The chaotic evil solution to hidden desert items is to force everyone on equal footing by generating randomly the loot from a table, and setting the event tiles on random coordinates.
I think a neat way to handle the hidden items is have the wind uncover them on specific turns and then it make them only available for a handful of turns before they are permanently gone. That gives them time sensitivity and allows you to actually see where they are. Although I guess at that point they're not hidden anymore
You could even have rogues going to swipe one or 2 and run away, giving even more complexity. Imagine having to kill the rogue by turn 4, and collect the item by turn 6 or it'll sink, while it's surrounded by units on every side who have been the "Dig team"
The answer for items is either 100% drops or making it really obvious where the items are in pre map dialogue. "The Soldiers are digging/searching for the relics" thus the player would know that the items are where the soldier units are standing. Maybe marking it with a digging tool or something too. That would integrate the story and the gameplay. What Engage did was good from a map standpoint but IDK if that should be it for the rest of the series. When it comes to movement, maybe it's that there are desert maps that need to have some regular movement tiles for infantry and mounted units to walk on.
I’m mixed since I really like the idea of the “end your turn here to lower or raise movement” terrain in engage even if the explanation for the ice one is actually absurd. I think it’s a lot more engaging than typical desert maps tend to be since you can actually plan around it a bit more. This could also be achieved through making desert tiles more spacious in general though. Future desert maps could also attempt to combine the two tiles esp since they have different terrain names. I do think side objectives were something engage needed a lot more of. Frankly, that’s where recruitable characters can come in as well. Have maps where you need to go save X unit before they die or you have to recruit this character before they leave the map, etc. I would really like to see future games experiment more with the ice and quicksand tiles though. I think they’re sidelined a lot in engage but when you actually use them properly like in Tiki’s map they’re super fun to play around with. Preferably they can come up with a better explanation for more movement than uh. Ice being slippery. Though
Yeah engage def could have done with more/better side objectives. They get away with it a bit because they use reinforcements well, and often have multiple bosses, but the side objectives aren't great overall.
Units having "Luck" used to trigger a line of dialogue of "Whats that shiny thing in the sand?" would be a great way to allow the stats play a role in finding hidden items. It would be like "Spawning chests" if you can now see a little sparkle for ending your turn near one such item.
There is a much more simple solution. Have Anna's secret shop on desert maps. In her shop, players can buy a treasure map that shows the location of hidden items in the sand. The map does not say what items are buried and items will only appear if the map is in a unit's inventory.
I don't really like the Sacred Stones desert map at all personally, though I've only played the Eirika mode version. For one, the game, from what I remember, does not sufficiently warn you of the insane amount of reinforcements from the south west, meaning that you REALLY have to get a move on if you don't want Knoll to just be completely surrounded. Beyond that, it's a tedious rout map with a bunch of enemies and reinforcements from every side, the definition of a slog. And the victory lap of grabbing items with thieves is rather tedious as well. Two examples that I would give for well designed desert maps are from Awakening of all games, specifically chapters 8 and 9 (The Nowi Gregor and Tharja Libra chapters). In both of these maps, you barely have to touch the desert terrain at all, as there are regular plain tiles that you can use to move around. Then from there, you get attacked from enemies on the sand tiles meaning that you have to capitalize off their reduced movement. In chapter 8 you have to get villages in the desert, which means you'll have to get past these enemies, but even then there is few enough things to get there that you can use fliers or mages to do it. Meanwhile, your main force pushes hard south to rescue Nowi and Gregor who are immediately surrounded by enemies, but can barely outrun them because those enemies are slowed by the desert. This map manages to build tension and have side objectives without ever feeling too tedious, since it is also a defeat boss map. In the case of chapter 9, it starts out similarly: Plain tiles for you to walk on, enemies in the desert, an ally unit down south you have to help quickly. The difference now is that the pathway of plain tiles is very narrow, so it's in your best interest to only park units there that are hindered by the desert. There is also some Wyvern reinforcements from the back, completely flipping the switch on you. Now YOU are on your back foot and have to deal with enemies that can out maneuver you. Again, there's an incentive to move forward quickly in Libra's recruitment. That way, the reinforcements from the back can't ambush and kill you while still providing tension and multiple points of conflict, all while continually reframing how you think about the limiting terrain. I know I made those maps sound a lot more special than they really are, but I just wanted to point out how surprised I always am by them. Awakening generally has rather mediocre map design, but it nailed the desert maps of all things.
This is perfect timing because I was just thinking about this map for the Oops All Archers LTC. I'm kinda ignoring the desert aspect though by deliberately going and editing the desert item events to guarantee that I just get given the item for anyone who ends their turn there. Alternatively, I could give everyone 99 Lck because that guarantees desert item pickup. Also...I have four guaranteed Luna crit fliers lmfao
I think one of the most underrated desert maps (probably because nobody plays this game) is Chapter 8 of Fates Birthright. It starts off as pretty much all desert but you can form a path to the boss with dragon veins but your dragon vein users are limited to just your lord, a healer and a dancer, the latter two are risky to extend out for the veins when you also creat normal ground for enemies to attack. You only have one mediocre flier but you also can recruit your best flier that map with dragon vein access once you make it to them. I think it works really well at least in the no surprise item aspect of deserts.
@@seymourflux747 Birthright only has 13 chapters because of Ryoma. I flat out don't use him since 9 times out of 10 I'm playing Prisoner Runs in that route to make it fun.
The biggest issue is when FE players assume the game needs you to have desert items when you really don't. The same thing applies to Genealogy where everyone says they can't play it since they 'need' a guide even though it's one the easier FE games even if you don't see any hidden events (like me)
I liked how Radiant Dawn did it: put it late. On your first playthrough it surprises you and you have to deal but on subsequent playthroughs you just load the Silver and Hawk Army up with your fliers to deal with their terrain intensive maps. This would you allow you to have lots of strong fliers or positioning staves to mitigate the annoyance of the desert.
