a lower move than other units. In more modern FE games you have a lot of options to help make up for it whether that be using your dancer on them, pair up mechanics, rescue/warp abilities etc that force players to make up for their innate weaknesses with tactical solutions. Getting your armor knight across a big map to hold a choke or fight a boss feels more strategic than just giving them enough move to do it themselves.
I feel the way to fix armors is to bring back rescue mechanics and good varied map design. Armors tend to suck on seize or route because they have poor move and typically don't one round.
Ironically, Geneology actually makes armors pretty strong in terms of combat, it's just that Arden trying to trek across the map is like a square peg and a round hole (I gave him the Leg Ring to mitigate the problem, but he still was chasing abit without Canto + on him). Not only did both Generals and Barons have good weapon variety and strong stats, Geneology gave the advanced class armors the class skill Great Shield, meaning even with effective damage or magic, there's a percent chance it's not gonna hurt them, maximizing their tank role. They make for actually tough bosses sitting on their castles, because they don't need to worry about going anywhere. Were there more instances where reinforcements could spawn near the castle besides Ch 2, Arden would have a legitimate niche in the game. Personally, I think they do need a class skill to parallel Canto for them to blossom. Wary Fighter or Great Shield could work, but an interesting idea would be a skill that buffs terrain bonuses on them. This would give them the role of moving from terrain to terrain, as well as make enemy armors effective through sitting on their thrones or fortresses. I'm curious which class skill most people would prefer on them?
armor units should have been one of the types that benefitted the most heavily from the pair up mechanic due to it meaning you can launch them into the fray of combat on a flier and then have them do all the work. But the ability to grind levels in awakening and fates mixed with the fact that their stat caps weren't much of any better than other classes/any master seal class with capped stats basically doesn't have to worry about numbers anymore all lined up to make armor units just not have a reason to be kept around unless you liked that character specifically. I think rather than trying to give every map side objectives that are close enough for them to get to, it would likely be better to have maps entirely focused on different goals than just getting to the other side and killing the boss so that different unit types are simply able to help more or less to increase diversity over the entire game rather than trying to force it on every map. Like, for maps that encourage armors, what if you are given a large fort with multiple choke points in every direction that you need to defend the throne instead of take the throne, so you have to decide which choke points need a big beefy guard and which ones you're willing to risk squishier units fighting at because there are to many to simply plug all of them with an armor unit. They would also excel in a map that's indoors that might not even let you use your cavalry or pegasi due to horses not fitting inside, so maybe those units are allowed but they have to dismount into infantry but suffer from their lower stats, while the close cramped quarters doesn't hinder an armor unit at all. Open maps already encourage the high movement units so there's no need to change anything to help them. Infantry already benefits from having most of the main lords and thus being kinda necessary while also in modern games atleast kinda just being the starter class until you can class up into something more specialized and thus more useful, so it's more a stepping stone now with a few strong but niche classes like Gremory or dancer sticking out.
Roger in FE1 has been a consistently good unit who decimated the wyvern reinforcements on Maria and Minerva’s joining map. Tanking and dodging hits time and time again. I tried getting Draug up to speed but he kept getting really unlucky with level ups and wasn’t able to use silver lances.
Honestly, starting game armor knights should have the minimum rank for 1 to 2 range weapons with sizeable bulk. Also, a potential savior skill through supports to take hits in place of other units would be a boon and promote unit synergy.
I am a huge Oswin fan and Gilliam fan. Sometimes it's fun to just choke chip and funnel enemies with the heavy boys. I think they either need more str skill and hp if they are class locked. I kind of do not like the recent second seal to whatever class you want because everyone is gunna make magic or flier sweeper teams and it gets rid of what makes armors so cool.
Low movement equals less opportunity to get exp which just just makes the high defense useless same with low damage especially with mages around Meanwhile calviery units are more balanced but give so much movement plus canter in the games. By the time the armor unit makes it to the end of the map they are obsolete
I think knights tend to not get exp because they are bad statswise more often than because their movement prevents them from seeing combat. Effie doesn't have too hard a time getting exp in conquest because you actually really benefit from her combat, Wolf and Sedgar are the same in Shadow Dragon, and louis does well in Engage for the same reason. When Louis does fall off, it's not primarily because of his movement or a lack of exp, it's because his combat stops being impressive. When there are strong enemies, and armors have good stats, low move doesn't stop them from getting exp imo. Knights usually struggle to get exp in games where their combat isn't good, or where enemies are so weak that you just don't need a bulkier unit. Exception for Arden. He just doesn't get to do anything even if he were really good.
@@actuallizard yeah Effie and Louise have the benefits of being early and making their high def a benefit to tank attacks Louise a bit more as playing your cards right he can be your mvp for the first maps and falls off fast after that with yunaka and co with dodge meta. Only time I do find the armor unit useful is when I make the main like byleth be armor as the boost with boosts give him a huge help in movement.
Honestly I think that armor move should work like Hector's move does, that way they keep the identity while still having a buff in the early game. "5 mov at the start, doesn't gain any move afterwards."
Idk there are definitely some maps in 8 where i was happy to have a leveled up armor knight. It may be unnecessary, but at the same time it also kinda feels more comfortable to know that you have this gigantic wall to rely on.
I would consider taking armor if they can move further without attacking as a balance mechanic. Having a chokepoint counter machine sounds like a nice tactical niche to have.
I find Armor Knight usefulness is directly connected to what difficulty you play on. Normal - Go for it. Good at baiting enemies, and can eat huge amounts of damage at chokepoints. Even Barth can be pretty dang useful in FE6 on normal. Hard - Little bit riskier, need to often be shown favouritism to be able to function, depending on the game of course. I remember Bors in FE6 in particular being damn near useless if his early levels get defense-screwed on level ups. Lunatic / Insane or higher - Lol. Lmao.
personally, and one of the 2 examples im gonna give isnt an Armor Knight, but I consider him one cause Feh keeps giving him Armor Alts, and thats Ephraim, in my first playthrough of sacred stones, I just gave him the Javalin on his intro chapter and watched in Awe as he solod the entier map on his lone some while either, dodging everything or taking 0 damage. Tho I think in game hes more compable to a Great Knight, but Great Knights are intended to be the inbetween of Generals and Paladins, so I think its fine. As for the 2nd Armor that I love that would be the Black Knight in FE10, for a boss unit you get to mess around with here and there across the story, hes always great at maintaining choke points and helping out your army where its nessesary, and considering the extremely piss pour amount of opportunities the Dawn Brigade even gets, you get what you can get with them to. Shame I cant extend my praise to the intended Sword General of the game which is Meg, while ive used her before she, more often then not struggles unless ur pumping her full of BEXP
Imagine playing fe 10 and seeing your capped Marshalls having lower defense than your Wyvern who isn't even vulnerable to bows. Now that's balance.
At least BEXP exists which means the early capping isn't the worst thing
FE10 endgame is full of res-targeting enemies so the higher res caps of Marshalls actually is a boon over Wyverns.
@@alexpowell1184
But let's be honest, would you take a potential higher res cap over +3 mov?
@@chrisf.9595 probably not but the impact is lessened in the tower since the maps tend to be pretty small and you’re often not moving units their whole distance anyway. Honestly feel like a fully trained/invested Marshall might be better than Haar in the tower, as controversial as that might be lol
@@alexpowell1184canto is a thing, lol
I feel Armor Knights have definitely improved over the years, they are generally more worthwhile units in recent games, especially in Conquest, where having a General can be a lifesaver in some situations
They've definitely done better with them lately. Effie is huge in early conquest, and Louis is really helpful in early engage too. Having good stats in games with strong enemies and either good movement tools or small maps is a big deal.
Definitely. Early game Engage on maddening is practically impossible without Louis
And it goes both ways. Armors are legit terrifying if you don't have the tools to deal with them quickly in Engage
@@actuallizard Effie is huge in conquest as a whole. She was able to wall off the ninjas in ninja hell (ch17) and I was able to solo the kitsune map (ch19) with her. And if she’s accidentally left in range of a mage or armorslayer, wary fighter is gonna ensure she can’t get doubled
@@melon42301plus she makes an incredible kinshi through Mozu friendship. It makes her surprisingly good speed growth useable, keeps lances, and gives her 1-2 range control with lances + bows
I think even in games where early armours happen to be good units, its never because of their armour status, its because they can go into better classes with their statline. Effie can go fighter and do boatloads of damage, and Louis can go halberdier and double with pincer attack with his strong and bulky statline
I'd say the Pair Up system in Fates is pretty epic for Armour Knights cuz it allows them to have lots more offensive capabilities. Like using Pair Up to ferry them across the map (as mentioned in the video) and using Attack Stance's dual strikes as an alternative way to get kills without having to double. Someone like Effie or even a reclassed Arthur can be used offensively in some maps like CQ Ch.10 while still retaining those defensive qualities for maps like Ch.17. It's quite a refreshing take on the Armour Knight that improves their flexibility between maps and I hope that that dynamic could return.
Yeah Pair up feels huge for armors, it's a mechanic I think would be cool to return in future Fire Emblems.
Also when an armor unit is paired up as the "backup unit" they provide a great amount of bulk to the main unit as well. About 4-5 def. So they'll make great use of the deployment slots even if your strategy doesn't revolve around them by making your other units stronger.
Pair up is hard to balance, but with how cavalry in engage being complete garbage, making cavalry into the only unit that can pair up might be great
a big downside of both fates and awakening pair up was that it felt really strange to play the game when the AI never pair ups, in awakening they couldn't and in fates they would only pair up if they spawned that way, it would have been great if ai on fates was able to effectively use the pair up system and in future games if the mechanic returns as well
@@vitortakara7090 That would be absolutely terrifying but also kinda fun. And as for the pre-spawed paired-up in Fates it can already get pretty scary when it's two General with Weary Figther or two Swordmasters.
I definitely feel that we're getting better with Armor's implementation. Fates, 3H and Engage have all made at least a few characters in the class genuinely viable at certain points in the game on higher difficulties, so I'm decently happy with where they are.
I agree, but also like to mention how much Edelgard showed good design of objectives and maps can help different classes and play styles to feel impactful. As we saw in 3H, not designing maps with considerations can make even the strongest and most focused on armor knights feel disappointing, even if they have access to one of the most overpowered tools in the game.
I felt at points armor was a NECESSITY in engage hardmode because one bad hit and your broken unit can easily just crumble or severely mess up your following turn
I wonder if just making the games more difficult also help making armor knights more relevant by simply requiring them at times to hold chokepoints until it's safe for the rest of your army to advance.
@@kambyznn149
But nobody keeps Edelgard as an armor class in 3H. They just use her as wyvern. Thus she's not really a good example of a good armor when 98% of the player base won't use her signature armored classes.
Three houses definitely did NOT help armors. They feel about as useful as in fe6, which is to say not at all.
Something you didn't mention about Effie is her insane base 50 spd growth. With a little luck, I would even have _her_ start doubling some of the slower enemies.
Can confirm. In my first Conquest playthrough my Effie hit about 30 Speed with Tonics and Food Bonuses.
There are a LOT of situations where Effie doubling is a damn Godsend, the most immediate example I can think of is Takumi's wall defense chapter where being able to draw out the Lancers without dying and no selling the Archers was pivotal in giving the rest of my team any approach at all.
Which is why Great Knight is probably the better path for her. She’s probably the best non-royal unit.
Oswin and Hector are also great in FE7 because it has a lot of defense maps and a lot of maps that are small and basically force you to not move much
I think how important the movement penalty is really depends on the game. Games like 3H have extreme speed bonuses that functionally negate the issue Armors have, whereas Fates and Awakening have Pairing up as a core fundamental of ferrying Knights. Some games could probably benefit from 5 mov over 4 mov Knights. Also, Soldiers would still retain their identities against Knights, as Knights could be considered to be soldiers with extremes, with high bulk and decent to high power in exchange for poorer speed and res. Even without the move penalty in those games, statistically and skill wise Generals play very different from Spear Masters.
Gilliam may be slow but I always found his character design and armor color scheme way too cool to ever bench as a kid. Even now I can't help but use him even if it takes a while lol
Gilliam also helps a lot with growing Amelia, and its so cool seeing Gilliam and Amelia create a choke hold together or double down on a difficult enemy that could kill my squishy-er characters.
In my first play through of fe7 I must’ve gotten incredibly lucky with levelups on my oswin because at the end of the game he wasn’t just fast for an armor knight he was just fast. He consistently doubled most enemy units, was near invincible due to his massive defense, was able to retaliate and 1 round most enemy units due to his high attack, and after giving him some boots was easily able too keep up with the team and stay on the front lines. He was by far my best unit while playing the game.
You got lucky too, my Oswin is a combat machine. There weren't many enemies he couldn't at least hold off while someone else picked them off
Yeah Oswin and Pent were my best guys in that game
FE7 enemies have really low speed overall. You don't need to be that lucky to get enough speed to double with him, just a couple of lucky level ups are usually enough. I would say that Armor Knights are at a better place in this game compared to Myrmidons for example because of that.
Feels like describing fighting-game heavies.
Makes a lumbering tank that walks while everyone else runs.
There's also the RD Gatrie approach where you slap on a 60% speed growth and let him double everything.
Due to his caps though I find he still struggles to double a lot of enemies anyways
@@portalguy2246 By endgame sure, but there's a very wide window of time where 31 speed doubles relevant targets.