I think the idea of theieves collecting items on hidden tiles is a lot better than you thought. Aside from providing hints of course. The thing about thieves is they create a low pressure to get to the chest because even if they reach the chest, they still have to escape. Once they have stolen the item, things turn urgent. You have to shift your priority to catching or trapping and killing the thief if want the item. If multiple thieves are robbing simultaneously or in succession and you also have advancing enemies, things can get wild and exciting fast. That creates engaging, dynamic gameplay. A well placed and timed thief is always exciting. This would also solve the problem of the items being on random unmarked tiles, because you are eventually telling the player where they are so if they die/restart or replay they can go after the item before the thieves come next time.
I agree with all your points, I've been tinkering with FE8 maps for a minute and I have some finding about the desert map. 1) Kill Boss Objective. The way the objectve is coded, Im pretty sure that command doesnt work properly with two bosses on a map. When I was trying this exact objective change, the map would end after I kill Valter. 2) Making the bosses move. So with the way movement AI is coded for stationary bosses - where you cant see their full range - you cant change that AI mid chapter. You CAN use the normal non-boss "Do not move." AI command, but then you'll always be able to see their range. Other modders have also gotten around this by erasing the boss and respawning them with new AI (_"Nothing person kid..."_) 3) Another solution. My personal solution to all these Objective design issues and technical limits is to - On turn 15 or so; Spawn Green reinforcements from Carcino that are strong enough to kill Caellach. As much as I wanna have Caellach moved, I also realized it would be a special kind of hell to spend like an hour on a chapter for Caellach to move and kill a unit. This way the player still loses on Caellachs droppable and the EXP, but isnt prompted to restart because they lost a unit.
An idea: A desert map where the winds are strong, and the gimmick is the sands are shifting. Every turn the sand piles (mountains/forests) get shifted a few tiles in various directions. Items are only revealed when their sand dune is blown away, but if they get covered again they get lost forever.
Desert maps: Slow and uninteresting Dessert maps: Fresh and Tasty! Also, one other thing about desert maps: Sometimes the desert itself is unclear. This is pretty much just 3 Houses, but there's dirt and then there's sand, and some of the tiles look nearly identical. There's even a fake "path" that looks like the hard surface but isn't. This is just a 3H issue, there's also wasteland tiles that look like regular plains and vis-versa, and it's a crapshoot is terrain is passable by fliers or completely impassable. What do you mean i can't fly over this small urn?
As the world's biggest (only?) Arcadia enjoyer, I feel like FE6 Ch 14 addresses some of these, mainly the urgency. Arcadia is essentially a double escort mission (Roy to the throne and Sophia to the Guiding Ring), where there's both a hard time limit (the gaiden chapter) and soft limit (huge horde of bandit reinforcements). There are lots of extra factors like status staves, Fog of War, Sophia being terrible, etc, which I understand can be stressful, but add to the excitement of the map IMO. In terms of sand, you start completely surrounded, but around halfway through you can make it to the oasis part where your foot units can help fight the mercenaries and the boss. For the hidden items, the time pressure can make getting them tricky, but the game provides multiple thieves and fliers by this point, so I think it's a fun challenge to ferry them around. (To be fair, the items do have the "need a guide" problem). Also, the fact that you want to get the silver card then use it on the same map to stock up on rare tomes is a neat side-side objective. Basically, I think there are just so many things going on with this map that make it intense from start to finish. I think the fog is probably the worst part, but you are already encouraged to bring thieves, and the most threatening enemies, the Manaketes, have terrible movement in the desert. It is admittedly annoying to get ambushed by Wyvern Lords though.
You forgot the fact that Cecilia is force deployed on this map. It's far more annoying lugging her dead weight around than it is escorting Sophia, to the point where I play romhacks that move her join time to chapter 15 instead.
I remember the desert in path of radiance being even more of a chore because laguz units also don't suffer the speed penalty, and the enemy force is composed almost entirely of laguz. It also let them retreat to wait out their form change downside, because you wouldn't be able to chase them down before they became dangerous again. Also, the recruitable character in the desert is only recruitable by two specific characters, so you might not even manage to figure out who before the map ends. Also also, the only S-rank sword in the game is hidden treasure on the map.
I wish the games would have implemented movement penalties that correspond to the unit types better. Myrms and mercs having the same movement restriction makes no sense w/ one being designed w/ less armor and therefore more speed. It would give utility to the units that need it the most like thieves and myrms.
oh, I didn't know about the hidden items being only a chance to find. that's awful FE7 has its only Ocean Seal hidden in its desert map, that's Dart's only option for a promotion item and he's quite strong
To me the best hidden desert object they've made is probably the guiding ring that only Sophia can get. As terrible as fe6 desert map is, rewarding players who got her all the way to the end of the map is pretty neat
while we're on the topic of desert maps, i dont think fe6 ch14 is that bad. the enemies are positioned in a way that you dont really get fucked over as long as you use torches and don't overextend, in my experience at least. yeah fog of war+desert tiles is slow BUT i think it does a good job of capturing the feeling of fear that most fog of war maps should have imo. also once you get near the seize point, the desert tiles are gone, and there's a palpable feeling of relief that i think makes the previous trudge worth it. i wont really defend the hidden items tho, im pretty ambivalent on them
I think FoW is absolutely incapable of creating fear, because all that it creates is an absolute aura of annoyance, that's why Arcadia is so bad, it's annoying over detestable
@@marcoasturias8520 a lot of fog of war maps are def pretty annoying, but I think that's more a fault of the map design than the mechanic itself. personally I think the combination of fog, desert as well as the side objective of protecting Sophia does a good job of creating a sense of fear, but it might just come down to personal preference
I would honestly be curious to see a video like this on fog of war maps. I hate fog and I know many other people do as well, so I would like to hear what fog maps you think are good or how they could be improved.