As someone who just got into fire emblem last year, I feel the armour knight is a class that just gives a feeling of safety for new players. I remember playing fire emblem awakening for the first time, when Kellam joined my army, I just felt safe. Just able to let him tanking all the give me a sense of safety, although sometime thst can be a false sense of security when a mage shows up😂, but still the idea is there. Also map where enemies reinforcement shows up behind and just started to rush your army, having a few armoured knight or 1 general to cover your flank just to make it safer, atleast for me.
Oswin is amazing early game. Especially for HHM ironmans.
Cool video I can tell you worked hard on it!
One idea I had was to allow them to boost the defense of units around them, or protect them in some way.
In my mind, armor knights are supposed to be shields, valiantly defending their allies from any (non-magical) harm. It would make sense if they could somehow protect adjacent units, either with a flat out +2 or 3 to defense, or something else.
Additionally, positional skills like swap and pivot are a good idea for knights as well!
Prody do exaxtly that in Vestaria saga, and has paragon and good bases on top of that.
He is still a low tier unit because when the maps are large enought 4 mov js a death sentence no matter what.
I guess that is true.
Other than lowering the map size, I don't see a way to really mitigate that issue tbh-
@@blazerthewyvernwriter don't design every single map around crossing an huge distance. Low mov units are dramatically better in games with small maps. Ironically even FEH is an example.
That would be way too much in a single target game and even comes with some exploits in general such as placing them on a corner tile of an enemy so the enemy's counter get reduced damage. They are a tank and giving the ability to tank to others while being able to avoid magic doesn't work well in a single target tile game.
They would be so oppressive defensively that you'd have to make maps designed with the intent to invalidate them.
Another idea how Armor Knights could be buffed is by establishing Zones of Control. Basically the Armor Knight "blocks" tiles adjacent to him, requiring units to need additional move to get through these tiles. It would emphasize both Armors job of protecting allies and their role as the wall on open maps as well.
Luie is awesome. Oneshots problematic targets, solos earlygame, has move to keep up with the army and great knight puts him as fast or faster than other units.
Effie being able to carry maps like kitsune's/ninja cave and one-rounding late game stoneborns is so ridiculous. Armors feel so weak in the newer releases whenever i remember what Benny and Effie could do.
Tbf those two were probably the best armor knights in the series, followed closely by early game engage Louis
@@degreeskelvin3025oswin tho
@@noukan42 kid named Dussel:
@@drawberry_jam i wouldn't count great knights in general because they don't have the usual weakness of armor knights.
wary fighter > swap fr
Obviously General Wolf and Sedgar are the most notorious fe11 generals, but there are many units who I love making armors in that game. most recently I did a harebrained Hunter->General Caesar and jt was so fun! he was doubling and not taking damage and doing that with Caesar felt so good. Darros also, hilariously, gets 0 spd base and growth as General but sky high hp and def to truly minmax. there are also just plenty of units that make goofy but fun armors, like Bord, Castor, and Gordin. underrated for sure
obv not optimal but I encourage anyone to try at least hunter-general Caesar
and thanks to @Epholo8 for giving me the dumb idea too
I think Oswin and Gatrie did it right in Blazing Blade and Path of Radiance respectively: They have low speed and movement, but high enough level and other stats to compensate. Leveling them up and promoting them to General isn’t nearly as much of a chore as most other Armor Knights, and I’m pretty sure that’s why.
I like your solution of just buffing the stats. In a franchise where movement is so important, sacrificing it should come with some major power bonuses as a trade; and often it just.... doesn't for armor knights. They should feel like Hector in FE7: If someone is engaging them, they're either
1) A magic-user
2) Making a mistake
Actually getting them into battle should be the hardest part of using one. Getting crit or doubled doesn't matter when you're not taking damage, so you would just have to keep an archer buzzing around them to pick off mages. Teamwork makes the dream work.
Of course, having maps made specifically to give armor knights something to do is nice, but I bet it limits creativity quite a bit to always have to stop and ask "This is great, but what are the armor knights gonna do?". Alternatively, FE typically has the player attacking into enemies or on a time limit, so a few more defense maps would never hurt variety.
As a third solution, I'd invoke a taunt ability. I haven't played all the newer games in the franchise, so maybe this is already a thing, but having an ability to force nearby units to attack the armor knight would open up a lot more strategies; both defensive and aggressive. This way, having your armor knight lag behind with the backline units wouldn't be a problem, but a feature. The cleric's best friend.
I think a taunt would be really good for armor knights to have at base.
The problem with general amelia is that she doesnt wear any leg armor, what is the point of slowing yourself down with heavy chest armor if you still die from getting hit in the knees?
Nah, she's an anime girl. Literally no one will use that to their advantage
Are you referring to Amelia in heroes?
They probably want to justify giving her 35 spd for an armored unit
Or they just want to put recruit design, also her damaged art is probably a reference to her recruit animation
IRL legs are the least important part to armor. Because its very easy to guard your legs. Just be a competent fighter and your legs will never be open to hit.
She just doesn't want to be an adventurer anymore
...yeah I'll see myself out
I see no one bitching and whining about this when it's men showing skin, including men running around fully armored except no breastplate at all.
Even Guts in Berserk throughout much of the Manga and Anime didn't wear any armor on his arms, and considering you're wielding your weapon with your arms you present them to the enemy more than your legs which makes them more vulnerable.
But people only notice and complain about these things when it's women... It's annoying as hell
I know that in FE 12 New Mystery of the Emblem, the prologue maps are small enough for your MU Knight to get around the maps rather efficiently.
It’s been my preferred class choice when playing Lunatic or Lunatic Reverse. Plus Arron gets to go General for the first 3-4 chapters pending on how often you’ll need him to take a hit.
I think Dedue from Fire Emblem 3 Houses has one of the coolest designs for an armor knight. His personal skill increases his defense by 4 if he waits which will be extremely valuable on early maps when attacks are hitting for 10 or so damage but as you progress through the game and attacks start hitting for 30, you won't be able to rely on that. Instead, he can learn the combat art Vengeance which will increase attack based on HP lost and allow him to get some kills that other armor classes would struggle with.
I gave 1 of the movement boost items to Panette in Engage and turned her into a general. She became a nearly invincible blender and didn't really have issues keeping up due to the map design being what it is in engage.
Armor Knights are my favorite class in the game, I grew up falling in love with Oswin and thought Wallace's promotion into a General was the coolest shit ever as a kid (even if he is terrible).
My only major beef is that I feel like Armors constantly just fall off into the late-game for reasons you stated, but also because there are *so many damn casters*. Sometimes I wonder if giving Generals an innate Endure ability would help, as it would still allow them to perform their primary role of baiting out enemies or locking down chokepoints, but without the risk of just getting immediately killed by a strong caster that doubles.
Another alternative was giving them a skill that gives them Res based off of half or one-third of their Defense, though that is probably arguably too strong.
Maybe give them a skill that increases Res at certain Hp thesholds, but I don't know if that would be too strong.
I really liked your fe analysis video. They're a nice change from the usual playthrough video.