One is when you walk into an enemy or stop next to one allow you to still attack, but halve your speed because your character wasn't prepared. Maybe also allow your mages to sacrifice uses of their (fire/wind/light) magic to clear an AOE of fog around the tile they target.
The quicksand tiles suck. It makes movement inconsistent and unpredictable as they're only relevant if you end inside them. It's especially annoying because the enemy doesn't play around them. Resulting in very inconsistent movement where it sometimes puts all its troops in quicksand, and sometimes completely avoids it.
My favourite desert map is the Desert Fortress from echoes chapter 3 Celica's route. trying to get into the fortress filled with snipers was so challenging and it made it feel like the terrain was on the enemy's side in a believable and interesting way.
Hm I think it would be cool if desert items were hidden until you moved a unit like 5 tiles within them and then you could see like a mount or something on the map. In that case it’s like a hidden chest but you still get the excitement of randomly stumbling into them. And then of course you cna out them where you know players will want to be or have the lord or something say “I think that’s all the treasure around” when you’ve picked it all so players will not check every tule on a blind playthrough
I always wanted to create a desert unit that was a camel rider. An 8 move unit that still picks up terrain bonuses and is unaffected by sand would be cool. It would also be good to turn a desert map into an escape map. There is a main road that you could stick to, but is trapped/ heavily defended or you could swing out into the desert, stopping at ruins to look for treasures and maybe luring enemies into the sand and hurting their movement.
Possible solution for treasure tiles: guest npc archeologist who is wandering the map. talk to him and he will give you a rough direction (i.e. to the northeast) to some loot. he can be attacked by hostile thieves and brigands, so he has to be protected.
I like the thief option. The thieves could run towards the treasure, which also serves as a hint for the player. It'd also be cool to add vehicles of some sort. Maybe there would be some rental pegasi to help cross some points for a nominal toll. There could be a nomadic merchant who ferries a unit while ending that turn.
For desert maps, I don't think movement should be affected...for the most part. I do think there should be areas of the map that have desert storms that prevent flyers from crossing but land units can cross. On top of that, I think that Desert maps should slowly reduce units HP, unless they stand on a fort, building or stand need an oasis. The idea being that the hot weather impacts units health.
Any map comprised of mostly slow terrain will be shit. For whatever reason they know they shouldn't make maps of 90% forest, most of the of time, but with desert, fuck, they feel hard pressed to use the tile
Time limit the items but make them visible for the last couple of turns they are available. Time limits them, gives players the location without outside reference, and still lets them be hidden for most of the fight.
I'm conflicted on this idea... its novel and gives desert maps a new distinct mechanic, but it'd also stink if the item appears and disappears before you have a chance to claim it.
The changes you describe for the desert map in Engage is pretty much just the swamp maps in FE10. FE10 in general has fantastic design for creating interesting gameplay for infantry units... Only at the expense of cavalry: several maps have terrain preventing cavalry from progressing AT ALL. This is compounded by cavalry having pitifully low stat caps in general in that game as well. Of course, when you have flying units, that all goes out the window anyway, but the early game does a decent job of limiting your access to them. Also, if we want to have hidden items, we could implement some kind of hot/cold mechanic. When a thief, for example, ends its turn on a desert map, and is within, lets say 3 tiles of a hidden item, he'll have some kind of indicator appear above his head. This indicator could change color or grow more prominent as he gets closer to the tile with the item. I would also just remove the random chance entirely. I really don't think the chance in particular presents anything worth keeping in any way whatsoever.
00:00 - 00:07 "Desert maps are some of the least popular maps in Fire Emblem, despite there being at least one in most Fire Emblem games." I would assert that this is not *despite* their presence in most games, but *because* of it.
Give animal units (cav, pegasus, wyvern) a hidden 'scent' function. They will sniff out treasure within a 3 or 4 tile radius, revealing it. You would still need the luck roll or a thief to actually acquire it. You could always have a character hint at this functionality in dialogue.
I have had this idea for a long time and now is the time to share it! It not exclusive to desert maps, but I think Flyers should have special airborn terrain like turbulance or heavy winds that effect there movement in specific maps. So hear me out. You mentioned the quicksand limiting foot unit movement but what if there was also small sand storms, that did the same thing but to flyers instead. These air based terrains could be placed in different locations compared to ground terrain allowing certain parts of the map to be tough for fliers, but other parts be tough for non fliers. I think bad air terrain in genral is a much needed nerf to fliers that doesnt actively destroy there strategic utility. Its much better then invisible no fly tiles from Geneology.
What about having the hidden items be revealed after a certain amount of turns? A wind sweeping over the desert animation plays and a tile or two sparkles for a moment, indicating that there's something special going on over there. Either all the hidden items get revealed at once or one/two at a time, but they can still be obtained sooner if you already know where to go.
Personally in sacred stones, the desert map was my favorite map, for it forced you the player to use units that you might not be using that much, it forced you to change your strats abit.
Tbh I love the idea of desert maps nerfing Calvary and buffing mages, however, this has the unfortunate drawback of making flyers even better and physical grounded units worse. I absolutely love the idea of a map which changes up the balance and which units are valuable. I just wish this effected flyers (tho I can’t find a Watsonian reason why it wouldn’t). The best way I think a full desert map would work is as an early game map with little access to flyers. Especially if it’s the first map where you can’t really rely on christmas cavs or jaegen
I keep meaning to try and get into FE as I'm generally into everything about it, but my most recent attempt died at Living Legend in 7. Granted, part of this is about trying to unlock 22x too, but juggling having to go very fast to avoid Pent stealing all the XP with the fact that most of the army is borderline useless just feels like torture, and this isn't even supposed to be hard.