You have my sub :)
Armour knights are always either the best or worst unit in any engagement. They either tank infinite amounts of damage, or get one shot because you forgot to check the map for hammers.
I loved playing with Effie and Benny on conquest, they were almost always on the team. Being able to carry armored around with pair up system also helps a lot, pair up with a paladin, the paladin passes to a not moved yet character and in the end, just swap and done, armored positioned much more distant than 4 tiles. In the end, I changed Effie to master of arms for fun and she became a war tank.
The smash weapons in engage are a huge boon to armors. I think generals should've had armored blow (in that game it gives +10) which would further work with those weapons.
I also think Generals should be give staves. Being able to use an obstruct to help funnel enemies to them and reward to help keep up or dive bomb a pack of swordsman would be so much fun. Also a pair of them on the front lines to keep each other healthy. Sounds like a good time
As someone who has played fire emblem for over a decade and aspires to make my own rom hack, I really love your takes and find them to be very useful
I loved using armors when I first started playing cause every character felt so fragile. These days I rarely use them since the lower movement just feels awkward to me, even if it’s usually only one move less than the infantry.
The last time I used an armor all the way to the endgame was on a conquest run. I was using Effie and she was SERIOUSLY speed screwed, like 1-2 points over her base speed after 12 levels. I was considering dropping her but I decided to hold out until wary fighter. I loved using her as a backpack for Xander, that pairing carried me through the ninja cave. As a general she sauced all over the kitsune village since they couldn’t damage her and she OHKOd all of them with the beast killer, and there she was able to learn wary fighter. I reclassed her to great knight and from there she was popping off, able to survive a round with any enemy and deal back massive damage, the occasional Luna proc also helped with one shots. She and Xander were quite the power couple, and I got a pretty swole siegbert out of it too
A lot of armors that are good are definitely good in SPITE of being an armor, not because of it, and of course a big problem is that armor knights, more than literally any other class in the series, are heavily dependent on map design to be considered favorable picks
A map that's even slightly too open, or a game with slightly too weak enemies, results in the major advantages of armors evaporating and thus, they become annoying to use with little payoff because of it
I think as well that one thing not touched on is that owing to the relative simplicity of FE's basic combat mechanics, there's not many ways to go about a hyper tanky unit that doesn't incentivize just using another unit who is maybe not AS tanky but is more mobile.
Add on to the fact that armor knights are so extreme in their stat lines, and you end up with a lopsided class that struggles unless its extremes are actually required.
One notable thing though that I think could help make armors interesting, and you brought it up yourself: giving them inherently better stats than your other allies, but specifically, do it in such a way that you unlock something that's not actually particularly common in FE: oneshotting potential. And EARLY oneshot potential at that.
There's the classic tradition of the Jagen, who at least partially tends to bank on their higher weapon ranks alongside overall better stat line to provide a solid anchor for your early units to train up, but I think that armor knights, when given sufficiently high base weapon ranks, can fill this role in quite well too, and arguably better than the Jagen might.
TL;DR: Give the Armor Knight a high enough weapon rank to use high power weaponry in much the same way you might give an early Paladin or similar a silver lance or sword to use.
Note that this primarily covers early game Armor Knights, but for Knights joining midgame or lategame Generals, here's a bit of a controversial pick:
Introduce the Save set of skills (maybe brand them as, say, Savior) from Fire Emblem Heroes, which essentially allow an armor knight to quite literally STEP IN for another combat unit when an enemy attacks them on enemy phase.
Alternatively, giving Generals something like Provoke could accomplish something similar.
TL;DR: Give armor knights something that forces enemies to interact with THEM over one of your other units.
Shining Force's equivalent has an interesting solution; Guntz compensates for his low move by being good when it comes to terrain. On mountains specifically he's the only non-flier who isn't slowed. (Well, I assume Adam isn't either, but there's only one outdoor map left after he joins and he's going to be extremely underleveled for it)
I’ve been playing through path of radiance on my CRT for the first time in my entire life and have absolutely loved my armor knight Brom. I gave him the Vantage perk and having him bait attacks AND always hitting first has me outright devious with my plays
Shadows of Valencia made armors "balanced" on highs and lows. Random encounters were perfect size and quick. Stats were ok, but the teleporting witches would obliterate them
I honestly really love the Knight/General class because how how much hits they can take from physical attacks even dealing heavy damage back. While yes they are slow and are weak to magic attacks it atleast makes them good enough for when surrounded by physical units where as for magical units you rather avoid them as much as possible unless you can somehow 1 round them but that is highly unlikely to happen.
Disgaea has an interesting approach to armor units.
Some of the same issues apply, but all units can have their mobility enhanced through Lift & Throw, and armors specifically happen to be the best generic units for throwing in most games they're in. So not only are armors not really slowing the army down, they're in fact usually making the army FASTER because of their contribution in aggressive extensions and repositioning.
Slower monsters can run into similar issues, and can't throw to speed up the army, but this tends to be counteracted by how absurdly strong a lot of such monsters are, and the fact that they can still at least be thrown. They're often among the only units that can take multiple attacks per turn, so throwing them to the front makes sense.
I'd probably explore the concept of giving them more support-oriented options. I think being able to do something like "nearby units take reduced damage" or "enemies will prioritize the armor unit" or "enemies cannot pass through the tiles adjacent to the armor knight's position" as either combat arts or class skills would probably do nicely for armor knight units while still sticking to the general theme of the class.
NGL the first thing I did when I started making a Sacred Stones ROM was to install the Skill System patch to give Gilliam Drive Defense as his personal skill so he is useful even if he's lagging behind, because +4 Defense to all your allies within two squares helps the rest of the army enough that I want him to baby my investment projects while being one himself. (Now I have to mention that he is a poor investment target because his growths are bad... 😢)
I think fe gaiden/echoes got the armor knights right. Give them hight hp, str, def, and skill/dex rates, and low rates on the other stats. They're supposed to give the player good positioning by creating walls to prevent your less defensive units from being ganged up on, while also softening the enemies to finish them in player phase. Usually in the hard difficulties you get to see armored knights shine because you actually have to strategize. In normal difficulty, paladins usually eclipse them in positioning, spacing, and speed
Wow, thanks for making an analysis that takes into account the unique identity of armor knights and how they can fit into different play-styles. I agree that just giving them regular movement capabilities would miss the point. A lot of the hardcore (and vocal) FE community focuses on LTC, where 'efficiency' is the most prized virtue and high-movement units are king, so thanks also for considering other playstyles that value other aspects of the game. I think that Fire Emblem is like Pokemon, in that every unit is someone's favorite, and they will try to use them and make them a part of their playthrough.
Path of Radiance actually did armors quite well IMO. The biggest thing is that everyone has +1 movement, so the gap between them and other infantry doesn't feel as bad. Most of the maps aren't even that big, and the ones that are still give them lots to do with reinforcement positions. Gatrie is a fantastic early game unit who can still hold his own later on. Brom has a tougher time early, but he scales quite well and has more room to grow with the knight ward. Tauroneo is a very well balanced pre-promote who can actually take a couple magic hits, giving him a solid niche over the others. Cavalry still reigns supreme in PoR, but the armors can hold their own quite well.
One thing I didn't hear you mention is that *new* players are among those that are going to be playing slow and not "efficiently". I think armors, even in their current state, make the game more approachable for new players.
One thing that might be neat I have is based on a personal skill in engage that gives a bonus based on weapon rank of the enemy; maybe give armors an innate skill that boosts defense based on the rank of the weapon the enemy is using. This makes their defenses better against stronger enemies while not immediately making them immune to weaker enemies, and makes their defenses better in harder modes (where enemies will have higher rank weapons) without having to just outright buff their stats for hard mode.
My most played Fire Emblem by far is 7 and I played a ton of Link Arena in that, it was back in high school and we had a group of 4-5 people who just constantly replayed the game training new and stronger units/teams for the link arena
Generals(Oswin, Wallace) always performed extremely well here with high stat caps and ability to use 2 different weapons including Vaida's spear you could get from using the glitch with the mine, Oswin in particular had really good support options too
I was shocked years later to learn that the narrative is that Paladin+Fliers are the kings of the game cause low con and low stat caps always caused us to avoid them lol
One thing FE can do is make the Jeigan a General that doesn't double but is powerful in all other stats. Low movement is not an issue at first because the maps are smaller and have choke points. Also, a good Jeigan is one that phases out around halfway and the low move would do that.
I think they should be impeded by less terrain. Which is a change they have been going through in recent games.
But I think the biggest change that would fix them would be nerfing fliers by 1 move; flyers are always going to be good. They keep getting better and have only one weakness, bows, but are also ideal for flying over and picking off lone archers. Heck, a lot of fliers in recent games are evasive enough to dodge bows reliably, so you can actually leave them surrounded by archers and they'll be ok 9 times out of 10. I love fliers as much as the next guy, but they will only be marginally worse with one less move. They already ignore all terrain, including walls. They will still be able to move so much more than other units, but not so much that all non-fliers and especially armors get left in the dust. It's good to plan situations that will be good for each unit type, but the movement disparity is really bad, not just for armors. It should be a difference of a couple turns, not the 10+ you might go through if you want an armor to finish off the boss.
The next thing is just include more boots than usual so players can still make their nerfed-fliers completely broken or build a marathon runner armor. The boots are very good for strategic gameplay. There should be more, but not so many half your army can zoom around the map each turn unless they are just super expensive and buyable.
You know, favoring fliers less is an unintuitive way to boost slow classes, but I think you might be right. I feel the series has undergone something of a 'movement power creep' over the years. The stacking movement boosts of third-tier cavalry and flying classes in 3H gave them enormous mobility. When combined with that game's other tools like Stride, dancing, and Warp, the results were just nuts. I remember seeing that Hapi, a magic-user on a horse with 8 movement, got a skill that increased her attack range, and thinking, 'that's just unnecessary; give that skill to an infantry class instead.' When using Mire her range was just about the whole damn map.
Man.. I've never even played a Fire Emblem game and you still managed to make this video interesting and understandable. Thanks YT Algorithm.
I like Three Houses system as solution to the problem - if a character can become an armored knight he/she can also become a brigand allowing to switch between classes depending on the map for that extra bit of movement while in the end allowing to even move into a heavy cavalry class.
That's not a solution tho. That doesn't make armor better. It just allows armored units to swap into better classes.
@@l.n.3372 I see it differently - until Great Knight I basically swapped my axe units depending on the mission, bigger maps got brigands while smaller or more defensive maps got armor so I could set up n enemy turn that didn't need healing every turn.
@@mareczek00713
But that's not a solution. That's basically a band aid saying "yeah this class sucks on maps. I won't use it anymore here."
A solution would be, for example, like what Fates attempted. New skills (wary fighter) to prevent doubling. That way low speed armor isn't too bad since the opponent can't double either.
FEH went a different route. Smaller maps cuz mobile game. Armors were broken for a long time cuz higher BST.
@@l.n.3372 And pegasus riders suffer on archer maps, and cavalry suffers if we give enemies horse slayers.
As I said - the class is fine, it has its purpose, the game just needs map design incentivising usage of different classes.
@@mareczek00713
Not really. If you've played FE games in the past, you would never bench you flying units even on maps with archers. Their movement is usually too valuable. In GBA games, they can also carry your infantry units too, giving them extra utility. Some games give shields that grand immunity to archers. FE3H made a skill that grants avoid if you wait on player phase. Fliers in FE are absolutely broken and nobody benches them.
The way to make a class better is not "hmm let's bench them." That just proves they're bad. If you're benching armors, you're acknowledging they're bad. And that doesn't fix the issue.
I think for me oswain, was just easily my favorite armor knight and he became more or less my go to dude to send in for being the beef cake I needed to bait and protect my squishy units. Since I loved using archers a lot. Yeah I am that slow guy ,but there is something fun about giving your enemies the same treatment when they swarm you
I love playing armor strategies,it really makes me feel like im commanding an army and it feels super good to be an invincible group of people that works all together beating up those bad guys and the slow movement actually makes it feel a little bit more powerful as if my enemies should fear my march.
Personally I'm a slower-pace player, and what do you know, I love my big bulky Armors. A lot, Arden probably being one of my favorite characters overall even.
As said, they're there to to their job and act as a bait and weaken the enemies while tanking their hits so your fragile glass-cannons can finis 'em off easy and get EXP to then in order do their job. And also grant some EXP for the healer(s) as well while on top of it.
And much like you said, I feel like the simple solution of just giving 'em better stats would be all they really need, honestly.
God knows why but oon my latest Engage run I ended up making Lady Anna a General... Probably for *** and giggles more than anything really.
But the thing is while she doesn't necessarily transcend the armor class she makes it work surprisingly well. She has enough speed to reliably avoid getting doubled or in some cases even being able to double herself, or she can get a lucky dodge at times as well thanks to it. Not to mention it helps her actually hit something as well.
But also, due her dex being pretty high she can also crit her foes reliably - even without equipping killer weapons - and at times this has resulted in her getting a much needed kill in retaliation.
Not to mention (although this only more or less works for her really) she can also make use of that fairly early Hurricane Axe you get, which only adds to her capabilities o act as a wall that also breaks walls.
For a something born out of a joke she sure - true to her character - made sure that I still got my investments worth though.
Some aspects I think really can be played with:
• Grazing effects, as in environmental or magical chip effects. Let armor characters be straight up immune to these additions
• While they have generally superior stats, they can have a greater role when it goes to controlling chokepoints for survive or protect based objectives. Damage prevention and the Obstruct ability emphasized can make armor feel meaningful.