Quicksand seems like a good idea if the quicksand tiles move around every couple turns, like they could say the desert wind is moving them or something
as much as FE6's desert map is a hot mess, i do like that it has a turn limit for the legendary weapon. If you want to get the items and still get the true ending, you have to haul ass. Though the turn count is rather generous at 25. then again, it has all the typical problems. It's slow, even if that slowness needs to be specifically counteracted for the true end, the desert items are way too good to miss out on (my first playthrough had no warp. ch22 wasn't fun), AND there's fog of war. Not even mentioning Sophia.... So it does suceed in balancing the objective against the optional items, but it fails in... everything else. Fun fun to think about.
You give Chapter 15 Sacred Stones a lot of flack for being Route instead of Kill Bosses, but TBH I don't know if they even programmed in "Kill Two Bosses" as an option in the game. No other map has two bosses at the same time iirc, and I don't know if IS could program that back in 2005.
Pretext: Comment was made BEFORE watching the video, but rest of video was watched after. If I have more to say or cover, it will be in a reply. I just like to give an unaltered opinion on topics like this for discussion purposes! If there's nothing else, I likely agree and believe everything in the video is good! I do a lot of studying FE map design for campaigns I run. Deserts have two fundamental flaws: 1. They forcibly slow progress in a decently balanced game, since Mages, Fliers, and Thieves should be your most fragile units, but are the only units unhindered and capable of reasonable movements. This leads to unnecessary tedium in the map since moving your more combat usable units is slow and often frustrating. 2. Hidden Items in Deserts are just not great ideas. These items are either worth the struggle, or they aren't. If they're worth it, then they add tedium, if they aren't then they add nothing to the map and either make a blind player scrounge about for nothing, or just become ignored by people who look it up. Combine this with more limited movement and suddenly the map just isn't fun. The other large issue is designing a Desert Map is really awkward. The best friend of FE maps is Ledges, Houses, and Enemy arrangements. In Deserts, due to the limited movement, these things have to be heavily reduced, absent, or become extremely frustrating to navigate around. The reason Chapter 15 of SS is so much better than most is because, realistically, there's not as much Desert as the game makes you believe, it's broken up by Forts, Trees, and Choke Points that allow you to more easily manipulate the aggressive enemy AI. The best way to do desert maps is to have less desert, and it's kinda sad. I think Engage's Quicksand was actually a really cool way of managing it, while making the map much more reasonable to play and still slowing the pace a bit in a tactical way.
I think it's a little unfair to consider Stefan easy to miss. There's an important base conversation that talks about a man hiding in the desert, and the area of the map he's in is fairly suspicious. Having to find just a single tile was a bit much though, I wish they had made it a slightly bigger area.
Slowing down movement is just boring and makes the game slow while you fight many flying units who don't have that weakness. I do like when mages get normal movement as it makes you want to balance your teams but it feels like a hard nerf for paladins and horse units just because
To be fair mounted units (especially paladins) are generally the best units in the series. All around amazing stats, dominate the weapon triangle, biggest movement, high AID as well as usually great constitution, and usually easiest promo item to obtain. They are massively overpowered.
@@remmyswifthands8879 yeah but this isn't much for a balance as warp and such exists and you'll lose your mage units who have low to no defenses so them being in front will just lead to easy loss if you get surrounded. Fliers would be best if not for so many archers being able to one shot
I just dislike that you're reliant on Thieves/Rogues for the loot drop or else pray on a skill%/luck% chance. Maybe bump the probability to skill/luck% × 2 or a flat 1 in 3/1 in 4 chance. I find it better if its a 100% through all units but its exclusive on a 2×2 specific tile (like the Stefan recruitment), I think thats incredibly unfriendly to newer players without a guide but promotes strategy rather than blind luck reliance to those who know where to get them. FE6's Arcadia is honestly the biggest offender to me, just because they decided to add Bandit enemies/Beserker bosses for literally zero reason but to hinder progress and the fact that FE6 Thieves are notoriously bad, the time limit not helping.
Great video, it's great to have more discussion on such a contentious map type. Those who enjoy Arcadia have SINNED it's such a paragon of poor design imo with all the frustrating mechanics available
The chaotic evil solution to hidden desert items is to force everyone on equal footing by generating randomly the loot from a table, and setting the event tiles on random coordinates.
Lmao that is the chaotic evil solution
That's so evil....I kinda love it
The Feebas Formula
Please don't add the timer objective like in fe6, it would be terrible.
@@kimitohanahala8674 what if i just wait past 25 turns because i despise 14x with every fiber of my being
I dislike desert maps because I'm the reincarnation of Anakin Skywalker
good to know that anakin finally gets to be a lesbian
Anakin Desertwalker
Fair
I think a neat way to handle the hidden items is have the wind uncover them on specific turns and then it make them only available for a handful of turns before they are permanently gone. That gives them time sensitivity and allows you to actually see where they are. Although I guess at that point they're not hidden anymore
That is a cool idea and I think it would be unique in the series so they wouldn't feel just like chests
You could even have rogues going to swipe one or 2 and run away, giving even more complexity. Imagine having to kill the rogue by turn 4, and collect the item by turn 6 or it'll sink, while it's surrounded by units on every side who have been the "Dig team"
The answer for items is either 100% drops or making it really obvious where the items are in pre map dialogue. "The Soldiers are digging/searching for the relics" thus the player would know that the items are where the soldier units are standing. Maybe marking it with a digging tool or something too. That would integrate the story and the gameplay. What Engage did was good from a map standpoint but IDK if that should be it for the rest of the series.
When it comes to movement, maybe it's that there are desert maps that need to have some regular movement tiles for infantry and mounted units to walk on.