• Utility and support! If not Obstruct, let them increase defense for adjacent characters
• Yeah smaller maps helps a lot. I loved them in Fire Emblem Heroes back when I was playing.
I feel you went a little light on wolf and sedgar. they straight up break the game. They can basically solo everything and can and will tank hammers and magic attacks through shear bulk. there is only a handful of maps they can't solo, and these are either not major problems or are generally warp skipped regardless. They are horrible in the OP department.
We got example of armored knight with move tho. It is called black knight. Joke aside as you said take, repositioning skill and pair could mitigate its movement issue.
Armor Knights/Generals should be your Boss Killer unit. And your Boss; They are your best/most reliable unit when it comes to combat.
They should have the best combat stats AND the most weapon options. Because they are Generals, Masters of War. This means they have the highest maximum Attack/Skill/Speed/Defense/HP stats. (Only being tied in specific stats against Specialist Classes. Like the Swordmaster and the Berserker). The Armor Knight/General should be beating OR, at least, rivaling every physical Class.
If even in level no one alone should be able to beat them in combat. Unless, The Armor Knight/General is specifically being itemized against. Basically, to defeat them it should require Armor-Slaying Weapons, Weapon-Type Advantage, Ranged Attacks, and/or Coordinated Attacks from multiple units.
If an Armor Knight/General manages to get into a fight with someone, their opponent should lose. Because the Armor Knight/General is the combat expert. And not just with any one weapon, but combat in general. Because of their Disciplined Training, Versatile Weaponry, and Superior Equipment. And because they are sacrificing everything, just so that they can be the best at fighting.
Knights tend to be at their best when they have more going for them beyond their statline or at least having a reasonable compromise. Being naturally unbreakable in Engage is absolutely huge given how dangerous enemies can be, the robust skill system of fates/awakening letting them compensate for their innate weaknesses/hit harder/tank better/ do whatever you need them to do (wary fighter is honestly under appreciated) the pair up systems let them work around their low movement and still provide some excellent buffs in back up. We're still a long way away from the unga bunga that is knights in Tactics Ogre or Final Fantasy Tactics sure, but at least the future is looking bright for the units once stuck on "castle defense".
I really enjoy how Armor Knights felt in Engage. not having the movement deficit kick in till general gave them a really good gamefeel, and Louis had the DEF to really make tanking work even on harder difficulties.
one of the things that really frustrates me about GBA era Armors is how many weakness they have outside of speed. Their low RES and LUCK means that they're at constant risk of low % criticals and mage one-rounds, and often times the archetype gives them shaky hit rates, meaning that their ONE attack per turn has a decent chance of whiffing. it makes them downright unplayable
i actually love using sedgar in shadow dragon, everything is op in shadow dragon, the wingspear is op, forging is op, sedgar is op, ballistas are op, shadow dragon is the most fun FE game to me to play, there are so many things to experiment with. also the first few maps on merciless 5 or whatever its called are brutal, so i think its fair to have some fun after that.
Having bad movement is what sells Armors for me. It is part of their identity and not everything needs to be meta.
I love Arden and characters like Effie and Oswin are indeed amazing. It ultimately ends up on the situation of the game (maps, objectives and enemies) and tools they have. Like with every other unit.
I've only played a bit of three houses yet, but there is a bit of fun to using a gambit to make the armour knight faster and teleport it across the battlefield as well.
Efficient? probably not. But is it funny to catapult the slowest unit across the board? yes.
I agree with your take that stats are mostly the way to 'fix' armor knights. If the purpose of them is to be basically physical walls limited by movement, they need to *be* physical walls! Echoes shows this in its class balance; it's super hard for any non-mage to deal with an armored unit. And in Engage on Hard at least, Louie famously just soaks up all physical assault aimed at him.
Actually, one thing I do want to highlight about Engage's armored units is not only do they have the break resistance, but also the Greatlances and similar 'heavy' weapons exist. It doesn't limit Louie at all to carry around a silver greatlance with ike's "+3 mt +15 wt" crest when he was going to be doubled anyway, but the existance of these super high power weapons that most characters would choose not to wield is a perfect match for a Knight's statistical profile.
I love having one dedicated armor knight per playthrough regardless of the game/difficulty. At lower difficulties they are practically immune to damage, allowing for a reliable source of enemy phasing damage/kills, and even on higher difficulties it allows extra strategies of being a road block for enemies. While I do think they tend to run out of usefulness at higher difficulties/later in the game, they are really fun to play with.
Honestly i think the 5 move aspect of armors is pretty easy to maintain and balance around over wary fighter, not only can you just not give them move on promotion if they become too centralizing which has happened in the series before, but they also suffer the most out of any class movement wise when considering terrain movement as well, which combined with low speed is pretty bad for even min maxed units, Hector has base 5 move and isnt too centralizing while also being fun to use which i think is a good base to go off of. I think wary fighter becomes alot more of an issue due to the fact enemy armored units cant be doubled which even with strong magic and effective damage makes them alot more annoying to deal with, and also makes faster physical enemies pretty obselete if armors just remove their niche. But regardless love the unique style of fe content
Honestly I will always come to the defense of armored knights, but you make fairly good points. They’re cool in 3H though: if you take the time to master War Master, they become an amazing enemy phase unit, where they don’t really take damage and thus always double on the counter due to Quick Riposte always triggering. Use Lysithea, Linhardt, Manuela or Hapi to warp them into a choke point or rescue them with Bernadetta, Flayn or Constance if they fall behind too much, and you’re golden.
I like your train of thought. I think armor knights are a fine class, but they are not well represented in terms of the characters of that class. Thinking about some of the armor knights that I am most familiar with (Wendy, Barthe, Bors, Oswin, Gilliam, and Amelia), most of them just have bad stats. Like, I wouldn’t use Barthe or Wendy if they were Mercenaries instead. Heck, I probably wouldn’t use them even if they were Cavaliers!
Oswin and Gilliam get by because their personal bases are so dang high. Most of the other armor knight representatives in the series leave a bad impression of the class to their own incompetency as a character, not because of the class they are in.
Yeah I just started playing Fire Emblem a few months ago, with FE7 being my first entry into the series. I ended up taking Oswin all the way to the end of the game. The fact that every other map or so, they would spawn reinforcements to attack Merlinus's camp made me feel better about leaving him behind to guard, because he was basically a one man army.
He's the only reason I managed to kill Ursula, as I had to face tank her Bolting attacks with him because otherwise she would just one shot anyone else on my roster. After his promotion to general, he managed to double many enemies, and just one or two shot them, taking hardly any damage in return.
So Oswin will definitely always hold a place in my heart.
This might be a weird take, but if we're gonna go with class identity, I like to consider knights as tanks that can level light terrain obstacles just by walking over them. However, their heavy armor will weigh them down in certain terrain like sand. So if anything, maybe an armor buff would be that their movement is not affected by terrain such as brushes and forests, but get very punished by desert terrain like how the Solm quicksand works.