Maybe in the future they could have stormy weather like blizzards or thunderstorms reduce flyer movement
I’m mixed since I really like the idea of the “end your turn here to lower or raise movement” terrain in engage even if the explanation for the ice one is actually absurd. I think it’s a lot more engaging than typical desert maps tend to be since you can actually plan around it a bit more. This could also be achieved through making desert tiles more spacious in general though. Future desert maps could also attempt to combine the two tiles esp since they have different terrain names. I do think side objectives were something engage needed a lot more of. Frankly, that’s where recruitable characters can come in as well. Have maps where you need to go save X unit before they die or you have to recruit this character before they leave the map, etc.
I would really like to see future games experiment more with the ice and quicksand tiles though. I think they’re sidelined a lot in engage but when you actually use them properly like in Tiki’s map they’re super fun to play around with. Preferably they can come up with a better explanation for more movement than uh. Ice being slippery. Though
Yeah engage def could have done with more/better side objectives. They get away with it a bit because they use reinforcements well, and often have multiple bosses, but the side objectives aren't great overall.
I had so much fun with them in Tiki’s map! Sigurd Ring on Alfred and the ice gave him extra Engage Zoomies.
Units having "Luck" used to trigger a line of dialogue of "Whats that shiny thing in the sand?" would be a great way to allow the stats play a role in finding hidden items. It would be like "Spawning chests" if you can now see a little sparkle for ending your turn near one such item.
Luck already plays a part at least in GBA where it's the literal chance of getting the item when ending move on one of its potential tiles
@@remmyswifthands8879 please read again what i want luck to do instead. Thanks!
There is a much more simple solution. Have Anna's secret shop on desert maps. In her shop, players can buy a treasure map that shows the location of hidden items in the sand. The map does not say what items are buried and items will only appear if the map is in a unit's inventory.
How will people know that there is a secret shop?
@@shellpoptheepicswordmaster755 I suppose we can have an npc mention Anna's shop in a village.
@armorbearer9702 then you give some tile distinction, maybe in between several forest tiles or something.
I don't really like the Sacred Stones desert map at all personally, though I've only played the Eirika mode version.
For one, the game, from what I remember, does not sufficiently warn you of the insane amount of reinforcements from the south west, meaning that you REALLY have to get a move on if you don't want Knoll to just be completely surrounded.
Beyond that, it's a tedious rout map with a bunch of enemies and reinforcements from every side, the definition of a slog. And the victory lap of grabbing items with thieves is rather tedious as well.
Two examples that I would give for well designed desert maps are from Awakening of all games, specifically chapters 8 and 9 (The Nowi Gregor and Tharja Libra chapters).
In both of these maps, you barely have to touch the desert terrain at all, as there are regular plain tiles that you can use to move around. Then from there, you get attacked from enemies on the sand tiles meaning that you have to capitalize off their reduced movement. In chapter 8 you have to get villages in the desert, which means you'll have to get past these enemies, but even then there is few enough things to get there that you can use fliers or mages to do it. Meanwhile, your main force pushes hard south to rescue Nowi and Gregor who are immediately surrounded by enemies, but can barely outrun them because those enemies are slowed by the desert. This map manages to build tension and have side objectives without ever feeling too tedious, since it is also a defeat boss map.
In the case of chapter 9, it starts out similarly: Plain tiles for you to walk on, enemies in the desert, an ally unit down south you have to help quickly. The difference now is that the pathway of plain tiles is very narrow, so it's in your best interest to only park units there that are hindered by the desert. There is also some Wyvern reinforcements from the back, completely flipping the switch on you. Now YOU are on your back foot and have to deal with enemies that can out maneuver you. Again, there's an incentive to move forward quickly in Libra's recruitment. That way, the reinforcements from the back can't ambush and kill you while still providing tension and multiple points of conflict, all while continually reframing how you think about the limiting terrain.
I know I made those maps sound a lot more special than they really are, but I just wanted to point out how surprised I always am by them. Awakening generally has rather mediocre map design, but it nailed the desert maps of all things.
This is perfect timing because I was just thinking about this map for the Oops All Archers LTC. I'm kinda ignoring the desert aspect though by deliberately going and editing the desert item events to guarantee that I just get given the item for anyone who ends their turn there. Alternatively, I could give everyone 99 Lck because that guarantees desert item pickup. Also...I have four guaranteed Luna crit fliers lmfao
I think one of the most underrated desert maps (probably because nobody plays this game) is Chapter 8 of Fates Birthright. It starts off as pretty much all desert but you can form a path to the boss with dragon veins but your dragon vein users are limited to just your lord, a healer and a dancer, the latter two are risky to extend out for the veins when you also creat normal ground for enemies to attack. You only have one mediocre flier but you also can recruit your best flier that map with dragon vein access once you make it to them. I think it works really well at least in the no surprise item aspect of deserts.
First half of Birthright is underrated in general imho. I had a fair bit of fun before Ryoma walked in and enemy spam was more common
@@seymourflux747 Birthright only has 13 chapters because of Ryoma. I flat out don't use him since 9 times out of 10 I'm playing Prisoner Runs in that route to make it fun.
The biggest issue is when FE players assume the game needs you to have desert items when you really don't. The same thing applies to Genealogy where everyone says they can't play it since they 'need' a guide even though it's one the easier FE games even if you don't see any hidden events (like me)
I liked how Radiant Dawn did it: put it late. On your first playthrough it surprises you and you have to deal but on subsequent playthroughs you just load the Silver and Hawk Army up with your fliers to deal with their terrain intensive maps. This would you allow you to have lots of strong fliers or positioning staves to mitigate the annoyance of the desert.
now we need a video on Water Temple maps.
9:37 - Every perfectionist who ever played Radiant Dawn just had a PTSD triggered war flashback XD
I think the idea of theieves collecting items on hidden tiles is a lot better than you thought. Aside from providing hints of course.
The thing about thieves is they create a low pressure to get to the chest because even if they reach the chest, they still have to escape. Once they have stolen the item, things turn urgent. You have to shift your priority to catching or trapping and killing the thief if want the item. If multiple thieves are robbing simultaneously or in succession and you also have advancing enemies, things can get wild and exciting fast. That creates engaging, dynamic gameplay. A well placed and timed thief is always exciting.
This would also solve the problem of the items being on random unmarked tiles, because you are eventually telling the player where they are so if they die/restart or replay they can go after the item before the thieves come next time.
I agree with all your points, I've been tinkering with FE8 maps for a minute and I have some finding about the desert map.
1) Kill Boss Objective.
The way the objectve is coded, Im pretty sure that command doesnt work properly with two bosses on a map. When I was trying this exact objective change, the map would end after I kill Valter.
2) Making the bosses move.
So with the way movement AI is coded for stationary bosses - where you cant see their full range - you cant change that AI mid chapter.
You CAN use the normal non-boss "Do not move." AI command, but then you'll always be able to see their range.
Other modders have also gotten around this by erasing the boss and respawning them with new AI (_"Nothing person kid..."_)
3) Another solution.
My personal solution to all these Objective design issues and technical limits is to
- On turn 15 or so; Spawn Green reinforcements from Carcino that are strong enough to kill Caellach.
As much as I wanna have Caellach moved, I also realized it would be a special kind of hell to spend like an hour on a chapter for Caellach to move and kill a unit.
This way the player still loses on Caellachs droppable and the EXP, but isnt prompted to restart because they lost a unit.
An idea: A desert map where the winds are strong, and the gimmick is the sands are shifting. Every turn the sand piles (mountains/forests) get shifted a few tiles in various directions. Items are only revealed when their sand dune is blown away, but if they get covered again they get lost forever.
Desert maps: Slow and uninteresting
Dessert maps: Fresh and Tasty!
Also, one other thing about desert maps: Sometimes the desert itself is unclear. This is pretty much just 3 Houses, but there's dirt and then there's sand, and some of the tiles look nearly identical. There's even a fake "path" that looks like the hard surface but isn't. This is just a 3H issue, there's also wasteland tiles that look like regular plains and vis-versa, and it's a crapshoot is terrain is passable by fliers or completely impassable. What do you mean i can't fly over this small urn?
Man these videos are always like a sweet little treat showing up in the fridge or something.
Thanks for saying that, I love my little treats so that's really nice to hear ♥️
As the world's biggest (only?) Arcadia enjoyer, I feel like FE6 Ch 14 addresses some of these, mainly the urgency. Arcadia is essentially a double escort mission (Roy to the throne and Sophia to the Guiding Ring), where there's both a hard time limit (the gaiden chapter) and soft limit (huge horde of bandit reinforcements). There are lots of extra factors like status staves, Fog of War, Sophia being terrible, etc, which I understand can be stressful, but add to the excitement of the map IMO. In terms of sand, you start completely surrounded, but around halfway through you can make it to the oasis part where your foot units can help fight the mercenaries and the boss.
For the hidden items, the time pressure can make getting them tricky, but the game provides multiple thieves and fliers by this point, so I think it's a fun challenge to ferry them around. (To be fair, the items do have the "need a guide" problem). Also, the fact that you want to get the silver card then use it on the same map to stock up on rare tomes is a neat side-side objective.
Basically, I think there are just so many things going on with this map that make it intense from start to finish. I think the fog is probably the worst part, but you are already encouraged to bring thieves, and the most threatening enemies, the Manaketes, have terrible movement in the desert. It is admittedly annoying to get ambushed by Wyvern Lords though.
You forgot the fact that Cecilia is force deployed on this map. It's far more annoying lugging her dead weight around than it is escorting Sophia, to the point where I play romhacks that move her join time to chapter 15 instead.
I remember the desert in path of radiance being even more of a chore because laguz units also don't suffer the speed penalty, and the enemy force is composed almost entirely of laguz. It also let them retreat to wait out their form change downside, because you wouldn't be able to chase them down before they became dangerous again. Also, the recruitable character in the desert is only recruitable by two specific characters, so you might not even manage to figure out who before the map ends. Also also, the only S-rank sword in the game is hidden treasure on the map.
I wish the games would have implemented movement penalties that correspond to the unit types better. Myrms and mercs having the same movement restriction makes no sense w/ one being designed w/ less armor and therefore more speed. It would give utility to the units that need it the most like thieves and myrms.
oh, I didn't know about the hidden items being only a chance to find. that's awful
FE7 has its only Ocean Seal hidden in its desert map, that's Dart's only option for a promotion item and he's quite strong
To me the best hidden desert object they've made is probably the guiding ring that only Sophia can get. As terrible as fe6 desert map is, rewarding players who got her all the way to the end of the map is pretty neat
while we're on the topic of desert maps, i dont think fe6 ch14 is that bad. the enemies are positioned in a way that you dont really get fucked over as long as you use torches and don't overextend, in my experience at least. yeah fog of war+desert tiles is slow BUT i think it does a good job of capturing the feeling of fear that most fog of war maps should have imo. also once you get near the seize point, the desert tiles are gone, and there's a palpable feeling of relief that i think makes the previous trudge worth it. i wont really defend the hidden items tho, im pretty ambivalent on them
I think FoW is absolutely incapable of creating fear, because all that it creates is an absolute aura of annoyance, that's why Arcadia is so bad, it's annoying over detestable
@@marcoasturias8520 a lot of fog of war maps are def pretty annoying, but I think that's more a fault of the map design than the mechanic itself. personally I think the combination of fog, desert as well as the side objective of protecting Sophia does a good job of creating a sense of fear, but it might just come down to personal preference
i just wanna say you have a very nice voice that is pleasing to listen to (i hope that doesnt sound too weird lol)
I would honestly be curious to see a video like this on fog of war maps.
I hate fog and I know many other people do as well, so I would like to hear what fog maps you think are good or how they could be improved.
One is when you walk into an enemy or stop next to one allow you to still attack, but halve your speed because your character wasn't prepared.