Something I really enjoy about hacks is how they try to fix this issue in different ways. Order of the Crimson Arm had one of my favorite solutions: it gave them bows! Armors being able to attack enemies without having to move toward them helps mitigate some of the movement issue, and gives them the ability to choke points at all stages of the game without unequipping entirely. Archers in that game are so strong that they can frequently one-round units, so it doesnt step into their design space too hard, and it means Javelins can keep their downsides.
I'd say keeping their move values close enough is important Armour 4, Foot 5 Cav 6 (all +1 on promotion) is OK, Armnour 4 ,foot 5 fast foot 6, cav 7, Light cav and fliers 8 (with some units getting more than +1 on promotion) is too harsh a penalty however no unit should be twice the movespeed of another without terrain or items involved. Good additional mitigation (immune to double, chance invul tank, etc) also helps keep them relevant.
I think a cool buff they could give to armor knights would be supporting adjacent units. They could added defenses to adjacent allies or like have a % chance to block damage for allies (like Lucina's emblem ring bonded shield).
I think pivoting to supportive utility would help to keep their identity as a defensive unit without also making them goated at combat.
There's a srpg game called dark deity and their armor knights give adjacent allies defence.
I haven't played a ton of FE in general, but overall, I just love the concept of a nigh-impenetrable warrior marching towards the enemy forces, or being the one thing standing between weakened units/civilians, and an endless swarm
I think the Wary Fighter skill was one of the best things to happen to armor knights. Giving them that by default, or some other unique ability, would let them have utility without busting their stats. Maybe something like the Rampart skill from the knights of Tactics Ogre LUCT?
There is also rescue dropping Armors into action.
Oswin apparently can't be rescued after promotion
I like using Dedue, Louis, and Jade. Oh and Edlegard which her actual cannon class is basically an armor knight type.
I REALLY love armour knights, they're my favourite unit type, and I make space for one in every game, they're like, bottom tier units 70% of the time and the rest they're okay/good but that won't stop me from using them just because I feel like it
My favourite character from FE ever is Bors and a promoted Arden was right up there in the front lines with the cavaliers (After turn stalling for me to get him there I'm not insane enough to give him the leg ring)
I think the one novelty of making Amelia a General in Sacred Stones is that since she has an actual speed growth and General Promotion bonuses are pretty crazy she can end up being an armor knight whom not only can't be doubled but can sometimes or even often double the opponent's instead. It's still not optimal but I admit it is fun that this is a perfect example of armor knights having at least decent speed can help them perform a lot better then if they didn't have said Speed. (Yes, Wary Fighter exists in most modern games to mitigate the issue of them being doubled but I think that shouldn't be an "excuse" to make them never have Speed)
I always promote Amelia down Knicht because of the constitution bonus. There is nothing more offensive to me on this planet than Isadora's 6 con
Also the obligatory comment that you should have more defense mission. No one really cares about low move If you just have to walk eight squares to block a gate
I only feel thus way in holy wars
And my favorite amorer guy is Lukas for some reason
I wish armored knights had some unique mechanic like mounted units have cantor. Something like defend, where he can select an adjacent ally so he can defend the first hit on enemy phase coming to them, or they unique having the defend gauge from fates and being able to defend the adjacent ally when it was full.
Also, you might have forgotten to say (or i havent payed enough attention) that fates armored units had an advantage in movement towards the previous games that is the pair up mechanic, where they could reach further places easily. If fe4 had that, it would be a huge boost for infantry and armored units for sure.
Bors might be the best armour in the series. If you give him the pursuit ring and max out his movement with boots from the secret shop (which he can purchase if you are willing to warp him there) then he is able to one round Idun using an Armads Triangle Attack.
Not enough movement stars. Ronan is the best armor
I never use him after chapter 2 on hard. He is useful there, then there is no reason to deploy him unless you’re challenging yourself.
One idea I had for buffing Armor Knights was giving them an extra Move. Not giving them another point of Move, letting them Move *twice*, at the cost of their action. It's potentially problematic, but I'm approaching this with a lot more experience in, like, TTRPG spaces where that sort of idea is a lot more common.
No mention of Lukas and Forsythe is odd, I think they're some of the most effective armour knights in the series both from a casual and efficient context.
They do simply have much higher stats than other units, which is the main reason why they're good, but another reason is Gaiden/Echoes' speed thresholds being so wide. Most units may double them, sure, but there are also a healthy amount of enemies that they can double too, like arcanists, or zombies. Arcanists in particular are something Armour knights excel at killing, their speed is just high enough to double, and they have enough strength to 2 shot them with a good lance.
Echoes in particular also does something great for them, in dungeon crawling mechanics. A huge part of why Armour Knights feel unintuitive to use is because they're front liners who can't reach the front line. If you simply hit an enemy in the dungeon, you and your armour knights will already be within attack distance of them. This subtle change makes it so much easier to get them combat and by extension exp.
I also like the ones where the lower movement is more of a skill tax. I always give Kellem move +1 and putting Siguard's ring on a heavy in Engage is just win.
I think engage did armor well by just making Louis a very strong unit. He basically cannot die unless there's mages or 4-5 backup units swarming him with chain attacks. And unbreakable made him great for enemy phase.
Plus, the option to fix his move with the sigurd ring is good fun.
Love the ladies in heavy armor, one of the best fashion outfits
Armor Knights have seperate problems throughout the game.
Early Game: As tanks they are hopelessly outclassed by Jagens. Unless they are the Jagen. While they have enough defense to usually take no damage, Jagens do the same but with more movement, utility and offense. Early FE is also usually dominated by axe users. Making their 3 extra points of defense be for naught (they take 1 extra damage, while your cavs and sword lord takes 1 less).
Mid Game: They compete with Cavaliers for Knights Seals. Cavaliers are the obvious pick every single time. And thus I go with paladin every single time. This results in a Roy situation where they spend most of their time unpromoted.
End Game: Scaling is not their friend. Strength scales faster than Defense does in most games. Combine that with better weaponry and the defense stat gets less impactful as the game progresses. Combine that with their low speed and they end up taking more damage and being more fragile than anyone who isnt the Magical Girl (Elise, Lysithea)
On a mod I made, I gave every infantry an NuXCOM style dash that increased movement by 2. Using this dash would prevent you from attacking in the same turn, and for every bonus tile moved this way, the unit takes 2 damage. Because Armor Knights had such high defense, they could utilize this better than anyone else, same with axe fighters who had high HP.
If every armor was as good as FE10 Gatrie we would not have this problem
In my current playthrough he is doubling swordmasters. Chadtrie my beloved 😍
great video, as a kid i refused to bench oswin even later in the game
I agree that armors should be kept at a lower move than other units. In more modern FE games you have a lot of options to help make up for it whether that be using your dancer on them, pair up mechanics, rescue/warp abilities etc that force players to make up for their innate weaknesses with tactical solutions. Getting your armor knight across a big map to hold a choke or fight a boss feels more strategic than just giving them enough move to do it themselves.