Maybe also allow your mages to sacrifice uses of their (fire/wind/light) magic to clear an AOE of fog around the tile they target.
I just wish the beacons in Engage had more range than the player units' visibility. They's basically not even worth making the effort to light.
Scorching sand is such a dank map.
I unironically thought my game was broken when it took like 20 turns for ANY item on the FE3 book 2 desert map to get picked up
The quicksand tiles suck. It makes movement inconsistent and unpredictable as they're only relevant if you end inside them.
It's especially annoying because the enemy doesn't play around them. Resulting in very inconsistent movement where it sometimes puts all its troops in quicksand, and sometimes completely avoids it.
My favourite desert map is the Desert Fortress from echoes chapter 3 Celica's route. trying to get into the fortress filled with snipers was so challenging and it made it feel like the terrain was on the enemy's side in a believable and interesting way.
That map is the reason why I always go for the early Draco shield.
literally just desert items, imo
but we talked about that in-stream
Hm I think it would be cool if desert items were hidden until you moved a unit like 5 tiles within them and then you could see like a mount or something on the map. In that case it’s like a hidden chest but you still get the excitement of randomly stumbling into them. And then of course you cna out them where you know players will want to be or have the lord or something say “I think that’s all the treasure around” when you’ve picked it all so players will not check every tule on a blind playthrough
Oooh I like that idea! It makes desert items less annoying but they still feel special
I always wanted to create a desert unit that was a camel rider. An 8 move unit that still picks up terrain bonuses and is unaffected by sand would be cool. It would also be good to turn a desert map into an escape map. There is a main road that you could stick to, but is trapped/ heavily defended or you could swing out into the desert, stopping at ruins to look for treasures and maybe luring enemies into the sand and hurting their movement.
I'm pretty sure Sun God's Wrath has camel riders!
Possible solution for treasure tiles: guest npc archeologist who is wandering the map. talk to him and he will give you a rough direction (i.e. to the northeast) to some loot. he can be attacked by hostile thieves and brigands, so he has to be protected.
I like the thief option. The thieves could run towards the treasure, which also serves as a hint for the player.
It'd also be cool to add vehicles of some sort. Maybe there would be some rental pegasi to help cross some points for a nominal toll. There could be a nomadic merchant who ferries a unit while ending that turn.
For desert maps, I don't think movement should be affected...for the most part. I do think there should be areas of the map that have desert storms that prevent flyers from crossing but land units can cross. On top of that, I think that Desert maps should slowly reduce units HP, unless they stand on a fort, building or stand need an oasis. The idea being that the hot weather impacts units health.
Any map comprised of mostly slow terrain will be shit. For whatever reason they know they shouldn't make maps of 90% forest, most of the of time, but with desert, fuck, they feel hard pressed to use the tile
Time limit the items but make them visible for the last couple of turns they are available. Time limits them, gives players the location without outside reference, and still lets them be hidden for most of the fight.
I'm conflicted on this idea... its novel and gives desert maps a new distinct mechanic, but it'd also stink if the item appears and disappears before you have a chance to claim it.
The changes you describe for the desert map in Engage is pretty much just the swamp maps in FE10. FE10 in general has fantastic design for creating interesting gameplay for infantry units... Only at the expense of cavalry: several maps have terrain preventing cavalry from progressing AT ALL. This is compounded by cavalry having pitifully low stat caps in general in that game as well. Of course, when you have flying units, that all goes out the window anyway, but the early game does a decent job of limiting your access to them.
Also, if we want to have hidden items, we could implement some kind of hot/cold mechanic. When a thief, for example, ends its turn on a desert map, and is within, lets say 3 tiles of a hidden item, he'll have some kind of indicator appear above his head. This indicator could change color or grow more prominent as he gets closer to the tile with the item. I would also just remove the random chance entirely. I really don't think the chance in particular presents anything worth keeping in any way whatsoever.
00:00 - 00:07
"Desert maps are some of the least popular maps in Fire Emblem, despite there being at least one in most Fire Emblem games."
I would assert that this is not *despite* their presence in most games, but *because* of it.
Give animal units (cav, pegasus, wyvern) a hidden 'scent' function. They will sniff out treasure within a 3 or 4 tile radius, revealing it. You would still need the luck roll or a thief to actually acquire it. You could always have a character hint at this functionality in dialogue.
I have had this idea for a long time and now is the time to share it!
It not exclusive to desert maps, but I think Flyers should have special airborn terrain like turbulance or heavy winds that effect there movement in specific maps.
So hear me out. You mentioned the quicksand limiting foot unit movement but what if there was also small sand storms, that did the same thing but to flyers instead.
These air based terrains could be placed in different locations compared to ground terrain allowing certain parts of the map to be tough for fliers, but other parts be tough for non fliers.
I think bad air terrain in genral is a much needed nerf to fliers that doesnt actively destroy there strategic utility. Its much better then invisible no fly tiles from Geneology.
Man, I've played through several of the older FE games, and I had no idea desert items were even a thing.
What about having the hidden items be revealed after a certain amount of turns? A wind sweeping over the desert animation plays and a tile or two sparkles for a moment, indicating that there's something special going on over there. Either all the hidden items get revealed at once or one/two at a time, but they can still be obtained sooner if you already know where to go.
I like Engage's because you can have Ivy go ham on half the enemies
I like your Psyduck
i remember just randomly getting a warp staff in a desert map and getting extremely fucking confused.
Personally in sacred stones, the desert map was my favorite map, for it forced you the player to use units that you might not be using that much, it forced you to change your strats abit.
Tbh I love the idea of desert maps nerfing Calvary and buffing mages, however, this has the unfortunate drawback of making flyers even better and physical grounded units worse. I absolutely love the idea of a map which changes up the balance and which units are valuable. I just wish this effected flyers (tho I can’t find a Watsonian reason why it wouldn’t). The best way I think a full desert map would work is as an early game map with little access to flyers. Especially if it’s the first map where you can’t really rely on christmas cavs or jaegen
I keep meaning to try and get into FE as I'm generally into everything about it, but my most recent attempt died at Living Legend in 7. Granted, part of this is about trying to unlock 22x too, but juggling having to go very fast to avoid Pent stealing all the XP with the fact that most of the army is borderline useless just feels like torture, and this isn't even supposed to be hard.
Quicksand seems like a good idea if the quicksand tiles move around every couple turns, like they could say the desert wind is moving them or something
great video is it ok if I ask you a question
Sure, what's up?
@@actuallizard what your favorite fire emblem game in terms of story and gamplay
@@sueflewelling3657 hmm fe8 is probably my favorite overall and favorite story. Engage has my favorite gameplay i think
@@actuallizard personally three houses is favorite story and engaged is my favorite gamplay pa what do you think of edelgard as a character?
@@actuallizard exuse me did my comment came in
as much as FE6's desert map is a hot mess, i do like that it has a turn limit for the legendary weapon. If you want to get the items and still get the true ending, you have to haul ass. Though the turn count is rather generous at 25.
then again, it has all the typical problems. It's slow, even if that slowness needs to be specifically counteracted for the true end, the desert items are way too good to miss out on (my first playthrough had no warp. ch22 wasn't fun), AND there's fog of war. Not even mentioning Sophia....
So it does suceed in balancing the objective against the optional items, but it fails in... everything else. Fun fun to think about.
What about swamp maps (sudo desert maps)
Same, but with graveyard maps.
My hack would do a little graveyard robbery...
I usually pronounced K-lak’s name as “Call-A”. Strange, how so many options exist because his name is spelled funny
I'm one of the few players who likes Arcadia and doesn't like Scorched Sand. Keep in mind I've only ever played these games on normal mode
You give Chapter 15 Sacred Stones a lot of flack for being Route instead of Kill Bosses, but TBH I don't know if they even programmed in "Kill Two Bosses" as an option in the game. No other map has two bosses at the same time iirc, and I don't know if IS could program that back in 2005.
Armor knights should have eight movement in desert maps and the logic is they surf on their armor
Make all of the desert items obtainable on any desert tile.
Pretext: Comment was made BEFORE watching the video, but rest of video was watched after. If I have more to say or cover, it will be in a reply. I just like to give an unaltered opinion on topics like this for discussion purposes! If there's nothing else, I likely agree and believe everything in the video is good!
I do a lot of studying FE map design for campaigns I run. Deserts have two fundamental flaws: 1. They forcibly slow progress in a decently balanced game, since Mages, Fliers, and Thieves should be your most fragile units, but are the only units unhindered and capable of reasonable movements. This leads to unnecessary tedium in the map since moving your more combat usable units is slow and often frustrating. 2. Hidden Items in Deserts are just not great ideas. These items are either worth the struggle, or they aren't. If they're worth it, then they add tedium, if they aren't then they add nothing to the map and either make a blind player scrounge about for nothing, or just become ignored by people who look it up. Combine this with more limited movement and suddenly the map just isn't fun.
The other large issue is designing a Desert Map is really awkward. The best friend of FE maps is Ledges, Houses, and Enemy arrangements. In Deserts, due to the limited movement, these things have to be heavily reduced, absent, or become extremely frustrating to navigate around. The reason Chapter 15 of SS is so much better than most is because, realistically, there's not as much Desert as the game makes you believe, it's broken up by Forts, Trees, and Choke Points that allow you to more easily manipulate the aggressive enemy AI. The best way to do desert maps is to have less desert, and it's kinda sad. I think Engage's Quicksand was actually a really cool way of managing it, while making the map much more reasonable to play and still slowing the pace a bit in a tactical way.
I think it's a little unfair to consider Stefan easy to miss. There's an important base conversation that talks about a man hiding in the desert, and the area of the map he's in is fairly suspicious. Having to find just a single tile was a bit much though, I wish they had made it a slightly bigger area.
Dessert map in FE6 is very fun and actually greatly designed.
The only bad desert map is FE3 B2 ch 11. That map is a slog fest
Slowing down movement is just boring and makes the game slow while you fight many flying units who don't have that weakness.
I do like when mages get normal movement as it makes you want to balance your teams but it feels like a hard nerf for paladins and horse units just because
To be fair mounted units (especially paladins) are generally the best units in the series. All around amazing stats, dominate the weapon triangle, biggest movement, high AID as well as usually great constitution, and usually easiest promo item to obtain. They are massively overpowered.
@@remmyswifthands8879 yeah but this isn't much for a balance as warp and such exists and you'll lose your mage units who have low to no defenses so them being in front will just lead to easy loss if you get surrounded. Fliers would be best if not for so many archers being able to one shot
@@remmyswifthands8879based Thracia 776 forcing your mounted units off horses when the situation is logically appropriate
Desert maps suck but nothing is worse than boat maps
I just dislike that you're reliant on Thieves/Rogues for the loot drop or else pray on a skill%/luck% chance. Maybe bump the probability to skill/luck% × 2 or a flat 1 in 3/1 in 4 chance. I find it better if its a 100% through all units but its exclusive on a 2×2 specific tile (like the Stefan recruitment), I think thats incredibly unfriendly to newer players without a guide but promotes strategy rather than blind luck reliance to those who know where to get them. FE6's Arcadia is honestly the biggest offender to me, just because they decided to add Bandit enemies/Beserker bosses for literally zero reason but to hinder progress and the fact that FE6 Thieves are notoriously bad, the time limit not helping.
I hate sand
Great video, it's great to have more discussion on such a contentious map type. Those who enjoy Arcadia have SINNED it's such a paragon of poor design imo with all the frustrating mechanics available