I feel the way to fix armors is to bring back rescue mechanics and good varied map design. Armors tend to suck on seize or route because they have poor move and typically don't one round.
Ironically, Geneology actually makes armors pretty strong in terms of combat, it's just that Arden trying to trek across the map is like a square peg and a round hole (I gave him the Leg Ring to mitigate the problem, but he still was chasing abit without Canto + on him).
Not only did both Generals and Barons have good weapon variety and strong stats, Geneology gave the advanced class armors the class skill Great Shield, meaning even with effective damage or magic, there's a percent chance it's not gonna hurt them, maximizing their tank role. They make for actually tough bosses sitting on their castles, because they don't need to worry about going anywhere. Were there more instances where reinforcements could spawn near the castle besides Ch 2, Arden would have a legitimate niche in the game.
Personally, I think they do need a class skill to parallel Canto for them to blossom. Wary Fighter or Great Shield could work, but an interesting idea would be a skill that buffs terrain bonuses on them. This would give them the role of moving from terrain to terrain, as well as make enemy armors effective through sitting on their thrones or fortresses.
I'm curious which class skill most people would prefer on them?
armor units should have been one of the types that benefitted the most heavily from the pair up mechanic due to it meaning you can launch them into the fray of combat on a flier and then have them do all the work. But the ability to grind levels in awakening and fates mixed with the fact that their stat caps weren't much of any better than other classes/any master seal class with capped stats basically doesn't have to worry about numbers anymore all lined up to make armor units just not have a reason to be kept around unless you liked that character specifically. I think rather than trying to give every map side objectives that are close enough for them to get to, it would likely be better to have maps entirely focused on different goals than just getting to the other side and killing the boss so that different unit types are simply able to help more or less to increase diversity over the entire game rather than trying to force it on every map. Like, for maps that encourage armors, what if you are given a large fort with multiple choke points in every direction that you need to defend the throne instead of take the throne, so you have to decide which choke points need a big beefy guard and which ones you're willing to risk squishier units fighting at because there are to many to simply plug all of them with an armor unit. They would also excel in a map that's indoors that might not even let you use your cavalry or pegasi due to horses not fitting inside, so maybe those units are allowed but they have to dismount into infantry but suffer from their lower stats, while the close cramped quarters doesn't hinder an armor unit at all. Open maps already encourage the high movement units so there's no need to change anything to help them. Infantry already benefits from having most of the main lords and thus being kinda necessary while also in modern games atleast kinda just being the starter class until you can class up into something more specialized and thus more useful, so it's more a stepping stone now with a few strong but niche classes like Gremory or dancer sticking out.
Roger in FE1 has been a consistently good unit who decimated the wyvern reinforcements on Maria and Minerva’s joining map. Tanking and dodging hits time and time again. I tried getting Draug up to speed but he kept getting really unlucky with level ups and wasn’t able to use silver lances.
Honestly, starting game armor knights should have the minimum rank for 1 to 2 range weapons with sizeable bulk. Also, a potential savior skill through supports to take hits in place of other units would be a boon and promote unit synergy.
I am a huge Oswin fan and Gilliam fan. Sometimes it's fun to just choke chip and funnel enemies with the heavy boys.
I think they either need more str skill and hp if they are class locked.
I kind of do not like the recent second seal to whatever class you want because everyone is gunna make magic or flier sweeper teams and it gets rid of what makes armors so cool.
Low movement equals less opportunity to get exp which just just makes the high defense useless same with low damage especially with mages around
Meanwhile calviery units are more balanced but give so much movement plus canter in the games. By the time the armor unit makes it to the end of the map they are obsolete
I think knights tend to not get exp because they are bad statswise more often than because their movement prevents them from seeing combat. Effie doesn't have too hard a time getting exp in conquest because you actually really benefit from her combat, Wolf and Sedgar are the same in Shadow Dragon, and louis does well in Engage for the same reason. When Louis does fall off, it's not primarily because of his movement or a lack of exp, it's because his combat stops being impressive.
When there are strong enemies, and armors have good stats, low move doesn't stop them from getting exp imo. Knights usually struggle to get exp in games where their combat isn't good, or where enemies are so weak that you just don't need a bulkier unit.
Exception for Arden. He just doesn't get to do anything even if he were really good.
@@actuallizard yeah Effie and Louise have the benefits of being early and making their high def a benefit to tank attacks
Louise a bit more as playing your cards right he can be your mvp for the first maps and falls off fast after that with yunaka and co with dodge meta.
Only time I do find the armor unit useful is when I make the main like byleth be armor as the boost with boosts give him a huge help in movement.
Honestly I think that armor move should work like Hector's move does, that way they keep the identity while still having a buff in the early game. "5 mov at the start, doesn't gain any move afterwards."
Idk there are definitely some maps in 8 where i was happy to have a leveled up armor knight. It may be unnecessary, but at the same time it also kinda feels more comfortable to know that you have this gigantic wall to rely on.
I would consider taking armor if they can move further without attacking as a balance mechanic.
Having a chokepoint counter machine sounds like a nice tactical niche to have.
I find Armor Knight usefulness is directly connected to what difficulty you play on.
Normal - Go for it. Good at baiting enemies, and can eat huge amounts of damage at chokepoints. Even Barth can be pretty dang useful in FE6 on normal.
Hard - Little bit riskier, need to often be shown favouritism to be able to function, depending on the game of course. I remember Bors in FE6 in particular being damn near useless if his early levels get defense-screwed on level ups.
Lunatic / Insane or higher - Lol. Lmao.
Did I play PoR/RD wrong or was Gatrie an absolute nuke? I (mis?)remember clearing a lot of the late game by just throwing Ike + Gatrie at the problem
He definitely was. Only Lance wielder that holds up whole game in dismantling (until those colored wisps show up)
personally, and one of the 2 examples im gonna give isnt an Armor Knight, but I consider him one cause Feh keeps giving him Armor Alts, and thats Ephraim, in my first playthrough of sacred stones, I just gave him the Javalin on his intro chapter and watched in Awe as he solod the entier map on his lone some while either, dodging everything or taking 0 damage. Tho I think in game hes more compable to a Great Knight, but Great Knights are intended to be the inbetween of Generals and Paladins, so I think its fine. As for the 2nd Armor that I love that would be the Black Knight in FE10, for a boss unit you get to mess around with here and there across the story, hes always great at maintaining choke points and helping out your army where its nessesary, and considering the extremely piss pour amount of opportunities the Dawn Brigade even gets, you get what you can get with them to. Shame I cant extend my praise to the intended Sword General of the game which is Meg, while ive used her before she, more often then not struggles unless ur pumping her full of BEXP